I have these words to describe what I see happening on this board. There may or may not be ADD/ADHD but many of us are in coupledom with someone who values their independence above all.
Descriptions of those who value their independence above all are: They do not want to be depended on. They want to be left alone most of the time to "sail their own ship". They resent someone desiring partnership or teamwork. They don't mind breaking promises....promises are a burden to them. They may lie so that they can do what they want to do rather than what you could do together. They don't make future plans with you or without you because that would take away from their independent impulse living. They don't want to be ruled by the clock but rather "come if and when they get their". Don't count of them. They make sure they get their share (or a little more, hehehe, if they can out of the deal) They don't share thoughts or feelings because that would make them vulnerable and answerable. They turn on the charm to manipulate a conversation to "get away with" their own agenda. They are selfish in that their money and their time is THEIRS....not to be shared but compartmentalized so they can guard themselves in offense/defense.
The people who find themselves on this board are those of us who, when we said "and now the two will become one", believed that two were better than one and had the vision of building a life TOGETHER. We believed that walking through life with someone by your side made both of you better and stronger than either of us alone. We were happy to have someone to give our love and energy and support to because we believed that THAT is what love is.
H's definition of love is, when I asked him, "To feel pleasure". So, again, there is that independence...Love, to him, is HIS singular feelings. If his feelings are gone, then, the love is gone...So in his perspective, love goes out the window when he is not being pleasured.
My definition of love is, when you care more for a loved ones well-being than your own. Because love is an action and an effort.
When one person loves one way and the other person loves the other way, We have the problems we see here on this board. Maybe ADD does have a small part of this independence vs partnership dilemma, maybe its just an attitude separate from any ADD. I know someone, myself included probably, would respond with "There must be a balance." But that is the problem I see here. There is no balance. The partnering spouse feels unloved. The independent spouse feels????? smart? and free? Because the "one who cares least wins" in a relationship with an independent person it seems. Or at least, to those of us who expected a partnership in marriage, it seems they can get what they want by themselves - since they just want freedom to do as they choose without limits or expectations and they can find pleasure for themselves just about anywhere...new pleasures without strings. Those of us who want to walk hand in hand through a life together with a loved one, don't get what we want.
My husband was a traveling salesman who does not wear a wedding ring. As I have heard it said, "I am married. My husband is not married. But I am married."
Hi Jenna....
Submitted by c ur self on
When I read this....I thought Yes, Yes and Yes....You put into words the reality many of us (myself included) live with on a daily basis.....
What is this? What causes it?
Is it mental illness?
Is it extreme selfishness?
Is the person who has this as their reality aware of it?? Which would make them completely uncaring, evil and abusive if they are fully aware? Or, are they completely blind to it, is there mental disabilities that keeps them from SEEING their self absorbed way of living??
We may never know 100% what it is, or what is producing it.....
What we can answer though is what are we going to do about it ??
What action, if any, are we (the spouse) going to take?? Nothing, and continue to live out our days experiencing this dysfunction?? Find ways to change our selves, that allows us to never consider our lose in the marriage?? Leave and look for a more peaceful life away from their presents?? something else??
Yes this reality that you so honestly and truthfully put into words is what it is....There is no love coming back, which is much more painful than being alone. (in my view anyway) As for as their living of life is concerned, everything is fine, until the next time they want something from you, (that you question) which is very often here.....
But what about us, who are not fine with it?? What are we going to do with all of our questions??
I've personally asked her to change or leave....Lose the victim mind about her responsibilities in marriage, or move on.....I refuse to endure the selfishness any longer....She can go live alone, and her selfishness want effect anyone else (expect those who choose to endure it for short periods)....What she calls good friends, is the sweet people who allow her to use them at her discretion, and that's usually last minute) She can consume herself w/ her own entertainment methods for as long as the lord allows her life on this earth...I think that my be her only hope of ever SEEING!
I do apologize for something I said in an earlier post about being hopeless....I'm not hopeless...My faith isn't in her, my faith is in my father....I hurt for her, I hurt for our marriage, and I also hurt for myself...
In the church body when someone is disfellowshipped, (asked to not attend worship w/ the group any longer) from the believing group, because of their open sin, (refuses to repent once confronted in love) it's so they can have a chance to be saved!....The bible says to do this in hopes it will save their souls!...They will usually chose fleshly bitterness and blame, or repentance and humility of heart.......
Do I love my spouse enough to force her out of her comfortable self absorbed life by removing my presents?? Can I take away her security blanket that is allowing her to live quiet comfortably in her world of denial, blame, excuses, and self justification??
Yep Jenna the ball isn't in their court, it's in ours!
C
I read an article today about
Submitted by Hopeful Heart on
I read an article today about what 'love' means to a narcissist. Sadly, a lot of this applies to my relationship with my ADHD husband. He has very strong narcissistic tendencies. I don't think he feeds off of the destruction that he causes the same way a narcissist does. I think it's just a natural side effect of his ADHD. However, the damage is still the same. I'm not sure if he really has the ability to truly love.
Here is an excerpt from the article.
“I love you” means I love the way I feel when you are with me, more specifically, regarding you as a piece of property I own, my possession. Like driving a hot car, I love the extent to which you enhance my status in the eyes of others, letting them know that I’m top dog, and so on. I love thinking others are jealous of my possessions.
I love the power I have to keep you working hard to prove your love and devotion, wondering what else you need to do to “prove” your loyalty.
“I love you” means I love the way I feel when I’m with you. Due to how often I hate and look down on others in general, the mirror neurons in my brain keep me constantly experiencing feelings of self-loathing; thus, I love that I can love myself through you, and also love hating you for my “neediness” of having to rely on you or anyone for anything.
I love that you are there to blame whenever I feel this “neediness”; feeling scorn for you seems to protect me from something I hate to admit, that I feel totally dependent on you to “feed” my sense of superiority and entitlement, and to keep my illusion of power alive in my mind.
(Nothing makes me feel more fragile and vulnerable than not having control over something that would tarnish my image and superior status, such as when you question “how” I treat you, as if you still don’t understand that getting you to accept yourself as an object for my pleasure, happy regardless of how I treat you, or the children — is key proof of my superiority, to the world. You’re my possession, remember? It’s my job to teach you to hate and act calloused toward those “crazy” things that only “weak” people need, such as “closeness” and “emotional stuff;” and by the way, I know this “works” because my childhood taught me to do this to myself inside.)
It makes me light up with pleasure (more proof of my superiority) that I can easily get you flustered, make you act “crazy” over not getting what you want from me, make you repeat yourself, and say and do things that you’ll later hate yourself for (because of your “niceness”!). Everything you say, any hurts or complaints you share, you can be sure, I’ll taunt you with later, to keep you ever-spinning your wheels, ever trying to explain yourself, ever doubting yourself and confused, trying to figure out why I don’t “get” it.
(There’s nothing to get! To break the code, you’d have to look through my lens, not yours! It’s my job to show complete disinterest in your emotional needs, hurts, wants, and to train, dismiss and punish accordingly, until you learn your “lesson,” that is: To take your place as a voiceless object, a possession has no desire except to serve my pleasure and comfort, and never an opinion on how its treated!)
(That you can’t figure this out, after all the ways I’ve mistreated you, to me, is proof of my genetic superiority. In my playbook, those with superior genes are never kind, except to lure and snare their victims!)
I love that I can make you feel insecure at the drop of a hat, especially by giving attention to other women (perhaps also others in general, friends, family members, children, etc. … the list is endless). What power this gives me to put a display of what you don’t get from me, to taunt and make you beg for what I easily give to others, wondering why it’s so easy to give what you want to others, to express feelings or affection, to give compliments, that is, when it serves my pleasure (in this case, to watch you squirm).
I love the power I have to get you back whenever you threaten to leave, by throwing a few crumbs your way, and watching how quickly I can talk you into trusting me when I turn on the charm, deceiving you into thinking, this time, I’ll change.
I love you” means I need you because, due to the self-loathing I carry inside, I need someone who won’t abandon me that I can use as a punching bag, to make myself feel good by making them feel bad about themselves. (This is how I pleasure myself, and the way I numb, deny the scary feelings I carry inside that I hope to never admit, ever. I hate any signs of weakness in me, which is why I hate you, and all those I consider inferior, stupid, feeble, and so on.)
“I love you” means that I love fixing and shaping your thoughts and beliefs, being in control of your mind, so that you think of me as your miracle and savior, a source of life and sustenance you depend on, and bouncing back to, like gravity, no matter how high you try to fly away or jump.
I love that this makes me feel like a god, to keep you so focused (obsessed…) with making me feel worshiped and adored, sacrificing everything for me to prove yourself so that I don’t condemn you, seeking to please none other, and inherently, with sole rights to administer rewards and punishments as I please.
I love how I can use my power to keep you down, doubting and second-guessing yourself, questioning your sanity, obsessed with explaining yourself to me (and others), professing your loyalty, wondering what’s wrong with you (instead of realizing that … you cannot make someone “happy” who derives their sense of power and pleasure from feeling scorn for others … and you!).
“I love you” means I love the way I feel when I see myself through your admiring eyes, that you’re my feel-good drug, my dedicated audience, my biggest fan and admirer, and so on. You, and in particular, your looking up to me, unquestionably, as your never-erring, omniscient, omnipotent source of knowledge is my drug of choice. (You may have noticed how touchy I am at any signs of being question; yes, I hate how fragile I feel at any sign of thinking that you, or the world, could judge me as having failed to keep my possessions in line.)
And I love that, no matter how hard you beg and plead for my love and admiration, to feel valued in return, it won’t happen, as long as I’m in control. Why would I let it, when I’m hooked on deriving pleasure from depriving you of anything that would be wind beneath your wings, risking you’d fly away from me? It gives me great pleasure to not give you what you yearn for, the tenderness you need and want, and to burst your every dream and bubble, then telling myself, “I’m no fool.”
I love that I can control your attempts to get “through” to me, by controlling your mind, in particular, by shifting the focus of any “discussion” onto what is wrong with you, your failure to appreciate and make me feel loved, good enough — and of course, reminding you of all I’ve done for you, and how ungrateful you are.
I love how I skillfully manipulate others’ opinions of you as well, getting them to side with me as the “good” guy, and side against you as the “bad” guy, portraying you as needy, never satisfied, always complaining, selfish and controlling, and the like.
I love how easy it is for me to say “No!” to what may provide you a sense of value and significance in relation to me, with endless excuses, and that I instead keep your focus on my needs and wants, my discomforts or pain.
I love feeling that I own your thoughts, your ambitions, and ensuring your wants and needs are solely focused on not upsetting me, keeping me happy.
I love being a drug of choice you “have to” have, regardless of how I mistreat you, despite all the signs that your addiction to me is draining the energy from your life, that you are at risk of losing more and more of what you most value, and hold dear, to include the people you love, and those who love and support you.
I love that I can isolate you from others who may nourish you, and break the spell, and I love making you mistrust them, so that you conclude no one else really wants to put up with you, but me.
