I could live with alot...I can put up with alot. I can cope with a messy house, I can cope with the forgetfulness, I can actually love the sudden changes in plans. I can forgive the forgotten chores. All pretty easily, small stuff really. I can give support and encouragement, and help with anything he wants and needs.
What I cannot live with is the apathy. The constant eggshells of "I might leave you, but I haven't decided". The underlying threat that if he feels unhappy or upset for any reason, it will all unwind and he will leave. The willingness to run away and bail on me when *I* need him most. It doesnt even matter to him if I sink or swim as long as he can get away from it. The feeling that I have not and never will measure up to what he feels he wants. He has already decided that I am *not* it. And it would not matter if I morphed into all the other women he told me were so perfect and ideal in the past, it would in the end still be me, and I am not enough.
I am learning to be ok with it. But its not easy. Some days i am filled with rage that helps me push through, and that reminds me of what will be when I keep the focus on me and my new life. Other day, I just want to lay down and cry. Guess what kind of day today is? Maybe its my mom's urn coming home yesterday, maybe its just memories flooding me all day. I don't know. But I know it will pass, and I will have other, more frequent good days.
He is going to a party tonight at mutual friends. I am really glad he is going, hopefully being around happy people will make him happy. Maybe I am jealous that I wont go (its my choice, I am caring for my sweet little dog who has begun the process of dying, and i refuse to leave his side). Who knows. But I am going to make my favorite food tonight, pay bills (that arent already handled by him), sit with my little dog, look at pinterest and imagine all the great things I am going to do in a very short amount of time.
I'm sorry that you also are
Submitted by dedelight4 on
I'm sorry that you also are going through this. It is the worst feeling, to know your spouse wont fight for you or fight for your relationship. Its just "whatever".
I ask myself about MY husband....then WHY did you ask me to MARRY you, if you werent sure WHAT you wanted? Thats USING people to get what YOU want, if even for a little while. It feels like Im a disposable person, like a disposable cup. Just throw it away when you are done with it. But DONT save it for gosh sakes. Hard for sure. Hugs to you Sweetie.
Dede
Dede - thankyou - you really
Submitted by SpaceyStacey197... on
Dede - thankyou - you really were able to articulate how I am feeling. Disposable. Like either way - be in his life or not - it wont matter to him. I realized that for years now, he has been playing with my head, putting me through some sort of weird game he has going on - one that I didnt realize I was a pawn in.
I thought he loved me. I was wrong. And the worst of it is - it took him years to actually CONVINCE me that he really did, and as soon as I accepted that - its gone. So... a game. I definately feel used. How could I feel any other way when I am treated like you said - a disposable cup.
I love him very much, always have - and it will take a while to get over that. But I have come to the conclusion that I must. So everything I am doing right now is geared towards moving my life forward, healing, building up my confidence etc. Making plans for my life that dont include him. Finding ways NOW to face the holidays alone. Today is just a sad day for me in so many ways.
Thanks for the hugs Dede... I will take virtually what I dont ever get in life. Weird to think that I have not touched or been touched by another human being for ... I dont even know how long! I think I hugged my cousin about 6 weeks ago when i saw her?
*EDIT* I should note that every night I get a peck on the lips and a brief hug - but its all so mechanical and forced. I take no joy in it and instead feel akward because I know the last thing he wants to do is touch me.
Turn the tables....and not
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
Turn the tables....and not just in response to his words. When you're feeling frustrated with living with him, say to him FIRMLY (not with anger), "I'm not happy with living with (blah blah blah), and I might just leave. I'm thinking of making an appt with an attorney" (Or something similar....again, NOT with anger, and NOT as a response to his words....just cool and matter-of-factly.
Let him hear those words. My H was frequently saying such things to me, and finally, in response to some of the constantly annoying things he was doing and saying, I began firmly letting him know that HE IS ON SHAKY GROUND!
Oh wow! The shock he felt having the tables turned.
I started saying this when my sister, a therapist, told me, "he needs you more than you need him...and he knows it." Those words, said to me about 4 years ago, made me realize that I have more power than I thought. Now my H is terrified that I will leave.
Overwhelmed,
Submitted by SpaceyStacey197... on
Overwhelmed,
I honestly believe that my H wants that. I think he has already made up his mind that he is leaving at some already determined date.
Previously, i had actually done the paperwork to file for divorce, paid the fees and everything and it didn't seem to phase him. As Dede put it, he doesn't seem like he event wants to fight for me or this relationship and that's the hardest part. That it's not worth it to him. I guess in his eyes all he sees is a miserable overweight ugly wife who certainly isn't worth a second look. He doesn't seem to see me for who I am inside at all, and I don't know that he ever has.
But it believe me when I say that's ok. Because while he might not see me, I do see me. I know that my value is much higher than that. So I won't stop him when he leaves, I will not put up a fight or beg him to stay. He is the writer of his own story and always has been. I wanted to write a story with him, but he just thinks that's control versus collaboration. But that's fine, he clearly doesn't want a life with me and I don't think anything will change that.
he makes his mind up about something and that's that. Doesn't matter if it's right or wrong, true or false... He knows better than everyone else and any one who says different is just trying to control him.
So like so many spouses here, who are married to an ADHD person whom they love, I have to make the decision to separate my heart and mind, my future hopes and dreams and change everything to remove him from the equation. And I think that is exactly what he wants too.
""Previously, i had actually
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
""Previously, i had actually done the paperwork to file for divorce, paid the fees and everything and it didn't seem to faze him. As Dede put it, he doesn't seem like he event wants to fight for me or this relationship and that's the hardest part. That it's not worth it to him. I guess in his eyes all he sees is a miserable overweight ugly wife who certainly isn't worth a second look. He doesn't seem to see me for who I am inside at all, and I don't know that he ever has. ""
So why did you pull back from the divorce?
I think your H is bluffing and using those words as a club to hit you with.
You say that you love him very much....why? He doesn't seem to love you, or does he?
Overwhelmed,
Submitted by SpaceyStacey197... on
Overwhelmed,
I pulled back from the divorce after a 3 month separation, when he came back and said that he really DID want to work on his issues, and that he knew that his future was with me. He came back, and put in effort with therapy and taking ownership of not just his ADHD but other issues from his past (he was terribly abused for a very long time by family members). That lasted for about 6 months, and then he felt he needed to leave again and try and deal with those past issues, and didnt want me to suffer the effects of it. That separation was different as we had contact, went to our T, and he was actively working on things. He came back again after about 3 months, with confirmation in his mind that he was going to get past things, put the work in that as needed and knew that it would take time, and be hard, but he wanted to have a life with me. Again - he says he knows with no doubt that his future and his life is with me and he felt confident that as long as we stayed open to eachother, and talked to eachother, that while he knew there would be rough patches, we would get through them. He said we needed to promise eachother that we would not just pick up and run at the first sign of trouble. At least thats what he "said" because - 1 year later, he was singing a new tune, after an out of state move, his daughter moving back to his mothers, and my mother dying (and me having to be in Atlanta for most of that time). Right after Christmas - he was back to "I dont know if I want to be married" again after I caught him smoking (and lying to my face about it - and again I had to explain that he is a grown man and doesnt have to lie about what he chooses to do - but that I will not tolerate lying, even though I understand WHY he felt the need to - someone who has experiences like him tend to have a compulsive need to lie in an attempt to maintain a facade of control), and I told him I didnt believe him, that he was going through his normal period of freak out (due to the past abuse - January is an extremely hard time for him). So after that, things seemed to be fine, we were doing good - having some minor spats about the housework not getting done, I thought we were past that. But he still would not wear his wedding ring. I asked him one night if he planned to put it back on and he said yes. I left it at that. I asked him a few days after that when he planned on putting it back on, and then it was back to "I dont know, I dont know if I want to be married" again. This time I pointed out that he had been acting loving, kind and pretty much like any other husband, and he point blank told me that its because he was in a good mood. I then asked him if he based his wanting to be married on the mood he was in and it was a yes, and that he also felt like he was being controlled. I think at that point, after all the concessions I have made, all the compromises and acceptance of all these lovely ADHD quirks, him telling me that after 7 years of me supporting and helping him and accepting all this behavior from him (in the guise of if we work on things they will get better), he was essentially telling me he wasnt sure he could even be bothered with trying to work on things (for himself AND us).
I think something inside me just snapped. I have been through alot of loss, my mother died on 11/15/2015 after a very long battle with cancer, and I was her primary caretaker in the end. It was brutal to watch and go through and it really took a toll on me emotionally. I came home after that and just a bit over 1 month he tells me this? And I STILL try to work on things ? And even after that it wasnt enough? I really think something just broke in my head. If he is bluffing - well its too bad, because I am not going to let him beat me with that stick anymore. He has used threats of leaving to control me for so long - all the while trying to say it was him being controlled.... It was like I lost my mind one night and this rage appeared.... He had he nerve to accuse me of controlling him - when I have gone through extraordinary measures to always be honest, non manipulative, and let him make all his own decisions and decide his own goals etc - just playing supportive roll as he defined for me. HE is the one who was controlling, not me. I have had to walk on eggshells for 7 years, thinking that at any moment - he was going to just up and leave because for what ever unknown reason he "couldnt handle it" . He is free to make any choice he wants, I am free to be OK with it or not and can choose to stick it out or not - JUST AS MUCH AS HE HAS THAT RIGHT.
So no - I dont think its a bluff, and I am not going to treat it as such. I have made the very concious effort to remove myself emotionally and logically from his life. He can leave, he knows where the door is. I will not fight for him, I will not stop him. I will simply watch him walk out the door, and proceed with my life as usual. I am already taking steps to take care of my self, I am back on the ball eating better, exersizing and really starting to manage my health, because in the end - its just gonna be me to take care of me.
