Submitted by Hopeful Heart on 09/01/2017.
I have been manipulated and dumped on for so long, by so many people, I don't know anymore what is sincere and what is manipulation. Is this a sincere apology.
"I apologize for all the pain that I've caused you "
To me, it feels like someone that doesn't want to take responsibility for their actions and they just want the problem to go away. I could be absolutely wrong, though.
P.S. I hope this didn't post twice. It seemed to disappear the first time I posted it.
My ex has said this to me
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
My ex has said this to me several times. I think it's sincere but all it means is the following: "I feel bad about myself because I've caused you pain. Please tell me it's okay so that I can stop feeling bad about myself." What would actually make a difference to me is my ex changing his behavior, and so when he does nice things, I thank him.
I absolutely agree. A change
Submitted by Hopeful Heart on
I absolutely agree. A change in behavior is really the key. I guess only time will tell.
Hopeful Heart,
Submitted by GiveMePatience on
Hopeful Heart,
I have been where you are many times... asking the same question. It took me a VERY long time, but I have finally concluded that YES, this is a sincere apology.
In fact, it took me AN INCREDIBLY LONG TIME TO FIGURE OUT WHAT THE HECK WAS GOING ON, PERIOD! I made the HUGE MISTAKE of thinking that my husband was 'just like me'. 'AWARE' of things... Things that need to be done.... Things like someone else's OBVIOUS hurt feelings... ETC... But, he is not. My husband is NOT like me. He is not very aware of even HIMSELF, let alone someone else, such as myself.
It was not until I figured out that I actually had to EXPRESS that 'something that he said' hurt me, for example... that actually made him 'self-reflective'... and thus bring about AN APOLOGY. SO... be GRATEFUL for an apology... and strive to get to the place where you can ACCEPT it.
I honestly believe that my husband truly DOES NOT MEAN ANY HARM... He just 'hears things differently' than they are said OR meant... which elicits some 'hurtful responses' from him, sometimes... I am LEARNING how to say things or 'ask' things, WITHOUT making him feel like I am 'belittling' him... or 'questioning' him... It's rough. But, it just IS. We must make the very best of it! ;)
GiveMe Patience......Be Thankful
Submitted by kellyj on
I understand what you just said very well in fact ...here I am the ADHD man, but with someone very much like myself....and you'd think, I'd catch on to that sooner but that's not the case at all. You cannot be aware of something in someone else that you are not aware of in yourself? You may be affected by it, but it doesn't mean you know what it is and that is exactly what my experience has been throughout this journey of discovery I've been on in trying to understand and get to the truth of the matter. I actually came to that here on this forum which really solidified this in my thinking and understanding even if I knew it to a certain degree.
How someone else thinks of you, is their right and their prerogative....they are free to think of you....any way they like in fact.....they can "think" anything they like or choose, it's not up to me to make them "think" anything of me ....or not, by me trying to convince them or argue with them otherwise. But that actually didn't really come, until I realized what you are saying? And the simple question is.....'"why would I think otherwise?" And the the answer there is, I wouldn't? Why would I expect that, the odds are way not in your favor meeting someone randomly and getting involved with them who has ADHD per se.....just as "the odds are" kind of thing.....not taking into account things like attraction and attachments as a simply standing point of statistics. And with coming from the perspective that "I'm the odd one here".....everyone else is not? Well......with "us"....it didn't work out that way for all reasons which are many....but I still wasn't seeing my wife "that way" and thinking "she was the normal one without a disorder" so I'm seeing her like everyone else......not like "me". Until I went....."uh....somethings kind of familiar here, if I didn't know better???????????????".....and then there is was? In her case, I'm pretty darn sure that Aspergers is in there amongst other things. The physical manifestations that I noted "right off the bat" with D......I did not connect with anything, they just just "mannerisms" or just "traits" people have that are not connected with anything else. I mean, this was possibly noticed the first time I ever met her in fact....it was, almost instantly I noticed it because of my "habit" of people watching and noticing how "people walk" and how people "move". And I know why in part and it comes from trying to "draw people" which I stated doing at a very young age and it's very difficult to do accurately. When you really "look" at people and study them to "draw them" or sketch them, you really at things that most people including me don't always look at or notice in others......but I am especially drawn to people walking and I always notice their "gate" and especially which way their feet point either outward or inward or straight. I walk pretty straight and wear my shoes evenly but that just comes from being so aware of it. Even as a kid, in a book once it talked about Indians and how they walk "straight' so I practiced it as a kid...to be like "Indians". LOL It's just something I'm aware of and I notice first thing.