I love that I can make you feel I’m doing you a favor by being with you and throwing crumbs your way. Like a vacuum, the emptiness inside me is in constant need of sucking the life and breath and vitality you bring to my life, which I crave like a drug that can never satisfy, that I fight to hoard, and hate the thought of sharing.
While I hate you and my addiction to your caring attention, my neediness keeps me craving to see myself through your caring eyes, ever ready to admire, adore, forgive, make excuses for me, and fall for my lies and traps.
I love that you keep telling me how much I hurt you, not knowing that, to me, this is like a free marketing report, which lets me know how effective my tactics have been to keep you in pain, focused on alleviating my pain — so that I am ever the winner in this competition — ensuring that you never weaken (control) me with your love- and emotional-closeness stuff.
In short, when I say “I love you,” I love the power I have to remain a mystery that you’ll never solve because of what you do not know (and refuse to believe), that: the only one who can win this zero-sum-winner-takes-all game is the one who knows “the rules.” My sense of power rests on ensuring you never succeed at persuading me to join you in creating a mutually-kind relationship because, in my worldview, being vulnerable, emotionally expressive, kind, caring, empathetic, innocent are signs of weakness, proof of inferiority.
WOW Hopeful Heart....That is some perverting thinking!
Submitted by c ur self on
That is some nasty stuff....I can't even imagine anyone having that type of premeditated thoughts, feelings and realities.....Maybe I'm naive...But that sounds sinister to me....I know it's a bad world, but if I thought I even knew someone that messed up in their mind....I would surly avoid contact w/ that character disordered individual.....
C
I don't believe that anyone
Submitted by Hopeful Heart on
I don't believe that anyone with ADHD has the vicious intentions described in the article. But, my husband's lack of empathy, extreme inward thinking, and unrelenting hyperfocus seem to produce the same results in our marriage.
Im sorry I didn't make that more clear.
Hopeful Heart....
Submitted by c ur self on
I guess I was just a little shocked that some people could actually be so sadistic and abusive, w/ that kind of though out intent.....(never read an article that laid it out just that way) it's scary!
But I too experience many of the same type results...It's like she is incapable of giving herself or taking part in activities that are her responsibility, if she determines it's not fun, (self entertaining) or don't give pleasure to her....
Simple things like cooking, cleaning and sex is not a natural joy and/or fun thing for her. (sex use to be, of course that speaks for itself) so she has no problem just acting as though they don't exist....She has no conscience that calls her to be responsible to her spouse, or home....It's not fun, no problem, it's gone!... lol...(What is up with a mind like that??)...This 9 year reality is why I asked her to change or please leave.....
How does a person live with their spouse.....And watch their spouse get up, be faithful to the work of the day, to work in the home and just simply do the work of being accountable, to love and serve them in all area's of life.....(Doing the work of a marriage)....But live like they have no convictions or heart in the same matters when it comes to their responsibility?
It's amazing to me.....(I know it is to you too, that is what we keep asking each other here on the forum) Maybe some where in their brain they never grew past childhood in the awareness, or conscience dept...(I know their is much more than add/adhd going on in some of our partners heads and hearts)
And based on that article which is written almost like a testimony from some kind of sadist...I guess some people can live life so perverted and messed up, that they enjoy abusing and using the people they say they love.....
C
Wow is Right...............................C
Submitted by kellyj on
This is what has taken me so long to accept and figure out. It's taken my T, trying to tell me many times in many ways that my own father was this person. As described. It is outside your thinking and you can't even imagine it. I've said that too. But yet it's real and it is the reality for a person like this. The deep seated feelings are contempt towards the world in an ongoing fashion that extends to everything. But "feelings" have very little to do with it which is the hardest part to accept or to come to terms with. I like you was "naive" to this since it is so outside of what you come up with as an explanation. Nothing you can ever come up with on your own or ways to explain this or put it in it's place ever "fits" what your senses are telling you. I came up with 100's....maybe 10000's of excuses for my father and his behavior all based on how I felt and my own feelings to people in general.
It does sound sinister, but that is where this entire thing becomes so un-nerving and surreal. Using my own words and simply out of a lack of a better way to say it just from what I have come to know and accept ....is reality out there, and for some people in it like my father and as I'm saying this, D here, with a fresher set of eyes.
And also responding to Hopeful Hearts comment too. About how people with ADHD, perhaps should not automatically be included into those statements made ( from an apparent Narcissist ) since this extreme or example does not represent someone with ADHD specifically speaking as to the way they think and how their mind works? I would have to agree now, in everything I've learned since this is not how I think or feel about things and the word "hate" does not show up in my narrative in this way and even if it does, it is more figurative and not actually expressing "HATE" or "Hatred" to the point that you wish or want that "thing" dead, gone, completely out of existence to the point of taking action against it in a premeditated way.
I mean, I don't know how many ways I can express this but they all come up the same way no matter how I do it to show you what I'm saying? I may have or have had......"thoughts, like I wish I was dead or that I wanted to die or kill myself" in the case of an extreme moment of despair, feeling deeply sorry for myself and very much hopeless and seemingly no way out from this feeling. The is consuming feeling that it "over". I'll never recover from this and life just isn't worth living any more and I just want to die and get it over with. I'd call that a "dark thought" right there and about as dark and hopeless and loss of anything you can believe in to pull you back from the brink of destruction with leaves no options or no alternative and no way out from this feeling you have, that you life and you are worthless and you might as well just cash it in and get it over with?
And when I read or hear these disclaimers on drugs sometimes, you hear the term "suicidal thoughts or ideation" used or thrown out there. What I just described as I understand this, is a "suicidal thought" and thankfully in my case, let me tell you a little about that just to clarify. I may have been brought down so low to this state, where it hurts so bad and I cannot stand the pain any longer.....that this notion or thought right in that extreme or severe moment of pain, and self doubt....that for a brief time and not very long ( like minutes not hours ) I've had these flashes or thoughts before that come from exactly what I said. Your self esteem has plummeted so low, that you can go no lower and you hit the bottom and that's it. When your own value has sunken so low and there is no hope ( in the moment ) feeling like "it will always be this way and never be better!!!"....as an extreme self pity party and feeling sorry for yourself and all is lost....all faith, hope, and optimism is gone and you've gone completely negative and nothing anyone has to say will help much except.........all it takes is someone to come along and pull you out of it. Someone to remind you of what you to look forward to and what good things are still waiting and you have in store to look forward to? Even at first if you go "no, no.....it will never be!!! All is lost, oh me oh my......my life is over and it will never be "good" ever again!!" Even within that argument /statement in responding to the other person who is there trying to brighten you up and make you see the better side or the bright side.........even in those moments for me.......it's a passing flash or a passing thought and I immediately "snap out of it" and in this hypothetical and that other person is there trying to cheer you up.......I go back, to the way I was before and "snap back" and go......"yeah ( sniff sniff )......you're right, I know you are and this will all pass soon enough. Gee, you're so right.....I have man things to be thankful for and here I am, contemplating my own demise? How foolish we can get when we get so down on our selves.....blah, blah, blah.........
But I can clearly remember these "few moments" like this when I had a "suicidal thought" just like that and I "hated myself" that much or that badly. Those moments came at a time when....what I needed was a reality check, and this was my brains way of getting me to "wake up" and see the alternatives from the situation I was in. Like the beginning call that "Hey, dude......wake up, snap out of it........what the Hell are you thinking??" and all it takes it someone else ( or not but in my case my mother for example ) to come along and say just those same thoughts interjected into this "all is lost, doom and gloom the end is nigh......I want to die" feeling.....to get that same process kick started in my head as I described and they were just there to pull you up and bruch you off and get you moving again. I've done it alone by myself and I've had someone like my mother come along in my time of need and pull me out from the bottom and give me a helping hand?
I can't speak for anyone else.....but I've had moments like this and thoughts like this too. "Suicidal thoughts" as they are called and they are few and far between but they are always tied directly to some big loss, or some extreme moment of pain and self doubt but they never.....and I mean this sincerely......they never turn into "thinking about doing it...and planning or conceiving the means, the how I going to do it, picturing myself doing it, where, when, how.....and then actually following through and visualizing the entire "Suicide" and the actual killing of myself. Like walking to the edge of the cliff and throwing myself off or getting a gun out and putting it to my head or in my mouth and pulling the trigger? There is a place or a line or a "thing" inside me ( a positive thing or a survival instinct and feeling ) that stops you or prevents you from doing this to the point, you can't even think it through all the way....something "stops you" and you can't proceed any further.
The ability to actually carry this out in a premeditated way as you are describing....is the "ideation" of it.......formulating the "concept" and the entire process all the way through so you can sit and "imagine doing it" and "visualizing" the entire process and play that tape or video in your head and watch yourself do the very thing you are visualizing or conceiving of, or forming the "realization" of this thing happening, The actual manifestation of the "act of doing it" ...in "reality now"...for "real". Like you are "living it for real....and experiencing it in real time"...and then start planning it and getting together what you need to do it, and then start to carry it out ....in the physical. What I'm saying is, getting a "gun"...and then putting the bullets in, and then putting it to your head....and then all that's left is pulling the trigger? As if you are threatening yourself........but then never pull the trigger?
And really, if you stop and think about it........."ideation" in how I just described it, happens all the time? "Ideation"......itself is not a problem and for all intensive purposes....it serves a purpose and is not confined to "hate" or "killing yourself", or "strapping a bomb to your chest" and walking into a McDonalds...and taking yourself out as well as a bunch of other people in a so called terrorist attack or these "double murder homicides" you hear about where that person kills a bunch of people and then in the end turns the gun on themselves? So why do that? I have wondered long and hard why and even know one person who survived such a thing. A man that use to deliver our oxygen and gas replacements at work, came home from a long planned vacation to Australia with his wife.....only as fate would have it......was in the wrong place at the wrong time....and was involved and survived ( both he and his wife ) a gun man who went on a rampage and killed 35 people and wounded 23 others in the span of several hours in multiple locations. Meaning, he had lots of time, planned the entire day, had his routes and plans all lined up and all the preparations made ahead of time, to do what he did in different locations or the same small town ship?
