I found this site a while back and it prolonged my marriage to my ADHD/OCD/Bipolar husband. Unfortunately I stopped coming here because it seemed better when I was taking all responsibility and giving him room to be a man with emotional/mental illness.
I'm a little angry.
I am partially responsible for that anger. I should have realized that a miracle didn't happen when our friend committed suicide and he suddenly became a participating spouse in our marriage. That was in May. By July he was back at his old tricks. I didn't come here, I didn't go to our marriage counselor. Instead I said the heck with it and lived my own life. I increasingly became more miserable.
In late August I told him I was unhappy and some things had to change: his hoarding, his being unreliable, etc. It stopped for maybe 4 weeks. Friday he blew off a $10 an hour job -- he's been unemployed 2 years; Sunday we fought; Monday he didn't come home (because he knows this upsets me and because he can't face reality), Tuesday I asked him to leave; he got very upset; he did spend the night here on the couch where he normally sleeps anyway and this morning I asked if we could talk rationally and calmly today after I got off work and he said yes; I come home and he's gone. He left his cell phone next to a Time mag article about the economy -- did I mention he's been unemployed for 2 years??? -- and locked up my bike in his storage place. Jeez I'm sure this makes no sense. He's pulling the classic I'll Punish Her For Making Me Upset Routine.
I am NOT responsible. I married a sick man and he is making me miserable and I have to save myself. I love him and I don't want to hurt him but what the _____????? He's 53. He acts like he's 10. I've raised my children and to be very very honest: I didn't particularly enjoy raising my own kids. I don't want to be his mother.
So why am I posting? If you love your ADHD spouse, keep coming here, keep going to counseling, keep getting help and stay in contact with spouses who are in the same situation. I know I made the right decision and yet I still feel miserable. It will pass, I'm sure. I'll go on with my life and he will find someone else to be his caretaker. It just sucks because he is the love of my life and I have to abandon him to save my own damn sanity.
I'm so sorry, Mylank. That
Submitted by FabTemp on
I'm so sorry, Mylank. That does suck.
I would be a bit more compassionate regarding your anger, though. Who wouldn't be made angry by those actions repeated over years? Look how little it takes to make your husband unreasonably angry and punitive. Imagine him putting up with someone like himself.
I still read the comments here, but for the most part I also feel burdened by the advice here. There's a lot here that holds the non-ADHD spouse responsible for everything and lowers expectations that the ADHD/ADD spouse will ever be responsible for anything. I don't need to feel in control of things so badly that I'll take on the blame for when my ADHD spouse fails - once again - to come through with a promise or fails to improve, or even trying to improve. I believe anger is the appropriate response.
I know for a fact that my ADHD spouse responds to no "gentle reminders", no amount of "reasoned" talks, no amount of explaining how much pain he puts me in. He responds to two things only 1) my hysterical crying (which motivates for about two days) and 2) my screaming at him day and night, to which he responds the most positively and longest lasting.
My ADHD spouse is divorced at this point. He just doesn't know it yet. I've been trying desperately to get my own plan of life into action - difficult with a 2.5 year old at home with no reliable help - and I just focus on what I need to do. I will include my husband in family plans, with which he will usually argue and complain and attempt to sabotage, but I don't predicate my participation in those plan on his participation. As soon as things are more settled in terms of my finances and my son is more independent, my husband will come home to an empty house. I don't threaten him with it, because I know it's years away and because I know he'll just "forget" that I told him anyway. I don't know the date of departure myself.
It does suck. I know. It sucks to know that someone who could have been a wonderful partner chose to surrender to chaos instead. It sucks to know that order and responsibility frighten them so much that they will willingly throw away their own families. just to stay as dependent as they are. I have realized that I cannot possibly love someone who would trash his own son's life just to stay in his bubble. I have come to realize that, despite all of my ADHD husband's claims to the contrary, HE could not possibly love either me or our son. If he did, he'd try to get better.
You will probably come to the same realization soon enough. What sort of "love" could this man possibly feel if he would so willingly trash something so good? How much "love" is involved in being so dependent on you, even for financial support? How much "love" could there be in something so petty as locking up your bicycle? If that's love, then I'm sure you want no part of it.
As for me, I read the comments here to help me remain focused on my life plan and eventual departure. If I were to get sucked into my husband's reality-which-isn't, I'd go right back to wasting years believing him that he actually loved me. When I read the advice and comments here, I come away with a different experience than the one you're expecting for most non-ADHD spouses. The constant blame on the non-ADHD spouse, the constant invalidation of our reasonable anger and the constant excuses from those with ADHD, all too willing to join on that blame parade, all serve to remind me that my husband is either lying or kidding himself. He doesn't love me and he never has.
So, yeah, I hear you loud and clear on how much that sucks.
What love means to someone with ADD
Submitted by Sueann on
I think your husband probably does love you. The problem is that they mean a different thing by love than the rest of the world does.
If I love someone I'll move heaven and earth for them. When my husband was diagnosed but the place where he was going could not give him medicine, I spent hours (on breaks at work, as we could not afford a home phone) calling places to find someone to see if they could treat him. When he decided working was for other people, I supported him. I didn't just feed and house myself but him too, and paid full price for his meds because my job does not offer insurance. That's what love means to me.
To my ADD husband, I think love means "warm fuzzies." It makes him happy to be around me. It would never OCCUR to him that because he loves me, he should make sure I have money or insurance for my meds for hypertension, or that, since I'm at great risk for falls, he shouldn't leave his shoes on the floor on my side of the bed for me to fall over. He doesn't relate love to actions at all.
We've been on this ADD journey for over 2 years now. I've concluded he'll never change, and it's up to me to decide if it's worth it to stay with him.
Thanks for your reply
Submitted by FabTemp on
Thanks for your reply Sueann. And thank you for your supportive words regarding the possibility that my husband actually loves me. I just can't agree.
As far as "love" goes, I'm sure a person with Narcissistic Personality Disorder can claim that they "love" someone. It means that they want that person to deliver something to them, such as high level financial support, some sort of arm candy, some sort of connections to glamourous or powerful people. The NPD individual does not love, really, they need and want.
Without having had it even assessed, I can be very sure that my husband does not have an NPD. That's not my point. My point is that the psychological issues that come with and, IMO, eventually overtake having ADHD seriously interfere with my husband's ability to "love" anyone. He's far too invested in being dependent on everyone else in his life except for financial support. To be involved in my husband's life at all is to run everything for him, save his being employed.
My husband's disability supposedly means that he cannot organize or plan anything - ever. Yet, he's an object oriented programmer - a job that is impossible to do at all if one cannot organize or plan anything - ever. (The entire process is nothing but categorizing and organizing bundles of data and planning how to direct a computer or server to go get data that fall into certain groups.) When it comes to anything that is of any importance to the running of this family however, my husband "cannot" plan or organize anything - ever. His inability to plan or organize anything is in direct proportion with the task's importance to me. As the importance to me goes up, suddenly so will his incompetence in the thing. I've lived a decade of this "coincidence" enough to know that this sudden "inability" is anything but.
That's why I could relate to Mylank's story. Her husband clearly flakes out the most - and in his case actually gets spiteful - whenever the task or conversation is very important to her. He seems to resent her needing anything from him so badly, that he'd actually plan and organize (two functions in which he is supposedly incapable - always) a direct sabotage of her transportation and/or recreation (locking up the bicycle) and even deliberately leaving his cell phone behind to leave her a message (another organization and plan) that he won't be reachable.
It's one thing to say that these people cannot connect actions with love - even when their demands of actions from others are seemingly endless. It's another thing to look at what are, indeed, actions on their part intended to sabotage those they supposedly "love".
For FabTemp
Submitted by Sueann on
I totally agree with you about Mylank's husband. That kind of spite shows more planning than my husband ever showed.
There are two things that stand out in a lot of these posts. There's a "that's the way I am and I can't change" mentality and a remarkable lack of interest in getting more in touch with the way most people run their lives, with mutuality and respect.