I do love him - very much. Probably because I am stupid. This is someone who I have loved for a very long time, someone who told me lots of things that just werent true. I believed the lies. Sad thing is - I dont think they were lies when he told them, he just lets his moods and emotions control him - kinda like a child. Adults use their brains (usually) to make decisions. Children are guided by emotion only.
But why do I love him? Because when he is in actual control (not this "I have to control my life so I am going to lie and not live up to my commitments because I am not in the mood) he is amazing. He is brilliant - able to grasp incredibly complex concepts, can have discussions on politics, religion, history, and do so in an ellequent and passionate way - with out letting disagreements turn into anger and fighting. He loves a good debate! When he is in control, when he is eating well and exercising - he is calm but energetic (not in that frantic/manic/hyper way). His smile can light up a city, and my heart still skips a beat when I think about the days that he was really working at things. He gets my humor like no one else, and when he is in control - we spend hours laughing and talking. We love the same things with just enough difference to keep things interesting . Have the same tastes, and while he is HORRIBLE with money, he is smart enough to let me manage that and not put up too much a fuss (when he is in control of himself). Back when he was doing cross fit (I swear, doing regular exercise REALLY seems to help ADHD) and eating better, he just exuded real confidence. Not arrogance, but you could see him getting comfortable in his own skin. He is beautiful when he is happy. He is a very kind person (to pretty much everyone but me funny enough - I believe this is due to anger transference with him misplacing anger from his past onto me since I am closest to him). He is a genuine friend to people and is always the first one to help. When a tornado destroyed a town we lived next to - he was IMMEDIATELY working to help search/rescue/recovery efforts. He is so funny, that it can be actually painful to be around him because you will laugh so hard. When he is him, he makes me feel like a queen. The best i ever saw him was right before he remembered some terrible things, and right before his daughter moved in with her mother. He was rising up, taking control and becoming the man he always wanted to be. It was a beautiful thing to see. And one of the worst experiences in my life when he crashed. That was was the first time he left me. And he never has gotten back to that point, but he keeps coming back and saying he wants to.
My husband's worst enemy is himself, and the voice inside him that says he is NOT good enough, and NOT strong enough to face down his past. I cannot fact that voice for him - he has to. But its what controls him in every way. Its very sad to watch. He doesnt see it - but he is right in it and cant see the forest for the trees.
I dont think he loves me. At least not enough. That negative voice - he loves that more. I believe with all my heart that we are what we choose - not what our abilities are. And I choose to move forward, I choose every day to get up on my eliptical, through the pain, through the sweat and tears (because believe me - there are tears) because I know its the only way to get where I want to be. I choose to do the work. I choose to NOT eat things I know are hurting me, even though I might desperately want that chocolate cake. Enough so that its a near constant struggle to battle that very large voice that says "You will never be healthy - you are old, just face it and ENJOY THAT SLICE". But that voice is a lie, and I recognize it. I know that the suffering I put in now will prevent MUCH WORSE suffering in the future. Some people dont get that concept, and thats ok. But I choose not to live in that way. So he can choose to leave. He can choose to walk away from me, and our life, our dogs, our home. If that voice is what he believes - I will not stop him. I will not be the locked gate to this happiness he thinks he can find in a life with out "us". If he wants to spend his days in the spare room of a friend's house, playing video games, and giving lip service to his fighting goals (his teachers only have so much patience for someone who only talks the talk but doesnt walk the walk), that will be his choice. He can go find what ever happiness he can find and I will not stop him, I wont beg him to stay. I dont want to be with someone who doesnt think I am worth it, who wont fight for me and take a stand and work on themselves to be better for their self.
I wish he did love me. But after 7 years of this, I have to conclude that he doesnt. I do not think his heart ever skipped a beat when he saw me, I do not think he finds me beautiful. I do not think he even *sees* me really. I think what he see's is someone who is controlling him - when I am not. Because its easier to blame me and blame our marriage for his unhappiness in himself.
Loveing someone versus "In Love" with someone...
Submitted by SpaceyStacey197... on
I wanted to add something to my response to you Overwhelmed...
When i say I love him - I mean it. I do love him, very much. And I recognize that there are times when I am not "in love" with him - as that is a mood, not solid. Hell - there are times when I dont even LIKE him.... But, I know that I do love him. I have no doubt. Because I would never have had the strength to go through what I have gone through for the past 7 years if I didnt. My husband's problem is that he doesnt understand the difference between love and "in love" feelings. Love is action. Love is choice. Loving someone brings a range of emotions, but above all love is a commitment in your heart. Being "In Love" is a facet of emotion, that wonderlust, that pitter patter of your heart. It comes and goes, depending on mood and circumstance.
Ask anyone who has been together and is happy - they know the difference... BOTH of them. And they know that being "in love" ebbs and flows at different times, sometimes at the same time together, sometimes not. But because of the REAL love involved, the commitment, the steadfast and loyalty - they get to reap the benefits of that "in love" feeling with someone and feel confident that when its NOT there, the real true love - that solid deep friendship - will sustain until the flow is back.
So when I say I love him - that is what I mean. But I know that it cannot be a one way street (even though at times it might FEEL like it). There has to be some security that your spouse isnt going to drop and run at the first sign of trouble, abandoning you to what ever fate will befall you. Cowards do that.
Also - need to add (lol sorry
Submitted by SpaceyStacey197... on
Also - need to add (lol sorry my thoughts just run)...
A person has to recognize when that love is NOT returned, and that is not the same thing as turning tail and running at the first sign of trouble. I have stuck it out, through things that no one should stick with. If someone were to tell me they were dealing with things like I have dealt with I would tell them to run - get the hell out of dodge as being treated like that is NOT right. However, I loved my H enough to get to the root of the problem, proving that i am not a cut an run person. I saw him and still see him for who he is, but I have had to aknowledge that even through ALL of that, after all the work, and all the chances I have given - he still chooses to leave. And I have to let him. He is the one cutting and running - not me, I am just not going to set up any road blocks to stop him anymore. His choice is his choice and his life is his life.
Yes.....Stacey
Submitted by kellyj on
You aren't running. You're not allowing. If they run...that's their problem....not yours.
I totally agree.
J
Sorry liz,didnt mean to post twice.
Submitted by dedelight4 on
Working on a small tablet, stupid tablet. Dont have a computer back yet, or most of my stuff still. Hate that, because I feel like I'm still in limbo, and not fully settled. Hars to do at this age. Lol
Sorry liz,didnt mean to post twice.
Submitted by dedelight4 on
Working on a small tablet, stupid tablet. Dont have a computer back yet, or most of my stuff still. Hate that, because I feel like I'm still in limbo, and not fully settled. Hars to do at this age. Lol
I love Audrey Hepburn, always
Submitted by SpaceyStacey197... on
I love Audrey Hepburn, always have. And I have several books about her. Today I was watching a little video her son made, and he was talking about his parents split up. He said something that really boiled things down quite a bit for me. He said:
"My mom believed love was recieving flowers sent - not requested".
Yes. This. When you love someone, you do things to bring joy to them. When my H and I started dating, life was full of those little things. Random "I Love You" texts etc. I made a point to send him stuff as suprises at work, or little things here and there... but that was never returned to me unless I requested it. Its paying attention, listening, and actually CARING about what your partner has going on. Even if its just looking at their stuff on Facebook for goodness sake. Stupid social media! SHEESH!
Speaking of, its always fun to see my H "like" when someone is on a new day of their new workout - or doing something to improve themselves. But for me? no comment, no aknowledgement - in fact, nothing at all, not even having the grace to not bring crap into the house he knows I love but cannot have while trying to improve my health. Because "he doesnt know how to respond or what to say to me". Seriously. After a 25 year friendship, 7 year romantic relationship (including 5 years of marriage) his is excuse is that he doesnt know what to do.
Sorry - just venting again. Its very insulting to my intellegence. He thinks I will continue to buy the "I dont know" routine - when it really is "I dont want to" in disguise. And WHO WANTS TO BE with someone who DOESNT WANT THEM! Not me. While I would never ever have an affair (I have the moral code to end this completely first), I sure understand why people do. Out of desperation for any sort of affection from another human.
Who wrote our scripts anyway?
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
SpaceyStacey, DeDe, Overwhelmed,
We do live with a lot more, let’s call it intensity, than many other married couples, don’t we!?! We have to navigate difficult communication patterns. We need to determine that degree of tidiness in our house that can be a comfortable place for us. We have learned to embrace some sudden changes in plans, while struggling to express our dislike/unhappiness with the changes that are actually disappointments. We learn to sigh deeply at forgotten chores, and then try to decide if we want them done or we want to just forget them.
We give support. We give encouragement. We try to help when it is wanted.
I have learned to remove the underlying threat of leaving. If he decides he wants to leave, that is the parameter in which I will work.
For today, my choice is to live in today, and I am here – and choose to not make any promises or threats about tomorrow. I really, truly, honestly can only live in today. Sometime I live in this specific hour, or even this specific minute.
I have come to believe that the comparisons I hear to other women or married couples or other men are more about confirming his own feelings, rather than to tear down mine.
I have found I am enough for Liz. That is what I know, believe, and cherish.
And, truly, none of this is easy. My choice continues to be: to power through.
Mutual friends, enjoying time out with other couples, family parties - that is not something we can enjoy at the present time.