As it said taken from Wikipedia:
The Port Arthur massacre of 28–29 April 1996 was a massacre in which 35 people were killed and 23 wounded. It occurred mainly at the historic Port Arthur former prison colony,[1] a popular tourist site in south-eastern Tasmania, Australia.[2] It was the deadliest mass shooting in Australian history, and amongst the most notable in history.[3]
Martin Bryant, a 28-year-old from New Town, a suburb of Hobart, was found guilty of the shootings and given 35 life sentences without possibility of parole.[4] Following the incident, it emerged in the media that Bryant had significant intellectual disabilities. He is now imprisoned in the Wilfred Lopes Center, near the Risdon Prison Complex.[5]
This gentleman that I knew personally through work, came home from vacation and on his first arrival back on the job where I was theforman and dealt directly with him as part of my job......I saw a band aid on his head and some cuts on his arm and I jokely asked if he had a good vaction and "looks like it got rough" or something like that making comment about his bandages as way to ask for further explanation in a light hearted way? And this guy was truly amazing at how well he was able to handle this or even deal with what he had just gone through but he frankly told me the story of what happened to him....but the point of the bandages and cuts on his arm? They came from "skull fragments", that came from the man, who was in front of he and his wife, as they hunkered down and were hiding from this gun man in a cafeteria there having lunch......and this poor unlucky fellow who jumped under the table with them, just happened to be exposed enough so that the gun man could see him but not this fellow and his wife who were right there with him under the same table together hiding, The gun man walked by causally as he was making his rounds through the cafeteria, and was summarily "executing people" at random..and the fragments of this one fellows SKULL.....hit him in the arm and shoulder and neck and cut his badly enough that he was bleeding from these cut pretty badly even though superficial, he had blood all over him and part of it was his and part of it was this victim who ultimately saved he and his wife's life by simply being there to block the view of them behind this other unfortunate fellow. He said the gun man, calmly strolled through the area just picking people off at point bland range and wasn't really bothering to look under the tables which he said he would have had to bend down and look...which he never did which saved them.
Here's the excerpt of that event that day including the one my business friend or associatedescribe in his first hand account, This only happened 2 weeks prior so it was a chilling thing to hear first hand and how he described it. It definitely left and impression on me no doubt. I was especially embarrassed about my comment but he quickly told me to let it go......as he said "no one could predict this, and it' hard to believe..and I'm still having moments where I doubt it myself since I have dreams about it and then wake up and have to decide if it was real or if it was just a dream?"
Martin Bryant inherited about $570,000 AUD (£300,000 GBP or $450,000 USD) worth of property and other assets from a friend, Helen Harvey, who left her estate to him.[7] He used part of this money to go on many trips around the world from 1993 onwards.[8] Bryant also withdrew many thousands of dollars during this period. He used at least some of this money in late 1993 to purchase an AR-10 semi-automatic rifle through a newspaper advertisement in Tasmania. In March 1996, he had his AR-10 repaired at a gun shop and made enquiries about AR-15 rifles in other gun shops. In April 1995, he also purchased cleaning kits for a .30 calibre weapon and a 12 gauge Daewoo shotgun. He purchased a sports bag and told a shop attendant that it would need to be strong enough to carry large amounts of ammunition. He told his girlfriend, Petra Wilmott, a different story about the purpose of the bag. He also hid the weapons and a large amount of ammunition at his house. At the time of purchase no registration of guns outside of handguns was required in Tasmania.
Bryant's father had tried to purchase a bed and breakfast property called Seascape, but David and Noelene (also known as Sally) Martin bought this property before his father could ready his finances, much to the disappointment of the father who often complained to his son of the "double dealing" the Martins had done to secure the purchase. Bryant offered to buy another property from the Martins at Palmers Lookout Road, but they declined the offer. Bryant apparently believed the Martins had deliberately bought the property to hurt his family and believed this event to be responsible for the depression that led to his father's suicide, which in turn led to their own murders. Bryant described them as "very mean people" and as "the worse [sic] people in my life."[9]
Background
See also: Martin Bryant
Martin Bryant inherited about $570,000 AUD (£300,000 GBP or $450,000 USD) worth of property and other assets from a friend, Helen Harvey, who left her estate to him.[7] He used part of this money to go on many trips around the world from 1993 onwards.[8] Bryant also withdrew many thousands of dollars during this period. He used at least some of this money in late 1993 to purchase an AR-10 semi-automatic rifle through a newspaper advertisement in Tasmania. In March 1996, he had his AR-10 repaired at a gun shop and made enquiries about AR-15 rifles in other gun shops. In April 1995, he also purchased cleaning kits for a .30 calibre weapon and a 12 gauge Daewoo shotgun. He purchased a sports bag and told a shop attendant that it would need to be strong enough to carry large amounts of ammunition. He told his girlfriend, Petra Wilmott, a different story about the purpose of the bag. He also hid the weapons and a large amount of ammunition at his house. At the time of purchase no registration of guns outside of handguns was required in Tasmania.
Bryant's father had tried to purchase a bed and breakfast property called Seascape, but David and Noelene (also known as Sally) Martin bought this property before his father could ready his finances, much to the disappointment of the father who often complained to his son of the "double dealing" the Martins had done to secure the purchase. Bryant offered to buy another property from the Martins at Palmers Lookout Road, but they declined the offer. Bryant apparently believed the Martins had deliberately bought the property to hurt his family and believed this event to be responsible for the depression that led to his father's suicide, which in turn led to their own murders. Bryant described them as "very mean people" and as "the worse [sic] people in my life."[9]
28 April 1996
The events of this day were pieced together after investigation by police. The facts were then presented in court on 19 November 1996.[10]
Morning events
Bryant was awakened at 6:00 a.m. by his alarm clock. His girlfriend and other family members said he had never been known to use it since he did not work and had no other commitments. At 8:00 a.m., his girlfriend left the house to visit her parents. Bryant left the house and switched on the burglar alarm, which registered the time as 9:47 a.m.
Bryant travelled to Forcett Village, arriving some time around 11:00 a.m. He continued down to Port Arthur and was seen driving into Seascape down the Arthur Highway around 11:45 a.m. He stopped at the Seascape guest accommodation site that his father had wanted to purchase, owned by David and Noelene Martin. Bryant went inside and fired several shots, then gagged David Martin and stabbed him. Witnesses testified to different numbers of shots fired at this time. It was stated in court that it was believed that this was the time that Bryant killed the Martins, his first two victims.
A couple stopped at Seascape. Bryant appeared outside. When they asked if they could have a look at the accommodation, Bryant told them that they could not because his parents were away and his girlfriend was inside. His demeanour was described as quite rude and the couple felt uncomfortable. They left at about 12:35 p.m. Bryant's car was seen reversed up to the front door. It is assumed he unloaded ammunition.[10]
Bryant drove to Port Arthur, taking the keys to the Seascape properties after locking the doors. Bryant stopped at a car which had pulled over from overheating and talked with two people there. He suggested that they come to the Port Arthur café for some coffee later.[11]
He travelled past the Port Arthur historic site toward a Palmer's Lookout Road property owned by the Martins, where he came across Roger Larner driving out of his driveway. Larner had met him on some occasions more than 15 years before, but did not initially recognise him. Bryant told Larner he had been surfing and had bought a property called Fogg Lodge and was now looking to buy some cattle from Larner. Bryant also made several comments about buying the Martins' place next door. He asked if Marian Larner was home, and asked if he could continue down the driveway of the farm to see her. Larner said OK, but told Bryant he would come also. Bryant changed his mind and left, claiming he was going to return in the afternoon.[citation needed]
Port Arthur Historic Site
Port Arthur Bay, Port Arthur, was the location of most of the shootings
At around 1:10 p.m., Bryant got in line at the toll booth at the entrance to the historic site. Upon getting close to the toll booth, he left the line and moved to the back again. Eventually getting to the front of the line, he claimed someone had almost reversed into him. He paid the entry fee and proceeded to park near the Broad Arrow Café, near the water's edge. The site security manager told him to park with the other cars because that area was reserved for camper-vans and the car park was very busy that day. Bryant moved his car to another area and sat in his car for a few minutes. He then moved his car back near the water, outside the café. The security manager saw him go up to the café carrying a large bag and a video camera, but ignored him.
Bryant went into the café and purchased a meal, which he ate on the deck outside. He attempted to start conversations with people about the lack of "wasps" in the area and there not being as many Japanese tourists as usual, but he seemed to be mainly mumbling to himself. He appeared nervous and continually looked back to the car-park and into the café.
Broad Arrow Café murders
Bryant finished his meal, walked into the café and returned his tray, assisted by some people who opened the door for him. He put his bag down on a table and pulled a Colt AR-15 SP1 Carbine with a Colt scope and one 30-round magazine attached out of the bag. He left the bag which contained, among other things, the knife with which he had stabbed Martin, on the table. It is believed the magazine was partially emptied from the shootings at Seascape.
The café was very small, with the tables very close together. It was busy that day as people waited for the next ferry. The events happened extremely quickly. Bryant took aim from his hip and pointed his rifle at Moh Yee (William) Ng and Sou Leng Chung, who were visiting from Malaysia,[12] who were at a table beside Bryant. He shot them at close range, killing both instantly. Bryant then fired a shot at Mick Sargent, grazing his scalp and knocking him to the floor.[12] He fired a fourth shot that killed Sargent's girlfriend, 21-year-old Kate Elizabeth Scott, by hitting her in the back of the head.[12]
A 28-year-old New Zealand winemaker, Jason Winter, had been helping the busy café staff.[12] As Bryant turned towards Winter's wife Joanne and their 15-month-old son Mitchell, Winter threw a serving tray at Bryant in an attempt to distract him. Joanne Winter's father pushed his daughter and grandson to the floor and under the table.[13]
The café structure in 2015. A memorial garden has been established at the site.
44-year-old Anthony Nightingale stood up after the sound of the first shots, but had no time to move. Nightingale yelled "No, not here!" as Bryant pointed the weapon at him.[12] As Nightingale leaned forward, he was fatally shot through the neck and spine.[12]
The next table had held a group of ten friends,[12] but some had just left the table to return their meal trays and visit the gift shop. Bryant fired one shot that killed Kevin Vincent Sharp, 68.[12] The second hit Walter Bennett, passed through his body and struck Raymond John Sharp, 67, Kevin Sharp's brother, killing both.[12] The three had their backs towards Bryant, and were unaware what was happening. They at first believed someone was letting off firecrackers. One of them made the comment "That's not funny" after hearing the first few shots, not realising that they were real. The shots were all close range, with the gun at, or just inches away from, the back of their heads. Gerald Broome, Gaye Fidler and her husband John, were all struck by bullet fragments, but survived.[12]
Bryant then turned towards Tony and Sarah Kistan and Andrew Mills.[12] Both men stood up at the noise of the initial shots, but had no time to move away. Andrew Mills was shot in the head. Tony Kistan was also shot from about two metres away, also in the head, but had managed to push his wife away prior to being shot. Sarah Kistan was apparently not seen by Bryant, as she was under the table by that time.
Thelma Walker and Pamela Law were injured by fragments before being dragged to the ground by their friend, Peter Crosswell, as the three sheltered underneath the table.[12] Also injured by fragments from these shots was Patricia Barker.[12]
It was only then that the majority of the people in the café began to realise what was happening and that the shots were not from a reenactment at the historical site. At this point, there was great confusion, with many people not knowing what to do, as Bryant was near the main exit.
