...but I love him. ??? | ADHD and Marriage

i agree

Submitted by rosenkopf on Fri, 04/15/2016 - 17:42

this is a very brave and honest summary of the reality...all the best!

Reminds me of my mother...

Submitted by Delphine on Fri, 04/15/2016 - 19:33

My Dad had borderline personality disorder (BPD). Out of control rage is one characteristic. Dad could be violent both physically and verbally toward my Mom and all of us.

When I was in my 20's I asked my mother point blank if she loved him and she said very definitely, "Yes." I found that hard to believe. Your insights make sense, jennalemone. Here is one more.

If we find ourselves in these kinds of relationships, we need to take a hard look at our past, especially our family of origin. In my mother's case, for example, her father would beat her when she was a baby. He was out of the picture early on, but that kind of thing leaves its mark, even if it is buried in our subconscious, and we tend to repeat the experience in our later relationships, as my mother did with my Dad.

I've mentioned Ho'oponopono several times on this board. I don't think most here can relate to it, but the premise of this simple Hawaiian problem-solving practice is that all problems we are currently experiencing, are memories replaying in the subconscious. The Ho'oponopono mantra, "I am sorry, please forgive me, thank you, I love you" is said to the Divine within us, to cleanse those memories and thus heal the difficulty in one way or another. Usually it doesn't happen immediately, but it starts the process of turning things around until eventually you find yourself in a much better place than before. I have experienced this working for myself.

Anyway--plenty of info on this online if anyone is interested in looking it up. I won't bring it up again because I don't want to seem like a zealot (I probably do already)!

Thanks Delphine

Submitted by jennalemone on Sat, 04/16/2016 - 23:05

I have been saying silently, "I love you, I am sorry, please forgive me, thank you." since you posted this. It brings me to a place that seems more like the real me I used to know before I was married. Before I felt crazy and confused, trying too hard with no results for too long. I will keep doing it for a while. My craziness comes from his gaslighting and his manipulations and lack of effort. My defense has been to be angry. It seems like he wants me to be angry.....or at least does not care about my well-being. Anyway, saying in my mind, "I love you, I am sorry, please forgive me, thank you." gives me a freedom from anger and from his need to win and control. During another heated moment with H, I say it silently to the world in my heart, to Life, to myself, to every blessing that I take for granted. I say it to the dog, to the house, to the nighttime sky, to my parents's souls. The repetition gives me a peace. It really is what I MEAN to say most often. It is brilliant. I always have had a "coming home" feeling to the tropics and Hawaii. Thanks. Ho'oponopono.

Liz, I want to say something to you but have no words. It seems you try so hard in finding solutions and connection and a healthy relationship. You seem to be walking on eggshells and trying to take the high road with integrity. I am sorry you are going through this. It seems like you are doing all the work.

A song just came up on Pandora, "Say Something, I'm Giving up on You." It seems appropriate for me tonight.

Yet, the Ho'oponopono mantra gives me a good place in my head....a coming-home-to-my-heart-feeling. A prayer mantra of loving forgiveness and the acceptance that nothing is perfect. Love, and the pity of the world's hurt, and the acceptance of imperfection, and gratitude. I don't have to try to be perfect. I don't have to try to be better yet anymore. I can just be. And be content and happy. I can leave this failing relationship saying, "I love you, I am sorry, please forgive me, thank you". I can do that without malice, or selfishness, or bitterness and with integrity.

Thank you too jennalemone

Submitted by Delphine on Sun, 04/17/2016 - 04:48

jennalemone, thank you for sharing about your Ho'oponopono practice. You well described the groundedness it confers, as well as the transcendence.

Want to address this:

Before I felt crazy and confused, trying too hard with no results for too long. I will keep doing it for a while. My craziness comes from his gaslighting and his manipulations and lack of effort. My defense has been to be angry. It seems like he wants me to be angry.....or at least does not care about my well-being.

As we all here know, the need for stimulation is part of ADHD, and naturally, this includes arguments/fights. When I was in mediation with my ADHD ex, to enforce visitation rights with my then six year old son (I had agreed to sharing custody after we split, and then he and his new partner decided it was too inconvenient for them), he said something very interesting that I've been pondering ever since. That our relationship disintegrated "after she became positive." Yes, the pain and angst of trying to have a decent relationship with a then-undiagnosed ADHD partner had led me to seek recourse in spirituality and learning of the law of mind action, i.e. what you put out is what you get back. We were still fighting on and off, but more and more I was taking the high road. I had not yet encountered the Ho'oponopono teaching, but it seems I meditated, prayed and affirmed myself out of that relationship. I was no longer feeding his need for conflict and stimulation. As he said, we grew apart when I "became positive" because our vibes had become too different. To be clear, separation was not my aim at that time. I still hoped we could grow together and be a family. It was his choice to run to another relationship, and he married her within months of our separation. I didn't mourn the split for too long. Being apart from my son was difficult, but I do feel I chose the right course with sharing custody, for a lot of reasons including financial. By the way, mediation worked to enforce visitation, and ultimately relations with son's dad and stepmom became quite friendly and supportive.

Anyway, if it seems your partner wants you to be angry, consider that it is likely because, again, it plays into his need (probably not conscious) for drama and stimulation. You don't have to play that game--you don't need to dance to his music.

lulu8, thank you too for your lovely comments and recognition of my helpful intent in sharing about Ho'oponopono.

Liz, all best wishes to you for resolution of your marriage issues.

Blessings to all,

Delphine

And Once Again, Love Makes the World Go Round - reposted

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Sun, 04/17/2016 - 18:25

jennalemone,

Yesterday was indeed a difficult day. I removed my original post. I canceled my account here. (It said my actions could not be undone, so I came to verify it - and it is not gone- - - -so maybe it will be gone in 24 hours. Who knows.)

I am re-posting my reply from the other day. It is what pushed my spouse over the edge. It was what caused me to think my joy and benefit in participating here on the forum was far outweighed by the pain it causes him when he reads what I post. Since this is an ADHD and Marriage forum- - - - I can say with clarity that I am not accomplishing improving my marriage. I really am not strong enough to handle the emotional backlash it causes to me - - -and despite my difficulties in understanding ADHD, I am crushed that it hurts my spouse so much. I was hopeful when he joined here, and even more hopeful when he started posting.

I am human. And my emotions were trampled yesterday. On top of trying to deal with the reality that I won't get my Early Childhood Education degree until June 2017. . . . .Oh, I could, but I would have to take on a full time college schedule for both this Summer and next Fall - - and that would equal student teaching, while juggling life, and the full time college schedule. That craziness I will not choose to do at age 56. And whamo, now piled on top is selling our house, paying 2 lawyers to divide up our stuff because he is: 'not' f**ked up, my expectations are too high, all his counselors and my sister tell him I am unappeasable, and he was told he is not in denial. Emotionality is my layman's guess. But vehemently flung at me in anger over what? This:

This gal, this one that lives in NE Ohio does love her spouse. It is some of the behaviors that I actually hate. And that is where I have made some personal decisions about what Liz needs. These are not demands. These are not ultimatums. These are not meant to manipulate. They are meant to communicate to my spouse that I have thought clearly about things, and there are some behaviors that I will no longer tolerate. And if our relationship is ever to get on that track to a happy ending, he really will have to choose to want to understand how I feel, and want to make some changes.

It is a difficult thing to learn how to have my own set of 'standards' - I guess that is a good word - because I have grown and matured to the place where my wants and needs are valuable to me, and the best way to state my case is - I want to be heard.

I do have hope . . . . that our relationship can emerge as something fruitful. The fantasy that I have chosen to let go of is this: Liz can read enough books, and attend enough seminars, and participate in enough 'marriage repair' courses, and change enough to make this work. I did all those things. It didn't make it work. The effort was not wasted, as the gold at the end of the rainbow is this - I am content with Liz. I pray the marriage I have can be brought around to a thing of beauty, and if it cannot, I will survive and know that I know that I know that I did everything within my power to get it right.

What exactly am I looking to find?

The words of encouragement that say "I want to find a way to meet your needs.
To hear: "I believe you love me, and are wanting what is best for me.
To hear: "I have some things to work on and I am glad you are supporting me as I work on them."

I have gone through years of counseling, Al-Anon, recovery from eating disorders, self-help books and programs, Christian marriage counseling, 'ADHD and Marriage' marriage counseling, Retrovaille - the last resort counseling for marriage at the end of their rope, and my marriage is at a stalemate.

Some specifics I am referring to:

1. There is a lot of time spent in taking care of - storing - stuff. We have a whole barn that is just a holding place for stuff. That renders it unusable for being a workshop. And ensuring power struggles over space.

2. I do not want to deal with emotions that are demonstrated in anger. They may be resentment/anxiety/fear/doubt/disappointment, yet they all look like anger. And are expressed in angry words spewed in a defensive posture.

3. I want to know that my feelings are acknowledged and respected. Current conflicts are met with: "OK, but. . . . . . ." No doubt about it, it is difficult to compromise. No doubt about it, conflict resolution is hard. Some one does not have to be right and the other party wrong. That frame of mind is not a pleasant atmosphere in which to try to feel comfortable.

4. Denial.

5. Living 24/7 in a business. There is not a way to get a break from it - after 32 years - it is overwhelming. After 32 years, there needs to be some reality checks on what is going right. . . .and what is not.

I continue to go forward. Working towards my college degree. Embracing the things that are valuable to me. I am not more valuable than my spouse and he is not more valuable than me. We really are two imperfect people trying to enjoy life.

Sharp Edges. That is a description I read a while ago by Melissa Orlov. I need to tend to my sharp edges. And both people in a relationship need to understand that our sharp edges can hurt/poke/scratch and even impale another person.

Very truly,

Liz

Hi Liz

Submitted by Mihi Crede on Sat, 04/16/2016 - 22:32

I remember reading your post the first time through; the specifics of what you said really didn't matter. I placed my wife into your space and tried to understand your frustrations from the other side. There are mannerisms or behaviors that I'm sure my wife can list one through five and probably can continue going. When there is 'Love', you have to look at your partner in life with an open mind and ask 'Is there anything I can do to improve the situation?' Is there any common ground that can be reached? Is the marriage worth making changes? Can you openly communicate without feeling resentment? Is there too much history to change?

On my side of the ADHD fence, I'm sick and tired of the disappointments in myself and letting my wife down (that same conversation over and over like a broken record). I'm tired of the lack of an emotional filter, the distractions that occur constantly every day, the impulsivity that can create chaos and the Hyper-Focus that you have no clue when it will end. I value my wife and our family; so now that I'm out of my fog...if I want it to continue, I will make every effort to do things differently and not harder as Melissa points out. I must face the 'Truth' of the feelings coming from my wife, even if I sometimes don't agree with it.

I guess it boils down to this reading your post: Sometimes the Truth hurts. From your perspective they are truths and your spouse can either look at it openly and work with it or the unfortunate other side that by what I'm reading is a separation.

I pray for both you and your husband. Your voice here is being heard.

I know you're Christian; lean on Him as sometimes that's all we have to get us through tough times.

Paradigms

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Sun, 04/17/2016 - 12:52

Mihi Crede,

Today, what I feel in all this - well, here is an emotional word picture.

A woman goes into a doctor's office with her son.

She says, "Doctor, I have a problem. My son thinks he is a pterodactyl. I do not know what to do."

The doctor replies, "Mam, as soon as you can see that he a pterodactyl, everything will be fine."

Yep. This gal is that confounded. I am really, really missing something major.

Blech,

Liz

What others think of me is none of my business

Submitted by lulu18 on Sat, 04/16/2016 - 23:57

Liz,

The depth of your sadness and suffering touched me very deeply. I have a great deal of respect for your courage, perseverance and willingness to be transparent with your mis-steps and successes. When I read your post I was reminded of a quote by the late, great Dr. Wayne Dyer. He said " Self actualization is the ability to be independent of the good opinion of others". Easier said than done of course. People will always have their "spin" on how they think you are doing, whether you are right, wrong, misguided or just plain "unreasonable". That;s one of my favorites. I've been told that many times. What it usually means is " Dont' rattle my world by standing up for yourself and being an inconvenient woman. If you challenge things too much, I might be forced to look at my own compromises and that would be intolerable". Their opinion is very telling-about them, not you. The person who rocks the boat is not a very popular person. That doesn't mean you are wrong. Just inconvenient.Welcome to the club. I have been an inconvenient woman for a very long time. We should have t-shirts made so we can recognize each other when we go out to the mall or to the grocery store.

My carefully arranged progress was not 'well-played'

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Sun, 04/17/2016 - 12:17

lulu18 ,

I am feeling quite a bit battered this weekend. Actually, in all honesty, I am out and out flattened. And I am not feeling popular. I am feeling as a pariah. I am running around putting out little fires that are endangering my whole reality. My conclusion - for Liz - is this forum is a life saver, and it now is not the best place for me to spend so much time. I have watched my spouse struggle with ADHD - from denial, to going for a diagnosis, to trying to come to terms with it, to wading through shark-infested waters to get the help that will bring him what ever it is that he wants and needs.

I have discovered in my own heart, there is a very fines line dividing co-dependency and helping/supporting, and that is the place I am floundering. What I do know, without a doubt is that I am having a harder and harder time enjoying my life while in the midst of this. I am spinning around and around with no place to find solitude in my own little 10 acres of property here in Ohio.

I cannot decide if I am relieved or pissed that my attempt to withdraw from this forum was flubbed up. Was it an irrational, half-a**ed attempt to run-away? Was it sheer and utter contempt at my inability to ask the right questions to get to the answers to my concerns?

I can be kind. I can be encouraging. I can be supporting. Where the crash came is how to measure progress for our marriage. Oh, Liz's heart and soul have emerged. And my "I think I can, I think I can, I think I can" attitude has floundered.

Our relationship has had some really poor dynamics. My frustrations have been poorly addressed by "If things do not improve, I am gone." "If things don't turn around, I will choose to get an apartment." In reality veiled attempts to beg/shake my spouse to see my struggle. The bluffing game is dysfunctional behavior. I am refusing to participate any longer.

No. No Liz cannot just say issues are where she needs, when they are not. Yes. Yes, Liz has reframed, and adjusted, and toned down her goals. I have let go of a lot, and just cannot let go of it all.

That ideal is the brick wall I think I have hit this weekend. ADHD. Marriage. ADHD and Marriage. I post here about my struggles in adjusting/understanding/growing. I cannot wrap my head around justifying things. If I ask for something, I really cannot say a substitute is the same as what I had hoped to achieve. As a team, we could re-evaluate the goals. We could lower expectations. We could, we could , we could, we could, we could. . . . . . . . . . . . . .

I live in this. I see the intimate details. I deal with them. I know what I fear. I know what I experience. I am afraid. I have great fears. I am unable to explain it so that it gets addressed as the ticking bomb I am standing near. So, I have to walk away from the turmoil so I will not be impaled by the flying pieces. Yet, yet, yet, in my heart, I will be scurrying around in extreme grief watching is happen.

No more bluffs. No more rose-colored glasses. No more fairytales. I am walking in the reality that I know. And it is true, I cannot get anyone to see the depths of what I know. That really does scare me. Not enough to join the denial.

I want to look at MY side of 2 recent attempts I made to find some solace for me. As I typed that out - I changed my mind. I was gonna delete that sentence, but will rather say I am making better choices and will not revisit things that just get me to a place of defending myself.

For today I am running through a gammet of emotions - from feeling stupid, to prideful, to sad, to defeated. The intensity of realizing I am maybe barking up the wrong tree has caused me to retreat. And breathe for a while.

At a place of difficulty today,

Liz

Liz....Could it Be You Need a Different Purpose?

Submitted by kellyj on Sun, 04/17/2016 - 14:05

What you said here"...I have discovered in my own heart, there is a very fines line dividing co-dependency and helping/supporting, and that is the place I am floundering."

I don't want to make any assumption here....but after reading what you wrote....I'm still unclear exactly what the problems you are having are? This is not to point out anything your doing wrong or that you "should know" either. It's merely saying....something is not clear to me here? It seems like you are close but still not seeing it either and this can be extremly frustrating I know?

Some random thought and ideas to see if anything fits here....I'm just throwing them against the wall and seeing if they stick?

My mother (God bless her soul) was a very good mother in many ways. When my sister and I were very young....things seemed to go along without too much of problem. When we all got older and started going our merry ways in different directions and once we left the house....my mother did not do well at all. It seemed....if she could not be a mother and fullfill herslef that way....she had no other way to be and this did not dit well with her. Everytime she tried to fullfill her "purpose in life" and continue to do it when it was past the point of us needing her to do this anymore two things happened:

We ( my sisters and I ) resented the unsolicited "help and support" that we no longer wanted or needed.....

and

My mother tried even harder to fit what she use to do into our lives later when it was no longer appropriate for her to do so. It seemed....she was trying to fit "us" into what she needed instead of fitting herself into what we needed and being able to change and shift along with us instead.

I remember each time I would go over to my moms house to help her with some things she needed that she couldn't do herself..... she had a bag of groceries and things I didn't want waiting for me. She had a thing about canned Peaches? I guess she liked them since she always included one of those big 32oz cans of Peaches in the bag every time I went over there. I remember looking at my pantry shelf one time and I had a dozen cans of Peaches taking up my entire pantry shelf and I rarely ate them anyway? I finally started to refuse to take any more bags of stuff home with me because this was causing me to have to store things I didn't want or had no use for just to apeice her and take these unsolisited bags of stuff home with me. I felt kind of guilty for just throwing them out....so I kept them and never used any of it and it finally was creating more work and problem for me as time went on. I finally had to say "NO more bags of stuff MOM!! I'm not coming over there for hand outs....I'm coming over to help YOU....not the other way around. I will stop coming over if you don't stop sending home cans of Peaches and stuff I don't eat o want!!"

All that happened from that was for her to get angry with me. One of the rare times I ever saw my mother get really hostile like this so I knew that something was going on other than her just being "helpful". I ended up just giving everything she gave me all away and donated it all to some food bank for charity without telling her. It's the only choice I had given the circumstances. I was in my 30's when this all happened.

Random thought # 2......My T has used this one to get me to try different things but not to give up imediately if it didn't feel right or kind of funny at first. He said ..." if your a wine drinker....the first time you tasted wine....you probably didn't like it very much (so true....yuk! ). But after you keep tasting it and keep trying it ....after a while...you aquire a taste for it and then....you even go to really liking it and enjoying it quite a bit from where you started." Self explainatory I think?

