My husband who has ADD, and I were speaking this last weekend and I felt like we peeled a layer back worth sharing. I was telling him that the only way I have found not to have an argument with him is when: 1) I don't speak or 2) when I don't ask him or REMIND him (because he already agreed to do it) to do anything. Here is what he said, please note I SO VERY MUCH appreciate the honesty from him (because it is rare):
Responsibility makes me feel like you are "Putting Something On Me" and that makes me feel "Attacked".
It feels like an "Attack" because I want/need him to do something even though he DOESN'T WANT TO DO IT.
Feeling "Attacked" makes him feel he needs to Defend himself from what I am trying to "Put On Him" or Avoid it all together. A traditional Fight or Flight response.
The whole thing is just a "Burden" that he doesn't want.
Then we talk about what he feels are different types of responsibility and he shares his view:
1. Responsibility that someone "Picks Up". They typically want to control the situation so they "pick up" the responsibility in order to control it.
2. Responsibility that is "Given". This is responsibility the persons wants and seeks. Ex. If you do a good job at work, you receive more responsibility, a better position and more money. Reward based.
3. Responsibility that is "Placed On You". This covers all responsibility that is a burden that you don't want and someone hasn't picked up.
I feel so blessed that he was able to articulate this thought so clearly.
I believe, "We don't change TRUTH, TRUTH changes us". This is a hard truth to hear but it just confirmed what I already knew. He waits for me or anyone to PICK UP responsibility and if we don't, HE certainly WON'T. No way is he going to touch it with a 10 foot pole. He isn't that dumb as to put himself in a position to touch it because if he does he might own it and he isn't interested in owning any responsibility other than that with the reward is deemed worthy, in his opinion of his, efforts.
His goal is to not pick up or have responsibility placed on him. He is only interested in responsibility given to him at work (but not too much), just enough to keep his job and not advance. I know from reading on this forum - that is a huge something.
Does this sound like your spouse?
Well that is great weighted...Now for step two..:)
Submitted by c ur self on
I can really understand how pleased you were (thankful) to get him to admit his feelings about this issue....That is huge, it would be for us also....But, I have a question...LOL...What if you made a list of all the responsibilities that some one needs to "Pick up" in order for things in the home and in your personal lives to work....Then let him just put a check by what he is willing to pick up....and ask him to put an X by the things he thinks you should "pick up" ( or continue doing)....And tell him to just put a Y by all the things he thinks should be avoided by both of you...Make a very thorough and thought out list of life's responsibilities...And make sure sex gets put on it...
If you decide to follow up w/ seeking his opinion about this...I would love to know if he was willing to give you his thoughts concerning the "Who" or the "No One" of everyday living....
C
And tell him to just put a Y
Submitted by Chevron on
And tell him to just put a Y by all the things he thinks should be avoided by both of you...
I'd be interested In how my husband and I filled out your quiz, C
For us, there probably would be a fourth question, something like: put a Z by which tasks you do not care whether or not your partner does them? He/she can knock him/herself out or not, it makes no difference to me, and never will?
....In this area, one task area that for us at least, fits into that fourth, additional Z question are all the subtasks that go into yard care. My husband has to some degree dealt with yardwork in the past, he has never cared for it, hasnt learned about it, and it so displeases him that it is entirely off his task list. To his credit he has been very explicit about what I've just said, up front. He's also telling the truth that he enjoys at times the fruit of yardwork...green spaces, flowers, nice places to sit out, but not the sweaty, monotonous, etc work of the yard itself. But here's the thing, he would give me no grief at all, none, if I entirely acted like he does. He really is not in a campaign to get me to slave to do what he has determined long ago that he wont do. We could be living in a kudzu jungle with tendrils crawling into the house and he wouldnt bat an eye or whine at me to do something to the yard.
So I had better take care of myself in this matter. In a way, it's freeing, if bottom line financial security, physical safety, the protection of kids, etc isnt involved. He DOESNT CARE about yardwork. Which is honest, and is a perfect little test of my old tendency to overdo caretaking for other people. Lol, I get to do what I want re the yard, without a worry.
If I give myself heatstroke mowing and weeding in 95 degree weather, my husband will let me knock myself out, without a peep. He doesnt care about yardwork even enough to notice me overdoing it in the yard. It's a perfect little gift for me to quit worrying about doing something for someone else, and do whatever I want to do.
...I'm not talking about shelter, basic cleanliness, food on the table, bills getting paid. He and I have to deal with those things. Neither of us can opt out on the basics.
Chevy....
Submitted by c ur self on
(For us, there probably would be a fourth question, something like: put a Z by which tasks you do not care whether or not your partner does them? He/she can knock him/herself out or not, it makes no difference to me, and never will?)
I was looking for accountability with the questions...(no wiggle room) we already know about the Z things; O O (my emoji for Big Eye's)....The Z things have made great Pen Pals out most of us.... LOL
I do understand your point though, and it's a good one....There will always be things that certain people make a project....(perfecting details, if you will) I suspect they usually enjoy it or they wouldn't do it...I'm probably like your husband when it come to yard work....I weed eat, cut, and blow the grass off....I will also trim the hedges when they get shaggy, remove briar's and poison ivy if it's growing up the side of the house or mingling in w/ the hedges....I also do the work in our small garden...But yard work isn't a "love it project" for me. Maybe because I've lived a busy life with many other hobbies, a job etc....Since I retired I do more...I fertilize the grass, keep the ant beds poisoned etc....I try to keep our grass pretty and green....
Also I struggle to be as smart as your husband, and my wife, about some things....So I end up inheriting jobs along the way....For example: flowers on the deck and porches....From April to about mid June they are pretty and kept watered....But when the 90+ oppressive heat starts up...Like Now:)...Then it is harder for someone to go back out on a regular basis to water....So I hate to see them wilt and die...So I volunteer to help keep them alive....
subject change....
Has anyone saw the Hyundai commercial...The guy singing Sweet Caroline (loudly) as he is driving home from work in traffic, and a lady jumps in there and sings w/ him (of course she's in a Hyundai also) at a red light....I Love that commercial!:)...It's on the Major League Baseball channel a lot....I not sure if it's on other channels....
C
Accountability and the limits of caretaking
Submitted by Chevron on
Hi, C
I think your three categories do sort by accountability/responsibility.
The reason that for us (not for anyone other...other people, other personalities, other problems) there is a fourth category that I've thought over which is what to let go, including letting go of trying to get your spouse or wanting your spouse to do anything other than what he/she is doing and darn tootin' will continue to do or not do.