That's why I feel like I am never going to see any changes that matter to me. We've planned to go away for the weekend for a long time. It took him until last night to decide where he wants to go, and we still have no arrangements for the dog.
I guess that's what I get for marrying a man who, at 43, still lived with his mother. Now I'm filling that role.
right on the mark
Submitted by arwen on
Sueann, you've absolutely nailed how my husband has seen "love" for most of his life.
But don't totally give up hope. In the last few years, since we ended our separation, my husband has actually begun to do caring, thoughtful things for me. It's not as much or as frequent as I'd like, but it's clear it's something he is truly working on to improve.
I think the thing that made the difference is my expressing to him that it hurts me when he does thoughtless things and doesn't show his love for me. I had to express it in pretty graphic terms -- that it was a horrible, painful wound, that it made me feel like I was nothing to him except a meal service, and that it happened every day and the only way I could deal with it was to harden my own heart against him. It was more than just the words, it was the way I showed what it made me feel that got through. It made him feel pretty bad. He never understood before the harm that his neglect could cause. I reminded him of how bad he'd felt at times when his accomplishments at worked were overlooked, and then told him this was 100 times worse. He could understand that.
The problem we have now is that after hardening my heart against him for so many years, I find it difficult to soften it again. It's not that I'm afraid to risk the feelings, or that he'll stop showing affection and I'll be hurt again. Instead, it's more like I don't know how to remove the emotional blocks I put into place. It's like trying to erase a memory -- how do you make yourself forget it? I know how to improve my memory -- I have no clue how to make it worse! I hope it's something I'll figure out with a bit more time.
Sueann, I believe my
Submitted by newfdogswife on
Sueann,
I believe my husband's thoughts about love are the same. No need for actions only warm fuzzies. He had told me several times, before he was diagnosed with ADHD, that he didn't think he had ever loved me. That was a total shock to me. That's when I started asking questions about our life together and his thoughts on love, marriage, etc. Boy, what an eye opener. I think he finally realizes that "love" doesn't always have to mean "warm fuzzies" but it has taken him a long time to get there.
We've been on our ADHD journey for over 2 years, too. Our progress is very slow and some days my patience is tested to the max.
Read all of arwen's comments. She's been dealing with this disorder for a long, long time. Her input is remarkable.
all disabilities are burdens
Submitted by arwen on
FabTemp, I certainly agree with your view that an ADD spouse who doesn't try to improve deserves anger. I believe that there are plenty of things a person with ADD can be reasonably held accountable for, and should be. I don't think the non-ADD spouse deserves any blame for the ADD-spouse's failures.
That said, the fact remains that people with ADD have a physiological brain disorder that they cannot control any more than a blind man can make himself see. The meds help the ADD brain function more normally, just like certain treatments can help some blind people to see partially, but if the non-ADD spouse does recognize the remaining physiological limitations, I can't see any way to make the marriage ultimately work. Like any disability, ADD *is* a burden to the non-ADD spouse. That's just life. The non-ADD spouse who can't see or acknowledge that reality is living in just as much of a fantasy world as the ADDer.
I've always found the hardest part of dealing with my spouse's ADD is trying to determine what he can and can't control or change. It has taken me many many years to be able to recognize and understand this, by examining and comparing his behaviors, by talking with him to get a better understanding of his thinking process. This is something my husband did not have the skills to do years ago. Today, I think he probably could, but it would probably take him at least 20 times longer than I. The way I look at it, this is no different than if he wanted me to give our car a tune-up. Years ago, I didn't have the skills. Now, I could probably do it, but it would take me 20 times longer than him. I wouldn't expect him to get angry at me about it! And I don't think it's appropriate to get mad at someone with ADD for a lack of skills or slow performance with the unfamiliar. Now, does it make sense to get mad at him if over time he doesn't improve in his ability to know what he can and can't improve/change? Yes, probably, because it's an extremely important skill that we all need to develop, and so even if he finds it difficult to do, he should still undertake it. But at some point, he's going to reach a level where he's not going to be able to improve any further. Should I get mad at him then? What would be the point?
You say anger and hysteria is all your spouse responds to. I understand what you mean -- I've been there too, and it did absolutely no good. What did work was withdrawal. It got through to my spouse up when I withdrew my affection, when I failed to respond to his needs, when I refused to interact with him on his terms. This was a "natural consequence" of his ignoring my needs. Because it provoked a lot less of an emotional reaction from him than crying or screaming, he was then able to be open to discussion and reminders. (Those reminders were not necesssarily always "gentle" -- but at least they were not emotionally charged, and for my husband, that was extremely important.)
My husband often declaimed his love for me and my children, yet he did many things that hurt us. I couldn't understand it. It took me a long time to understand that he really couldn't see the harm he was causing until it was pointed out, and he couldn't remember it sometimes from one time to the next, because of the physiological limitations of his brain. How could he try to get better if he couldn't see that something was wrong, or remember what it was? We had to find ways to help him see for himself, and to remember it for future consideration. Basically, if I wanted him to get better, I had to help him acquire the skills and training he should have gotten when he was growing up, but didn't, because his undiagnosed ADD got in the way of learning it back then.
Railing against the realities can make you feel righteous and more powerful, which feel pretty good -- but it doesn't solve any marital problems. I know, I've done it, I've failed -- and then I started over, and learned, and succeeded. Today my husband and I still have some problems, but it is *way* better than it was 10 or 15 years ago. It was a lot of work. I admit, I probably wouldn't have done it if I'd known how hard it was going to be. But my husband *has* changed. He has become more responsible. He doesn't blame me for his problems. He shows his affection more frequently. He could not possibly have learned to do these things without strong, committed help from me. It was a burden. To me, my family was more important to me than making my life easier. But each person is different and has a different decision point. There's no right or wrong decision here.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that it seems to me that there are aspects of ADDers' behaviors that they could probably change or improve, and they deserve blame for it if they don't. And the non-ADD spouse certainly does not deserve any blame for the ADDer's behavior. But it also seems to me that ADDers don't deserve blame for those things they really can't control or that they lack the skills to improve. It's natural to want to blame *somebody* for what doesn't seem right, but sometimes it's actually nobody's fault. It's just life.
Yeah, it sucks. But it doesn't have to stay sucky. Getting away from sucky can be accomplished in a variety of ways, but in my experience, they all require a certain degree of recognition of the realities -- and the more you can distinguish between reality and wishful thinking, the better your result is likely to be.
ADHDer's are 90/10 at fault, maybe even 95/5...
Submitted by Dan on
Hello Arwen... I've read your comments and they are very helpful. Thank you. I'm 42year old man with ADHD, here is my background discussion thread.
http://www.adhdmarriage.com/content/find-volunteer-slapper-your-husband-and-reason
I agree with almost all your comments, the person responsible for ADHD marriage problems is the person with ADHD. Undiagnosed ADHD truly clouds a man's brain, the brain just couldn't see it was mostly me, I was wrongly thinking it was 50/50, my wife was thinking 90/10, which therefore did a lot of damage since neither of us wanted to budge and even give up even just 5 percentage points over the years. After 10+ years, not until 2 months ago, when I finally discovered I have ADHD, did I see the light (too late I may add, but that's another story in my discussion thread).