Random thought # 3.....Again from my T. He told me that the way family dynamics work (common and even normal )....that if one person in the family steps out of their role or tries to change in some way.....all the other members will try and pull them back into line since all the peices fit together before (dysfunction or not )....and now the person stepping out is upsetting the balance for everyone else. The group mentality will pull the one goes off line....back online again to return the balance to the way it was. This is the will of the many....fighting against the will of the ONE. For the one.....this can be exhausting and sometimes futile to get the rest of the family to ever be Okay with this and sometimes...never. In order to fight up against this.....you have to have a strong resolve and know exactly what you are doing and why and then stand your ground.

I think part of that has to do with purpose? What is Liz's purpose? And has the needs of the ones you've been supporting and helping changed?

Random thought number #4......You buy a gift for someone for their birthday and you go out and pick something that your really think is special and they might like since you like it very much. The only problem with that is.....it has no interest or meaing for the person who you bought this for. Yes it's the thought that counts....but, it would have been better to find out exactly what is special for the other person first whether it has any meaning or is not at all special to you....instead of doing it the way that I first described instead?

Picturing one of my favorite "Simpsons" episodes....where Homer buys Marge a bowling ball fit for his fingers for her birthday...and Marge doesn't bowl. lol

All of this is not to say you are doing any of this.....it's just to get you to think about what your purpose in life has been....and are you still up to date and being current based on the world around you? And even if you are making changes to this.....it may still not feel right until you had some time to let the changes actually sink in. This may take some time and possibly....this is where you are? This could be part of problem you are expereincing? That not feeling right in this case....is a good sign and a normal part of the transistion and there is nothing wrong even if it feels that way? It always darkest just before dawn as they say. Just some thoughts to gain perspective?

I have multiple purposes in my life

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Sun, 04/17/2016 - 18:38

Staying in a marriage is but one of my life's purposes. That is the area I am floundering. That is the area of my life that I post about here.

I have almost always chosen to use "I" statements when I post. Even with caution, it has backfired and is causing conflicts.

Random thought # 3.....Again from my T. He told me that the way family dynamics work (common and even normal )....that if one person in the family steps out of their role or tries to change in some way.....all the other members will try and pull them back into line since all the pieces fit together before (dysfunction or not )....and now the person stepping out is upsetting the balance for everyone else. The group mentality will pull the one goes off line....back online again to return the balance to the way it was. This is the will of the many....fighting against the will of the ONE. For the one.....this can be exhausting and sometimes futile to get the rest of the family to ever be Okay with this and sometimes...never. In order to fight up against this.....you have to have a strong resolve and know exactly what you are doing and why and then stand your ground.

I know, without a doubt, when I raised my children, I had modeled for them "the peace at all costs game" Daddy must be happy, NO MATTER WHAT. I did it unwittingly. I did it none-the-less. It has been over 5 years since I told my son and daughter and my spouse - "I have done something I am no longer willing to do. I have a long line of past behavior of changing my mind,, backing-down, and doing everything within my power to make and keep my spouse happy. I sacrificed Liz. I will no longer be controlled. I will no longer feel I am being a bad person by insisting there needs to be some things done the way I want them done. Or making choices that are what I want. It is VERY HARD. I really feel all alone. I do not like my spouse sad or angry or disappointed or upset or crying or defeated. I have clearly stated that I feel the only way my marriage can feel calm is if I play doormat. I am not a doormat. I get angry. I get scared. And as much as I am told my reality is wrong, and I feel as though the troops are being rounded up against me, to show me how wrong I am, well. . . . . . all I can say is, Liz knows the grass is green and I will not relinquish my reality and agree to say it is purple, just because someone else needs me to agree with them. The grass ain't purple. It is green. The problem is not that Liz refuses to say the grass is purple, the problem is that I am being hounded into saying something I know is not true. And I will not. This gal is feeling very battered. Secure. But battered. .

What is Liz's purpose?

My life is so much more than my marriage. I love children. I am studying to be a Pre-K teacher. I will be 57 when I get that degree, but I will have it!! I scrapbook. I quilt. I garden. I enjoy my 3 sisters. I visit my parents - who are 80 and 84. I am blessed to have them walking God's green earth with me. I write. Maybe someday I will get paid for it. Right now, I enjoy it. I love Dot-to-Dot puzzle books, and Sudoku puzzles, and jigsaw puzzles. I love to spend time with my nieces and nephews and great-nieces and great-nephews. I am 98% on track in reading the Chronological Bible in One Year. Got a few weeks behind. . . . .but I am catching up by reading 3 days per day! .

And has the needs of the ones you've been supporting and helping changed? I am trying to be supportive to my spouse. I am angry about that. I feel as though I am to blame that he is sad, and beaten-down, and depressed. That makes me ready to scream. It is becoming difficult to share my story here - without it being interpreted as knocking him down---or judging him-------or being the impossible task-master---or too rigid- - - -or unbendable. I have made some attempts to share how I feel, but it seems to blow up in my face. Thus, my original post in this thread - - -was deleted because it caused him so much anguish. And I got so angry at myself, I tried to delete my account, and run for the hills. And then realized, that is pretty much co-dependant behavior. I cannot allow anyone to keep me from enjoying my life. I am not a rock. I am human. I have been a bit bruised by this turn of events these past few days. I feel hung out to dry.

I am riding rough waters,

Liz

To you, Liz

Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on Mon, 04/18/2016 - 00:03

Hi, Liz

You have a lot on your heart and I don't want to do a long post because of it. You've been so courageous in putting your thought, uncertainty, decision and truth telling out there in words. I'm glad that you didn't silence yourself, because your husband had a strong reaction to what you wrote here. He's known you are on this board and he's been on it too. It seems like he moved into read-only That's his choice of course. If you want it this is a place for you. We value your honesty and strong desire that things be good. I value your courage, too. I can see taking a break from here from time to time. I come and go myself between days off, read only and posting. I have some more, but will write later. (((( Liz ))))

How to share my own thoughts within the correct boundaries

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Mon, 04/18/2016 - 18:46

NowOrNever ,

Thanks. Virtual hugs are wonderful.

Currently my spouse is not posting.

I am trying to understand a very difficult dynamic. I keep stepping out of bounds in my posts in sharing "How Liz Sees It." I think every person has their "public" image and their "home" image. We can let our guard down in the sanctuary of our own homes. Public and private. If I had my druthers, I would stay in my jammies all day long,

Some things are personal and private and our own business. . As long as no one else is hurt or injured by keeping them quite - then so be it. When something is happening that is worrisome, or causes deep concern for a family member, and we are sitting in a counseling session, or working on couples' dynamics, it doesn't give an opportunity for routes to take to healing - or getting to the root of the problem - if my voiced concerns are dismissed or not important.

I worry about my spouse.

I know for a fact he is not in denial about having ADHD. Denial was about other things in our relationship.

One great observations I got for myself - I am now choosing to believe that I had some great insight many years ago about some fears I had. No, I have not at all created a 'self fulfilling prophesy." Nope. I was pretty wise, and I just wouldn't allow myself to believe it, and I also let someone else convince me my intuition was incorrect.

For me, that is kinda nice.

Very truly,

Liz

Reading with appreciation. I

Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on Mon, 04/18/2016 - 21:48

Reading with appreciation. I'm aware of the public/private and posting on a board, and very much appreciate what you are writing.

I think about what I want to post about my relationship all the time. I often decide to leave parts of it off line. I think I'll always do that. That's my general take offline anyway, about a lot of things: some things anyone can see, some things not to be visible in their messy glory and agony, not discussed, except with good friends and in nearly everything, shown and discussed with my spouse...whether it has to do with him & me or something else. And even with him, I have some matters that I keep to myself...we do have responsibility for inner discipline and some other matters, inner life.

Online isn't a natural habitat for me. So I end up doing a swiss cheese presentation of my relationship and very definitely of him on line, and of parts of me, with big holes where I decide not to write about things. One of my go to solutions is to try to reach back into my past, to talk about the dynamic in a past relation...that's OK it seems to me to use to talk over something that I prefer not to describe in my present life, but want to talk about.

"the peace at all costs game".. Liz

Submitted by kellyj on Mon, 04/18/2016 - 07:44

For my understanding....that's all you had to say. I know this one too.....it's the one I grew up in and my mother played the same role. I can't relate to it from that perspective like you, but I know it from the perspective of the identified patient ie: " there's a problem no one can talk about and it has to do with you, but it's upsetting "father" and that's a problem (so therefore...your the problem. ( as in me).....therefore, what ever "that is"..."(we) just won't talk about it and pretend it doesn't exist, Okay?"

"Why?"

""Because....it might upset your father that's why."

I get it. Only one persons feelings and emotions counts at all times and that "one person decides" for everyone else how "everyone else needs to feel about anything." Trust me on that much will you?

I think your doing the right thing for yourself Liz....as hard as it is to go against the powers that be and that dynamic my T was talking about. It's an impossible situation without question. No one person can be responsible for everything yet somehow.....this is what happens? That's not "reality".....it's a distortion of it.

Somehow.....the "Christian" ideal of what the "man"s" and "woman's" role was meant to be....got twisted into something I whole heartedly believe...is a "misinterpretation" of something "good" and it turned into something "bad".

Why that is I think you could fill an entire set of encyclopedia's to fully explain going back several thousands of years....but I do know one thing I remember from a college class I took or the "History of religion and humanity". It wasn't until the Roman Catholic Church got into the business of being a "political power" and "running the show"......that things changed in that way somewhere in the first 1000 years A.D.. Before that....men's and woman's "roles" and the "parts they played" were seen as "equals" and even to the point of the roles that women held ( as "healers"... in the absence of medical doctors) and were highly regarded in the same way as we see medical professionals for their knowledge and expertise in these areas that have to do with the entire health and well being of not only the family but the entire "village".

At one time.....part of the 'women's roles" included that kind of respect and that role was much revered in those more ancient cultures.

That is.....until the Roman Catholic Church got into the "real-estate business" and decided that those "revered women healers" were "witches" so they trumped up "false accusations" and "evil suspicions" ....burned them in "public effigy" and took their land since most of these "old crones" had been widowed since their husbands and sons had all been killed some Bullshit religious war over which "Christian viewpoint" was the right one...."Protestant" or "Catholic".

Meanwhile....back at the ranch....there was some prime property being occupied by some old woman who lived alone at the edge of town....and the "new freeway" was going in right where they were sitting. The easiest way to grab a bunch of property was doing it this way for the church and the "powers that be." Same thing happened with Priests being celibate. Catholic priests were not always celibate in the beginning....until the church didn't like the fact that the Priest's family and offspring were entitled to inherit the land given to the Priest by the church. "I know...we'll just make up some bullshit new "covenant" that had nothing to do with anything and we'll nip this "land use" problem in the bud that way. Yeah...that's it....that's the ticket. We can spin that one and get away with it....isn't there some obscure group of Monks living in the mountains somewhere doing this currently that we can use as our reasoning for this? Get right on that....and hold my calls until tomorrow....I've a got a Tee time with the King this afternoon." Indian givers! But don't get me started!! lol

I could go on and on so I need to stop.....I can get pretty wound up when it comes to the Roman Catholic Church and all the "good deeds" they have supposedly done so I need to stop there or this will get out of hand in a hurry! lol Not the individuals (the priests or saints) but the business end and the Pope. I need to leave it there before I say something to offend someone....but like I said.....I could go on for quite some time!! lol

But I fully feel that somewhere in there....what was suppose to be....got "misinterpreted" into something it is not suppose to be by the intent and the real "word" as it was originally spoken. And this misalignment or viewpoint got brought over here with the Pilgrims and Puritans and the rest is history. What we got was the "distorted perversion" of it IMHO. But don't get me started:)

What we do not see

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Mon, 04/18/2016 - 18:53

I know The Peace At All Costs dynamic takes many forms. My Dad's drinking had a houseful of children scampering to keep him happy so he wouldn't drink. It never worked. He drank all the time anyway. And if he did happen to come home sober, he searched like crazy to find something - anything - that was unsatisfactory, so then he had an excuse to go drink, because we disappointed him.

I started out in my marriage doing what I thought was best. Being a good wife. Teaching my children to respect their Daddy. How it morphed into Peace At All Costs - well, I gotta believe it what was I knew, so it just was an automatic evolution. Not good.

Hard to alter. The family dynamic is very resistant to change.

Joh Bradshaw. He did some great work on The Family System. I have been working like a dickens to prove to myself that my marriage can work without me being a doorrmat or emotionally broken. Maybe I am in denial about that. . . . . . . . .

Liz

Liz, this says SO much

Submitted by dedelight4 on Mon, 04/18/2016 - 10:54

You have put into words SO many of the things I've thought about, as well as other things that helped me make choices I have decided that are important to me, and have that be okay. In the search to find myself again, and LIKE myself again, letting go of my husband's ADHD, and letting go of A LOT has been very freeing. But I'm also discovering I don't have to accept a continued lifetime of non acceptance, and non-love, just to say I've endured. I've had to ask myself, "Who are you doing all this for, and why?" My husband has yet to see or acknowledge anything I've done, and I've been beating my head against a wall, bruising and bloodying myself for someone who doesn't care if I'm hurting or not. It's all about him. It now feels like a game that I don't want to play any more. I'm tired, want to pick up my broken toys and go home.

It's okay to WANT to be loved, it's okay to want to be needed and cared about, and it's not okay for me to keep staying with someone who could choose to do better, but doesn't. I didn't ask for much, I didn't ask for something unreasonable. I didn't ask for something he is incapable of doing. He made a choice.......to deny ADHD is hurting us.

And yes, he is just beginning to look at it now, but it took me leaving. Why? That makes no sense. It makes me feel like an even bigger fool, because it's as if he kept telling himself, "She'll never leave, I don't have to look at myself as long as she is still here".

I'm 59 years old and am disabled from work due to chronic pain.(3 ruptures in my spine) and it is SCARY knowing I have to depend on him for money. Curself and a few others live with their monies seperately from their spouses. There has to be a lot of freedom in that alone. But having to be dependent on a spouse is scary when untreated ADHD is involved.

I'm so glad you have things in your life Liz, to look and work forward to. I'm sure it helps. I had some of those things until a few years ago, when my back got much worse. I had to quit what I love most.....being an accompanist for voice students. And organist/pianist. I miss it terribly. I hope that getting away from so much stress will help my body get stronger, and maybe I can return to playing piano.

I know that leaving was the right thing for me, because I was to the point to where I didn't want to live any more. I had numbed my feelings to the point to where I was just kind of a zombie, not feeling hardly anything anymore. Living in physical pain, emotional emptiness and being isolated in a house with someone who didn't seem to care whether I lived or died started alarming my family members. My daughters started urging me to live with either one of them, or go back and forth. It gave me a little hope, and now its been over a month that Ive been out. Im so worn out. There are days I dont feel like I fit in but thats okay too. I want to live for my daughters, and I will continue to help myself want to live for me.

Dede I Know I Mentioned This Before

Submitted by kellyj on Mon, 04/18/2016 - 13:03

But I have some disk problems that had me completely debilitated at one time. I implore you to work on making that better and doing everything you can to get that chronic pain under control. I am pain free now and can do most anything where before....climbing into my car and driving to work was enough to make me want to give up hope. Despite the pain.....exercise and reducing your body weight did wonders for me even if there was a lot of pain involved at first to get past that point. It changes your entire outlook on life for the worst...and getting past that changes my entire outlook on life for the better.....just because of that chronic back pain. Your stomach muscles are the key even if it's your back that is the problem. Core exercises no which ones you choose will help this out tremendously. If you could dedicate yourself with the time you have to just focusing on that and doing everything you can to making this better......I can't tell you how much of difference this made for me in every respect. I could only wish the same for you:)

I want to start walking first, then exercise

Submitted by dedelight4 on Mon, 04/18/2016 - 15:12

Thanks J for the advice. I know I need to start Building up my strength by walking first, and then move on to more, I'm in a neurology pain clinic that helps me with meds, but I really hate taking them. I've had one laminectomy L5, S1, and four neck nurgeries, and had my 1st right rib removed. Really dont want any more surgery. Ive also gone through many physical therapies, relaxation therapy, using a tens unit, excersize, gym memberships and done my own extra therapy like swimming, etc. This allnstarted from a car accident. Getting hit from behind while sitting in traffic.

When I got sick several years ago and had a bowel rupture, was in a coma for a month and almost died, started my back getting so much worse from being in bed so long. My husband did almost nothing to help me out. "I have to work", was what he continued to say. I got very sad from what seemed like him feeling like he was being "put out" from his sick wife. He used to tell people about this so they would feel sorry for him. I used to hear him on the phone saying this. But again, I got up and did everything I possibly could for myself. It helped me get back on my feet.

Weight has never been an issue for me, in fact Ive been a little underweight. My daughter is a great cook, and has been feeding me well. The doctor was glad I put on a few pounds. But will keep it in check, because I know weight can add to back pain.

Thanks again for the advice.

I Feel For You Dede

Submitted by kellyj on Mon, 04/18/2016 - 17:28

A couple of things you mentioned here.

I got very sad from what seemed like him feeling like he was being "put out" from his sick wife. This one I have had to come to terms with myself. When you start feeling like someone else's "inconvenience" and it's someone who you care about or want them to care about you? OMG....this one is very hard to get past and deal with emotionally.

When I got really sick right after I first came to this forum.....my wife pulled this one on me and it's not the first time. I finally called her on it just recently when I had to clear the air about this and get an honest answer from her. In her own way and in a genuine moment of thinking about this.......she said " I want to feel special and when I am faced with a situation that calls for me to take care of someone else.....it hits a nerve from my past that tells me that I am not special and just there to take care of someone else." In her case....this is true. She was moved around between her divorced parents and when she was in her early teens....she was sent to live with her father. At the time....his elderly mother was living with them and required constant care and attention. Her step mother was also there with her two children so what ended up happening was the Cinderella syndrome. My wife ended up cleaning her grand mothers bed pan and doing most of the horrible stuff as long as she lived with them while the other people in the house hold apparently ignored her grand mother and she ended up saddled with being the at home care taker.