Bryant moved just a few metres and began shooting at the table where Graham Colyer, Carolyn Loughton and her daughter Sarah were seated. Colyer was injured in the jaw, nearly choking to death on his own blood.[12] Sarah Loughton ran towards her mother, who had been moving between tables. Carolyn Loughton threw herself on top of her daughter.[12] Bryant shot Carolyn Loughton in the back; her eardrum was ruptured by the muzzle blast from the gun going off beside her ear.[12] She survived her injuries, but learned after she came out of surgery that, despite her efforts, Sarah had been fatally shot in the head.[12]
Bryant pivoted around and shot Mervyn Howard who was seated.[12] The bullet passed through him, through a window of the café, and hit a table on the outside balcony.[12] Bryant quickly followed up with a shot to the neck of Mervyn Howard's wife, Mary.[12] Bryant then leaned over a vacant baby stroller and pointed the gun at her head and shot her a second time.[12] Both of the Howards' injuries were fatal.[12] Several people outside then realised there was real danger and began to run away.
Bryant was near the exit, preventing others from attempting to run past him and escape. Bryant moved across the cafe towards the gift shop area. There was an exit door through the display area to the outside balcony, but it was locked and could only be opened with a key. As Bryant moved, Robert Elliott stood up.[13] He was shot in the arm and head, left slumping against the fireplace but alive.[13]
All of these events, from the first bullet that killed Ng, took approximately 15–30 seconds, during which twelve people were killed and ten more wounded.[12]
Gift shop murders
Bryant moved toward the gift shop area, giving many people time to hide under tables and behind shop displays. He fatally shot the two local women who worked in the gift shop, 17-year-old Nicole Burgess in the head, and 26-year-old Elizabeth Howard in the arm and chest.[13]
Coralee Lever and Vera Jary hid behind a hessian screen with others.[13] Lever's husband Dennis was fatally shot in the head.[13] Pauline Masters, Vera Jary's husband Ron, and Peter and Carolyn Nash had attempted to escape through a locked door but could not.[13] Peter Nash lay down on top of his wife to hide her from Bryant.[13] Bryant moved into the gift shop area where people, trapped with nowhere to go, were crouched down in the corners.[13] Gwen Neander, trying to escape through the door, was shot in the head and killed.[13]
Bryant saw movement in the café and moved near the front door. He shot at a table and hit Peter Crosswell, who was hiding under it, in the buttock.[13] Jason Winter, hiding in the gift shop, thought Bryant had left the building and made some comment about it to people near him before moving out into the open. Bryant saw him, with Winter stating "No, no" just prior to being shot, the bullet hitting his hand, neck and chest.[13] A second shot to the head proved fatal to Winter.[13] Fragments from those shots struck American tourist Dennis Olson, who had been hiding with his wife Mary and Winter.[13] Dennis Olson suffered fragment injuries to his hand, scalp, eye and chest, but survived.[13]
It is not clear what happened next, although at some point, Bryant reloaded his weapon. Bryant walked back to the café and then returned to the gift shop, this time looking down to another corner of the shop where he found several people hiding in the corner, trapped. He walked up to them and shot Ronald Jary through the neck, then Peter Nash and Pauline Masters, killing all three.[13] He did not see Carolyn Nash, who was lying under her husband.[13] Bryant aimed his gun at an unidentified Asian man,[14] but the rifle's magazine was empty.[13] Bryant then quickly moved to the gift shop counter, where he reloaded his rifle, leaving an empty magazine on the service counter, and left the building.[13]
Twenty-nine rounds had been fired in the café and gift shop areas in approximately 90–120 seconds[citation needed]. Up to this time, Bryant had killed 22 people and injured 12.
Car park murders
During the café shooting, some staff members had been able to escape through the kitchen and alerted people outside. There were a number of coaches outside with lines of people, many of whom began to hide in the buses or in nearby buildings. Others did not understand the situation or were not sure where to go. Some people believed there was some sort of historical reenactment happening, and moved towards the area.
Ashley John Law, a site employee, was moving people away from the café into the information centre when Bryant fired at him from 50–100 metres (50–110 yards) away. The bullets missed Law and hit some trees nearby.
Bryant then moved towards the coaches. One of the coach drivers, Royce Thompson, was shot in the back as he was moving along the passengers' side of a coach.[13] He fell to the ground and was able to crawl, then roll under the bus to safety, but he later died of his wounds.[13] Brigid Cook was trying to guide a number of people down between the buses and along the jetty area to cover. Bryant then moved to the front of this bus and walked across to the next coach. People had quickly moved from this coach towards the back end, in an attempt to seek cover. As Bryant walked around it, he saw people scrambling to hide and shot at them. Brigid Cook was shot in the right thigh, causing the bone to fragment, the bullet lodging there.[13] A coach driver, Ian McElwee, was hit by fragments of Miss Cook's bone. Both were able to escape and survived.
Bryant then quickly moved around another coach and fired at another group of people. Winifred Aplin, running to get to cover behind another coach, was fatally shot in the side.[13] Another bullet grazed Yvonne Lockley's cheek, but she was able to enter one of the coaches to hide, and survived.[13]
I cannot express how much I understand this. It is the exact thing I would experience with my father...then later with other people but not being able to place this exactly other than "a feeling". Having experienced the "feeling" is not in the norm either. This is where you go "okay, something is really wrong here"...and you know it but you can't figure out why? It domes with a number of other things that all go together here. "Blank look, no or low affect......"cold and unemotional".....but basically calm and collected with out emotion. Especially right afterwards......which as I have found ( now ) .....can come with a superficial "apology" or "I'm sorry......" but not tied to anything specific. It's like it's gone, right after wards with very little emotion involved....like it never happened....and that person isrigtht back to where they were.....as long as you don't bring it up again? Bringing it up again.....or in essense, doing what my mother did and go "C'mon, snap out of it.....look on the bright side......" as a how for concern and in an effort to help that person rise out of their "funk" in a loving and caring way? The way one might expect....in the same way I have done and most likely you and everyone else has done too at different times. That, is not abnormal or weird.......even if it's not exactly what that person wants to hear......it's the thought that counts? It's really hard to stay hateful or be really angry for too long, when someone else won't let you go there and does that " I'll bet you ...you can't smile....or no, looks like a smile is coming.....I see it, here it comes....what ever you do....don't SMILE!!!!"...and of course, that person finally breaks down and smiles and you just helped them snap out of it? I mean, who hasn't done that before on some level? Especially to your kids...to make the "boo boo" go away?
Well, I can tell you who? Someone like my father. In fact, saying things along those lines to help cheer them up.....only makes them more angry than before which is not what you would expect? The same as it was with my wife or D.......that "my wife thing".....it is a force of habit but it comes from hearing this kind of thing and picking it up as a habit or even a normally accepted way of speaking in a more innocuous way? If your trying to stay objective and trying not to get personal....then that language is not so personal which shows less emotion involved. Part of that is out of habit however, in dealing with someone who is triggered by emotional responses of any kind. If you always stay away from anything emotional and the language you use is impersonal of objective......it's a lot safer than speaking with "feelings" or anything emotionally involved since that is always a trigger for something coming back and biting you. This language of "mine" and "yours" and "you you you you......" makes it difficult to determine "who own what" and it's definitely comes from this as I was just reminded of it again myself. What I feel more than anything in the presence of this....is not anger or hatred but :"fear". That "feeling" is "fear".....but having said that....it's not one of being "afraid". It's more of a "fear signal"....that is going off that says "Warning, Warning, Danger Will Robinson"......before something bad is about to happen and yes.....it sometimes does and is for a very good reason I think?
A person who goes into this realm of "Sociopath or Psychopath"...is not just saying they are Narcissistic. A person can be Narcissistic at times and not other times but that doesn't mean they have no feelings or are without "feelings" what so ever?
In fact, just for fun, I took another one of these online tests. This is not to prove to you or anyone else.....it's just a means to show the results I get routinely as a base line for how I think? This one was put out there by Anderson Cooper the News Caser but there are plenty like it out there which are not meant as a means to diagnose people but to show you where you fall on the "spectrum of psychopathy" which apparently.....everyone does fall on the spectrum and it's just another aspect of humanity that does exist? How bad it or how high the score is......tells if a person has gone over the line and into the realm of as your saying it "Character Disordered"....or I might say ..."disturbed".
The book you are reading on a "Wolf in Sheeps Clothing" C.......kept referring to the word "Disturbed" as a means to describe a person like this. A person , without "feelings" what so ever, if they are severely "aggressive" or even "covertly aggressive".
I've had people argue this with me at times which again, now seems to make sense coming from the person arguing it with me? I'd stated this based only on myself in what I use to believe....but now I question my belief but again....on in that there are exceptions to the rule. This is the exception to the rule.....not the rule itself. And as I have argued myself as well....."Moral Compass" does not come from religion or having any religious belief what so ever. You could never hear one word about religion or have any religious back ground or belief taught to you ( at all ) to have a moral compass. A moral compass, you are born with......it tells you what is right and what is wrong and it comes with a conscious. Applying laws and etiquette and all that goes with it....allows you to function and yes.....problem solve and figure things out, without any other reference involved. Up to a point...and then you can go no further. That's where you evolve past that point, but you can still function like any normal person just fine without religion or any religious beliefs what so ever up to that point and make it Okay. You are no threat, to anyone else or any other living creature since.....you have a "moral compass" that you are born with. Everyone has this and they are born with it and they will figure things out on their own after enough times and failures? Normally speaking, I believe this is true. People who have no real religious or spiritual convictions may not be at the peak of what could be....but they aren't a danger to anyone and they are not a threat to you or me or anyone else? As long as they have a conscience.......then they have a moral compass. And with that....they have feelings to go along with it...and are not "blank"...."emotionless" or....."no affect" at time when normally people should? At least....express some kind of response other than anger as their only one? Normally, people are not predatory...and are looking at other people as targets for what they can get from them? Who think it Okay to exploit other people, for what they have to offer them? Normally, people don't enjoy hurting other people. Normally, you would feel a lot of regret, remorse and wishing you could take it back or do something to make up for your failure if this is what happened and you come to find out this was of your doing? Normally I think....a person with a conscience....or one that works well on the scale........you don't need to explain this too.....their conscience is there to explain it to you as well as your feelings?
A person, who can causally stroll through a crowded coffee shop and then gift shop and in a matter of in less than a minute ......execute complete strangers at will at point blank range, this happening after they have already killed some other people in different areas previous, and then get in a car and drive to another place and kill some more people ( a total of 35 people ) in the span of a couple of hours or so.
And when you look up the story as I did and read "WHY?" Here's the WHY part of the story and the reasoning behind this all?
Martin Bryant inherited about $570,000 AUD (£300,000 GBP or $450,000 USD) worth of property and other assets from a friend, Helen Harvey, who left her estate to him.[7] He used part of this money to go on many trips around the world from 1993 onwards.[8] Bryant also withdrew many thousands of dollars during this period. He used at least some of this money in late 1993 to purchase an AR-10 semi-automatic rifle through a newspaper advertisement in Tasmania. In March 1996, he had his AR-10 repaired at a gun shop and made enquiries about AR-15 rifles in other gun shops. In April 1995, he also purchased cleaning kits for a .30 calibre weapon and a 12 gauge Daewoo shotgun. He purchased a sports bag and told a shop attendant that it would need to be strong enough to carry large amounts of ammunition. He told his girlfriend, Petra Wilmott, a different story about the purpose of the bag. He also hid the weapons and a large amount of ammunition at his house. At the time of purchase no registration of guns outside of handguns was required in Tasmania.