I raise my hand high and testify that I am a Recovering Codependent...I learned that in the last century when I went to Alanon, to figure out what on earth to do about a dating relation I was in in which the man I had begun to see fell spectacularly off the wagon. Hahaha I went to learn how to deal with him and discovered taht I had to learn how to deal with me being the fixer safetynet "strong one" of the couple, etc etc. And I sure was...Lordy I had been GROOMED to not have any other identity than being the "Helping Hands" when I was a kid.
So in my relation with my husband, there's more than ADHD in the mix. Did he pick me out because I'm resourceful, he thought sturdy, want to share, etc? Yes, probably, but he got me. And I am in the business of as Melissa's site says larning to thrive in this relation. Now if I'm going to thrive in THIS relation with this beloved man who yes has a classic set of ADHD behaviors, I am going to have to put some limits on myself and my picking up the slack for him. Look three categories of responsibility...the ones you listed, are more than enough for me. That he does some things for someone and something other than his wonderful self; that I do some things; and that neither of us ought to be doing. But for me that still leaves some life to live.
Where I'm at, to dangle a preposition, with the yard, is that he's been clear as a bell that he won't ever do the yardwork. He's been there, done that. Why in that case would I put myself through resenting him or harassing him, or raising my eyes to the heavens and thinking myself a victim or a saint if I did work that he didn't do. As I said, my fourth category cannot apply to the basics of life: somebody's got to work, somebody's got to buy food, somebody's got to pay the bills. I do not put that kind of thing into the fourth category. Those are shared responsibilities, and we've divided them up. I'm not doing them all. Nor will I do them all. He voluntarily contributes (I agree with vabeachgal, it has to come from within) actively in some of our shared responsibilities to do. He carries one now entirely on his own. Others (like cooking) we split.
But back to my fourth category...again its for us. I've discovered that there's some freedom to be had for me, if I just don't worry about what he'll do about yardwork. He's been clear. He is a very determined person. Why, if it's not necessary to our safety, shelter, sanitation, and so on, would I spend my emotional time, which is also part of my wellbeing, resenting him because he's being consistent with what he announced. To live as one doesn't mean always that both people have to split things or be Bobbsey Twins.
I totally admire the list of yardwork that you do. I know about growing stuff. We're living in a small house with a large yard right now, and I know the time it takes to do everything that you listed. Since I'm the one of the two of us in our house who knows anything about growing things and keeping things alive out in the yard.... in my present situation I do feel free to do what ever I please out there. With nary a resentment on my part of my husband. We're not living in the 50s (by far...) so my husband doesn't have to be Ozzie out there with a lawnmower. And I don't have to be Harriet in there in high heels and pearls, vaccuuming.
What I'm going to do about the yard is this: we're moving. Where we end up wont have a yard. I'm tired of the sweat work and the yard too large for my time, which long preceded our marriage. In our future, no yard to mow. I hope we end up with a little patio or something like that, where I will totally please myself with what I haven't had time to do because this monster of a yard has always required so much basic maintenance (again, long before my husband and I married) that I never get to the experimentation with things I've never grown before. I want to grow things, depending on what the region allows, like passionflowers, which I bet grow very well where you are, or hardy jasmine, to give us some sweet scent. I'm researching things right now, building some knowledge in my head about growing things where I think we're going to end up.
You see, I'm all for lightening the load, where I can. I figure, what's wrong with my husband having a strong antipathy to gardening and yardcare labor, if he is giving me full freedom, with no manipulation, tricks or resentment of me if I do exactly and only what I please in that area? Why not have some spots of not having to try to get my husband to do things?
Here are a few things that I really don't care what he does or doesn't do about. The inside of his car. Who cares? I used to be a little miffed that when we would go somewhere together there would be a pile in the rider's seat, but now I just push it off the seat and he decides where he wants to put it, I sit down and we go. I also have the same attitude about his private space. Since he's not carrying food in there and eating it, and so attracting bugs and/or mice in there, I really don't care, don't think about it and don't enter it. I'm as far into "I really don't care" about his interior car decoration as he is about the yardwork. Why not? There are plenty of other things in the world to occupy the "fuss" area of my mind.
What I've found out about what my husband really, really doesn't care about, that doesn't lead to unsafety, loss of shelter etc. is that there can be, at times, freedom for me to go ahead and do what I want and that's that. It's a rather nice little break from being tempted back into being an overcaretaker.
For us, where the work is, is not in category #4 (Z). We have plenty to tend to in your first three categories. But in some things, I think it's all right that he and I don't value things the same way, and we leave each other in peace.
I caught that Hyundai commercial. It was funny.
It's amazing Chevy....
Submitted by c ur self on
We are so much a like; I wrote two short posts, started to close my laptop and saw that you had responded...We were saying so much the same stuff about our tendency to co-dependence...You know, we have a Z category also....And it can really help with the reality of the check and X category....:)
As for as her car...I just peak in her windows, and turn and tell her to just jump in the truck, I'll drive...LOL...But I have gotten to the place I can set on her junk and let her rearrange to make room for me....If I just wasn't so scared of her driving OO...:)...She will whip that iPhone out....And I'm like, pull over I'm driving!! LOL.....
C
Put your own oxygen mask first...
Submitted by Chevron on
....wise man, to take the wheel, to make sure that you're bodily in one piece at the end of the trip.
: ) A good thing about not caring about what's going on in someone else's private space is that the question "where's my X" is dealt with much easier: "Gee, have you looked in your private space?" ....and then the cries and mutterings and crashings in there don't involve you.
Welcome to the forum,
Submitted by Chevron on
Welcome to the forum, weighted.
I admire the two of you for having been able to have this conversation. It's my guess that you asked whatever you did, in a non judgemental mode, or he otherwise knew that it was safe to give you the contents of his mind. That's no small feat with someone who reverts to thinking that he is being attacked. From what you reported, he told you his real beliefs, not a self protective version of them, and that's admirable, too.
I guess the next couples move will be what to do with what you've learned?
You asked if what you described sounded like my ADHD spouse. I took some time with your question. To answer you, a few details do, but it mostly doesnt. Our husbands have different ages (mine is likely several decades older than yours), possibly different family upbringings (mine and his sibs always had chores and he started working when he was 12, with an early am paper route that he was entirely responsible for), and different life experiences.
There are things in the marriage caretaking tt my husband wont do. Yardwork is one. But since work for the family and work to earn money was in his life from his childhood, he doesnt think he's a special snowflake unable to work or too elite to work. He doesnt do the minimum at his job. Early in the marriage and in figuring out that he had ADHD, I read the professional advice that when getting an ADHD person to carry more of the workload at home, have the person add tasks that are already in his/her skill set. There's a piece of that advice that I'm not keen on. I'm not my husband's manager or life skills coach, and I'm not his mommy. So the piece of it that would have me coddling, pleading, lowering the boom, doesn't work with me, and my husband is far from stupid, he knows and in fact overreads that someone is pushing him around, or could be. But the already in his skill set part of the advice has been workable for us.