Reading a bit more in between the lines here ( part of my wife's denial).....her mother was a grown child who was envious of any attention she did not get herself. As my wife puts it.....she was "not very demonstrative". That's denial code for.....her mother was more interested in herself and what she was not getting....than she was about her own children and did the same thing that her father did by putting her in charge of doing things that were her responsibility....and making lame excuses for not caring or loving her children in the way a healthy individual would feel compelled to do. In her mothers case.....she was compelled to take care of herself and leave the rest for someone else to do. Ironically....that indifference got past on down the line. My wife was an inconvenience so she didn't feel special. "Special" is also code word for not being loved or cared for as I now seeing it.

I told her about the time that my father woke me up one morning to go to swim workout at 5:30 am. I told him I felt sick and didn't want to go and he made me go anyway. When I got home....I nearly passed out. As it turned out....I got a rare case of Mumps that traveled into my intestines. I ended up with a fever around 103 or 104 and I vomited so much (and for so long) my Mom had to take me to the emergency room for IV fluid since I couldn't even keep water down. They released me the same day but I continued to throw up for two days straight off and on with little change in how I felt for that long. When my father came home from work I heard him come in and hear my mother tell him how sick I was and that she had to take me to the emergency room. I heard him bark at my mother about how much that was going to cost him .....and then he walked up to the door of my room and just stood there and stared at me and didn't say a thing and then just turned around in silence and left and never mentioned anything about this again. The look on his face was so distributing that it stayed with me for many years after that. It wasn't the look of concern....it was the look to see if I was really sick and not just faking it or making it all up since he still didn't believe that I "looked all that sick to him?" Really?" You can tell just by looking eh? I guess if you're not bleeding in a pool of blood and unconscious lying on the floor....then don't bother me with an upset stomach..what a whimp!

The point in me telling you this is not to gain your sympathy. This happened many many years ago. The reason for bringing this up is how I resolved this and let that all go. That and many more moments just like this one that made me feel worthless and very much like an inconvenience. I had to look at my father as a person who did the best he could based on his own childhood which is rarely talked about. It must have been that bad to create a situation where to him in comparison....I had it easy and he had it much worse than this. I remember him telling us about my uncle who once...... while sliding into home plate playing baseball.....broke his leg while doing so. When he got home....he showed his parents his bruised leg and they told him to shake it off. Two days later....he was hobbling around the house and finally went back to his parents to take another look. By that time.....the bone in his leg had already started to break through the skin and was poking out of his leg! Which at that point.....they decided to take him in to get it set into a cast since they figure that warranted a trip to the doctor. lol I'm laughing since this story was told in a humorous way as bad as it sounds. To them at the time.....this was not such a big deal?

As much as my experience had the same effect and made me feel very sad and "like a burden".....what I see now is how some ones perception of another person pain can be so very much different. The context and the aftermath of this kind of thing gets carried with you and repeated many times as it wa with my wife when I got sick and she was actually more irritated with me than less during that time.

I did tell her that this was a really low moment for me in our relationship and my ability to trust her if the chips are down next to "0" because of it. On both sides of the coin here.....we had things an experiences that told us that the other could not be trusted in the way we needed to be shown that care specifically based on what we didn't get and how those past experiences effected us in this way.

The inability or unwillingness to communicate things like this....leaves other people without the means or possibly the same experience to relate to these things in a way that they can understand. Assuming others have had your experience and therefore somehow "should know these things" is ridiculous since no two people have experienced their lives in exactly the same way. Without the context their to help in understanding why one person has more issues in certain areas like this....it leaves you guessing and without any means to connect with them in order to understand.

What I have come to conclude for myself now....is that it is my responsibility to find a way to relate certain things to other people so they too can get and basic understanding not to feel sorry for me. I don't feel sorry for myself so why should others feel sorry for me?

I think the reverse of that last sentence is also very true. It's was my wife's mothers problem, her father's problem, her father's mother's problem, my father's problem and probably his father's problem too. Whe everyone is feeling sorry for themselves all the time and you've got a room full of victims even when they aren't sick or injured....it doesn't leave a lot of room for you when you're sick and need them to come to your aid......know what I mean jelly bean:)

I don't know if that helps you or not....but being able to see the truth in these situation does help me not take things like this too hard (and less personally and helps me let go of them just as fast.) It doesn't do much in the moment when it happens....but there's no need to carry that around with you after the fact since that only makes things worse for you. They're not even around so why should they have that much say in how you feel right now? That's their problem.....not mine.

I say... Nay to that! Walking is good...it all counts as exercise and it will do you good! :)

Going Around

Submitted by jennalemone on Mon, 04/18/2016 - 19:20

Liz, that post of yours. To me, it says all the hope and positive things you are trying and proposing. A negotiating of what COULD be if there was a discussion on the points that you need to be addressed. It was not a negative post at all. It affirms your willingness to partner and talk about things. It was MY original post that held some negative words. My spouse responds to my attempts at clarification by being disruptive and accusatory when I look for growth and open a conversation. He uses expletives and sarcasm, then storms out. I usually had felt drained and sad for days after one of his inability to discuss things like partners. The blow-up is usually an overwhelm and an exit from the discussion - a ruse. Unintentional or not...it gets him away from the responsibility of a conversation that might incur some compromises that he cannot bear to consider. It does not seem as though he feels badly afterward...just me. So now I look at these events more like a student in a lab. And I can see that these reactions are not about US but about something else. I don't know what else because he does not share that except the glare in his eyes telling me to back off.

So glad I am not alone....

Submitted by Zapp10 on Wed, 04/20/2016 - 09:25

Thanks again Jenna, your description about discussions is right there. If we can't discuss ANYTHING ....WHY ARE WE HERE???????????????

Thank you

Submitted by Zapp10 on Wed, 04/20/2016 - 09:21

Thank you. The 3 things you wrote under "what am I looking for" spoke volumes to me. Also resonated that while I so desperately would love to hear this perhaps the same is true for my H. I am finding these statements a "framework" for the process of this daily"grind"...

Again, I thank you for putting your thoughts out there....they have been so helpful in so many ways.

What you need to share, someone else needs to hear

Submitted by lulu18 on Sat, 04/16/2016 - 23:38

Delphine, although you may not see posts that touch on subjects like ho'oponopono, that does not mean no one on this forum is familiar with this way of coping with life's difficulties. Some of us are quieter about our many ways of healing and coping. We all come from different walks of life, different parts of the country and even different countries. There is one thing that unites us- our desire to heal, to move forward, to do the best we can with who we are and what we've got. We may call our beliefs by different names, worship at different places and have different beliefs. I don't think any of that matters. We are all united in the desire to help ourselves and help others by sharing our experience, strength and hope. Do not feel uncomfortable sharing your beliefs. They come from love and a desire to help. A wonderful author, Charlotte Kasl, said " there are many roads but only one journey". Thank you for sharing your loving suggestions. I had forgotten about ho'oponopono and the way it gently guides you away from blame and rage. When I read the many diverse comments on this forum, I try to take something positive from each post, even if the poster has a different belief system than mine. I can always find something that gives me hope, strength and courage.

So glad lulu18

Submitted by Delphine on Mon, 04/25/2016 - 21:19

Yes, lulu18, Hoponopono is magical, very happy you are open to hearing and practicing my suggestion.

Delphine

Hi Jenna...

Submitted by c ur self on Mon, 04/18/2016 - 00:39

(So now, when I read anyone saying, "....but I love him" after an atrocious story about the actions of their spouse, I want to tell you, "No, you don't love him. You are AFRAID to NOT love for many reasons. Some of the reasons are your own.....fear, lack of support, lack of options, lack of self confidence." I accidentally wrote "fraud" instead of afraid there at first. But this is true too. When we tell ourselves and our spouses that we LOVE them. We are being a fraud. We are living our own lies (by not accepting the truth) and stuffing those lies down our own throats because we are afraid of the truth. Afraid of retribution. Afraid of our own decisions. The truth is that we have been harmed and nothing we do is going to change the situation or the relationship while we continue to submit ourselves to the relationship that is not serving us. We need to grow up and take responsibility for our own actions and find our own way of integrity and contentment.)

I fully understand your feelings and thoughts and I'm sure MANY here would agree with them...But I see it a little different....First; I don't think real love is anything more than a choice of commitment...It's not an emotion...Although many emotions will and do entangles us when we choose to love someone....I think many of us confuse things like Commonality, Lust, Financial Security, Companionship with what it means to chose to Love in a fully committed way....

And if I'm understanding your comment concerning submitting to a relationship that is not serving us, makes our love void so to speak or makes it a fraud...I disagree....I do agree it takes more than I can muster from my own will power....If there is one thing I know, it's that, I don't have to be happy about the circumstances (what is coming back in response to my Love and commitment) to know I'm doing the right things...

Our spouses can never hold us hostage from what isn't their's to control....unless! we give them the power to do it....

Peace be with you!

Love is a comittment. Love is a feeling.

Submitted by jennalemone on Mon, 04/18/2016 - 12:03

C, I have often said this same thing. Love is not a feeling but it is a commitment. I agree. I have lived my life with this direction.

Because there are so many different kinds of love, the topic, in English, is hard to talk about...we may all be thinking of the noun and the verb "love" differently. The Greeks have four different words each with its own definition which would make things clearer when we speak of them.

Yes, you are right. I cannot say what I said above, "You don't love him." Many of us are devoted and loyal to a person and the institution of marriage. And in that sense, we have loved them. Sorry. Careless words from me while I tried to sort out my own frustrations.

Am I attracted to him? Do I feel affection and trust in him? Do I feel good when I am in his presence? Do I long for his touch? Does my heart melt when I hear his footsteps? Does my mind's eye cling to his image like a balm when I am stressed? Does his name hold some magic brightening at the sound of it? Do I smile when I see his smile? Does the idea of us being a couple make me feel warm and cared for and included? These are feelings.

I have "felt" love. Those things I just listed. I love to "be in love". Eros...romantic love. I am an artist...I love love and passion. In the hands of a self-centered or emotionally unavailable spouse, this is dangerous. I tried too long and too hard to keep that alive while I became a simple tool for my spouse to ignore and use.

My old Agape natural state had been replaced by a menacing state of resentment and fear. So, even though my head was working to devote and commit, my heart was turning hard. My being on this site is part of my attempts to get back to where I was before I became this person who has fear and resentment built up as defense.

'Just rambling with no particular aim or goal. Just wanted to respond even though my thoughts are scattered this morning.

I Philos you....Dear Jenna!

Submitted by c ur self on Mon, 04/18/2016 - 14:32

We are soooo much a like....It's safe to say the hardest thing I've ever done is to smoother her w/ romance knowing it's going to be one sided....But it's the only path to wellness, and, when I can accomplish it, she surprises me some times w/ her response....When I can swallow my pride and victim thinking in this area....I sleep so good....:)

Blessings Dear Friend....

Many kinds of love

Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on Mon, 04/18/2016 - 20:37

Yes, I've been thinking about your original post, Jenna, too.

Here's where I've gone with my mulling love in relationships lately.

I used to think that love conquered all. Well, now I don't unless it's love coming from beyond human capability to love.

I don't think human love, whether commitment, romantic love, nurturing paternal/maternal love, friend love, conquers anything, meaning has won over, fixed, healed, triumphed, bested

That's not how I look at loving now. I sure did and I did for a lot of years think that if I just loved and loved, that the way would open and love would conquer all. I had a movies view of how things come out, if you just love, and love your best, and love no matter what. You know, the lovers hang on through the hardest time, separation, survive air raids and holocausts and finally end up together happy.

I went through a period of deliberately not getting into a new love relationship with a man. Love of friends, love of other things continued, but nothing for awhile, that had me starting something that had possibility for deep enduring love with a man. I didn't even date. I did that because while I know I'm oriented to loving, I had not been through a relationship that had made it, and I wanted to take the time to take a very good, as honest as I could look at why not. Here's where I got to, speaking only for me:

Love was not what I thought it was, the glue that kept my relationships together. It hadn't work to expect it to be, because no matter what I felt or what he felt, whoever the he was in my life at the time, our feelings and attitudes weren't what kept the relationship going and growing. Well what did? What was the glue of human relationship (leaving aside things like divine intervention...I think for me we expect God to be the glue when we've got our own job that hasn't yet been done by us, often...so God the fixer, who fixes what we didn't do in the first place or broke, that didn't help with what I was working through, and God has never showed up in my life as Mr. Fixit, anyway). What, if not love (which I had bet on all those years) as the thing that best kept things connected and going in a relationship, what?

Here's where I got to, speaking for myself. I think truth telling and respect shown in action are foundational to the relationship and to love. Without truth telling between the couple, and without active respect, not just yadda yadda about respecting your spouse, to me? Love dies. Love is a growing thing, that blooms and heartens, and does all kinds of things for the couple. But take away truth telling? Take away active, not yadda yadda talk about respect? The relationship just. cant. make it. Oh you can exist under one roof with someone who never does anything respectful for you, who never shows the outside world that you are valued to him/her. You can exist under one roof, never doing anything respectful to him. You can exist. The days keep coming and going. There can be routine, oh yeah. But love dies, my ordinary, relational love dies, if I am persistently treated like something that is to be used and wasted, and I am sure to certain that if I persistently treat my husband like he's a child, an idiot, someone who doesn't count, or a cash machine, my love for him will die and very likely, unless he's supernatural, his for me will die.

There can be familiar routine, without truth telling. People can run out the clock in familiar routine and no truth telling. I actually think that lying, hiding, fibbing, covering over and misrepresenting with silence, not having the self understanding to tell truths that are deep and risky, probably is more of a corrosive on a continuing relationship that acts of disrespect are.

As I understand it now, love dies (whether a living dead or a dead dead), if it is not able to set root in truth and in respect between the couple. So that's where I am at, regarding love, these days. I'm not just talking about romantic love of course. And I'm just talking about truth and respect here, not about other things like graciousness, generosity and forgivenness, which are collaterals or outpourings of love, anyway. There can be no trust with out truth telling and mutual respect. One can go on, out of commitment to the other person and/or commitment to something higher than the marriage. Some do. But without truth and respect coming from the partner, and/or without telling the truth and doing respectful things for one's partner it's a lonely road of commitment.

Finally, I'll save it for another post sometime, but I am unfortunately excruciatingly aware of some things that Liz has been writing about, that there can be the partner's fear, convincing her or himself of being disrespected, or the partner's accusation that they've been disrespected, as a jockeying maneuver to win what the accuser thinks is a contest unto death of the self, of disrespect when there was no act of disrespect done, no disrespectful words were said, the tone wasn't disrespectful, the intention was far from disrespectful. But that whole sub topic of respect is quite its own subject. Respect is acted out, or it's just yadda yadda. Fear of being disrespected is not what I'm talking about at the moment. That's another subject, perhaps for another post. I'm telling about the positives: the power of the acts of truthtelling, and the acts of respect.

Truth and Respect

Submitted by jennalemone on Mon, 04/18/2016 - 19:24

Well said, NowOrNever. I agree with this entire post. Very similar perspective and history.

Thanks

Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on Mon, 04/18/2016 - 20:40

...back to clean up typos and grammar, did that one on the fly. Thanks Jenna.

At the time I did that long look at me, love and relationships, the discovery that I like the little engine that could (but didn't) was trying to keep some relations going with no acts of respect coming my way was somewhat of an eye opener. I was somewhat morally shocked at myself that I had been in situations where I tolerated disrespect to the level that I did.

Ok, here comes that other part: on this board we sometimes mention acts of respect and acts of disrespect. Some of us also mention at times occasions when someone claims that they were disrespected (which is a concern that is 180 degrees opposite of DOing respectful acts to the other person), I'll let fly my Part 2 on acts of respect as not being the same as presumption of being disrespected.

It's one thing for a person in the couple to claim, "You disrespected me because I think you disrespected me and if I think you disrespected me, it's real, I'm disrespected by you regardless of what you did say

...(which I reserve the right to disagree with, and I am capable of arguing until I'm blue in the face that you didn't say what you said you said because if you said what you said and not what I said you said, then my argument that you disrespected me falls in a heap)

or regardless of what you did mean....or you did do

no, no I, not you, get to say that you disrespected me, and if I say you disrespected me, nothing that you say or do, or said or did matters (to ME, and so therefore it should to YOU) as much as me believing that you disrespected me"

OK, that's one thing. I'll let the implications of that line of reasoning sit there, smoking...

And it's another thing for a person in a couple to get off her or his high horse about badgering someone or resenting someone (two acts, I might point out) because he/she thinks or fears that someone around might, or might have, disrespected,.....and throw energy into the positive, and actually DO acts of respect

As I worked it through, to me (not claiming any universals here) truth and respect, the foundation and soil in which love, however defined, can survive, thrive and benefit the relationship, are NOT abstractions. Truth and respect NOT ideals, although they need to have standards of quality. Not just any piddling truth telling will make a difference to a relationship. Truth and respect only exist if you DO them. That's the way I see it. No do? Not there.

(Grin) sorry Jenna, I've been thinking about your OP and cooking what I think about what you brought up in it for awhile. J and I split the long post prize... Thanks for starting the thread.

Sometimes the missing pieces are very important

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Tue, 04/19/2016 - 10:56

NowOrNever,

There is usually a lot to be said. . . .and many times it takes a long post. I like what you said. . . .and I understand it completely.

My spouse - let me paint a picture for you - he is 6 foot four, he has blue eyes, and blond hair. He is very creative. He solves many construction problems with simplicity.

I got an extra gush of weepy eyeballs today. How does a wife, a partner just accept everything else? I cannot. It is not what I want. The issues that have been causing me to choke up in tears, are now causing me to feeling some crumbling. It feels as they will implode. Destruction not easily seen by the naked eye, like the damage caused by termites. When you see evidence of them buggers, you need to address the problem. If all you do is continually sweep away the piles of sawdust, which as time goes by get bigger, and bigger, and bigger, they will ruin a perfectly good foundation. Or if you choose to not look at them, and only want to look at the exterior of the building, or its surrounding landscaping. . . . . it just makes no sense. Well, it makes no good sense to me. Soon, a very beautiful structure will fall in on itself. And all those who only saw it from the outside will shake their head in disbelief. "Wow. What a shame. How could that have happened? It 'looked' so nice."

We have cycled right through the darkness phase. Right into the sunshine of the honeymoon phase. And all the stress that was built up has been dumped. And that is no longer 'now.'