A comment I may make, it is true that ADHD men are 90/10 at fault, non-ADHD spouse still are 10%. Is that fair statement? In my case, during the last couple years, because I was unintentionally and unknowingly ignoring my wife and not filling her needs, she would... for lack of better way of putting it… nag. When an undiagnosed man with ADHD and minding his own business, is nagged enough during one day by an unknowing wife... it like smoking cigarettes in a fireworks factory... eventually a burning ash is going get to the blackpowder. Did the man's ADHD make her a nag? Likely YES... so maybe even 95/5 his fault, but bottom-line, nagging will set off an explosion from a ADHD'er and he'll say words to his loving spouse that nobody should ever say. Please don't set off the powderkeg. That's where I am today... I'm separated from my wife today, she tells me because of the terrible things I've said to her in the past. I admit it, okay it's my fault, and true... men fight dirtier than women. Men are naturally more aggressive fighters for thousands of years. But argument after argument after argument... I didn't start a majority of them... True, I was wrongly ignoring her needs, had my head in my laptop PC working instead of spending quality time her and was doing all the seemingly selfish ADHD things.... My fault...I was the inanimate powerkeg just sitting there, useless to her.... but I wasn't the one fuming tiny hot ashes. In hindsight… I agree 95% my fault for exploding, but some women can control their nagging more than other women and use other ways to express their feelings to the inanimate object they call their husband. It’s all a matter of circumstances. Male ADHD'ers are also pretty sensitive and remember… they still think it’s 50/50 if they don’t know they have ADHD in the first place, so when he hears a nag from his wife… it’s like watchout. It went like this in our house many times for years... After not yet doing or drifting away from something she asked for, I would say... "hey, I’m almost done finishing with my stuff, then I'll help ya... say… are you okay… what’s the problem?”, she’ll reply coldly… “oh, like I need to tell you again or write it out for you... just never mind!!”….. then I'm stunned at that cold response I didn't think I deserved at the time... and counter with verbs only men would think of… then Ka-BOOM!... let the arguing and huge fire begin. Bottom line advise from a ADHD’er myself…. Please get your ADHD husband some help, meds, therapy, counseling, exercise, get his mother on him (yes, let your kid's grandma help save the marriage), a written daily to-do list, or whatever… but please, please don’t nag or get huffy-puffy with him verbally, since he’ll always win in verbal battles (it’s not fair, but accept it, boys will be boys and men will be worse), but in the end nobody wins the war. I realize not nagging takes great patience and I understand it’s all a matter of circumstances how long patience can last. I admire so many women on this Website forum, including you Arwen, for saying it is not easy and saying it was a lot of work, but you still did it anyway. Your husband is more lucky or fortunate than he'll ever know.
whose fault
Submitted by arwen on
Dan, you ask "A comment I may make, it is true that ADHD men are 90/10 at fault, non-ADHD spouse still are 10%. Is that fair statement?" As with so many things, I have to say that each relationship is unique. While there are certain things that the people on this forum have in common, we also have many differences. This is not a "one-size-fits-all" kind of problem.
I'm also uncomfortable with the whole idea of assessing fault in this context. I was brought up a Roman Catholic, and I was taught that sinning required that you first have to know that something is a sin and then you have to do it anyway. I know that our legal system doesn't exactly work that way, but in life in general it's always seemed to me to be pretty reasonable to judge people's actions on the R.C. basis. So, when I apply that kind of philosophy to my husband's behaviors, for example, I have to ask myself whether he really understood he was doing something harmful or hurtful or bad in some other way, and is it reasonable to expect him to have known. If I find that he really didn't recognize the impacts of his actions, I can hardly blame him on that occasion. And because I know he has memory problems, I may also forgive it once or twice more, if it wasn't something really terrible or really important -- how can I blame him for what he really is trying to but can't remember? I do feel it's appropriate to blame my husband when he *isn't* trying, when he breaks agreements that we negotiate *and* reinforced with repetition/reaffirmation, when he is being deceitful, when he tries to "con" me. It's true that it has taken me a lot of time and effort to be able to determine when he's to blame and when he's not, and even now I misjudge on occasion, but being fair is extremely important to me, so I work pretty hard at it.
So, all that said, in my marriage, I would definitely not say he deserved 90% of the blame, and I only 10%. I brought my share of bad behaviors to our marital dynamic. My father had a really bad temper when I was growing up, and although he never abused my mom or us kids in any way, I learned at a young age the power of anger, and I brought that to my marital relationship when things went badly between me and my spouse. I'm impatient, and stubborn, and critical. Thank goodness my spouse has a long fuse and is a very easy-going guy!! Also, my spouse has an atypical sort of ADD -- in his family, all the men "grow out" of it during puberty and then "grow back in" to it around age 40. So my husband (who was not diagnosed until 15 years ago) didn't seem to be very ADD-like when I met and married him. I would say when we first began to have problems, it was really pretty much a 50/50 proposition. As time went on and his ADD began to resurface (unknown to us), his behaviors got more frustrating and erratic, but my responses to them got worse too, so I'd still say it was more like 50/50. It was only during the two or three years before his diagnosis, when he started having a lot of traffic accidents and tickets, that I would say his contribution to the problems changed. He was also experiencing serious memory problems during this time, and not only was he in complete denial about all of it, he blamed everybody but himself for whatever went wrong. He reverted to a lot of bad behaviors I found out from his mom he had exhibited as a child -- lying, hiding things he done wrong from me, making things up, and ignoring anything he didn't want to deal with. Even after he was diagnosed, and started medication and counseling, there were still a lot of these and other problems for several years. But even at his worst, I wouldn't say it was more than 80/20. These days with my husband, it's about 65/35 and getting better (we've both improved!).
Our son also has ADD (diagnosed in his teens, but not on meds since he graduated from high school), and I would say that the problems in his relationship with his steady girl are pretty close to 50/50 also. We also have a daughter who is in a longterm relationship with a young man with ADD (diagnosed in grade school, I think, and never on any meds), and again I'd have to say it's pretty close to a 50/50 proposition. I like to think (I hope, I hope) that both our son and daughter have benefitted from the mistakes my husband and I made in dealing with his ADD, and that they are experiencing a somewhat smoother road in their relationships as a result, despite the absence of meds.
Certainly, I have seen other relationships where it seemed that the ADD spouse contributed considerably more to the problems than the non-ADD spouse, and one or two where the ADD-spouse was a real bad actor (but in those cases, the ADD-spouse wasn't diagnosed until much later in life). And I have to confess that I have yet to see the relationship where the non-ADD spouse was more at fault than the ADD-spouse (although I have no doubt that there are some!). But as I said at the beginning, it really is a very individual thing. Some non-ADD spouses may be of outstanding character and admirably contribute little to whatever problems exist in the relationship, but plenty of us non-ADDers have our own special baggage that impacts the marital dynamic in undesirable ways.
P.S. I don't buy the idea that men fight dirtier than women. I definitely fight dirtier than my husband, and I've seen plenty of other women who do, too. Again, it's really an individual thing in the relationship!
P.P.S. My husband does think he is lucky to have me (well, most days! Some days I am not so nice as I wish I were, I still have to fight my temper demons even at this late date) -- a fairly recent development and one that I very much appreciate!
Good luck, be patient, keep at your efforts, they will bear fruit in time!
I agree each couple is different and thanks...
Submitted by Dan on
Thank Arwen... I agree... each household, each couple is unique and there are always exceptions to the rule... from 95/5 his/her fault or 51/49 his/her fault and everything in between for an ADHD family. And yes, even my wife's parents are exceptions. My wife grew up in a household where my mother-in-law is the strict, take no crap from anyone, ruler of her family and my father-in-law is a the easy going, lovable pushover. Whereas in my household growing up, my father was the firm ruler and my mother was the loving, gentle and forgiving. When I fell in love and married my wife, she was sweet and gentle like her dad, but over the years she changed over like her mom (for years I couldn't understand why she changed, but today I understand completely... because of my undiagnosed ADHD, I pushed her over) When I told this to my psychologist last week, he said... Dan, you're marriage had the double whammy.
I don't want to be just like my dad and never was, I want a find a medium in between my mom/dad, the best of each. I believe each generation should improve and move on from the last. Unfortunately, my wife told me, she'll never go back to the way she was, which reading between the lines, means she'll never be as sweet and lovable as the women I first fell in love with. The guilt I feel is I have ruined a once wonderful person... she truly was. I was once the luckiest man in the world, and I unconsciously had ADHD sneak in and ruin it. This is why I'm so willing to fight my own ADHD head-on and never let it ruin things again or harm me or my loved ones like it has so far.
