Good afternoon all,
I just discovered this website last week while I was sick from stress, and decided today to join. I could write a dissertation on my challenges, but I will try to sum it up succinctly. I was so relieved to find other people dealing WITH THE EXACT SAME ISSUES as me. I really believed that I was going crazy and was failing because I continue to be missing something in my marriage. However, after reading some other posts, I could have it much worse. I'm happy to fill in specific details, but here is a brief summary:
I have been married for almost 10 years to a sweet, kind guy who always impresses me with his genorosity towards others. We dated for a few years before marrying, and I was the center of his universe. He never got angry with me, and always accepted me. After being raised in an alcoholic household the acceptance was amazing. He also came from an alcoholic family, and we bonded over that. Then we got married and from my perception things changed. I become his mother.
I was crumbling under the stress of graduate school and being the sole responsible person in our marriage. He has never had a problem holding onto a job and excelling at work, so he is a dependable bread winner. But everything else is mine, and I never get a true break. We have been to marriage counseling twice and have been active in church. The message to me is always to lean on God and look for the sin in my life AND I can only change me. That is all fine, but I am at a point where I can't go on for the rest of my life feeling like this. I do readily admit that he has tried to make an effort to be dependable, but it just doesn't ever seem to work like I need it to. I can't continue supressing my emotions and denying my needs. I bend over backwards to be a cheerleader for him. He tells me he doesn't think anything is wrong in our marriage and that I blindside him when I express how unhappy I am. I don't want a divorce. I want to save my marriage.
I walk on eggshells around him, never knowing if me or something will anger him. Sometimes even watching a new TV show is touchy because he might respond in a burst of anger if he doesn't like it immediately. I have stopped sharing with him. This is not good. Because of the dysfunctional dynamics in our families of origin, I can't be authentic with them either. I don't have any friends my age either because I live in a state where people go to retire, and when I try to tell people what my life is like I'm not sure they understand what my problem is. My mother is actually jealous of my perfect life! I believe he is also suffering with an anxiety disorder, and I can see both of these conditions manifesting in his parent and sibling as well. I dread holidays because I feel like I am the only normal person there, and there is always tension.
Physical intamicy has ALWAYS been a challenge since we got married. It was fine before we wed, and afterwards my perception is that it turned off. It still happens, but infrequently and I feel so ignored. It is also so awkward, and I can't understand why after all this time.
He does not have diagnosed ADD/ADHD, but I showed him this site over the weekend because I am at a breaking point. I am losing myself to depression. He told me that he also has wondered lately if he has ADD, and agreed with many of the symptoms. He has agreed to seek out help, but we'll see if that ever happens. I will nag him about that. It's too important to let it slide.
I also called a counselor who specializes in ADD/ADHD just for me because I need help. I'm not dealing with oridnary family problems. That is clear. I feel like I want a 6 month break from marriage and extended family just to heal and FEEL HAPPY. I'm so tired of feeling tense. I like the times when he is in a good mood, does sweet things for me, and answers me with more than one word responses. When he is happy we can laugh and laugh.
EDIT: I reread my post and wanted to make sure that I expressed how much my husband and I have tried to understand our shortcomings and respond in more productive ways, especially over the past few years. I have not been perfect, and I try really do try to change myself for the positive. My husband is earnestly trying. We have done the Love Languages book, but there are these common themes and lingering problems that remain. We need a different approach.
You are in good company
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
Hope of Deliverance,
You said:
'I can't continue suppressing my emotions and denying my needs. I bend over backwards to be a cheerleader for him. He tells me he doesn't think anything is wrong in our marriage and that I blind side him when I express how unhappy I am. I don't want a divorce. I want to save my marriage.
I understand your position! I hope you can find suggestions here on this forum to make your travels through life more positive!
I had, without knowing, created my relationship with my spouse into a child/parent relationship. My focus has been to un-create that, and try to get to build an adult/adult relationship,
Welcome!
Very Truly,
Liz
Thank You
Submitted by Hope of Deliverance on
Thank you so much for your welcome! It is so good not to feel alone anymore.
I remember complaining to my mom the first year we were married about how I felt like he was a teenager and I was his mother. Counseling helped him not treat me like his mom so much in the way he responded to my requests to help, and he tried to do things. Just could never follow through. I'm not working full time now, so it is manageable for me to do the domestic stuff. When I was working full time...now that's a different story. I'm looking more for help in our emotional relationship. We're fortunate to be able to hire out the lawn, etc and not fight about it. Since he has trouble handling stress, I can't share my burdens with him but he shares his with me. I'm overloaded by life and seemingly one-sided relationships. You can only tell yourself your mother, sister, husband are loving you the only way they know how when no one is loving you in they way you know how to receive it.
I hope that you are successful in transitioning your relationship. I wish you the very best and happiness.
P.S. I also learned early not to share marital problems with my family. Probably why she thinks we have the perfect marriage :-)
My spouse and i have been
Submitted by MrsB on
My spouse and i have been reading "Non Violent Communication" by Marshall Rosenberg and it has completely altered our dynamic for the better. If you are looking for a new way of interacting and better get you needs met, I would HIGHLY recommend.
Thanks for the recommendatino
Submitted by MelissaOrlov on
I thank you for contributing your idea about the book - I look forward to reading it myself.
I started reading it exactly
Submitted by MrsB on
I started reading it exactly at the same time as reading the ADHD Effect and found them very synchronous.
"I have been married for
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
"I have been married for almost 10 years to a sweet. kind guy...."
"I walk on eggshells around him, never knowing if me or something will anger him. Sometimes even watching a new TV show is touchy because he might respond in a burst of anger if he doesn't like it immediately. I have stopped sharing with him. "
Do you realize that those two quotes are at total odds with each other? A wife doesn't have to "walk on eggshells" with a "sweet, kind guy". A "sweet, kind guy," is not "touchy" and doesn't unpredictably burst into anger.
I'm not saying the above to be mean. My H is very touchy, and we do have to "walk on eggshells" around him, and sometimes he can be very nice and generous, but I (and no one who has seen his irrational outbursts) would never first describe him as a sweet, kind guy....even though he sometimes can display those charms.
The fact that my H (and your H) are unpredictable, are very touchy, and have unreasonable anger really means that their first descriptors would not be "sweet and kind." Those who've seen the behaviors would more honestly apply first descriptors like, "unstable" and "irrational."
People like this are like a box of candy. Many of the candies may be quite tasty and enjoyable. But, out of the box of 30 pieces, there are 5-10 pieces that are toxic and bitter, and you don't know which is which until it's too late. Who would describe the overall box with two favorable descriptors? No one.
Another part of your story mentions how unhappy you are and how annoying it is that you have to be the adult in the marriage.. Again, that doesn't fit with being married to a sweet, kind husband.
Believe me, I understand. Until recently, I've been the "stable and responsible adult" in the marriage. My husband also has been the very reliable breadwinner (thank goodness!). It's only been since he's retired after 40 years of working, that he's actually noticing and taking care of a few things around the house. For over 35 years, he never washed a dish, never knew how to turn on a dishwasher or really do anything outside of his paid job or his hobbies (sports). He didn't even know how to sweep a floor. Seriously. I couldn't rely on him to take care of our kids for more than a very short time. He'd be in his own little world and when I'd come home from the grocery market, I'd find our little ones in some sort of major mess while H was "zoned out" watching TV, totally oblivious that our kids had gotten into things that they should not have. Our now-adult children have repeatedly said, "when we have children, dad can never be allowed to watch them" I understand.
However, the bigger issue became the "walking on eggshells" part. It's like walking a mine field, never knowing when you might "trip the wire" that causes the explosion. You often "never see it coming."
As you mention, you've been married for 10 years. If your H won't get effective treatment and possibly medicated, it will get worse. The first 10 years of marriage, for me, were a 10 times better than the last 10 of our 35 year relationship.
I know it can be very hard to come to terms with the fact that a spouse isn't "a good spouse," because accepting that means facing the possible reality of many more years of outbursts and instability or ...divorce.
Well yes, but...
Submitted by MelissaOrlov on
Very few of us are always consistent. I consider myself, for example, to be an excellent partner now...but I have not always been an excellent partner. And even today I sometimes do things that would be considered negative.
My husband and I were at a conference recently and a woman there said to me of my husband "I knew he could be quite ferocious from his reputation. But what I didn't expect was how generous he is, as well. I really enjoyed getting to know him better."
Yes, exactly.
One of the things I most like about being with my partner when we are good together (which has not been all of the time, as everyone who knows me knows) is that he has what I call sharp edges. When things align (as they most often do) that means he is interesting and surprising. This characteristic is one of the reasons we have been together for so long. Life with my husband is never, ever boring. When things are not in alignment, those sharp edges hurt.
It is good to remember that the behaviors of today are not, necessarily, indications of innate personality traits. Most often a partner is walking on eggshells because the other partner is not at their best...or even 'at their good enough.' That does not mean that that person isn't a good person - or even, over the longer-term, a good partner. It does mean that something in the relationship needs to change in order for that relationship to become healthy again for both partners.