Probably the biggest difference that jumped out at me is that listening to him, my husband doesnt equate responsibility with control. He equates it with service. Different folks....
Yes, this certainly sounds
Submitted by vabeachgal on
Yes, this certainly sounds like my husband. In fact, it was a very good description of what I've seen over the years. I've always felt this was the case but was unable to articulate well.
It explains quite a bit. Our perpetual argument is that he acts like he has a choice with responsibility whereas I don't (ie. waiting for someone else to pick up something and not touching it with a ten foot pole). It also explains why I felt it was deliberate (not so dumb as to do something that would cause him to own responsibility). It explains why he functions very well in some areas (he thinks it's worth his effort and he finds the reward to be rewarding enough).
I've heard those very words "you can't/don't put that on me"....exact words. It's irritated me because I'm not putting something on him, just asking him to accept minimum adult responsibility.
Looking back, I see a pretty clear pattern of him waiting for someone else to pick up something or complete avoidance.
It did not really occur to me how simple requests could be construed as an attack. Interesting. When I am in a position where I am told/need to accept responsibility, I feel a lot of things (uggh, this sucks, I wish I didn't have to....) but I don't feel attacked. This explanation also goes a long way to help me understand why I've felt so darn frustrated and angry. It was because he just wasn't going to pick it up - ever. A request doens't send me into fight or flight mode. It puts me in problem solving mode. Is this ADHD or a maturity issue?
I am now wondering out loud how much of this is ADHD versus oppositional behavior.
What to do? Does everything have to be re-communicating as a rewards based request? Ridiculous. One of the things we do with children is to try to instill an intrinsic motivation. That doesn't happen with no/not now thought patterns. Or is this simply a lifetime of toddler behavior? I don't want to and you can't make me.
I am now wondering out loud
Submitted by Chevron on
I am now wondering out loud how much of this is ADHD versus oppositional behavior.
Exactly.
Just asking him to accept adult responsibility
If my husband hadnt had to do chores as a kid (long before ADD and ADHD were a formal diagnosis), he started connecting taking responsibility with getting paid on that paper route at age 12 and then by his midteens was entirely out on his own and either worked or he didnt eat and had no shelter, I'm convinced that we'd have a very different home life
I dont think I can make anyone do anything, and that is sure true of my husband.
That is true of most people.
Submitted by vabeachgal on
That is true of most people. You have to work out why you can or must do things. It must be an internal motivation. Even a motivation that seems external must be in some ways internal. For example, I value having shelter more than I value the autonomy of not working. This is the dilemna so many face. We wonder HOW we are going to motivate someone to be a better partner or more responsible. We can't. We waste a lot of time on the efforts. Contorting ourselves, cajoling, rewarding, demanding ..... I'm at a point on this journey where I feel some methods and suggestions are not authentic because they are all about changing someone else's heart and mind. That needs to be initiated in the other party. In the meantime, we bend, sway and contort.
Anyway, I agree. If my husband's mother did not coddle him so much after his dad died or buy him things to soothe his emotions or choose not to hold him accountable.... if his long term LD teacher did not baby him .... if his siblings had not had such low expectations for him because he was the baby .... he may not have become a man who seeks and thrives on comfort and ease provided by others with poor life skills AND demand independence from a partnership at the same time. It all matters. You cannot unring a bell.
What "ODD" Feels Like
Submitted by kellyj on
The way I can tell if I'm experiencing an "ODD" attack, or having "ODD" times or "things" specfic to something else? It feels like "resistance" not "reticence" or "reluctance". And it's one of those things that the more you push against it...the harder it pushes back against you. The closer you get...the more force you have to "push" to "break through the wall" since......it's one of those "invisible walls" you can't see, can't explain, but yet it's there....almost like a "force field" that is "all resistance" and of course.......you do have a choice to make? It you do it "reluctantly"...with a "bad attitude"......that is where "passive aggression comes from" since......."you don't want to do it.....but you are being forced against you will" and that will lead to passive agression every time. "Mule headed" is a good word for that. Just like a Mule....the more you push or shove from behind, the more the Mule....won't cooperate.
And on that note.....leaving gracrfully is something I need to do as well here and not keep going and responding......but these really are the things that I need to look out for as well since that is defintiely in my repetoire.....and getting perspective in this case...is a good thing all things considered. And ODD seems to be "strong" with D......more so than me without a doubt. Stubborn is persistance gone bad after all?
J
Reality vabeachgal...
Submitted by c ur self on
Your little post did an excellent job of stating the reality as you've experienced it....It's been a process in my life....And it seems to be one for you, and so many others on this forum.....
C ur self has to live with the full understanding of his reality and the reality of his spouse.....The question I've been working on for at least 4 years now is....How do I accept it at a level that I don't "want" (emotion free) what isn't available, just because I feel it should be, and just because it's available to her, by me?? I am 100 times better than when I started this accountability journey; but; I definitely haven't mastered it....
C
too much on the non-Adhd spouse
Submitted by dedelight4 on
This is an interesting forum line. Weighted, my husband also is really only interested with what's put on him at work. (Almost to an obsession ) It's been that way since the day we got married. He was diagnosed ADHD 11 years ago at age 51. When I met him he had just finished his masters degree in music, but didn't have a full time job. At age 26 that's "old" to have never worked a day job. He always used the excuse "My father ALWAYS TOLD ME, NEVER WORKFOR ANYONE BUT YOURSELF, because you can't get ahead working for someone ElSE". Well, that sounds reasonable I guess, to some degree, but everyone has to CHOOSE something to work at. It doesn't just happen or appear. With his undiagnosed ADHD unorganized brain, he wanted to do EVERYTHING in music, he recently told me. (But that is unreasonable and unrealistic) He wanted to play in a band, have notoriety, money, mentor and teach, perform, etc. But, he was getting married to me, and needed a job. He got a job as a band director at a school, and was scared to death. But, his main degrees are in music education, NOT performance or theory, etc. He actually did very well at it, but he wasn't happy......at all. The ONLY thing he could think of was how UNHAPPY he was, and how much he hated doing this. He was consumed by this, and this continued for the next 30 plus years,no matter where he was. He was NOT a performer. He didn't have stage presence, or the skill to be a solo performer, and was unhappy about that
Anyway, everything else in his life fell "second place or lower" to this. He wanted us to have a house, when I knew we could not handle a house, but he demanded this regardless of what I said. I had to do the majority of work in and on the house, or all 3 consecutive homes. He doesn't DO yard work or such like the other men in our neighborhood, because he does everything half way. (Nothing gets finished) mowing half the lawn looks crazy, as well as painting half or a third of the house, or having our 2car garage be such a mess with his stuff, we haven't had a car in there for years.