Thank you again, I will try to be patient (patience, not a trait of ADHD), but will keep at my efforts (persistence, a trait of ADHD)... it will be tough.... but yes, hopefully we can bear fruit someday and our kids can learn and improve their future, their families and generations ahead.
How are you doing?
Submitted by Dazed and confused on
Hi Dan,
Thank you for saying this. It sounds like your marriage ended, I'm sorry to hear about that. I'm the non-ADD spouse trying to hang on to my husband, although we've now been separated for a year. He's not quite where you are, still in the blaming mode.
How are you doing now? It's been a long time.
Arwen, thank you for your
Submitted by FabTemp on
Arwen, thank you for your kind reply. It most certainly shows a lot of compassion towards my husband and a real attempt to understand where I'm coming from. I'm afraid, though, that I was misunderstood.
I don't fault my husband for needing to write everything down because he would never remember anything otherwise. I fault him for not doing so when he knows he needs to. I don't fault him for needing to set three alarm clocks in order to get up on time to help me the way he said he would. I fault him for not setting all three, but instead telling himself that "this time" isn't that important. I don't fault my husband for living in a two-tiered priority world of "Now" and "Not now", because he has no ability to prioritize beyond that. I fault him for always assigning my pain and tears to the "not now" column, while things like playing video games until 5 AM always fall into the "now" column.
These choices of his are not the result of ADHD. They are the result of his deep-seeded denial of how much his ADHD hurts everyone else in his life. They are the result of his refusal to seek psychodynamic therapy to get to the root of his myriad of emotional problems - partially, but not entirely borne of having lived a life with ADHD. Everything in my husband's world is an "I can't" approach, unless it means an easier life for him.
I tire of hearing how much having ADHD is like being blind or unable to walk, as I have read here many times. My current Governor is blind and one of the greatest Presidents ever seen in American history led the country through the Great Depression and WW II from a wheelchair. My husband has no business remotely approaching a position of tremendous responsibility like Governor or - perish the thought - POTUS. I am not asking a blind man to see. I am asking a blind man to get off his ass and learn how to read Braille and learn how to use a cane or a seeing eye-dog. Instead I have a blind man who is too emotionally crippled by the never-ending criticism of his equally blind father who spent his life cursing his blind son. As a result, my blind husband says "I can't ever read Braille" and "I can't ever use a cane" - because then everyone might know he's blind. It's so much easier to lean on your wife to read everything and see everything for you and sit there and whine and cry until she takes you by the hand to lead you through the world.
Because it's so much better a choice to comandeer her entire life, every waking hour and any happiness she could have than it is to learn how to read Braille.
That's not love. Not to me and not reasonably to anyone.
I agree
Submitted by Dan on
FabTemp... as someone with ADHD, you make good points and I agree with you. Your situation doesn't add up so far. You have amazing strength and I hope for the best for you. Take care.
the blind man
Submitted by wishannastar on
"I am not asking a blind man to see. I am asking a blind man to get off his ass and learn how to read Braille and learn how to use a cane or a seeing eye-dog."
I love that statement! We all have challenges that impact our lives. We have to learn to work with them to meet our needs/goals.
Sorry I misunderstood
Submitted by arwen on
FabTemp, I'm very sorry I didn't understand your post. I have been *exactly* where you are, I know what you are talking about, and I can really sympathize with your pain. In my opinion, your expectation that your spouse will set the three alarms, or that he will realize and accept that he won't remember without writing things down is perfectly reasonable and fair. I also am inclined to agree with you, based on your descriptions of your's husband behaviors, that psychodynamic counseling would probably be more beneficial to your spouse than behavioral counseling. Where my spouse is now, behavioral counseling is more in order, but in retrospect, I wish he had seen a psychodynamic counselor early on.
What I've said to my husband in these situations of "I can't" or denial, is that by trying to hide or excuse his disability, the only person he's fooling is himself. Anybody who would know about him getting counseling already knows he needs it, and anybody who wouldn't know about it doesn't matter -- and anybody who would know of his efforts to change would be glad to see an improvement and impressed by his courage to keep trying, and those who didn't know about the efforts might still see a change and like him better for it. I found it essential to keep exposing his attempts to hide or escape from reality to the clear light of the real world, and also make it clear that the world he lived in was not a faithful reflection of reality, and that the disparities between them might not seem harmful right this minute but contained the potential for great harm -- to him, to me, to our children -- by outlining the risks and consequences he could not see or believe. I had some actual experiences with him to bring to this process, which helped a lot. His counselor also reinforced these themes, which was also key.
In addition, it did my husband (and me!) a lot of good for him to hear a professional counselor tell him that his behavior was not normal. It was the kind of rude awakening an ADDer often needs in order to change his perception of his behavior and his world. Of course, I'd been saying it for years, but I was "just his wife", who from his point of view had an axe to grind. To have a professional counselor, who he trusted and would listen toi, say it very matter-of-factly was a real shock. I haven't seen anywhere in your posts whether you have attended any counseling with your spouse. It might be worthwhile to try that and raise this question with his counselor. Joint counseling might also give you some insights into your husband's unique character that can't be obtained by reading here or elsewhere. Attending a few sessions with your husband would also give you a better appreciation for the kind of counseling he is getting (there may be some psychodynamic aspects to what his counselor is doing) and/or an opportunity for suggesting where you think there are problems (or that some psychodynamic techniques would be helpful).
I also used to believe that my husband was making whiny, cowardly choices. I had been fooled by his coping mechanisms that hid his problems into thinking that he was an almost-normal person who just needed some discipline and to be less self-centered. It was only when I finally realized the much vaster extent of his lack of abilities, impaired learning and understanding, and sense of failure, and the combined physiological and psychological reasons for them, that we were able to usefully deal with his problems. This was not something my husband was able to express to me -- he really didn't know it himself -- we ended up discovering it together, through a lot of painful exploration. Since that point, mostly my role has been to *identify* root issues to him (and in way that ensures I won't have to do repeatedly), and to check periodically that he is practicing his new behaviors, to reinforce the learning. Occasionally he has also needed a "wake-up call" about some persistent problem.
Finally, I must cast doubts on the view that ADDers make most of their bad behavioral choices on purpose. In my experience (and not just with my husband), the ADDer typically is a *lot* less conscious of their thinking, emotions and behaviors than you or I. Unless they have been taught to examine their consciences and behaviors from childhood, they usually have very little idea (beyond the superficial) of why they think or do anything, or of the consequences of their choices. The more I was able to help my husband (and son, and others in my husband's male lineage) to illuminate their unconscious or subconscious "thoughts", and to see the natural consequences, the better choices they were able to make. You believe that your husband is consciously refusing to see the harm he is doing. Of course, it could be so -- but in my experience, the ADDer is not conscious of such thoughts. It very likely *is* actively going on -- in the immature, *subconscious* mind -- because a lifetime of experiences is telling your husband that if he denies it long enough, it will either become false or go away. But since your husband is thinking immaturely, it cannot occur to him that it could go away because you and your son might leave -- from his limited, conscious, perspective, you would not have good reason to do so. Only by illuminating such subconscious processes, and bringing them to the consideration of the conscious mind, was I able to break this destructive tendency in my husband. It wasn't easy, I pretty much had to drag him kicking and screaming, because I unfortunately still brought a lot of anger and impatience. Undoubtedly someone of better character than I would have been more successful more quickly.
It seems clear from your posts that you feel that you are having to do more than your fair share of the work in your marriage. You are!!! But your husband probably really can't see that it is as inequitable as it is. The way he treats you *isn't* love, you are absolutely right -- but I very much doubt he knows what love really is. If you want that to change, you may need to apply your efforts in a different, and hopefully more effective, way. What most ADDers at your husband stage are in most need of is encouragement, direction, and training, pretty much in equal parts. I didn't understand that for a long time. I thought my husband just didn't care to be a good person. When I came to understand that he didn't have the first clue of *how* to be a good person, and started to address the roots of the problem instead of constantly applying bandaids, things got better. Oh, it was still hard work! But there was also definite progress. It takes time for the ADDer to unlearn a lifetime of negative lessons and bad habits, and learn new, better ones -- that includes overcoming the habit and lessons of failure, first. My husband now *is* a good person, because he has learned what being a good person really means, and how to be one. And now, I'm loved more and better than I was when we were married. Of course, as I've said elsewhere, I don't think I would have stuck it out if I had known years ago how hard it was going to be. On the other hand, I didn't have the collective insight and experience of this website and other resources to draw on -- I can't help thinking it would have been considerably quicker and less painful if I had.