And emotionality, well it has blown by and I - me - Liz - what I am left to choose with is how I want to deal with. . . . . . the aftermath. And I see that handsome man, sitting on the couch, saying to me in defeat, "We don't have to pay 2 lawyers. You just get yours to figure out how to divide things, and I will take what ever is left."

I am still sad. And I am refusing to let it eat me alive,

Liz

Hey, sweetie

Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on Tue, 04/19/2016 - 12:23

Hey, sweetie

I've had an interlude of some extra time to myself for the last while, and I've used some of it to bombard this site! I'm going to have to taper back now, to get my offline life done, and go more into read-only. But I couldn't miss contact with you before I rolled away into offline demands etc.

I believe in you. You, Liz. Other of your friends here have said that, too. Believe us that we believe in you. Oh, Liz, you are, whatever happens between you and your husband, going through transformation. You are. You have found your core. Not someone else's center for you. Your center.

There's more growth that's going to happen in it.

And you're on you way, during a very hard passage with your husband, very.

Honey, it's all right to do your best, as you see your best, in a time and world in which things are not clear. It's the only thing you can do in sunshine or storm anyway.

Love,

Now

Thanks. . . . .

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Tue, 04/19/2016 - 12:42

Well now, Now,

I just got the most amazing message from my sister. so worth of sharing.

Here it is:

THEY TRIED TO BURY US. THEY DIDN'T KNOW WE WERE SEEDS.

Off to my college classes. Gotta just shake this all off for a bit :)

Thanks. I am encouraged.

With sincerity and hope,

Liz

Hi Now

Submitted by c ur self on Mon, 04/18/2016 - 23:58

I like what you're saying here...I just noticed for me the word trust could almost replace the word love in some of your comments...When I think of my own marriage and what has kept us both from not completely losing hope is the truth telling you mentioned...For the most part we've always had that...Even though in the early years of our marriage it didn't help much....Because I couldn't believe her, based on her actions...No one lives like that!....LOL...But, the years have taught me they do...LOL....

So even though there has been many hindrances' to a healthy union, this truth telling has allowed for hope, and trust....And even though we have suffered to bond (like I think we should) our love has grown. Our commitment has gotten stronger...

Boundaries are revealing our difference's which is bringing understanding and light to each of us about ourselves and each other....So when we respect these difference's (agreement as nothing to do with it) that Acceptance is allowing for the bond we both deep down wish we had....If someone has convinced themselves that all their spouse wants to do is change them, (not to mention they may have lived with this feeling most of their life) it's hard for that person to put their best foot forward....It's hard to want to engage in a vulnerable way.

I've made a lot of mistakes....

Just a couple of thoughts,

Submitted by Delphine on Tue, 04/19/2016 - 03:51

Just a couple of thoughts, because I'm tired and off to bed shortly....

People can't give to others what they can't give to themselves. If someone acts in a disrespectful manner, you can bet they don't respect themselves. Since few people fully respect themselves, it is a safe bet that they'll act in a less than respectful manner at times. This is where acceptance and forgiveness come in. But it's a matter of degree. If we are disrespected on a daily basis, I'd say that is when we have to accept we need to move on.

Very true that trust and love are nearly synonymous. Again, this doesn't mean that we expect the loved one never to slip up. But there needs to be a basic trust in each other's goodwill and caring.

C, I think this is very true, and probably applies to many with ADHD:
"If someone has convinced themselves that all their spouse wants to do is change them, (not to mention they may have lived with this feeling most of their life) it's hard for that person to put their best foot forward....It's hard to want to engage in a vulnerable way."

I am aware that when my son was young, I was often impatient with him (not understanding his ADHD, or even that he had it), and so now I work at being extra patient and supportive with him...he does respond to that.

I -thou

Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on Tue, 04/19/2016 - 07:28

I agree with this. I think that's true of truthtelling and forgiveness as well.

What's interesting about what you said Delphine is that a person doesnt need well developed theory of mind to do acts of respect, tell the truth and to forgive others, since the most influential model of these is inside of us. Agreeing with you that first it begins on the inside.

A victim mentality is a defensive decoy to myself, a substitute, poor me place to put the attention to myself and mental energy I need to do the hard work of getting through the slipshod protective bubble wrap of outward focus and self deception I've wrapped around me in the past, hoping to defend me against the truths of who I am, thus far. Inside is where truthtelling, respect and forgivenness begin. Better standards get applied inside, to oneself, first.

Back At You Delphine

Submitted by kellyj on Tue, 04/19/2016 - 13:40

I (very literally) agree with everything you've said here...once again, it all comes right back to looking at yourself and making changes where changes are possible. I think there is so much in what you said here....it's hard for me to narrow it down or to even know where to begin. It's also a big reason why I can't seem to keep these response short. That "Library of Congress" hard at work in my head! Now or Never' got nothing on me! (wink wink lol )

People can't give to others what they can't give to themselves. If someone acts in a disrespectful manner, you can bet they don't respect themselves.

Think about this statement for a moment and consider denial as a form of sweeping under the rug....what you don't want to see about yourself and coming up with all kinds of stories and excuses to cover up or re-explain what a person doesn't like about themselves so they can continue not to see it. But why do this and not just be honest when it seems clear that everyone can see it anyway? Why keep defending against "everyone else" who's screaming at you to see it and yet.....all that does is make them stick their head in the sand even deeper (using that word picture).....is not the most flattering and certainly a most compromising position one could put themselves in. All they see is the bottom of a dark hole with sand in it.....while everyone is staring at you squatting with your ass in the air and looking kind of foolish on top of it? This is not a position to garner a lot of respect from other people? lol Plus.....you are now even more vulnerable to ridicule and disrespect from other people (picturing a group of people standing there staring at someone doing this) and trying to get them to lift their head up so you can have a simple conversation with them instead.

After too long and out of my own frustration with....my initial tendency would be to place "boot on ass" in a swift kicking motion out of my own feeling disrespected, dismissed and ignored since this happened while I was simply trying to have a conversation with this person. How rude! I'll learn you! (punt)

But that's all about me....what about the person who is still squatting with their head in the sand with their butt in the air? What would compel me to kick them in the butt just because they did that while I was trying to have a conversation with them? How is this disrespectful or rude and why should I care if they did that? I think any time you feel dismissed by someone else.....it also can make you feel devalued. The more you feel a connection or strong feelings for another person....the more devalued you will feel when they dismiss you like this. But why? What are they really doing here anyway? Dismissing and disrespecting you....or checking out emotionally and hiding from the very thing that you want them to see by talking to them about what they do not want to talk about and looking foolish for doing it this way. Are they embarrassing you or themselves here and why should YOU take offense at this? They do have the right to be foolish any time they choose don't they? And so do you for that matter?............

Since now.....you're seen kicking this person in the ass from the perspective of the rest of the on lookers? Didn't you just join this person now in acting foolish an embarrass and disrespect yourself by doing so? Just because someone has a sign pinned to their butt that says "KICK ME, I'M AN IDIOT ".....doesn't mean you have to do it? And even though you will get a lot of takers on this request....doesn't mean you should join them should you? It's a pretty good word picture you have to admit? :)

I took the liberty of taking a recent post made by T farmer and moving it here to comment on it. I hope he doesn't mind? I'm certainly not trying to single him out in any way.....it was just what he said (and how he said it) that I can fit perfectly into what I'm trying to point out here.

The most frustrating part of dealing with an ADHD spouse is their mind is so scattered that they don't realize their mind is scattered. The excuses, defensiveness, and the absurd circular logic is mind boggling. Nobody can possibly defend this position without creating some kind of weird alternate reality for themselves. They are normal, it is the rest of us who are crazy.

Taking what I just said and applying it here......

The most frustrating part of dealing with an ADHD spouse is their mind is so scattered that they don't realize their mind is scattered.

This is where I have to disagree. How could you not know your mind is scattered and all over the place? I can tell you without question.....this part you KNOW!

The excuses, defensiveness, and the absurd circular logic is mind boggling.

Yes it's completely frustrating when you want to have an intelligent conversation with someone and they have their head buried in the sand? Why won't they listen to me and believe what I am telling them about themselves! It kind of makes it hard to understand them and why the hell they are doing this anyway? How rude, completely nonsensical and disrespectful! Back to......."I'll learn you! "(punt)

Nobody can possibly defend this position without creating some kind of weird alternate reality for themselves. Well....that's just crazy! Why on earth are you trying to defend yourself against someone else defending themselves and acting foolish to begin with? Isn't that just you kicking the person with their head in the sand in the butt out of your own frustration and defense of your own feeling disrespected, feeling dismissed and devalued by them. Who can make you feel anything and especially....who can devalue you unless you don't value yourself?

In reality....they aren't trying to disrespect you or dismiss you or make you feel anything? They are only concerned about trying to cover up what they don't want to see about themselves....and your doing your best to point this out to them and do the very thing they are trying to avoid by putting their head in the sand in the first place. This is why they can't see anything.....it's the goal of doing this in the first place!! And it works pretty well with no other avenue of escape!

Part of the reason a person with ADHD does this is BECAUSE you get scattered and unable to process it all and can't explain the thing that you know....all too well.

Denial is also...one of the most primitive forms of defense mechanisms that we human use when we run out of road and no where else to go? Trust me on that much! YOU are not the issue here and have nothing to do with this kind of behavior and why someone does this. Don't assume that this has anything to do with you because each time you do that....you will be choosing the wrong reason every time.

They are normal, it is the rest of us who are crazy. Anytime someone does this....you have to go.....do they really not know? Are they that stupid and think this is really true? Who could possibly believe this last statement? I realize it was said factiously....in the same vein as the thinking in itself. Again.....do they not know they are squatting with their head in the sand and their butt in the air and looking ridiculous?

The answer is......NO they don't because they have other things on their mind. First and foremost...protecting their fragile self image and the emotional pain that goes with it. For someone this fragile and living on the edge of the pit of despair....they have far more important things to worry about than being embarrassed and looking foolish.....even knowing the side effect of what they are doing to you is not as important than protecting themselves and defending against going over the edge and into total annihilation internally?

When the house is on fire.....you don't worry about how or who started it and go looking for answers to these things and stop to have a meaningful conversation with someone on your way out the door?

Nobody can possibly defend this position without creating some kind of weird alternate reality for themselves. I beg to differ.....the best defense against this is to have your shit together and be rock solid yourself. And then not join them in their reality by creating an alternative reality yourself. The best defense you have is to be totally grounded and centered yourself and unwavering no matter which way the wind blows or which reality they are trying to get you to join them in which in my metaphor in this case....is at the bottom of a hole full of sand. Why go there and why kick them in the butt just because the sign says so?

Just so you know.....I am referring to myself in the past when using this metaphor....I do get that latitude to do this when referring to myself in the past don't I? lol

J....

Submitted by c ur self on Tue, 04/19/2016 - 14:03

J this one of the, if not the best example I've read (anywhere) about dealing with the real life occurrences that happen when trying to communicate w/ an adhd mind and especially one where denial is present....

Here is one little example of where I use to beat my head against the wall vs walking away w/ acceptance and understanding.....

Conversation w/ W concerning hoarding and messes everywhere.....

Me: Why don't you put stuff up, instead of leaving things everywhere. It's hazardous, impossible to clean the floors or dust, and our counters and guest rooms are useless?

Her: I'm not comfortable with organization, I love a mess.

Me: Well then if that's the case why do you stress out and try to clean and hide things every time someone comes over?

Her: Silence......Then an answer...(she has one for everything; and if she don't, then I'm an asshole and should be ashamed for asking abusive questions) Anyway her answer to me was....I do it to save our quests from Sin; I do it to save them from making judgment on me.....Now do I believe this is her actual feelings or denial?...I only go to hell, if I try to answer that question...She said it, and like J said...The reality of it has nothing to do with me....

Me: I walked away silently.

A man has just got to know his limitations!

The best thing for the head in the sand is respect....When no comes to try to force them out...They will eventfully start peeking out themselves.....I just want to make sure of two things...One my head isn't down there too....And, I'm not pushing them down there deeper....

You Got It C

Submitted by kellyj on Tue, 04/19/2016 - 16:04

What ever she comes up with as her response to you.....it's one she is coming up with to explain what she cannot explain? Of course it won't make any sense....what else do you expect? Logic and reason? lol

Reality: Hoarding behavior is a temporary fix to quell the disturbing and unrelenting anxiety that's there for some other reason? That reason was there long before you ever met her and it really does have nothing to do with you. It has to do with the fear of not being in control of yourself and the anxiety of not knowing what to do about it? Hoarding....temporarily makes that go away and distracts you while you are in the behavior itself and allows you to push that uncomfortable feeling aside for the time being, But it will return again after a while as soon as your fix wears off ( because it never really went away in the first place)....so you need to go back to the well and do it again.....over and over and over. It's a compulsion and it has control over you. Round and round you go.

I'm not picking on your wife her either....I'm merely pointing out how illogical and her answer is since it really makes no sense at all. She's not actually answering you in her response.....she rationalizing to herself and this is what she comes up with. Again....it has nothing to do with you even though.....it's hard not to think that since she is talking to you at the time and responding to your question....that she is responding to you directly which shes not....she's answering to the behavior and trying to explain it to herself and of course....she's wrong. I don't think you even really believe it from being on the side of someone in denial.....but it sounds good in a sense by cobbling together a string of things that doesn't make you look as bad by saying it...........

Then an answer...(she has one for everything; and if she don't, then I'm an asshole and should be ashamed for asking abusive questions) Anyway her answer to me was....I do it to save our quests from Sin;

Well, that's very thoughtful and extremely gracious! lol If that was true that is?

I do it to save them from making judgment on me.....

Well....there you go. It's always good to know that you have someone in your corner to save you from yourself ????????? That changes everything! lol Sorry....I'm in one of those moods today!

Now do I believe this is her actual feelings or denial?

I don't know about you C......I'm going with door number 2.....that DOES make a lot more sense doesn't it? And it makes a lot of sense not to try and debate and argue this with her as well. How would you begin? I'm sure you've tried with little to no success? There is NO figuring this out since however she is pulling this all together in her head to answer you......no matter what that is.....it is not going to be what I just said and that's actually a lot closer to the truth (in my layman's way of saying it).....no matter what she says?

I think if I could speak for her and say what's closer to what she probably feels but can't put her own words to it would be....."if I give up my hoarding behavior....I'll be left with no way to push those horrible feelings aside and this is something I'm just not ready to deal with or know any other way to circumvent them. I will left floating helplessly in outer space and up shits creek without a paddle. It would leave me helpless to manage those feelings any other way without doing what I do for that reason and no other."

Thank you J

Submitted by c ur self on Tue, 04/19/2016 - 17:18

I'm sure I've told you this before; Your cross has become your ministry....You have a gift....There are very few times that what you write about a behavior not ring a bell of revelation or at least an agreeing smile from me....

I count you as a gift in my life...

I Concur

Submitted by Delphine on Tue, 04/19/2016 - 17:36

As I've said before, your contributions here are very valuable, J!

I Feel The Same Way Delphine

Submitted by kellyj on Tue, 04/19/2016 - 18:31

I think nearly everything you've said here is really solid . I think we are on the same path in many ways and it's nice to read it coming from a different perspective. Thanks

PS...I thought that the O'ho ono po ono po o (what ever?) was a fish? But I Love Hawaiian culture too..... and the stories to go along with. Never carry Pork up the Pali pass at midnight! The Menehuni's will surround you until you give up your Pork! lol

O.J.

Submitted by jennalemone on Tue, 04/19/2016 - 20:18

hahahaha. what???

I guess there is a certain trust on this board. A trust that we can be ourselves and put our thoughts out here that might seem weird. But since there is an anonymity here and since we have been putting ourselves out vulnerable here...we get to put weird stuff out and someone will actually get it and laugh as weird as it is Thanks J for trusting that some of us might look up some of those Hawaiian references, hahaha. Clever.

Hey Jenna....This is the Real Deal! lol

Submitted by kellyj on Wed, 04/20/2016 - 00:13

My high school math teacher was Hawaiian...born and raised. Every so often....I guess he needed a break from teaching once in a while? He would take an entire class session and tell Hawaiian folk tales and this was one of them. For some of the old timers who still follow the traditions....this is serious business for them. There are some laws that are strictly Taboo! In the old world....breaking Taboo law is Capu (forbidden) and was punishable by death! Pele (the volcano Goddess) gets very angry if you take her rocks home with you. It's said if you do this....you will have only bad fortune fall upon you until you return her rocks to her. No joke.

At sunset....the old timers can be seen sitting on their porch and looking at the road in some areas. If asked what they are doing...they will tell you....."we're watching the spirits parade down the street as they do every night at this time." Whether they actually see them or not....they won't say.....but it's still a tradition to sit on your porch at sunset and watch the spirits go by and many folks there still honor that tradition.

The rest of the Menehune story as told by my teacher? If you take Pork up the Pali and park you car at the top. At midnight....your engine will die and the car won't start. Two huge dogs will appear in your head lights and the Menehune's will surround your car and chant and angry chant in honor of Peles agreement with the Pig God which says no one will bring Pork from the windward side of Oahu to the Leeward side since that side is controlled by the Pig God and Pele agreed not to bring Pork over the pass at night for any reason. The Menehune's are there to make sure no one does! As soon as you throw the Pork out the window....the dogs, the Menehune's and the Pork will suddenly vanish and your car will then start and you can drive on without interference.

That's the rest of this weird tale....as told by an old time Hawaiian....straight from the source! lol

I'm Good With Smiles C

Submitted by kellyj on Tue, 04/19/2016 - 18:21

I didn't think you would take offense at my humor in this....I was kind of counting on it. Thank you:)

Trust, love

Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on Tue, 04/19/2016 - 09:42

Hi C

I always read what you write.

Discussion of terms like love, trust, respect can get pretty abstract, but one thing that is going on in this discussion about them is that we're not talking out of a hermit existence here...we're all right in the thick of relationships, so we each live in a world full of actions by both partners (including declining to act, which is an act), conversations, and history. So we're each using these words, trust, love, respect, to describe something that is going on, in whatever condition it is going on, in our relationships.