I am content when my spouse does things with his brother, or his friend, or acquaintances. I am content to do what I like – stay at home and enjoy the solitude, or go babysit, or go do things with my friends, or spend the day at school enjoying my classes.
I know my spouse asked me to marry him because he loved me. I know I said yes because I loved him. I know I will not give up on him as a man, as a person, as a Child of God. I will not. I will not give up on him. Whether we can find joy and happiness together, that is not the same thing by any means.
Relationship struggles are overwhelming. I have had to take my eye off of them. I have really tried a plethora of things to understand how to get my relationship to function in a way that is fulfilling. I can’t find it. Damn it all, I cannot.
I do know it would matter very deeply to my spouse if our marriage did not persevere. I know it would matter very deeply to Liz if our marriage did not persevere.
My own insecurities have led to a lot of unconsciously permitting myself to be a pawn. I looked to my church, my sisters, my family, my friends to tell me what to do. I don’t do that anymore. I know what I know what I know.
I am really unsure why the power struggles pop up. It is not a good place to be, this place of “Do not ask, and you will not be disappointed.” Truly my happiness is my own choice. This relationship is sorely strained. Yes, I should be able to ask for what I want, when I want it and receive either what I asked, or a “No.” No I cannot. No I will not. No, I do not want to. No, not right now.
I should be able to explain why I am disappointed without having the end of the conversation sound like “Well, I heard what you said, now let me tell you. . . . . . .let me explain. . . . . . .”
I do not like planning things on my own. I do not like having to make a variety of plans based on how my spouses may feel at any given time or day.
I do respect his opinions. I do not agree with all of them.
I no longer have the heart to respond to any event as a couple. There are times, I just want to go alone and not have to struggle with the turmoil of figuring everything out.
I will no longer make random passive aggressive threats, hoping to shake him into reality. Earlier this summer, he said he wanted to be done, so I simply said, “O.K. I will need to find a lawyer and so will you.” I got 4 references. I called 2, and e-mailed 2. Not one replied. Odd huh?! Well, a few days later he make a comment along the lines of, “We don’t need to pay 2 lawyers, so you let me know what ever yours decides, and I will go along with it.”
I have just chosen to put a permanent end to the threats. I am being proactive and making sure I know what we have, what is ours, and what can and cannot be divided. I need to have the security that I have options.
Say what you mean, and mean what you say.
I do not want my spouse to be terrified that I will leave. Any more than I want to be terrified that he will leave, or hurt himself in his anguish, something he will not be able to take back. A lifelong consequence to a decision made over a temporary problem.
I do not want to see him throw the baby out with the bath water. Maybe life is not what any of us expected. I want to hold on to the choices I made that were good; hold on to them tightly with both hands, for all I am worth. Then I want to find the wrong choices, and make new ones to turn them around.
My faith, my love of Jesus, that is what I have as a firm foundation. He made no promises that if I did the right thing my life would be a rose garden. No, actually He said it would not be easy, I would sometimes feel left alone, and it would be difficult and hard to stick on the high road.
The lyrics to this song are my encouragement lately. It brings me comfort. Choices. We all have choices. I can only make my own.
Softly and Tenderly
Will L. Thompson, pub.1880
copyright status is Public Domain
“Softly and tenderly Jesus is calling,
Calling for you and for me;
See, on the portals he's waiting and watching,
Watching for you and for me.
Come home, come home,
Ye who are weary, come home;
Earnestly, tenderly Jesus is calling,
Calling, O sinner, come home.
Why should we tarry when Jesus is pleading,
Pleading for you and for me?
Why should we linger and heed not his mercies,
Mercies for you and for me?
Time is now fleeting, the moments are passing,
Passing from you and from me;
Shadows are gathering, deathbeds are coming,
Coming for you and for me.
Oh! for the wonderful love he has promised
Promised for you and for me;
Though we have sinned, he has mercy and pardon,
Pardon for you and for me.
Exactly Liz. I would never
Submitted by SpaceyStacey197... on
Exactly Liz. I would never say something to manipulate him. He has dealt with enough of that in his life. It's funny, because he always thinks I am controlling him, when the very last thing I am doing is controlling him. I never ever want to be that person so I have made a point to always be up front with how I feel and to deal with him honestly. It's out me in some very vulnerable spots, but I feel like it's the only way to be.
it would be wrong for me to start playing games, when I am suffering from him playing games on me. I refuse to do the same back. So I am just working on me, and building my future.
Liz.....Please Hear Me
Submitted by kellyj on
I do have something to say that is very important to what you said here. This may sound like I'm nit picking or rebuffing, criticizing or pointing to fault to the content of what you said which I'm not....at all. AT ALL. lol
This has nothing to do with what you said...it has to do with one minute detail that you may not be seeing. As I say...minute possibly to you? If it were me hearing you say this one thing (3 words) as if I was Tom.....this would derail me completely and I would stop listening to you entirely the second I heard you say these words...
"I don't agree."
That's all it would take. As soon as I hear ...."I don't agree"....the wheels of competition and adversary will start kicking in BIG TIME!!! This is that ODD thing coming into play. If you want to see me come alive and take a side or a position with anyone.....say "I don't agree" and watch what happens?
Not with you or anyone here....but if my wife says "I don't agree" with an opinion of mine....look out!! The original conversation...... just took a hard right turn and now that original conversation just ended (bam!!! ) and new one just began. The one where I start arguing and taking an opposing stance. Where there was no fight to begin with....now there is. See what I'm saying?
With all due respect to you...and in an effort to point this out to you that you may not be aware of...I had this very conversation only recently with my wife...and told her the very same thing. She'd do that all the time and she couldn't understand my reaction and the reason why?
The reason why is ....it sounds like you're saying....."I don't believe you"....not...."that I have a difference in opinion."
Next to saying...."I don't believe you"......."I don't agree with your opinion"...takes a close...(if not even steven) second place at best which is the worst thing you could possibly do with me in a conversation. It's the equivalent...of saying that "your opinion is wrong and I don't believe you." Opinions cannot be wrong...it is literally (in a literal sense as well ) impossible.
The reason for this is simple. An opinion is all about your own personal feelings to anything someone else is saying. In the literal sense.....it's an "editorial" or "critique"...and you can't disagree with someone else's personal feelings can you? That's because they're personal....and now someone is telling you that they don't agree with your personal feelings and that is impossible?
If you want to find the fast lane to a fight.....there isn't any one faster than that for me. Just so you know?
I asked my wife to re-phrase "I don't agree with your opinion"..... to...."I feel differently"...because stated as such...this exactly correct. You can only "feel" differently with another persons feelings. You can't disagree with them?
I know that may not sound like a big deal or very important which is why I brought this up to you. As I hear those words reach my ears in respect to my feelings..it's all I can do just not to get angry...and hearing anything being said after that....is like hearing nothing at all?
Such a tiny thing sometimes....can make all the difference in world...and how hard is it to say...."I feel differently?" It doesn't change your position...and you are still saying exactly the same thing. You have neither lost or gained anything by doing this yourself...and since my wife started doing that....the fights because of it completely went away.....for good!!
Just so you know and for no other reason if you didn't realize this and the effect those 3 words can have?
J
Why is the onus on your wife
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
Why is the onus on your wife to say "I feel differently" instead of on you to adjust your reaction to the words "I don't agree"?
Seen As Equals.... Rosered
Submitted by kellyj on
I feel differently is "neutral". If she doesn't care that this really bothers me....then sure go right on ahead. But I told her this bothers me and please don't do this as a request. I disagree is adversarial and taking an opposing position. I feel differently says we're equals...and this is not challenging me or my position....and I am neither challenging her or taking an opposing position with her?
If she doesn't care....then Se la Vie. See what happens next time...when she wants something from me? At least...that is the unspoken attitude that comes through....as I hear it....and then silently thinking this exactly (but never saying it to because I don't want to fight )
Attitude Rosered. It shows a bad one IMHO. I think attitude qualifies as non-verbal communication and what is it....88-89% of all communication is non-verbal. It may not be important to you the speaker....but it's important to me the listener....especially when I said so up front and asked nicely....please not to?
The proof is in the tasting of the pudding as they say....the fights have completely stopped...and that is absolutely what is most important of all things to consider.
J
I also think that attitude is
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
I also think that attitude is important. In this situation, I think your attitude toward your wife is, "I'm right, you're wrong, and if you forget and don't say this things the way I want you to, I'm going to go off on you, and it will be your fault." That seems kind of a high bar for peacekeeping. If your wife is complying 100% with this request, great; what are you doing for her in return?
You hit the nail on the head!
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
That's the way it often can be .... We're supposed to change. We're supposed to change the way we talk, change our tones....we're supposed to WALK ON EGGSHELLS to protect the precious egos.
JJ this isn't directed at you. It's directed to our ADD XYZ spouses.
We're supposed to be on our guard everyday. We can't talk to them like we talk to others. When we're with others, we can say what we're thinking, even if it has a slight "tone"....or is just "saying it like it is."
It's freaking annoying to the point that we really don't want to talk to our spouses. I told my H today that I would rather NOT talk to him because it's safer than risking that some innocent statement will be taken as an insult.
I realize that H has a very damaged ego. I realize that he can't handle any words that might suggest that he's wrong. I realize that when I say that I don't agree with his opinion that in his mind he's being told that he's wrong or he's stupid. I can't even say, "let's agree to disagree."
It's tiring. No wonder why many of us prefer time away.
You hit the nail on the head!
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
That's the way it often can be .... We're supposed to change. We're supposed to change the way we talk, change our tones....we're supposed to WALK ON EGGSHELLS to protect the precious egos.
