A jerk dressed up w/ pretty drugs is still a jerk. Are we all self-harming codependents?

Sounds Familiar

Submitted by ArtGamer on Sat, 06/03/2017 - 18:14

I'm experiencing a lot of what you describe, only I have nowhere else to go right now so I'm trapped in a "perfect storm" of my wife's ADHD + depression + undiagnosed ODD.

It is not your fault, nor is it mine, that we have loved and supported our spouses.

I wish I had answers for you. I am also looking for answers. I doubt my marriage will survive this current cycle. And even if we do survive this together this time, I know with 100% certainty that I can't endure another one of these cycles when it appears in 4-5 years. I'm just too worn out to keep dealing with it.

When I was younger I used to wonder why there were always "old people" living alone in the same apartment complexes I was living in. These weren't poor people or there because they had no family, they just wanted to be alone and generally kept to themselves. I thought to myself, how sad, I hope I never end up alone like that. But now I understand it. Now that seems very appealing to me. I so wish I could have that now.

I get it now too

Submitted by LRHG on Sun, 06/04/2017 - 11:03

I want to be one of those "old people". My partner is away for a few days and it is heaven. Honestly, I think we'd both be happier on our own doing our day-to-day activities. My life is more structured and in control. No chaos. I can think about things I can't "get to" when he is here due to always thinking of his issues, finding his stuff, cleaning up etc.

TheRestIsStillU, know this too

Submitted by dedelight4 on Sat, 06/03/2017 - 19:56

Welcome to the forum. Sorry you are also living this life of chaos that many of us here have been living for so long. My husband was diagnosed about 10 years ago, and we are both 60. It's been a constant rollercoaster of chaos, gigantic messes, and confusion that just keeps going. He is on Concerta for his ADHD, but wants to think he mainly has a focus problem, rather than something that can severely affect relationships, which has made it very hard for us to communicate well. He hasnt had any behavioral therapy for it, which I would like to see him get, as well as both of us get counseling for this. I too, have thought I lost my sanity at times, because certain things just didnt make sense, and there's no peace, ever, without some sort of stress and conflict going on. It is crazy making for sure, and Ive thought other married couples cant be going through THIS much chaos, do they? Dont know. Our finances are once again in serious trouble, right when we are looking at retirement age. Not good. It just never ends. And its been exhausting emotionally and mentally, as well as physically. Wishing you well.

A Place to Start

Submitted by MelissaOrlov on Sun, 06/04/2017 - 10:02

There is a lot in your post, but let me see if I can provide you with some things to think about.

First - do the meds make that much difference? For some people, yes. ADHD is about an in balance of neurotransmitters in the brain - when that balance is restored with medications, the experience that the person with ADHD is having can be quite different. The question, of course, is what does the ADHD partner DO with those differences? To be successful, he will need to take his improved focus and apply it to areas of his life in which he struggles - in his case (from this one post) it sounds as if one of those areas is emotional lability (i.e. controlling emotions and responding very quickly and strongly to emotional input) and that perhaps the meds help there, too. As for which is the 'real' partner? That depends in part on whether you are a glass half empty or full person. Extend your wheelchair example. If your husband were in a wheelchair and some drugs allowed him to walk again, which would be the real person? The one who could walk, or the one who, after 7pm, had to get back into his wheelchair? (I know it's a stretch, but it's also instructive. Because part of what is important in that wheelchair example is the empathy you feel for the person in the chair.)

Your husband has just started on the meds - it may be that there are more improvements that can be made. For example, it might make sense for him to add Wellbutrin to the mix, as this is a 24/7 coverage med that is used to help with ADHD. It also often improves emotional self-regulation. Or, perhaps changing his sleep patterns or exercising more or...there are LOTS of options, not just meds, for helping manage ADHD. Please download my free ebook on optimizing ADHD treatment for much more info.

As for coming to the 50 yard line. You are 100% correct on that - a healthy relationship doesn't include going back for getting beat up over and over again, either literally or figuratively. Non-ADHD partners DO need to adjust to having ADHD in the relationship - because, among other things, they need to be more flexible than couples where ADHD doesn't exist. As an example, plans may change with less notice than you might expect, or you might need to work harder to figure out who is in charge of what responsibilities (taking into account the ADHD partner's difficulty engaging with stuff that is boring, for example.) But those sorts of adjustments are VERY different from putting up with emotional abuse or being in a position where you are making excuses for your partner. There is a bottom line in relationships - and neither one of you can continue to be an angry, hurtful, disrespectful partner (I include you in this because if you are like most non-ADHD partners who have been dealing with undiagnosed ADHD for a while now, you have anger issues that need to be addressed.)

There is a transition period in which you both need to learn a lot more about ADHD and how it impacts you. (As an example, you will need to figure out how you are going to deal with your anxiety about the differences between when he is on meds and not, your fears (and his) that things will 'revert,' get yourselves into a situation where you can talk about difficult topics without defensiveness - learning...) All of these things takes time and effort...but I've seen couples do this over and over again. Many of those who are successful have taken my live couples seminar. I don't say this because I'm trying to sell you something, but because it is like turning on the firehose of information that you need - and tons of exposure to other couples who have the same issues. The course often (not always) changes the trajectory of how couples interact quite dramatically.

Kids are not a reason to stay in a bad relationship - but they are a reason to try whatever you can to improve one. I think it's important to do whatever you can do to know you have contributed your best self and the two of you have explored all options. At the end of that journey, you'll know what your next step should be (stay or go.) Learning about how ADHD impacts relationships is life changing - thank you for posting here and joining the forum. I hope we can start you on this journey that gets you to a better place for you and your family...whatever that place ends up being.

Melissa

Trisu.....From Both Sides Now and that Co-Dedepency Thing

Submitted by kellyj on Tue, 06/06/2017 - 04:55

I thought I would chime in as kind of a testimony in part to what Melissa said to you here. I can use a couple of things she has said to confirm and give you my own experience to throw into the mix. Having ADHD myself, I've come a long way down this road you have to take to get to a place where you can both: a) understand what you are going through and dealing with ...and ... b) you're even aware of the things you are talking about in the first place. For the most part, I can put myself into this category and at least understand and am aware of everything you're saying for myself in dealing with all the things Melissa mentioned and I wanted to jump on a couple of those things to give you a better idea what she means. I can put this into my experience and tell you how that is for me.

First - do the meds make that much difference? For some people, yes. ADHD is about an in balance of neurotransmitters in the brain - when that balance is restored with medications, the experience that the person with ADHD is having can be quite different.    I would have to say that meds worked immediately for me. But not until I tried a couple other options first as far as meds go, with very little good to report back on them. Actually, in some ways, it made it worse, and not until I went on Adderall which works as it should to the point, I now forget what it was like before and that experience that was different for me years ago is the new "normal" for me. And normal is exactly what it feels like to the point when I first started taking it..the first realization I had was...." so this is what it's like...to be like everyone else?? WOW!! This is awesome, I can't believe I waited this long. If I have only knew....blah blah blah. There is a period of time, you just revel in this feeling like you finally found an answer to something that there's too many things to that go into it to sort it all out right at first. All you now, is you are jubulant or elated to finally find something that actually works. And how I felt about that was it worked in more ways and better than I initially even realized? The way you described what you saw in your H, sounded a lot like when I first started taking the meds which is exactly what Melissa mentioned too. It hasn't been that long for someone to start really noticing all the changes that are taking place. You are literally changing that imbalance...to being balanced which feels great...but it's still disorienting right at first. There's a whole lot of adjusting and readjusting and moving all over the place and you do go up and down and your moods are changing which just takes time to really settle in and for everything to settle down and stop moving. You are so use to "not being normal" or balanced...that being balanced feels funny and kind of weird? If all you knew was "before"....in light of the change....everything is new and new for a while, until it's not new anymore? LOL At first, everything is getting better and feeling better and life is great, at least until you come to the realization or awareness of what the drugs actually are doing? Feeling good in respect to being balanced is what you want. Feeling good because it's exhilarating and new and exciting...is also great, but short lived. Once you get use to anything, the thrill and excitement dissapates and what is left is what you got. It doesn't get any better from there?Adderall which works as it should to the point, I now forget what it was like before and that experience that was different for me years ago is the new "normal" for me. And normal is exactly what it feels like to the point when I first started taking it..the first realization I had was...." so this is what it's like...to be like everyone else?? WOW!! This is awesome, I can't believe I waited this long. If I have only knew....blah blah blah. There is a period of time, you just revel in this feeling like you finally found an answer to something that there's too many things to that go into it to sort it all out right at first. All you now, is you are jubulant or elated to finally find something that actually works. And how I felt about that was it worked in more ways and better than I initially even realized? The way you described what you saw in your H, sounded a lot like when I first started taking the meds which is exactly what Melissa mentioned too. It hasn't been that long for someone to start really noticing all the changes that are taking place. You are literally changing that imbalance...to being balanced which feels great...but it's still disorienting right at first. There's a whole lot of adjusting and readjusting and moving all over the place and you do go up and down and your moods are changing which just takes time to really settle in and for everything to settle down and stop moving. You are so use to "not being normal" or balanced...that being balanced feels funny and kind of weird? If all you knew was "before"....in light of the change....everything is new and new for a while, until it's not new anymore? LOL At first, everything is getting better and feeling better and life is great, at least until you come to the realization or awareness of what the drugs actually are doing? Feeling good in respect to being balanced is what you want. Feeling good because it's exhilarating and new and exciting...is also great, but short lived. Once you get use to anything, the thrill and excitement dissapates and what is left is what you got. It doesn't get any better from there?

The question, of course, is what does the ADHD partner DO with those differences? To be successful, he will need to take his improved focus and apply it to areas of his life in which he struggles - in his case (from this one post) it sounds as if one of those areas is emotional lability (i.e. controlling emotions and responding very quickly and strongly to emotional input) and that perhaps the meds help there, too. As for which is the 'real' partner? That depends in part on whether you are a glass half empty or full person.    And this is where the work really begins. That intial getting use to it, undoubted makes you feel better and less irritable and short on patience and all the things that go with not feeling all that good or perhaps....chronically "less than Okay" But with "less than Okay" being the norm that you're use to. It's all you know, up to that point. So now what? Like Melissa mentioned, you've got to apply it and applying it is where the work comes in? I'm a glass half full person by nature even with having ADHD which I feel, was my own way of compensating for being "less than Okay" and always trying to look on the bright side of things? This is more of a way of seeing things....not that I was always in a happy mood or just a bright and smiley person all the time? I had a host, of pet peeves and things that really "bugged me" and I certainly expressed that more often before I started going on meds. It's one thing to have an overall optimistic view point, but that mainly shows when things are not going well? Everybody is in a good mood when things are going great....it's when things aren't going so great ..that your moods can really change and change rapidly depending on the circumstance. I would have been a sour and negative person...if it weren't for developing an optimistic view in simply being able to look forward to something in the future which gave me a motivation or purpose to strive for or to look forward to in order to counter act my negativity which was mainly due to the things I would experience that caused my scales to tip the other way? I definitely, have the emotional ability that Melissa mentioned, but even as a kid...I remember having giggling fits and uncontrolled times of laughter as well as having moments where I lost control of myself in the negative but also saying, that is not where I lived ...in an on going basis. What I have learned from seeing someone else who is dealing with the same issue, when I watch my wife ( who has ADHD ) I can see a really dramatic difference between the two of us right from the start? She always sees what's "wrong" first....and I always tend to see what's "right" or good about a situation. That may sound all well and fine, but there is a down side to that too. The down side is what I realized in the why I was doing it? I was doing it to compensate like I said, which was the only way to keep myself on the positive side of things in where I lived for the most part, until I hit an obstacle that I could not get around or face? When that happened my mood could turn into a bad attitude and then into depression. Situational depression, but depression none the less. Being on the positive side of things was also a way to stem off depression but in all of these things I've mentioned, I was still trying to manage my ADHD by employing those techniques or tricks I learned to keep my head up above water? And sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't. Going on the meds....changed all of that? I no longer had to empty those same things in order to compensate for what the meds were now doing without me having to do anything? What a relief it was, not to have to try so hard just to stay in a decent mood for any prolonged period of time? Now, if I start turning sour....it's a really big deal and I noticed it immediately and I immediately start looking for reasons why? I would imagine from what I said about realizing "this is what it must be like"...well, not "this is the way I am" all the time, so I notice when things aren't "right" rather quickly. Almost immediately you might say? That's what you learn...from being on them for a while? You start to notice things you didn't notice before, since you had nothing to compare that too?

Kids are not a reason to stay in a bad relationship - but they are a reason to try whatever you can to improve one. I think it's important to do whatever you can do to know you have contributed your best self and the two of you have explored all options.   This is really the most profound thing I can say. I have always tried my best to be the best person I could be ( in that positive frame of mind as often as I was able ) Having this gift bestowed on me now, in not having to work so hard all the time just to stay level.....it opened up an opportunity, I simply did not have before? My ability or capacity levels....just bumped up a whole bunch...but all that boils down to is potential...you still have to apply it and raise the bar on you own? And from the sound of it in the way you described what you've tried to do...is do that for him, which is where this starts to get co-dependent I think? You volunteered for that part, all on your own, in service of something you want from him, which only leads to disappointment. In the very essence of everything you've tried, from the sound of it, you were or still are banking on him changing, so you can come to the 50 yard line and not be working for him, in trying to get him better for you in that respect? If you are looking at it that way....that is kind of co-dependent right there in itself? You state of mind or basic framework for how you are and how you feel, is dependent or contingent on him...instead of looking at it from how I was saying for myself? If you are on hold...or are working to get him "better" so you will feel "better.....then this is a "we" thing...and you can't be Okay....unless he is "Okay? That's what's co-dependent and that is what really sucks. Hard!!! I've lived that way for over 1/2 my life and once you get out of that trap...there is no going back. In the same way I described how I felt when I went on meds....once I realized that "WOW" feeling...that wow, was saying "holy cow" that really sucked!! LOL And "I'm never doing that again" now that I know something better? And if you don't know any better, you don't know what you are missing? That's the insidious nature of falling into co-dependence, you forget how good it can be...when you are no long that way anymore? And all a long.....you volunteered for it yourself...by trying to do what you can't do for someone else? You can't do what he needs to do.... for him ( or another person )and that's just an endless cycle of failure and hear break and spinning in circles? Why? Because it's not possible to do, and that includes your kids as well? You may not being seeing it, but in respect to what you said...I can see it just in what you said here which is not me criticizing ( heaven forbid no !! ) that me empathizing with you since I've been there myself? I am functionally...like the non-adhd'er between my wife and myself, and everything you're fighting up against....I'm fighting up against myself? What you said here is really telling and I'll just include it now so I can comment on what you said.
I NEED to organize this in my mind with some sort of model. If he was in a wheelchair I'd say "Can I live a life with a man in a wheelchair, yes or no." But the guy in the wheelchair isn't a tornado of psychological abuse. The adhd is. .... which brings me back to the top - am I just still a codependent allowing someone to scare the sh*t out of me even when he's nice? Stockholm syndrom is NOT the marriage I sought when we met 22 yrs ago. Mother trucker. They are mindf**ks. I feel we become more like them, not the reverse. It's a robbery of an entire life. Even me spending my 1 free hour on a Saturday - I feel ROBBED of normalcy, sanity. But as another post-er said: he faked it so well in the beginning, I was duped into doing the biggest most important thing I thought I'd ever do with someone - have kids. My kids are the MOST important to me; they are the next generation. I'd have left my husband years ago if it were not for my kids. Yet I've read all about how it's healthy to leave a spouse to give kids a model of how to have self-care, self-compassion, even if it means breaking up a marriage. Yet b/c of career changes for my husband, the kids have already managed so much change, they just need consistency (my younger sees a therapist for worries about us!!!). So I just need THEM healthy and I do yoga and mindfulness work. But it always seems like he's the riptide trying to pull at all our good grounding work.