Bryant's father had tried to purchase a bed and breakfast property called Seascape, but David and Noelene (also known as Sally) Martin bought this property before his father could ready his finances, much to the disappointment of the father who often complained to his son of the "double dealing" the Martins had done to secure the purchase. Bryant offered to buy another property from the Martins at Palmers Lookout Road, but they declined the offer. Bryant apparently believed the Martins had deliberately bought the property to hurt his family and believed this event to be responsible for the depression that led to his father's suicide, which in turn led to their own murders. Bryant described them as "very mean people" and as "the worse [sic] people in my life."
I don't know about anyone else or how they respond to this, but when I tell someone "politely" with all due respect......"Please don't do that, it really bugs me.....". Or.....I've gotten irritated with that person for doing something hurtful or harmful to me. And then later, they do it again....or do it "more" and seem to increase the frequency in fact.....it appears they didn't listen at all and are now doing the opposite as if they are "trying to hurt me" As if they are ":doing it on purpose" to get back at me or to do ...the very thing you told them not to do.......since now they "know"....how to hurt you and they now know hot to get to you, and manipulate you because of it. But mainly, what I really notice is someone "sabotaging" another person intentionally. Intentionally just for fun, to get their jollies or get some kind of sick pleasure from it. It's these moments that are most disturbing because they go outside of what anyone with a conscience would come up with as a motivation or reason as to why?
And the why is very simple but it's not one you can understand or wrap your head around. They enjoy it. The like hurting people and animals since they get off on it. It's "pleasurable" and "rewarding to them" to hurt people if they can and if they can get away with it. It's not about "things" or doing damage to "things"......it the enjoyment or liking to "hurt people" and to see other people in pain? Or simply that they don't like you and you should be eliminated and done so in a way that they will get some kind of pleasure out of seeing another person in misery. It's almost like a "misery party" or competition...and "No one.....can be more miserable than me. I have the most hurt, and the most pain...of anyone I know. No one knows more about pain and misery...than me and if you dare try me, I will show you the meaning of misery and pain since I have the most and no one gets to have more than me? If there was a victim contest....then they would see themselves as the winner in that one. Only one winner here too.......I win, at being the biggest, smartest and more Victimized Victim....in the World" It's like they....are the "Greatest Martyr...that ever lived!!" On par with Jesus of course.....but even with Jesus, he have to worry since they'd be emvious of him?
Envy, greed, jealousy and hatred .....are the only "feelings" these people seem to have? And devaluing you to the lowest form of pond scum or sub-human ..."non-human"...."thing" to do as they will or at their disposal with no feelins or remorse or guilt what so ever. If you've been idealized first.....the devalued down to "lower than pond scum" or to "sub-human" category.....then that person can do anything they like to you. They can round you up, put on on a freight train, take all you possesions from you, rape you, torture you, and have their way with you for fun. And then send you to the showers to be Cyanide Gasses by the train car loads and not have any affect on them what so ever? No affect....and dehumanizing them and getting pleasure or some kind of joy or entertainment out of it....as if nothing is wrong with that? And the fact that they can do it over and over and it still not bother this person ( and they actually like it ) means something is horribly wrong with them and they have no moral compass that is working? And certainly "no conscious".
But as I have come to terms with this and full well understanding this now where before I was just like you C from being naive like you are? These people exist. They have no feelings what so ever. Blank....expressionless, joyless, nothing. Compared to me, I'm like the opposite of this? I am very "passionate" and my emotions can get away from me at times? But passion, is not "expressionless" or ..."devoid" of feelings. Quite the contrary. My feelings and emotions may get the better of me and I may succumb at time and rage out in anger against something I see or something I see happening that I feel is wrong. Not a good quality and I'm not proud of saying it....but the emotional Libal part of being "impulsive" creates situation where I have to keep my emotions in check and not let them get out of hand or get away from me in the moment. IN THE MOMENT.......it is NOT , premeditated. In fact, everything that has to do with my impulse problems are "in the moment"....they are not "premeditated" and that is also true?
But when a guy, plans and strategies about killings a bunch of people and goes and buys assault rifles and ammo and does all of that......because he was angry at these "evil people" who his dad said ruined him (major victim ...just noting ) and then the father commits suicide...and so now, the son comes along and comes to this conclusion.....then kills those people...and a whole lot of innocent people along with them that had nothing to do with anything?
That's what I call "kicking the dog" behavior......just the more extreme version of it? "Kicking the dog" behavior is not innocuous in my mind. It isn't so random and it isn't just a one time thing or it sounds like.. "I was just mad, that's all. Sorry, I was just angry and had a moment? You understand don't you? It's me, you know me, I would never do anything to hurt you like that."
After they just hurt you like that? I was just kidding, you know me? These things don't register with someone else who hasn't been exposed to someone like this....but those little "tell tales" or "Freudian moments" stand out as weird. Something isn't adding up with what they just said. Something isn't right, and they keep happening? I can't speak for anyone else since I'm just me and this is what I know? But when that happens, I don't feel anger, or necessarily even hatred or disgust? I feel "fear"......deep down, and an uneasy feeling of "distrust". I get a clear sense that they are lying or not telling the truth....( dishonestly as a sense ) even if I have no idea what they are saying ot what they are lying about. It is, where my ability it seems for deductive reasoning comes from and "playing the detective". I had to learn those skills just to survive and stay out of harms way without knowing what, who, when , where. or why........and only go off my instincts and feelings and intuition. And the fact that I've had a conscience ( since a small child thank you very much ).......my bouts with a whole lot of harboring anger or hatred have been short lived at best? Hurting others or animals has never even been in the picture for me, never. Wouldn't dream of it......more to the point?
But that does not say, that I have not had Narcissistic behaviors at times and indirectly or inadvertently done harm or damage to people. No doubt what so ever there? Which is why it was hard or difficult to read through that since it really caused me to feel a lot of shame and guilt for doing any of these things in the past? It's difficult to read and know you caused someone else to suffer but even with reading this as I mentioned....these are just bits and pieces and some left over habitual traits that need a little more work. No where, in my thinking..... do I think, like this person?
And that list of "I love to hate this.......and I Love to Hate that"....WTF up with that? I can tell you WTF up with that. That is a person I am describing. A person ....without feelings. When I got that "hit" and I got it big time the other day with D when I kicked her out of the house and told her not to return........that "hit" was "fear"...not hatred, and I "knew" what that was right then without knowing exactly but it was unmissable. Now that I know the difference....this is what I can say?
There is a "difference" between a Narcissist and a Sociopath. To put this differently......"all Sociopaths are a form or type of Narcissist.....but not all Narcissists are Sociopaths." And the one outstanding difference here is a "conscience" and having "feelings". No conscience......no feelings......no moral compass. It's that simple. There is no hope, for a person without a conscience, and with no other feelings to go off of....then they are not like anyone else you can imagine. They are capable, of doing things to you or anyone else.....beyond your imagination of that go "outside of your thinking". You cannot imagine, just how "low" a person like this can go.....since it's outside of the realms of what you know yourself."
And my feelings and the way I express myself make this distinction clear. I can and have acted out in Narcissistic ways....but I am not a certifiable Narcissist with a personality disorder like that. I can and have acted in self serving ways at the exclusion of others....but I am aware of other people during the time...and avoiding hurting them...is always in my thinking? I may be neglectful more than anything else, which can show up as selfish ( working on that and it's a constant training myself to be more aware )....but at no time has someone said...."stop, your hurting me...." and me going "hmmm, I can use that against them...in fact it would be fun to do that since I'd like to watch them squirm and feel all powerful from doing that to them. On purpose.......that's sound like fun to me "
All I can say is there's a look, and that look is a scary thing and I know those eyes and I know that look well and people like this cannot hide it as they are not seeing themselves in the act? It is not anger, or rage or anything close to it.....it is a subtle thing and a subtle look and it is scary and frightening as all get out. It's the look of someone who appears quite relaxed and not angry or raging at all....in fact, a little smile comes over their face as just the only other tell tale sing so it's not rage or anger....but one of satisfaction and amusement. This when you are on the other end of the poker they just rammed though your gut....and now they are gazing at you while they hold you off the ground by the other end of the poker they have you impaled on, and they are looking at you like an object and just watching you react. Silently taking pleasure as they've got the knife or sword stuck all the way through you and you are lifted off the ground dangling there like a piece of meat...and they taking pleasure at watching you squirm and rithe in pain.....and have this blank look of satisfaction or non expression with perhaps a smile attached to it. After they just ran you through with a long metal spike and impaled you on it.....just for fun. Just to watch you react......for fun and entertainment and for no other reason. It is a look, that you recognize when you see it......being that, in that moment you see it.....you are absolutely traumatized and you don't forget it. It makes no sense what so ever, until you actually realize...what that look actually means?
And just to point this out again to state this clearly and plainly. That look...would normally appear, when someone is giving you pleasure or doing something nice to you or for you? That is when a persons face would normally "light up" and change in it's expression to that one. This is a similar looking face and expression......for the opposite reason. They are giving you pain and making you suffer....and they have the same face or expression NOW....right while or after they do that to you. The willful act of hurting you .....because they enjoy it and it gives them satisfaction to do so. yay!! woopie!!! That was fun, exgilerating, satisfaction and oh so rewarding to do. Look at me, woopie, I'm having fun.
Yeah right......come over here and watch how much fun we can have together......this should prove interesting? As I might say or respond to that? This is my side or response that I have to temper and control when contronted with this "thing" which really does piss me off to no end when I see it of feel it happening to me for obvious reasons.
And in those moments is when I react very vigorously! LOL Or I can depending on......mostly I just move away and try not to be around someone like that after I see it, but sometimes you can't . That's when I turn into a Lawn Mower...and their ass is grass and I kind of come to life when I get that particular "hit".
And just so you know......I did a little experiment here since I said that D does apologize after the fact but is not specific which I read as an apology or sorts until I reconsidered this? I very carefully prepared my demands from her on going and told her what I thought of her and what she has done basically "exposing her to the truth" in writing so I could have a documented way or showing exactly what I 've said.? But I made one and only one contingency here and one absolute demand of her before we continue or speak about anything more?
I simply demanded an apology....and sincere one stating what she did wrong, and stating the harm that she has caused me and for all that she is fully aware of that she did to hurt me and cause me harm. I told her that I can forgive her and move past this easily but not before the full apology and acknowledgement of everything I accused her of and I made some references as example of this very thing. To point out to her what was most harmful and hurtful to me that she never allowed me to say?
And a full apology as I said....would show a sing of good faith, and good will towards each other and as I worded it......"it won't kill you to do it, and it is not asking anything or demanding anything that is not within her power nor that she is not capable of...as any 1rst grader could do in exactly the same way.....so this is not unreasonable of me to ask or even to demand of her a s sing of good faith and good will.....but it's absolute and mandatory....and I wanted it in writing. I told her she has a time limit or expiration date on it too, and nothing will happen and I will not budge or respond to anything she's requested without the written apology?