At that real life level, of actually doing something that I call loving or not being loving, ditto trust, ditto respect and receiving actions and words from my spouse that, since I continue to get to know him, develop some his-ways-over time ability to think about what he says and does.... at that level, not in the abstract,

your post led me to a question...which for me is not an abstract question. I wonder if people are able to love (for me: pour it out for the wellbeing of the other person and having the moxie to show myself as I am to him, not giving him a false view of me) if they can't trust (for me: have a strong, continuing sense that I'm not being lied to, or won't be suddenly attacked out of nowhere, and that what he says he'll do he'll do).

You've mentioned the sexual fulfillment side of marriage from time to time. Once I read that there were actual responses from actual women about what got them "in the mood" and they were amazingly consistent with each other in their answers, and that the two most frequent things they said they needed before they willingly made love were

a) rest...exhaustion killed their desire

b) knowing that they were safe.

Anyway, I've already written this in another thread, about sex, but when I saw that b) they need to know that they are safe, that was the head of a long ball of yarn of thinking for me.

So I'm pondering your observation, which I think is true that the word trust often can be slipped into place to stand in the place of the word love. I think you may be on to something.

And then you looped trust back to truth telling, which is what I'd do.

I read you also Now...You've touched my soul more than once:)

Submitted by c ur self on Tue, 04/19/2016 - 10:39

(I wonder if people are able to love (for me: pour it out for the wellbeing of the other person and having the moxie to show myself as I am to him, not giving him a false view of me) if they can't trust (for me: have a strong, continuing sense that I'm not being lied to, or won't be suddenly attacked out of nowhere, and that what he says he'll do he'll do).

I think so, but, I also think that many unhealthy things occur when one or both suffers from trust issues. I've come to realize in my own life, my expectations for myself get projected onto my spouse...I think we all do it to some degree; it's our only avenue for looking at the world...I think that is way we talk so much about Actions...His actions, her actions....We are taking our expectations for ourselves, and placing those on our spouses...But, there minds work differently...I'm not saying there isn't some absolutes (Actions, Words etc) when it comes to showing Love, Trust to our spouses....I'm just saying for me, it can be a slippery slope for me to judge her feelings toward me, based on my view of her actions and words....Her mind overwhelms her consistently. I know this for a fact....So, am I going to associate it's inability to meet me expectations in actions and words as her not having the same love I have because she can't attain to the same level of actions toward me that I might can reach toward her?

Just a thought...

it can be a slippery slope

Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on Tue, 04/19/2016 - 12:07

it can be a slippery slope for me to judge her feelings toward me, based on my view of her actions and words....

I so agree! If it smarts when I get judged my partner for having a feeling, attitude or thought that I didn't have at all, when his detectometer was trained on my actions and words (and lol, imagined words occasionally) , I had better be putting the shoe on the other foot and not try to construct my partner's inner person from his words/actions. So agree.

You know, the habit of asking one's partner what he/she is thinking or feeling, and accepting what you/I hear instead of clinging to your/my judgment or fear of what he/she is thinking is almost miraculous in its effect.

"Don't Assume"

Submitted by Delphine on Tue, 04/19/2016 - 17:34

"You know, the habit of asking one's partner what he/she is thinking or feeling, and accepting what you/I hear instead of clinging to your/my judgment or fear of what he/she is thinking is almost miraculous in its effect."

When my son was living here, often I would assume he was angry with me after we had one of our disputes. As I always want peace and harmony, I would come to him
and try to "smooth things over." But more often than not, he'd say he wasn't angry.

Reading everyone's posts is very helpful to me in making sense of all this. Very glad I found this place.

worst fight

Submitted by Delphine on Tue, 04/19/2016 - 21:29

I think it might be relevant to share details of the worst fight son and I had while he was living here.

He had work on his plate and had told me of the deadline, so I knew there was a time crunch. When he happily let me know of his plans to go out with friends that weekend, I said, literally without thinking, "Shouldn't you be working?" I didn't mean it in an accustory, but rather a wondering pov. I know that if I were in a similar situation, I'd focus as much as possible on getting the job done.

Well, he went ballistic. VERY angry. I tried to tell him I didn't mean it in the way he thought I did, but there was no getting through to him at that point. The fight continued from the kitchen into his room, where we talked a long time and communication got no better. He especially didn't like it that I said "I can't make you feel any certain way. Your feelings are your responsibility." Shortly after, he pushed me out of his room and I screamed. That did get through to him! I only screamed a couple of times, but it was certainly loud enough. It was coming from a feeling of outrage. I felt like I was giving him so much and didn't deserve to get that back.

Anyway, that was kind of a "tipping point" for me where I realized I needed to get more educated about ADHD and develop some skills in handling this. Understanding emotional lability has been key, and I think in future when he shows signs of this (as he did in that case) I won't react. Just let things cool off and maybe bring up later when it feels the time is right.

C's posts have been instructive here! Thanks for sharing about your acceptance and detachment with your wife, C. Great example for us all.

Delphine

Never giving up!

Submitted by c ur self on Wed, 04/20/2016 - 01:45

Delphine I admire how much work you have put into learning communication skills that work w/ your Son. It say's a lot about your character. Your post here is a perfect example of just how much effort it takes and even abuse we will endure in many cases. When we try to live along side a child or spouse who is capable of the kind of response you had to deal with. Just for asking him a simple question, a question that in my view was just a Mother's concern and simple reminder of what he had made public recently about his work load...Definitely nothing that should produce any anger or dramatic response...

There is several key's to being able to Love a Spouse or child who has these type outburst among other not so healthy habits/behaviors...

I stay hung up most of the time, because I fail to perfect my side of this relationship.....I've found many things positive that works and I'm happy about the progress, but, when I really get honest with myself I realize I still have two problems....(And I'm starting to make progress on these two monsters)....Two problems that for the life of me I've struggled to shake or move past....One is Enablement...Oh! :( Enablement; this one has haunted me, and it basically limited any progress to a snails pace....Identifying healthy love and how to discern it from enablement could be a 500 page book on just this one subject....

The second is more difficult to explain, it was and is my internal battle to be.....I don't even know how to say it.....(All in) or (Sold out)....You can't be 90% sure you're willing to endure this race....It will take your whole heart, and full effort.....It will destroy a victim mind....

This is one thing I've seen in you....We may feel and believe differently concerning some things concerning the unseen....But you have a hungry to be that Rock of Love regardless of the circumstances that come at you...It's encouraging and a mind I recognize:)

Blessings Friend...

Rock of Love

Submitted by Delphine on Thu, 04/21/2016 - 04:24

Yes, C, I do want to love, no matter what...but not at my own expense. As I suspect is true of most of us here, I've been codependent in my relationships including with my son.

You say you have trouble moving past enablement. I can relate from my own experience. I think I will be delving into Melody Beattie's book in the near future. Here are some quotes:
https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/706540-codependent-no-more-how-to-...

This one seems especially apropos for this thread:

“Frequently, when I suggest to people that they detach from a person or problem, they recoil in horror. “Oh, no!” they say. “I could never do that. I love him, or her, too much. I care too much to do that. This problem or person is too important to me. I have to stay attached!” My answer to that is, “WHO SAYS YOU HAVE TO?” I’ve got news—good news. We don’t “have to.” There’s a better way. It’s called “detachment.” It may be scary at first, but it will ultimately work better for everyone involved.”

Blessings to you C...

Delphine

Dephine....

Submitted by c ur self on Thu, 04/21/2016 - 11:05

Excellent quote!...There are healthy attachments and unhealthy attachments....We must know the difference....I was talking to my niece about being and adult, she is 20 and is way to dependent on her mother (Her Mother is the adult who's allowed it, and her codependency has created it)....she wanted no part of my be a grown up talk.....

It's sad, but the world is full of it....It's OK for me to have the healthy attachment God created me to have w/ my wife...What is not OK, is the Dysfunction that comes when someone use's another person or refuses to grow up an be an responsible adult....

I may read some of that book also....I sure don't have it all figured out and I've found out in my own life....There is nothing like good healthy reminders!

Delphine... Some Current Insight For You

Submitted by kellyj on Wed, 04/20/2016 - 09:10

I'm actually pulling an all- nighter tonight and taking a break right now. Part of the reason I'm doing this has to do....in part....with the situation you just shared. This was brought up in a previous thread so I won't go back over the detail here. As I was reading your comment...I put myself in your sons shoes and was thinking about what made him so angry?

The key components that you mentioned are in what you said here.......

He had work on his plate and had told me of the deadline, so I knew there was a time crunch. When he happily let me know of his plans to go out with friends that weekend, I said, literally without thinking, "Shouldn't you be working?" I didn't mean it in an accusatory, but rather a wondering pov. I know that if I were in a similar situation, I'd focus as much as possible on getting the job done.

Taking this line by line as I imagined myself as your son......

"He had work on his plate and had told me of the deadline, so I knew there was a time crunch. ......I know that if I were in a similar situation, I'd focus as much as possible on getting the job done."

Without know why.....I think you stepped right into this one? This is such a source of contention in all respect but saying....you didn't do anything wrong either. This is one of THOSE things that has to do with ADHD that is difficult to understand for almost everyone else and is one of those things that you need to accept I think. Let me try and explain

First...his reaction and going overboard. That part does sound like emotional "lability" or emotionality like you were saying. He needs to work on that part. There's really no way to excuse this no matter how difficult it is to control. Getting a handle on it is difficult and it does take some work. It would serve him to start now....the sooner the better. I've found the only really effective way to manage this is to arrest it before it happens. That means....being able to recognize the signs and stop it before it goes too far. You are right about one thing though. On your side of this...it sounds like you followed him to his room and wanted to clear the air right then and there? Especially for someone with ADHD who has this emotional lability issue.....stopping it before it goes too far only gets worse if the other person won't drop it and leave it alone and allow that to happen first....before you go back and try and talk about it and clear the air after some time has passed and that level has dropped down enough to gain your control back. I'm doing this now on my own and taking control of the situation and communicating I need a time out right NOW! If my wife won't leave it alone.....I need to remove myself from her presence in order to allow myself to cool down and then come back after the fact. It's the only way I've found to avoid what you just went through even though....I have never pushed or got physical with anyone in that way before. Not to say....I didn't have to resist it since the temptation is much harder to ignore if you need the other person to stop and they simply won't once I've asked them to. In this case....NO really does mean NO when I feel that coming on.

But before that and underneath what I think might be happening? Has to do with your statement about what you would do if that were you and you had a deadline to meet and ony so much time to do it in. This is where I can offer some insight that might help you understand what it was that he was so upset about and was probably unable to fully understand this himself? This is a combo of ADHD struggles happening all in unison so bear with me.

What you got going on here from the ADHD perspective is.....

Difficulty getting started

Difficulty staying focused for too long without needing a break or some times in between to recover

Difficulty getting motivated without something to push you whether you do this on your own....or let circumstances to this for you

And finally.......challenges with shifting gears and moving from one task to another.

Standing back from this and assuming for a moment....that your son knew what he was doing and why to a certain degree whether by instinct or experience with this.....what this amount to is a lot more than just " staying focused to get the job done. Sounds easy and straight forward and I now that it basically is a good approach all things considered. What I've found however for myself....I have certain rituals and things that I tend to do in situations like this in order to meet deadlines under pressure (and have done most of my life) that I now understand the reason why?

Before I started on medication....I could not do any work on anything past say 7;00 pm. There seemed to be an invisible wall that I hit and when that happens....I done and down for the count. No amount of trying harder or pushing myself through ever seemed to work. To the point....I took a study hall class every term in school just to get my homework done. I knew if I didn't get it done before I left school...it wasn't going to happen. Night time was just no good and I was no good at anything past the point when I hit the wall. I could spend 4 hours trying to do what would take me 45 minutes first thing in the morning and not do what ever I was doing....as well, without mistakes and without doing it over sometimes until I would scream and still not be able to complete my task. I'd go to bed and wake up...and do it once without a flaw in a fraction of the time Time of day is extremely important and there is not much you can do to change this or make it any better. Staying away from and recognizing my wall is the key to success or not in this case.

Either that....or I just can't stop or rest at all. If I'm on a roll and the wall seems not to be happening.....I can putter along in a slow and consistent manner without any pressure and still make it on time but that means....not stopping for anything else and doing it continually until it done. This is the least desirably way but sometimes...I have no other choice. Once I catch that wave....I need to ride it for all it's worth and make it to the beach! But I never know when that window will open for me. Sometimes....there is no wave and therefore....the wall comes sooner than later?

When ever I use to go on long road trips.....I use to always leave at midnight and drive all night until first light and then pull over and take an hour nap and then continue on for the entire day until I reached my destination. This I found works better for me than driving two days with one night in between and I can't tell you exactly why? Something about starting...and then stopping...and having to start up again completely takes me out my rhythm.

But in every case I can imagine....I do best doing things at the end of the time a lotted instead of doing it first thing and then having time left over. This has to do with performance and doing my best work more than making sure I'm on time.

Between the two.....I like to have plenty of time to think about it first (quite some time) and then go and do it so part of the process for me....is thinking about, gearing up for it, mentally doing it in my mind first....and then doing it. I find if I can do that and prepare for it first and give some time to ease into it....I do much better in every respect.....than jumping right in and doing it at the first opportunity.

From the sound of it....this is what you are saying you would do. For me....it sounds like I would do what your son did and take the weekend to mentally prepare, get relaxed and have some fun....and then dive in and go none stop until I got it done. The problems with doing it this way seem obvious but not so much out of procrastination.....the problems come of course....if something unforeseen happens the things don't go as planned. That or.....I miss calculate how much time I need and that has happened plenty of times too.

For the reasons I said.....this old system worked....and it didn't work...but regardless of which way I do it....I still have to contend with these challenges and doing it the way you might do it still does not work exactly as you might think. I have yet to find the perfect quotient in order to balance all of this but....when push comes to shove....I know I can fall back on what I know and still manage to get things done.

Unfortunately....this is what I'm doing tonight. I had a great day today and got an incredible amount of stuff done on my list...but as these things go....I had some loose ends still to finish before I was completely done with everything on my list. When I came in feeling good and ready to call it a day......I could tell my wife was unhappy about something and I asked her why? As she does....she reaches a point where my work at home starts to get to her and tonight for whatever reason...was one of those times.

It was interesting to read the part where you son was happy to go off for the weekend and then he blew up when you mentioned his work? In the same way....I WAS happy and feeling good and things were lined up just the way I needed them to finish in the order that I need to do it....but now.....with my wife being unhappy with the uncompleted part and knowing where this has gone before....I will not try and explain this again since I have done this with her many times before. This is where....I won';t go there with her and I refuse to change the way I do my work in lew of her just not liking something at my expense. Each time I have suddenly changed for her in the past....the ripple effect this has had on my ability to do my job and caused me a huge amount of stress...mishaps and not getting anything done to have to suddenly change or shift for her?

To avoid what you went through with your son....and to avoid not paying the price of not following through with my plan as intended....tonight....i fall back to what I know and keep moving until I'm done. This is how I am currently managing this and I find I get mountain of work done by pulling these all nighters without any interference or flack from my wife. I find that she likes to pull me away from my work constantly with little things here and there...kind of all day long. They're little things but they add up in time. The time is not the problem....it;'s the cost in momentum and a disruption of me managing my challenges that balls things up for me. When it comes to the time it takes to do these little things for her all the time....it's the time...plus the start up.....plus the lost momentum....plus the time of day ( I'm like a battery....by best time is also the time my wife wants me to do thins as well. Keep her happy....and I pay the cost in both productively and stress and anxiety and less money. Keep me happy...make more money...get more done...I;m in a better overall mood....and my wife mood plummets because the way I need to work....interferes with what she wants. This I have found.....is a no win situation....that is until I started pulling my all nighters. I have found....like it was back in the day on road trips....I travel amazing distances in 1/2 the time and sleep only when I get there with a couple of naps as needed.

So you see....approaching things the way you would do it....is not a simple as it might seem. I know better than to fight about this since I've explained it for the last time to my wife. I no longer explain any of thins anymore to my wife since she is really not receptive or amenable to making any compromises to things she does not understand. She has a real intense need for meaning and understanding or she cannot wrap her head around thins and make any compromises. This is where...i do not make anything contingent on her or change course what so ever and this works out fine as long as I can keep this up and not get into it with my wife about this. I stay completely clear of trying explain why I need to do thing in these different ways anymore. I just do it....and don;t talk about it and things get done and that's all she knows.

I have discovered one thins from trying different things to see if they will work. The last and worst way for me in every respect....is the way my wife does things. If I took her lead in how I do things like this....I think I'd have to throw myself in front of a moving train! That how bad it was for me when I tried that for a while at first!! Start...stop. Start....stop. Start...stop Start...stop. Nibbling and chipping....nibbling and chipping. This is how she works and it seems to work fine for her and she is likely to start immediately like you the first chance she gets since she cannot stand to have things like this....'on her plate." This is what drives her loony. For me....I'm just the opposite?

I do that too....but the first half of the time.....I'm thinking about it...getting psyched up to do it.....get ready, set......Bang!!!

For me to do it her way? ..........AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!! Where's that train!!!

That's why when I read the part where you said....".I know that if I were in a similar situation, I'd focus as much as possible on getting the job done "....... I went uh oh....I think I see where part of the problem might have been? Just so you know?

This is the biggest problem I face when i'm trying to ge things done and right now....I'm on a roll and my wave have come in! Cowabunga and it's a beautiful starry night tonight! :)

A space of one's own

Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on Wed, 04/20/2016 - 07:46

May the stars be shining on you, J.

This post that you wrote tracks very much on what my husband says and does about his work. Again it is so phenomenally helpful because you are wonderfully able to talk about your interior life as these exterior events are going on. That gives me, who of course can't see inside my husband's mind...nobody can see inside another person (exception: saints with a gift for it, but how many of those are around). I think there's something to the claim that some (I say some) people without ADHD are able better to predict another person's mentality, feelings, etc, from memory of past words and evens, but I think attributing that power to people without ADHD tends to be vastly overrated. We nons are "supposed to know" what our partners are wanting, thinking doing. Alas, even the recommendations to us for living with someone with ADHD in a beneficial way can skew to presuming that we've got interpersonal night goggles and can see inside our ADHD family member's soul. You don't, J. You don't lay that on us. But perhaps at times the professional describers of ADHD/nonADHD relationships do, and perhaps we ourselves fall into ....(sigh)....the codependent temptation to believe that we are fixit gods able to know what our partner is thinking.