Arwen - many thanks
Submitted by FabTemp on
Arwen, once again, I appreciate you taking the time to respond as comprehensively as you have. I most certainly identify with what you have written here. Unfortunately, it's also leading me to despair. What I see in that advice is that I have to sacrifice yet another decade of my life organizing my husband's most basic life tasks while - for yet another ten years - my dreams all get put on hold. I can't possibly run his life and mine all while waiting and hoping that it all works out...someday.
A lot of what informs my despair and sense of urgency to remove my son from this situation is my own childhood history. If you were to ask me if my mother ever loved me, I would tell you that my intellectual answer would be that she had to have, I guess. My emotional answer would be "no". I spent many years regarding my mother as a narcissist, though not someone with full blown NPD. Having a conversation with her is impossible. She's interested in nothing you have to say, she just talks over you and interrupts you at every point at which she wants to bring the conversation back to herself. She never kept up the house - because it was "too hard" for her to do - even though she pretty much does nothing productive all day. We never went on day trips or did art together or played games, because it all too taxing on her to take herself away from the television and, alternatively, her bookkeeping. The latter was and still is done to excess, taking up entire days. She's not obsessed with money. She's not obsessed with the things money can buy. She's obsessed with tracking money, to the point of keeping separate books for each item of household budget and keeping track of how much money she saved in a month. Her home was once loaded with envelopes of budget savings collected over decades. My sister forced her to find them all and deposit them in an account. It was over 50,000 dollars. That came solely because, like everything else in my mother's life, someone else has to handle it - because she "can't".
The long and short of it was, I spent my childhood shunted to the side over my mother's obsessions and/or her lack of attention. I lived the first half of my life hearing her blame me (and my sisters and my father) for every short coming in her life and any time anything went wrong for her - which was nearly every day.
Yes..I now know what this sounds like. I will never know if my mom has ADHD or ADD, because there's a snowball's chance in hell that she'd ever test for it. My husband strongly suspects it, but prefers to not talk about it, because he knows that if I were convinced that such is what I suffered through, I'd leave with our son tomorrow and he'd never even know where we were. I know all too well just how painful and devastating a childhood spent this way is. I know what it does to a child's self-esteem and what it does to any hope of their future. I also know that, at least with my mom, no one could ever bring up any issue of responsibility to her - ever. She collapses into a frenzy at any criticism. She blames everyone else around her. She denies. She lies. She clamps up.
Kind of like my husband does whenever I stress the importance of psychodynamic therapy in his treatment.
A lot of hard work to get him to the point of being a person who doesn't go around destroying everyone in his life? How much MORE hard work do I have to do for the sake of a disorder I never had? And worse, how much more of my son's life do I have to expose him to a father who will "forget" anything that is ever important to our son? How much of my son's childhood must be spent having his sense of self utterly destroyed by his father's disorder that he refuses to treat? Do I have to do all of this hard work running his life for the next 5 years? 10 years? 15? Then it will finally "click" for him? That's too late. That's a destroyed childhood for my son, just like mine was.
I could do all of this hard work to get my husband on track and remind him of all he has to do - all the while I get punched repeatedly by his negligence. I just won't. The cost is far too high. I have already heard from my husband how he "couldn't" do anything to help me prepare for our son's first two birthdays. By the time the third comes up and my husband still "doesn't know how" to hang streamers or "can't" set out children's cake plates, my son will HEAR him and SEE him doing nothing and ditching something that will be then, very important to our son.
I already do the hard work of keeping my husband involved in our lives solely because I HAVE to until I can get out of here. The alternative is that our son will lose both of us all day long while I place him in day care for longer than 8 hours a day due to the job I'd have to get to support the two of us. (Counting on an ADHD'er to send child support is sheer financial suicide.) However, if I see that my hard work of kicking my husband's ass into gear of giving a damn about what is important to our son has failed too many times, I will have to take that alternative. Losing us both for all day is a world better than the permanent damage his father will do to him if I find I can't protect him from it. As I said, I will never know if my mom has ADHD, but what my husband has done to me for the ten years we've been married sure feels like what she did to me through my childhood. At the very least, it is only a matter of time before my son gets hurt by my husband in the exact same way I am every day.
So, again, thank you. But I don't care to engage in any more hard work of running his life and helping him take care of what is really his responsibility at the very, very high cost of my son's self-esteem. My life has already been destroyed by a disorder I don't even have. I'll be damned if it takes out my son's life too.
I understand how you feel
Submitted by arwen on
FabTemp, I understand perfectly why you would make the choices you are contemplating. Again, as I've said, if I'd known how much work it was going to be, I probably would have bailed out of my marriage. I felt I didn't have any alternative but to stay. My husband's parents *still* don't believe he has ADD -- at the time I was in your present position, they tended to see me as at best misguided and probably more like evil, and they would have moved heaven and earth to make sure my husband got partial custody of our kids in a divorce situation. The only people who would have testified to my spouse's ADD problems would have been my parents and our children, so I couldn't be sure that a family court judge wouldn't discount their testimony as biased. Since my husband had already proved life-threatening to our children in numerous situations through his inattention and incaution, I felt that for their protection I couldn't allow them to ever be under his sole supervision again. If I could have been certain to get sole custody, it's very unlikely I would have hung around.
The only other consideration that weighed on my mind was the sobering information from our counselor that there would very likely be negative impacts on our son. I was very concerned about the bad model that my husband was providing for our son, and thought it would be better for him to be away from his father as a result. But the counselor pointed out that statistically, the odds are very much against a healthy emotional development for a boy without a father, either -- our son also has ADD, and the chance of him ending up in a Junvenile Home seemed alarmingly high. Our son has always been a big kid, and at the time I was making the decision about leaving or staying, he was already as big as I was -- I knew I wouldn't be able to physically control him alone if I had to in another couple of years. So I determined instead to make his father's failures object lessons to my son. We discussed both his and his father's ADD a lot. Our son got regular counseling as well. As a result, our son has not exhibited many of his father's behaviors. (That's not to say that he doesn't have any problems -- but most of them stem from the fact that he has eschewed medication since he graduated from high school, and hasn't really figured out how to cope with some of the problems that involves.) I don't think anyone in our family would judge that his dad *ruined* his life. Made it harder, sure, but not intolerably. So, I don't think it's necessarily automatic that your husband will hurt your son the way your mother hurt you. [An aside -- obviously I don't know your mother any more than your husband, but I would hesitate to presume that they have the same disability just because they exhibit similar behaviors. It's not unusual for ADD to spawn various neuroses (that's part of why adults who are diagnosed with ADD also usually need counseling!), but so do other disorders. Their similar behaviors may indicate that they have similar neuroses, but it really says nothing whatever about the root disorder(s) that may have caused the neuroses and behaviors to develop.]
Actually, to be absolutely honest, I think *my anger* did more harm to our son than his dad's ADD did -- something you might want to think about, since you seem pretty angry. I understand that your son is much younger than mine was, and that gives you more flexibility than I had. More power to you! But I would also like to point out that your son is approaching the age where long-term memory begins to be retained. To minimize the impact to your son, you should probably consider making a final decision about your marriage fairly soon -- these are things that you would probably ideally discuss with a specialist in children's counseling, so you can make the best choices.