As I mentioned before.......I never heard an apology ever come from my father at any time, to anyone ....ever in his life. Not once, did I hear an apology.....so in my thinking, if it quacks like a Duck.......then that's what it is. D has cornered me into so many situations where I had nothing but bad choices left to make since what she was requiring was impossible.......no one could do it without some harm to themselves and they were completely unreasonable request to make. And it you said no...she would ge all upset. And if you said Yes.....then this made her happy. Happy to know, that I was suffering and in pain from doing her bidding.
But before, during and after....came the usual berating, innuendo, devaluing statements and the like....all the weapons a covert aggressive person uses to "chide" "ridicule" "berate" and "devalue you" to do what they want and demand from you. and then give you their version of "this is what Love is to me".
What I've come to learn from a long time in learning this.......what the worst thing you could do to them is....the very things they are threatening or accusing you of doing? Or the very thing they are doing to hurt you is....the worst thing you could do to them? Which in so many strange and bizarre ways that make no sense what so ever.....some of these "things"....the "worst possible thing" are so innocuous and so meaningless and petty, that you wouldn't even think of them yourself? Like Gee...'what's the big deal"
Well apparently......saying "I'm sorry and giving a real apology and owning your mistake, znc then telling the other person how you hurt them and giving them that " like a gift with no strings attached to it.......is almost impossible if not impossible for a Sociopath to do? Someone who "thinks" along these lines and like the the one speaking in the first person from a "Narcissists" point of view?
And the worst possible thing you can do to a full blown Narc / Sociopath.....is put them in a corner and speak the undeniable and irrefutable truth.and then leave them no way out of no was to retaliate or rebuke, rebut or to come back and try and weasel out of it if you closed all the doors and locked all the windows and left them only one alternative but to say "I apologize" I mean, it could come in any form or any way even not done well or very good, but an apology and the though behind it is all that really matters? How difficult or hard, is that to do especially when all the evidence sitting there before you and you are caught red handed with no where to go? And all you have to do is apologize and come down or step down below you and ask for forgiveness? And you get a free pass after that?
And the thing is....if it was me, and that was the demand or requirement......I would, or could do that in a heart beat.....no sweat or no big deal? If that was the one and only demand made of me, that would be a walk in the park and easier than all get out to do? Like what? Is that all your want from me or all that is required? Shit.......your easy.....I could do that even if I didn't feel sorry, just to do it but it wouldn't be sincere. To sincerely apologize it requires the other elements but I could still do it easily .....no problem, no contest .....easy breezy and I would mean it at the end of it.
So now, here I am.....9 days later, and not a word. Not one word......no response.....nothing.........silence....,............no reply? I pretty carefully crafted what I said ...and I was fighting fire with fire and returning the same thing back.....but all those accusations are real ones and are directly and accurately tied and connected to everything she did do and all the evidence I could find . As truthful and accurate to being real.....with some embellished projections of my own and with a few of the same inlcuded as what she is likely to do..and my fears of it because of the pattern and profile of a Sociopath and even bringing my father in as a reference to give my back ground in case......a judge or someone else might read it, which pretty much outlines everything I know with example, evidence and comparisons to complete the picture for anyone else who might read it someday. It makes some bold accusations which I am not even sure are all true....but the point of the matter, my demand is simple........
PLEASE APOLOGIZE, AND IF I'M WRONG ON THE DETAILS......IT REALLY DOESN'T MATTER. I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU CALL IT....YOU STILL HURT ME AND NEVER ACKNOWLEDGED ME AND NOW I'M DEMANDING AN APOLOGY...BEFORE WE TAKE ONE MORE STOP FORWARD OR DISCUSS ANYTHING YOU HAVE TO SAY.
And I purposefully change my language to the authoritative on prupose as well. You must.......you will.......I demand.......you have no choice. As I stated it.......I have full control now, you have none. I will decide and let you know, I am the decider over what you will get from me but only if......you apologize. Those are my conditions, you haver no other options and no choice in this matter.
I effetely closed and locked all the doors and windows and left only one way out and that was through me. And the only Toll....or payment I required was an "apology for......................." and I listed it in detail, exactly what for and why? That's it......it won;t kill her will it? It wouldn't kill me and it probably would kill you? In fact, if that is all that is required then shit......how easy is that as just a sign or show of good faith all things considered? I mean, it nothing really but very important to me only? It's a reasonable thing to ask and it not that big a deal. As a demand or a requirement that is.....just between her and I and no one else?
It's difficult to know what someone is capable of doing or what they might do if confronted with a situation like this? All I know, is what I know...and what I know scares me to death at times.....when I see something that I know is real, and then now that person has me in their sights. It is fear....that I feel......and it's a deep down morbid fear of something very real and threatening that there is no way I cannot see it or feel it or not know what that is now. It's a look, it's a feeling and it's just a sense you get....that feeling is telling you something and it ain't good that's for sure. All I know is, I kicked D out of my home 9 days ago when I got a "pronounced hit" and that "hit" scared me to death.....and all I felt was fear not hatred in the presence of something very unsavory.
Call it what you like, or call it intuition but I had that one before.....and I know what that was? The Devil is in the details as they say......and this one has a name and I know what that is. 9 days, and I haven't heard a single word or reply? That's kind of unusual....for someone who lacks so much patience any other time? One might think.
All I demanded was an apology, what's so difficult or hard about that to give to another person. For any reason really? What's the big deal?
Check Mate........( fucking A )
J
Narsissist
Submitted by jennalemone on
When I read this, Hopeful Heart, I realize that the author knew someone JUST like my H. Every word seems to me to be what H's attitudes and perspectives have been. He even said the words early in our relationship, "I love you not for what you are but for what I am when I am with you." He thought that was romantic or that I would be pleased to be pleasing to him but in my gut I knew that it did not feel good to have that said to me. Hopeful Heart, do you by any chance know the author of that article if you remember where you found it? I realize that many people have various levels of narcissism in them. I have never seen narcissist described like this so spot on to my H. It didn't occur to me that he is getting pleasure out of hurting me...like C, I can't even imagine that. But reading what you wrote, they may be on to something. I am going to ponder that and be aware to look for that in H. I would like to know more about it. As I have said before, it is better to accept some sad truths than to be hopeful but continually disappointed and confused. I had been trying to converse with H to understand so that I could "help" H and partner WITH him. He has not given me much of himself to know or space to partner with. The article you supplied says that a narcissist does not want you to "know" them...that they believe sharing intimacies is stupid and vulnerable. I thought love was all about being able to be vulnerable. Wow. H and I are SO not a match.....for me. I am more and more knowing and accepting some sad truths. I don't know that ADD is in any way connected. Maybe the connection here is that the people who are on this site are looking for reasons and help with a spouse who is difficult to partner with....and that does seem to be a similarity in both ADHD and narcissism.
I think this is the link to
Submitted by Hopeful Heart on
I think this is the link to the article, plus one more that also rings true for me.
https://psychcentral.com/blog/relationships/2016/03/what-it-means-when-a-narcissist-says-i-love-you/
https://iheartintelligence.com/narcissist-love/
If you're interested
Submitted by Chevron on
Thanks, Hopeful Heart
On seeing that a therapist, not a Narcissist writing about him/herself, wrote that letter that you excerpted for us, I was curious about her. Her name is Dr. Athena Staik. She has a practice in Virginia. She doesnt mention either ADHD or Narcissism in her list of therapeutic specializations, but she definitely has an online commitment to writing about it. She produced about 30 articles, some on the subject, for Psych Central last year, which is a big time commitment, given that she also has a practice. She does Skype counseling, if anyone is interested.
Dr. Athena Staik....
Submitted by c ur self on
I looked at her web site...I tried to read that article again, but, it just started making me mad....The refusal to communicate, the refusal to attach, the control, the living like she is single,, the refusal to own her actions...It's just all to personal for me....I guess I am negatively impacted more than I want to admit or realize.....I've called her actions denial for 9 years...If I knew she thought like that article describes....I don't know what I would I do....Leave for sure....
I know this one thing....She has really hated that she has lost her puppet (My 38 year old daughter called me a door mat, that made my eyes get wide..LOL..)....She was putting something on our calender yesterday....Her plans to cut out to Nashville to watch the eclipse...She said about two sentences to me.....That her friend said we could stay at their house Sunday night....I didn't say anything....But to today I sent her a text that just said, it would be unwise to leave town together, until be can get it right in our everyday life, Not learning from our past just continues to cost us, all the conflict.....She lives her life unapproachable... she must control or attempt to control everything, her way or no way....Not only have I stopped enabling it...I'm learning to not even speak about it....
I think she will leave before she makes an effort to do the work in the marriage...(If it's not in your heart to love it's hard to fake it for long) If she don't I probably will at some point if there is no change.....
There is nothing I can say or do to change one thing about her....All I expect from my self at this point is to manage my life quietly and kindly toward her an everyone for that matter....Talking or pointing out her behavior has only produced what that article describes....That article makes my skin crawl....
C
Chevron, thank you so much
Submitted by Hopeful Heart on
Chevron, thank you so much for looking this up.
This article seemed to evoke a lot of hurt and anger in some of us. Is it because the article makes it seem that the abuser's actions are intentional? Or is it because the words in the article force us to clearly see the extent to which we've been used and disregarded?
Hi, Hopeful
Submitted by Chevron on
Hm, well other people would have their say, and I think some did, about the chord that Dr. Staik's fictionalized letter from a Narcissist struck with them. You ask a good pair of questions.
Since clinical grade Narcissists are often described as masking, in order to look good to others, my reaction wasnt one of upset, but curiosity. Dr Staik at the top of her letter article made it clear that a Narcissist hadnt written it and that she addressed it to people (in general) in a codependent relation with a Narcissist.
Of course she couldnt violate professional standards and publish anything that her particular clients had privately written. So the letter is fictional but shows what she thinks about Narcissists and about relations with one.
Have you seen Melissa's blog entry on Narcissism and ADHD? If not, its worth a look.
Jenne...............It Takes Two, It's Not a Marriage
Submitted by kellyj on
This was a difficult thread to read through especially revisiting all those thing said through the eyes of a Narcissist. When you read all these tell tales signs and look for them both in the past and currently is can be confusing and even make you doubt that is very well my you? What it does is bring up the past but seeing that as something I've forgiven myself for but do not completely want to to forget it or forget what I've learned. When confronted directly with what you're describing, always makes me look at "me first, it must be me" and then anyone else second. It is my trained response but that is the effect of this things mentioned here as well. As well as you picking up and or mimicking these things yourself once you get co-dependently untwined? Dependency, independent, co-dependent, and the one you didn't mention "interdependent".