JJ this isn't directed at you. It's directed to our ADD XYZ spouses.
We're supposed to be on our guard everyday. We can't talk to them like we talk to others. When we're with others, we can say what we're thinking, even if it has a slight "tone"....or is just "saying it like it is."
It's freaking annoying to the point that we really don't want to talk to our spouses. I told my H today that I would rather NOT talk to him because it's safer than risking that some innocent statement will be taken as an insult.
I realize that H has a very damaged ego. I realize that he can't handle any words that might suggest that he's wrong. I realize that when I say that I don't agree with his opinion that in his mind he's being told that he's wrong or he's stupid. I can't even say, "let's agree to disagree."
It's tiring. No wonder why many of us prefer time away.
I disagree.....OW
Submitted by kellyj on
You said this was not directed at me but your wrong. I'm with you now and I've just joined you. We are now all here together and I feel your pain now. It's the same pain and I feel it too...there is no disagreement on my end now at all when it comes to how I feel this very moment after experiencing it once again and the sadness and disappointment of being shut out once again. I want the same thing here as you as I came to full understanding that I am not going to get what I want. Possibly ever or very a very, very long time.
What's missing here that I now know the reason for.... the path and how we both came to arrive here at the same place together is just a different one...that's all.
Spoken simply....."you" can't get there from here because I had to go from here to there and back again to get to this same place. That was the path and the journey I've been on for quite a long time and I had one more leg of the trip before I could find what I was looking for.
You'll know it when you find it. I've known the why's, the who's....for so very long...the only thing missing was the "where" and the 'what"...which makes it difficult to know where to begin looking and how to see it.
The word. The language may be different...only in interpretation.....but "the word"...is clear and there is no confusion in "the word". The path in which I had no other choice than to make...was the same one I walked here on because something was left behind that I had to go back and get.
Baggage. What I was always told in the way this word is used....is that we bring our emotional baggage with us from our past. I can tell you as of now.....this is not worded correctly and is wrong....in the real world. The "real word"..."is the true word" and wording things incorrectly only leads to misunderstanding if someone is on a different path than you are. I'm "here with you now"...but I had my own path and only I could go back and get what was missing on the same one I came in on and no one could do that for me. The language I use to describe my path, only I will ever know exactly why I had to go back to return here again the same as you.
This is the same as the definition for Attention Deficit Disorder. This may be what it looked like from the perspective of the person who came up with this name.....but implies the wrong thing and reinforces the misunderstanding that these words create right from the get go. From the moment you heard these words....before you knew anything else....you understood them to mean something the same as everyone else (including me) when I first heard them for the first time. This is part of the reason I had to go back....because what it appears like to everyone else....is not what it is. These words only reinforce what it isn't....they don't come close to telling you what it is. Only what it looks like. If you changed the name and changed the words...it would have a different meaning entirely and you then understand the language being spoken...once what is "real"...is actually being said.
The same as the words " emotional baggage being carried with us" are totally wrong because I actually discovered this as of today. The reason for this is "where" the baggage actually exists. That "bag" is full of all the damaged ego, pain,shame, sadness and anger of all these negative emotions that were left behind and wounded...that never get resolved are left discarded and dismissed as we continued to age, grow and get older in our bodies as time keeps moving in a forward direction. The pieces and fragments of our spirits, the flame in our hearts and all the good and wonderful emotions that are directly tied to the negative one left behind....remain in that baggage until we are brave enough to go back and get it. These were the ones that never got nurtured and fed because those negative emotions were like a anchor that remained attached to the past and we have to have now...in order to feel anything completely. Without what was left behind and left in those bags.....we can't carry what we have to have with us....in order to be whole and complete. These bags that get littered along the path in time...can't be carried forward with us....and are left stuck and anchored back in the past by the weight of those unresolved negative emotions which just get heavier and heavier as time goes on. That is where "it" remains until we reclaim "IT" and bring "IT" back forward in time again...to the "now." Now is real and is not a fantasy or a memory of something that "was". Now is today right this very minute as we feel things right now.
"Where and when and how far back you need to go...is as individual as you are. No one knows how far back you need to go....but as I came to find as of today....I had to go back to the very beginning starting from the day I was born. What got left behind...did not get nurtured by my mother for the very reason it didn't get nurtured in her. Her bags were full of emotions unresolved and left behind but she never looked back and never missed what was forgotten about or damaged so severely...that there was no use to try and reclaim it. She was anchored in the now....by the same denial that brought here there....and she was missing the very things that were left there forgotten. She gave me what she had....but it wasn't enough....and now I was missing those emotions that were never nurtured for the same as before. When I tried to ask or needed those from her....she didn't have them to begin with from the day I was born. You can't give someone something that you don't have or possess? And I certainly can't fault her for that much for sure....but that still leaves me holding an empty bag....and now I have to go back a get those same missing pieces that were in my emotional baggage left behind.
In another thread....Liz said she didn't understand but respected my path and let it pass and I understood why she said that because her path is completely different than the one I had to take. The language and the meaning of the words take on a completely different meaning when you have to go back....and get what was left behind.
But the last step in the process...when you finally go all the way back and you find your baggage where ever it is on the time line......is where you have to let go of all that unresolved anger...because the of the same weight that had it anchored in the past which has the key to the door... to all the good emotions left there un-nurtured.
This has been my personal journey and the path I've been on and finding that string of bags that were strewn along the way. It's been a long hard road to follow and it's taken years to get there and back. Everything I've written here on this forum was the process of doing this and making my return home again.
And you'll know it when you get there applies the same on the return trip. This is a dark and dimly lit road and the only way to navigate is by feelings and intuition. You can't know the road until you walk the path yourself. And you won't know until you get there to know that your back again and today is when that happened for me...since I now feel the full brunt of the same sadness, disappointment and heart ache as you. It's the sign that I have arrived home again....and now know what I was missing.
I'm going to have to grieve once again...as I have had to do countless times before so I know that process very well and it will only require a little more time to finally be done with journey and recover from it for at least a little while.
The sadness that I remembered from that past left behind....is now here with me again...from the same thing that created it and I'm joining all you non-ADHD sources.
I'm not a woman and can't know your paths....but I've been there and back and right now it sucks really hard. I know your pain and sorrow...and feel I've earned my place to be here with you now.
That's really the only thing you said....that I don't agree with if you can understand my path...and what "these words" means to me. The "word" is the "word"....no matter what language you speak it in.
As I attempted to speak it again ...only to be dissmissed and cut off again for saying the wrong thing or implying she was wrong or didn't know something....her dishonesty and disinguenious communication was just denying what is missing and not wanting to look at it...or shown where she was wrong.
With my wife tonight....I saw the locked door once again...and saw the empty bags she was holding...and realized what was missing and the very thing that I want for myself now....and could see how far she needed to go in order to find her baggage that was left behind. Each time she rejects me and leave me there standing...I feel the same hurt and sadness now....since I've returned with all my emotions intact and fully functioning once again. This time....I made sure to connect all the players together...and find the source for any of those lost bags in order to release all the anger...and return with everything lost and un-nuturtured with my bags fully packed.
So you see....when they say we bring our emotional baggage with us...this is not true. The only thing we bring with us....is the unresolved anger, fear, and negatively that we can't see. but the emotions that we want and need to be whole when brought back with us from the past....only takes place when we find the weights that bind us by those negative ones you finally leave behind. The good shame, the good fear and the good anger along with the sadness and all the other emotions that I experienced but were forgotten....just needs to be nurtured and grieved now since that never happened in the past. Now that I've returned for the last time since I found what I was looking for in myself....and knew it when I got here by how it felt and what my intuition is now telling me. I am together with you now......xyz and all. We're on the same page and my journey is done and I'm not going back any more. There's nothing there left to get and I no reason to do this anymore.
J
Amazing J
Submitted by c ur self on
(There's nothing there left to get and I no reason to do this anymore.)
This reminds me of my experience after loosing my 1st wife...I kept thinking and telling myself I was fine; I was whole again....Until one day; the hunger and thirst that kept pushing me back there was quenched....There was nothing left to go back for....
Praise be to one who gives life and breathe; and delivers us so completely!
C
The Art of War.....C
Submitted by kellyj on
The thing is C.....now I know exactly what to do. I have no hesitation or doubt in my mind what so ever. If someone like my wife....needs the feel the consequences. I know the worst thing you can possible do to make them feel it. This is where I see most people make the mistake of running away and moving out or getting away physically and removing themselves from the premises. That's the wrong way to go about it and nothing will ever become of that I'm telling you. All that is ...is running away yourself and kind of cowardly at that. You need to stay right where you are and bring it home to them in the language they will understand.
Think about it C......what's the worst thing you can possibly do to someone who has abandonment issues, who's been rejected and orphaned and dismissed as irrelevant and insignificant?
Using a boat analogy here. You've got dead weight in tow that's on fire and is threaten your ship....what do you do?
Throw an ice cold bucket of rejection of the fire...and you cut that line and set it adrift in a sea of nothingness and then you turn your back on it and sail off and dismiss it as dead weight and worthless. Cold rejection will wake that person up.....and dismissing them as the dead weight weight that is weighing you down and preventing your own forward progress by cutting the tether line...and then turn you back on them as if they never existed and walk away and leave them behind emotionally. You cut em' off and you don't give them a second look and leave them their in a sea of abandonment to feel the worst thing they fear and make them feel it.
But now....you've just done the same thing to yourself and that's where you need to draw your own strength in the form of you're Qi to reinforce yourself by drawing the infinite power of the universe to you to fill you up and nurture your your own flame that they've been sucking out of you. No matter how much they scream in pain an agony and come back at you in revenge for cutting them adrift and abandoning them....you don't move or flinch a muscle and stay right where you are moving away from them and leaving them behind in their own misery.