Always good to make that distinction, I think.
Sharp Edges Hurt When You Bump Into Them
Submitted by kellyj on
I think what you said here Melissa is profound. This is the same "image" that I have arrived at myself exactly (these sharp edges)....funny how these patterns and the things we come up with to address them plus the conclusions that we all make from them are common to both sides of most couples impacted by ADHD. And they all appear to be the same or very similar to another even though we are all entirely different in our own individual ways. This may sound like I am stating the obvious because it really is.
I have also discovered through knocking down even just ONE issue or even one tiny component within it ......what a dramatic shift has occurred in our relationship together....and the transformation that has occurred within my wife herself from such a small and seemingly insignificant change. What is not insignificant on my end is the amount mental energy and work it took to arrive at such a seemingly simple thing to do. The results of which on the other hand....... has had a corresponding positive ripple effect to our relationship which seems to be enormous in it's coinciding impact in the weight that it carries behind it. In comparison to the small thing that I managed to change coupled with the amount of effort I put in...it really does appear to worth the time spent and effort I put in and it does make a difference. This ripple effect is now what I am paying close attention to.
What I have discovered simultaneously taking place that goes along with just one change, as seemingly insignificant as it might appear....are within those edges themselves. They have begun to soften a bit. They don't hurt as much when I bump into them with my wife and without even questioning this any further....the feedback I get from her suggests the very same thing from my and side and what my wife sees happening with me.
I believe I have made one of the most important discoveries of all within this seemingly obvious but not so obvious transaction between the two of us. It really is "the little things that count." I'm saying this from the ADHD side of things now. They're extremely important and they really do matter to me. In fact.....they matter so much more than any other single big thing or even all the big things combined. For me personally.....bigger is not better. I'm saying this now in what I truly want from my wife more than anything else. These are what make all the difference in the world for me.
Bigger is not better. This is absolutely wrong in what I am trying to say.
The accumulation of these tiny specks of dust in our relationship spread into a disease and infect our entire relationship. One of the symptoms of this infection are those edges you were talking about. They're not just on the side of those of us who have ADHD.....they're on our partners side as well. They are inextricably tied together and connected along with the connection we have with each other.
The infection is in the connection! Those tiny specks of dust are the pathogens that create the disease. Those edges are the symptoms and both people who share the same connection share the same symptoms and maladies from it together at the same time.
Speaking for myself here in what I now firmly believe is true.....treating the symptoms is not the answer. I think most people would agree that this is not going to cure an infection. It's these microscopic things called 'germs" that are really the cause.....the ones that you can't always see or we easily dismiss as not being important and the ones staring us right in the face everyday.
When I first came to this forum.....I had no idea what I would find or even what I was looking for....but I knew as I spent more time reading and contributing here that my gut was leading me to something but I just couldn't put my finger on it. It was driving me nuts trying to find it but I think at this point that I have. It really was one of those things that is staring you right in the face and yet...... we just can't see it.
This time....l listened to my gut and heart instead of what my thoughts were telling me to do..... or what I thought was true...... yet my gut and my heart were definitely trying to tell me something and they were not going to leave me alone until I found the answer I was looking for.
In my own words here.....what I just said above is now what I firmly believe in and what is absolutely true for me. I can't speak for anyone else now....but this time I think that my gut and my heart are telling me the truth. I suspect....that because of these patterns we all share as couples and people....that this might be the universal answer in how to solve this problem that we all share together. Speaking solely for myself.....this is my answer that I was looking for and I am now confident to just follow my own advise and focus on the specks of dust instead of the mountain that they created. One speck at a time.
In conclusion here? It's not a mountain that these specks of dust create but it only seems that way at times. At times or all the time if nothing ever changes. One kind word from my wife has the same effect as chopping this mountain in half each time I hear one come from her. One act of kindness....one word of forgiveness....one thoughtful hearfelt moment is all I need to change my entire outlook for an entire day. Each time I receive one of these little gifts from her is the equivlent of renewing my faith in her each time it happens. I appreciate these so much that it makes me even more motivated in doing something for her in return.
It's hard to really appreciate or be thankful for all the times when my wife does do things like picking up after my messes since these are received on my end with only anger or disdain. Even when I thank her for doing them which I really do and it's sincere...there is no reciprocation on her end or even acknowledgement that I thanked her. The only appreciation she is looking for is not doing these things at all in the first place which as much as I want that for her....it is so terribly difficult for me to always do them. It's also hard to appreciate these things since I know they are things that I should have done myself or ones that I simply overlooked. My anger as a result from the hurt I feel from it is also hard not to feel at times. This is truly what gets in the way between my genuine appreciation for her and everything that she does to help me in my struggle with this...and her inability to hear it and receive it each time I do. The impact and weight that they these things carry with them prevent us from seeing past these seemingly huge appearing mountains or obstacles...but in reality....these tiny specks, the princess and the pea or pebble in our shoes are the things that are ruining our entire day since they happen everyday we can't seem to find a way around living with these specks when they become too many and too often.
The inconsistency or failure on our part it seems....is that these pebbles or specks of dust become more important than giving and receiving all the good things that happen everyday and focusing on those things instead. This is what seems to happen and where all the real inconsistency truly is in our relationship. When I stop hearing my wife because of all the negative comments that come my way....I also miss all the good things she says too if I stop listening to her or if she stops saying them to me. The same is absolutely true on my side as I do the same thing with her as well.
These are the "little things" that mean so much to me and the ones that I never miss when she says them to me anymore. In turn.....I try and do the same thing with her as often as I can on a regular basis......the truth within the real consistency or inconsistency that makes all the difference in the world in the connection between us. Instead of "I'm sorry" or "I appreciate you doing these things for me".....I tell her how much I appreciate "her" instead. I do this because this is what I truly want to hear from her more than anything else not....what a good or bad job I did at cleaning up after myself.
J
I agree that humans are not consistent.
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
I agree that humans, because of their inherent imperfections, are not going to be consistent. That's not really the point here. We aren't talking about mentally-healthy people here, who are just normally flawed. We aren't talking about the spouse who raises his/her voice when he/she discovers that the other spouse has bounced ANOTHER check that month or forgets to pay the rent and now they're getting evicted. And, we're not talking about run-of-the-mill human frailties that are "mixed in" with wonderful attributes.
We are talking about abusive behaviors...abusive anger that is emotionally damaging. Those behaviors are the ones that cause people to "walk on eggshells."
I don't know if people who are prone to inappropriate anger or rage are innately damaged or not. It doesn't really matter. The fact remains that they aren't primarily "kind and sweet." People who are primarily kind and sweet are too concerned about others to frequently hurt them with inappropriate outbursts.
Everybody, even the most evil amongst mankind, can occasionally be "kind and sweet." However if their family members must "always on their guard" because anger or rage can erupt over minor issues, then "kind and sweet" is more the exception than the rule.
Imagine the non-impoverished parent who frequently dresses their child in dirty tattered clothing. Suppose that parent occasionally dresses their child in nice clean clothes. Would that parent deserve positive descriptors because he/she occasionally does the right thing? No. Does it matter that there isn't an innate reason why the parent is doing that to the child? No.
Even when someone behaves well the majority of the time, if their "bad behavior" only crosses the line occasionally, that's not good enough. We don't excuse physically abusive parents just because "she only beats her children twice a year. The other 363 days she's nice and generous to them." Right??? We know that because that person can and does "cross that line," even if only twice a year, that they lose the "good parent" descriptor.
But in this case, the line isn't only being crossed twice a year. Spouses don't "walk on eggshells" if their spouses only lose their tempers twice a year. Spouses walk on eggshells when their spouses frequently exploded, and they explode over very minor incidents.
Where do you draw the line?
Submitted by MelissaOrlov on
You are asking a fundamental question here, I think, which is "where do you draw the line?" I know that I have some bright white lines that I will not cross. For example, if any man hit me it would be an instant end to our relationship, including divorce. If I believe my child's safety is at risk I will do ANYTHING to protect that child.
But by the standard that you set - that any sort of anger that feels abusive enters the relationship - even twice a year - then the relationship is 'bad'...I just don't buy it. First of all, EVERYONE experiences anger in their relationship at some point or other. If you don't, then chances are very good that the relationship is not healthy, in fact. Someone is stuffing their emotions into a box. So, if everyone experiences anger, the issue then becomes how does the person express that anger? And this is the crux of the issue, I believe. The assumption that the presence of anger (leading to walking on eggshells) means you have an unhealthy or unsafe relationship, rests upon a highly charged, abusive, overpowering type of expression of that anger. And the question becomes this - can you learn to express your (very normal) anger in a way that is constructive? Or is the fact that you become angry (perhaps easily) make this a personality trait that makes you a bad partner? My experience is that in the vast majority (but not all) cases,it is not your anger, but how one expresses anger. And doing so constructively is a learned skill - and one that many people are not motivated to learn until they are really in a bad place with someone they care about (often a spouse.) That means that there is a lot of damage to get past...but it does not mean that learning a new way is impossible.