I don't like constant mess, and it makes me terribly uncomfortable to ALWAYS have non stop mess with no break from it. If I don't clean something up, it doesn't GET cleaned. It might get "sort of" cleaned. You can't live in a cob webbed, piles of junk, computers and papers,clothes, and dishes stacked everywhere, and that just be okay. I don't want to have to "get over that", or learn to have to live with terrible mess, mold, etc. It's not healthy, for the first thing,and it's unsettling to not have a household in a working order. I understand, (after learning about it) that an ADHD person has limited executive functioning, and it takes a lot of work for them to formulate tasks. But, on the other hand, when the " tasks" are things they're interested in, they can focus and do them well and willingly. Those things, sadly,are not the daily grind things of living that MUST be done by someone. Again, the majority of these non "fun" things get put on the non ADHD spouse. It's an imbalance of work load, as well as a relationship imbalance. The non is the one doing the majority of learning about ADHD, dealing with it, taking patience and tolerance to new and even unhealthy levels, while the majority of those with ADHD either stay in denial, or are not being significantly treated for it. This can put enormous levels of extra everything on the non spouse. (Not your basic marriage)
Today's world is filled with so much MORE of everything stressful that our parents and grandparents never had to deal with, and add to that a brain dysfunction/hardship, and it can be almost more than our minds and hearts can comprehend. I think sometimes, we need to give ourselves a "break", and not believe, we can just " handle it all". A marriage is a partnership, which most ADHD marriages aren't. There ARE some good,even great adhd marriages, but sadly in the minority.
Even in marriages where both people have ADHD, one ends up having more responsibilities than the other, just from the basic necessities of living that have to be done. I sometimes wonder what do most ADHD folks think about this. DO they see the imbalance and just avoid it? Do they NOT see it at all? Are they happiest with little to NO responsibilities? Just how much do they comprehend or not? Just interested.
Dede.....An Interesting Day Yesterday
Submitted by kellyj on
Hi Dede.....I keep hanging around since things keep changing and I keep needing to update some things as I come to them. I have to go back and change this now....but in all the records I found from D's complete "phone" records....there was "one" person ( a man of our age ) that kept appearing at all times or the day and night and first thing in the morning.....that it seemed pretty clear to me, that D was possibly having an affair of some kind. It didn't really fit with anything I saw or knew but the fact is....the last "confrontation" we had ended badly and I can understand it from that position......why she might need some time to cool off however.....in the past we always "cooled off" rather quickly so this is still nothing I've seen with her and that does not "fit" with anything I've ever known or seen? Just a complete ...."cut off" ...from her everyway and no "words' coming from her to give me anything to go off of?
And this is directly relevant to what you are asking here and why? You are basically asking the same thing in a relative way? What's the thinking here? What's the big mystery or secret? I mean, you wouldn't be here asking if you knew and I'm in the same boat or was.....until I took it upon myself yesterday to call my personal search over and simply called her "friends" that I knew and took a load of her things over to their house since......I did for the first time a "phone tracking" on her phone just to see where she was? And it was funny and just coincidental that she was over at her friends house....not where she said she lived? But then later....her "phone" ended up at the address where she said she was???? This was really confusing but I had enough of checking up on her and seeing if she was telling me the truth. I figured...enough is enough......I needed to go to her friends ( and my friends too ) and simply tell them what I was doing, what I knew and what it looked like and see what they said?
And I talked to the husband first since he and I do have a relationship outside of theirs with D....and he at first was really dismissive of me, until I told him more and why I was thinking what I was thinking? And I did tell both of them at the same time about this "mystery man" that she had been so intent on having a relationship with over such a long period of time? Ironically....... when I told them the phone number, her friend said....."well that's my number" and suddenly all the pieces fell into place and.......those "personal look up sights" can be just flat out wrong which was what happened. Actually, her phone was in her husbands name, but the computer matched the "wrong guy" who's name was slightly different..and matched it to a completely different person.....instead of her husband and her name...was not even on her phone.
Okay...so now what? I mean, she may have been doing searches and "flirting on line" still.....but now, if she had to leave.....then what was the problem? Well after a little bit of relating my story or version of the story and simply saying......"I don't know you guys......she isn't talking and won't say anything? And she hasn't really...so that's why I'm here or why I doing all of this? I'm just trying to get closure here...that's all I want? I'm not trying or wanting anything from D.....except some kind of reasonable explanation and some accountability from her but I don't want to impose or intrude....but I don't even know that? I don't know what she wants....so I can I know what to do or how to do it.....this is the repeating theme here or else I wouldn't be here right now?"
I had to kind of convince them that this is all I wanted but when they finally did ( I think ) believe me and what my intentions are ) I said I wouldn't need to do this...if she would just tell me, and now here we all are...sitting here speculating instead of it coming from her?
And what it boils down to is just what you said......" I think sometimes, we need to give ourselves a "break", and not believe, we can just " handle it all". I reminded everyone of how we all started and how the circumstance did drive the time frame somewhat.....and how we arrived at her coming to live with me right at first? And I went through how I....went through all the "reasons" "why not" with her........and her friend said D had told her the same thing...and "she knew this" and was "aware of it"....so that answer part of the question? Yes....I agree.....to a certain degree.....you are aware of what lies in front of you and ...."you simply believe you can do it and handle it all". And I was kind of afraid of this....even though "I wasn't doing that this time as much" as I was being realistic...and "asking the questions". And D was answering "YES" each and every time. I just didn't know or suspect..she might have ADHD ( or what ever? ) herself? That was the only part....I didn't count on..and I was thinking that I could do my part ( only ) as long as "she could " do her part.....on her own...without any help from me. I accounted for what I thought I could do....and I was close but the point was....I was already doing what I was doing by myself and I had no one else to deal with at the time? I simply was "not ready" for her to move in.....but I told her so. I told her so...over and over and over again....."I'm not really ready for anyone to come "Live with me right now".....but the circumstances dictated it to a certain degree? And it my own calculations.....if I had the time to devote to finishing with any help from her as a "partnership" then....we'd be Okay...and she like that idea. Who knows how far off I was.....but what I said didn't happen...and it didn't happen in a pronounced way?