That's exactly what you do. HARD!!!! You make them feel it...and let them know you mean business...in no uncertain terms. You're on your Dojo matt....and you make the rules. That's what you do to an angry, vengeful child who's acting out and won't play right. You give them a "time out"....and lock them in their room to sit and think about it for a while.
My wife got up this morning after doing this once again and said good morning and I ignored her and didn't say a word. When she said she was leaving for work and said goodbye....I said " good bye" but never ackowleged her by even looking at her.....and I'm not saying another word. She is invisible, shallow and transparent...and that is exactly how I will mirror her back by not seeing her, only acknowledging that she exists to let her know that I know she's there....and go in my direction, do what I want to do, and take care of my needs and get them met on my own as if she doesn't exist. Cut the line, ice cold rejection, and move forward without her...leaving the dead weight behind but letting her know that you acknowledge her existence and at the same time...turning you back and walking away and abandoning her and leaving her to feel the full brunt of her own existence alone....in a sea of rejection and shame. I need nothing from her and can get everything I want in life with or without her.
Boom. Down on the ground. Throw down.... Slam bam no thank you 'maam. I don't NEED you for anything. In yo face....yo ma ma.
That's how it's done.....hard!!!! It's called...."bringing it home."
That's how you play that game of war and I know this like I know myself....that well I know it and I have no hesitation or fear in doing it. Actually.....I already did but it might take some time for that to sink in on her end before she feels it. No problem.....I can wait.
J
I forgot to Add One Important Detail
Submitted by kellyj on
In the Art of War....the consequences need to be connected to the specific action. If there is no connection to the action as to the consequence, the lesson won't be learned....each and every time they do it....specifically.
Balance is Qi
J
Harsh.
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
Harsh.
You Have to Be Unfortunately... Rosered
Submitted by kellyj on
I don't enjoy this at all. In fact...I hate it...but it has to be done. Sometimes, what is "Hard"....has to be done whether we like it or not. Just like with me and doing house chores, learning to pick up after myself and remembering to do these things. No because I didn't learn how or that I'm immature....because I have ADHD. ADHD imposes a force over me that is not of my choosing. The Art of War still applies to my ADHD. What is "Hard"....has to be done. Throw down and grow up.
You have to understand the animal you are dealing with. In terms of my wife, she is not the animal or the enemy. The enemy is within. That's who you need to be harsh with and go over with a vengeance...with "extreme prejudice". If you want to fight for the person you Love...then you need to take the fight to their front door.
Attachment Theory: Dissmissive Insecure Attachment
Dismissives will learn to get their needs for attention, sex, and community met through less demanding partners who fail to require real reciprocation or intimacy (often the anxious-preoccupied!):
Before I went to therapy and spent so much hard work and effort to become a Secure Attachment that I am now....I was an anxious-preoccupied insecure attachment which means the dismissive who see this as an opportunity to take advantage of my weakness...will be drawn to my less demanding ways by means of force to overcome me and overwhelm me. This is very predatory not unlike a pedophile who takes advantage of a child sexually because they cannot defend themselves. It's a really diabolical means stemming from a dismissive own inner weakness to do this and use this as a weapon against as they see it....a weaker individual.
There is nothing good about a dismissive methods to get their needs met. It's weak and cowardly and should be treated as harshly as humanly possible. "Extreme Prejudice" is the appropriate response to a dismissive's underhanded attempt to gain power over you. In no uncertain terms. HARSHLY!!! HARD!!!!!
They will use any means they can to get what they want...and will hit below the belt if they have to. They are cowards and cheaters and need to be dealt with directly. HARD!!!!!
Adults characterized as “dismissing of attachment” seemed unable or unwilling to take attachment issues seriously. They answered questions in a guarded way, without much elaboration, and often had trouble remembering their childhoods. They seemed to dislike and distrust looking inward. Some exhibited an underlying animosity that seemed to imply: “Why are you asking me to dredge up this stuff?” or “The whole point of this interview is stupid!” The dismissing adults spoke vaguely about their parents, frequently describing them in idealized terms. But when pressed for incidents that might illustrate such descriptions, their memories contradicted their assessments, as negative facts leaked into their narratives.
Thus, one parent called his mother “nice” but eventually revealed that she was often drunk and swore at him. When asked if that bothered him, he replied, “Not at all. That’s what made me the strong person I am today.
(remembering my mother here.....be "Nice") No!!! That's your problem...not mine!!!! lol (off comes the fridge door lol )
"I’m not like those people at work who have to hold [each other’s] hands before making a decision.”
Exactly right. When I'm at work...this is the attitude I have and it's appropriate. You expect a person who hired to the job they said they could do to do it....and not have to hold their hand. In some respects...this isn't true of course especial at first and someone is new. But after they've trained...and you take the training wheels off...it's time to go to work and not hold their hand anymore. That's because they're an adult and work demands this of them.
But used as a rationalization of their own bad behavior in any other context is cowardly and weak and misapplying something that "sounds good"...in one place....but using it another in a hostile take over attempt. This is a ruthless individual who will stop at nothing to get what they want and quality of character is not one of them.
The buried need for emotional attachment is not consciously felt by dismissive, but their need for others can show itself unconsciously:
Exactly right. They don't feel anything consciously because they can't feel their emotions or feelings buried deep down inside. They need to be dealt with severely or they will never feel anything. Harshly!!!! Wake up call!!!! Drizzel Drazzel Druzzel....In yo face!!!! Time to come home and grow up.
An avoidantly attached boy […] will probably learn to disguise his care seeking, He may become adept at using various forms of control to get another person to be there for him; he may seek out people whose needs are more apparent and who give without having to be asked.
Again...a very predatory way of going about getting others to give them something. There are two kinds of avoid ants....dismissive and fearful. The dismissive has given up trying and go the crual decietful dirty route to get their needs met.
The fearful hasn't given up...but will still keeping trying in the wrong way and take what they need without asking...and give nothing in return. That would be stealing if it were anything else or an object they want.
The way this works however...is that one may start out pre-occupied insecure...but paired with a dismissive....they will take on the role of fearful avoidant by default even though that is not there inherent tendency.
The point for me in spilling my guts here and taking a hard look at the things that come out of me in the moment without being guarded about what I said...was to see who I was becoming and where to look for the problem I was facing with myself.
Even though I had worked through my anxious preoccupied insecure attachment and started as what they call earned secure. The imposter or the pretender that has to play a role to just be with a dismissive will take on the corresponding negative insecure qualities if fear gets in the way.
This was the whole point in doing what I did. To see these qualities begin to emerge which is not who I am normally.
When you start feel like you are losing yourself and who you are....you are actually becoming one of these personalities whether you know it or not. You aren't losing yourself actually....your betraying who you are and becoming something your not just to be with a dismissive person in this example.
When that actually takes place and the transformation is over....you have now become officially co-dependent and are no longer a healthy individual any more.
This is the damage that's done to you....but you were the one who allowed to happen in the first place and you cannot blame the other person for that. Taking full responsibility for yourself and your choices. You allowed this to happen....they did not do this to you. If you think they did this to you....then your a victim with victim mentality.
No one can do anything to you...unless you allow them to.
I don't go around telling everyone these stories of my past...in fact...rarely do I ever. I didn't come here to do this as I said along time ago....I came here to see what I was becoming....not who I am. I could feel it happening to me...and my intuition was telling me something was wrong.
Look at the set of qualities as a group that a dismissive will present outwardly once they start the hostile take over.
hostility
cruelty
ruthlessness
dishonesty
coward-ess
weakness
and lack of character
This the Hyde to the Dr. Jeckal. The "evil twin". This is Mini Me...and Mini Me...is a little Fucker and needs to dealt with harshly with "extreme predudice."
Mini Me has no business in my home and where I live and belongs out in the street where it can do no damage to me.
Would you want Mini Me...anywhere near you and your marriage? I ask you....is this harsh....or not harsh enough?
J
Coming Back Here and Getting Lost in the Moment
Submitted by kellyj on
Completing this train of thought and coming full circle here and working through this....I really hate being this way and having to do anything like this or of this nature. As a ONE time thing as a means to wake someone up or even to get them to get out of their own denial and set boundaries yourself. The thing I hate most is actually having to do it.
What is hard sometimes has to be done. Fear of doing it can prevent you from doing it at all. Seeing the parts and seeing them clearly has really helped me see things for what they are as their components only...it doen't mean I would carry through on one part or the other...as if they are not the person themselves.
To make myself more clear.....as is my habit not too. lol Mot wanting Mini Me in my house...doesn't mean I'm going to pick the baby up with a pitch fork...and throw it into the fire? After all....Mini Me is not my wife and that part is clear to me.
Pulling myself out of that pretender posture and playing that fearful avoidant role myself...is going to take a little time.
Back to the Art of War again....it's a game you play with yourself....to gather the strength or summon the courage in order to do things that you are afraid of or don't like to do. It doesn't mean you get locked into one way of thinking....but it's good to keep that in mind as well.
Like I said.....having to do this....pretty much sucks but sometimes...you just have to do things anyway right?
What ever works...as long as you can keep your balance.
J
There isn't a thought a man can have I haven't had..LOL>>>>
Submitted by c ur self on
I just have to keep asking myself when I get in the position you are in....What am I hoping to accomplish with my actions, and is it love....I know it is tough love to walk away when nothing I can say will be heard are produce a product my Lord would be glorified with....