The perfect example - me.
I was verbally and emotionally abusive to my husband for some number of years as I struggled with all of the crap around what I now call The ADHD Effect. I'm not a bad person (in fact, I think I'm a very good person, and very strong). My husband was verbally and emotionally abusive to me, and spent some good amount of time rejecting me as a form of escape and punishment. By the standards I think you are setting, our relationship was inherently bad and over.
But we have both learned to do better. Much better. And our relationship is very, very good now. All of the emotional and verbal abuse is gone. And we have learned - with lots of hard work, and some big mistakes -how to be really good partners to each other.
I've seen the same thing happen to other couples. It's one of the reasons why I keep doing what I do. Many of these struggling relationships - full of behaviors that make couples walk on eggshells - can change as partners learn new skills...and how to forgive each other. Part of this last - forgiveness - rests on the idea of hope. And how positively you think about your potential future relationship in the overall. One of the reasons I am objecting to your classification of the presence of emotionally or verbally abusive behaviors - even very inconsistently - as making a partner a 'bad' partner is that it takes away hope that this partner can change his or her habits to eliminate that behavior. Note that I don't think a partner who is being verybally attacked should put up with the behavior forever, or even fo a long time. It makes sense to assess whether or not there is any chance of change.
There are some couples where what you say - this is broken and it will stay broken - is absolutely true. But I don't believe you can state that it is always true.
How Do You Know?
Submitted by kellyj on
I agree...there is line but how can you be sure. I have struggled with answering this one myself. I really can empathize with OW from own experience with someone who I feel had crossed that line. Not to way lay with discussion with a lot of diagnosis here....I am familiar with at least one case that I have to say that there never was any hope or chance for things to change EVER...... which was my own father in this case. I think this becomes more of a moral or ethical dilemma if you are with someone who is helplessly out of control of their anger in such a way that they have come to learn that this is their power over other people. This is less a matter that of an "anger management" issue or never learning to control their anger.....but their character is so flawed in such a way that they see their anger as perfectly justifiable in any case they feel someone is trying to take their power or control away from them or even simply....a situation that they personally don't like or are not comfortable with or even...... just inconvenienced .
Their power....IS IN their anger itself. In other words... it's not just a chronic over reaction to things and an inability to maintain composure that might be seen as a hurtful exchange or disagreement between two people that might cause you to become upset or angry in a more commonly understood way. Even within your own example between your husband and yourself... if both of you in your case.... might have done this at different times independent of the other one.... "acting out" or "over reacting "( even losing your temper completely)...this might be viewed as inappropriate, disproportionate and even mean or vindictive by normal standard. It certainly is "abusive" behavior using how most people might assess this on a one time, or in the moment loss of composure or control of your emotions.
But using this in comparison...it's not used as a weapon or tool to gain control over another person or as a means to punish that for crossing your boundaries or to get what they want from you. A person such as my father could never relinquish that much loss of power or control if he were to lose this inherent strategy to gain control of others or any situation that might possible arise which would mean he would have been left completely defenseless and vulnerable to having to expose his feelings and his true emotions about anything....person, place, animal or vegetable. A person like this in my opinion....is missing the fundamental skills you need to coexist with another human being period. This is not a case of having poor skills in managing emotions or controlling anger or even not knowing the difference....this is a fundamental flaw in this kind of persons thinking in that they are in the purest form..... "entitled" and "self righteous" to the point....that the ends ALWAYS justify the means and there is not arguing this with them ever. You might as well be arguing with them about removing both of their legs from them in this case...... taking their legs or even taking the air they need air to breath from them would get the same reaction from them if that were the case.. What is actually happening with a person like this is not talking about anything that drastic....it might be the same if you just disagreed with them with them about what TV channel you want to watch if it's different than the one they want to watch. The net results would be the same and they use that to simply over power anyone who stand in the way of what they want. It's tyrannical for lack of a better word....not from not understanding or not knowing the difference or an inability to control it.
Here's an example of what I am trying to describe as a means to tell the difference....
My father, mother and I went with my father to go shop for a new car. My father was a regional VP for a large corporation and climbed up the corporate ladder starting as a salesman and then managing sale people, and then later managing the managers of salespeople. If you wanted to know anything about sales or how to sell anything.....my father new everything you could possibly know and then some. He new every trick in the book and actually could have written the book if there was such a thing.
So here were are inside the show room and browsing around the floor models and within a few minutes of this....a sale mans comes over and starts doing his job...the one that my father was more familiar with and probably knew more about than this gentleman had ever have dreamed possible. In other words....he knew exactly what was happening and could have predicted the next word that this gentleman was going to say. When the sale man first opened with his initial "opener"...my father never even looked at this guy but said to him without hesitation....." I'm just looking." That was the entirety of my father's response. And as any salesperson will do next after hearing the most common answer most everyone will make whether they are going to buy a car or not....he responded to my father with any one of a number of pretty predictable come back lines that you might think of. My father wheeled around now staring directly at this guy and started screaming at him at the top of his lungs..." can I just look at your cars sir.....is that all right with you????? or do I have to sit listen to you at the same time!!!!! I'll take my business else where If I have to!!" He did this so loudly that it was reverberating inside the entire glassed in show room to the point.....that the managers and sales people...including the customers sitting at the desks making deals all stopped or came out from the back room to see what the problem was? Literally a dozen or more people stopped what ever they were doing and all were looking at us standing there while the salesperson sat there looking at my father frozen with this petrified look on his face. The manager had to come over and ask if there was a problem which my father only said to him "no....as long as I can look at your cars and not have a sales person try to sell me one." He did this in such a way that even the manager at that point was afraid to say anything and just back away with his hand up and just left us standing there....my mother and I were red faced with embarrassment and the rest of the people slowly turned away and went about their business. Not until they did that...did my father not keep staring at everyone in the room and went back to looking at cars. Not only was my father not embarrassed....he appeared ( as in 1000's of situations like this very one) to be completely non fluxed or unaffected by this event and went on about his business. My mother in this case was so embarrassed that she pleaded with my father to leave and my father started in with her until she immediately back down and left him alone. Normally....my mother knew better too but in this case....it was so uncomfortable and embarrassing to be associated with my father that we just had to go into a corner to get away from the eye of everyone who just witnessed this display. What I am saying here.....that this was the status quo for my father everywhere he went no matter who you were....friend, family or foe. If you look at this situation....it is exactly what I am trying to say as the distinction.....
pure entitlement
not communicating his needs in any way or what he expected by only saying "I'm just looking." What does mean anyway..."I'm just looking." Clearly....he had eyes and was "just looking" and he was just looking at the moment at a car that was for sale. Duh. That statement didn't say anything but it was a commonly used but it is not saying what you are thinking, feeling, what's on your mind, what your intentions are......none of it. It says very little and not very well either.
unreasonable expectations...to the extreme. And again....he knew better since he did this very thing for a living. It just wasn't what he wanted...that is...having a lowly salesperson talk down to him or like someone who might want to take advantage of him since he was without the same built in respect that he had when he was the one in charge. In this case....he took charge in no uncertain terms by taking away any power that any other human being might have over him...man, woman or child who might have had the misfortune of standing in the wrong place at the wrong time and having their senses put in a state of shock by his threatening attack on the entire show room.
self righteousness in the extreme.... in no way did he see anything wrong or any reason why he should not have acted in such a way or even begin to entertain the possibility of anything wrong or wrong doing on his part what so ever. End of discussion. You want discuss that part? You would only get more of the same which would ramp up incrementally over your reaction every step of the way. In the end.....you will always lose. That was his goal.
no allowing of anyone to dissent or contest his decision or what he wanted.....(and not allowing them to even have the chance to even if they wanted to)
total dominance and control even when it was not appropriate and only appropriate based on him, what he wanted in that moment, and at the expense of everyone else (the sales person was simply doing what they paid him to do and my father clearly knew that and knew the difference and where he was) In these scenarios....there is no compromise, no dissent and no choice on any one else part. 100% one sided and without concern for anyone else !00% or the time. My emotional needs trump "everyone...all of the time"
This...never changed....never was different and it was never allowed to be discussed ever. If you tried....it was a fight that you always lose every time.
This in my humble opinion is the definition of abuse or an abusive person. It's one thing to fight and argue with anger and show displays of it on occasion or even lose control of your emotions like anger.....It's an entirely and completely different thing to do this every waking minute of your life with everyone...everywhere you go to be used as a weapon or tool to gain power and exert control over another human being(s).
This is where I know to draw the line and know that it will never change. I can tell now when I see someone like this because I became so familiar with it growing up. If there is a line to draw with no hope in sight of a person like this ever changing.....this would be it right here. That's how I know at least.
Melissa....you can correct me if I am wrong here.....but this is NOT a component of ADHD by itself . I know a half a dozen people with ADHD including myself....and none of them behave even remotely close to what I just described. That includes me too. Not even in the same universe as this.