So I brought her friend ( the one with ADHD that she calls upon and share everything with ...that phone number who is NOT some guy but her friend ) and her friend said.."Yes, she knows this....but "Love is Blind" especially in a new relationship, it was that "Love with find a way....Love conquers all......I'm so in Love.....we have to be together no matter what comes our way....we will make it from the Love we share ( right now of course ).......which is exactly what I was afraid of. It was my fear...from the get go....that this might be what she was thinking and I do believe this is what she was thinking and got that impression but her words said differently....her words did not say this at all.
So I frankly and bluntly said......"So....it was a mistake....and better......"I was a mistake"...........".....simply put. And the answer was "yes". And you brought this up too in the past Dede and I know I mentioned this to you already.....that things at the end...are not always true as "someone says it was" going back in time. This...is a common experience I've had....at the end of relationships. Like you husband saying......"I never Loved you"...."I've never been in Love with you"........Dede....that is a lie in itself. Yes he was....and he was for a long time....and then it changed and then he didn't Love you anymore? It's like "time projection".....and putting "now" back then and that what you believe....or as her friend chimed in....."I don't know if she knows what she wants."
Well, she did at the time....that was very clear to me and she said so....assertively...with conviction which was not a lie. She saw everything in front of her just the way it was. And she heard me say ( a lot of what I said ) and didn't deny that to her friend. In fact.....her friend told me a lot of things "i didn't hear" that were really things I "wished she would have said to me".....instead of her friend? It's simply the "information" that I needed to hear...but refused to tell me..and tell her friend instead? She can say anything she wants in respect to being "afraid of me if she told me the truth" that I'd fly off the handle and "lose it".....but that has never been what has made me angry.....not telling me the truth...and sharing what she should be sharing with me.....IS WHAT MADE ME ANGRY. I may not have like the "truth" but it wouldn't have me angry or lose control of my temper. "Stonewalling Me" was just one thing made me angry.....the "other defense mechanisms" were the other reasons....and simply not "speaking the truth" as she did...when we "first met". I do not believe..she was intentionally trying to deceive me....but when suddenly she "woke up" and looked around. I told her friend in the moment she would say....."I'm so stupid, I' m such an idiot, I should have known better, " and then threw in some "not so nice comments about me and who I was to include in it? As if I had never said those things ( in mass quantities ) before and she was just now figuring it out?
It was at this moment in time....when she realized "her mistake". "Her mistake"......not "mine"......as far as "her was concerned" which was for the most part true. I still had underestimated some myself...but I was up front and saying...."uh.....there's a lot of work here in front of "us".........but I think she conveniently overlooked the "us part" in all of that? She really really does....over estimate her own abilities and accomplishments and I saw that in part...when she use to tell. me stories of "hiking" 2 miles down a trail once with a day pack and that she was comparing to me....when I was telling her I had "climbed 12,000 ft glaciated peak...with ropes and harnesses, crampons and ice axes" and seeing them somewhat "one in the same"
I let those things slide..since I'm not to "rain on someone else parade and accomplishments" but in reality in comparison here......what she did was the equivalent...to the morning of my Mt. climb....to just walking to the trail head from camp.....just to start the day and start...."the actual climb up the mountain". That would have been the "warm up"....to put this succinctly? And these are the times where she would just "dig in" or say.....'well, I just see it differently than you".....but really she is and she's not.......in what I just said? I saw...that for her....that was a big deal and that was quite an accomplishment and no says otherwise and niether did I at the time. Exactly what I said.....I acknowledged that this "hike" she did..was really a big deal for her and it was kind of scary as she describe walking down a steep trail in the summer with a day pack and down to a river once. and then had to "hike back up" and how difficult that was for her?
And the thing is......at this time, not in my 20's when doing that almost killed me ( not really but it extremely hard and put me right to my limits many times ) if I did what she did now, it would still be tiring and difficult to a certain degree? All I would probably want to do anyway right now....since I'm wanting to "climb Mts" any more? I did it......some 40 odd years ago and that was fine then....but not now? I really have to motivation to it again but who knows....never say never? Doubtful...lets just say that. ( very doubtful....unless it 1/2 that tall lol ) But these were those "moments" where AI could see....that "she felt and believed" that what she did was the "same" as what I did in those moments...and "I disagree with you...I see it differently" For her it was......I never said differently.....but her thinking of what it would entail to "climb a Mt like I did....having never done it before...was a little off the mark.....a bit delusional in her thinking I think?
So what does a person do....when they make a mistake...and have "accountability issues" and a "real problem with "taking or picking up responsibility"? Blain it on something else......or someone else in that case? And when it someone else's fault....all that anger that they are feeling from their mistake.......has to go somewhere....and that somewhere it goes is in "kicking the dog"....the "scape goat"...or the "identified patient"....anyway you want to say it.......it's all "kicking the dog".
Or "stabbing the crying baby with a pitch fork..and throwing it into the fire...when it becomes too unbearable anymore" It's not a case of NO responsibility Dede...its a case of your "eyes being too big for your stomach"..and loading "too much on your plate"...as you pass through the cafeteria line.....but in the end, the excess just goes to waste..and gets tossed in the garbage....there are no consequences for your mistake in that case.
That's exactly what she did Dede...and in the end.....she still doesn't know or can say or admit that to me even if she can to her friend...although.....her friend is still doing the "victim thing too"...and not really putting 2 + 2 together exactly and is still taking kind of a defensive postion in favor of D in this case. She's not taking the full 100% responsibility road either...which is why she would always call on her....in her time of need to commiserate with....but her friend is a lot more grounded and aware plus...she new she had ADHD from a child....and accordingly as she told me.....her childhood as she remembers it with her family was not all too bad. Her father had ADHD and knew it and everyone knew the score...going all the way back to her childhood so that did make a difference.....up to point. She see's it..and she doesn't see it......but more than D.....that much I do get.
And my anser for now ( we'll how it goes once I get all her suff back to her ) is....she "doesn't want to talk to me ( about it )"......maybe never as she said? The problem is.....there is still unfinished bussiness to take care of and she's just ingorning that too.......we'll see how long that goes but at least I know for sure.....what she doesn't want and what her boundary is. I think it's "pay back"....for "placing a boundary on her....that she had no choice or say in ...nor can she do anything about it....she has no control. That is something....she simply cannot deal with.....so she doesn't and that's it.
And that is "it" right there Dede.....going along with what you said.
That's the problem....and it still is?
J
kellyj and C, thanks...insightful
Submitted by dedelight4 on
J, your post had many insights for me. Time "displacement", seems to be a common thing here with all our spouses. I think you're correct about them " meaning something" WHEN they say it, but it can change in short order, or with any given circumstance. I've watched this happen plenty of times,but didn't necessarily put it together with the "I never loved you" statement. Thanks.