Trying to be "interdependent is a constant fight when someone is attempting to take your independence away and make you dependent. Make you dependent, in an unhealthy way. This is what this is all about anyway with anyone here or who comes here looking for the answers to the same things. How do you do this in the face of something "abnormal". And truly, if someone is volunteering up their independence on a plate and just handing it over to the other person willingly, then there is something to be said about a "dependence" problem on their end of the deal? I've had that component in there and many of the other things mentioned in Hopefulhearts post on Narcissism. These behaviors appear at times I think for different reasons but they are fundamentally the same on the receiving end and this is what I am so troubled over. I'm am guilty of behaving like this at different points in time. As well as now in the bits and pieces that have come out here. I might make a note that I was feeding and bouncing these same things D while she was here and we both were acting these things out together and it was very difficult to keep track of the changes that were happening.
It was the next conversation I was going to have with my T, but paying attention right now to the changes is something I'm paying attention to? I'm doing this to to keep in mind how I was before I met D....and reminding how I had got back to where I started from the anything changes and differences I see at the end. I have bascially returned back to the starting place, and my starting place from the get go was someone who was interdependently minded or had that in their thinking? It was confirmed that this is what I kind of had in my own vision of what I might like to imagine.....which is simply a co-operative attitude towards doing things in general. Less of keeping track, and more of just everyone taking care of everyone? At least that was always my idea of a good working couple or family.....but I have never had a good example of it ( while living there for a while ) to know how to get there or even know how to it properly aside from just doing it but without all the things that prevent this from happening? It is what I tried once again, to instill or promote, but that went no where and never even got to be on the table truly. I was two steps behind even getting to breaking even. Being off guard and off balance all the time, makes it difficult to do anything together without some kind of a problem. And never getting anywhere near getting closer to what you all are saying. It's the hard part for me to hear, but I know this is my part in it.....to the degree of what is there with my awareness of it none the less. Getting hit full on with this to the point of disconnect......disconnecting, tuning out and shielding yourself from this tyep fo thing, looks and probably feels the same going the other way for sure. When I say them, I say me when I'n not balanced for sure. That "being unbalanced" in the first place, it what brings these things out? At least for me, they can come and go and mostly ...it comes from being out of balance. When I am in control of it, these things are no longer a problem as long I keep control of it.....but the people I'm with definitely have an effect on this and that effect can be quite profound as I have and just did come and I experienced it in what I've just experienced.
I think interdependence is really my goal still if I have one but it departs from some of the thinking of "traditional marriages" for sure. It may be that with ADHD, we need this type more than others? It is the need to be "independent" and have some healthy dependent "bonds" with the other person. For me., when I bond with someone I have a difficult time disconnecting but any more I think I just bond well and fully and commit to them easily. In part, and there's more to it, but that is what it feels like? I'm kind of a loyal friend until I've discovered they weren't my friends? There is no need to hold dear the image of something that never exhibited is hanging on to an illusion and needs to be updated in your head to make you current? More of "that" as I've come to find is never ending. LOL
Anyway, I'm wrestling with much of this right now, but how being away for a short period of time, has showed me how affected I had become and how this entire topic of "independence"....and "dependence" really come into the play. The under lying agenda or even unconscious motivations are really both troubling and quite telling for me to see where I stand? Somewhere down the line but not completely out of the woods. Balance is good though. It is my ultimate goal for myself or with anyone that has never changed. Knowing why it doesn't work....is a good thing to know aws well.
And mostly? Those friends filtered out a while ago, and the ones who were more interdependent remained? It's seems how it works and why I think it can work with the right person? A key elemant is it takes two in all of this?
I think that's your "balance"
One other thing I would like to point out Jenna....
Submitted by c ur self on
I must beware of Control...Most of my frustrations and stress is built around the concept of non-acceptance of my W's reality....I know I've made it a point for at least a year or two to write about "Acceptance of Reality"....Why? Why do I do that? It's because of this exact thing...Control!!...My tendency to push past (want to change another person by my efforts) the feelings generated in me that come about by her non participation in healthy life issues, of two being one....The things that every intelligent (not in denial) and wise person would say she should be responsible for, and accountable to....
But when I'm totally honest with myself....I find my peace only goes out the window when I allow my mind to get to busy "Thinking" what I'm missing in life because of my W's lack of commitment to me....Nothing I can do or think will change that...Nothing I can do or think will change her against her will....
But, I find out everyday when I busy my mind with to much of her realities....I'm the loser that day (lose of peace) at my own hands....She has nothing to do with it....What is happening in those time is...I am just refusing mentally and psychologically to accept the fixed state she lives in each day.....See I can type a list of dysfunctional things that is part of her reality....Most everyone on here can, and we do from time to time LOL>..But, nothing about the list will ever be a positive influence or a means to change the person the list identifies.....But, the person making the list is probably suffering because they have learned to abhor the list, instead of accepting it's as a fixed thing, that is just as fixed as our won lists.....
I lose site of my own life way to often, just because my focus is directed at her life style and my disdain for it....It's like this....When my first wife passed from this life at age 49....Over the next few weeks on more than one occasion I would drive right past where I was going....And on one occasion I pulled into a grocery store parking lot, lost!....I literally had to stop and say...Now where was I headed!...Scary a little, right?....The mind is an amazing thing....But, we only have so much capacity in our minds in any given moment of time....If I allow my mind to stay locked onto any issue (our spouses actions) then those dominate thoughts will impair me from my own reality....
This is what gaslighting is all about, at least in part in my opinion (for what that is worth) anyway.....Gaslighting is mostly self inflicted....It happens when my mind is so overwhelmed by thoughts that I in part become those thoughts....When that is happening all other important things that deserve my full attention (Jesus, family, job, etc. etc..) get only an impaired attention and focus. Even our own care suffers....How many times have you been told or heard people on this forum encourage spouses w/ dysfunctional living mates to take care of themselves.?? There's a reason for that...It's self blindness that comes for this type of concentration on any given subject...Especially when it's an unhealthy subject....I know, because to often I'm a product of this reality....
Anyway.....Control has many disguises and wears many masks......But it is a very destructive illusion, and the easiest to fall into, because it prey's on our weakness; (being human)....It's the serpent in the Garden of Eden, it's subtle and seductive and has us in it's clutches before we become aware of it.....
C
Control or Power or Both ?
Submitted by kellyj on
You know C...as I read what you said, I heard my mothers voice repeating something she always use to say to me and repeated it many times......"Absolute power, corrupts absolutely". Is it "control" that is the key element or is it the need or thirst for power? I was just thinking about what you said and I immediately ( as I am ) applying to me but my first thoughts are as an Artist or even in swimming or any physical thing like that? I mean, it;s all about control and controlling yourself and what you have to work with isn't it? Control in it and by itself is not a bad thing or even bad at all? A Ballerina or a musician or anyone one of many performing ways, that control is everything, without control you'd have no ability to do anything like this? Over anything phyisical?
I've even got a sign on my wall I found at the Goodwill that says " #1 Alpine Rule.........stay in control" it was a boundary sign or marker they put out on ski slopes to remind people to ski in control sinse, they are a threat to themselves or anyone else if they don't. Not that hard to figure out either once you have out of control people crashing into from out of no where. LOL Been there too....mostly on the receiving end but I've had my fair share coming from the other direction ...both. crash!! LOL
So this has me thinking about this as you were talking about a "control" and how can "control" turn bad? Personal control of "self" is good....as is it is with all these things I mentioned. Personal control .....of other people or with people........that's when it goes bad. When you are in charge of other people and are attempting to get "people" to do what you want, to move, change direction or do things you want them to do.......that's where it gets sketchy? I think it;s the perversion or corruption of the this sense of power you get....when you learn you can manipulate and control other people, to get them to do what you want.....is where this goes all wrong. I don't have kids so this kind of flew on by me there too.
I'm really good at controlling and manipulating "things". Give me some wood, some metal, some wire and some glass or any material thing...and I can do all kinds of things with things......it is what I do. LOL People.......not so much. I'm a mediocre sales person, I'm not a strong authoritative boss or manager, and I'm in general a pretty reluctant leader all said and done. I'm a better coach in that respect since coaches are expected to bark orders at you or to the group so that makes that pretty easy to define. If you don't like that ....then you can't play on a team or in any capacity where you have a coach coaching you? But that's not a manager or boss, and coaches don't need to be "polite" and are not necessarily expected to have any real bedside manner up to a point.
So this kind of control or anything bad you might have to say here....is all about "people". Controlling other people or getting them to do what you want? That's the only time control can go "bad" I think. Other than that, the more control the better for yourself that is? Just a thought about control...and how it can go bad?
J
I'm talking about a different kind of control J.....
Submitted by c ur self on
(You know C...as I read what you said, I heard my mothers voice repeating something she always use to say to me and repeated it many times......"Absolute power, corrupts absolutely". Is it "control" that is the key element or is it the need or thirst for power?)
I view power and control as common in one sense; if you have power over me, you can control me to a degree...The only difference I see is power is something attainable in some avenue's of life, that isn't always a bad thing.....And the things you pointed out about controlling inanimate objects is also not a bad thing....
It's simple really.....I can observe her living of life...The way she communicates; the things she makes important; the way she prioritizes all things...And that is who she is....that is who we all are.....Nothing really needs to be said....But that isn't good enough for me....Because I don't want to accept it....I don't want to believe what I see....I want it to be different....Any time we want to give a person something they don't have, against their will, that is the illusion of control... When we observe a person's daily choices, decisions and living of life, and come to peace with it, then that is acceptance...
To fully accept her, means I have to give up on what I want from the marriage relationship (her) that she isn't giving....I have no problems accepting people that I'm not personally invested in...It's the one's I love, care about, and the one's I want a healthy attachment with that I have trouble accepting....
C
C.....Control, And What You Said
Submitted by kellyj on
Taking the opportunity I have right now to reflect and look back and shake things out a little, and look and see what falls through the cracks and falls on the floor....so to speak. I think these are moments of clarity to remind yourself of what you already learned and take inventory of everything at glance once you stand back and take another look. I really believe that this is one of the best times to be the honest with yourself and be you best own critique as well. Accepting has a lot to do with what you believe so changing false beliefs and changing your thinking or how you see things can really take hold if you use this opportunity. It will change soon enough on it's own anyway which I have found is to be expected....but is also why these windows can really be useful in a way to make some real changes as needed.
From what you said, I remembered something as a really big deal for people with ADHD......"Personal Agency" or "Self- Efficacy" and "Perceived Control", which lead me for the first time to the concept of "Locus of Control". As you were saying this so eloquently...about how "she" ( your W ) see's things and arranges her reality and who she is based on this very thing. There are " fundamental " beliefs we have, that can become fixtures as a basis for everything else but this is not just a concept or theory....these real ways of "seeing things" from a perspective and perception that creates an entire "reality". I truly believe that people with ADHD do not start with these beliefs and they do come from somewhere. The other aspect tied to "self efficacy" was was tied to interpersonal ( relationship ) agency which amounts to support or help from outside sources ie: other people in all relationships but most related here, in close intimate relationships.
I stumble across this article investigating this relationship for student with ADHD, but I think I can use this to express something that I've come to understand which are big reasons for this idea or concept of "different realities" and possibly a fundamental difference in what you believe. Or willing to accept depending on what you believe which is really where this comes from or what you learn? If the first thing you think, then becomes automatically true, then it's difficult to go back and change everything you did wrong from there? Sort of ? It's where this idea of "closed" or "open" minded comes from too I think?