If this is who OW is married too......she has my deepest sympathy and I would only hope that she can save herself and remove herself as soon as physically possible from such an abusive tyrant like my father if that is the case. And only to reiterate....this doesn't sound at all like ADHD or what I know of it personally. My father definitely...did not have ADHD. I suspect I got it from my mother at this point in time and I'm more than a little sure of that even without the ability to actually get a true diagnosis.
J
Anger, Rage and Emotional Lability and Abuse
Submitted by kellyj on
I think this is a very important thing to understand here. If you don't understand the differences.....or you don't have different levels of displaying anger yourself....I think this could very confusing. This has been a personal journey of mine....to find out what these and where and how they exist inside me. In respect to everyone who has commented in this thread....there are valid points being made on all sides her including my own. In my case.....I have been both on the receiving and giving end of this but there was a time when I finally needed to have "real" answers to these questions myself personally if I was ever going to correct any errors in my own thinking....and consequently....making any "permanent" changes or improvements within my self for all obvious reasons. That is the point that is being made here is it not? Walking on egg shells comes from being afraid of the "next time".
If there is no "next time" or these things don't change to something else to replace them as Melissa was saying in her own case (and mine too in my own)...then the problem might be considered "resolved" or "unresolved" to an acceptable level. In respect to this discussion.....I am both torn and frustrated by some of things said here which only indicates one thing for me at this point.....there is still overlap, confusion,assumption, inference taking place that is muddying the water due to what I believe is a fair bit of anecdotal transference happening that really does not apply from one person or couples situation to another and yet it appears to be a problem in general when talking anonymously on the internet and not having all the facts straight or enough information in a manner to be even talking about the same thing together about each persons individual situation.
Before I say anything else....I want to establish one thing here for myself so I can put myself into one category or another. This...you will just have to take my word on and trust that I'm not BS'ing, trying to paint myself favorably or trying to defend myself. I'm granting myself the ability to see myself well and to be able to watch myself with a critical and objective eye. My ability to do this and the skills I have learned in this one area has proven to be vital to my ability to see this in other people as well. This is what I know so far and can speak with some surety that some of these things I am "sure of" and less to do with any speculating and rationalizing on my part.
To start ....what Melissa was saying in her own situation with her husband is mirroring my experience almost exactly with my wife and I. I see mys situation and the steps that we have taken in the process of figuring this all out to be almost identical up to the more specifics that are individual to us. There was a time however...not that long ago where I was really questioning staying or leaving my wife for a few very specific reasons. Actually the only reasons I have and where I won't make too many concessions anymore. The abuse. In this case first....I want to define what abuse is for me personally which is part of my example of our family going car shopping together. Within that scenario....comes the worst thing you could possibly do to me as far as being able to control or resist the urge to fight back with disproportionate anger in retaliation to someone including my wife.
By default or by nature....I try to avoid conflict. Look at the scenario with my father and you will understand why. It's not that hard to figure out. Even when I am not angry and someone else is......by default.....I don't express mine even when I experiencing it with someone while they are standing in front of me. Again...looking at threat same situation again with my father and mother......you can easily see why neither one of us (my mother and I ) did well in expressing our dissatisfaction or anger about things well with other people. The truth is....I don't live in the past....but the past is where the answers are for me and I must go there to find them as needed. I no longer harbor anger about any of my past anymore to the point....that I don't do that with my wife either. Between the two of us it appears...this is a skill that I do have that my wife does not. What this skill does afford me is to let go and not hold grudges. This is a skill that I have had for a very long time anyway. Not holding grudges is what I am calling...not letting go, not getting over it, and not processing things that happened to you in the past without bringing up old unresolved feelings. I see this as one of my more outstanding qualities and I do this fairly easily.
But...when I begin to even whiff.....instability in another person emotionally....it sets me on guard even if I am completely stable. Again...going back to what I said....this shouldn't be that difficult to imagine I think? This does have to do with my PTSD from my abuse as a child but it no longer has any control over me. That is an important distinction to make here. Having said that.....I still have my triggers and I am still sensitive to them but they don't make me change my behavior under normal circumstances. In the case with my wife.....it took some pretty specific things to cause me to tall off the wagon and react with her with anything that resembled my past in any way. This never happens to me in other words. No one did this before even in my previous marriage with my ex wife. We had fights on occasion.....and even under a couple of rare (and alcohol induced moments)...when I suspected without confirmation that my ex was cheating on me which I feel at this point that she was but I just didn't catch her......I had good reason for being upset. My ex refused to have sex with me for over a year...she wasn't coming home at night and was spending lots of time with "friends". She wasn't being truthful about things and she wasn't communicating at all with me. I was seeing large charges on our credit card with a couple made out of town which she said was her mother and herself. Do you see the picture here? You might say it was because of me and my ADHD that she had to go out and find someone else....but this is where I'm going with this. At the time.....before this....I wasn't losing my temper or being chronically angry at all. This was not the norm to say....in 12 years together...this only happened once. Do you think I had good reason to suspect that this is what was happening? I do. I believed I was being deceived, lied to and made a fool of in front of everyone who knew my wife including her own mother. At this point there is no sense in proving this but.....I believe from everything that my T was trying to tell me at the time....this is exactly what was happening and why. But that was my ex wife we are talking about now. I don't harbor any anger or ill will towards her either. We still talk on occasion (with not interest on my part what so ever to return to her even if she wanted to.....no way) and we don't even have kids as a reason to have to talk with each other either. I see her the same as I was...making bad choices and proceeding accordingly.
This is not an excuse for any inappropriate anger on my part....but it's merely stating what my triggers are and why they are so important for my wife to understand.
So what is it that my wife does that is completely unacceptable? The same thing my father did with the salesperson in the show room that day in my example. To a T. Is she an out of control malignant Narcissist? At first....I had my doubts. All I new for sure is that she did the same thing that I just described but it was for a very different reason even if it looked and felt exactly the same. For her....it was from a lack of skills in expressing her anger as Melissa mentioned. She learned a different set of skills than I did in dealing with her mom who actually does share the same dysfunction my own father had. She learned very bad ways of expressing her anger. For me.....I learned not to at all.... I had to bottle them up out of self preservation and never got the chance to express my anger or learn any skills in doing it period. Bad skills and no skills. That was my wife and myself when I was confronted again after 50 years in life with someone who shared the same method of expressing anger as my father did. Poorly.
This...in the essence of what I am saying...is and was the problem that was specific to my wife and I. I cannot remember (even once as child or later as an adult)...having someone wake me up out a deep sleep and start tearing into. Literally opening my eyes and seeing and angry person going on a tirade with me. If you go back to the days with my father.....this appear to me as a completely out or control unstable person no matter what their reasoning was for being that way even if it was my fault. Before my brain is even turned on yet....my emotions are reacting to this. My thought process hasn't even come on line yet to think clearly at all and now I am suddenly and frightenly reacting to the situation as best I can. This is where the emotional lability comes into play. Without understanding this concept but actually knowing about it for my entire life......when put into a situation where I am without the ability to manage my emotions well.....or as well as others...the emotional lability is the seemingly disproportionate over reaction to a given stimulus that comes out greater than the feelings or emotions would warrant otherwise.
So how does this all work? Here's the break down. On my wife end. She does not express her anger well. That's a fact. She also feels rather entitled herself to express this inability of hers at will whenever she wants. This is also a fact. She is volatile and sharp and quick with her anger and it is her least desirable quality. She has had countless situations in her past not just with me that she will admit to that people in general do not take kindly to this feature of hers. That's also a fact.
For me.....this is gross understatement of fact for ME personally. Like I said. It hits a nerve center in my that runs so deep....I have difficulty managing someone like this and myself at the same time. I have very few triggers and my wife has many. This is also a fact that we both agree on. But.....there is a big difference between the two of us. My triggers may be fewer....but they are extremely important to me that they not be dismissed or ignored. These are hard boundary lines that I cannot have people disrespect because I already know going in....how difficult it is staying on this side of the line in those movements. No matter how many times I screamed at my wife to stop waking me up out of a deep sleep and tear into me....she wouldn't listen. She did it anyway repeatedly. And I in turn....I had a panic attack each time she did because she didn't feel that it should be that important or didn't understand why it was so important. She took that info and my pleading with her and threw it out the window but.....she blamed me for over reacting and losing my temper each time she did this.
I can't undo my past but I'm not hanging on to it either and letting it go. Having said that.....I cannot quickly and simply un-condition the Pavlovian panic reaction that came from my experience with my father. In other words....the worst thing you could do to me was what my father did back then. Not that it hurts my feelings or that I can't get over it...or even that I hang onto it after the fact. But in the moment when it happens and I wake up out of deep sleep and find myself confronted with a raging emotional terrorists standing in front of me.....my ability to manage my anger reaction and the resulting rage and terror I feel in that very instant is not negotiable in how I feel. How I feel in those moments is how I feel from it....and the emotional liability is the thing that allows it to go further and bigger than it would normally do otherwise. This is a fact as well. Nothing I can do about that in the moment. Over time....I have learned to manage it better with very good results but just not in those extreme cases.