Please understand that when I post these messages, I generally am not trying to persuade anyone to any particular course of action. My primary motive is to share what I have learned, and suggest things I think in retrospect I might have done better, so that people who read my posts can make sound, *informed* decisions rather than hasty or ignorant choices that may come back and bite them. (Occasionally I do urge people who seem to be in very dangerous situations to protect their children by some specific action, but that's the rare exception.) Neither the ADD spouse nor the non-ADD spouse deserves the special hell that adult ADD can create, and having been through it, I'd like to do what I can to spare others (either with or without ADD) whatever pain can be avoided. As a mother who was probably over-protective of her children, I know that if I'd been forced to choose between my husband and my kids, my kids would have won in a heartbeat, despite the fact that I loved (and now love again) my husband. As a woman with dreams and ambitions of her own, I wouldn't have wanted to give them up for a husband who didn't want to try (although I gave them up for my son). As a person who honestly examines her conscience, I knew that I had made mistakes that contributed to the problems I was facing, and I needed to take the appropriate responsibility for them (not all the blame! but not none of it, either). I know what I would have done as a result of all these considerations -- but I don't have answers for anybody else because everybody's different.
There is one thing that I would urge upon you -- not to look upon your life as destroyed, no matter what choices you ultimately make. That kind of bitterness cannot help you and would probably hurt your son. You still have time and plenty of options in your life. Your marriage may have hurt you, it may be a setback to your dreams, but a wonderful life is far from irretrievably lost. You sound like you have the determination to make your life, and your son's life, whole and sturdy and rich. Again, it will take hard work, but it sounds like you are willing to put in that effort. Good luck!
What an awesome analogy
Submitted by Dazed and confused on
I couldn't agree with you more on this one, my husband is the same and had that same father.
How are you doing now?
Moral Liability
Submitted by at_the_crossroa... on
Fabtemp, I can see your point, I can share your consternation too, and I appreciate very much to read all the other posts too, it gives me so much to reflect upon. But I think that verbal taking of responsibility is not enough, it is too easy, when nothing improves, moral liability is needed.
In my value system, a person in a committed relationship is not only responsible for what she/he does, but also liable, not only materially, also morally.
I took it for granted, that my SO, with ADD in denial, would agree with me on this, else I would not have got involved with him.
After some major emotional blows (more in another post:
http://www.adhdmarriage.com/content/lowering-my-own-standards-accomodate... ) I have reached a state, where my reactions to any unpleasant behaviour of his are outbursts of frustration and me loosing my temper too easily. In his perception, that makes me as 'defective' as he feels labelled by my suggestions of his ADD. I consider him liable, that means that as he caused my bad state, he has to blame my outburst on himself. I cannot, neither rationally nor emotionally, forgive him anything, until he acknowledges and accepts his liability.
The following is my subjective personal opinion at this moment, though of course I do not claim any of this to be valid to others.
A person with ADD might have a very hard time with impulse control and distraction. That does not deactivate their intelligence. They have a brain not less capable than any non-ADD person of the same IQ. They are capable to comprehend values like responsibility and liability, and the necessity of agreements upon the meaning and obligations of commitment. They are capable to judge people morally and to know the difference between selfishness and a nonselfish, fair exchange between needs. They are even capable to evaluate behaviour, - in theory!, but they just never apply any of this upon themselves. They get nasty, when someone else dares to apply such standards.
If somebody is selfish, ADD or not, and he has no value system, that tells him: "Monitor your own behaviour, selfishness is not acceptable, there needs to be a fair exchange between giving and taking", then the partner is bound to suffer. For selfish people, ADD or not, a partner is a utility, not someone, who needs and deserves care for her/his subjective wellbeing.
Selfishness determines, if an ADD person burdens others with the consequences of his affliction or strives to spare others by taking the burden upon himself as much as possible.
As long as a selfish person has no scruples, but feels ok about herself/himself, there is very little hope for their partners to stop suffering.
Probably ADD youngsters are less perceptive to develop a value system by being less influenced by their social environment, so that ADDs may more often stay stuck in childish selfishness.
Therefore my core problem at this moment is the evaluation, if my ADD SO is a hardcore, unchangeble selfish person, or if he is stuck in immature selfishness, so that there is a chance that he awakens to have a value system of accepting non-selfishness, obligations, responsibility and liability as a guidance for his own behaviour.
Willful ignorance and denial are strategíes of selfishness. Around a hardcore selfish person, they are stone walls with no door. Around an immature ADD, they might be walls of earth, that can be shovelled and washed away.
Would my ADD SO ever accept his liability for my reactions to his hurting me, I would know to have gone through the wall. So far, I am outside with no hope and my head has bumps from running against a hard wall.
Accepting liability means to me the readiness to make amends, even when those amends are the taking of blame upon himself instead of blaming me. Maybe blame is not such a good word in this context, maybe it should be neutrally the attribuition of cause.
Felt obligations to make amends are a deterrent against repetition, so once he accepts liability, I could have hope, that his behaviour would be less painfull to me in the future.
Unselfish acceptance of his liability would help me heal and would empower me to try to control my own outburst and tempers, and have more patience and forgiveness for what he really cannot avoid doing. As long as he is selfish, I have neither motivation nor energy left to one-sidedly attempt to improve my own behaviour, while he continues to hurt me.
Ever ask your ADHD spouse why they love you?
Submitted by bellajovi on
Reading some of the comments in this thread reminded me of the times when I would be so frustrated or angry with my ADHD husband that I would ask not if he still loved me but Why did he love me? The answer is always "Because you take care of me". That's what my kids say when I ask them why they love me.
I guess the answers I want (or need) to hear are the things I would say to him "Because you are a great person" or "You are dedicated/hardworking", "Your kind/gentle/loving". Those are the reasons I used to love him for, unfortunately alot of those traits are no longer there. My husband can only see the big picture, I TAKE CARE OF HIM. That is how he sees love.
But it doesn't go both ways. If he defines love as taking care of someone, how can he possible "love" me? He doesn't take care of me. Not emotionally, financially or physically. I always have to ask for things to be done several times, things that he should be able to do just to help me out, a way to show he loves me. I'm not talking gifts or flowers, I'm talking taking the dog for a walk without having to be told 5 times or even just comprehending that the dog needs to be walked every day, so do it. Make me dinner once in a while-even a cheese sandwich would be appreciated. Clean the house or maybe just the bathroom. Do something that benefits both of us, not just him.
Does anyone else feel this way?
Sorry for the rant- helps to vent sometimes.
Why they love you
Submitted by Jeannie on
I never asked my ex-husband why he loved me, but after reading your response, I feel he might have said the same thing. I did ask him many times why he married me when he wasn't ready to commit to a relationship...when he would be gone all of the time spending time with someone else (male or female) while I was alone. He never seemed to grasp that I needed company, too..and specifically his company.
Your note makes me very sad because I, too, craved for him to say just one nice thing to me. I would see notes he had written to other women telling them how wonderful they were, how beautiful they were, encouraging them, building up their self-esteem. Now, these aren't women who are prettier than I am or better than I am. They were just women who had caught his eye for the day/week/month. They could be real people. They could be pictures on a website where the women (if there was truly a real woman behind that naked picture) wouldn't even respond to him unless he paid money. He would obsess on these women who in his mind were out there waiting to meet him.
Before I knew that he was being unfaithful (or attempting to be unfaithful), I would do what I could to build up his ego. I would tell him how handsome he was, what a great guy he was, how everyone liked him. I would do this especially when I would see he was having a rough time. When he got a new truck, I told him how nice it was and asked him if it was a "chick magnet" in a teasing manner. Little did I know that he would take this to heart and use it to try to pick up women online using the picture of him in front of that truck as a supposed lure.
I encouraged him to help around the house by telling him how much I appreciated a task he completed. I don't remember him even once in all of our 25+ year marriage thank me for doing a task around the house. It seems the encouragement was pretty much one-sided. Not that he never told me I was beautiful or paid me complements...just that those times were few and far between and dwindled away the longer we were married and the more he went into his own little fantasy world where all of the women wanted him.
Being married to (and even divorced from) an ADHD person can be so incredibly sad and confusing. I don't think I will ever really fully understand the lack of empathy and care towards your significant other and how people can just turn off their feelings for someone they have known for so long.
what did I do, to make you hate me so much.