Well, I know, because it was dang hard to find my own interior life, and start to learn its landscape, that I'm a goner really knowing what's going on inside of anyone else, and due to ADHD/non ADHD differences in wiring, really know that about my hub. I don't know his interior landscape, unless he speaks and tells me something about it. What you do for me when you write posts like this is that suddenly a whole cluster of behaviors seen on the outside click into place and make sense because you've described what's going on on the inside of you, when you do those exterior things....and then I get a possibility of his interior life. Which ups my appreciation for him, and encourages me to keep on into seeking to build a life together that has room for us both as we are. Thank you. I love my man and want him well. I love me (finally), and want me well.

This helps me to see where some of the sudden, not long build up, monsoons of anxiety may be cropping up in him as he works. We both work at home. I have to get my own work done, too, we work independently of each other on two different jobs. I've never had a good handle on what good Molly is going on when there's an eruption of anxiety and wanting to tell me about it while I'm working. He has a complex work life. It's very possible that yes, he's had one too many unforeseen interruptions of what he's trying to do, that steals his time or breaks his mental train. J he does have unforeseen interruptions that demand his attention, and having ADHD, to which his attention veers, that come from within his work. The exterior habits of yours that you describe have a very high match with his, so you really have given me a possibility about what's going on inside of him...and like I say, with a possibility, I'm able to relax from as Cousin Vinnie said, leaping outo f bed in that movie "My Cousin Vinnie" (who was Joe Pesci, a favorite actor) when a train went by his motel at 2 a.m., blowing it's horn, "WHAT THE F WAS THAT?" If you get my analogy. Remember I'm still new to anything with ADHD. There are quite a few events that happen that are startling to me, because to me they have no buildup, they just kaboomie. Anyway back to you, thank you, you work like my husband does, in the exteriors. He, like you, had to take it in hand and invent things that worked for him.

I just wanted to look at this again. I really believe this that you said. From before this marriage, I signed on to a sign that I saw once posted in a work area. I'd change the word "man" to "person", since for pete's sake 50% of the workforce out of the home is women now, but with that modification I think I need this one tattooed on my forehead. The sign said: "Let every man do his own best work." We nons need to be approached taht way, as well. And that's one of the challenges of cohabitation. And you've really explained in your post why that sign needs to be observed regarding people with ADHD

I have yet to find the perfect quotient in order to balance all of this but....when push comes to shove....I know I can fall back on what I know and still manage to get things done.

Very helpful. It brings up that particular challenge of seeking and needing routine, but one's own response to routine can vary from day to day.

J, I can vouch from my work with teams of people, that as a group deadline approaches, suddenly, magically almost, but really, cars get flats, computers crash, children have emergencies and have to go to the hospital, and spouses, as if they had some sort of emotional GPS, but probably instead have had their own lives and needs, different from the worker's, suddenly lower the boom with things like "I'm sick and tired of you being gone, if you don't come back into the relationship and do X, we're in marital trouble" It's magic. It happens all the time as a big group deadline approaches. You've found an ace to pull out when that happens at your house....hope you've figured out where in the following days to catch up on your sleep, though.

And now to the motherlode of what you did for me in talking about your interior life as you do your work. Delphine's son had his own room. You've suggested, or at least I read it, that some of the blowup may have been triggered by her going into his space and in his space inquiring about his work/leisure decision. It's the space. You, by doing your allnighters not only have found time in which the other person in your household won't interrrupt, but it gives you 100% command of your space, and how you use it.

To underline something about space. My husband chose his own workspace in the house, mine is at the other end of it, but it has been a persistent problem to him that I can recognise but haven't understood (since he chose his own space) that there's something about that space, that doesn't have doors in it and it's not set off away from the main portion of the house, what his problem with the space was. In our project of adapting what we can to our individualities and shared life, I think we're on our way to other living quarters. You've given me encouragement not only to understand that he needs to choose his own space but also that like D's son, and like what you created for yourself at night, he needs to have full command of his space. In his case, he needs a door, and needs more isolation from ...whatever he finds interrrupting his attention in the house. It's not me, I'm elsewhere at work in my own space. It doesn't need to make complete sense to me. I know waht I need for myself. But you and Delphine have stressed that on our list of things for our new dwelling we probably need to insist that we end up in a situation in which he commands and controls his space more than what he's got now.

If you would, I'd like you to respond about ADHD need to have one's own space (we all do; I do), but beyond that, to have the reliability of what does and doesnt come into that space.

Thanks again,

Now

Common Theme...."Understanding"

Submitted by c ur self on Wed, 04/20/2016 - 10:00

After reading your and J"s posts this morning one thing about them jumps out....(besides loooooong,,,, lol) it makes me realize how much work it takes to come to a place of understanding and acceptance....As I read J's post, who needs his W to understand him, and how obvious it is at the amount of work he has put in, studying how she does things in comparison to the way that works for him....Then I read Now's post and her need and desire to understand her H and also her desire to be understood....Whew it tired me out! Ha Ha.....

Something I've started doing w/ my wife lately that has really helped....(I will call it a reality exercise) I may do it several times in a week when we start to do something or if our conversation starts to break down because of add, selfishness or more times than not it's the Venus vs Mars deal....

I get quiet and look at her....I hold both arms up in the air and spread them wide a part (now she already knows what that means) this is my sign of our reality....The space in between my arms is the spectrum of Life....I quietly and calmly tell her you are way over here, and I am way over there.....then I draw my hands slowly toward the center, until my hands clinch...And I say the only thing that will bring us here is Love, Respect and Acceptance....It's a needed momentary interruption for us, that is a calming dose of reality and then we can usually move forward...

I will just say one thing about common understanding...It can't be one sided....It must be common...If I'm going to do my list a little along for the holidays, and she is going to do the now, not now thing the last morning...Fine...But, when the morning arrives where she jumps up with her tail on fire....She doesn't need to look for me....If a person is going to insist or demand that...now, not know is the only why they fly....That's fine, I will respect that, but, don't look to me as your go to who chose to put in the work to be done already. Because I want touch the chaos with a 10 foot pole....That way mutual respect stays in place....

When mutual respect of our difference's are recognized and our boundaries are in place and respected...It will teach us to live together in an understanding manner even though we may be miles apart in commonality....It will also create an environment that is so non- threatening, we can learn and even change in the later years of our life.....

Peace!

The Two What? The Two Utes? What's a Ute? lol

Submitted by kellyj on Wed, 04/20/2016 - 10:43

I love that movie as well....and Marisa Tomei and Fred Quinn too! "Excuse me your honor...the two yoooouuth-s." lol

I need to come back here when I can spend the time to respond properly to this.....I'm still up and still riding my wave and it seems to still be peaking without flattening out....

But in quick summary of all the things you said....and it light of the fact that I just went through exactly what we are talking about (and still in it).....the main and continual problem that has always been.....is trying to convince other people that you need to do things in a certain way that they simply are not going to understand. But.....there is a real reason why and it's not something that you are just making up or making excuses for. The problem comes from not knowing what that is and not being able to recognize it and pin point it in order to tell other people "precisely and accurately" what that is?

Instead.....the lying and making up lame rationalizations ( like C's wife did in his example ) which had more to do with a different aspect it seems for her.

Quickly...for comparison here.....I thought about what C said about hoarding. I know a little bit about hoarding behavior from actually watching the show "Hoarders". It was painful to watch in one aspect....but a relief in another from what I learned from it. It seems....with true hoarders....there is a symbolic attachment to the things and their life in some way. The things seem to chrono-matically mark their life like a notch in a calendar to represent and preserve each day or time of their life. The items never get used....but there is an attachment to them and their person that is like removing a part of them by taking that away. This is where I was somewhat relived when I understood this because....this is not what happens with me when I get too much stuff and clutter around me and have to many things and not enough space to manage them.

For me....this happens for an entirely different reason and I am not that attached to most of the things I have around me most of the time. In fact....the only reason I have them in the first place is to make money on them and they are actually part of how I make a living. The point in the very beginning is to sell them and not keep them at all? My problem is organizing and storing more often than not....and letting things build up before I address them and it becomes a problem. I want to get rid of it, or use it and if I don't after not that long a time....I then WANT TO make it go away.....that's the point!! lol

So you see right there.....looking at it from the outside....one might assume hoarding. But I don't really have a problem letting go of anything and am not a big collector of stuff. I hate nick nacks and curio cases full of lot of stuff and mainly choose to narrow down only a couple of things that I am really attached to in any way. The rest of it could go tomorrow and I would be fine with that as well?

So what might look like hoarding on the outside....is not what's going on on the inside exactly as you said. You cannot use what you see to access what it looks like and assume you know in every case. This is part of the problem that my wife has with "meaning and understanding." She is so concrete and black and white sometimes in her thinking....she cannot grasp "abstraction" and to her....everything looks the same. If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck....IT HAS TO BE A DUCK and nothing else. There are no other possibilities in the universe for her and even if you show her it's not a Duck but looks and sounds like one....she will refuse to accept that it's not a Duck even with the proof that it's something else. This is a problem for someone with ADHD!!! lol

I'll come back later to respond about the space.....I think you are on to something for sure:)

Before I Forget...A Big One..Maybe an Elephant?

Submitted by kellyj on Wed, 04/20/2016 - 11:26

My wife and I have a completely different outlook on work. She has an adversarial relationship with work and even to the point I think....an adversarial relaltionship with life as she approaches things. I mention this to her once in passing about work....and a couple of days later...she came to me and said...."I think you're right."

In this case.....I'm a little more than speculative and almost sure I am in this case. I do not see work as something to avoid or to get past so I can be happy. Work is part of life and therefore....work should be integrated into a positive outlook over all and not something to hate, avoid or just endure with no benefit other than a pay check and everything else is loathed and hated every minute you are working. I have found a way to do this and I know in my case....this has not always been the case. So from where I am from where I started....it's easy to recognize where my wife is which is definitely.....adversarial. She is fighting against it and sees retiring as her only salvation. Her life is on hold until she no longer has to work and live in Hell all the time since work is Hell and that is that.

I also think...this extends outwardly to everything else including the relationship with me. When she gets depressed and overwhelmed...she sight "work" as the problem since work is Hell and Hell sucks to live in. In the moment....she will repeat over and over..."I have to work so therefore......" "my life sucks"..."I'm depressed"...."I hate my life"......It's all bad and the entire work experience is a horrible painful thing and nothing is right as long as there is work to be done.

I listen to this until she's done and there's a long pause like she waiting for me to say..."I completely understand what you're saying....I feel so sorry that you have to work." ....which I don't because I don't feel that way at all. I'm not a work-a-holic and enjoy and look forward to time off and can leave work behind and not think about it and enjoy other things as well. This is where a little compartmentalization is a good thing not a bad one?

The difference is that I do not have an adversarial view of work. Taking that further....I don't have an adversarial relationship with my life of other people including my wife but it seems so often.....I am fighting against something in her that seems to make no sense to me? She fighting it to and I find myself fighting it yet it seems somewhat unspoken and invisible to me? What I finally noticed this and mentioned it to her....it seemed like a revelation to her that she had not thought about before. This was telling and further....makes me think that she needs to change her relationship with her life and remove that adversarial part of it across the board. Work....is just one aspect of the Elephant....but that Elephant goes with her everywhere she goes as well.

This is where.....I cannot fix that in her. This is where....she needs to change that relationship and until she does....she still going to defualt to fighting and instead of adapting and becoming more elastic and flexible. Honestly....this is at the heart of what I believe is what I have been fighting against all along which has nothing to do with ADHD, me or anyone else for that matter. That fight needs to stop inside her...before she will stop fighting the world and everyone in it. That includes of course.....me.

J, this is interesting.

Submitted by dedelight4 on Wed, 04/20/2016 - 12:50

I am interested in what you have said here. The chaos in my husbands mind is often represented by the chaos and disorganization that constantly surrounds him. He HATES it, but doesn't want to change it at the same time. He has always had an office in our house(s), and no matter how small or how BIG the space, he manages to fill them up with STUFF. It's always a mess, he can never find anything and he will NEVER let me help him clean and help organize it.

When I left the house, the downstairs was spotless, but his office (a huge bonus room) Is so bad he can barely walk through it. It hasnt been cleaned in over 3 years. The cobwebs are so bad you have to duck under them to go up and down the stairs. The room is filled with his music equipment, instruments, paper, tools, junk, computer stuff that is endless and wires running all over the room.

I went home last week for a day, and he has now started using the rest of the house for his "spreading out" room. Wires, electronics, papers, clothes, etc. The 2 car garage is also filled to the brim with his stuff. We cant get a car in there, and we have to walk through a path to the door, tripping over tools and wires. I've tripped and fallen many times from all the wires that never get picked up. I stopped cleaning up all his messes a few years ago, except the main ones in the main part of the house.(kitchen living room, bedroom, dining room.)

He mows the lawn about once every 6 to 8 weeks, and instead of a lawn, it looks like we have a yard of crop circles. Its so bizarre. He made a rule that no one can do the mowing but him, and the yard looks like hell. Theres junk all over the back yard because he says we dont have the money for a shed. Our HOA must be livid, and currently there is a lien against our house for unpaid dues.

I dont understand why he makes more money than he ever has before, but we live worse than we ever have. I dont spend any money on myself at all now, and he makes all the money decisions. We lived better when I did all the shopping, and we still had money for bills. The bills got paid. Now hardly anything is getting paid. Im worried. Im going to have to go back to the house and make him pull everything out and show me everything he's been doing, because this is totally nuts

This is sort of making me think that with the ADHD, there is hoarding going on as well. He's always blamed us for the messes, the no money, and everything else. Will he EVER see that he is the one doing this? Theres no one left in the house but him to cause all these things hesbeen blaming on us. At what point does anyone, even people with ADHD stop and think, "What is really happening here"?

The Story of My Life Dede

Submitted by kellyj on Wed, 04/20/2016 - 13:55

But I have learned from these lessons.

I found myself in your H's shoes (him currently) and did the same things. No one there to stop me...so I indulged myself at will. This is where I really learned the most about my ADHD.

I don't understand the crop circles...but it did make me laugh! Not to take from your pain in this....but, how hard is it to mow the lawn. I was doing that when I was 11 or 12? ( one of my job duties at home). I caddied briefly at a Golf course down the rode....so I guess I picked up the finer points from watching how they did it? Go over it one way first...and then go back over again at a diagonal to make it look like you know what your doing. I've been doing that forever so I don't get the crop circles? lo

Spreading out however is an ADHD thing I'm almost certain of? I can't work with things inside drawers or where I can't physically see them laid out in front of me. Why is beyond me but....it takes a completely different approach to manage this and this is exactly what I am working on right now to make sure it doesn't keep happening.

Part of that has to do with a well documented thing that happens when you put something into a draw, cubboard or inside a box where you no longer can see it. I think it has to do with needing external cues for things since when they are put inside something and out of sight....they effectively disappear? And when they disapoear....they no longer exist? And when that happens....you have trouble finding them or...you go out and buy another one thinking you don't have it....just to find two more that you put away in an effort to stay neat and tidy? lol There are more problems associated with this but....the answer I have found that works...is to put peg board up on all the walls in the work area and have everything hanging on the wall with outlines for each tool or thing you use and and they are always in plain sight any time you need them. If it didn't get put away....the outline is there to remind you to find it and put it away even if you forget. This works splendidly....but forget about having one of those dream garages with sanitary floors and everything out of sight like you see in a magazine. This is all about function....form has to take a back seat and there is no two ways around it.

The other thing I have done to work around this...is to have multiple work stations with it's own set of tools for each one. This means....duplicate tools for each station and they stay there and they do not get moved. Any time I try and do more than one function and use one space for multiple functions....it goes into chaos immediately and starts looking like you described. Having dedicated stations and organizing them like and assembly line ( back to the assembly line factory concept).....I move from one to the other....the tools don't move and always stay put.

This takes more space to do and that's why I custom built my entire shop around this concept from start to finish. It's completely customized to fit my needs and counter things that cause me problems in the past. I think this is part of not wanting anyone to do things for you since....they would have no idea what to do or what you are trying to avoid? I have literally adopted and manufacturing assembly line concept with over head hoist and conveyors to move things from one station to the next so each station gets used for ONE purpose only and there is no over lap between stations. ( we're talking about work here just to be sure) A normal garage with limit space you could not do this with. I think....as I did exactly as your H is doing in the past.....spreading out over the entire house is his attempt at solving this same problem?

What I found is what you are seeing. All that did was make a big mess and create a bigger problem than before. Containment and keeping things simple is the solution but doing in the way I'm doing it now with a dedicated plan or attack.

Also....him making more money but a bigger mess. That's a definite trade off diliema? If you are focused only on the task at hand...you don't stop to clean up and put things away. The comromise for me is in the work station concept. If I keep it really simple and everything is at my finger tips and out on the wall where I can see it, get to it and put it back quickly and easily....i can do that without a problem and not have to Start...stop.....to clean as I go. The simpler...the better. KISS....keep it simple stupid. I live and die by that one and use it to determine how I am going to set things up. what that looks like when I'm done....is what it looks like. There is no design or esthetic consideration what so ever. In the work that I do....it looks like a work shop not a show room but at least....I can find things, put them away and keep moving without stopping. If I had to keep it looking good and completely sanitary and put it on display....this would hinder this immensely to the point....it couldn't happen. That's the trade off but it works. This is the 5th shop that I have designed and built so I know from each time I've done it....how to improve it and what not to do.

And as it sounds with your H.....he's finding out the hard way....what doesn't;t work? I did that too but....experience is the best teacher in this case? He needs to fail and learn from his mistakes.

But again to reiterate the critical aspect that he is not far off the mark. If someone does this for you....they will do it wrong and possibly make matters worse if they apply what they would do and the reasons why. This.....absolutely....does not work!! At least...when you have multiple skill sets....multiple job functions....and hundreds of tools to keep track of and each one does a specific thing and designed to do a specific function....flow charts and work flow by function and in the proper order.......and then simplifying it all to it's lowest common denominator and making every as easy and simple as it can be is the only way to go for me. Esthetic's is the last considerations sometimes...and sometimes is not even on the map.