So when you tell someone this and explain it all too them....and they keep doing that anyway with the exact same results for them each time....and then they accuse you of losing your temper and having anger issues and yet.....not admitting, denying or even willing to examine or talk about it......no discussion allowed in other words....
This is my worst night mare. I repeat....my worst nightmare...literally. My lack of experience in expressing my emotions well is only countered by someone who expresses them in way that they are extremely experienced in doing. I'm out matched, over powered and helpless to do anything more about it. But my panic, fear and anxiety in those moments is not negotiable. All that is left for me was to find a way not to react and still feel the same panic inside each time it happens.
This is what I did.....successfully. On my own without anyones help aside from years of therapy. But even years of therapy cannot change the visceral panic reaction I feel and there is very little I can do about that. The burden in this case....was all on me. And....I did it without any help from my wife. She did nothing on here end to help me or make this any easier on me. I think in my past.....I might not have been able to do it.
So now.....this stopped completely on my end. There should be no egg shells for her to walk on right? No evidence of any of this happening any time recently. This should have solved the problem. Nope. Not on my wife end. Even after everything I just said and only after this happening with her ( full blown rage) twice....she see's nothing really wrong with what she did and does not understand that what she did....was so utterly reprehensible to me and cause me so much anxiety and fear (me walking on egg shells) that do this day....I still have to be vigilant with her because I never know when she will go off again. And I still have to deal with this part in her...but.....I'm also doing that too. I don't hold it against her emotionally is what I am saying. I realize full well that her totally reprehensible behavior is the same thing for me but in reverse. Violating others boundaries IS my wife's issue much more than mine unless you count leaving clothes on the floor or things of that nature in the same category and controlling anger and having a panic attack? I don't but....that's irrelevant and to the point I'm making... I have to let that go too which at this point....i can do it in a heart beat and not have it affect me the same any more.
In respect to everyone here and the comments that have been made......boundaries are not negotiable whether you agree with them or not. Just because doing something you do does not cause you any problems....doesn't mean you aren't the cause of doing the very same thing to another person by intention or not just because you don't agree with it. This is a universal statement that works for everyone. If you are not respecting another persons boundaries once they have established those to you in no uncertain terms. If they react to this violation and you know that they've told you.....what can you say to this?
Is it their overreaction the problem or is it you? In light of this discussion and some of the things that have been said here.....I still get the impression that there is some fault still being assigned to only the person who reacts not the other way around. I also get in context (that I get clearly)....that all of us are only hearing one side of the story if your spouse is not adding in the other side of the situations you read on this forum. Without that input from the source in that persons own words....it makes it difficulty to determine any blame or fault on either side if that is the case.
And for the record. Everything that Melissa said is applying and holding true for my wife and I almost to the letter. This is what we are experiencing and discovering is really the truth on both sides. Aside from being with a malignant Narcissist ( the only accepting to the rule I can think of)....there is always two sides to every story and there has to be a reason to explain most things that happen with two people in an understandable and reasonable way. If these stories that we read on this forum start sounding too one sided as I read them....I always have to consider my wife and I and our experience to know that something is not always been said or stated on the opposing side of any issue you could name. Lack of knowledge and misinterpretation I suspect is the ultimate cause here in what I see many times. From an objective critical standpoint....there must be more to it if it doesn't appear to make sense?
The inability to let go of past hurts and move forward without letting that effect you is what I have be doing for quite some time now. I have to practice that everyday to get better at doing it but you aren't telling me anything that I don't know or haven't done myself either. Preaching to the choir as they say:)
J
Good points...
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
It's hard to verbalize where one draws the line.
It's like the age-old argument of: What are "fine art portraits of nudes" and what is "porn." Well, we kind of know the difference when we see it, but it can be hard to put a finite definition into words.
JJ gave a good example of a person (his father) being unjustifiably mean/abusive to another decent person (salesperson) who is just doing their job in an appropriate way.
The best among us will "express annoyance" when another person "deserves it." lol Maybe that is what Melissa is concerned about. I don't know what her examples would be, but if they're ones that many might give when being constantly frustrated with an ADHD spouse, it may or may not cross the line of abuse.
If an ADHD husband frequently loses his job because of inappropriate behavior at work (arriving late, goofing off, missing important deadlines, inferior work), then the affected wife is likely going to say some things that may not sound too nice: "This is your fault. You need to be a better employee. I can't and won't support you. You need to grow up and stop acting like a child. (blah blah blah)".
If an ADHD wife frequently overdraws the bank account or runs up credit cards, and the couple's credit score is taking a beating and the household can't keep up with current bills, then likely the husband is going to say some things that don't sound very nice: "stop thinking about yourself. You're selfish and you're acting like a spoiled brat buying all those clothes and shoes. blah blah blah".
I think that irrational anger is abusive. I think that excessive anger is abusive. I think that "lashing out" for many, many minutes is abusive.
For a very short time, I had a boss that was abusive. I strongly believe that he hated women. Our group consisted of 15 men and 2 women (one was me). The other woman was a verry fine worker, but the boss was just unbelievably mean to her. I was new with the company, so he wasn't (yet) mean to me. Some of the male employees were lazy (surfed the net on company time), yet they didn't get any wrath. I am a natural sales person, so I did very well right away.
After about 14 weeks, my "honeymoon" period was over, but I didn't yet know that. I went to his office to discuss an issue that HE told us to talk to him about. The issue was "stealing commissions." One of the male employees had a horrible reputation of "stealing sales/commissions." So, when it happened to me, I brought it to the boss' attention. OMG!!! He shut his office door and began yelling at me. His words were completely irrational...and he would NOT stop. He just kept going on and on..
He told me that a couple of the male employees had "google earthed" my home and it upset them that I obviously didn't need to work. huh? He's yelling at me for this??? Strange that he didn't reprimand them for their inappropriate actions. No, I was being attacked because they realized that my H made a lot more money than they all did, including my boss.
This boss literally yelled at me for at least 30 minutes straight. I should have walked out, but I was already crying and I didn't want others seeing me like that. My office wasn't close to the boss' office, so I would have had to walk quite a distance, crying, to get to my desk and purse and leave. So, I stupidly stayed and put up with that abuse.
I then told him that it was obvious that he didn't like women and he looked absolutely dumb-struck and asked what I meant. Suddenly, he stopped yelling. The tables were turned. I gave him two very distinct examples where he had very wrongly treated that other female employee. Since I didn't "need" the job, I told him I was giving my 2 weeks notice. That shocked him. He immediately said, "oh don't quit. I want at least 10 more employees like you." (huh? lol Obviously he's mentally unstable)
There's a difference between properly "chewing out" a spouse or employee and abusive irrational behavior.
JJ gets it.
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
JJ gets it. His post is right on.
However, I take exception to the mention that his dad didn't have ADHD. I don't know either way. He may have had it but it manifested in ways that are very different than JJ.
I strongly believe that ADHD is often just a "more minor issue" when paired with a more serious mental illness. As JJ detailed, it appears that his dad had a much more serious mental illness. Narcissist? maybe.
I think it's almost impossible to have depression and anxiety and not have "some" ADHD symptoms.
I agree that ADHD is not the reason for the more outrageous behaviors...emotional, physical, verbal, financial abuse.
You got it. Seeing the hills from the trees.
Submitted by ChrisChris on
"We don't excuse physically abusive parents just because "she only beats her children twice a year."
YES! Perfect example.
Amen to everything you said.
Nice point; but, many road blocks to see around....
Submitted by c ur self on
(It is good to remember that the behaviors of today are not, necessarily, indications of innate personality traits. Most often a partner is walking on eggshells because the other partner is not at their best...or even 'at their good enough.' That does not mean that that person isn't a good person - or even, over the longer-term, a good partner. It does mean that something in the relationship needs to change in order for that relationship to become healthy again for both partners.)
Excellent Point; My wife and I know one thing about each other, we both want to love each other and experience this healthy relationship you speak of. But, I think the reason we fail (my wife and I) in our attempt to maintain (or restore at times) an environment that is healthy is our view of life, and what is Good for us...We have very little commonality to begin with. If a person's out look on life leans toward rule keeping and being responsible vs a person who's life is geared around spontaneity and frivolity it creates such a small landing area for comfort and compatibility (get off the egg shells).
I'm finding out for me when I go against my first instincts of reason, some times I can find a more common ground with her. It is difficult for me, because I've already in my mind classified the ground she is standing on as unsure, and unstable....So for me it's like my first trip up the monkey bars every time I try to reach out...
In the end it really didn't matter if I was right or not, because I can be right all I want, but that in itself will never produce the unity we both need and desire to experience peace in the relationship.
C
"It Doesn't Matter If You Have the Right of Way.....
Submitted by kellyj on
if you're dead." This is actually a quote that my father made to me when a woman ran a red light and T-boned me while I was going through an intersection with the green light in my favor. The woman admitted she got distracted as she told me in the moment...."I'm so sorry.....Nordstrom was having a big sale and I was in a hurry to get there and wasn't paying attention." Even better to make a point here.....