Submitted by Dan on
Hello, my ADHD discussion thread is here: http://www.adhdmarriage.com/content/find-volunteer-slapper-your-husband-and-reason
As an undiagnosed ADHD man until I was 42 years old, I didn't know the problem I was causing my wife either. My wife use to ask me, "what did I do, to make you hate me so much?" I didn't hate her, I love my wife, but I just didn't know why she was equally bad towards me. Our marriage was in a dense cloud for years. So our troubles went on for years as I wrongly thought our problems were equal 50/50, even though it was more like 90/10 my fault. A man not knowing he has ADHD is very hard to get thru to, 99% impossible actually. I can now finally understand why my wife thought I hated her, I was impossible to get to for years, but I finally saw the light, like a nuclear flash! I know I'm a good person, devoted to help and keep my family together, never been lazy, always work hard, respect everyone regardless of gender, do my laundry, get kids dress when I'm with them, non-materialistic, etc.... ADHD'er have good traits too, please remember.
So reading your comments about your husband almost proud and flaunting openly to be a chick magnet, I think that is atypical, unusual, and NOT a ADHD trait. Please don't generalize or group all ADHD men into this type of behavior your husband displays. Maybe your husband has ADHD, but bottomline, based on what you wrote... he is just a jackass and deserves divorce, he's a bad apple. Period. Many ADHD men do NOT deserve a divorce once they discover, accept and want to fix their ADHD. Many ADHD men truly have hearts, love their wives dearly but mentally have trouble showing it and are good apples with a serious flaw, the same as lot of good apples with cancer, diabetes, blindness or other issues their working to overcome. Thank you.
My husband isn't a cheat. I
Submitted by FabTemp on
My husband isn't a cheat. I can have very little trust in my husband for most things in life, but one of the few things I can trust is that if he wanted to be someone else, he wouldn't have married at all. So, I can't contribute anything here but sympathy to the people who have to deal with a chronic cheat. I can also say I agree with you, Dan, that chronic infidelity is NOT connected to ADHD or ADD. It's a result of lasting immaturity and huge character flaws.
I'm just posting here to respond to Dan's report of what his wife would ask him. I still do ask my husband the same thing in those very words. "What did I do to make you hate me so much?"
It makes little sense that it is anything but a seething, if subconscious, hatred. I obviously can't speak to your marriage or the issue there, Dan. But in my husband's case, his ADHD is coupled with so much emotional repression, rage and serious psychological issues stemming from his childhood and youth (ADHD related and otherwise), that I cannot come to any other conclusion.
OK, so I'm not the mother who threw him to the wolves in dealing with a hyper-critical, outrageously insecure and petty father (whom, I'm convinced, also has some form of ADHD or ADD). OK, so I WON'T drop everything in our son's life to cater to my husband's never-ending passive aggressive ways of making it all about himself. Hell NO, I won't do that. It's not my problem that such is how his parents chose to act. So, it's not our son's problem that it bugs my husband so much that I won't act the same way they did.
My husband needs to get himself into psychodynamic therapy (not the next-to-useless behavioral therapy he sticks with) and come to terms with his anger at the right people. He won't, so he attempts to sabotage any action I take to make my son's life more organized, future and goal oriented and more joyous. (The sabotage, BTW, takes a lot of planning and organization to enact - two skills my "disabled" husband supposedly doesn't have - ever.)
Yes, in my husband's case, it's hatred - of me - for trying desperately to make our son's life better than what our husband is determined to make of our lives.
I can relate
Submitted by Ann2222 on
Jeannie,
I can so relate to both of your posts. The lack of empathy and caring are hard for me to grasp as well. My ex-husband( married 7 years...divorce finalized 2 months ago) basically started his disconnect when our 2nd child was only 2 months old. Although in hindsight he started disconnecting long before that. Since the divorce he has moved his new girlfriend into our old home...the only home my 2 daughters ever new. He has taken the woman to the church that all of our extended family goes to with my 2 girls. All the things he is doing are so incredibly painful and I can not understand how he can not see that. He too suffers from a severe lack of empathy and it is confusing and sad. I miss the man I used to know...or thought I knew. Where did he go? I have made great strides in the last 2 years since everything fell apart but some days I feel like I will never get over this huge mess that has been made of my life. I feel I am just existing from day to day and hour to hour. I miss my old life..."our old life" even though looking back it basically revolved around him. I had no life really except to work and take care of the children..oh yeah and put out all the fires he was making. He still is not treated for his disability and I pray that it will one day happen so that he can really participate in his childrens life. While we were separated he did not take our children on an overnight visit one single night claiming he had no where to take them because he was staying with a friend. Come to find out he was living with a woman and has now moved her into the old home. So basically he left all the responsibility to raise the children on me. Now that he finally has a place to stay, he has another woman there. I feel like he has played a cruel joke on me. It is very painful. I feel your pain and everyone elses on here. Hang in there.
I understand you completely
Submitted by Lost1972 on
My ADD spouse very often says that he loves me, but I experience that as the "warm fuzzies", because it never reflects in doing something that will benefit me or both of us, as you said. It is all about him.
I've often said to my spouse, that it is strange how much he requests of me but doesn't make any demands towards himself.
I see, said the blind man
Submitted by Dan on
I always found this quip, humorous ... "I see, said the blind man". A man with ADHD will say many things (remember, we have a lot of things running thru our head at once). What matter is does the man REALLY acknowledge to himself what he's saying? Does he know himself that he has ADHD? Before I was diagnosed with ADHD, I also made plenty of promises I wanted to keep, but just couldn't. (We over promise, under deliver). The same way a blind man would say he can see, but truly he can't. Does the man know he has ADHD (blind) and now will accept and fix his problems... or neglect and continue to hurt the marriage? That is the big difference the ADHD man can do for a marriage. After diagnoses... if he shows REAL effort to change his ways... give him a window to prove his worth... if he doesn't show effort during that window, then perhaps he's a lost cause and wants ADHD to beat him, don't let him take you down with him.
warm fuzzies
Submitted by LeeAnonymou on
My husband has outright told me that he holds me to a higher standard than he does himself.
Last night, after I came home from a long trip, husband kissed me on the cheek and said, "Boy, I missed you. I'm going out to the court to play basketball for an hour. See you later." He spent the entire weekend out of the house with his phone off, to the point of leaving my 15-year-old-son to find a place to spend the night because he couldn't find his dad and couldn't get a ride home.
But I'm the one acting crazy. I'm the one who has emotional problems because I can't stand the lying, the new "I can go where I want; Dad does," attitude that's developed in my son, and the fact that no one in my house cares if I'm around or not except my youngest son, who doesn't have much of a choice in the matter. If I leave, no one will show up to take care of him.
I hate my life right now. Yeah, I matter--- as long as I'm taking care of the crap no one else wants to do and don't argue about it.
Over promises, under delivering
Submitted by Dan on
That sounds like a terrible thing to be in and no way to live. I feel for you and your son, and it perhaps sounds like he's neglecting a child... don't know the facts. I made this post http://www.adhdmarriage.com/content/i-am-not-responsible#comment-4979 and maybe your husband unfortuately is simple a bad apple, cannot ever be polished up, or don't ever want to.
There are good, smart men with ADHD that do stupid things.... and there are bad, stupid men that happen to also have ADHD. One can be helped, one cannot. You need to find out which is the case, then decide on what is best for your children and yourself.
double standard is totally unacceptable
Submitted by arwen on
Lee, my husband used to apply double standards all the time -- but he was not aware that he was doing it! If he had ever told me that he held me to a higher standard than he did himself, I think I'd have slugged him.