It does look very industrial and professional however and the space is used to it's fullest. I use every inch of wall space and use hoists and conveyors to move things from the attic to shop and back again to keep things out of the way....but accessible in a moments notice. Everything is out where I can see it with few cabinets or draws except for a few storage containers for long term storage and racks and shelves in every available space on every wall. Nearly every inch of wall space has something on it and and I go up.....if I can't go out. That even includes the ceiling space. No space is not used in order to keep things at my finger tips at all times and makes putting things back just as easy. I have multiple coil air hoses hanging from the rafters so where ever I go....I just reach out grab one when needed. No dragging hoses, wires and cords across the floor.....They either have retractable housings that they zip back into...or they just hang there waiting for me and I never have to put anything away or move them for anything. It very much looks like and automotive assembly line plant in miniature but nothing to right home about as far as looks are concerned. ( like being inside an industrial factory bare bones and full of tools and machines with every inch of space accounted for. Function at the expense of form in every case. KISS....keep it simple stupid. It's the only way to go having ADHD.

I think the common error for someone setting something like this up would be...to look at those beautiful sanitary garage examples and pick one they like by how it looks and then find that it only looks good for the first few days until it becomes a gigantic mess. WRONG approach for someone with ADHD!!!! THIS DOES NOT WORK!!! lol

J, loved your ways of workable stations

Submitted by dedelight4 on Wed, 04/20/2016 - 18:12

Thank you again. The ideas you came up with to help you be able to work and yet "find" things is brilliant. The peg board thing reminds me of a story my husbands father told me. My FIL was very organized (army) and had his tools on a peg board work bench. The tools all had their place, with drawings of each tool behind the real tool. My husband while growing up would borrow a tool and would "put it back". BUT never on the drawing spot. It got put an inch in FRONT of the place, or BESIDE the place, or on the table afoot away from the place.......but never, ever would he put it directly ON or IN its right spot.It was if he was purposefully being defiant, so he didnt hAVE to put it in the correct place. (As his father saw it) It took no more effort to put it in its correct spot than it did the incorrect spot. My husband thought this was hilarious of his father, and didnt see what all the fuss was about. He still doesnt, and still thinks thats a funny story. I see my FIL's frustration with it, but my husband still doesnt. He says, "Whats the big deal, its in the general vacinity?"

You think this too is ADHD, or maybe some ODD in there? lol. I'd like to use your storage ideas to hand him because I think that would work for him slso. He has bought tons of duplicate items due to the other ones being in drawers or storage bins.

About the Crop circles. He actually mows the yard in big circles. But he misses some of the grass, and some is cut high, some is cut lower. They REALLY look like crop circles. The neighbors think its hilarious, but havent said anything to him about it. I dont understand this "style" of mowing, but it used to look a whole lot better when I did it. Anyway.....

Dede...I'm Beginning to See a Familiar Pattern Here

Submitted by kellyj on Wed, 04/20/2016 - 20:12

I'm laughing and crying at the same time! Too funny about the crop circles though and the thing about putting the tool back just inches from the right spot. This takes me way back in my memory and I remember.....I did the same things in my own way too. I had a flash back too about mowing the lawn.......

Here's the problem and why your Hs father got so PO'd about the tools. Sure...it's not a big deal if you only use those tools once in a while to fix a door knob or something right? Try making a living using tools and spending two hours looking for them? Once you do what (we as in the both of us) do under those circumstances.....it get old REALLY FAST! lol You spend a half hour looking for the screw driver...and 5 minutes unscrewing the screw. This is not an exaggeration. When I was doing my jewelry work....I had my bench situated with drawer right in front of me. You could literally blind fold me....and I could open a drawer and reach in and pick out the exact tool I needed by feel alone...I'm not kidding at all. You grow so accustomed to having the tool in the same place every time....you reach and grab....reach and grab and they're always in the same place. I'll bet you H's dad was spitting nails! lol Again....necessity is the mother of invention. After five shop designs now and all the innovations I've added.....those innovations were not done out of vanity to show off my handy work.....they were done simply because I discovered these bottle necks that were slowing down the entire process. I had to design and build my own hoists and conveyors since...no one made the exact one I needed and I probably couldn't afford it if they did? In fact.....my entire shop plan was designed entirely around a huge beam in the center of the shop that would hold 3 tons of weight so I can literally pick up an entire car body and move into the next station by picking it up off the floor and moving it down the line. It was the entire foundation and reason for building my own shop like this in the first place since just moving large heavy metal around without it can take up half a day all by itself. I can do this now in a matter of minutes...that's the difference in doing things in this way versus the old fashion way.....Jack / Arm-Strong ! Plus....I'm no longer 20 years old if you know what I mean which I do know you know what I mean? This is all about working smarter not harder and I've been doing this kind of thing since I was in my teens. Fatigue and mental exhaustion are both tied directly to frustration and not being able to find your tools! Almost nothing that could possibly go wrong is worse than wasting time looking for tools. I'm sure your H will find out after too long...just how little he gets done ....or....just how a big a mess he will have to dig himself out from. This goes directly back to what Mihi said about finally....getting sick and tired of these things. Yes...indeed! There's no substitution for learning the hard way. The only good thing about that is.....you usually only need to learn those lessons once! lol They kind of....stick in your memory when you find your self cursing the day you were born from your own stupidity! lol

Let him learn and give him some time to wallow in it for a while.....I'll bet he will be singing a different tune once that happens? He might even start appreciating all the things he's found that you did and how much effort it takes to do half as much!

Before I forget...the flash back to the distant past. I do remember when I first started mowing the lawn and I use to go in circles. Actually...it's a spiral starting from the outside and working towards the center until you reach the middle. It took me a minute and remembered doing that as a kid.

Get this..... the reason why I remember? So you don't have to change directions and stop to turn around and you can just continue to move forward in one continuous path to the center. Sounds good and it makes it go faster....but it looks like Hell since no yard is ever perfectly round. Sounds good on paper.....in reality....it saves you maybe 10 minutes to do a bad job. If I recall.....my Dad came home and I heard him yell into the house at my mother shouting...'who butchered the yard!!!" I think I hid in the basement until he had a chance to calm down. That's what I remembered which brought back that memory. It was kind of funny actually ( I didn't get into trouble since I took it upon myself to show everyone what a great new idea I had in saving time) and I think (if I recall? ) that was the last time I did it that way. Live and learn? lol

Yessiree, that's one reason we need a workspace each

Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on Wed, 04/20/2016 - 19:58

Spreading out however is an ADHD thing I'm almost certain of? I can't work with things inside drawers or where I can't physically see them laid out in front of me.

You'd feel right at home with us, J.

I'm married to your twin.

forget about having one of those dream garages with sanitary floors and everything out of sight like you see in a magazine. This is all about function....form has to take a back seat and there is no two ways around it.

J, I dont have ADHD, but I've got my peculiarities. I have to see it as well, and by "it" I mean a lot of things all at the same time. My husband is the king of floor spreaders, I scotch tape things up the walls of my work area. l'm talking about a whole wall. Your twin who I live with uses tabletops and then moves on to floors. Where he has your problem, out of sight doesnt exist, is that he piles on his piles and then things go out of sight....and the bottom layer doesnt exist

I'm keeping our common space in order, but it looked to me like I would mess with his mind if I startd trying to tell him handle his own thinking space, or worse, get in there and put things in there in my order. We do buy extras of things...we live in a space full of many small mysteries. Somehow I think our house has wormholes to alternate universes in it, and small objects ...and sometimes large ones sometimes get sucked through the holes into the other universe...occasionally small things come back through the wormholes into the house, and favorite pens, ear buds show back up, to small cries of joy. But many of them go through wormholes and never come back

Wormholes......yep, that explains it

Submitted by dedelight4 on Wed, 04/20/2016 - 20:02

Now....this Made me laugh out loud. I finally have an explanation where things disappear to...,,, LMAO......, love it. Thanks for the smile.

Thank You For Making Me Laugh So Hard lol

Submitted by kellyj on Wed, 04/20/2016 - 22:13

"Your twin who I live with uses tabletops and then moves on to floors." LOL!!

"Somehow I think our house has wormholes to alternate universes in it, and small objects ...and sometimes large ones sometimes get sucked through the holes into the other universe...occasionally small things come back through the wormholes into the house, and favorite pens, ear buds show back up, to small cries of joy. But many of them go through wormholes and never come back"

What I want to know is.....how do they make it back....and why only certain things? What are they doing with those things anyway? No joke....when I was really little.....I actually believed there were poltergeists living in our house stealing my things. How else could they go missing like that? lol

Or it could be methane

Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on Thu, 04/21/2016 - 07:38

https://www.yahoo.com/news/bermuda-triangle-mystery-solved-scientists-14...

: )

...catch up on your sleep, J...

Ignoring the Obvious....lol

Submitted by kellyj on Thu, 04/21/2016 - 11:50

I'm back and rested (I slepted well....Thanks). By the way....I can only do that once in a while as needed on a "one time" basis.

Bermuda Triangle or something else? KISS....Keep It Simple Stupid!!!!!

"The region is highly traveled and has been a busy crossroads since the early days of European exploration," John Reilly, a historian at the U.S. Naval Historical Foundation, told National Geographic. "To say quite a few ships and airplanes have gone down there is like saying there are an awful lot of car accidents on the New Jersey Turnpike — surprise, surprise."

"So there might not be a mystery to solve at all. These types of methane bursts that the scientists describe are a well-documented phenomenon in other areas, but other scientists debate how much they could really interfere with ships and aircraft. "

"Is the Bermuda Triangle mystery even real? Probably not, many experts say."

"....some of the ships and planes that allegedly sank in the Bermuda Triangle were completely made up by writers. Moreover, others that "mysteriously sank" actually went down during violent storms, and some ships that were lost far outside the Bermuda Triangle's perimeter get lumped into the total. "

Crop Circles or Alien Landing Strips?

Having ADHD means....most of the time, I get ahead of myself in my thinking. Most of my "half baked" ideas are just that. If I left them in the oven longer....I would see the problem before I leaped with both feet from the frying pan into the fire. Is there a need to take my time and think about things before I do them instead of jumping right in and doing things at the first opportunity? Yes! Unlike most people who can do this right on the spot.....I wait and think about it for a while and then I do them. That's why sometimes....it's not always procrastination and a need to process things longer than other people.

Is this mentally "slow" and not very "bright?" No .....it's processing speed on the spot and has nothing to do with intelligence.

Is it "absent minded"....not "using your head" and "not paying attention?" On the contrary.....it's being so focused and paying attention to what your doing in the moment TOO MUCH instead of TOO LITTLE. Having to sort out a million thoughts that are racing through your brain at all times....you get behind where you should be....and ahead of where you are. It's not an "absence of thinking"......it's "thinking too much, too fast and an not being able to process it all instantly."

When that happens.....you put things down and don't even realize it....and then you have no idea where that thing went and don't have any idea where to start looking for it?

Poltergeists, Bermuda Triangle, Alien Abduction/Changeling, ISIS ( Al Quaeda), Absent Minded, Not Very Bright....or ADHD?

KISS....keep it simple stupid:)

This is in part......that "intense need for meaning and understanding" I was mentioning with my wife. She has a tendency to see things as being the "Burmuda Triangle" instead of "bad weather" in a more chronic way of thinking sometimes. That would lead you to make the wrong choices based which one you would pick and then proceed accordingly?

And a big part of that has to do with the fact that she is so unsure of her self and lacks some self confidence at times in certain areas. She has a lot of apprehension about doing new things and/or going to new places out of fear that "something might go wrong?" or "I might make a mistake?"

Me being on the flip side of her coin.....things go wrong all the time and always have since as long as I can remember (Crop Circles)....I have no fear in these areas in my normal state of mind! lol I'm so use to that...I have had a lot of experience with these kinds of things and have found out through that experience that where there's a will.....there's a way! That....and having a lot of practice in fixing my mistakes! lol

Between the two of us.....we have skills and strengths on both sides of the same coin that are different than each others. Her strengths are my weakness's and vise versa.

We can either fight against each other weakness's....or join together and work off of each other's strengths?

Using the KISS principle here.....which one would you pick?:)

PS...Trivia Fact: 71 percent of American voters in the 2014 midterms were worried about a terrorist attack on the U.S. homeland is an indication that violent groups like Al Qaeda, the Islamic State and Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula are still hovering in the minds of many Americans....yet, you are more likely to be struck by lightning than killed or injured in a terrorist attack.

I wish I had a nickle for everything I helped her hunt :)

Submitted by c ur self on Thu, 04/21/2016 - 10:46

If we could film this stuff we would be rich...My wife goes through ear buds like I go through turkey sandwiches....Most nights if she is off, she is looking for earbuds...If she can't find them she will eventually ask me if she can use mine. This one answer (I'm proud of myself) is always no....

I have the same pair that came w/ my iPhone two years ago and i use them on my bike and at the gym which is most days.....She can't sleep w/out listening to books on tape or something. She wraps up in the cord and tear's the ends off the earbuds, (I expect find her one morning strangled) and then she will take them to work etc....I always tell her, as bad as you need them at night, why would not leave a good pair on your bed side table? She don't know LOL, and neither do I...LOL...

You lose. You snooze.

Submitted by jennalemone on Thu, 04/21/2016 - 17:02

I keep hunting for my reading glasses. I found that buying 5 pairs of dollar store reading glasses is helpful. I keep them all over the house where I might read. Then, when I can't find any, I do a search and find them all and put them in a "reading glasses" basket.

Bingo!

Submitted by kellyj on Thu, 04/21/2016 - 17:25

A woman after my own heart. I do the exact same thing except....I tend to put my reading glasses in my back pocket sometimes as well as losing them around the house....."crunch":)

If I had a Hammer

Submitted by jennalemone on Fri, 04/22/2016 - 09:16

A difference here is that if I can't find my glasses, I would not dream of asking people to find them for me. While H not only yells at me to find it FOR him, but insinuates that I move things on him, making it my fault if he can't find things. WHERE IS MY HAMMER!!! becomes an insinuation that I thoughtlessly used and confiscated it and must redeem myself by finding it for him. Maybe that is just overwhelm on his part, but all these years, I have felt belittled and accused when he is overwhelmed. Or maybe he IS the jerk he seems to be. Or maybe I am the over-sensitive person he accuses me of being. I am in the mood to "let it go" whatever it is. Just sayin'.

Jenna....This is Where Projection Comes In

Submitted by kellyj on Fri, 04/22/2016 - 12:01

Learning to recognize "projection" is really useful in these situations.

While H not only yells at me to find it FOR him, but insinuates that I move things on him, making it my fault if he can't find things. WHERE IS MY HAMMER!!! becomes an insinuation that I thoughtlessly used and confiscated it and must redeem myself by finding it for him. Maybe that is just overwhelm on his part,

OR....maybe that's all his projection "ONTO YOU". Letting it go is good....but that also implies that you "took it in" in the first place? You don't need to "let it go" in one respect....if you never "took that in" in the first place? If that were to bounce off you instead.....the answer is simply...."I didn't move your hammer" and that's the end of it....no matter what he says.

Recognizing this for what it is....is key to letting it 'bounce off you" and on to the floor where it belongs. No matter what he says.

Jenna ...For You Here

Submitted by kellyj on Fri, 04/22/2016 - 17:26

I just remembered a funny anecdote that my T has reminded me to think about in our times together in these moments about "projection." This was long before I met my wife and he was saying this in a "general sense " to get me to see it and then...let it "bounce right off you." This works with anyone when you start to get that feeling like somehow...they are trying to make you responsible for something you are not responsible for?

As he does.....(waving his hand in front me in a sweeping motion saying.. "You fool.....your Jedi mind tricks don't work here.... they have no effect on me." lol

It goes without saying.....you're not suppose to actual say it. What ever works right? :)

You only get a million of us that can tell you what that is...:)

Submitted by c ur self on Sat, 04/23/2016 - 12:13

It's add....ignore it....If you struggle to ignore it, like I do... plan your life around not being available for the abuse.....My wife's life is much like an open book....This rush to find things and the projection onto me usually only happens when she is getting ready to go to work or some where that there's a deadline to meet.....So because of the time mgm thing...I kind of know when the will u, will u, will u, where's my this where's my that....what did YOU... LOL..do with my this or that.....REALLY LOL...So when she lays in bed until she has to jump up and feed herself, dress herself and deal w/ her mind and be through traffic and on the time clock in 1 hour or less....I schedule my bike ride's to start 30 minutes before she gets up....Or I make sure I'm at the gym or running errands....Life is much more peaceful that away....

Blessings...

On the hunt..lol

Submitted by dedelight4 on Thu, 04/21/2016 - 20:08

This happens with us too, only with hair brushes (and lots of other stuff too! Lol) My husband, after his shower will start yelling/screaming......"Where did you hide the hair brush?". "It was right here, and you ALWAYS take it". I calmly walk in the bathroom, pick up the brush (laying on the counter) directly in FRONT of him, and put it in his hand. To this he always says, "It wasn't there a minute ago. You put it there just now." (Sigh)

This happens a LOT.......with all sorts of things. I just walk away, puzzled. Somehow it doesnt seem healthy for HIM to keep on doing this, because it seems it would incorrectly alter how he views me. (Like Im a thief or purposely trying to make him angry, etc, when its only in his mind.

Dede.....I Have Something to Say About This One...

Submitted by kellyj on Fri, 04/22/2016 - 10:55

This is where I pull out a big oversized cartoon "mallet" and bean you husband over the head and say "wake up Dude! And
start paying attention to these moments!" This scenario I know like the back of my hand and know the "exact answer" concerning these moments and...... "what to do" and "what not to do" and the reasons why? Step by step:)

I hear the words of my T....ringing in my ears here...."a victim, is a person who refuses to take responsibility for themselves." Which means, when that happens.....someone else always needs to be blamed for what you "should have done in the first place." No truer words could ever be spoken. What "should be" ( or is ) is actually...what you "should have done" so what ever (IT IS) is always looked at first as....."was it me?"....or was it "someone else" as your pick of options in your mind....."Always!!!!".

Part One (or step one) Why does this happen? In my case....I know exactly why and it is a legitimate reason to keep thinking it's always someone else in this one scenario....but that is "deceptive and wrong" if you don't stop to think this through. This all starts with the 'Parent Child Dynamic" that I grew up with as a child.....and that gets translated into the same "Dynamic" when you become an an adult if you are not paying attention to this and know "why you do things?"