As you can see....from that comment (which I think was a beautifully crafted one) that my father made to me after the fact when I was expressing to him that it wasn't my fault since it was his car that I was driving when the accident was happening. I had prepared myself for the worst when I had to come to my parents to tell them that their car had just been crunched and I had my ducks all in a row and was ready for any defense contingencies that I was expecting (projecting) in this exchange that I was dreading the prospects of. It wasn't my fault of course in this clear cut situation....but all I could think of at the moment was how angry my father was going to be with me and was preparing for the worst.
In one of his better moments....my father also took me by surprise when he made the comment he made to me. He was actually less concerned for the car than he was for my safety after all. I can extrapolate a little further here for you in what I take from that situation and the comment that he made.
My father.....was without a doubt in my mind now and with some help from my T in a post mortem diagnosis....was most definitely a malignant Narcissist. But even within that diagnosis.....it did not make him a bad person. He was still a decent moral man in the sense that his values and morals were in the right place. What was not in the right place was his ability to feel "real" or "deep" emotions for other people or things and was primarily a "logic only" based creature in how he saw the world because of it. At the same time....he was not immoral or completely without a conscience in respect that he had a set list of rules in his head to guide him in his decision making process. That rule book was based on the same rules most other people would agree too as far as laws and regulations goes. He replaced emotions with a sense of "duty" to himself and others as a means to use to guide him. This sense of "duty" was extremely strong within my father and in the sense of logic and fairness in the realm of making "deals" and "negotiations" with others....he was not a "con-man" in other words. His sense of right and wrong was pretty clearly defined by duty, honor and self respect. When it came to situations that involved logistics and reason....he could be very reasonable as long as emotions were not involved.
In respect to the car accident....his statement was said in that moment in a way that clearly made sense to me and was one that was said maybe....not necessarily from the heart....but from the mind of someone who's heart might have been in the right place more often if he only had the ability to use it more often. Despite the appearance of concern from his statement.....I still think that a part of him was more concerned about any problems that these situations might cause him in the future based on his perception that (my undiagnosed ADHD) in my "inability" as he saw it....to be able to pay attention, was actually going to get me killed some day.
In the reality of this situation.....it was the woman who hit me that admitted that being distracted and not paying attention was what she honestly admitted as her only excuse for hitting me. Within that comment that my father made.....the assumption all things considered...was based on his false belief of me and one that he could not explain otherwise. Within the comment and projection that he was making.....was an accusation of some wrong doing on my part even if it wasn't technically my fault. Still.....there was still some truth behind it in respect to the fact that traffic lights do not prevent cars from running red lights and killing you if they do. The traffic lights themselves to do not offer you any protection and you have to actually "look" to see if someone is going to hit you. In that respect....this was my failure.
Assuming on my part that if the light was green.....no one "should" come through it. "Should be"...."could be"...."suppose to be". This was the error in my thinking that my father brought to my attention even though he made the comment for a completely different reason. Misinterpretation? In this case....it worked......kind of. lol
He had formed an opinion of my based only on what he saw and what he believed based on himself. This must be this and therefore it is. End of discussion. From a purely non emotional stand point.....my father had a keen ability to cut to the chase without a lot of emotions and feelings involved. In many respects....I learned this ability myself from watching and listening to him. Not a bad quality to have when needed but not always appropriate in all situations.
'It's a fool who looks for logic....in the chambers of the heart". A line taken from "O' Brother Where Art Thou" by smooth talking George Cloony's character in the movie. The point here I am trying to make that my father was not a bad or evil person and had many redeeming qualities. In respect to George Cloony's quote and my father.....I think the worst label you could justifiably slap on him despite all of this logic and reason was that he was ultimately a fool in how he treated people. What was missing might have been genuine love or the ability to empathize....but he did replace it with something else instead. Duty, honor, responsibility and reason were all features that my father also enjoyed too which can make up for a lot in comparison to a "fool and his money". In that respect....he most definitely was not.
In respect to what you said here C....".In the end it really didn't matter if I was right or not, because I can be right all I want, but that in itself will never produce the unity we both need and desire to experience peace in the relationship." The wisdom you have in seeing this yourself is the wisdom that was missing in respect to my father. His foolish pride and ego got in the way of actually seeing the wisdom in a statement like this which I agree with personally but that still didn't make him an evil bad person. Just a foolish one for missing the best parts of life and himself in service of his stubborn ego and fragile self esteem that he hid behind an outward appearance of over confidence..
In respect to the comment made here in this thread.... "We don't excuse physically abusive parents just because "she only beats her children twice a year" As a child who was beaten by my father on rare occasions....very rare and most definitely hurtful. Those moments were nothing compared to the constant barrage of constant and continuous negativity and the "shock and awe" effect that the smaller daily anger outbursts and the flack that created my PTSD. If it had only been these handful of moments that I had to deal with (the 4 or 5 real bad ones) and that was it.....without questioning this for a moment.....I would have recovered and moved on from without a hitch. It was the daily and constant attack on the senses that caused the most damage. It really was the accumulation of these smaller moments or anger and negativity that was so much more damaging to my self esteem than any one big event like this could ever have caused by itself.
In respect to children and then carrying that forward to adulthood. Adults are not victims unless they choose to be.....children do not have that choice. That's why children are the only true victims in this world outside of natural catastrophe, crime and war in my humble opinion. You can't apply this logic to yourself and your partner once you are an adult yourself. You can't blame the abuse as a child on your behaviors now no matter what reasoning you want to apply.
There's also one more quote that came to mind that I think is really poignant here............
“Never try to fool children. They expect nothing and therefore see everything.” (attributed to Harry Houdini) If I had to place myself in the past....I think this quote sums me up pretty well. This is the same part of me that still lives and exists inside me which the part that was missing within my father. For him....his inability to be spontaneous and flexible was lost when he lost the ability to be a child growing up. This was the misfortune he had from circumstance and abuse that he suffered. That's the actual tragedy that take place when subjected to that kind of abuse when you are a child. Thankfully....I managed to sneak through without losing this ability myself:)
J
Moving past the past usually takes more than our own ability...
Submitted by c ur self on
J I've noticed something about people who seem stuck in an unhealthy place, or refuses responsibility. As I have become more aware of it, I realize now how much I did it in the past and can still do it. When a person gets stuck in this mindset they can't discuss their own life without being a victim, and they are very uncomfortable talking about themselves at all. Most all their stories will relate to others. It makes it really hard to engage them on any productive level...
It's sad when pride so cripples us that we can't see our refusal (or inability) to open up keeps us from growing and finding healing for those painful truths about ourselves...Our marriage counselor us to get so frustrated, I felt sorry for him:)
But, I understand it, every human wants to feel good about themselves, but, the cost can be high at times...
When I was a kid the teacher use to make us write sentence's on the blackboard about our bad behavior. I guess she thought the repetition would eventually make us get it....Ha Ha!
Maybe if after our counselor's and therapist had a good feeling for what our problems are, he could just assign us 500 sentences before the next session. Maybe the repetition of it would push us past the denial and into the reality of how we're living and the effects it has on others. Then maybe we could accept what we need to and work to change it. Couldn't hurt....
It would take humility and a strong desire to be healed...Because who wants to write..."I'm a lazy freeloading asshole stuck in denial and blame and don't deserve the wonderful wife and children I've been blessed with"....500 times...Ouch!
I've read a few posts over the past couple of years where some individual found this site in their desperation because their abused spouse had had enough and was breaking up the gravy train party...Maybe they were ready to write:)....Hey I resemble that remark! At least one side of it....LOL..
C
The Illusion of Perfection C
Submitted by kellyj on
Yep....if I could go back an redo a few things I certainly would. But that regret is there for a reason....to teach you from your mistakes. It's pretty arrogant to have the belief that you can be perfect and simply deny anything about you that is not perfect. All that does in the long run is make you look flawed and hypocritical when you try and keep up the appearance of perfection...while knowing that this is not even possible to begin with. What's not possible is trying to wing it and pretend that you are and not have anyone else notice. You might get away with it at work or in public for a while...but not with a person that you are sharing your life with on an intimate level.
That gravy train party. lol All parties must end sometime and then it's time to go home:)
"drizzle drazzel druzzel drome....time for this one to come home! "lol A blast from the past from the cartoon Tooter Turtle which stuck in my head and I remembered to this day. "Help me Mr Wizard...help me!!!!!" Only in the fantasy of cartoons and animation I'm afraid.....no Mr Wizard is going to bail you out when the bubble bursts the party ends. LOL
Lassie was another good one. How freaking lame was Timmy? Have you ever seen a kid who could find more ways to get himself into life threatening situations than that? And then having to have his dog come bail him out every time he did? What a complete Fuck up! No wonder his parents bought him that dog! lol
And then of course there was Bud...in Flipper. I guess that was my problem growing up....I didn't have a pet Dolphin in my back yard! lol
J
Nice point J
Submitted by c ur self on
Yep, those insecurities can paint an S on our chest, and a red mask on our face....And then we just go through life praying no one strips it off and see's the little boy hiding underneath
Blessing Friend...and Merry Christmas!