Cornered C
Submitted by kellyj on
This is the most difficult part for me to do....get over being cornered and closed in on. This is my PTSD response kicking in now. The is not operant conditioning from the past. This is being cornered with no way out and someone bearing down on you in hostility. This isn't just a knew jerk reaction. This is real.
I've heard it said that men with ADHD feel small or in my words...being cut off at the knees (feeling dominated and emasculated). This is not that at all. This a terror response just like an animal being cornered by a predator about to be killed. I have no control of this one...and there seems to be no getting around it or getting use to it.
What I said about not talking about the past or not needing to is true. Any animosity or anger (specifically ) towards my father I have dealt with and long since let go of. I know this because I've had plenty of fond memories of him and have started recalling the times that I over looked to see him offer something as a gesture.
Gestures were really as good as it got with him and even thought these things were so long ago....I'm even suddenly realizing these gestures and seeing them for what they really were. His best. The one thing that my father did not possess in his inventory was the ability to be intimate....with anyone. His best was buying you something....or possibly telling you your did a good job. Good job.
Now that may sound like I wasn't giving him credit and only seeing the bad side of him. But in reality....a few "Good jobs" is a day late and a dollar short when compared to the years of criticizing and negativity on a daily basis. Cutting you down constantly and making you feel as small as one could get.
He use to rationalize his behavior and make these bold statements' to the world (in front of our family ) like "the worst thing you can do is spoil a child." Nothing even remotely close to that did ever happen. Even that...I forgive him for and see it for what it is.
But when you have night terrors constantly for years growing up (the one consistent dream and it was always the same) " a bear....a tiger....a mountain lion.....or any large predator stalking you and attacking you to eat you and right when their teeth are sinking into your flesh....you wake up screaming in a cold sweat.
This comes from real life experience....with a father doing this to you and corning you and hitting and screaming at you. (starting at age 4 until I was too big to do that too )
That right there my friend....is PTSD...not an emotional issue or some latent unresolved anger. I've been trying very hard to keep this in the fore front of my mind so I will remember it when I get that kind of hit. That's a different kind of hit and it's not about fear. It's about terror and fight and flight that singles you are about to die.
There was a while...when just the sound of my wife's voice...caused to start and jump. I'd be working and she would come up behind me and just say my name I would get an electric shock that would run from the top of my head to my toes and leave my head tingling.
I know this is not common or normal for everyone and not even for me. But this "start response" and the resulting panic attacks from it....did not appear again until just recently in the past few years. I realized this is due to anxiety....but it was years ago when this kind of anxiety had ever emerged again.
I have begun to understand better.....there's a differance between someone just being angry....and one that agressively hostile. Hosility is a different animal entirely as I'm saying this. Prolonged hostility and reactionary sudden bust of anger that appear to me as out of control....feels like I'm being cornered and creates this kind of reaction in me. I'm never anrgy or hostile back in the case....until a person gets to close me while doing this at the same time. There is nothing I can do about this response as far as I can see...since it gets kind of burned into the pathways or your brain...and just light up when the intensity gets too much.
This I see as different than emotional lability since I can completely calm and relaxed and not even angry for this to happen. I'm not a jumpy person and don't start easily. It takes a very specific thing...done in a very specific way for this to ever happen to me.
Somehow....my wife has either keyed into this...or is just the way she is....but her hostility (not anger) is the thing that sets this into motion. I have to be cornered, someone coming at me...and have no where to run or get away for this ever to happen to me.
This was what I actually came here to find out about as I called it...."a very special kind of anger." Actually...this is terror....the anger is about defense and fear and is not about aggression on my part.
This is exactly like someone sneaking up on your and startling you on purpose. It's not tied to anything...cognitive distortions....childhood emotional issues or otherwise. It's an electric shock (instantaneously) that you can't do anything for or get around or change by any kind of CBT or therapy as far as I can tell. And I haven't had any issues with this in my adult life...until I met my wife and am confronted with something that hits that button so hard...it sets this into motion.
It's has the flavor of deep animosity, hostility, rage and hatred.....not just being mad or angry. I can feel it, and my radar knows the difference....that's all I can say. It's hatred....not my hatred either....that's all I can say. I really have looked into this deeply and tried to find anything I actually "Hate" in any on going or consistent way. And I can honestly say...the best I've ever come up with is some unresolved anger....at best?
It's a difficult thing to talk yourself out of feeling "hated" and trust that person Loves you anyway?
Good job in my fathers case....kind of fell flat there too. Long gone resolved or anything left over. Nothing left as I said. But this one is different. The one is morbid fear directly in relationship to rage and hatred which are too things on that level....I do not carrying around with me. This the effect of someone with ASPD which was my father unfortunately which is defintley not me.
But the cornered and closed in on and picking up hatred at the same time....there;s nothing in my arsenal...to tell my brain this isn't the same thing. An electric shock is different than being angry or emotionally lible and losing your temper which I've had to seperate this in order to actually know what this is. It's never been a problem....until recently in my past....but again....that's the only reason to even bring my father up again...since forgiveness and letting go or unresolved anger doesn't do a thing for PTSD. All I can do is manage anxiety....I can't make this effect go away. It's burned in there for good and those pathways are fried.
J
I do hear you
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
J,
I do understand what you said.
I would love to feel the comfort and safety and the freedom to just talk. Each sentence in a conversation must be measured and calculated and pre-thought so as not to be mis-understood. That is a whole lot of effort. That is a whole lot of work. That is why the cost of having a conversation is so high. One mis-step, and there is no getting back to neutral ground. :
None of these are the same words as :
I have a firm belief that if I am just talking, and am not using condescending posturing nor an angry voice, then that is the best I choose to do.
This is where the relationship thing enters the picture. It sorta starts to pile up. It sorta controls my ability to just be me.
This is a matter of feeling respected and honored. Agree to disagree. With my spouse, I desired to get deep into those 4th and 5th levels of communications. Beyond informational niceties We cannot even get into emotional experiences. I take full responsibility for my own perceptions. I assert no responsibility on anyone's experience but mine.
I have written about the issue many times before. If we don't agree, it seems to follow that someone has to be wrong. Why?
What I know, is when I feel the temperature of a conversation rise, an inferno has been known to follow, and I am singed as much as I want to be singed.
So I choose - I make a very conscious choice - to walk away. In some aspects it can be a relationship issue. My responsibility is I do not agree, I see it differently, I don't share the same opinion. My spouse's responsibility is how he experience's my opinion. I do not like feeling as though my thought are wrong. they are just different. they are still valuable. To me.
Very truly,
Liz
I Had a Feeling....Liz
Submitted by kellyj on
That you might say something like this and I totally understand. Answering to what Rosered speculated as possibly being my issue as well......"right and wrong" is meaningless and irrelevant to me. Just so you know.
In fact....the whole "black and white"...."good or bad"...."yes or no" and nothing in between drives me bonkers. I am almost firmly in the middle on most everything. That has more to do with my position...and in mostly anything but neutral is really uncomfortable with me. People who are extremely invested in a extreme position...or one that has to take sides...whether it is political or otherwise I have a hard time being very assertive with. In fact....I hate taking sides? Why? It's so aggressive and mostly angry and negative towards the opposite side?
That is....unless I have to take a position which I would always rather not to be honest. I am constantly searching for resolutions first....in almost everything and make a better mediator...than I do an adversary unless it's in a sporting event.
In sports....you've got the green light to "throw down". I will end conflict in a hurry when I've got the green light and it's appropriate. lol No problem. No confusion there and it's expected to be that way. But off the field or otherwise....I never want to "throw down" so to speak.
But coming from the middle...and not liking confrontation...and then you get with someone who just loves to debate and be contrary. I almost hate to do that...unless debate is the thing you like to do and this is said so. I did fine in debate in school since you've got those structured guidelines. Free form debate is just arguing as far as I can see and hate arguing almost like the plague. But for some, I have found...they love to be contrary and love to argue and debate over anything and everything and that's not my thing and I tend to move away form that instead of going towards it. I would rather walk away from a fight and let the other person win if it's that important to them...unless I have no other choice and there are only two to choose from. If someone is unwilling to compromise or negotiate and hates to do both.... that leaves me no other choice if "no" is always the first answer for everything. Negotiation seems to be a skill that my wife never learned and taking things by force seemed to be the only way things happened in her family as far as I can tell. Force being....who ever gets there first and or taking the advantage instead of asking or negotiation but she is really doing better here since I think she really had no experience where she didn't have to do that before? This is what it seems like to me from what I've gathered in context?
Adversarial is adversarial.....right and wrong has little or nothing to do with it. Winning or losing has everything to do with being adversarial....in that respect....but I guess I converted right and wrong into winning or losing instead when considering ADHD and being oppositional. Oppositional is not doing the opposite of what someone wants as I see it....that's just being contrary and contrary drives me crazy!!!
Oppositional is adversarial and going against...not doing the opposite for an opposite goal?
Fighting for the same goal (prize) and both are competing to win that prize is adversarial and how ODD played out for me as a child. No right and wrong when it comes to winning if winning at all costs is the goal? That's one up manship and competitive....not going in the opposite direction?
In fact....I've said I won't ever get into a debate about abortion and there's a really good reason why. As far as I'm concerned....they should have a special election with women only voting and call it good....done deal. I want nothing to do with something that I have nothing invested in and I don't know what I'm talking about?
But the point I was also making with Rosered and having ADHD? Being oppositional is a part of my ADHD that I would have gladly gone without as I see how I got that way. Working with me on that part...is also part of working with me connected to my ADHD. How I see it....I not asking her to like it or even accept it..."as is". I'm asking her to help me by working with me...even if she doesn't understand it or I can't give a valid reason (coming from valid being someone who doesn't have ADHD) and just trust that this is something that will help...and not have a need for me to prove it to her...or give her a reason that I don't have to give.