This attitude is 100% completely insupportable, immoral and *abusive*. I refused to play that kind of game even when my husband wasn't aware of what he was doing. What I did in those situations was to only hold myself to the same standard that my husband held himself to, i.e. mirror his behavior for him. If he didn't like it, tough. I wasn't going to do one iota more until he did, and I was going to enjoy myself just as much. Sometimes that had some minor impacts on our kids, but it usually didn't take all that long to get the point across (and I'd tell them exactly why I was behaving the way I was, which brought their censure down on him for being unfair, as well). He'd be pettish and annoyed at first, but when I showed no signs of budging, occasionally even for days on end, he'd finally re-open the topic. It took a few years overall (you have to be determined! you have to be persistent!), but I finally cured him of applying a double standard. I haven't had this problem in many years now. If I were faced with your husband's attitude, I'd go on strike.
I have always thought this was a peculiarly male problem that ADD just intensifies. I'm sure there must be women somewhere who behave this way, but I've never met one in my life -- yet I've met all kinds of men who do, including plenty who don't have ADD. They are all moral cheats, and if they will not reform, I have no use for them whatsoever.
why do we love them?
Submitted by wishannastar on
A few recent posts inspired me to share my thoughts about the topic of why our add spouses love us.
My husband often tells me he loves me. He also tells me I'm a co-dependent, selfish, guilt-inducing, pleasure-sucking vampire. So I've asked: if all that is true, why do you love me? He says because I'm funny or I'm easy to be with or something equally nebulous.
Unlike an earlier poster, I wish he did acknowledge all that I do to keep our home running as smoothly as possible -- that I take care of him.
Have you ever read about the four or five love languages? We all give and perceive love differently.
Like Lost1972, the warm fuzzies, the I love you because you're easy to be with ... doesn't convey appreciation for what I do or who I am, only his appreciation that I leave him alone so he can do whatever he wants and of course, what he wants never includes doing something with or for me.
Given that, lately instead of asking him why he loves me, I ask myself: why do I love him?
I agree
Submitted by Dan on
I see your points and agree with you, if he doesn't show effort during the windows of opportinity you have given him, then perhaps he is sadly a lost cause and his clouded ADHD mind has won over his heart and soul. He lost to himself, you didn't. He's going to lose a good women, as all who are already on this Web site forum, proves truly... YOU are good and caring. It's sad or hard but so helpful to read all these stories from everyone. Thank you and I wish you all the best.
thanks
Submitted by wishannastar on
for understanding what I said.
It's important to me to be honest: I have faults, I don't know that I consider myself a "good woman" but I do think that I am a woman who really tries hard to be the best partner I can.
And both of us lose.
Ours is not to question why..or is it?
Submitted by gratitudeiskey on
"doesn't convey appreciation for what I do or who I am, only his appreciation that I leave him alone so he can do whatever he wants and of course, what he wants never includes doing something with or for me.Given that, lately instead of asking him why he loves me, I ask myself: why do I love him?"
Wow, wishannastar, you sure said a mouthful with that statement right there. There is so much time that my husband and I spend apart. I put our child to bed alone most nights while he's out in his shed doing endless projects or down on the computer. I may get an occasional "I was going to watch a movie if you want to join me" or he will come up and lay on the bed and watch TV with me. Granted, we are in a place where he questions his desire to be married to me and says he no longer does and doesn't love me either....so this muddy's the water a bit. BUT...I think even that part of the equation stems from ADHD. He believe we shoud feel like we felt when he was hyperfocused prior to marriage and i can't get him to understand that, (1) marriage and love doesn't feel like that after 5 years and (2) he needs that feeling because his ADHD trait believes that how it feels to be in love. Well, for that matter, movies, books and television and Hallmark cards tell him that too.
So, let me say this.....during our wedding we had something read from Captain Correlli's Mandolin. It said "Love is a temporary madness. It erupts like an earthquake and then subsides. And when it subsides you have to make a decision. You have to work out whether your roots have become so entwined together that it is inconceivable that you should ever part. Because this is what love is. Love is not breathlessness, it is not excitement, it is not the promulgation of promises of eternal passion. That is just being in love which any of fool can do. Love itself is what is left over when being in love has burned away, and this is both an art and a fortunate accident. Love has roots that grow towards each other underground, and when all the pretty blossom have fallen from their branches you will find that you are one tree and not two.
My issue is that my "roots" are tangled with his and parting from him is inconceivable because I do LOVE him. I am able to seperate the man I married from his hurtful actions. I've only learned to do this in the past few weeks. The reason I say this is my issue is because he doesn't feel this way about me. I am optional in his life. However, he makes no attempt to leave and has said nothing about divorce in over a month.
I miss him more than i can convey. Living with someone that I have to love from a distance, on his timetable and his way, is almost maddening. Sometimes I don't think the answer is if I love HIM enough to stay but it's figuring out if I love myself enough to leave. This is very simplistic in light of a 4 year old who also weighs very heavily in the mix. I want her to have a loving home and love being modeled correctly for her. I think we do "ok" in that regard because that is so little fighting and a very strong friendship between us. But she never sees him hug or kiss me. She never sees him hold my hand in the car or while we are walking. She sees us doing little to nothing together. I still feel that this is better than being juggled from house to house and splitting holidays always mourning the parent that isn't there. I feel for all of us who are endouring this. I really wish there was an easy answer.
We love them because we allow ourselves to
Submitted by Tweetiebird on
Hi wish,
I hear you! LOUD AND CLEAR! But sometimes love is not enough. Just because you take care of someone doesn't mean that they will acknowledge you. I found that out with my love. We aren't together anymore. I refused to be in a relationship where I was doing all the work. I may as well have been on my own. I am thankful that I didn't have children with him as I know it is much more complicated with a whole family in the mix. But I wonder to myself if I would have made the same decision. My ex boyfriend became violent because of his frustration with ADD, depression and anxious. I don't think I would want my child to be around that. And perhaps not all ADDers are like mine but I think undiagnoised ADD can get to this point.
I still love my boyfriend. I probably always will but he's not someone who is respectful to me. Why would I put up with bad behaviour from others, strangers, other family members? Because why? I think at the end of the day you need to realize that yes you may be co-dependant. I am. But I can also change that in me, address my inferiority complex. I'm just as good as anyone else but I don't have to push others down to prove it. And I'm really the only one who can make myself happy.
Regarding the codependance, read Codependency No More by Melody Beattie. It gave me some understanding of how to deal with my own and go see a personal therapist. Think of yourself first for once. Take pride that you are doing the best that you can and take care of yourself. Let him take care of himself. He might not like it but tough. He's an adult too! Let him take responsibility for his behaviour. You don't have to be mean about it but you'll find that he might actually do the things you want without having to tell him. Show by example if you can but taking care of you. This worked for me when my ex was open to it and we were happy for a time. Unfortunately it took him too long to figure out that he should take care of his ADD before I'd had enough. He may or may not figure it out on his own. He's told me that he feels lost without me. Does that make me feel any better? not really. It makes me realize that I was doing too much for him and not enough for me. Now I can.
Don't take abuse, verbal, emotional and especially physically. Walk away when that happens. I did and it helped me separate myself from the bad behaviour. You don't deserve to be abused. EVER.
"He also tells me I'm a co-dependent, selfish, guilt-inducing, pleasure-sucking vampire. So I've asked: if all that is true, why do you love me? He says because I'm funny or I'm easy to be with or something equally nebulous."
This is manipulation. He wants you to take care of things but he is guiltying you too. Not very responsible. I heard the same things, "Why are you so rigid? Relax. I just want to find some peace." Honestly, I think my ex didn't know how to express his love for me. Saying you love someone doesn't show that you love someone. You show it by being thoughtful of the other person, being responsible for your behaviour, your actions. Making mistakes and owning up to them.
Like I said, love is not enough. I let go of the love of my life but I know there is another love out there that will make me happier and I'll love them just as much or more because they will be able to fulfill my very reasonable needs. Your wants aren't unreasonable. They are just your needs. He can't understand that. It's hard to face up to but it's either you can accept his inability to give you what you need and be happy with that or you aren't happy and need to either move on or come up with a solution you can be happy with. But the main point is that YOU need to be happy. With or without him.
good luck!