Lassie
Re-Examining Our Conclusions With a Different Explanation
Submitted by kellyj on
Yes sir....those insecurities are really a problem. Not only for us individuals but for our society at large. The last thing I want to do is discuss politics and I avoid it like the plague. But there is something that I see there that is extremely valid and important to this entire discussion and relates directly in context to the very thing we are all talking about in this thread. It's very obvious but not so obvious. In what I'm trying to say is....it's really obvious to me but it appears to be for many....not so obvious. Does this sound arrogant? If anything...it' a bit cynical but not so much in a bad way either....in fact....I believe I have a very healthy cynicism many times that allows me to make good decisions and come to the right conclusions many times as long as it doesn't get mean spirited and I do something positive with my conclusions.
Let me try and put this into the right context for you so I can speak directly to where I see a problem is in our thinking. Our....in this case....is mine, yours and everyone else as I am saying it. My intention here is to shine a light on a problem and then.....show why there is no exact answer or resolution for that problem itself. That is exactly the problem with this problem. There is no easy simple answer and it can get very complicated trying to find an answer or solution if you approach this problem from the wrong direction. The wrong direction in this case....is starting with an predetermined conclusion and trying to get your answer that way. If you keep doing this....you will never get the answer you are looking for.
The answer (in this case) is the one you already have ....which is the biggest part of this problem in itself. This explanation (or answer.....use it either way.....answer or explanation used interchangeably) for the conclusion that you've made is the source and cause of the problem itself. And this explanation we have for any conclusions that we draw from to make decisions, make choices, and decide which thing is best....or right....or the one that I should choose at any given time rests solely on your ability have good information that is accurate before you can make a decision.
You have to make a decisions....there is no way around that part. How well we make them and how good we are at doing that is variable depending on a lot of things but...
These conclusions that we have already made or determined to be correct....are not always so. The conclusion itself may not be wrong at all.... but if the explanation for them is wrong....the entire conclusion becomes wrong too. These explanations that we have are made either by yourself....or by someone else and you've already accepted and made that decision yourself already unless you've just blindly followed someone else's answer and never bothered to question if it was.....right, wrong or acceptable.....or not acceptable. Without even knowing it at times.....an assumption has been made. In fact.....most of the time....it was someone else wrong assumption we are working from in our own thinking.Oh boy.......here we go! lol
When you Assume......you make an Ass (out of) U (and ) Me. I actually never like that one that much because I always felt like the ass was more on the side of the person making the assumption. It's your damn your assumption....how does that make me an Ass? Yet I digress....this has nothing to do with what I'm saying.lol
Going back to what I started out saying.....it is only obvious to me because I have chosen not to take a position (or take sides)....that all it's saying. Nothing else. But when it comes time to say.... vote for a President for example....I do have to make a choice if I want to vote in the first place but I am not invested in it. Why?
From my perspective (abstaining to partake in the two party system and having to make a choice on a party)......our system itself is neurotic at best. I can't even not make a choice without someone having to make one for me. When it comes time to vote.....I'm and "Independent". God damn it.....no I'm not!!! lol I'm just a guy who chooses to vote.....but doesn't want to choose a party yet they have to slap a name on it and make it a category just so I can simply vote in the first place..
If they actually had an equally divided third party that represented everyone in the middle calling it the "moderate party" in between conservative and liberal....I would join it in a heart beat because that is truly where I put myself in this debate between conservatives and liberals. I agree and disagree with things said on both sides.....but I am totally against the dogma and the opinions of the staunch conservatives....as well as the bleeding heart liberals with adamant disdain!!!! I won't belong to either one because the ideals on either side are so completely unreasonable and irrational and I want nothing to do with either side if that is my only choice.
Go play ball (children).... in someone else's back yard just not mine..... Putewy!!!!
Is it a bad system? No....it's good system but the dynamic it can create is bad....but only if the people inside of it cannot see their way out of it and join the real world once the system itself has served it's purpose....that is....to make the choice and the decision in the first place. In what I am saying......I use the system myself to do this.....but I want no part of being inside of it because it does not represent how I feel or what I believe in.
More explanation is needed here before I can make my point and this has to do with what I believe (firmly) that is true. This now comes down to what I believe is true and how I arrive at a conclusion and make a choice. This is just me now....and my personal thoughts on this subject and what I truly believe. I already know that others don't feel this way so there is no point in arguing this with them or trying to convince anyone that I am right....but it still appears obvious to me in what I am saying.
I believe that most everything that politicians say about themselves during election time is a total lie and fabrication. I trust about 10% of what I am hearing to be true. Why? Because they all lie or more accurately....the party lies for them. The candidates are just people and there job is politics. But to get that job....they have to get elected. The election process is built on a complete fabrication of facts, unreal expectations and complete and utter none sense that is fictional at best.
How can I say that? From the non fiction that is the past.....the things I already know are true. That's what non fiction is.....reporting and making a story about the past. Fiction....is a fabrication of the past, present or future and the story teller gets to assemble all the pieces within the story any way they like with no regard to anything that is real, true or accurate. That's how I know. For example.....
Recently....it just came to light that Warren G Harding had a love child just before he was elected with a mistress he had during his election to be President. Over 100 years later....we find out the truth. The illusion of perfection is now....after the fact.....been exposed. Was the illusion a lie? Of course it was.....absolutely it was without question. Now we know this to be true.
What conclusion can be made now from this fact? We were lied to of course and there was a cover up. This love child was denied in it's very existences and was never even acknowledged as even being real let alone that she was in every way you could possibly see this as Harding's real and factual daughter....one who lived a life of secrecy and shame. But what were they covering up and why did they do that? To keep this fabricated fictional story protected and alive and well. The intention in doing this was to keep this idealistic image of this "man".....who had a mistress who he had sex with from being found out about.
Unfortunately....the "man" was also running for President and in order to get elected........he had to lie. Why? Because no one would vote for a womanizing fornicator that's why? Was he a womanizing fornicator? Who knows? But from the sound of it however....he did have sex with this one time short lived affair inside the closet of the oval office in the White house as this story unfolded. Put this differently from the sound of it....he had a quickie with this woman for all intensive purposes with someone who was willing and he did it inside a closet so no one would see them. Not my idea of good sex per se but.....I'm not him. But by the standards being used here....I am (or have been)....a fornicator myself. Speaking from one fornicator to another.....I would have probably advised old Warren....to keep little Warren in his pants and think about what the consequences might be which in this case.....he clearly made his choice and the end results that happened after that.
So going back only 100 years and then looking at the current status of affairs.....we now look at the consecutive Presidents that we know of in our own lives (if your old enough) and even going back a little further.
Roosevelt lied through his teeth and told the country he was never going to war while he was being elected..... while at the same time he was making secret deals with Churchill to join them in the fight against Hitler at the same time. But that lie turned out Okay since it had a happy ending in that we won the war. How do you think we would see him if we lost? Not so good I think?
Kennedy was a major player and fornicator. The amount of deception to cover just this one aspect about Kennedy is staggering. That's the end of that story:)
Johnson was not elected so he didn't have to lie in the first place. He got elected based on what he said about being a Vice President which is focused more on selling Kennedy than himself. He skated in other words.
Nixon was a crook even though he lied and denied that he was. He also lied about not bombing Cambodia. I think the people in Cambodia might have had a different opinion about this if they had been asked? lol
Ford was in the same shoes as Johnson so he got a pass here as well.
Carter it appears....was as close to the ideal as you might want but he also was not a very effective President. Is there a correlation here? Who knows? I'm not speculating?
Reagan had Alzheimer disease. What I know of Alzeimer disease I learned from my own mother who had it. By the time you begin to notice any symptoms....that person has already begun to deteriorate for a quite some time before that depending on how fast it progress's. I know that Reagan was falling asleep at summit meetings at the end of his final term and was not saying a lot during that time. Scary!
Daddy Bush appears to have had his share of withholding the truth and lying too. The fact that Kuwait owned a large fraction of the worlds oil supply didn't have anything to do with his decision I'm sure. Plus the fact that Kuwait sits squarely at the end of the Persian gulf blocking Irag's access to sea ports and shipping and that would have been a problem if Saddam Hussein had control over it and the oil that they had. But that's not why he said we had to go there. What he said was that Americans are the protectors of freedom and Saddam Hussein was taking Kuwaitis freedom from them. Using that criteria.....I'm just not buying it. If that were the case....there are of other little countries out there that the same thing is/was happening to that we don't seem to have cared about their freedom as much as the people in Kuwait. This seems a bit hypocritical if you ask me? How do those Kuwaitis rate after all? ($$$$$$$$$$$$)
Clinton was a horn-dog....end of story. He tried to lie and deny it was his biggest and only mistake when he got caught. He had simply admitted the truth (which was fairly obvious)....the rest of the world didn't seem to care that much one way or the other. It certainly didn't lose him any points in international affairs is what I am saying whether (you as in us)...liked it or not.