My mother was a tad bit "obsessive" in her cleaning functions around the house. To say this another way.....she could be "intrusive" at times in your "personal space." This is why as a mother I think (and probably especially with a child who has ADHD)...your house cleaning responsibilities should "STOP"... right at your child's bedroom door!!!" If you don't like the look of a messy room....close the door so you don't have to look at it and leave it alone! Cleaning their room is only being an enabler in this scenario and it works in the opposite direction as you might have intended it. Cleaning and organizing is the problem....not that they're lazy or being willfully disobedient in every scenario. No matter which was you slice it.....coming into some one personal space and moving things around is a violation for that person and doing so....only makes that person angry!

The only lesson you are teaching that child is......when things go missing.....it's because someone else moved them!!! It's the same lesson I got and that's where that programmed response comes from. "Where's my?????? GOD DAMN IT!!!! WHO MOVED MY XXXXX!!!!!!!!!!!"

In my case.....my mother was serving her own needs in this case and all that did was teach me ( for real )....that I could never count on anything staying put and being where I left it since every time I went back to where I left off......that thing was now gone??? errrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!! We're talking about a child here not an adult. If I were to have given my own mother the advise that would have worked to avoid this.....was to make me move it and never touch a single thing of mine ever! That would have solved this dilemma no matter how messy things got in the rest of the house. That and leaving me in my squalor in my own room regardless of if it met "her requirements" for the rest of the house. Eventually....I would have (and did) get tired of it and figured out a way to take care of the problem myself which......eventually.....I did with little to no help from my mother. No help being.....her making this even harder since she kept sabotaging my efforts and disrupting my learning process by coming in and cleaning up my room since she could not stand it and it bothered her so much. But why? She didn't sleep, spend time, or use my room for anything? Why the Hell was she in there in the first place and why did that bother her? I think the answer was.....if someone saw my room....it would be a reflection of her "parenting abilities" and a reflection on her as a "house keeper" that why? Was this ever spoken or said so up front? Of course not since...she was in denial of this part and that part was the part that drove me absolutely through the roof!!!!

In reality....I was a just a kid....how much of that do you think a kid is going to figure out or have the faintest concept of? Nichts! Zilch! Zero! All I knew was....I leave my stuff in one place.....and come home and they're somewhere else? ERRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!

"MOM!!!!! Where the HELL did you put my XXXX??????" I knew nothing about ADHD or for that matter..."shit about nuth'in"....all I knew was my things had been moved and someone else moved them and that someone else was ALWAYS my mother. That's all I knew and it was true EVERYTIME. And every time it happened I got angrier and angrier until the point? That I started hiding thing and locking my stuff up so she could not get to it or touch it....that's how intrusive that was for me?

Step two comes when you become an adult and realize that other people aren't moving your stuff....but stuff still goes missing but you keep jumping to the same conclusion as you did before and now people are looking at you like your some kind of asshole or something when you accuse them of moving your things which 9 times out of 10.....they didn't except.....for that one time. That one time is enough...to prove that it's possible...... and that's enough to prove to you that you are still justified in continuing to think this way and react first.....as if "someone else is always moving my stuff" which was true in the past....but is not true NOW.

Step three is where you realize that you are jumping to conclusion and out of 10 times.....it's likely you who moved or lost track of it and you better keep your mouth shut and at least....look first before you leap! When you do that....you discover that 9 out of 10 ratio yourself and go .....oops, my bad....don't accuse until you look. This is what you learn by doing these things yourself however.....

It would have been better to learn the same lesson as a kid if my mother had not done this "for me" and I would have figured it out by myself back then eventually. Eventually for someone with ADHD....just takes longer than most other people but....none the less....you still arrive at the exact same place even if it takes a little longer and takes more patience on the part of the person on the other side waiting for them to "catch up."

Time...patience...and doing things yourself. That's the answer in every case.....and......NOT doing things for other people thinking you are teaching them how or trying to speed things up or for any other reason you can come up with. No mater what that reason IS....it's the wrong reason in every scenario you can come up with. The right answer is always allowing other people to learn and if learning the hard way for them is the only way....then so be it. If that's how they learn....then that's how they learn? You aren't going to teach them anything but "how to get angry with you" by doing this any other way. All your doing...is sabotaging the entire process and preventing that from ever happening.

For your H Dede.....he's still "stuck" in his mind that somehow......"everyone keeps moving my stuff" and that's as far as his thinking goes. When you're a victim....someone is always doing something "to you".

By the way.....I keep repeating that last line about "someone is always doing something "to you." For the record....those are my words not ones that anyone else or my T has ever said or told me. I figured those words out all by myself:)

J, this is so right on and incredible

Submitted by dedelight4 on Fri, 04/22/2016 - 22:11

I love the opening line about the cartoon hammer. LOL..I love what you said about Where is my whatever?" It certainly makes sense, and I can see SO many similarities with my husbands mother as well. She wasnt OCD, butwe did find out later on in her life that she had bipolar, but had not been officially diagnosed. ThAT answered a bunch of questions I had about her, but my husband has had her on a pedestal all his life. She was a much "older" mom, which was unheard of back in the early 50's. She didnt get married until she was in her late 30s, and had my husband at age 40. (Unheard of back then)

But she was so neurotic, nervous, with a hair trigger temper, and could swear like a sailor.(very unladylike) She was also emotionally very Cold and non expressive of any emotions except anger. No hugs, kisses touching, etc. It seemed like she really didnt like BEING a mother/wife. Also, she was afraid of almost everything.

one bizzare story is this: When my husband and his siblings were young, a bee had gotten in the house. She freaked out screaming, grabbed all the kids, ran into one of the bedrooms and LOCKED the door, because the bee was going to GET them.

all the kids were screaming and yelling, and they all stayed there until his father got home. WtF? Thats nuts. All 3 kids were terrified of bugs after that. There were other "fear based" behaviors she fostered in them, from her own fears. Ive been encouraging my husband to "look at" his early family life to get a better understanding of himself, which Ive been doing as well.

I would like to show him several of your posts, because they are examples he could totally relate to. And it could show him hes not alone in this.

Exactly Dede..Re-Accessing What Your Omnipotent (Godlike)...

Submitted by kellyj on Sat, 04/23/2016 - 10:22

parents taught you from these experiences is a must if you suspect that there's something "fishy" going on? lol

Interesting....my wife's mother was Bi-polar too....and your description fits my wife's description as well. Also interesting about denial and how that gets transferred even if you see it yourself as a child but....as hard as you might try to not be this way....some of it finds it's way in anyway? That would describe me as well. I knew something was "fishy" early on....but I didn't know what that was? It causes a lot of self doubt since...you're counting on the right answers coming from you parents and they only know what they know? As a small child especially....you think they know everything. Not being able to trust is a big issue as a result of this I think? If you can't trust or believe your own parents...who can you trust? I think that gets transferred to your close relationships and in your marriage later on in the same way? Fear and insecurity are the other unfortunate side effects as well?

When we were cleaning out my wife's mother's apartment after she died....I was helping with packing and sorting. She had all her medications where one might assume you would find them....in the medicine cabinet in her bathroom. Except.....when I was cleaning out her dresser drawers....in the bottom drawer way in back hidden behind all her socks...was her Bi-Polar medication? It seems....she didn't want anyone accidently seeing it and exposing she was Bi-Polar? That's what it looked like to me and it went right along with the stories I heard where her mother would make up many excuses and fabrications to explain commonly explained things? Sound familiar? I'm sure somewhere in the family.....mental health issues meant being put in the "loony bin" or "locked up in an asylum" some where or at least....that's what they believed?

Funny stories like the "Killer Bee" story to share here too....lol

My wife told me early on about her mother being problematic. Specifically...she warned me...."don't get it to it with her if she mentions "Prune Trees". lol Like what? My wife said..."exactly...just let that one go...it's not worth trying to argue with her that Prunes and Plums are not from the same tree or even that prunes aren't actually just a dried Plum...let that one go!!!" lol Okay??? For what ever reason....this was a real source of contention as obscure and meaningless as that seemed? lol I found out later....there were more where that one came from! lol

My mother had a number of these "old wives tales" that she believed since her mother had obviously passed those along to her. I know for me...this is where my "Myth Busting" interest came from? I had a tendency to go out and disprove these "myths" by actually trying them out for myself? Not by intention.....but this caused my mother a great deal of stress and anxiety.....needles to say! lol It seemed to be my role in the family which I volunteered for willingly! I guess....they didn't have disclaimers back then that warned about not trying these things at home and leaving that to the professionals? LOL

And another parallel in my own experience growing up in terms of how many of the husbands react to finding out that what they believe is not always true?(or in denial of?)

I found out quite early...that my father under the same circumstance (going out of my way to disprove these old myths) was met with spontaneous combustion and explosive anger! I was not getting that God does not like to be proven wrong even if you're just trying to figure these things out for yourself? lol I thought.." Gee....I can't wait to show him what I discovered??" At least, that's what I thought. lol

But that's how I responded to this same kind of thing and everyone seems to have their own particular answer in how to manage under the same circumstances I guess? This is what you find out once you reach that bridge?

As I was not so affectionately called by my father in these moments...."Mr Know IT ALL"....and "Wise Guy eh?"....that was code for keep your mouth shut or get the back of my hand! lol..... (Wise Guy eh?.....woop, woop, woop....(eye gouge) doink.....owe!!!). That's literally what I silently thought of when he said that but I never would have dared share that one with him! lol I guess that's where the humor comes from as a coping mechanism as well? What ever works? :)

I see this one a tad different J

Submitted by c ur self on Sat, 04/23/2016 - 12:29

My mother wasn't self serving by cleaning the room she allowed me to live in. She was being an example to teach me to be responsible....Before I became a man she loved me enough to teach me in the right ways of life....I was a child, I owned nothing. I was to young to get a job....Every room in the house was paid for and belonged to her...Only her love and commitment to me allowed me stay in one of her rooms, and be cared for...

There is plenty of Orphan's that can tell you what happens when you are born to parents, who aren't committed to love you and teach you how to be a responsible adult......

C...I Should Be More Clear...

Submitted by kellyj on Sat, 04/23/2016 - 13:56

that's my fault for not stating this more clearly. That "fishy" part I mentioned? I brought this up one time already in responding to Dede so I didn't mention it again here.... (about "perfectionism" and OCD behaviors) saying.....to the point that no child could follow that example and to the point....no child should be made to try? All that does is create a situation of failure and not wanting to continue and just throwing your hands up and walking away. This was the specific thing that I was actually talking about.

When normal parenting....and leading by example in a healthier sense that it sounds like in your the example? Can turn to serving (as I was saying it) obsession.....and obsession clouds all learning and no one wins? Not that my mother was trying to do this....on the contrary....I could see what she was trying to do and learned what I could from that....but with obsession....comes obsessive expectations and THAT.....is not at all good. That's what I meant by something "fishy."

Putting it better into context here......

If you are obsessive....and you have all day to clean and organize things to the degree that it takes ALL of your time to do this? How could you expect anyone else to follow that lead and do it even close as well or have the time it took that person to keep it that way. And you think....a child could keep up with that? No way!! ADHD or not?

The reality of my situation was.....no one in our household could follow that lead including my sisters or father as well? You just end up giving up and then that's when you really see this for what it is? My mother didn't flinch or even seemed to care if we did it or not.....actually, she did it anyway and never said a word and just kept on going none stop like a machine.....seemingly oblivious to anything else?

There is no teaching or learning when that happens? If teaching means....every time you do something (no matter what it is) and your mother comes in after you and does it over again right in front of you while you sit there and watch them do it to a level that you know you will never be able to do yourself (which was true or she wouldn't do it over again and make you stand there and watch her do it).

I wasn't the only one who felt this way.....this is one of those times when everyone else cannot be wrong and only one person is right? This is the confusing mixed message that this kind of thing sends How well you do it.....is NOT more important ....than just learning "how to" do it and do it consistently? This type of teaching only teaches someone how to fail and give up trying. Isn't that the most important thing after all especially for a beginner who's just learning how? Normally....you wouldn't expect someone just learning...to do it as well as the teacher first time and every time? I can't think of anywhere that this would be the normal expectation?

The net result of that...is for everyone involved to just give up trying? What's the incentive if you can never get there?

And....there is not such things as perfection anyway. The day I do anything perfectly....I will frame that thing in a 24k solid Gold frame and put it on my wall! lol I'm not holding my breath on that one because that day will never come because it doesn't exist in nature or by human hand?

Having said that and in trying to keep a balanced view......my mother was a dear and wonderful lady who did her best and TRIED to teach us all in the only way she could. The lesson got confused with the goal or outcome...instead of focusing on learning how...that's all. Her OCD got in the way of that and that's really all I was saying. Serving herself as I was saying it in this case...was actually her serving a different master and that master was in control of the lesson.....not her. I can forgive her for that much and can see past this just to be sure to all the great things I did learn and in part.....how to do things well and the importance of not doing things in a half ass way? This...I did get and I'm Thankful for that!

And Thank you for pointing this out here.....so many times....I think these things on one hand....but forget to include them on the other. I have been working on that with my wife as well and this is a good reminder for me:)

I hear you J...

Submitted by c ur self on Sun, 04/24/2016 - 00:28

I see and understand what you are saying about obsession. When a parent is blindly pressing (intentionally or our of ignorance) their children in this manner it does it's damage, as you stated....I've saw it on the sports level, and am guilty of it myself...Until my daughter told me she was scared of me one night in tears :( So, I had to take a step back and rethink it. And ask myself what is truly important here? And it wasn't her performance on the field...All she wanted was my Love... I've been helping a friend by keeping his adhd foster son at times. His behavior keeps getting him in trouble at school...But every time I keep him his foster parent (he's just 28 or so) keeps sending all these instructions...No TV, busy work, the kid is highly intelligent and a good kid...He will lie to you at times to cover his self....The kid was abused, and likes to play the victim card...I've been working on that one with him...Anyway the reason i mention it is I'm going to have to let my friend know the kid isn't a project he's a human...If I'm going to keep him at times I'm going to have to have the liberty to ride bikes and play ball and let him watch discovery channel or a family movie....He needs more than a over seer to make sure he does the work to pay for his behavioral misdeeds.... C

Lot's of good info. for understanding in this post....

Submitted by c ur self on Thu, 04/21/2016 - 10:24

Just because I understand something, doesn't make it easier to digest... LOL. But, it is nice to know the why's of things....This concept of getting it out there because certain minds do not work well when it's out of site, is something I needed to hear....

It is helpful to know the why's from people willing to discuss it openly w/ out the pain of having to wear the mask....Understanding breeds patients or it does in me.....

I've often wondered why my wife hangs a couple beautiful dresses that she either can't get in or has worked real hard to get in out in the open along the wall....When we have perfectly good closets.....And then of course the taking over all the counter and table space becomes much clear after reading this thread....

Her's is also the emotional attachment thing also, so I guess we're kind of catching it from both ends.....She was cleaning out some stuff at her old house, a year are so ago, and I dropped by to check on her. She mostly just sift's through stuff, while her memories of the items entertain her mind....She had made it out on to the front porch w/ several items....She had a pair of shoes in her hand and she was telling me the story about the shoes....They were Rah Rah's (I think that's what they use to call them)...Anyway she was telling me that they were her cheerleading shoes....High School...She is 54....She walked over to the garbage cart and dropped them in it....She turned and looked at me and said....You have no idea how hard that was for me.....You know, I'm sure she is right about that.....I kissed her on the cheek and told her I was proud of her....

Thanks guys, this is wonderful information, the kind that helps:)

Messes and hoarding

Submitted by jennalemone on Wed, 04/20/2016 - 16:41

This is all familiar to me too. No money management. No future planning.

Thank you J

Submitted by Delphine on Thu, 04/21/2016 - 04:41

I appreciate your insights. I did realize shortly after I made that comment "Shouldn't you be working?" that I had spoken too soon without thinking.

There were other issues involved in that confrontation...tension between us on money matters for one thing. He wasn't happy in his job situation, wasn't doing the kind of work that allowed him to excel, which is what he always aspires to. He seems to be in a very promising situation with that now and things are looking up. I'm sure it helps that we are no longer sharing the apartment. I did feel some regret at his leaving, but I know it's for the best. I have my own work-related issues and it is time for me to focus on cultivating my OWN garden. :) I may be a bit ADHD in that area myself as the difficulties you enumerated are all too familiar to me:

Difficulty getting started

Difficulty staying focused for too long without needing a break or some times in between to recover

Difficulty getting motivated without something to push you whether you do this on your own....or let circumstances to this for you

And finally.......challenges with shifting gears and moving from one task to another.

So I myself am not always as focused as I may have sounded when I said, "I know that if I were in a similar situation, I'd focus as much as possible on getting the job done." Well, I did have an ADHD mom (as I concluded after her passing)...I think it does rub off to some extent!

I think it can be good to pull an all-nighter once in a while. Not tonight for me though, too tired...off to bed I go! :)

Delphine

Jenna

Submitted by Zapp10 on Wed, 04/20/2016 - 08:28

Your post has hit a chord with me...and it is resonating in many ways. As with so many people here, the thoughts, ideas and observations of those in the thick of it bring a bit of clarity to the many different facets of ADD and those involved.I am beginning to believe my biggest conflict is more about my faith and my love for God. Could it be I don't have faith after all? Could it be I have no clue what love really is? HE has spoken to me during the course of my life and helped me through many situations but, at this present situation he has remained silent. I know he is WITH me but I have yet to hear from him. I ask him daily "what am I not understanding?) and .......nothing.

I realized these past few days that I exist to my H as an extension of him. I really am not an individual. I don't believe it is intentional thinking. I am one of the many" shiny" objects......the only difference is I breathe and have a heart.....I can laugh,cry, bleed,.... Being "put on a shelf" at any given time because he is "done" playing with me....sigh.

Love of self and love in marriage is a "corn maze" for me.

Thank you for articulating what I am experiencing. I could not find the words...and you did.

Husbands......sadly, we can hard on a good wife....

Submitted by c ur self on Wed, 04/20/2016 - 10:13

Zapp 10....God love's you, he loves us all...You are precious in his site.....Your identify isn't how your husband views you....Your husband, like all of us husbands, is working with a mind, that can be deceived...and that makes us all messed up in many ways!....I suggest you see yourself as our Heaven Father see's you....As a blessed daughter!...It's not flesh and blood we fight against.....It's that spirit of doubt...

Blessings dear sister...i will pray for you today....

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