Anyway, my wife had this funny "not so graceful" way of walking that I notice right off the bat. Here feet point in so she's a little pigeon toed...and she kind of does a "lumber / shuffle" and doesn't pick her feet up and stride. And she has really bad posture with here shoulders kind of "hung forward" with her arms kind of "ape hanging" down at her sides. It's not very becoming and kind of "clumsy looking' but not matter to me....it didn't or doesn't bother me one way or the other. I just noticed it and once....one of her "not so good friend" noticed it too and made a derogatory remark about saying she walks like a "Neanderthal". Well, that was mean, and I told my wife that. But I've said much worse to her than that.....but that one, I've never used against her once even though I brought it to her attention once...when she was bumping into things including me and getting irritated because "I didn't move for her," And not knowing my response was probably something like....."whats wrong with your legs.....YOU MOVE....Ginger Rodgers!!" or something like that? I mean....if someone were to "pull that one" on me and use "Fred Astaire" as a "code word" ....then I'd get it, it wouldn't hurt my feelings and I'd also get.....that they were telling me that "isn't their problem"......if my big old "clown feet" just stepped on their foot. Know what I mean? But ....in my case as it sound like you were saying....it took a very long time just to connect these things together and make any sense of it? Unless someone tells you....this is all quite a mystery....even to me? I'm not "excluded" from any of this just the same.
And it really solidify at all ...until I could place all this symptoms and lay them out of the table...and then read something like "Lumbering Gate"...as a symptom and then all of a sudden...the bells and whistles start going off" like gang busters. "Lumbering Gate"...is a really specific things or symptom and it's NOT...in the ADHD handbook, or anyone I've ever seen? That is a very "explicit and specific symptom" that really stands alone as odd and not necessarily shows up on any other "list" you've seen. And then when you look at "odd ball ones" that aren't on any other list of symptoms "except that one".....it take something, to bring your attention to it or to make it "stand out" for anything else to know what it is....since "Lumbering Gate" could apply to anyone....but it's a very unusual kind of way of walking....that you'd just have to see? I didn't even have a "name for it' or was looking for it.....but when I read it ( for the first time in connection to Aspergers ) and then looked other "physical traits" as well.....it was like hitting the Jackpot.....all "Cherries" for sure. But I didn't know that...and I started out as thinking she was "just like everyone else" and "I was the odd one...."so she must right"....or at least....I gave her the benefit of the doubt because I'm a 'known quantity"...she simply "WAS NOT". I can't really believe that she didn't or was not aware.....especially now in hind sight.....he responses to me ( in vauge and unclear and deceptively generalized language ) was " hey, you just worry about your "issues"....and "I'll worry about mine....shut up, I don't want to talk about it".......
And that right there....is what I want an apology for. That last sentence and what that means the amount of grief and heartache I went through......because "she knew" and she wasn't saying. On some level, and maybe "exactly" in fact, in all the ways she avoided it or avoided having to admit it.......it all points to exactly that. That she "knew" and she "wasn't saying". Up to a point she did and maybe and possibly " a whole lot more".....we will never know. Since she isn't saying....and that is what I really wanted from her the most .....acknowledgement and admitting she lied......instead of what I got was....."you don't matter. You're feelings don't matter...what you think doesn't matter.......YOU DON'T MATTER"........"which is the bottom line here.