I'll just say what I see and get down to the bottom line quickly. You NEED, consistency. You NEED....to stay grounded. You NEED to be strong and healthy...."they" don't need that as far as you know? "THEY" as in yor kids....kids are really resilient. Kids got it easy, in respect to having to stress about change? That's all kids do is change? That's their job for crying out loud!! lol Kids can mold themselves pretty easily and adapt on a dime. Kid get ordered around at school and have to follow orders all the time? Kids are not stressed out about those things like you are since kids, can't do it for themselves or actually know what to do? All they need is a clear direction given to them, and they'll just go and do what they are told for the most part, and that's all they know? They don't need what you need, and what you need is to get to the 50 yard line, before you'll feel better or better still.....the 50 yard line, is the codefendant break point that you need to get on the other side of ? Take it from someone who knows, what sucks is being co-dependent. That what makes you feel like a victim because you are a victim by your own choosing in this case? And there's really no two ways around this for you, you got to fight your way back to the 50 yard line yourself. That is...by yourself and you have to apply it...the same way? Which means, he's not going to like it, you can be sure of that..and he will keep pushing back against you for every step you take towards that line? He losing something, and your gaining something but you are doing it to get even or get back at him, but he's not going to understand what is happening, and he will likely ramp up his attitude in the negative? You going to just have to take what is yours, whether he likes it or not? This is not fun....let me tell you, depending on how hard he fights you for it along the way? And the only way I found to do this, is to have something you can look forward to? You have to have some kind of carrot or reward after all, for going up again someone who is working against you and throwing all that negative flack at you at the same time? He will undoubtedly start feeling insecure...which is really the defining line I think? What Melissa said is really the bottom line....to contribute your best self, you have to become that better person? To be the better person, despite someone trying their best to do everything in their power to sabotage you...takes some moxy and some courage and some internal fortitude to do? In respect to doing this for yourself....you'll be showing him what you are made of? And if you're not a victim to him and all he does....it's makes him look bad....if he's not doing that himself? He's not likely to respond favorably at first...but that's just the chance you take or the leap of faith you have to commit to...in order to contribute your best self forward and then wait for anything in return.

You also need to realize something here as I am saying this? I have all of the same issues and struggles your husband has ( the emotional liability etc etc ) the meds make it possible where before it would have really been a fight.   But I actually did do that before and broke free without the meds....so in respect to me, and saying this genuinely. You've got it easy...without what I've got on top of it? When my wife does this abusive non sense that I'm really tired of....I am not a victim to it, and I am not blaming her for the way I feel? I know why I feel the way I do...and that is not my wifes fault? But being bombared with her mood swings and in inability to regualte herslef...I've trying to work on me and my symptoms and then having to turn around and do it for her too? Doing for her....comes in a lot of different ways....but if she'd let me...I'd be doing all kinds of things for her because she simply cannot see how this is effecting me? She is so deep, in her own management of herself, that the managing of herself...is many times the thing that is effecting me negatively? She is not keeping it to herself, and sharing it with me and actually forcing me into the postion of having to make one of two bad choices. Bad for me....good for her? And completely unneccesary, is she simply thought about what she is doing or doing it in a different way? The very thing she does not want to do...is to do it differently because it harder to do. Doing things differently is hard for me, but I do it and don;t complain and I don't belly ache or whine about it? And no one can abuse me unless I allow them to abuse me? I choose to do this, and the abusive language and behavior I finally came to the point was deciding that had to stop. I'm not expecting anything from her in terms of her syptoms which is something I can totally relate with so that's not the problem. The problem is when she fights me, and starts the "kicking the dog" behavior out of her own frustration and disappointment. Her disappointment comes when I won;t do it for her which is what gets her all upset and pissy? Because it's frick'in hard!! LOL I know that part myself, but I've got nothing for myself, if I have to give to her first..and me second and that simply just doesn't work? What you will get, is a lot more than your realize as well? You'll be getting something by doing it which is learning to be that better person yourself? No one is magically and wonderful person all the time by nature. When the shit hits the fan, most everyone is not at their best? If you can be your best even when the shit hits the fan....you will get something from that, but you have to be the one to do it first...with no guarantees along the way? At the worst you'll fail and you'll still take with you what ever you get. At best you'll succeed and you'll have taken yourself to the next level, even if he doesn't;t follow you? But the part about being co-dependent...will keep saying in your ear..." oh, he doesn't like it...I better stop or I might hurt him?" Or "if I do this, he won't like it. Then I'll have to live with the fallout of what ever he doesn't;t like." All I can say to that is.....fuck that non-sense!! It's not up to him decide what you like or what you don't like...and you aren't living at home with your mamma, and you don't need his permission? His approval, is irrelevant, as long as you know that you are doing right by him, in all other ways including...no tit for tat...getting back or getting even ...and no pouting or playing games to try and make him feel bad for anything else. If your playing games with him as he is doing with you, you are not clean...as they say....so you need to clean your act up and fly right...and do right by him, even if he can't see that you are? He will see it eventually, but only if you stay clean yourself. The hard part, in the face of someone not giving that in return. That that "contributing your best self part forward...which sounds rather harmless or somewhat innocuous just by the word alone? That is getting down and getting dirty and fighting every step of the way. That is the hardest part in all of this...when you yourself do not feel like doing it or feel like he may deserve it....you just have to do it..and grin and bear it until you get to the 50 yard line. The reward comes when you get there, not before? Just like any sporing event in using that reference, you've got to dig down deep and go through the wall as my coach use to say to me in swimming. It's the last half of the race,that's hardest part of all? The beginning is easy, until the bear jumps on your back, all the strength leaves your muscles and all you feel is pain and your mind is screaming at you to quit but you've got nothing left to give? If you can rise to the occasion and do that as often as you can, that will be showing him what your made of, and give him the incentive to follow you? There is no going around the wall, either you go through it, or you stay on this side of the that line. At his end of the field, not yours. It ain't easy but its worth it once you do it.

The best model I can give you, I've included before, but no one speech of way of expressing this does a better job of this one in my mind? This is the model I would follow, and use it for your incentive to get you through when the shit hits the fan. I hope that helps and gives you some ideas with a little incentive to give you something to look forward to? Hopefully. Just don't be a victim to it. That sucks hard too!! If you find yourself blaming, then you're being a victim. Avoid blame at all cost, but forgive yourself when you do? You will do that the same as I do at times, but not too long and I just let is pass on by. In fact, if you're like me and hopefully better than me, I fall down all the time, I've just gotten much better at getting back up when I do? The only difference....I'm far from perfect.

https://youtu.be/-MXMSHHHBek

J

Welcome...TRISU

Submitted by c ur self on Sun, 06/04/2017 - 14:31

Living with a spouse who lives like you say your spouse does..Usually produces some things in us....Mostly Bad :(....Co-dependency usually just starts happening....I really like your post, you seem to be seeing the big picture to a degree....(much better than I use to)

I will suggest a few things that has helped me...Mostly they pissed me off in the beginning, just because I was so blinded my own anger and bitterness...If you will work from this mind-set I think you can improve on your current emotional state which will greatly improve your outlook on life... (No matter what he does) 1) Do your best to not be Co-dependent....(most chronic Co-D people make excuses for why they have to be that way...Recognize excuses you might be making to carry him and discipline your life away from this)...I will tell you this right now, the dependent spouse likes being carried in most cases that I've encountered, so he will probably balk at you for walking away from mothering him..But its the best medicine for him.....

2) Recognize your own needs... good counsel, you need fellowship and you need to breathe!...If you are harboring anger and bitterness as I use to, it will only poison you, and the one's you love the most....I was laying on a hospital stretcher w/ my heart jumping around and I didn't know how to stop the anxiety and the stress...It was quiet scary...I had prayed about it, but, I had to realize that I didn't want to let it go.."It was my protection"...Once I realized that, over the next six months I was able to release it and be healed....

I want overwhelm you with an unrealistic list....But, what you will find out is...As you learn to walk away from all co-dependency, it alone will create accountability in him. It will hold him accountable...You want have to worry about leaving him...If it's not in his heart to be committed, loving and a working part of the marriage, he will look for someone else to use up, once you stop enabling him....

Also it is vital you consider and care for your own mental health, no one else will....Do not allow his choices to control you....Live your life, and live well!...Practice being Thankful;)...And refuse to ever allow yourself victim thoughts...We can only impact our own hearts and minds.....Remember this....Our thinking of thoughts = feelings with in us, which produces our words and behaviors....Cut the snake's head off at the thoughts...Do not allow his life to dominate your mind or life...Breathe!

I will pray for you!

Thanks for the feedback. Still - ewe

Submitted by TheRestIsStillU... on Wed, 06/07/2017 - 08:22

Thanks all for the feedback, from the "me too" comments to the "hold yourself accountable" end of the spectrum.

At the highest level my challenge is that I see it as a double-bind, a no win. If I spoke to my younger self at this juncture, I say "stop reading, stop learning, stop working, just RUN. Run and don't look back; there are 7 Billion people - choose a non-adhd partner, period. That's the bottom line.

In 20+ years I have read every book about every symptom that fell under various umbrellas. We went from "family of origin" pattern issues, to passive-aggressive issues, to insecure attachment concepts to marriagebuilders.com to love languages, to a therapist with practical applied instructions, to behavioral work, to contracts and agreements ... and on an on. Each was a 'fresh new start' and I was saying no, building other circles, setting boundaries more and more every year.

In the last 5 years I've been focused on my own mindfulness and self-compassion work (you can see my one and only youtube video listed as "Easy 'actionable' mindfulness and self-compassion ritual everyone can use"). Though I'd love to spend time with my spouse, I consciously schedule social activities with friends, I do much w/o my spouse & I pursue my own interests and I don't 'engage' when he has a tantrum, a silent tantrum, or a passive aggressive or stonewalling tantrum. I differentiate and separate his drama from me; I say is "that's an interesting choice you're making; it's not my way, however." (Language he knows from therapy and reading.)

He had a massive emotional dysregulation issue New Years Eve so I ended up going to a family party solo, with the kids (were having a friendly family chat and he blew up and stomped out of the room - leaving my kids and me sitting there, hurt that a happy family moment turned into us being deemed evil and him being injured angry victim).

I had made it clear to him "I don't beg anymore and I don't invest my time in people who treat me or my kids like non-persons. So I'm going to the party without you." It's sad to go to New Year's Eve w/o one's spouse (and deal with people asking where your spouse is when he was RSVP'd - and I also set a boundary that I refuse to lie for him/enable - so I find a polite but truthful way to say he was not able to attend). But I am sticking with boundaries that I'd only engage with and invest time in people who are respectful (or at least recognize behavior and say sorry.)

Prior to NYE - the week before Christmas he (silently) got his ego hurt - did not talk to me about it - which is what our 20 yrs of therapy taught him: he's supposed to say "when you said X yesterday, it made me feel Y... " He said nothing - but let the anger rage in him, stonewalled me for a week and refused to speak to me, and acted angry and huffy at me the entire week before Xmas. My stomach was sick but I held up, went to yoga, got massages, connected with others, hugged my kids. But Xmas Eve-Eve we went to a show, and driving back to the hotel he laughed heartily with kids - and then when I asked a question about logistics, he gave me an angry silent look, disregarded me, and then happily chatted to the kids about how great the hotel was that we were staying at & that they'd go swimming together. We checked in, I stayed in the room while they went swimming, I ordered room service and was near asleep when they got back. Next day we drove back, again, him angry-silent with me all morning, and overtly chatty with kids. I got back to house, unpacked, and said "I'm going out; your silent and angry behavior at me is not something I welcome and so I'm going to seek positive connections." ..... Then he blew up yelling that "I was really going to leave my kids on CHRISTMAS EVE?"

I felt hurt, punished and sick - and then explained to him. "I've done my mindfulness breathing in the room, and I feel unsafe with you and your anger issues; what is important is what I feel right now, You are right that it's sad that because my husband won't be kind to me, I'm choosing to spend time away from the house on Christmas Eve, but it's important I have safe and positive connections, so yes, it's sad, but I'm going out now. I'll be back later."

I got home 7 pm - he was still silent, watching tv. I called the kids to come open their 1 Xmas eve gift. They opened it them and we built these little electronic things together. Then they went to bed - eventually my husband went to sleep with my youngest. KNOWING it's Christmas Eve and parents do the "elf work" after the kids go to bed. Did my husband get up to help? No - at midnight I was up pulling things out, making things magical. (It is part of his punishment/anger; he uses the kids' potential hurt as a way to hurt me?) And so then Christmas morning - me all alone - he wakes up and when the kids see the gifts he says "Merry Christmas!" to them. If I'd not put out gifts - that would not have happened. Then in full BS mode says to me "Good Morning!!!" Gut kick. Tears for me Xmas morning. BUT - I worked hard to determine in that day what I NEEDED out of it - me and the kids - the rest of the day wasn't great, I felt ill, had 1-1 discussion with my husband... things degraded. But after that he admitted the anger, abuse, games (as he always does) - but by New Years Eve, as noted above - he went right back to emotional disregulation WITH blame of us, not him.

He's since gone to a 'live in' place for treatment/therapy, and other things. I consider myself cohabiting, emotionally trying to build my own life, working on myself, identifying my needs and barriers - lots and lots of self work, evolution, strength, changes, connections, positiveness, outreach, building connections, taking risks... Lots on my part. Very strong transition away from codependency. (And my younger is in therapy b/c he's having nightmares about us and has become self critical (food issues) in a very unhealthy way and so yes - it's damaging the kids - if you research "adult children of dysfunction" they are hurt for life - and NOW is when it happens - in youth; it's insane to say the kids will bend with the wind; they are in absolute need of support and stability and healing.) I have an ongoing mindfulness coach, other support, and am doing my own career / personal / extracurricular activities, meetups etc.

ALL OF THIS SAID - (re: my original post) - even with allllllllllllllllll of this work to be non-codependent, to completely build a life and go forth as I'm doing.... when I read any of the "stay in marriage" concepts - every bit of it says to me "you are dying a slow death no matter how well you manage the situation. You are always LESS THAN THE REAL/NATIVE YOU. LEAVE the adhd spouse!"

Even with all my work on myself, in the end it's still like saying a car is a "horseless carriage." Stop being a good little student of non-codependency with an ADHD spouse, stop trying to be a horseless carriage, just be a freakin' car!

Even as I created a login to this site, even as I purchased the 3 ADHD spouse books I just read, I thought "I'm still trying to avoid getting hurt by the whirling dervish. What if I throw out the books, don't log into the websites, and just leave the disordered ADHD black hole?"

Here's my book on ADHD Spouses: SEE DICK LIE. SEE JANE RUN.

Sorry folks. Someone's got to say this. When you watch interviews of experts giving advice on ADHD marriages, do you really feel hopeful? For every bit of advice, can you like me, think of times when you've said exactly what they recommend, yet it blows up and becomes extremely chaotic and hurtful?