Also, even though I'm back in the house and he is MUCH better than he's ever been, I still can't trust him. I've done this too long. He has told me a few times now "It actually makes me physically ILL to know how much I've done to hurt you". I would have done anything to hear those words before, but I am not exactly the same person I was before I left. Some things have drastically changed. Being lied to and betrayed can do that to you, I guess. Not in bitterness, no, but in being cautious and realistic in whom I'm dealing with here. He's asked forgiveness yes, and I've given it to him. The problem is I know how fast he can also change a situation to fit his current circumstances. (Like your wife does J)
I really do think he's sorry,but man, its going to take time here. I didn't hate him from all this, I hated MYSELF for choosing and putting up with this for so long. Then, the lies and betrayal and the damage done inside of me was, and is, staggering. I stopped looking in mirrors because I hated even looking at my own reflection. I doubted that I could make ANY beneficial choice for myself. Trust, and love was damaged, and I no longer felt like a woman, let alone an " attractive" woman. Especially after years and years of no sex from him, and then he has a LTA.
Getting to where I'm at now, which has been an indifference towards him. I don't hate him at all,but I'm no longer "in" love with him either. I told him I wondered what it would be like to have someone "be IN LOVE" with ME, similar to the "in love" I felt for him, which shocked him. I wasn't being mean or ugly, it was honest. Don't get me wrong, I'm not looking for another romance, not at all. Its just I have been very hard on myself for "being in love" with him for all those years, and it didn't seem to matter to him. I had to distance myself, for what small sense of self survivall I had left.
A spouse can be rejected for only so long (regardless the circumstances) before something breaks. I hated myself for "choosing" this for my life. Yes, we didn't know about the ADHD for a long time, and I felt I was loosing my marbles, and so many things just didn't make sense, etc.
Anyway, I also like what you said about "truth". I was not the kind of woman who turned into the " nonadhd" nagging wife, that had to stay on top of her husband. I just didn't DO that, but regardless, it didn't make any difference,the marriage still turned out the same as if I had done that. And I too, want TRUTH and would MUCH prefer a hard truth to an easy lie or an "unsaid whatever".
Another thing you mentioned, about their eyes being too big for their stomach, with a lot going to waste, which can easily get thrown away without thought. (Including people) and IF they think about it too long, it causes feelings they don't want to feel, so get " rid" of it/them. Yes.agreed. My husband also does a lot of "I " thinking too. What affects HIM, body functions(don't even get me started) etc, much more than thinking what's best for my wife and children.
Again, he now states that he wants to be a better husband and yes, he IS trying hard. I don't want to discourage him, but a few months isn't going to make up for over 3 decades of time. I've witnessed the 180 changes first hand, and I can't trust this "new outlook" yet. He's just going to have to deal with that.
And C, I agree with what you wrote about him being his "state of normal". Yep, it is. The year I was gone proved that. The house and yard suffered terribly. It looks awful. We live in a very nice development, and we are that" dreaded" house on the block that looks like a junk house. Its a wonder we haven't been fined for it yet. I kept everything up because he didn't/wouldn't, and I wanted to live in a clean, lawn mowed/trimmed house. I can't physically DO that anymore, so everything is in pretty bad shape. And the house is only 14 years old.
He talks a lot about being "too overwhelmed" with everything, so he does nothing. Interesting. I guess that's part of it also. He's still not getting behavior therapy or counseling for ADHD and whatever else there might be.
I'm sorry you guys are also going through so much also. Its why we are here. J, I really DO understand and know the kind of hurt and loss you must be feeling. I wish you the very best. I've been encouraged and inspired from your writings, so I hope you stay here. Even in your hurt,there is much you can still share.
Have a great day guys. Dede
Dede...........Co- Narcissist vs Co-Dependent
Submitted by kellyj on
Hi Dede,
You know, for me this has been a life long journey of discovery, and mainly......not to discover "as much" who I am( even though that's what I thought I was doing ( because of this "thing" ).....but more, "what happened to me" simply put. When you said :
" I am not exactly the same person I was before I left. Some things have drastically changed. Being lied to and betrayed can do that to you, I guess. Not in bitterness, no, but in being cautious and realistic in whom I'm dealing with here. He's asked forgiveness yes, and I've given it to him. The problem is I know how fast he can also change a situation to fit his current circumstances. (Like your wife does J)
I really do thinkhe'ssorry,but man, its going to take time here. I didn't hate him from all this, I hated MYSELF for choosing and putting up with this for so long. Then, the lies and betrayal and the damage done inside of me was, and is, staggering. I stopped looking in mirrors because I hated even looking at my own reflection. I doubted that I could make ANY beneficial choice for myself. Trust, and love was damaged, and I no longer felt like a woman, let alone an " attractive" woman. Especially after years and years of no sex from him, and then he has a LTA.
Getting to where I'm at now, which has been an indifference towards him. I don't hate him at all,but I'm no longer "in" love with him either. I told him I wondered what it would be like to have someone "be IN LOVE" with ME, similar to the "in love" I felt for him, which shocked him. I wasn't being mean or ugly, it was honest. Don't get me wrong, I'm not looking for another romance, not at all. Its just I have been very hard on myself for "being in love" with him for all those years, and it didn't seem to matter to him. I had to distance myself, for what small sense of self survivall I had left.
A spouse can be rejected for only so long (regardless the circumstances) before something breaks. I hated myself for "choosing" this for my life. Yes, we didn't know about the ADHD for a long time, and I felt I was loosing my marbles, and so many things just didn't make sense, etc."
I could change the wording slightly, to say "a person can only be rejected for only so long ( regardless of the circumstance ) before something breaks. I hate myself............." and I do know exactly how you feel Dede, but I've been here before....more than once, but there is a difference now that I think I know what it is and it goes back to my father just to start with, since he was the "Narcissist" in question here? And I really had to "place him" first and pin him down...before I could place anyone else, since he was the "King Pin".....or the "leader of the Micky "Mouse-ka-teer" club in my case. He was "Jimmy".....if you remember at all, "Why, because......."WE" like 'YOU"" ( yeah right, "who's this "WE"....HA! LOL )....with friends like you Jimmy...who needs enemies?? lol
And that's a really good analogy.....what "Club" are we talking about here? If I'm a "Mouse-ka-teer" then who are "YOU?" lol Well, we was an "Overt" Narcissist, ....it's very obvious and right out there in the open. "They" in that respect, are not hard that spot really. They kind of wear it like a "uniform" and they are rather proud of it in fact. This is where you have to separate the wheat from the chaff because :"everyone is a Narcissist" at times or has some features.....but it doesn't mean you are a "bona-fide" or "clinically diagnosed" "Narcissist".....which was my fear all along ..first thing when I walked into my therapist office and was telling him that straight up...."I'm afraid I'm my Dad.......my worst nightmare!!" Which my T said...."no, but , what you "got" has the "flavor of it". Since I'm not an expert or have any formal training here......I've picked up some vocaulary that may or may not be applied exactly right.....but in context....it will help me say whaow now" more than ever just to put this into perspective and give you my own insight into what you said.