George W did Cocaine and was a party animal when he was in college. He had to tell the truth there because it was. No getting around that but he also dismissed that rather quickly. Thanks to Clinton lying and saying he didn't inhale......he got pass on that one for telling the truth plus...he was born again so that made everything Okay....right? At least it got him elected and that was the end result he wanted for saying that. I believe...a fair amount of BS and holes in that story as well.....the nickname "Boy President" seemed to fit pretty well indeed. He also did a repeat performance of his father by saying the Irag's now needed to be free like we are here in America. Okay....do we have to go through this one again? Your dad already used that one....you'd think you might try and be more creative when you lie if you want other people to believe you! lol
Obama came right out at this point and said he did drugs when he was younger period. We haven't had a chance to actually see all the ways he's actually lied yet until he leaves office but I am sure it will all come out after the fact and he is not longer President. Am I being cynical or realistic based on the past and what we know?
All of this I'm saying....is part of what we are talking about in this thread. Denial, cover ups, fabricating the truth vs factual events and the reasons why this all happens and the reasons behind it. All of this leads us to one thing. The truth.
The conclusion that we have come to understand and know that are true......require a different explanation if we are going to see the truth in every case you can think of. The explanations that are detailing the facts and then fitting them into our conclusions are the very thing that need to be changed in every case. If you keep believing the explanations to the conclusions and they are wrong......we will be wrong within the assumptions that these incorrect explanations lead us to in our decisions that we make.
And that is why I don't join a political party. I don't trust the information that I'm hearing and know already that much of it cannot be true. People in general cannot live up to the expectations of this ideal that was fabricated around getting elected to be President. The best I can hope for personally....is that the lies that I know that are being told me....will ultimately yield the results that I want. At that point....it's a crap shoot. I'm just rolling the dice anyway and choosing between two pair of dice and hoping I get lucky. That's about it. I don't waste any more time thinking about rolling the dice and hoping I get lucky than I do hoping I win the lottery even though......I've gotten better at reading in between the lines and expecting the lies and making my determination based on the them rather than believing they are true just because they say that they are. In my mind....not so much! lol
But the last thing I want to do is join in to this madness. It only hurts my head and makes me angry. Why on earth would I want to do that!! lol
J
Yep!
Submitted by c ur self on
You said a lot...LOL...I will try to respond to a few things you said...When it comes to what you said about assumptions some of us who like to talk a lot would have to stay silent a good bit of the time (not a bad thing) if all we could do is spout facts...Because like we've already uncovered about the human condition; we are all limited and messed up to some degree. So I say, keep the assumptions coming, but, lets call them what they are:)...Also the older I get the more I have come to realize that every individual is effected by things that gives them a truth that I don't have and vice versa...An example: the effects of chemicals on the body.
I have nothing to add to your example about politics other than to say you covered it well...And I feel very much like you except I would not join the middle or in between party either.
I thought you brought up a wonderful point about predetermined conclusions, and sharing what you read or hear as facts...I don't think it's all bad when we share something we heard or read, but again, we need to qualify it as such and if it has produced, or is producing good things in your own life then share that also. I think it's the desire to help others that sponsors that kind of behavior in us...But, your point is well taken on this end...
I once said the 2nd greatest gift a person can obtain, is self-awareness...Life in Christ being number #1 for me....I still believe this very strongly. But in saying this I will also add I personally don't think to many people have total self-awareness or even want it....I think it's so crushing to the ego and psyche most avoid the pain of it... It goes strait against our nature to want to feel good about ourselves....
But in my opinion and experience it one of life's greatest pearls and something to seek hard after...On a scale from 1-10 I don't know where I'm at, but, I can tell you this for certain (best journey I've ever been on, and the most painful) I'm way farther along now than I was a few years ago. But I also feel I've got plenty of room between me and 10...
C
I Think You Are Seeing the Light C
Submitted by kellyj on
What you said here C........On a scale from 1-10 I don't know where I'm at, but, I can tell you this for certain (best journey I've ever been on, and the most painful) I'm way farther along now than I was a few years ago. But I also feel I've got plenty of room between me and 10...
and more specifically ....best journey I've been on, and the most painful.
What you just said is magic!
"If you believe that you can't do something....then you will never be able to do that thing no matter how many times you try.
If you believe that this pain is too great...you will never be able to endure any more pain than that.
If you believe that you can't take another day of pain.....then you will never be able to endure one more day and you will suffer from that day on moving forward.
If you decide that you've had enough....then that will be all you can take and you will quit each time you reach that point again and never go any further past that point.
If you quit before you reach your goal because the pain was too great.....you will fail to ever reach your goal.
Life without pain....is living without life."
"The best things in life come at a cost. If you never pay that price...you will never know just how good life can be. If you see the cost being too high or expect it for free...you will never know the experience I am talking about because you will always quit before you get there."
"It's easy to get things in life that are quick and easy and without any pain but those things are superficial and fade away quickly. The strength, resilience and endurance you get from the pain itself, will keep you going longer and farther than you ever imagined possible but you first must feel the pain and live with the burn that you experience from it before you will ever realize any of this is true. The more you can endure.....the more things in life will come to you from it."
"Believe in yourself and in your dream....though, impossible things may seem some days....somehow you will get through them if you keep your dream alive and your goal in view. Mountains will fall and seas divide before the one who is in their stride who chooses the hard road by day sweeping obstacle aside. Believe in yourself and in your plan....say Not, that I Cannot...but that I Can.
The prizes of life we fail to win because we doubt the powers within." anonymous swimmer
"World-class swimmers now begin training about the age of five. Physiological tracts for coaches remind them that in swimming, "asphyxiating fatigue precedes all others and does not harm the organism." This means that a coach can work a child to exhaustion with a clear conscience; and it is worth noting that swimming is the only sport in which this is true."
"It is said, that swimming is a sport of masochists in that there is little money or reward to gain for the excruciating amount of pain and agony that is required to achieve any status or recognition, if ever." George Haines Santa Clara Swim Cub....coach for Mark Spitz, Don Shollander, Donna Deverona, and 88 other world class and Olympic swimmers.
C...when I was about 8 years old (after being moved up in with the older kids ) and from that time until I graduated high school. My weekly routine consisted of.....M, W,F...get up at 5:45am., swim for an 1;15min....go to school...get out of school....swim for 2 1/2 -3 hours...go home eat, fall asleep and get up and do it again. On Saturdays if you didn't go to work outs....you had a swim meet to compete in. Tues and Thurs...we got to sleep in and only worked out in the afternoon. Many meets were actually two day events Saturday and Sunday.... so that meant you were swimming 7 days a week at different times. I did this non stop for 12 years straight.....10 months out of the year including during the summer break from school (except for baseball season only for 3 years).
There were times when you would puke repeatedly in the gutter after hitting the wall and then wiped your mouth and took off again when the whistle blew. There were times when we had to lift our team mates out of the water (or get lifted yourself) because your arms no longer had enough strength in them to pull yourself out of the pool. There a couple of rare times even... when a team mate would pass out from lack of oxygen and sink to the bottom and we would have to grab their arms and pull them up to the surface and hold them against the wall so they wouldn't drown until they revived and could keep on swimming after that.
I remember times when both of my legs cramping so badly I couldn't walk or use them to kick anymore and I had to use only my arms to pull me through the water. This was a regular occurrence. Our coach would run over to each swimmer at times to check their pulse to see how high their heart rate was. If it was under 190-200beats per minute...you had to stay longer by yourself and swim and extra 10 minutes of 400 yards butterfly at the end of the workout (brutal....very few people actually took that course of action!! double yikes!!!)
On a daily basis....we swam until the "bear jumps on your back".....which is what happens when the oxygen supply in your arm and legs gets so low that you begin to lose function and control of them any longer and you feel like your heart is going to jump out of your chest and you might have a heart attack (or as it seemed) is is pounding so hard. There are times even if you don't pass out...you have momentary grey outs or lost moments of cognition and then come back in again.
Every girl or boy did the entire workout. There were no sit outs....no quitting.....no skipping workouts. If you were late....the door would be locked and you were not allowed in after that. If you were late two times you were suspended for a week. If you were late three times.....you were suspended for a month. If you were late more than that....you had one chance to redeem your self by signing a contract that if you missed or were late one more time....you were off the team for good.
12 years straight....10 months a year....6 - 7 days a week......5,000 yards a day (3 miles per day or approx. 20 miles per week average). That's 10,000 miles or almost half way around the earth.
Why on earth would any one ever do this? I do know why and also know the magic that comes from it........"the best journey I've been on, and the most painful"....that' why. Are you beginning to see the light?
J
I'll never look at a swimmer in the same light again:)
Submitted by c ur self on
I've got a friend who has 9 children; they are swimmers....The whole family loads up and goes to work outs...They also travel around doing competitive meets...They most really enjoy it....
When you get to a point on these journey's (trails of life) where you can take a breathe and look back at the things you've endured, and the things you've learned it gives you encouragement to continue....The staircase of life has very step area's, so steep we wonder if we can every move up....But there is a secret to moving up those super steep places....It's self-awareness:)
C