"Try harder to.... understand.... think.... be mindful.... be patient.... let him..... help him..... help yourself." But when he's not around, you don't have to do that. Life is just life. A flat tire is simply a flat tire. A scratch in the paint is just a project. It's no biggy, just life's normal hills and valleys. Imagine that world...

~ The Rest is Still Unwritten

So true

Submitted by adhd32 on Wed, 06/07/2017 - 11:36

Why does everyone else have to be understanding and patient? How should you feel about an ADD spouse when you receive a frantic call from your son who is waiting outside of school for 45 minutes at 7pm in 10 degree weather for H to show and H isn't answering his phone? Understanding? Patient? And what is supposed to happen once the situation is resolved and everyone is home and there no apology, just an excuse that H forgot and didn't hear the phone because the radio was too loud? How well would H receive this same scenario? I doubt he would be forgiving or understanding. We are not to talk about his mistakes only everyone else's errors and foibles. He will turn any focus on himself back to me or point out my errors in an effort to deflect. I am always at fault for everything that happens yet nothing is his fault.

I dread Christmas because it is a time H checks out. It must be related to something negative from his childhood. Our kids are grown now but he never, not once, helped in any way with preparations or gifts etc. I did everything, as you did, every year. So the expert advise is to leave H to be responsible for his part. If I did that my kids would have woken up to nothing under the tree! Should the kids be understanding that Santa forgot them? This past Christmas morning he was stomping around the house, irritated and complaining. We were to go visit family for the day. I finally had enough and said I wasn't having it and he should stay home if he couldn't act like an adult instead of a 12 year old. I wasn't going to be understanding and I don't care about the reason. Put on your big boy pants, act like an adult, and be ready or stay home alone and stew in your own juices. Sometimes it is easier to go alone and not have to be concerned about a loose cannon.

H loves the silent treatment too. In order to avoid confrontation he will be aloof and I am expected to know what is wrong. Last bout of this I asked if I did something to upset him and he said no. Fine, you aren't punishing anyone but yourself. If it isn't important enough to discuss like an adult I guess it isn't important. I carried on with my life, who knows what it was. Probably got a ticket and didn't want to tell me or the grown kids didn't answer his texts and he felt ignored. I think the bottom line is there is no change and all the understanding is on you. How much more can one take before they throw in the towel?

Agreed - If we are the support to him, we should get paycheck

Submitted by TheRestIsStillU... on Wed, 06/07/2017 - 14:13

I have seen this logic. Learning, changing, doing, learning to NOT react to 'walk him down' - all is non-self care for the non-adhd spouse. It is self abuse. I would not let anyone I know to deny their own needs in such a way. I imagine me handling a tantrum, seeing how hard it is to do the right thing etc. But imagine a psych ward patient; their caretaker has a BREAK ROOM to go to where peer employees say "Wow, Joe is having a bad tantrum day today, huh?! Is it five o'clock yet?" There would be breaks with support and normalcy. And at 5:00, the psych ward caretaker would GO HOME and be able to say "Honey, I'm so glad to be home! <Hug> Boy is it good to see a normal person I can share my evening with. There was this one patient at work today and he was exhausting and really rough. I'll be back to deal with him tomorrow, but for now it's so great to share the evening with you and co-parent our children." (And the psych ward employee gets a paycheck!) That would make sense! But the non-self-care and selflessness in not human. The videos and books just speak so much of this 'understanding' - and even boundaries really lead to a strong woman having to live a sad solo life - yes with friends and support, but not with a trustworthy, supportive partner. I ask myself "if it was a do-over, would I go on a second date with this guy." Some days (and I've told my husband this); "This behavior is not something that would lead any woman to go on a second date. Why would I?" It just gets insane. Imagine going on a first date and the guy huffs and puffs and stonewalls. No second date and you'd take your own cab home.

So I say to all of us - self care and self compassion are primary. Building your safe environment and inviting in only what you'd want more of. If he is acting like a "patient" send him to the professionals who 1. get paid for that and 2. get lunch breaks and evening breaks from it.

His meds are doing wonders (after 20+ years it scares me - he's saying really mature things like "I need to not use the kids as my tag along, I need to create my own adult relationships - really mature?!?). But the many years of 'stuff' make me very hypervigiliant. I may recover, but I do NOT want it reliant upon him being in a good place, which is why I still am afraid to really depend on him as a spouse. But if I don't have 365 days of normal, I'm giving up in exactly 365 days. I have a day tracker in front of me on my desk. A 365 count down. And a (5th) signed document from him, which I've put in a pretty frame on my desk, his signature that he promises that for the first time every in 20 years, he will give me 365 non-lying days (lying is his primary vice). So I'm not codependent; I'm moving forward positively, and it will be his behavior that either allows him to continue to keep up with me as a mature adult, or decide that he falls away.

I really think so much of the support and messaging and books miss the entire boat in terms of what we really go through, and need as far as really solid boundaries. Would you like someone drag your friend, sister, child through what you've gone through? Self care, self compassion.

We don't need to whine and throw selfish tantrums down at their level. But we do need to get balls. :) We are people too. We only have a few precious years or decades left on this earth.

~ The Rest Is Still Unwritten

Some way to have to live

Submitted by adhd32 on Wed, 06/07/2017 - 15:11

Marriage is supposed to be two people working toward a common goal. Its not one person doing whatever and the other one being understanding and responsible. I'm not sure having to have all these boundaries indicates a good partnership, to me it indicates I have to protect myself from my spouse. How is that a partnership when there is no trust and you cannot rely on your partner?

It's not cut and dried when impairments are present....Is it??

Submitted by c ur self on Fri, 12/01/2017 - 10:43

(Marriage is supposed to be two people working toward a common goal.)

It is, and it should be....But! If you are playing tennis or any sport w/ someone w/ a physical impairment...The product of their performance (even though there effort is good) will be lacking in most cases to a physically fit person....So my question to your statement is this....What should we expect from someone who's mind is effected at a level that they can't perform in school, or hold a job w/o drugs?

I do know first hand that as a spouse we can be emotional effected by these minds, and what many seem capable or incapable of when it comes to being an attentive marriage partner....

An answer

Submitted by adhd32 on Fri, 12/01/2017 - 12:27

This is not a tennis game. It is my life. To give a spouse with ADD a pass because they are mentally impaired is a mistake as it does not give them any incentive to learn new behaviors. What I expect, even now that I now know my H is not capable of some things, is respect and partnership. What I expect is a bit of appreciation. What I expect is for H to step up and own his screw-ups, instead of blaming everyone else. What I expect is for H to ask for help if he can't fix things, instead of concealing his errors and making things 100 times worse. What I expect is someone who does what they say they will do when they say they will do it, after all, he expects this of me. What I expect from a grown-ass man is to contribute when things become overwhelming instead of hiding in his man-cave leaving things to fall on my shoulders. What I expect is someone to pick up the heavy end once in a while. What I expect are the same courtesies expected from me. These are normal everyday expectations for any adult and to expect less would be enabling him. What is the point of a marriage without expectations for support and respect?

I agree

Submitted by vabeachgal on Fri, 12/01/2017 - 14:03

I do agree with this. I've asked my H several times if he felt that I would ever:

- make decisions without him in mind

- take a course of action that was likely to hurt him or put him at a disadvantage

- lie to him

- attempt to cheat on him, etc.

- not keep my word

etc. etc. The answer was no. I don't think the ADHD is a hall pass to act horribly and without regard for another person. You are spot on when you say your H EXPECTS more of you - more than he gives in return. I see this in my own life.

I think you may have misunderstood me...

Submitted by c ur self on Fri, 12/01/2017 - 19:29

I think anyone here who know's me, knows I'm not talking about giving our adult partners w/ adhd a pass or enabling them...As a matter of fact I'm not addressing them at all, I'm addressing us...What I'm saying is, expectations placed on someone who by their actions of unconcern (no attempt to change) don't care what you expect...Unless we direct our life's course and our thoughts concerning them on this reality, our expectations will only destroy us.... The ones placing the expectation...they are fine...

I understand

Submitted by vabeachgal on Sat, 12/02/2017 - 08:33

I understand what you are saying. There is a clash of expectstions because I do have some basic, boundary-based expectations. Dont lie to me. Communicate honestly. Dont hide things from me. Dont make major decisions without consulting. Dont hide debt. None of those things are specifically or solely related to adhd. My expectations around other adhd behavior are realistic. However, when a partner uses an adhd diagnosis as a hall pass for what I consider felonious marital transgressions ... well.

"Hall pass"

Submitted by Lynn-lost on Sat, 12/02/2017 - 09:58

Exactly-so here I am, five years after diagnosis and living with his "stuff" for 23 years, getting divorced. He would not get treatment, ex for Adderall, which he abused. Then, ran up credit cards buying junk that he hoarded, had an affair, and, became a dope dealer!

I agree Vabeachgal

Submitted by c ur self on Sat, 12/02/2017 - 11:07

But your list of expectations isn't adhd related...It's love and commitment related...It's difficult to live with someone who isn't committed, someone we can't fully trust....And it's difficult to walk away also....But, at some point we must decide....Am I going to submit myself to this behavior, and all that does to negatively impact what is suppose to be a loving relationship, or am I going to DO something about it?

The question is a simple one really? But following through on the answer is what scares us....

Good question.

Submitted by overwhelmed wif... on Fri, 12/01/2017 - 16:14

I don't think anyone would call this a partnership. And I don't think Melissa advocates only one person doing the work. One of the foundations of her work is that the ADHD partner must be effectively treating the ADHD. Not just taking pills and hoping for the best, not promising to get treatment, but effectively treating the ADHD. My partner is toying with treating ADHD, but it is not effective. I look at your question and your statement about two people working toward a common goal and I know that I am not in a good partnership. My question is, how long do I give him to get serious about effective treatment before I leave him?

Good question.

Submitted by overwhelmed wif... on Fri, 12/01/2017 - 16:45

Since lying is also my

Submitted by vabeachgal on Wed, 06/07/2017 - 15:36

Since lying is also my husband's greatest vice, I'll be watching this thread with great interest to see how everything goes for you. Wish you the best. Being the recipient of lies is truly demoralizing and made more so when literature includes suggestions that we somehow create, by our actions and reactions, a fertile ground for the lying to occur. Most people don't lie all the time and don't take advantage of perceived opportunity. I fully reject that I am the cause of his lying. More so, as time goes on, I reject the guilt trip and self beating associated with those suggestions. I am not responsible for alleviating a lifetime of shame if that's what's causing it nor can I fix him if it's related to some other comorbid condition. If he wants to do the work, I'll help him with it, but he hasn't shown that he wants to.

There is a lot of advice out there for handling a lying spouse. None of it has worked for me.

1. Confront. Resulted in denial and crazy making. He became angry. Very, very angry. He denied that things I saw, heard and experienced happened. He threatened to leave because I "didn't believe him". At the end, he played chicken with me, crossing every boundary I set up until my only line in the sand left was divorce. He knew at the time that I didn't want to go there and took advantage of that when pushing through. Result: fear, instability, anxiety, etc. the plan worked very well for him, not me until I was okay with divorce.

2. Internalize. Yep. I went through a pretty long period of internalizing and rationalizing. Why would he lie to me? What's wrong with me? What am I doing to cause this? Doesn't he love me enough/at all because he's doing this? Am I so awful that he doesn't think I deserve truth? Result: serious depression and hopelessness. Truly awful times.

4. Accept/Ignore. I kind of lump these 2 together. I can accept that he's lying to me and own my reactions to it. I can accept that is who he is and how he chooses to conduct himself. Separate myself and create boundaries. The advantage was that I no longer felt responsible but the boundaries and separation made me lonely. I was still the recipient of lies and the associated emotions didn't go away. Result: hopelessness and thinking this was the best it's going to get? Fear for the future.

4a. subcategory of working on myself and owning my behavior. I did. H treated it as a get out of jail free card, not a wake up call. If I was not complaining or nagging and was a genuine pleasure to be around, there was no problem. Nothing to see here. Problem did not exist.

5. Demand compliance. Demand cooperation with those things that were vital such as finances and dating sites. Well, you can't force someone to cooperate. Result: more of same and crushing disappointment each and every time something new came up. A very real fear for my future.

6. Accept that there is an identifiable problem with ADHD. It doesn't mean anything if H won't get treatment and medication and agree to put the work in. Result; circle back through numbers 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5.

No, I would not want anyone I care about, or even barely care about, to go through all of this.

Spot on!

Submitted by Lynn-lost on Sun, 08/20/2017 - 13:59

Confronted my husband on lying this morning....denial denial denial, until I produced evidence of the truth. then rationalizations, one after the other...even trying to blame me??....sigh...Sorry you experience the same shit, but your post about what doesn't work to address it is helpful.It's up to him, and has every excuse not to get treatment. I don't wanna hang around for "someday" or hear about the family history of lying anymore. Buddy, you are 64 yrs old! Grow up and cut the crap!

Crazy train

Submitted by spaceycasey on Sat, 12/02/2017 - 04:23

the real question is why he feels the need to lie to you.

He might not have been doing anything wrong in his eyes, or in most people’s eyes.... but ocd partners nag about the ketchup on the wrong shelf.

so are you sure that you are not the cause of his need to feel lying is better?

He lies consistently, to

Submitted by vabeachgal on Sat, 12/02/2017 - 08:46

He lies consistently, to everyone. He lies most often to me because i m around him the most. Most of his lies to others are inconsequential, so no one calls him on it. Many of his lies to me are big, to cover up big transgressions. He is not lying to me because I am OCD and nag about the placement of items in the kitchen. He probably does lie to make himself feel better, but that does not mean that I am the catalyst, rather that he feels an internal need to make himself feel better.

Nope

Submitted by Lynn-lost on Sat, 12/02/2017 - 10:01

No, lots more going on. I know what you mean, but I am more relaxed than the ketchup on the shelf thing. STBX turned out to have BPD.

Exactly. I also believe that

Submitted by vabeachgal on Sat, 12/02/2017 - 11:03

Exactly. I also believe that there is a lot more going on. It's hard to know one another personally on this site. However, I can say with 100% honesty that my name and OCD have never spontaneously occurred in the same sentence. Things like a carton of milk left on the counter simply do not put my knickers in a twist. I've considered BPD also. I try to refrain from armchair diagnosis of STBX.

Here's where the danger was with me: I personalized his lying. I spent a lot of time beating myself up about it and wondering why he lied to me, why I wasn't deserving of the truth, why he couldn't love me enough to be truthful, wasn't I loved then?, what was I doing to cause the lying?, was I not considerate and supportive?... then I tried to be MORE considerate and supportive. It was a very negative cycle. STBX took advantage of the personal doubt that was created. I understand that some relationship dynamics can sort of cause and definitely contribute to lying but it took me a long time and, to be honest, some real periods of self-loathing to figure out that I might not be the cause of lying in this marriage. You just cannot accept lies or ignore lies without damaging your own self esteem.

So, when someone randomly says, hey, are you sure you're not causing this by being OCD? Well, then, sure, my knickers get in a twist.

To be clear, I am not talking about leaving milk on the counter or even forgetting to pick up the kids. These are real serious lies with real serious consequences.

add cures ocd...

Submitted by c ur self on Sat, 12/02/2017 - 11:22

You will be just thankful you can find a spot in the whole frig. to squeeze in a bottle of ketchup...LOL....

adhd32

Submitted by c ur self on Wed, 06/07/2017 - 17:44

Just reading your post...and so many others here...Most all of our situations are a like in that our spouses can't just calmly and thankfully be a part of the family... It has to be about them, what they want, or you never hear the end of it...They will ruin ever vacation, event or anything else they can't control or make about themselves...It is absolutely amazing!!!