But as I hear you and Rosered speculate that I might be taking that...."do this or else" .....or you are saying.."you are wrong...you have this all screwed up. I know what I'm talking about"?
Remove the word "you" from the any of those speculations....and now add...."trust me. I know what I'm doing."...."listen to me....I need you to trust me on this"...."quit saying "you" every time we disagree...and quit this black and white....only two options or two choices for everything business. Either everything if fine...or everything is falling apart?"
How about....everything is fine except this one thing I don't like? That's how approach her in this example about saying "I feel differently"...and that;s all I'm asking of you?
If someone came to me and said...."do this or else".....I think or else would come in a hurry and it wouldn't be me on the receiving end of it. Thinking about sports again...and "throwing down." lol
I am not demanding....and I don't make demands....ever. Unless I'm at work, in sport, a coach, on a boat...or anytime where the job actually calls for it...by design, in a structured format that everyone is following and understanding? That's different. That's a hierarchy system that is approved and understood. As far as I can see....being authoritarian really has no place in a marriage but that is just me and I know that others don;t feel the same as I do in that respect. I have no problem being that way if I need to...but if I don't need to....then neutral is the best and safest place to me and where I am most comfortable.
And that's because....I hate it when someone does that with me....unless in that hierarchy kind of system I was talking about...but I will take the lead or I'll follow, and do any job I'm asked of...as long as it's spelled out ahead of time and everyone is on the same page. Not hard to figure out? lol
Thinking further here. If my wife came to me and said...."I want a man who will take charge and make decisions for the both of us...and be that kind of authority over me and that's where I am most comfortable so I will never have to worry and always feel protected and safe...never have to make decisions, never have to confront anyone...and do all my fighting for me so I won't have to."
I would have said....."next"
And if she had come to me and said..."I want a man who will let me take charge of everything and not stand in the way of what I want and do what everything he's told and demand of him and never question me. Now down on your knees and serve me you squirmy little toad... and kiss my boots of shiny leather."
I would have run as fast as I could the other way!!! lol
Liz, I totally respect your
Submitted by dedelight4 on
Liz, I totally respect your position and path. The part I have some trouble with, with my relationship, is that there are times I need help and encouragement also, and to never...NEVER get that from the one you are married to is an extreme way to live. Just dont get sick, dont have needs, and dont ever,ever become old or disabled. Most spouses of adhd'ers here are relatively still mobile and healthy, that wont always be the case, such as in my condition, and THERE is a huge test of reliability. Many of the spouses here may not there when, and if, that time comes, and it will. Denial of it, or hoping for the best wont work, and even working for the best often doesn't work. The adhd spouse STILL needs to do work on themselves.
Liz, I totally respect your
Submitted by dedelight4 on
Liz, I totally respect your position and path. The part I have some trouble with, with my relationship, is that there are times I need help and encouragement also, and to never...NEVER get that from the one you are married to is an extreme way to live. Just dont get sick, dont have needs, and dont ever,ever become old or disabled. Most spouses of adhd'ers here are relatively still mobile and healthy, that wont always be the case, such as in my condition, and THERE is a huge test of reliability. Many of the spouses here may not there when, and if, that time comes, and it will. Denial of it, or hoping for the best wont work, and even working for the best often doesn't work. The adhd spouse STILL needs to do work on themselves.
Stacey
Submitted by kellyj on
I was reflecting on what you said and something hit a nerve. I didn't want to get off topic with Liz ....only in what I might have imputed into your thread may shed some light on things to compare to. If any use at all?
The nerve however....has nothing to do with ADHD. It has to do with my past marriage and ex-wife which shared one thing you said here in common with your H. Apathy.
What I have never done with my wife (ever) is tell her how perfect my past relationships were...only in that I can see the positive things in them as the people they were and might share a occasional memory but never comparing them to my wife and seeing them as a regret or loss I wish I still had?
I have to tell you....I saw that in my ex as well. Recalling past happiness with her past relationships (even seeing one of her ex boyfriends who I had met before occasionally in her business which always was suspect to me and made me feel uneasy)
This other thing you said that hit that same nerve...was the part about threatening to leave and keeping you on the brink as it appears?
I have said this about my wife now in her threats to leave....but these other signs are not there with her. I see her doing this out of frustration and more of a panic kind of reaction in the moment...but returning to her senses and being "in the relationship" again. She definitively has a cyclical nature to her moods and these events that seem to cycle in a pattern....and I even experienced this cycle along with her for a while (was questioning my own emotions for a while)...until I separated myself from her emotional instability and got mine back on track.
Mine I know about and are familiar....hers were not and not something I have recognized exactly even though similar to mine in some ways...and not in others?
Anyway....going back to your H and what you were saying. Apathy...could be inattentive ADHD or ADD and apathy might not be exactly it.
On the other hand....the things you've shared here along with these others things actually appeared to be very similar to my ex-wife who was there....but not really there, for years until she finally left me.
Ironically...I was improving in all respects with therapy and things were looking up for me. The more I improved...the more different ways my ex-wife found to point fingers at to keep her right where she was with that same apathy involved.
The two most telling things for me that my ex-wife said as well at the end only like Dedes husband. As she said it...."I never wanted to married...I only did because you did." (completely untrue but no arguing that with her....that's just a rationalization to remove the guilt she was feeling about wanting to leave)....and the other one where I actually asked..'is this not good enough for you?" And her answer was...."I want more."
These things seem to appear the same...along with the apathy that says I just not "in the game."
Just so you know....the other day...my T must have really reached something in my wife...because her attitude has taken a paradigm shift in improvement and I cannot deny the improvement in her. I may have hit that hard "shame" nerve in her enough...for her to take this to my T and talk with him about it.
All I know is what I did.....I know my T and what he does...and see the change in my wife along with her willingness to do it...and now the results that I see.
Apathy...is not what I see?
Actually....all things said and done which I have resisted doing before until now so I could be sure...is pointing right at Bi-Polar in my wife...just like her mother. The symptoms are there but they also look like ADHD as well but not exactly the same. I see those differences now...if I wasn't able to see them before without doing what I have done here just to make sure.
So you might consider everything I said here (the entirety of what I've said concerning my wife) in referencing to the context of a dual diagnosis and pointing at Bi-Polar as the reason for her denial (as I strongly feel NOW without a professional diagnosis)
I really don't like diagnosing people especially my wife....but my gut wasn't letting go of it....and I'm listening to it more and more and it's been pretty good at telling me things lately. What it was saying was something was wrong and in this case it's not me. I came here to make sure of that and I'm going with my intuition this time. The very last thing I ever wanted to do...was come here and blame or accuse my wife of the wrong thing even if I have speculated on other things that I'm seeing the correlation. Speculating with some new found information and a little help from some friends.
If you look at me and what I've done here in comparison to your H.....apathy I'm confident in saying....is not an ADHD symptom but I wouldn't want to steer you away of at least considering the inattentive ADHD as possibly being what you are actually seeing. Not to get your hopes up....but to sure before you see the wrong thing or read his behavior.
I'm seeing this the way you are right now....but I don't know enough to say for certain....unless I did what I came here for and time spent researching and self exploring (along with all my past experience and having ADHD w/denial) to be so bold to actually say this about my wife and be somewhat confident in that conclusion even tentatively as it is.
The only thing I can say that you might consider here....is that I'm predominantly hyperactive and impulsive not as much (even though some) inattentive. I was much more this way before on Adderall however...and the inattentive part if any....was completely over shadowed by those symptoms before which have diminished so much to the point....that my symptoms now appear to be mild inattention and not much else except a few bad habits and a couple of behavioral traces of the past...that appear to be fading over time as well.
The interesting thing about this for me...was coming here for my anger....and now the only thing left on the table is my wife's but that seems to suddenly gone away...after she went to see my T. She did admit however....that many of the things I said to her in anger....she is actually admitting to and saying she sees the parts in her own thinking that were wrong in the moment...and at the time.
The only point in telling you this is not to make you feel bad....but only a caution not to use my wife now in context to your own in any way. We've got a pretty unique situation here....but that doesn't scare me a bit. I neither happy or sad about my wife having Bi-Polar (tenatively)....but I am well equipped to deal with something that I have a lot of my own personal insight into already.
I just needed to know that I wasn't completely crazy and off base...in feeling this was not all about me and my ADHD. Having that point of reference....has kind of stopped the ground from moving underneath me.
But what you said about being around other people and having a good time..will bring out some happiness that you can capitalize on. I don't want to say I'm sorry as much as I want to say "stay positive" yourself but don't be blind either (like I was). You can't go wrong there no matter what happens.
Who knows?
J
I think my H ADHD is mixed.