I do agree that this is sincere.....if you are only aware of what you are aware of....then you can't be specific to anyone? And you can't get a "specific apology for a specific thing explicitly.......unless a person is aware, knows what they did, knows how that harms someone....and then make that kind of apology? I mean, if you can't do that.....then you can't ever apologize? And I hate when I here this coming from a different way of looking at it but....I heard people say...."well, they did the best they could ..." or even "he Loved you, She Loved you.......you know they did." It's like those "gifts of service"......I always called those "gestures" which they are, and they are nice and thoughtful and make a person feel good.....but are they LOVE? Well, they are "one part" of LOVE.......I wouldn't call them "complete" or "enough" on their own....by themselves...and a "standing point' alone. Well no......if you expect LOVE.....as kind of a "package deal"...and all you get is "gifts of service" when when you did something nice or just to give "gifts"....instead of apologies for example.....it kind of like Poisenivy just said......."it'd be nice to have the action, match the words....but mostly it's not the apology that is really needed....it's more the acknowledgment that is missing and that "you matter" as the bottom line. I don't think the apolgy is more important than that in what it feels like to me.
J
kellyj, on patience
Submitted by dedelight4 on
J, once again, another post that says SO much. I love it. You are in a TOTALLY UNIQUE situation where you have adhd and have also been married to someone with it (or something similar) What a perspective this gives you. Oh my gracious.
I agree with. Your "love" assessment. Are they truly LOVING someone, or just doing nice things for them? My husband has this way of doing things also. He equates them both the same, when it isnt. But his childhood home lived that way, so it MUST be the right way,, even though he knows his family was messed up. His mom did a huge number on them
I LAUGHED SO HARD when you talked about the Neanderthal thing. No one......no one has ever mentioned this, but my mother. In law and husband BOTH walk like this, (her deceased) and have had the bent over bodies like they have a spinal problem, with the hanging arns but there isnt any bodily problem. They both had/have rigid body movements with no fluid control of their body movements. If my husband wants to look at something he doesnt turn his head, he turns his whole body instead of only part, or even just his eyes. Interesting
Praying for you today friend.
KellyJ and DeDelight
Submitted by GiveMePatience on
KellyJ and DeDelight, both of you offer such great insight and information... I appreciate it SO MUCH more than I could express.
From a few of the things that both of you have written here, I wanted to share a book that I bought for my husband. It is called, "Running on Empty", with the subtitle, "Overcome Your Childhood Emotional Neglect", By Jonice Webb, PhD. This book was LIFE-CHANGING... for BOTH of us. The premise is that it is NOT WHAT HAPPENED to you, as a child... but WHAT DIDN'T HAPPEN. DeDelight, you had mentioned your husband's family being ''messed up''... and that ''his mom did a huge number on them". The same is true for my husband's family. I am 'pretty convinced' that EVERYONE'S family is "messed up"... it is just to WHAT DEGREE! Some of us MUCH MORE SO than others. But, this book had an ENORMOUS IMPACT and made quite a difference in our lives.
My very best to you both and everyone here.
What Didn't Happen......
Submitted by kellyj on
That's the part I knew about ( or kind of got or intuited ) but I had no idea what that was? What most frustrating is asking you're older sisters and they don't have any idea what you are talking about but they did finally see but it took them a long time too. More so than me as it would appear in some ways more specific to something that "was missing". My oldest sister used the words "not demonstrative"........................."yeah right" LOL ( touching ...I get it now lol ) You can't prove a negative, and you can't know of, or miss what you are not even aware of and you've never had before. That's the long road to get there but you do learn the lessons well....as they come indeed. lol That sounds like the approach or along the lines I was thinking too. What I just said, I won't repeat myself :)
J
Dedelight4,
Submitted by Hopeful Heart on
I completely understand this concept.
I have said to my husband many times, "You do nice things for me, but you're not nice to me."
Acts of service are really the only way that my husband knows how to love. I try to be grateful for that. But it sure can be lonely.
Love and acts of service.....
Submitted by c ur self on
My wife use to tell me all the time that my acts of service didn't speak love to her....Until I stopped them....Mostly she told me this (or tells me this) when she couldn't manipulate me into helping her (travel, spend money, entertainment functions) entertain her self....
The definition of a Husband and Wife is to be servants to one another....If I set selfish rules that all start with my wants and perceived needs then we never have a healthy marriage...Same with her, If everything she doesn't "like" for some reason about her role and responsibilities as a wife automatically is a NO...Then I have no wife....