Just like spoiled minor children...I truly believe they will someday find out something in the brain never develops for some people....And when you confront them, (in my experience anyway) someone who lives and behaves like you state here...They will most always turn confrontational, blaming, and deny the reality of their own behaviors....It's amazing, it's like they have no awareness of their own actions...

I know everyone is different to a degree....But the similarities is uncanny....

I follow your posts

Submitted by adhd32 on Wed, 06/07/2017 - 21:30

They are all the same. I, me, mine, it's all about them...always! I saw ADHD referred to as Adult Diapered Hedonistic Disease somewhere on these forums . My feeling is ADHD is some type of brain damage/abnormality. I actually came to this conclusion watching videos of Dr. Russell Barkley. But knowing the reason isn't very comforting. In fact, it is rather depressing knowing that H is probably incapable of lasting change.

adhd32

Submitted by c ur self on Thu, 06/08/2017 - 00:07

It's not everyone who is effected, not even close...I've meet people who openly discuss their adhd and the effects it has on them. But the difference is the denial and unwillingness to own their behaviors...I have a son in law..That is effected, but is someone that most who meet him just loves him...My daughter say's when he does something that he regrets due to distraction he just gets mad or aggravated at himself...Never at her or others...

I can't speak for others, and I know on a sliding scale 1-10 my wife is probably between a 6-10 in several areas. But adhd is still not to blame for her lack of effort in the marriage. If my wife dropped the denial and Prideful posturing. .Humbled herself and went to an adhd coach/therapist..She would be a different person in a short time.... She just refuses to see her self, and is just locked into the blame mindset, it's sad...

I really like what has been said on this thread over all....The question we (people married to spouses who are in denial) should be asking isn't what do I do about my spouse?....That question is and illusion of control...There is nothing I can do about her...The question I need to ask myself ( and have been quiet some time now) is the one being addressed in this thread, How do I live well, (peacefully) without resentment, and without being a victim myself?

When we master that, then we leave our spouses no choice but to carry their own weight in most things...It's very hard though....Because it's the toughest love you will ever dole out...And you will have to learn to be content without intimacy or companionship in most cases....You will have to learn to put up w/ the pouting the silence and be wise enough to not get dragged into unfruitful dialog....

Yep, we can take our lives back, we just have to refuse to enable....And be calm doing it....:)

It is not a marriage

Submitted by adhd32 on Thu, 06/08/2017 - 10:10

Life without companionship and intimacy is not marriage. If I can't depend on someone to always have my back, have my best interests in mind and take one for the team once in a while, that isn't marriage. That, to me, is living with a vengeful roommate. Marriage by definition is " the UNION of two people as partners".

There are many types of ADD. I am addressing the type which manifests with prideful, selfish, unyielding characteristics which drive relationships apart. Maybe living with someone who has a different type of ADD, or someone willing to work on being a partner would be easier, I can not say.

I agree, adhd32, it is not a marriage

Submitted by Chevron on Thu, 06/08/2017 - 13:43

I totally agree with you, that if a marriage partner does not want to be with me, or share with me in good times and bad, if that marriage partner does not have my back and I have his, if he doesn't care in active ways about my wellbeing, and I do his, no it's not a marriage.

I've been round and round with conservative friends over whether or not a marriage exists because there's been a wedding, or because there's a piece of paper that says a wedding happened, or because civil law says that the couple is married and bound under law to treat their childen and assets and debts in certain ways. I have conservative friends who say that a marriage exists if there has been a church wedding. I have liberal, non religious friends who say that there is a marriage because civil law has been satisfied, and civil law certifies the union as a marriage; the legal condition the two are in, under law, means that they're married.

I disagree with these views, and am on your page, adhd32. As I and my husband understand it, we entered marriage before God, and we're living before God ... which increases the pressure....you can run but you can't hide.... :)

Regardless of what I think about God and weddings, I'm on your page: if people don't share life, don't share the work of living, don't help each other out, as you say, don't pay attention to each other, don't remember each other, don't both receive and GIVE, don't want to be with each other, and all the rest, in my opinion they are not doing a marriage.

To me marriage is not a religious or civil state that you enter, it's a relationship; and relationships are something that you do, not something that you have. I'm pretty traditional but I disagree with my conservative friends who say once you tie the knot in church you're married. No you're not.

Shoot if people can turn their back on God, and they can; it's called apostasy; it's having had a relation with God and walking away from it; they can sure turn their back and not do relationships in this world.

You not only have to talk the talk, you have to walk the walk. You can't leave out walking that walk.

This is a challenge to me, because I'm intending to go the whole way, all the way to death with my husband. We've got plenty of time, unless the Roll Call gets called up yonder on us early, to get lazy, wander away from each other, descend into selfishness and so on. My husband and I can fail here; we've got a marathon to run. As the hymns say, God is my shelter in storms and the one to wipe away my tears; He's not my marital pooper scooper or Mr. Fixit cleaning up after things that I've done to harm people, relationships and myself. It would be foolish to expect that God would be like a fairy queen, bopping my husband on his head to make him change. My husband and I have a long haul here, and I so agree with you, there's no marriage being lived, if my husband and I don't share, work, seek, challenge etc each other. The training wheels are off. Marriages with ADHD, and ADHD/nonADHD in them have some challenges, and as I'm running into them, some of the challenges are hard, even without extra trouble in the relation

Its just a piece of paper, if we don't do it.

To stay with the God talk for a minute more, A few of my conservative friends disagree with me on this one, but a wedding ceremony is not the powerful thing that makes a marriage a marriage. God doesn't make marriages. To get biblical about it, the Bible says God joined the couple in marriage. It does NOT say that God makes, that is creates, builds, fosters the marriage. The two people in relation co- make it. A marriage is a union, as C often says, where 2 are 1. Can't be one with someone in principle. That's not how oneness works, I don't think. I think it requires acts of sharing, and building.

You wrote: There are many types of ADD. I am addressing the type which manifests with prideful, selfish, unyielding characteristics which drive relationships apart. Maybe living with someone who has a different type of ADD, or someone willing to work on being a partner would be easier, I can not say. "

I married a man with ADHD who is willing to work on being a partner.. But I get absolutely no credit for that. He brought that desire, plus the moral practices, like persistence, courage, (ADHD version) patience, and effort to communicate with me across our difference into the marriage. He already owned these desires and habits before we got married.

I agree /w everything you say here Chevy:) It's a nice post...

Submitted by c ur self on Thu, 06/08/2017 - 19:20

But, there are many adults who live in a mind that is incapable of this kind of oneness, even if they wanted it....I married one, of course I didn't know it then, but that part isn't her fault...

I believe what you say is true

Submitted by Chevron on Thu, 06/08/2017 - 19:55

I was incapable of that kind of oneness in my first marriage. I was as bent and immature then as some of the denier-avoiders described in posts. We'll see how it goes now.

I think the way you're pursuing is what we're called toward, regardless.

...as a friend of mine says, blessings on you...

I'm just tired of the unceasing chaos and drama.....

Submitted by c ur self on Fri, 06/09/2017 - 00:36

The tidal waves of Ups and Downs....I'm sea sick. lol...My life (my way of thinking) has changed concerning the reality of what has and does go on in this marriage...I'm not sure she will ever be any different, nor do I think she will ever seek third party help for how she lives and thinks...I think she thinks she is hopeless to change...

Every instruction the counselor gave her the 8.5 months we went she ignored, or just don't have the capability to adjust her thinking and behaviors...And when I point these things out, she just ignores me...When I've tried to have awareness conversations over the years....She always deflects and starts interrupting and picking a part any thing I say...It's' my tone, my facial features, my grammar or she don't have time to talk if it's any type of serious tone...I'm just done w/ the efforts...But, she has plenty of time if I want to set beside her while she flips TV channels and watches her recorded soap opera's...While I fetch food and snacks at her whim...I am just tired....Not a victim, I am a blessed beyond measure, but it's up to her now...No husband can help his wife w/ wife commitments...Just like no wife can help her husband with his...it takes two to tango:)....When we get so lazy that we refuse to put any energy into our spouse's, we probably don't deserve one....

I told her about 4 or 5 months ago that I wasn't going to live in a home or be in a relationship where we bite and devour one another...I refuse, I told her I had peace to leave now, if that was going to be the product of our later years together...She knows I meant it...She still has her empty house, she can pile all her stuff around her, and get old moving about on a trail...And she can live out the remainder of her life in this independent life style she has chosen, without seeing my face as a reminder she is a wife...And I can clean the house and shop and actually have rooms fit for company again! YaY...LOL...

But I also know for the conflict to end and stay dead, that is totally up to me...I'm the one who must withdraw from my attempts to seek what hasn't been there for 9 years...There is nothing left undone by me as for as I know when it comes to positive efforts to show love, speak love, and encourage with honest effort, energy and the gospel....I'm not trying to say I'm a super husband, but, I've come to the place I'm just lost on anyway to move forward with just my own actions...I've really been at this place for a quiet some time...I'm not mad at her....It's just who she is...I love her and want the best for her...But I've come to realize that's not the responsibilities of a wife...

I'm finally at peace....

The proverbial fork in the road

Submitted by adhd32 on Fri, 06/09/2017 - 10:28

What to choose? A life of full of uncertainty and hope. Or more of the same, bound to duty and unfulfilled? The next step is yours, you know where she stands. We all know it is easier said than done.

Did you edit?

Submitted by vabeachgal on Fri, 06/09/2017 - 10:13

Chevron:

Did you edit this post? I swear I read something else after you first posted and it was something beneficial that needed to be said.

Hi, vabeachgal

Submitted by Chevron on Fri, 06/09/2017 - 14:02

Yes, I always do edit. Sorry for that. I do my posting nearly always from an Ipad, not a desktop. On my Ipad, it's much more hunt and peck. Combined with that, various things like autoedits and spellcheckers that I haven't figured out how to turn off plus the 1" slot we have to write our comment in, and my tendency to "write long", I don't often pick up, until I see the whole thing, whether or not I've made typos, or (maddenly often), some function has autocorrected a phrase into gibberish, or I've written something intolerably long. So yup I do sit there and look at what typing hath wrought and edit and clean up. I do sometimes take out something to shorten it down to something less than a Wall 'O Words

Thanks for the care and asking. I think I'm going to switch to posting from my desktop computer, on which it will be easier to type and to compose before I put the thing up, and then once up, just leave it as is.

All good wishes vabeachgirl.

I agree it's no marriage....

Submitted by c ur self on Thu, 06/08/2017 - 19:12

But what happens when you point that out to the prideful, selfish, spouse with the unyielding characteristics you are talking about here?? What happens to your countenance, when they want accept their behavior as theirs, but instead, spin's your attempt to point out their destructive behavior as your fault, most every time?? What kind of conversation ensues after that??

Sure it's not what marriage was created to be...Not even close...But I've had enough self inflicted pain in my life trying to point out to a closed mind locked in denial that they need to change...And, all the insults and name calling I've endured for my efforts....So I'm going to live peacefully, (with her or without her) and still be open and loving as I possibly can. (Do what God requires of me)....But I also know I will have to walk away many times and realize that she is completely incapable of self awareness or ownership of her actions....

I'm done pointing it out to my own determent....Your right it's no marriage, but until something changes it is what it is....

You're seeking to follow the Master

Submitted by Chevron on Thu, 06/08/2017 - 19:40

We vowed to do that in sickness and in health.

I respect the path you're treading.

so true..eggshells

Submitted by MrsADD on Tue, 12/05/2017 - 10:57

I feel the same. I am willing to take classes learn about adhd correct my own co-dependent behaviors that have been enabeling him (I feel out of necessity rather than a genuine like for doing so but maybe that is me excusing my behavior). I am tired. Grow up. Take responsibility. I think when the ADHD spouse refuses to take action to take classes with you, learn about their condition and how it reflects your relationship then you are never going to get anywhere. You are always walking on eggshells! You are always wrong to have an opinion, a voice, an acation b/c it depends on the emotion or focus of the moment this person has how they will react. I found your Christmas story interesting. This is every holiday for me. As a co dependent I kept thinking it was my fault I had to make it better but no matter what I did it was never right. He checked out, I do it all. Any change however short or long it lasts is never easy it is met with a battle of the wills. I ask him to parent he fights me. Then finally he does his job. Ask for help with a chore, he fights me, then finally does it. I am tired of fighting for asking for partnership! I feel like dealing with someone like this you are always on eggshells, can't say a word for fear of causing and argument. As some said in these posts I crave being alone. Wish he would run off with another woman or something just get out of my life with his annoying behaviors! You can't play with someone if they don't play well with others!

The dynamic

Submitted by Chevron on Wed, 06/07/2017 - 16:37

Rest,

I'm glad you're naming what has been and is going on. I wish that when I was younger, I had had the courage to do truthtelling like what you've been writing.. But I didn't have your courage then, which meant that I hid from myself and avoided taking risks that I ended up having to take later, when I was weaker, because I had added more years under my belt of tolerating what I shouldnt have, and selling myself out. I wish I had had your courage earlier in my life

Looking unsparingly at the truth and acting in truth is hard.

Wishing you well in your battle

It sounds like he's being destabilized...or better, his addiction to the old dynamic is being destabilized...by your changes. Every time you opt to not get sucked into his punitive silences, its throwing his balance off and it sounds like he's fighting like a cat to "get you back where you were with himOr that's how what you wrote telling you how what you wrote reads to me.

I'm not in it now. I've been through one drastically bad relation, where the guy did everything he could think of...like yours, playing on my past decency, or on the weak parts of me that he knew about, you name it, call me names, embarrass me in front of others, lie, cheat and steal, once he figured that would upset me.p and have a chance of sucking me back to the old ways.I didnt have kids so he didnt try to guilt me with them.

He wanted the old, docile,useable me back, and fought hard to get me to stop the kind of work on myself you're doing.

When is it time to stay in a relation and when is it time to get away from one that drags you down? I dont know. You'll know.

Me, I stayed too long in mine, stuck in the belief that the right thing to do was try to be his friend.. Depends on who you are, depends on who you're with.

Ho w long is good to remain and try for better in a relation.Call me stubborn but it took years before I accepted that mine had no intention of doing anything other than what he had always done to me. Why did I think that me taking the higher road and getting stronger would magically change our dynamic when he didnt want me as I was working on being, he wanted me stuck like glue to his choices for himself? That was him and me.

its hard, really hard. It was one of the hardest things I've ever done not to give up and slide back into the controlling power of his illness. It may be that your husband will see the light and start his own work. I think people do have that in them, but it's up to them. It may be on the other hand that your husband's sickness of mind will make him act mercilessly to break the new you. If that happens it'll be the illness in him trying to keep you captured, because it, the immaturity and or illness rules him at present? You're on the way to health, and changing what he has depended on from you, and its destabilizing what he has been doing to you. He's not getting the same satisfactions, that he did, from doing things to you, because you're not participating in his patterns like you did.

(Edited to add that I've now read the update you posted higher up in the thread, while I was hunt and peck typing this one...I now see that I was writing about things he was doing before he start d his meds and you have laid down what he needs to do, to change and he said he would. I hope it's a fresh start and things go better)

Rest, he may not be able to make it through the passage of letting go of his old ways with you, into new ways with you. I hope he can. It's such a hard thing: its up to him to change or not. In the meantime you: It's very very hard to pursue change on yourself when you're around someone who is so actively trying to reverse the clock of change.