But it was really easy for me to look at that article about school children with ADHD....and want to join in or weigh in with an opinion since I could quickly agree or disagree as to any findings they come up with. If I was speaking to recommendations board for school curriculum, I'd be the first one to admit and recommend " oh, yeah, ADHD kids are kind of a pain in the ass, and they need some special or alternative classes that are set up differently to accommodate them or aid them, or assist them...........blah blah blah.......with their special needs. In other words, needs that are not necessary or necessarily "absolutely needed".....for student without ADHD. In fact, the findings say so based on the results. Yes, Absolutely....no question, without a doubt. A different or separate set of lessons or classes based on how people with ADHD learn would be ideal and you would probably reduce or correct this issue right from the get go. Nothing more to be said?
In fact, all I had to do was Google "Self Efficacy" and up pops a list already made up for us? How convenient? LOL
Tips to improve self-efficacy for struggling students
Use moderately- difficult tasks. ...
Use peer models. ... Interpersonal Agencies, friends, Siblings, peers at school etc.....
Teach specific learning strategies. ...
Capitalize on students' interests. ...
Allow students to make their own choices. ...
Encourage students to try. ...
Give frequent, focused feedback. ...
Encourage accurate attributions.
I mean, this is simply a no brainer for me to immediately agree with. All of it, not problem understanding why that is and why this is so important. The problem is you don;t get that and that's where it starts. From the failures of struggling or fighting up against something real there is no moving or it never changes, it's easy to give up or look for other alternatives? This is where you power to begin with I think really comes into play. This is possibly where a child will learn that "power over" other people will gain them advantage of some kind. If you have no power like this available......you default to where you can find it? Either outside of you or inside of you depending on the demand or the path of least resistance. The problem with the path of least resistance comes when you have no "moral agency" or a belief in something other than your own means or your own resources for everything you will ever get.
And from that thinking and thinking in terms of power.......you can't abuse power you don't have, and attaining power "over" ability if you belief is simply " with an “external locus of control” generally believe that their successes or failures result from external factors beyond their control, such as luck, fate, circumstance, injustice, bias, or teachers who are unfair, prejudiced, or unskilled.
None of this is difficult for me to understand. I can put these things together and go....or course, how obvious......looking back over the course of my lifetime. I have or had had all these beliefs at some point in time.....if I've completely changed from that to something else at this point in time..and some of it is firmly in my awareness and my own understanding. There is a gap, and it can be filled, and these things are learned....or not....but they are necessary without question for someone with ADHD.....for control of our selfs.......bottom line. We need something else, that others don't need and depending on how you see this, will change your opinion or feelings on the subject. It's the abuse of it......the excess or the parts that are "unnecessary" and weeding out what isn't....from what is and boiling down to one consise a"need"...and summing this all up?
People with ADHD are a royal pain in the ass at times which I resemble that statement and then some. But the type of problem or how that is is narrowed down to just me since I have my own brand of ADHD and all that goes with it? What I can say is that I've learned "not to be intrusive" on an impersonal level as much as I was able? I simply made due with what I had to work with and learned that "not making people angry" or not to be intrusive was very acceptable so that was what I focused on. Which mental controlling myself, and focusing inward on that? I really had no other options available to me........I mean , shit rolls down hill and when you're at the bottom then you got very little power!! LOL It's difficult to control or bully the little brother or sister you don't have? LOL Imaginary friends don't count, they'll do anything you tell them to do and they don't fight or argue?" LOL You could also include your imaginary "spouse" in there which is in part what I hear you saying too? You know, the one you always "dreamed of" before you met your current spouse now? LOL That is to admit from my own "made up spouse"...I use to have in my thinking or "dreams"....that is, before I was ever married and then got there and went......"you don't belong here.......who are you?" and then immediately want them out the door since......they belong here? I mean.......what?
I think what is shaking out for me in all that I've just learned is to simply the need to learn and identify some things that I was never taught or was able to learn by myself "on my onw by myself" but really intuitively and quite obviously....driven to make contacts and mingle and socialize with other people and to learned from them. I learned so much, by just being around or exposed to different people in a range of situations and different locations and just moving around a lot and making the rounds.what this all is and where the source of the problems that come from this and how to change or make corrections. Literally everything I know I've learned from other people aside from what I;ve read or experienced myself.
It is what you believe deep down on a fundamental level that makes the most significant and long lasting changes and are some of the most difficult to see? I mean truly, if you based your entire world view off of one of these fallacious beliefs that aren't true but true only for you? You're entitled to your own opinion but you're not entitled to your own facts.....even if they don't fit into your story, what ever that it is right?
And all of this for me is useful to help me see these things. it helps explain to me what I see is different from the majority of people, not just a select slice of the pie or your source and teachers of what you believe? These parts that shake out of this after all the time and everything I've manged so far .....are no different than whey were from the get go. That's how I can tell what's really "real" and the actual bonifide "challenges" that exist and I have to something about it. Different than what most other people need to do? That's nothing knew and that's not a problem? The problem without question and there is no denying it here with you C.........being Gaslighted, and running gauntlent and land mine field is not for the weak of heart or mind!! Those "tactics" as that video mentioned and his one comment that really really stuck and resonated was " they all seem to go to the same school " since the tactics are all te same and the ones used.
I have to say, I was getting these "de ja vou" hits...where I would stop and pause and look from side to side and behind me. lol "I have been here before..". Yes, most definitely, and that is the "freakiest" part about this since it's in different people completely and totally unrelated in any other way.....other than using these same exact strategies and techniques that are amazingly predictable once you understand it and you are aware of it, it still effects you and it just wears down. By design, since it is by design, to get some kind of aid, support, comfort, help, blah blah blah you know the list? It is an entire realty or way of thinking with a foundation anchored in one of these harbors I think? Getting someone to up anchor and move to a different port is not my job or even to do. It really hist me in the face being on the opposing end of this but beyond that and more importantly is the effect that it has on you C. I think I'm doing Okay on the "sociopathic" end of it but there is a overlapp in some symptoms for for a completely different reason? None the less, it's still intrusive and that the biggest thing I really learned. Intrusion....or even being aggressive or always jumping the gun and are ten miles ahead and your just a pain in the ass which is only a problem for other people and less a problem for you. Simply put. It makes it easier for me to see what shakes out and what is left for me to keep in mind as "things I have to do cause I have ADHD" list. LOL It's never ending but you only need to learn it once and then it's just a habit and you don't have to think so much, so hard and remember so many things which is really difficult. I did read somewhere that a good strategy was to always have things in the same place and organized that way which was nice to hear since that's what I'm doing and it's always worked for me? Hard to do with someone sabotaging you though.....very frustrating and time and energy expending that's for sure.
Anyway....that little cluster of things I remember reading up on before and understanding these two different kinds of "locus of control"....is a simple one that stuck and I completely understand it? I've gone from one...to the other and back and forth and fews times if not more!! More to the internal locus of control for me.....but there are down sides to that as well? It's just nice to know where and who you are so you can see the person in front of you as close to as they really are, not who we want them to be. I'm really seeing this more than ever and it has everything to do with this little group or concepts and theories that I would have to concur with whole heartedly myself as things I can look at and keep in the fore front of my thinking?
Students with an “external locus of control” generally believe that their successes or failures result from external factors beyond their control, such as luck, fate, circumstance, injustice, bias, or teachers who are unfair, prejudiced, or unskilled.
Very interesting stuff J....
Submitted by c ur self on
This locust of control internal external is interesting, I've never heard the term....regarding it, based on what you say here, and what I just read about it on Google. What must be considered or what seems to be missing with both types is "Respect for others",....If I have an internal locust of control (which I do, and which is what my previous post was about...Recognition and guarding against falling into the trap of it) then I must be able to own my attempts (keep them visible and above board) to influence others, and never hide it...If my attempted influence is based on what I would call "good", then I shouldn't need any underhanded or pressure tactics....But, when there is pain involved, we must be careful to not press where we aren't being heard or where we aren't wanted....That is what I was saying in my post about "beware of control"......
When you think you can SEE the answer....Or you have lived the answer in your past...It's tempting to fall to the illusion you can sell it!....And you can to a HEARER (this will work calmly w/ no pressure)....But never to a CLOSED MIND..:)....(this will be full of conflict...force feeding always is).....So c ur self....beware....never do it.....
My wife is very internal.....She wants to force her will on most everything....But when all it does is create trouble....She flips the switch to external....What? Who me?....No, No, It could never be my fault....I'm the innocent victim....Be nice C....LOL......
C
It is What You Say.......C
Submitted by kellyj on
The internal external thing is just a tendency to lean to one or the other but I do both as well as everyone I think but it's more of a problem for me and why I keep looking. I have my closures too but openly I got a better idea where to look in the future. The most difficult thing of all it seems is hearing what someone might say as an opinion or what they see, and trusting that it correct or is it something else instead. I'm really good at becoming invisible and silent but that's really a prison or repression all by itself. Knowing where other peoples boundaries are or worrying about going too much , too high, or too big.....when your silent and invisible isn't a problem, know what I mean? LOL I do like the middle though, always have. It suits me just fine as long as I can find it, :)
J
Independence or Partnership...
Submitted by MrsADD on
Well said. My H is this type of person. I love that article too. Very hard to read and I am guilty of a codependent personality which enables the narc so am working on that within myself. I don't think consciously any person would act this way, but he does behave this way and I think it does feed a pleasure of his deep down and drives his actions.
As this sight preaches we only have the ability to change that which we can control, ourselves. Melissa's book has helped me with dealing with the ADHD I encounter of the distractible kind. Boundaries, tools, resources etc... As for the Narc portion, I think narcissism and adhd have similarities but are not the same. The hard part is if you truly have both in one person. This article was like reading a snipit of my last 8 years in my marriage the only thing that has helped me so far are these pieces of advice I read in another Narc article: "the only way to deal with a Narc is to THINK don't FEEL" feeling is where we jump on the Narc's boat. I can tell you this is very hard for a nurturer like me. But when I employ it I come out alive and sane. And between the tools and boundaries, I am now setting, the work on myself, and the think don't feel tactic I am actually seeing a more grown up side of my H taking responsibility at least in the parenting sector of our relationship. It is not consistent but it is more than they have had in the last 5 years. He said today about my youngest (3 yr) "she is really starting to bond with me lately" (think don't feel) I said "yes" that is because in the last 3 months you have been parenting more and spending time with her. Kids need to spend time with you to trust you and bond with you. He was silent (light bulb).
I doubt our marriage will last. I am making my plans to move forward with my life. I have given the ultimatum that I need certain things to change and it needs to be done with guidance from a therapist if I am to stay in the marriage and he needs to lead that mission so I don't get gaslighted with "you picked a bad therapist" etc... because yes this has already happened, including being accused of saying stuff behind his back when he failed to show up to an appointment.
Good luck (to both of us).