When we play tit for tat...We have no marriage...We are just to selfish individuals lock into a unhealthy mind set.....
Good marriages only come about when we cherish our roles....Period!....Making excuses based on the other person's actions is a cope out....I don't have to stay with her...But I can never be excused for not giving 100% as a husband....
C
This is so interesting. My
Submitted by Hopeful Heart on
This is so interesting. My husband stands up straight when he walks, but he walks very slowly and barely picks up his feet. He tried wearing a pedometer once and didn't measure a large portion of his steps. He thought the pedometer was broken so I got him another one and the same thing happened. I finally figured out that he just didn't pick up his feet enough for the pedometer to work properly.
Once again, it put my response in the wrong place. This is to kellyj.
i need that book.
Submitted by Hopeful Heart on
I'm going to look up this book. I really, really need something like this.
I agree I think we all have screwed up families. However, there seems to be a different spirit within some families. It seems that some families acknowledge their disfunction and accept each other and stand by each other. While other families ostracize and shame and blame. Unfortunately, I come from the latter type.
You're so right. There is a
Submitted by Hopeful Heart on
You're so right. There is a big gap between 'appreciating' an apology and being able to accept it and 'trust' in it. I hope I can get to the acceptance and trust phase of this apology.
This response is to GiveMePatience. My iPad won't put it in the correct place in the thread. Sorry!
Where responses show up in the thread
Submitted by Chevron on
Just wanted to say that the software on ths site threads responses to earlier posts in an unusual way. Even though you click on reply to a particular post, the site doesnt use separate cascades of replies to particular posts. So if you come back after other people have posted about anything, your post will pop up at the bottom of recent posts, not near the post to which you replied.
It's a little confusing, if the thread is very active or has gone on for awhile.
Two ways around it that people use are to name in your post title to whom you are speaking, and repeat or quote to what you are responding. That helps readers connect things.
Just wanted to let you know that it wasnt you...
Hopeful, blanket apologies
Submitted by dedelight4 on
Hi, Hopeful. This is interesting. Yes, I've heard this too, and I feel similar about this type of apology. I would like to hear Melissa's take on this, and maybe an interpretation for us.
I can see two things here. Maybe my husband really IS sorry and is trying g to convey that. Or, like you said its more of a "I don't like how I feel, so tell me everything is okay so that this will all go away." I've watched both happen,but experienced the later MORE than the first.
I do believe there is a total ineptness (unless they choose to relearn) in HOW to fully be sorry for something, and make sure your offended person can FEEL that you are sincere. This IS possible, but something that seems to be so foreign to most people with ADHD. I've thought that maybe its because they spend most of their lives in "I,I,I,me, me" thinking. And, not, how are my actions affecting others? Thus,the massive DENIAL of how bad the ADHD really is, and has BEEN their entire lives. ItsTHEIR "normal", in all its abmormality, which they are scared to DEATH to look at. ( at least my SO is) He's scared to death of being labeled " crazy" like his brother and mother were. In fact, in our situation, I've been angry at him for having so LITTLE compassion for his brother, who caused a lot of trouble as a child, but it wasn't HIS fault. Their MOTHER had everything to do with it, but she manipulated the family with BLAME to turn the FOCUS off of herself and put it on the child and on her husband. She was a master at it. My husband defends her to a fault, but she manipulated her kids to DO this, I watched her DO it. But, she was bipolar, and had early onset Alzheimer's. She partly KNEW she was doing this. She did admit to me twice that she KNEW she should have been a better wife, but again, just LEFT things like that, and didn't seek any answers. Plus, most people with disorders will say they've always known "something is wrong with me". Most don't get help until there is a MAJOR crisis, or series of these to where they're forced to then look at themselves. Some, then go their entire lives blaming the rest of the world for their OWN inability to do certain things. (Mainly, to CONNECT with other people on more than a visceral level ) Also, with their uncanny ability to " forget" their past foibles, each new one is just THAT....a NEW one. "I don't do that all the time", when they do.(he does)
I do believe their massive fear of being labeled "crazy" keeps them from looking for answers. So, blame and denial and deflection works the best to make them feel better. Yes, its wrong. There seems to be a missing "something" inside them. But yet others like J and Melissa's husband, etc, push past their fear and want to FIND answers. Interesting. It looks like COURAGE to me. Some have courage to face themselves, most don't. (Maybe?) Again, things I keep asking.