That's one of the crummiest things about a codependent dynamic that I've ever seen: once one of the two starts tackling disconnecting from codependency, the one who wants the old dynamic starts fighting like a cat to get the old dynamic back. I think I read somewhere that it is usual for the partner not wanting to relinquish control to up the ante. I'm so sorry you're having to go through that. (It sounds like you were, earlier; hope he doesnt get into that again)

wish you so well. What you're doing is hard, and takes stamina...as you already know.

You're a truthteller. Answers will come

Amazing Post TRISU

Submitted by c ur self on Wed, 06/07/2017 - 17:24

My post to you; was basically the product I have become; because of the reality you have identified here...One difference for me was I had a wife that passed away at 49 (breast cancer) who I was very close with...So I know how 2=1 works, and that made me press into a closed off, self absorbed mind even more than most (I presume)...Screaming it's not suppose to be this away!! There is a better way!! But the reality you identified seems so fixed, that I had to loose hope, to even start to try to make a life w/ out her for the most part... (Live like she doesn't exist in many ways, because for practical purposes she doesn't)

So like you said in goes the Boundaries (which is a must) No sharing finances....Camping trips w/ friends...Church alone most of the time...Movies and dinner alone....Sex by appointment; that is if she feels like keeping or remembers the appointment....And I always get the hurry up I'm a victim attitude...(It's really not worth it at age 60)...So being alone and avoiding the drama is nice...Just simply living and being thankful...In most marriages it may not suppose to be this away....But in mine, it's the only way for peace and sanity! Sounds like you understand...

Blessings

Right there with you-

Submitted by Lynn-lost on Sun, 08/20/2017 - 14:13

Wish there was an "I commiserate" button...I feel you, 100%. spent hours, days, weeks, months, yrs,,,,trying to get communication, empathy, common courtesy....I'm sorry we have such feelings in common. You are not alone.

I freaking love this!

Submitted by Feathers on Thu, 06/08/2017 - 11:08

This is my first ever post, and I had no intentions of actually posting, just reading and learning, but I have to say I love this post! And thank you! This is me!!!!!!!! This is my life!!!!! This is where I am at after 30 years of marriage. I am exhausted, so very exhausted.

Welcome, Feathers. Glad to

Submitted by PoisonIvy on Thu, 06/08/2017 - 11:38

Welcome, Feathers. Glad to have you but sorry you have to be here.

Thanks!

Submitted by Feathers on Thu, 06/08/2017 - 13:21

I am happy to be here, actually. Somebody gets it! :) Most days I feel like a horrible wife for not accepting my husband for the way he is, and there are times where we do fine, however the days we are fine are because of the fact that I suppress myself just to keep him on an even keel. His ADHD symptoms are part of him and he likes those parts just fine. It's me that has the issues.

surpress to keep even

Submitted by MrsADD on Tue, 12/05/2017 - 11:02

Exactly you roll over and play dead at every moment in order to get through the day. Not healthy for any of us. I came here about 2 years ago and it is the only place I have found other than my therapist I also started seeing 2 years ago thinking I was the crazy one, where I feel like other's get it. They understand this type of relationship sucks! and by this type I mean the ones on here that have spouses who refuse to grow up and take responsibility and work with their spouses to find balance with their adhd and relationships. Praise to those adhd spouses on here who have stepped up to the plate. having adhd is not an excuse, it is a condition that can be worked with. something i have told my H over and over and he refuses to except. would rather take the "i am screwed up just deal with it path."

I'm out.

Submitted by Kitty Jo on Sat, 12/30/2017 - 18:03

I called it quits. It was hard for a couple of months, because I believed all of the things he told me... I'm horrible to live with, I'm too demanding, I'm unreasonable, unloveable. After a lot of soul searching and help from some friends, I found out none of those things were true. It is a relief to be free. I have reclaimed my life. I wish I had found this website many years ago.

Thanks

Submitted by Feathers on Thu, 06/08/2017 - 19:10

For the welcome. :)

We Are Human, too and there IS hope

Submitted by ADHD_Highway_to... on Thu, 06/08/2017 - 16:23

OK, I know I'm in teh lion's den, but I'm the ADHDer and here's my brief perspective. . . .

I can see a lot of anger and resentment inside many of you and can see why. As the ADHDer, all I ask is to be treated with human dignity and not be teh dog you kick when I mess up. Grant you, I DO realize that many of you have not gotten the same in return, so then what? Well, I HAVE changed a LOT, but I WILL mess up - I guarantee you, mainly because I AM human. IF I am working it and mess up, please acknowledge that AND hold me responsible for whatever the mess up is, etc. I'm not looking for any special dispensations or saying that "It wasn't me, it ws my ADHD", etc but it doesn't help things if you use a Buick to swat a fly, either, or berate me, or treat me like "here we go again, there's no hope for you, etc" - again, simple human dignity. I am NOT trying to minimize any of your anger, frustration, etc, especially if your SO isn't doing a darned thing to help themselves. IMHO, I would suggest Al Anon for anyone who feels like they're alone and there's no non-ADHD support groups around you. We do have a tendency to act like an alcoholic . . . being the adult son of one, I know. . ..

HOWEVER, maybe a glimmer of hope for you that all is hopeless. . . . .after I don't know how many years of a rocky marriage and many all out wars with each other and seriously on our last thread of our marriage, we FINALLY got it. My DW went to counseling for herself and I got myself a therapist myself (as well as being on meds for a number of years.). As a result, and a precipitating event that kick started me at teh beginning of the year, our marriage is teh strongest that it has EVER been. We are finally in love with each other again, but on a much higher level. For me, it was having to make the conscious decision to focus on her feelings and taking her feelings into account before I act. For her, I guess it was her realizing I wasn't a TOTAL a$$hole, and that I DID have the capacity to be a partner instead of the 4th child. . . . . . we still have our fights, no doubt, but they are handled a lot better - again, I take her feelings into account, and she's told me that she tries her damnest not to engage with me when I get all ADHDy, etc - tough as nails from wht I can tell - sometimes she just tells me "I can't even - this conversation is over since you're not being productive," and physically removes herself from the area.

I don't know if this helps anyone or gives anyone hope, but I hope it does - especially since I had many a therapist tell me to get a divorce and this relationship was over. . . . . maybe my ADHD worked FOR me because my procrastination & "laziness" prevented me from taking that step? BTW, even though my DW said that she pretty much had 1 foot out the door, she said that her stubbornness prevented her from giving up. . . healthy? I don't know, but somehow it worked.

Your message doesn't give me

Submitted by PoisonIvy on Thu, 06/08/2017 - 17:09

Your message doesn't give me hope for my own situation (already divorced, ex-h decided years ago that he preferred his dad to me) but it does make me happy for you. It does help me to come on this forum and see that I'm not alone in what I've endured but it also makes me sad to see that people are suffering. I wish there were more folks like you and your wife and me and the other spouses on here who have tried very hard to make things work. I'm glad I made the efforts I did to resuscitate my marriage but I couldn't do it alone.

Yes

Submitted by Feathers on Thu, 06/08/2017 - 19:18

I have some anger. 99% of my marriage has been focused on him and his wants and needs. I did everything, literally every single thing. But, since I didn't do it perfectly, it was my fault and I was, am still being, punished.

Anyway, I'm happy that your marriage is flourishing. It does give me hope. After 30 years, I pray that my husband will soon be in the place you're at. We are in counseling, us together and me separately, but so far that's it. Our marriage counselor suggests meds at each visit, but since hubs hates being told what to do, he rebels. We at least have that stubbornness!! LOL

All about him

Submitted by spaceycasey on Sat, 12/02/2017 - 04:31

i feel you. I can just enjoy my day and what I have, but it’s all day with him and what he wants and how he could always have something better, I try to get him to live here an now.... but it always comes back to something he wants to buy. It’s frustrating.

hope

Submitted by ADHDhusbandFAIL on Fri, 06/09/2017 - 01:22

Good to know there is still hope. She has both feet out the door at the moment. On top of that I've been told to move out. I don't have a job as I'm the Stay at Home Dad at the moment. So yeah there are kids involved too. My biggest fear is being homeless and not being able to see my children. Even if I had a job and steady income my fear is that a judge will say I can't see my kids as much as I wish. She isn't out the door fully yet, but I'm packing my bags as I've been kicked out. No access to savings or money, so this is going to be very rocky for me as I have to go live with my parents a few hundred miles away or live out of my truck for a while. She is letting me stay in the spare bedroom for the next couple days, but then after that I have to get out. Good to know there might still be hope, because I'm still in love with her. I'll hold on to as little hope as I can, for my ADHD has really had a toll on my and my loved ones. Totally understandable why she is out the door, or should I say, forcing me out the door. Thanks for the hope.

This is beautifully written.

Submitted by DependentOrigination on Tue, 06/20/2017 - 02:26

Enough so that it cause me to come out of the silence and comment. So very much so, indeed. J commented on my post last week and somehow, tonight I found my way back.

My daughter graduated from school this week and I have come to the point in my life that I have been anticipating for 20 years. I love my daughter, more than anything in the world. I loved being a mom, even a single mom, forever, I still do.

But I am letting go of the rope now, letting her take her own way, make her own mistakes, which frees up hours of my time to be something. Something more that just my career and my motherhood, something else, something new. Maybe a language, maybe fitness, maybe music, I don't know.

But not this. Not angry. Not sad. Not bitter. Not deeply betrayed and deeply hurt. I don't know what will become with my marriage with my husband. Maybe we will stay together forever. Maybe he will lie and cheat himself into solohood again.

I won't be reading books on ADHD. I won't be crossing the 50 yard mark. I won't go looking at his phone, or monitoring his parenting decisions or his financial decisions. I won't sacrifice my happiness for his.

I will be setting myself up for success and happiness. Slowly, one small piece at a time. And on those bad days, when his ADHD wins, I will retreat deeply into myself, and he can come find me. Because he always does, once what ever has caught his fancy turns to dust.

The truth is, they have it harder than us. They are buried in layers of shame and failure and loss and are conditioned to lash out to protect themselves from one more failure. They do have to look themselves in the mirror some days and it isn't an easy thing to see.

So I will take the good things from my marriage and always keep a small part of my heart walled away safe, just for myself. I don't know if it is the right decision. I don't know if there is a right decision.

I do know that pointing out the ridiculously obvious flaws, the attempts to understand, to comprehend, to achieve justice, balance, etc. was the biggest, most self destructive waste of time I have ever spent. If he wants to get better, he will get better. It will have to come from him. Any intervention on my part is just another reason for him to not have to deal with his shit.

Just as my obsession with his past behaviours was just another reason for me to not deal with my own shit. I will not spend these next twenty years that I had planned to travel, to learn, to explore, to paint, to dream, on studying my relationship and letting it consume me.

It will survive, or it will not. He will cross the line and bury the relationship, or he will not. I will be as loving, as kind, as calm and as compassionate as I can be. And if I can't, like you, I will remove myself until I can find that person back again.

I have read more books on marriage in this last 10 years than is necessary for a lifetime. I finally read the right one, which was only the right one because I suffered through my own experiments with the others. And pieced together millions of tiny lessons taken from millions of sources and through that collective wisdom I can now forge my path.

You can't care more about someone else's life than they do themselves. I need to care about my own life. I need to look after myself. Truly, with no turning around, no looking back, no encouraging. If they show up, they show up. Its the scariest move on the planet, but you have to let them make that step.

This was a bunch of nonsensical ramblings. I am just trying to consolidate my own thoughts on a very long journey I have taken since February and will continue to take. There are no more excuses. There is just me and my successes and my failings, for me to comb through, for me to come to terms with, for me to take an account of, so I can learn from my past mistakes and be a better person in the future. Thank you for the inspiration. I wish you the best. You are only a self harming codependent if you allow yourself to be. Stop trying so hard. Stop asking. Stop demanding. Stop intervening, stop explaining. They will always come back in their own way in their own time. That's marriage, a marathon, someone else said.

WOW

Submitted by Lynn-lost on Fri, 10/13/2017 - 00:53

DependentOrigination You wrote exactly how I feel right now! Everything except for the daughter graduating and the musing about what your husband may or may not do. I filed for divorce two weeks ago, What a beautiful description of letting go of codependency and reclaiming your life!

Lynn Congratulations!

Submitted by DependentOrigination on Fri, 10/13/2017 - 11:48

A brave new world awaits you! How exciting! I am not there yet, but I am going to open my mind to that possibility over the next several years. It is not going to happen in an emotional moment, as an act of retaliation or self defense, but after careful thought and reflection. The problem is finding that lack of reaction. In the last 6 months I have dealt with infidelity, him not showing up at my daughters graduation, him choosing his ex wife and his children’s happiness over our own. He broke an agreement we made in counselling and I asked him why. He told me he was thinking of himself and his own happiness and he thought our relationship was strong enough to survive it.

It took me several months, but I was able to have a calm, rational, non defensive conversation about this. And basically I said, don’t anticipate that our relationship will always survive these betrayals. He tried to deal with it with anger and stonewalling but I stayed calm and talked him through it (it definitely takes two to fight). He didn’t like it.

I have successfully been staying on my side of the fifty yard line. I am doing yoga, reading about philosophy, improving my own financial situation, managing my anxiety, connecting with friends.

I think it will take a year or two of this, of me being my best self, before I will be able to sit down with a counsellor and talk through whether remaining in this relationship is a viable option for me.

But to you Lynn, congratulations. I can’t even imagine the relief, the hope, and the excitement you must be experiencing. If I am not able to separate myself from my codependency, or if he insists on punishing me for my happiness with ongoing sabotage, I may also join you on that journey.

D.O.-

Submitted by Lynn-lost on Fri, 10/13/2017 - 12:46

Your plan is very wise. I had found a statement re codependency online and emailed it to myself. Whenever I felt shaky about my choice, whenever he tried to manipulate me again, whenever he threatened suicide again, whenever he lied again, whenever he did and sold more drugs, whenever he was mean and nasty, whenever I heard him on the phone trashing me, whenever I saw nasty emails and texts filled with lies,whenever he took my money, I went back and read it, over and over again. I hope you refer to your beautiful missive to yourself over and over again, too. Of course there are miracles that happen every day, but, I gave up on that idea. 23 years in, chances of him changing ( a miracle) not likely! Love and light to you!

You go girl!

Submitted by MrsADD on Tue, 12/05/2017 - 11:08

You so deserve every ambition you have set forth. Good luck and yes take care of you! Thank you for the inspiration and hope. There is a future ahead.

What the heck was I doing all this time? I'm an idiot!

Submitted by Silvermantle on Tue, 10/31/2017 - 03:07

I've been living with my partner for 22 years and we've been aware of him "probably" having ADHD for the last several. He was officially diagnosed several months ago. Um... Hooray?

Seeing his 25 page cognitive & behavioral evaluation in black & white hit me like a brick. He's unusual. He's different. He's exceptional. It's documented by a professional who laid out his areas of deficiency in plain text.... He has problems. They are real.

He was also told that untreated ADHD gets worse with age. Fabulous. He's getting treatment -- they're trying drugs and he's managing to make it to some of his therapy appointments -- and that's all good.

My problem as his partner is my own internal aguish. My realization that for 22 years I have enabled his disorder. I have been operating as his executive functioning. I have taken on full responsibility for the things in life that he's not good at... Things that I'm not good at either.