There can only be "One Jimmy" in this particualr club.....and it you can't beat 'em...as they say....you join them or at least......join the club. The term...."Co-Narcissist" really does apply just using that term to describe what I see as a difference here. And in a real sense......you do get, what you see with Jimmy. He's a pretty predictable charactor.......and it's right there out in the open for everyone to see. There's not a lot of sneaking around or hiding it....."Jimmy" where's that hat with the "Big Ears" and he's got his name written right on it. As well as a T-shirt with his name written right across it........it's not that hard to figure out. As long as you just "keep your place" and stay as a lowly "Mouse-ka-teer" and stay "beneath"Jimmy......Jimmy likes it when you emulate him and copy him...and becomes his "side kick" or "stooge". He'll throw you a one bone if you do tricks for him, and occasionally he'll use you are the "but of his jokes in front of everyone" but mostly, he like's you....as long as you keep your place. You can get long fine with 'Jimmy" as long as you don't "call him out"...or "show him"...anything he doesn't want to see? When you do......"whammo"....."smack down"....right down to the ground...."bam". Like the "rug just got pulled out from underneath you".....there is no question in what just happened when someone hits you in the head with 2 by 4. LOL It rather instantaneous.......no question about it. Which means......don't do that......pretty much. lol As you learn.
So dropping the metaphors here.......you become the "Co-Naricsisst".....or "side kick" , and you ae trained and conditioned to be a certain acceptable way......to them that is...more to the point. And in very much in a "God Like" way....they create you in their image.....more closely to the point. But that's just to be in the "Club".....otherwise, you're just you. They have a "mask" or uniform......you get a "persona"....but it's only when you where your "Big Ears"....the rest of the time, you drop that persona and am more yourself which is exactly what it felt like. For me, it was more like "Yeah, well......I may be "in your stupid club"......."but I'm NOT the CLUB"!!"...LIKE YOU!". There can only be ONE "Jimmy"...which is kmade clear by the Hat and T-Shirt with "Jimmy" written all over it. In all his glory......halelujah!! lol
But that's not the same thing as "Covert Narcissist" which is way more insidious and not so easy to spot. "Shy" or "Covert" Narcissists....don't wear a "Big Ear" hat...with their name written across the front of their T-Shirt. Your in the "Club" and you don't even know it..and you don't even get a Hat or a T-Shirt to wear on top of it!!!! And that's a huge part of it too.......at least with an "Overt" one....it's all out there in the open...and they know that too....they can't get away with not at least....putting on a good show for everyone is they are right out there in the open. I mean, mu father for example......I'd say "had skills" and he was "street smart" and knew what he was doing, right out there in the open if you were "in the club" kind a like "Hells Angels".....what "happens in Vegas.....stays in Vegas"......it's right there out in the open...where everyone can see? Not a lot off sneaking around....and you actually are let in on the rules. You know the rules..and you know the consequences of breaking them...and if you "go against the brotherhood".....you are not longer in the club.
And actually, I've thought of this more recently, in trying to place myself and what my "persona" that I learned from being in that "club" for as long as I was.........and who I might be in comparison? It would definitely be some kind of "traitor" or "double agent'.....since in reality, my heart and mind belonged somewhere else and didn't belong there......but I had no choice. I was "born into it" you might say.....you do what you have to ,,,just to survive..and survive you do....where there is a will...there is a way? And I've mentioned this too ( before I came up with "character" ) which makes this all the more fitting....about "escaping" ...an better I've said "escaping INTO reality"...not from it. Figuratively ....this is a very important point to make since that was basically me saying......I "un-joining the club" or at least....trying to escape from it and not be in it, any more than I had to? But it is like trying to "not be in the "mob" anymore? I mean, once you're "in the family"....there's only one way out? Know what I mean? I mean, you know too much.....you've seen the man behind the curtain since you were allowed back stage and are "in the club" yourself as a supporting role in it? I mean....you are a Co-Narcissist yourself, you got your "Colors" ( Hells Angels slang for their "Jacket with all the tags and the name on the back " )...and everything. Or at least.....your T-shirt with you own "Mouse Ears Hat"...with you name embroidered on it? At the very least. lol
So for me the perfect character in all of this as I see myself even "then"....was "Blade"...."The Day Walker"....if you ever seen that movie with Wesley Snipes? The "Vampire" who could walk in the daytime...who didn't like Vampires...and was "sworn to kill them".......an "Expatriot"........or a "Traitor" to the cause who simply went the other way but is no Angel either since he was born in the club , but e or say in it and had to survive any way I could and the best way to survive....is not to fight. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.......it's not a bad strategy either.....you just need to know who and when not to join...and when to run? And pretty much....when you have to make a stand and fight if you have to but for self protection only......not in the way that Jimmy is doing it or for that reason...but to protect yourself and come away without getting harmed yourself.
And you know, it's feels really shitty, when you have to do that. I feel badly about myself ...having to do that but it's in response to someone doing something to you, that is harming you. They care harming you and causing you to suffer and they won't stop until they get what they want? And that's kind of wht it felt like.....like, "you aren't doing what I think you're doing are you? Cause, it kind a looks like it.....but it's not it "exactly.......I don't think? But it feels like it.....more than anything else...and "I know what this feels like".......so what are you trying to pull here?"
It's very "parasitic" which is different than being "Co-Narcissist". At least as a "Co-Narcissist" there are some benefits and entitlements. I mean...at least, you get the "chew on the bone" or get something out of it? Overt Narcs are very benevolent and generous and can be really great to be with until something goes wrong. If they aren't having fun, then you can't either. But if they are, they love to share the wealth but ....you only get that if they do, they get first...."side kicks" get what's left over. If you are always "wing man"......that is always where you will be? Or "Wing Woman" I suppose?
I now understand all of this and can see what these things are? And where I fit and who I am to a certain degree...which is really helpful and makes it easier to resolve all of this and put it in it's proper place.
Yes...."big difference".......between......"Covert Aggression" ( passive aggression ) "covert or shy narcissism"...and "overt" or more "direct Narcissism".....out in the open, but the key word is "aggression".......you can be "passive" and not be "agressive".