Submitted by SpaceyStacey197... on
I think my H ADHD is mixed. He has an incredible ability to be hyperfocused, so much so that 6 hours can pass and he thinks its been maybe 45 minutes. Generally, he is ONLY like this when it comes to video games (which I think are his bane because of his inability to see how deeply they affect him plus he rush of his very real talent in playing them). I use those specific numbers not as an exageration, but as an example of an actual experiment. One saturday he was playing his game (and I have no problem with this game or him playing it - with some caveats). I asked him to start trying to pre-determine how long he was going to play (as our therapist had suggested since he has very little ability to control himself with them). I didnt give him a time limit or anything - I simply asked him to determine how long he was going to play and then stick to it (walk away) at that self imposed limit as practice in self control. He agreed and was kind of enthusiastic about it. So he said "I only want to play for 45 minutes to an hour, just to relax for a little while and then we can hang out and do what ever". I said "cool - have fun!" and proceeded to read my book for a while. As the afternoon slipped by, I got up, did some chores, read some more, took a shower, etc... never saying a word. That 45 minutes to 1 hour was LOOONG passed. I decided to "check in" and ask him how long he thought he had been playing so far, and he said about 1/2 an hour. I had to show him that he had actually been playing for 6 hours. I think it was an eye opener for him! His hyperfocus is almost preternatural when it comes to gaming. He also can get that way playing card games - and instead of retreating into the game, he can get pretty nasty and competetive. To the point that I decided to walk away from a game at a friend's house as he was getting really mean towards me and I just wasnt enjoying myself anymore and didnt like being the object of his scorn. He got so deep into the game that he didnt realize he was acting that way. Now - it took a few times, but once he saw it happening he did apologize and that is a good, gentlmanly thing to do on his part. He did try to NOT get that way in subsequent games when I was able to give him gentle reminders that yes - this IS a game and no you dont have to be mean (to me - not to anyone else thankfully). I think some of it is he is extremely good in his video games and this particular card game, so it gives him a high. I can understand that - but that hyperfocus becomes a detriment to everything else in his life because it takes over. (He point blank told me at one point in our relationship that World of Warcraft was more important to him than me - and this was at a time when I needed him most, about 1 month after my ex had died tragically). There have been times when I have walked in the room and he didnt even notice i was there (even though I was .. lets say dressed to impress) and I ended up just walking out of the room because he would not even reply to me when I tried to get his attention. Hyperfocus for sure. If he could learn to harness that and control it versus the objects of that focus controlling him- good god he would be unstoppable at anything he wanted to accomplish.
And then he also can be extremely inattentive, with the whole ignore, not follow through and having apathy to things in general. With me, extreme inattentiveness. He knows I have needs and he knows what they are, as I have been very detailed with what I really need for support, love etc with the help of our therapist. He tends to not follow through with commitments, getting excited about something at first, and then as soon as that wears off - forget it, mostly with me - but not limited to me. Even with his fighting, which he has been doing for 20 years and which he claims to love - he doesnt love it enough to step up to the next level - which he claims is his biggest goal. I think there is a born laziness in him (his words not mine but i agree) that controls him. He doesnt like having to do the work for anything, and expects things just to happen and he is supposed to just receive. He once told me that he felt like he should be able to do and say anything and it should not affect me at all. That he should not have any responsibility in our relationship whatsoever. I explained to him if that is the case then I am the WRONG woman to be with. He said he would work on it. And he did - while it was still new and interesting. It was enough to keep me on the hook for the time being. I think he really doesnt understand the concept that you have to work at things, be it a fighting career, your day job, relationships etc. Its not just gonna happen because you want it to, or because you say you want something - you have to get off your ass and DO it. Work on it. Feed it. Hone the skills. Get up after a failure and KEEP GOING.
I love him - I really do. But I find myself angry and resentful. I find myself feeling.. "less than" when he shows that extreme focus on other things, when what is most important (or should be) is unraveling. I feel like a cart horse, who is pulling the entire load while my team mate is just standing there and cant be bothered. My H has real problems with control - thinking everyone is trying to control him, but I think the real problem is he has no self control. No ability to regulate himself, so he is literally victim to what ever whim crosses his mind. He is laid flat by every voice in his head, every "feeling" he has - including the feeling of nothing. I also think he lies to himself on what he really wants. I think inside he truly wants alot of things that he cannot reach because other parts of him tell him he cant have it - and its just to hard to fight those feelings. Which to me is very sad. I know those parts of him will never accept the truth of who he is - the good that I and other see in him. He lets that negativity affect every aspect in his life and he uses it to excuse his bad behavior. "I recently was told this by someone, so now i am smoking a pack a day versus my 1 cigarette every 2 hours that I said I was smoking" - here we have 2 examples of bad behavior being excused by "hearing something from the past recently". 1. excusing the lack of control to his own stated promise to himself of only smoking 1 cigarette every 2 hours and 2. lying to me and to himself about how much he was really smoking. And he sees me pointing this out as controlling him, versus lack of his own self control. My H has so much talent = raw and untamed for so many things, and has so much to offer himself and everyone around him - but all he sees is negativity and excuses, all stemming from himself. I dont know how to help him break out of that rut. But it breaks my heart to watch.
However....
A couple of things today though - even though last night was a long, very wakeful night (my little dog had to go out and was restless), we had gone to bed late (we have his daughter, her friend and his mom in town) and he had to get up 3 hours earlier than normal (to take the girls to an event) he STILL got the chores done, managed to get the leaves up from the backyard (that has not been done in over a year!) and then actually came to me this afternoon and said that he was sorry he didnt get as much done today since he was feeling off....... (I was so shocked - i almost could not respond). So I told him that I thought he did a fantastic job today, that I knew he had a hard night and a way to early morning and that he got way more done than I would have expected. I said he should feel good about what he accomplished. Honestly - I dont know who he is right now! Believe me I am NOT complaining, I am REALLY proud of him, and really happy that things are getting done (after years of begging its incredible to see what he has done this week). He has functioned as a man fullfilling his role and responsibilities in the home versus someone who is just there for a free ride. I really hope that he feels as good about what he has done as I do about it. And again - I KNOW that he is leaving, and I wont trick myself into thinking that has changed. But I will certainly be very very happy if he is starting to turn a new leaf and create a true self worth. In other words, I hope he is starting to see what HE can accomplish when he decides to just DO what he says instead of only talking about it.
I am crossing my fingers that he will go to practice this week and that he will step it up and start practicing his foot work and sword work at home like he promised his teachers. The only thing holding him back is himself - lack of self dicipline and selfcontrol. Not skill or talent. But sometimes - that control and dicipline is more important and thats what seperates those who actually attain their goals and dreams from those who claim that they didnt have the chance.
***shaking my head in wonder right now - for reals***
Oh - and last night? he actually "liked" something I posted on social media. I know its dumb - but I am utterly shocked. SHOCKED I tell you!
Consequences Stacey
Submitted by kellyj on
That video I pulled up with Kendra Harrison failing to make the Olympic team...and then turning around and setting a new world record only a week later (though not exactly the same) probably did motivate her to pull one off from that failure for sure. But what you mentioned about being good at the card and video games caught my attention. You are right....being good at something will make you do it more having ADHD. The problem is learning how to stop and not keep doing it until something else gets in the way. That something else needs to be a consequence you can feel or stings a little. I took that right off of Dr Barkley you tube videos on ADHD and I cannot deny that this is absolutely true. There has to be some kind of consequence for doing the thing he loves or is good at....or he won't stop doing it or curtail that behavior. I have had so much failure lately....my motivation level is really high right now!! lol It's only because I really haven't had the chance to really pursue those things that give me that kind of reward (time off time) and I realized when you said that really...the only thing I have been successful at lately...is just finally taking care of all the shit everywhere and getting rid of it all once and for all. I can't tell you how unrewarding (int the sense of doing something your good at) really is.
Of course it's satisfying and I'm really glad to get things back looking good (and my wife's happy about it too)....but it;s not the same thing as doing something you love, your good at...and successful all at the same time. My motivation is to get it done faster and work harder and longer..so I can do those other things that it sounds like your H is doing. (it's a lot of physical lifting and labor type work so it's really not all that fun or exciting no matter how successful I am with doing it. You can only be so good at doing that kind of work. lol )
If you look at that relationship....it might give you some clues?
J
Light Bulb....Ding
Submitted by kellyj on
I'm not going to keep doing this anymore...but I did just realize now....and suspect ADHD for my wife possibly not Bi-Polar. Going with this new assumption....I can tell you why my wife interrupts now along with the subsequent behavior that do come after that (just realized ...Ding ) Good to know the difference in what you are seeing. Narcissist or ADHD?
A Narc will get angry or offended (how dare you) for calling them out of pointing to their behavior. Me....along with ADHD person (now thinking my wife even more....I don't know much about Bi-polar?) but.
None the less ( the part I barely remember in which T-farmer was pointing out....those interuptions are because of the hit your taking (the sting) and feeling the consequences..... along with the impulsive need to make it stop by interrupting what your saying (even if you don't realize this is what you are doing) as a means to manage the sting when it becomes too much to handle.
Like I said....my need to do this is almost non existent...so the impulsive need to interrupt or stop the sting when being called out on the symptom manifests itself by preventing it from hurting more. (the interruption itself)
When my wife pulls out the laundry list and goes over it one line at a time ( of my behavior ) I have a hard time not stopping here since it's starts to build up with just the repetitive going over it...again...and again...and again.
I realized this when I caught myself (again) from interrupting her when she was doing this with me (again) and that poking the hornets nest behavior as a means to (??????) which is all just more defensive mechanisms.
I normally don't have to stop myself from interrupting people any more and that was the first symptom I ever addressed. Except with my wife since this is the only time I do that but even then,....can stop myself but it's comes on quicker when someone is poking the same sore spot over and over for a longer period of time.
bingo.
For what it's worth...and whom ever might need this tid bit. This does fit my wife pretty well indeed now that I can apply it. Even I didn't recognize it anymore....since it looked like something else...even to me?
Special Relativity. That's my new name for our relationship. lol Okay...done deal. No need to keep doing this but that one was such a thorn of a mystery to me that I now can see. Good for anyone else trying to solve that puzzle too? Maybe easier to see than I can due to that special relatively.
Back to work:)
J