You see, I was recently diagnosed as well. The difference being, I sought out my diagnosis myself, without anyone else's prompting. I faced a huge amount of discrimination and obstruction from medical professionals, which I overcame by willpower and determination. My diagnosis is Aspergers. I'm on the Autism spectrum as a cognitively gifted, high functioning adult female. I am amazing and talented at many things. I am completely terrible at many others.

After 22 years I can look him in the eyes and say: I can't do these things for you anymore. I suck at them. I should never have been doing them in the first place. I'm sorry. I didn't let you grow and learn and become competent. That was my fault. Your fault was letting me do it.

So now we can move forward.

But... Where I have known my whole life that I was somehow different, and have made it my personal quest to overcome my difficulties by learning compensatory strategies.... He has not. He still does not. I feel like his diagnosis is sitting on a shelf, he glances at it occasionally, but doesn't DO anything about it.

He's sweet and loving, sure. But is he also a selfish, lazy, jerk?

Your news, Silvermantle

Submitted by Chevron on Tue, 10/31/2017 - 08:23

Welcome to the site. Glad you're here.

One of the issues we discuss in detail you mention in your post, the issue of taking on so many of one's partner's burdens, very often through wanting to help out or through understanding that we're the only one to be able to do it, that the load becomes very unbalanced. People on the site do struggle with what you identify is upsetting to you in their relationship. And often, too, they deal with regret at the years that passed brfore they and their partner learned that he/she has ADHD. I've recently read the estimate that some 80 to 90% of those with adult ADHD are undiagnosed, meaning that both they and their partner dont fully know what they're dealing with.

So while I certainly understand your regret at the time that passed while you and your husband didnt know enough about him to deal with things differently at home, I hope that you don't castigate yourself for trying to do right, not knowing that he had ADHD. Even the brightest people do what you did, and need to learn to change. It's not his fault he has ADHD, either.

22 years together means a lot of habit built up. I wish you very well. It will take labor and persistence to make changes that stick.

There's a thread in your thoughts that you wrote to us that I want to support your further thought on, if you want to use the site to give you material for your own further thinking, and that is what active role your husband will have in the care and work of the relationship, now that you both know, definitively, that one of you has Asperger's and the other has ADHD. It's a bottom line reality that you'll read professionals name, and you'll read the proof from life of in posts on this site that it takes both partners, making active and not ephemeral contributions to the relationship and to each other. One person cannot, all caps, do all the work of the relationship.

So it comes down to whether or not both partners both work at it with persistence and getting the work done. Some on this site are dealing with partners who will not...not cannot, will not...show up and do things for others that they havent had to do to that point.

Neither you, nor I, nor our husbands with ADHD are so special that we get a hall pass from work and worry because we're special and have limitations.

I'd say about 75% of my day is packed with work that I'm not good at, I've had no training for, I don't like, and most important to my preferences, it bores the living DAYlights out of me. Day after day, 365 days in a year. Some of it I'm doing because, to be clear about it, my husband has ADHD and cant do it. I meant that: can't. Other of it I'm doing because I'm adult and dont get a hall pass to avoid tackling what I'm not good at. Asperger's and ADHD, as well as my limitations, and I do have some, are not excuses from unpleasant work.

People both with and without Asperger's and ADHD are highly intelligent, are crammed with creativity, and chafe at the workload of the humdrum.

What a life situation that you're in Silvermantle, daunting, but even this late full of opportunity. I do hope your partner takes himself in hand and learns...it can be learned...how to up his ability to execute tasks and that they're ones that take some work off your back.

I suggest that you start working on what you can that improves your own lot now. Radically question whether or not there are caretaking tasks that you do that you can get rid of...neither one of you do them. My husband and I dont have the money for it, but if you do, pay someone to do anything that you're doing that you can pay for. Mow lawns, monthly or bimonthly cleaning, whatever it is

One of the best ways my husband and I have found to lower the grind of caretaking on both of us is to simplify our lives and get rid of possessions. I learned that one from a man with ADHD on another site. We are both crusaders about downsizing what we own. The less stuff we have, lol, the less of it he has to misplace, and the less I have to wash.

I wish you well as you tackle making your own life better, now in the true light of what you're dealing with both in yourself and in him. Don't wait for him, pinning improvement in your wellbeing on his change. Whether or not he changes his ways will be an open question for quite awhile. Don't make your changes dependent on his,

I appreciate your truth telling that you've for long taken on work that you're no good at, because you thought due to his fails in executive function, he couldnt do at all, but both of you cant claim disability and check out on doing it. Of course, but then I once witnessed a couple, neither of whom had ADHD or Asperger's but each to hear them had the impediment of believing that they were too special to have to go get a job, insisting in an astonishing squabble that because eaach thought he and she were special the other one "had" to be the only one of the two taking a lunch pail and slogging off to punch a clock and work for pay. I think there's no avoiding scutwork entirely, Silvermantle, That it bores the socks off me, that I'm smart and capable, and I am, that it's work I'm not good at doesnt get me a hall pass.

Dump whatever work you can, overboard. Do call your partner to do more, yes. Just dont wait, and pin your own changes on his.

Very glad you're here. Asperger's challenges are serious business. I do hope you find ways lighten your load, and that you already have a spot in your house for the downtime and recharging that you need.

Well said

Submitted by MrsADD on Sat, 11/25/2017 - 14:51

That was really well said. It hit the nail on the head for where I have moved to as well. I am at 50 yard line not waiting for him to show up just doing my best to keep the play field even. I have accepted he will never come to 50 yard line. I have 2 little girls and one on the way. I wish I had answered to how it all works but seems like he is the equivalent of trying to guess which direction a tornado is going to go and I am done chasing the tornado too.

Chasing the tornado...

Submitted by DependentOrigination on Mon, 11/27/2017 - 09:33

Right?! So much insight in that comment. That is what I have done. And how is that healthy?! :). Chasing a tornado. Very clear. Why chase after something that leaves a wide swathe of destruction in its wake. I am being dramatic but lately, I am getting angry again. It’s been months, months since I have been angry. I am setting up my own counseling in January. For me. So that I don’t chase the tornado.

anger

Submitted by MrsADD on Mon, 11/27/2017 - 10:33

I have been angry for 3 years and finally got through depression with counseling over last 1.5 years. I have been going through grievance cycle for nearly 4 years now. Now I feel i am at a point of acceptance and am stopping the fight against something/someone I have NO control over. We only have control over ourselves. I can accept him as he is ADHD and all the good and the bad that goes with that ,but I refuse to be in a marriage relationship with that behavior. I can parent with him fairly well we are a good team when it comes to making sure our kids have all they need and discussing important decisions it is our best trait as a couple but the erratic behavior his ADHD brings to my doorstep is not attractive or healthy for me and if he cannot manage it better I cannot meet him halfway in having a relationship with him. I can be a friend from a distance and a co-parent but that is all I can bring to my 50 yard line. Good luck with everything and thanks for the comment. I really like your 50 yard line analogy.

You posted as I was writing

Submitted by Chevron on Mon, 11/27/2017 - 11:33

Mrs ADD, I think some of the points we each made are the same points.

This is sort of a grim comment: with the grieving cycle that people go through when someone close to them has died, no matter how long it goes on, there's a finality, which is that the person grieved has died, and that death and burial is permanent. But grieving something that is still alive and intimate in one's daily life, in which as you rightly say, there's an erratic appearance, or disappearance, well, there's the dificulty of knowing in what relational world one is in, from day to day. Who could grieve effectively, meaning accept that what is gone is gone?

Much appreciation of what you wrote. I wrote in an earlier post to you about attend time over the dinner table, then the next day looked back at earlier posts of yours, to read about your life, and see that my remarks don't fit what you're going through with your husband. Apologies. This time of year, I'm not keeping up with old and new threads day by day. Wishing you well.

grieving cycle..Chevron

Submitted by MrsADD on Mon, 11/27/2017 - 11:54

I think the post you wrote while I was writing...in short takes two... is correct. As far as the post about the comment of the grieving cycle I am not discussing death. Grievance happens in relationships living and dying if you lose something you thought you had or did have. My grievance has been over the family and marriage I wanted and did not get. I have learned about the grievance cycle through therapy it is not something I made up. Sorry if this comment offended you. While the marriage relationship is on it's death bed the parent relationship will always be there and the only thing that would destroy that would be him destroying it. I plan to co- parent strong and be a family as best we can under separate roofs. Just removing the romantic and connected needs marriage brings b/c he is not capable of providing that for me.

Wishing you well, Mrs ADD

Submitted by Chevron on Mon, 11/27/2017 - 14:27

No upset, here. After reading your last, I'm pretty sure that I understood your first post as you intended, and wrote to remark on your situation in what I hoped was a supportive way. I do wish you well.

Chevron

What can be done if one of the two checks out

Submitted by Chevron on Mon, 11/27/2017 - 11:25

Greetings, all.

Dependent Origination, someone else a couple weeks ago got me thinking, and your last post woke up the thought again.

If in an ongoing relation of ANY kind between two adults, one of the two will not or cannot change, or seriously backslides from change he/she attempted earlier, or develops new kinds of self centeredness or failure at adult responsibility, in my opinion, that "marriage" part of the title of this site (also cohabitation, long term dating, even senior care within the relation) is not functional, no matter what label the two put on their relation. I apply that Tough Cookie remark to myself and to my marriage, too. If my husband and I don't both contribute, we can call it a marriage, or whatever, a quilting society, a hotrod club...we can label it anything we want, but if we don't both contribute, share, communicate, the relation is not there in the NOW that is so vivid to ADHD people, where not now is not real and now is real. So there's no marriage at all (or whatever it is, cohabitation, business, club) in the ADHD partner's now and in fact in my now as well. Relationships are not abstractions and certificates on the wall. They're lived. No second partner? No relation.

So what ends up, if the second partner talks big but doesn't do anything about the talk, or learns and applies new ways to evade responsibility and take advantage.

...in my opinion, continuing denial or backsliding or new irresponsibility by one partner REQUIRES the other person in the marriage (identified as the one who is still working for the relation, troubleshooting, contributing) to turn toward him/herself to care for him/herself, and to build up his/her own strengths and capacities.

There's no option other than that, in the face of the relation (=marriage, cohabitation, business, bocce ball club) being abandoned, unilaterally blocked, or newly left holding new bags.

Person #2 has to turn to care for her/himself and change her/himself. Because Person #1 left the playing field of shared life. If this is the case of relations in which there's no ADHD present (and it is; let me tell you the one about my non ADHD cousin going into business with his parents, thieving the cash and leaving them in debt and in a mess with the government, in their old age....), it's the case where there's ADHD present.

Self care while under the gun of working double, raising kids, etc. is so hard. But so necessary. The partner left holding the bag taking care of him/herself is the last gasp, the last hope of the marriage (cohabitation, etc)...it's the last thread of it all that keeps possibility alive, in the event that the denying and/or using and/or coasting partner has the necessary eureka experience, and starts changing his/her ways and putting some effort in, according to his/her capabilities, to make the relation back into something like a two way share.

It's possible that that second person does wake up and start making changes that matter to her/his kids and/or spouse. But it's not guaranteed.

In the meantime, the only thread of possibility that has a connection to a potential future is that more responsible of the two takes more and better care of her/hinself, and makes new, cleareyed decisions about making changes in herself, and about cutting losses and labors back to an amount that he/she can accomplish on her own. There's no other material in the relation to work on in a positive way than that, if the second partner is a big time denier, user, etc.

Best wishes to everyone here

Chevron, contributing partner

Submitted by dedelight4 on Tue, 11/28/2017 - 09:53

When one person checks out, and stays out, there really can be no "marriage". I believe there is a relationship, but not an " interconnected" married life. The one who stays inside themselves cheats the other person and also themselves from a fuller life that they probably would actually love having. BUT......when they continue to STAY locked in the state of denial after years of their married partner showing patience, kindness, talking, safe spaces, endless tears and trying to understand, one has to wonder what they are "getting" from STAYING in denial. Somewhere, there is a choice to NOT face themselves, probably because of fear. But, there has to be a "payoff" for them to stay in denial. They don't have to face"change". But, change isnt the BAD thing they think it is........it could actually be helpful and ADD something good to life. Sometimes I've wondered if part of it is ODD........being defiant, and getting satisfaction from being defiant. I've watched some of this in my husband. He has gotten satisfaction in certain defiant acts and that always disturbed me.

In my reading about codependency, I learned about the human brain. And, we've learned here in this forum and other places that people with ADHD have more "abnormal" brain scans than nons do. The frontal lobe is affected. And, seriously codependent people can also have abnormal brain scans. When a child is newborn, if the mother doesn't give the child enough love and affection, the right side of the brain can seriously be affected, and can underperform the rest of their lives. (From the lack of love) Amazing. Love helps babies brains grow healthy, as well as being healthier emotionally and physically. Again, amazing.

When parents are too obsessed with their own lives, and can't put enough energy into their child, the child can be seriously affected. I believe this happened to my husband. His mother did not show him and his siblings much, if ANY affection. She repeated this behavior with her grandchildren. She would SAY openly how much she "LOVED" her child/grandchild but wouldn't actually SHOW the child ANY attention. No hugs, kisses loving touches, etc., but verbally INSIST how much she "loved" them. It was weird to watch, and proves to me that her scope of "love" was seriously hindered. The grandchildren grew to be like the rest of the family,............distant, unsure of themselves, needy, and self centered.The self focus comes from the mothers lack of loving interaction with the baby. This seemed to be prevalent in the post WWII generation women, not sure why.

But, the most interesting thing was that with the lack of touching, and facial interacting, the kids grew up to BE distant, angry, had learning issues, and were selfish. Being self focused is one of the things that happens with being "love neglected". The hard thing, is when these hurt children become adults and try to live in an adult world without really knowing how to interact with others. Thus, the cycle continues unless the person recognizes their loss and gets help. It truly is an astounding area to learn about. Also, it really does prove how vital a mother's love and nurturing shapes a child's life. (A fathers love also)

It IS harder on those who choose to have a relationship with neglected people. The marriage suffers, and so many don't know why this is, and try to " help" the affected person. And hurt/neglected people all seem to find each other regardless of how they meet, or where. Interesting.

I especially love your last paragraph Chevron. Denial is hard on everyone. Yep.

Dede

Submitted by Chevron on Tue, 11/28/2017 - 13:59

How observant …

The one who stays inside themselves cheats the other person and also themselves from a fuller life that they probably would actually love having. BUT......when they continue to STAY locked in the state of denial after years of their married partner showing patience, kindness, talking, safe spaces, endless tears and trying to understand, one has to wonder what they are "getting" from STAYING in denial. Somewhere, there is a choice to NOT face themselves, probably because of fear. But, there has to be a "payoff" for them to stay in denial. They don't have to face"change". But, change isnt the BAD thing they think it is........it could actually be helpful and ADD something good to life. Sometimes I've wondered if part of it is ODD........being defiant, and getting satisfaction from being defiant. I've watched some of this in my husband. He has gotten satisfaction in certain defiant acts and that always disturbed me.

This sounds right to me. Perhaps more on your points: I ‘ve read some about conditioning, how certain actions and communications in relationships encourage the person to act habitually in certain ways. Animals are taught to do things like turn around and jump based on whether or not they get encouragement or payoffs in treats (they don’t learn nearly so well if the response to what they do is harmful or scary to them).