Here's one take on what the basic parts of an apology are
Submitted by Chevron on
https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/the_three_parts_of_an_effe...
Step #3 is Poison Ivy's point: the apologizer takes action to emend what he or she did to harm the other person.
Without that step 3, I think an apology is incomplete. Words are very important in a relation but are not enough, if there was harmful behavior or a harmful habit.
If your husband is sincere, that sentence is an expression of contrition, which is part of apologizing, but not the whole apology..
I think, if people really come to understand that they have been harmful in many situations, they can have blanket contrition for having caused all that pain. But the feeling is incomplete if no change happens, and the old behaviors keep happening.
Chevron,
Submitted by Hopeful Heart on
That's a really great article. Unfortunately, I fear that the ones that really need that information, will never use it. LOL
I'm going to try to withhold judgement on the apology. I'm going to hope that a change in behavior will follow.
Hopeful
Submitted by Chevron on
Much appreciation for the situation you described that led you to make your first post.
It's so difficult to know, if there's a change of understanding and change of moral stance under that statement you asked us about.
The only way that I know to know, is that step #3 that PoisonIvy brought up...she responds to step #3 when she sees it, change of action.
My partner doesn't say the words of apology very often. He does however get to #3, changing what he was doing that was harmful. I decided that #3 from him was enough for me.
It's the litmus test to me for whether or not my own apologies are real, too.
I agree w/ Chevron....
Submitted by c ur self on
If I keep having to repeat my apology to you...Or I keep throwing out a blanket "Sorry".....Then what that say's about me is; I accept my actions toward you, and can fix it with a few simple words....(That guarantees you, I'm going to repeat it ).....And we all know offenses, especially those that keep repeating themselves, run much deeper than that....So for me to ask your forgiveness, and to give you some commitment about my future behavior, is vital to get to a real place of healing between us.....
Sometimes offenses are caused by misunderstandings...."Different realities"...But even in those cases, I shouldn't hide my feelings (communicate it kindly) and thoughts on a particular matter from my spouse...If I'm hiding it, I probably should be ashamed of it....Or either I'm just as asshole w/ a pride problem.....
C
Thank you all so much for
Submitted by Hopeful Heart on
Thank you all so much for your input. As usual, you're all very insightful and helpful. I can't say how much I appreciate the help and support from the people on this sight.
Hopeful Heart Thank You
Submitted by kellyj on
I can return the same favor and say to you and everyone here for this wild searching for answers and had no idea what to try or do? Without the help here, I don't know what I would have done and in that.....I can say now what I could not say or know how to say....I am sincerely sorry, for taking up so much space and doing what I was doing which without a doubt, was just more of the same clogging up the works but in real time now. And the cursing and the anger and venting at times was me just "sharing it" with everyone which is exactly what you see as well. TMI.....too much information and that goes for "emoting".....yes, I think that is a good word. And "pontificating" and "analyzing" and the whole nine yards....which the only blessing in a lot of that was in for me at times....as much as I tried not to....it doesn't matter......I'm very sorry for that, and can only ask for your forgiveness. I'll do my best to honor what I've learned and use it along with what I've learned that should alleviate this down immensely, if I can put it into a working strategy...for everyone including me. No one can do more than they can do, at any one moment in time....but know that " I have hurt you" is really what you need to hear to be complete. I agree, there is something that lingers otherwise and never truly goes away. I mean, it does....but over time it just builds and gets bigger as those just keep collecting until it's out of control. It's not the "one time" or even twice......that most people could get past without too much of a problem,,,it's that it doesn't end or change to anything better or different and that just only gets worse as times goes on. I have been able to complete this story and put everyone in their places including me ( of coarse ) and knowing more now, than I've ever known before but volumes and volumes yes.....I learned a great deal. Thank you, it allowed me to see things in a way that are not nearly as bad as you could come up with ...unless there was someone there to help you and guide you along. so with that..... and I'm sorry ...both at the same time ;)
J