And you can be agressive......without being a Narcissist too......depdends on it's purpose...and what you are trying to "gain from it". I mean, if your motivations and intentions are honorable......then you should not be "hurting anyone" even if you are more aggressive than passive. I'm leaving the word "strong" out of it since "passive aggression"....can be very strong..and a very powerful tool to usemply that to manipulate people.
And Dede....to you and everyone here who is going through this or "in it" for the long haul........I admire you, and admire your strength and courage....above and beyond the call of duty. That is the defintion of a "Hero" i'd say.....you are very heroic and it takes a very strong person...to do what you've done. And are still doing....it takes a lot out of you and "sucks" the life right out of you or it can, if you let it, and that's kind of where the rubber meets the road as they say?
All I can say Dede....is "it can change you" and it does to a cetain degree....but as I've always noticed, that if I do not sucomb and I stay with what I know of myself and who I am......I always come back to the dame place again.....and that is the person I am. And that person....I'm Okahy with with and for the most part.....neither does anyone else? Except for the yard looking like Hell!! LOL THAT'S THE ADHD PART!!! That is separate and needs to be addressed constantly...or it will get out of control.
In my case......it was in control and everything was kept up and "really not bad"...in fact...soemtimes "perfect".....no problems at all. That is the inconsistent nature of ADHD. If you don't stay on it all the time....it can get away from you in a hurry and when it does....it's difficult to get it back but hyou can.....with some effort...it all takes effort and it all take energy. The problem is....is someone is "sucking all your energy from you".....it makes it difficult to "keep up " with it or ...get back the ground you lost.....from major life changing event happening? I mean that happens to everyone and things get neglected......."shit happens" sometimes....just not everyday? When "every day" there is some kind of "crisis"....and the person having the biggest crisis daily.....is the one who is creating it.......something is inherently wrong with that......especially is they are "pretending"..and the whole story of what they 've said is a lie.
I did text D........and told her what I think. And I told her that she knew the entire time...and chose not to tell me? A little too obvious...for a "social worker" who works with Asperger and Autistic people......not to know what she knows. And who is even more obvious....is her brother. Oh my yes.........you can really see kit in him in everyway possible. The thing is though....he doesn't try and hide it so much......not like his sister? In this one instance.....I did lie to her.....I told her I got an annonymous email sent to me.......with her name on it...that directed me to some "Asperger" links...which I forwarded to her. And I told her.......itt's really hard to trust someone....when they don't trust you? And the fact that......"all th se other lies....are just covinging for the "big one" and I said about the same thing to her Dede.. I told her I'm not angry or even mad at her for it and have no designs on getting her back or hurting her for doing it which a part of me understands. But that's still no excuse......"and you know exadtly what I'm talking about. You know exactly who you are, and what you havd done......" and now "so do I".
All I am is sad and kind of hurt......but I know exactly who I am..and what I did too an..and I did not betray myself...or do anything to betray her trust either...with the best intentions always. And I still do......I just took all her power and control away from her...and put in place and "wall" that she cannot get through or past for selection.....and "oh boy......apparently, she does not like that." But I'm not using that against her or trying to "hurt her" ....even though I'm sure it does....more that it makes her angry instead. I'm following through with exactly what I said...and in the text.....I told her I would only do what I can to :"help her" meaming to facilitate her and do what I can to help her with wha by gettingt all her things back to her and taking care of anhy loose ends and bussiness between us but I did tell her...that I cannot do all of that without confirring with her or at least going over any loose ends that we didn't discuss which I have yet to hear word one.....since "passive aggression" and the "silent treatment" is a powerful tool....or it can be......if you let it? I'm just not playing ball with her on that one. I'm talking the last of her stuff to her...paying off her phone.....letting her have a couple of months on my phone account ( it's cheap for the second line....like $15...so what ) I'm doing what I need to do....to stay clean and not get dirty. If she want's to play ball with me.....she'll have to come clean herself. I'm not going to keep after her...or even text her much unless I have to ...and the only reason I have to is.....to take care of bussiness..and to call her out "in writing" The problem is.....when you call them out........is when the "shit hits the fan" sometimes, unless you do something ahead of time or proactively speaking...to prevent that from happening?
But I know that better than anyone here, I'm the "Day Walker" totally.....and I've alway been that? Like I said........I'm not Angel or have been in my past....but I can be totally trusted where and when it counts.....that much I am sure of, I always come back to the same place everytime...and I like that person pretty much.......not a a"bad guy" I'd say? Better than some....that's for sure.
And to you Dede.....I can say the same thing....don't beat yourself up too much, for what you had to do at times? Without knowing what to do or how to do it....you did the right thing, based on what you knew, and you can't blame yourself for simply not knowing can you? I can forgive myself for that, and can use what I learned for the next time....to keep doing the gith thi as I can? What else can you do really? it does change you though....when you can see it? The turth isn't alwasy pretty....but it shouldn't hurt....unless you're doing something wrong yourself. I think. Thank you as always Dede, for your kind words.
J
I understand you feelings Dede....Totally!
Submitted by c ur self on
But, we have (me and many of us here) been looking at it wrong,....It's different "normals"....Everything you listed here about your husband is his "normal"....It's not your's....Everything you said about the way he lives (un-thankfulness about his job, to the point it robbed him of his ability to take care of his priorities, like loving his wife for one, non stop messes, demanding house purchases, then dumping the work on you, refusal to do yard work etc..) is his "normal". He would live that way no matter if you are there or not..If someone else was in your role, or if he was alone, same thing....He is going to live his normal, until it's not his normal any longer. Just like you and I....Very few things change a person's normal....If preaching, bitching, crying, complaining, cussing and fighting would do it....We would all have the same normals...(sadly, at my house anyway).....
I've got on this forum and talked about all this dysfunctional living I'm forced to endure for years now....But, in reality, it's not dysfunctional at all in her mind...It's her normal...That is why she don't like me much LOL...She has been getting harped at an preached at for nine years for pursuing her normal lifestyle...There is no natural ability to discipline her life as a spouse; her normal is single living....I choose, I live...I, I , I....LOL....
It has taken me deciding that I have no fear of living alone to help us both...I don't feel like I have to point out things any longer (unless she is wanting to force something on me)...And she has been working on her attitude, and coming along side me in more peaceful and kind way....I just pray it lasts for both of us....My goodness; we can both be kind to strangers...Surly we love and care about each other enough to be kind and respectful....
I told my wife just to night...I said if we can master two simple things it will change our marriage 180 degree's....Openness and Approachable....When this happens there is no more eggshells, the defensive posturing and selfishness will have to abate....I think w/ love, patience and self awareness we can get there...Mostly we need Jesus awareness....
I think I'm getting it.....hopefully we both will....
Good NIght:)
C