What I’ve read says that conditioning is going on reciprocally in any relationship. It of course doesn’t take the place of thinking, which is also going on. People say that their pets condition them. I’m conditioning my husband at the same time that he’s conditioning me. Again, It’s not the only thing going on in the relationship.

I’ve read that people (or dogs, or cats) can condition themselves, doing it entirely without an external conditioning partner. That came to mind when you described your husband defiantly denying, after which you saw him showing satisfaction that he once again said or did “no I won’t” Sounds like he was reinforcing himself, giving himself a “cookie” of satisfaction every time he refused! He’s created a self-reinforcing conditioning loop, it sounds like. What you did or said; or the situation was the catalyst, but the payoff, as you called it, the reward of the conditioning, was not coming from you or others, it was coming from inside of him. Yipes.

The brain

Thanks so much for your remarks on what you’ve researched on the human brain. Here’s a title of a book that I’m reading, now, related to doing some work on my own stress levels, Bessel Van der Kolk, The Body Keeps the Score. Brain, Mind and Body in the Healing of Trauma (2014). He’s a psychiatrist who has done research on brain development.

Related to what you wrote about the long term effect of childhood neglect on later life, which certainly sounds right to me as you wrote it, Dr. Van der Kolk describes (and shows x ray pictures) of the long term impact on the brain of the trauma done to soldiers, children, or adults who are for example in a terrible accident. Trauma, whether emotional, psychic or physical, makes long lasting changes to that frontal cortex that you talked about and to other parts of the brain.

I'm reading the book, because it shows evidence over time that a traumatized child’s brain is permanently shaped by childhood trauma (in which he includes abandonment and neglect). The brain result of early trauma doesn’t heal on its own. The brain doesn't right itself. That’s the big takeaway I’m spending some time on, related to my current stress. In the areas that related to consciousness, fight or flight, or basic thriving, the last two of which flood and overpower the use of reason and imagination, if they switch on to high alarm, the brain doesn’t recover as time passes. One may learn to cope, but that’s coping, not the brain functioning as it would if it weren’t shaped by trauma.

The last third of his book comes from his practice. He believes that if (there’s our if…) the traumatized adult possessing a brain that triggers dysfunctionally later takes up the work of self care in the matter, there are practices that foster shaping the brain into better activations. And he has pictures of brain scans to show that, too.

It's a point we make in different ways in our discussions: Dr. Van der Kolk, drawing on brain research and his practice, insists that the person suffering must be the one to actually do the changes, and to muster the persistence to continue to do the changes. It’s our old bottom line of our discussion board, and the bottom line of addiction recovery.

Thanks for writing, Dede. You’ve given me a boost today. For me, change only becomes possible when there's more clarity. Best to you.

Self-reinforcing conditioning loop

Submitted by CaliforniaGirl on Tue, 11/28/2017 - 17:52

Interesting discussion. I feel like I saw this in my ex in a few ways.

Satisfaction from denial. (There's no problem here and even if there is it's no big deal and you're wrong, so I "win".)
Satisfaction from refusing/resisting. (You can't tell me what to do, so I "win".)
Satisfaction and reinforcement of eventually getting me to give in. (be it by swearing up and down he was working on things until I believed him or by escalating his anger in order to get me to back off)
Satisfaction and reinforcement of avoiding the things he didn't want to do and prolonging procrastination around it.

And I wanted to believe him and wanted to have a happy life so I was participating in it/being conditioned by it until I finally saw the pattern.

Very unfortunate.

Conditioning loop/CA girl

Submitted by MrsADD on Wed, 11/29/2017 - 16:04

Very interesting thank you for all of that info.

CA girl I think it is so fascinating that when dealing with ADHD no matter spouse or other (my employee even has a niece that displays these sames satisfactions and is diagnosed ADHD). I have the same issues with my spouse. Dealt with it this morning in fact. Why/ What makes it satisfying to do these things? Is it conditioning? My H once told me I was the only person he ever let tell him what to do. I was like What? I said well it's not like I ask things that are out of whack like can you help parent or pick up your shoes? Why is blowing up one day and acting like nothing is wrong the next ok? And why is it somehow my fault and I am overreacting when I am not accepting that I was blown up at for no reason? Why would refusing and resisting be satisfying? We were literally just discussing this like how is that ideal to a person in life? So how do we as the person in the relationship with the ADHD person cope?

Unfortunately for me I just stopped fighting it and trying to make sense of it or fix it. Now say "ok whatever I am at fault" Ok don't care I am the bad one you are right now I we don't need to discuss this anymore. So unhealthy for me on my part but you know what I cannot fight anymore! No more crazy train! Good for you getting out of that relationship I am working towards getting out of mine in near future.

Conditioning (b/c he did have very bad parenting growing up) or ADHD that has caused these behaviors not sure but seems common in the ADHD symptom list from other's on here. Whatever the reason it has caused me severe stress and anxiety in my life after 7 years with this person and I can't take it anymore. He will have to find another person to deal with it. He has conditioned me into a very unhealthy state of being.

I'm not sure.

Submitted by CaliforniaGirl on Sat, 12/02/2017 - 21:08

My ex also could never seem to understand why I wouldn't "just move on"... either from residual hurt feelings over something or from an issue that was really not resolved. He seemed to decide that he was done with it so I should be too. He would get extremely upset with me if the topic came up again or if I was not behaving the way he thought I should. (cheery or accepting or otherwise being agreeable) Like you, it then became my fault...    I would be accused of "always living in the past".

My ex also couldn't seem to understand why I might want or need more information about something.   If an issue came up, he seemed to expect to give me a short and often quite a vague answer and that was that.   If I wanted to know more detail or get clarification on something he would get extremely frustrated and go into anger mode very quickly.    Personally I think this was more of an issue of him wanting me to leave him alone about whatever it was, since it was usually around an uncomfortable topic but it's hard to say. This also became my fault as I was often accused of being "never satisfied".

I've read about impatience being a part of ADHD and I was thinking about where it might have manifested in my relationship. I think this was it. I think his racing mind was already on to the next thing and the next thing and the next thing, even though items that we needed to sort through and resolve as a couple were left incomplete. (much like the rest of his life.. his incomplete projects, taxes, impending divorce, etc)

I was also accused, along with his dad and sisters, of "telling him what to do."   Which was not at all my intention.

Regarding refusing and resisting... we know from Dr. Barkley's work that difficulty in regulating emotions is part of ADHD and that it can tie in to O.D.D., He has stated that ODD is not just a children's issue but an adult issue as well, despite what the DSM says. With that in mind, O.D.D. symptoms certainly seemed to be there in my ex. He quite regularly had reactions that were somewhere along the lines of no, that's stupid or no, I'm not doing that or no, that's not what the problem is.   Lots of no's. Lots of dismissing others concerns.

Along the same lines, he refused help on damn near everything but if anyone suggested that he should do something he didn't want to do he would get very upset very quickly. He quite often said things like "I shouldn't have to be the one to do that." or "Why is it all on me" and would get huffy or whiny. He would also get sarcastic and argue in circles... and if that didn't work he would stonewall and pull the silent treatment.   It was exasperating.

I mean, I literally got into an argument with him on the phone once that turned into him cutting me off from speaking and screaming "No I'm not!!", "NO I'M NOT!!", No I'm not!! over and over until I finally thought... Jesus Christ, I'm a grown woman and I'm sitting here in a children's argument with a 54 year old man..... this is ridiculous. I ended up telling him I was no longer doing this and hung up the phone.

Another time he started to ramp up his anger at me over something right after a perfectly nice dinner in the backyard. It was very late and quiet so I immediately thought of the neighbors and I asked to him stop yelling at me. Instead, he got right up in my face and screamed "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!" at the top of his lungs. I kid you not.

I knew nothing about ADHD or ODD at the time and there was never a diagnosis in my partner. I didn't suspect it until after we split up.   Now that I look back, though .... well, who knows.   Either way, I just couldn't manage it.

WhatEVER that yelling and shutting down was coming from, CG..

Submitted by Chevron on Sun, 12/03/2017 - 10:53

Well, if I were going through those reflexive shuttings-you-down when you were needing ordinary resolution, ordinary & basic...and minimally more! information about what he said vaguely, and lived with someone who refused anything and everything that he didn't like.... I'd be spending some time after the relation, too. Goodness, gracious.

I'm sure that it didn't help you, in the middle of it, to hear from his family that you were bossing him around, when you were not telling him what to do. CG, I know...many of us on the site, from experience, know the difference between just saying something, darn it....just plain saying something about a topic, and the words had no implications in them and there wasn't a desire in your heart to order your partner around and HE reflexed into himself and felt pushed around. I get so tired sometimes of the advice given to partners of people with ADHD telling them not to boss their partner around when the real problem is thta the ADHD person is so paranoid, and/or into her/himself, tnat no no bossing, or "tone" of voice, or even words that anyone could construe as bossy were being said but the ADHD person in fact is inside his/her own psychodrama in his head, and is telling IT not to boss him around. Why don't they ever talk about THAT??? The comeback to that to a partner of someonw with ADHD to say, no, no, you're mommying your partner, you're being ugly, you're bossing, is the most condescending thing that could be said. One of the things that some partners of people with ADHD use this site for is to take time and to look at examples of interactions in other people's posts, to challenge themSELVES and look themSELVES over and like an adult, for pete's sake, take stock of their own failings and what was, in fact, not a failing, the partner didn't do what he/she was accused of doing, and say, I'll tell you who I am and what I have been doing. I'm an adult. To poke the bony finger of accusation at a partner, because an ADHD person is doing the kind of ODD, yelling, blocking, criticising things that you described in your post is a cheap exit from the real problem. Just because one person SAYS that someone else meant ill or failed doesnt mean that that really happened. ONLY the two people at home really know what went on.

So I'm taking your post literally, and believe that your partner did the things that you say, that you're not making it up or embellishing/ (WHY embellish, by the way, something that is so gobsmacking over the top behavior...how could one embellish THAT?_ Literally taken, what you went through is, interpersonally horrifying. No matter what his good qualities are and he will have had them. For my own reasons I can't live with daily lying, refusal and accusation. And shouting! I just can't and won't take it, if there's shouting going on. Not my shouting. Not my husband's shouting. I can't live in an environment of accusation and shouting. Period.

And I know perfectly well whether or not I sought to cause something, or had ill will, or was sarcastic, or chose mean words. I know. This. is. not. rocket. science. As I told my husband in an afterburn conversation the next morning, after he lost it and started screeching accusations at me at the end of the evening (after he had been drinking), and he wanted to revisit and re insist on all his nasty accusations of m in the morning....because he had a stake in not being wrong... I told him, and it pretty much stopped him short, "Look, I know when I'm being an A-H. I know when I'm being a bitch and when I'm not. Do you know why? It feels different inside me when I'm angry, trying to do somehting nasty to you. It feels different in there. It feels like I'm knotted up and anger is sitting right in my heart, and my mind is flooded with nasty things. Well. That stopped his clock, on trying to shove on to me his untrue accusations of me. Because while he doesn't seem to me to have a fully articulated ability to recognize and so manage his feelings, he DOES know what it feels like inside if he's being nasty...he recognized that.

That was one of many small steps the two of us have taken to work on our dealing with each other when disagreement or some emotional upset is going on. We've worked hard on it.

Again, California Girl. I read your post as not exaggerating, but as describing, so that you can think about them, some of your past partner's ways of going ODD on you, and pretty aggressively, I'd say, whether he could grasp that he was being aggressive or not. I'm so sorry that you underwent that. It would affect Mother Teresa to be handled that way over time. These things have long term impact

Two things, and then I'm done, for your thinking

First, I'm pretty sure, from living with this man who I love, who yes has done some of these very things you describe, I don't think my husband is able to both be in his fast-flash emotion moments and simultaneously stand outside of them, to either notice the effect on others or to moderate them...once he gets into fast-flash. If that's the case of your former partner, he would have not been able to evaluate his own behavior in terms of other people. I also think that although he's great in his work, which by now in his life is scripted, and some of it produced in a solitary environment; my husband has a generally bad ability to predict the social impact, or the long term interpersonal impact, of anything that he does relationally. He's not a social doofus by any means, but he often can't look down the road. So guess what, down the road, if he has done a howler to someone when we're in a social group, and they later are obviously unwilling to spend much time around him, he's surprised. Bottom line, I am sure my husband for wahtever reason doesn't have it in his kit to see himself having an impact on people, especially when he's in fast flash anger.

I know for a fact that my husband doesn't hear his own voice go up into yell mode. I don't know why that is, but he doesn't. Lol, you'd think the volume knob would be inside his head as well as on the outside, but it doesn't seem to be true.

Two, the yelling in particular. The Urban Dictionary defines the word "meta" as " about the thing itself." I once read in a book on relationships that when a couple are, say, deciding whether or not to buy something, or go to a movie, and then get into an argument, the discussion has become what was called a "meta" discussion. Going to a movie or making a purchase is no longer the topic of the discussion. The "meta" discussion, which is this example is arguing, said the book, and it made sense to me, must be resolved before the couple can get back to deciding on a movie. "Meta" things would be anger, accusation, criticism, labeling, jumping to conclusions, and yelling and some more things.

It sure sounds like your former partner went straight to the "meta" level, of angry refusal, yelling, accusation. I know it's human, and within the human repertoire to do these things. I've done them. I'll do them some time in the future, although some of my own work is to stop doing them. If I don't want to live in a house that has yelling in it, I begin by not going "meta" on my husband and start yelling at him. But I tell you, if I'm living with a partner who pulled that ODD trick in so many ways that you describe (and my husband doesn't, thank God), who could live with that! You'd be living with a screamie meemee, anytime he didn't get his way! By meta'ing on you, ratcheting it up to 11 on a 10 point scale. That's whether he did or didn't have ADHD

So sorry you lived through that.

Complicated stuff.

Submitted by CaliforniaGirl on Sun, 12/03/2017 - 18:13

Hi Chevron, thank you for taking the time to respond. :-) Yes, this is all why I can't seem to bring myself to even try to date again for the last year or so... that and everything is online now and it's kinda weird, to me. It's like going on an interview or something.

I should clarify, as the sentence I wrote wasn't constructed very well - it was my ex who was accusing me and he was also accusing his dad and his sisters of telling him what to do. More accurately... he labeled it as "everyone telling him how to live his life".

I'm not sure how his conversations went with his dad and sisters. I only overheard one, where his dad asked him what he was going to do about the divorce and the house, but I could hear him start to ramp up his anger at his dad very quickly - similar to his dealings with me.

I definitely believe that those frustrations and misinterpretations were coming from inside himself, as you describe. Sometimes just the most innocent thing would set him off. Regarding your description of the fast-flash emotions - I watched an ADHD lecture by Dr. Thomas Brown on youtube that talked about that very thing. The emotion suddenly seeming to take up all the space in the brain, even over a small thing, and the inability to keep anything else in mind (like the fact that you're screaming and hurling insults at the woman you profess to deeply love, heh). It had me wondering if that is what could have been contributing to my ex's behavior as well. Seems likely.

I fully admit there were times that I lost it too, and when that happened it was usually at a point when I was just so damn fatigued from everything or it was as a reaction to one of the sudden outbursts.   I've done a lot of therapy work in my life and I am pretty good at diffusing or walking away from situations but there were times that I just didn't have it.

But no, I was definitely not trying to boss him around or mommy him. I can't imagine too many people out there who would want to do that with their partner, really. Whenever I tried to talk to him it was coming from a place of trying to get to the bottom of whatever was going on and find a way to make progress or trying to express pain around the situation we were in. In fact the very last time he accused me of trying to tell him what to do I told him no....he was perfectly free to do whatever he wanted to do with his life, but that I might not be able to be in it.   Needless to say, he got angry at me for that too.   LOL... sigh.

But, to your point about family or others criticizing the non-ADD partner, I can for sure see that and I think it's unfair. Anyone with enough self-awareness is going to question themselves and try to adapt their behavior on their own, already. I know I did. And you are right, no one knows what really goes on behind closed doors. In my case, my ex is very charismatic, very well-liked and has a large network of friends... and he never lost his temper in front of any of them.   I can't help but wonder if that was calculated on his part but who knows. Either way I bet they'd be very surprised if they saw how he sometimes conducted himself.

He definitely had his good qualities and I loved him very much. He is generous, sociable, funny and adventurous. He often showered me with affection and there were times that we had the most amazing connection and deep conversations.   Times he seemed so sincere and upbeat about all the things he wanted to do. Times he seemed truly sad and expressed how sorry he was that everything was such a mess. I stayed because of all that. I let go of a lot of the quirks and smaller issues because that was the man I loved and who seemed to love me. It's heartbreaking for me to even type it out now. But then the tantrums and running away would happen and yea...I just couldn't do it anymore. It's lonely sometimes now but my anxiety is lower at least.

I appreciate the validation and the space to process everything though... It helps.

I'm glad you're here

Submitted by Chevron on Mon, 12/04/2017 - 07:45

I've just read your post, above. I think you're doing a good thing, to seek to learn more about your past relation, and about yourself and your husband in that relation. I dont read you as being stuck in your memories; you come across to me as seeking to learn, in order to accept, and to grow. Honey, about the dating... sounds like you're listening to yourself. Saying to you what you're already saying to yourself: if you're not up for it quite yet, that's really all right... there's time ...

Type of Fight or Flight...CG

Submitted by c ur self on Sun, 12/03/2017 - 22:45

Sadly this has been to common here... If this type mind can't force their will on you, by convincing you (get you to back down, or agree w/ them) that you are wrong. They want stay in the conversation....

My W;s two favorites is Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah on and on and on....Or name calling LIAR! LIAR! LIAR...She can get much uglier than that if I continue to try to discuss what ever the subject was....

We have really been able to address this combative defiance lately PTL!!! :)...She admitted to it...(first time I can remember, without blaming me) I told her I make it worse by keeping on, when it's obvious she needs a time out....I think we both want it to stop, (discipline and self-control) so that's progress!

Dede this is the major problem in our relationship....

Submitted by c ur self on Sun, 12/03/2017 - 00:30

(Sometimes I've wondered if part of it is ODD........being defiant, and getting satisfaction from being defiant. I've watched some of this in my husband. He has gotten satisfaction in certain defiant acts and that always disturbed me.)

This spirit has caused way more problems, ended way more communication attempts than adhd ever has in our marriage....I have been just as quilty at times...defiant meets defiant....Everyone loses.....When disrespect and defiance rear's it ugly head...I've truly struggled to walk away in silence...(Be a winner)....

This is my favorite thread on this site.

Submitted by DependentOrigination on Wed, 11/29/2017 - 20:08

So many strong people with excellent insight. I am on the self care track. I found it interesting that you mentioned the book on trauma. My husband had a friend who recommended it to him and asked me to get it for him from the library. My husbands friend was recently divorced. For a moment, I had a lot of hope. Finally, my husband was going to take a deep look at himself. Well... I read more of the book than he did. I am not sure he read past the first page. He lost the book and I paid the overdue charges. Gone from his mind. There was a glimmer of hope though.

So, self care it is. I am actually going to trauma based counseling for myself in January. Made the appointment last week. I am ready. And excited.

The grieving cycle is something I understand very well and wonder if the amp up in my anger is a result of me not managing my anxiety well enough with exercise or the harbinger of another grieving cycle. I also loved the points about conditioned satisfaction in relationships. I can never quite figure out the obstinate clinging to their plan/point of view despite the very obvious cost to their loved ones and themselves. I do believe this conditioned satisfaction is at play on my relationship as well . I thought it was a control issue. Perhaps not.

Here is an ADHD anecdote for the group:

My 18 yo daughter (also ADHD) texts me today. “Mom. There is a bag of bread on the counter” I waited... bread is a heated topic in our household. My husband buys ginormous amounts of bread, never eats it, stashes it in the freezer and then I eventually throw it out. “MOM SERIOUSLY! There is a bag of like 6 loaves of bread in it just sitting on the counter!” This would have driven me to despair last year, but now I just laugh hysterically. She continues ... “ I texted him to ask where he was going to keep it and he said... in the bag!” I am in tears at this point. Their ADHD is different. His is the do too much and get overwhelmed and throw everything under the bus and hers is the I can’t get started kind. (Hyperactive/inattentive). And she hasn’t done the reading that I have and thinks somehow logic will solve this problem.

Which just reinforces the conclusion of this thread which is, let him deal with the bread. It is going to stay on the counter until he has dealt with it. It is not going to affect my well being. I am not going to discuss, explain, suggest or argue or it will become my problem. And a reason for him to avoid his own.

I truly love the strong push towards health in this thread. Be healthy. Look after yourself. I am too. I will let you know how it goes with the anger/trauma counseling.

Dependent O, and others, trauma and healing

Submitted by dedelight4 on Thu, 11/30/2017 - 11:45

I had to laugh, when I read the part of your post......"He lost the book". OMG.......lol...that is perfect, and happens every day in our household. I can't tell you how much money has been spent on replacing "lost" things. When, the items are not really "lost" but they have been put somewhere randomly out of sight, and out of sight "out of mind". Its gone.

For many years he put little pieces of paper with phone numbers and random info all over EVERY available open counter top and dresser space. They covered everything. He said he " Had to have it this way so he wouldn't lose anything". But, we couldn't USE the counters or tables......it was frustrating. I began to take everything to his office and make him KEEP them there, because he did have his own room for all his "stuff". He didn't need the rest of the house's counter space to keep track of stuff. (like the drill tool constantly on the kitchen counter) When the main issue was that he was too " impatient" to put the tool BACK in the toolbox. But, would yell at someone else for a similar infraction. Once again, his mother allowed him to do this when he lived at home. (Conditioning)

Anyway, I do believe we all here have been traumatized by our relationships. Who really KNOWS how to deal with a person who has a brain dysfunction? Not many. Even the experts in this field have their struggles with this. We "average" folks don't seem to fare very well when the odds are stacked against a successful relationship. I am also looking up things about brain health and getting some trauma counseling. It just seems fitting, and sensible. I do need some serious mental/emotional help and don't mind saying so.

Even though my husband is much better in his actions towards me, he still isn't getting his ADHD treated, other than taking meds. He goes on and off them by himself, which creates some wide emotional and physical "swings". I insisted recently that he is much better WHEN taking them regularly, which he did acknowledge and admit he also recognized. Yes.

I agree with the others here about the " conditioning" that seems prevalent in so many spouses here on this site. (The ones who stay in denial or a measure of denial) a satisfaction like "winning" if they don't "give in" to what their spouse wants/needs. Sad, that they prefer this over the satisfaction of working together for a common good. Immaturity? Lack of emotional growth?

Take care everyone.

Such wisdom from weary sojourners....

Submitted by Zapp10 on Sun, 12/03/2017 - 20:19

I have been following this line of posts. So many familiar Compadre's offering insights. I can identify myself..... and my H.

We are still very much separated.... though I live in upper apartment. I am SO much better even though we do see each other a while most days. I put up/down.....boundaries. Two major ones....I will no longer work on the marriage. If he can't even TALK with me....what is the point? I am focused on me with a general interest in what is going on with him( I can't believe I have come this far). The second one is...he has no more "say" in my life than I do his....which is zip.

The co dependence on my end of this has been a real eye opener. Like I needed ONE more thing to learn but I sucked it up and am coming out on the other side. It is interesting to me that, while we are physically in close proximity, it was verbally stating to him my moving forward with life.....without including him in any way shape or manner, that I felt calm and at peace. Do I think my H saw it? I have no idea....and it does not matter at the present moment.

I have a very deep appreciation of the value of this life God gave me. While my marriage is not what I had hoped....life is GOOD.... PERIOD.

My H believes he has made very good improvements.....he has made some strides....by trying harder....he cannot fathom that I will not move back down.....excuse me?......He will not talk about things as to how we move forward! Trying harder sucks the life out of him I can see it.Add to it his immaturity and it truly is like being the only adult in the house.

My husband has so much going on in his life....all of them priorities. Our separation has helped me to see that I simply filled a slot when he had nothing to do. HE doesn't see it.....not my business anymore what he does or doesn't understand.

We will both be fine.....oh crap....I just spoke for him....lol.

P.S. my new favorite word is RESILIENCE.

Connection

Submitted by kellyj on Sun, 12/03/2017 - 21:44

First, before I say anything else, I'd like to thank everyone here and namely those in this thread for being my teacher and helping me learn the things I needed to learn. I've come to learn I didn't need to learn a lesson, I just needed to learn some things I didn't know before.

I'll jump right in and skip the the prelude and say that I wonder if there's not some force in the universe working here.... but on a more practical worldly side to this... the codependents is a killer. And excuse your perception of what is real.

My first wife contacting me out of the blue.... was not just an accident. These things happen for a reason, and for the mysterious unanswerable parts.... we've lived parallel lives since the time she left. My journey and my personal growth and everything I did has contributed to where I am now.... her journey and her personal growth has contributed to everything to where she is now. The simple irony is that we both arrived at the same place at the same time with the same experiences and all the same lessons that we learned and our conclusions are the same. Whatever it was that made her wait until now right at this time.... is like us both getting spit out the bottom of the Coke machine together onto the floor.... and now here we are sitting there looking at each other and laughing hysterically about it. These things just don't happen.... not in such an identical way with such incredible timing. After 27 years of being separate living completely independently of each other with no awareness of what the other was doing... that's incredible... it's too weird for words. Connection...

I forgot what this is like, but I'm a pretty quick study I can get up to speed pretty fast. From the first moment I actually spoke to her again in person after 27 years.... it was like No Time had passed. We've been on the phone talking 4 hours every day... and neither one of us can stop and neither one of us wants to. We both realize what we had and what we had was rare. In fact, I've never had that since ever in my life with anyone... except her, that's the point. I realized why I picked her, I just couldn't appreciate what that was....CONNECTION....THE MOST IMPORTANT THING! And at least we both agree about that because we see things the same way. It was always easy with her, and everything was simple.... right from the get-go.... and that's not changed one bit. We drove into the hardest deepest topics right off the bat... No Holds Barred.... and each time we did the connection got stronger... but even that wasn't without a few moments when we need to pull it back online. Yeah we are both of us so resilient... we bounce back like it's nothing. As I just told her today that it feels odd to even address such things without a fight.... it's nice to have an adult conversation with someone who thinks the same as you even if you can't agree on everything it's still not a problem. And at this point in time there's only one thing we haven't done and that's to see each other in person. We haven't even seen each other yet, but both of us agree... we don't even need to see each other for the connection ... as I said to her I never chose not to be with you, I wasn't really given that choice at the time. That's a fact that I'm without any doubt about. What I know for sure it's simply what I know, and what I found out and just catching up.... tells me she is more like me than I ever knew I just couldn't see it at the time. Just for fun here's the tale of the tape....

She is: an artist, fiercely independent, semi cantankerous and very outspoken, an advocate, from Texas a little rough around the edges and still retains some of her Texas drawl. She's still fix'in every now and then! She went out on her own to get away from her own family co-dependents when she was 16 years old and that's a fact. She's stubborn, she's fiery, has a bit of oppositional attitude but is a straight shooter. She has no tolerance for b*******, or playing games. She is not manipulative, actually gets along better with men than she does women but only because of what she's told me and what she's told me is exactly true. She cannot stand people talking around the subject, or not calling out the elephant in the room. This is what exactly what I ran into with her before, which I saw then as only a problem. You never had to guess or figure out what she was thinking or feeling, because she always let you know right then and there.... not the softest touch. LOL actually... More like getting hit in the face but she's a very strong personality and a strong woman... No Doubt! Too strong for her own good at times.... but at least you know where you stand. She's not low impact.... but extremely low maintenance. She is self-sufficient... and needs no one. Living alone for the past 5 years as she said has really taught her a lot. In fact one of her comments to me that she just said was " I never realized how many men are just like women"... and I replied back saying the same thing. She is not very feminine.... and extremely feminine. I see her now as more like a guy in many ways.... but that's just because she's less like most women. Most women are not so fiercely independent, hard-hitting and direct... and can roll with the punches better than most people I see. What she has in Spades though.... is an incredible ability for observation... and she goes straight to the bottom line.... exactly like me. But the most notable feature that I see in her that I completely forgot about.... she has almost no fear of anything.... for a woman I find that unusual to go straight to the deep end of the pool!

And she's a royal pain in the ass as I remember her well...talk about principled...whew, it fits the Texican profile to a T. Picture Slim Pickens... now in a slender female body! LOL like I said not the softest touch and a little rough around the edges... but you know right where she stands at all times there's no questioning that. And one of her most outstanding features is their sense of humor.... and she told me yesterday and I do remember this.... I made her laugh so hard she almost peed herself on several occasions. We have identical senses of humor... And for me that's one of the most important qualities I look for especially now.

And, and she is much much smarter than I ever gave her credit for... I didn't appreciate that at the time but I absolutely do now. I just knew it was "Something".... but I couldn't articulate it at the time. I knew how I felt.... I just didn't know how to say it.

I've learned a great deal in what these things are... and simply put... people with strong character features.... are characters.... authentically... it's not an act. There's nothing phoney about her.... equality I forgot about and had to be reminded of. What you see is what you get.... I appreciate that much more than I ever realized.

I was feeling a little unsure and a bit insecure about a couple of things, which I asked her in question form saying " I I don't remember you having a problem with my messiness habits? I don't remember you having a problem with me being verbose and long-winded? "In fact since I got her up to speed about my ADHD... ironically, she works with ADHD children now for a living. How about that one for a kicker.... the universe is Stranger Than Words can describe.

She found out as I found out with her... that she cannot have children. A devastating moment in her life that she's learned to deal with accordingly. We tried and it didn't happen... but I never found out exactly why? But her answer to all these things when I grilled her and questioner about this... her answer was no, that was never a problem. Just as I remembered it.... which was both part of the problem later and not part of the problem later.... those weren't her gripes at all.

And as she's found with men... A number of interesting discoveries, and one of them being the reverse of this... those qualities that I fell in love with instantly... as character features and Endearments.... other men as she found those were problems for them... I guess one person's garbage is another person's treasure.... our tastes and preferences are the same. Almost identical... we both just took that for granted. Taking it for granted that it wasn't a problem more than anything else which is why I was trying to search my memory banks and couldn't find anything.

Her problem and one main issue and it was exactly the same then as it is now.... co-dependents and my family... that I allowed get in the way. That was the first thing I apologized for before I said anything else... and told her I saw how much that hurt her, that I was stuck between a rock and a hard place and couldn't get unstuck. She went as long as she could stand it... before she had to leave for her own peace of mind and mental health.... she was singing my song exactly.

All we know now and it's all we know and nothing more.... we have to find out, and at the very minimum we have to meet in person again. There's simply no way we can't do that.

Connection interruptus... but nothing's changed and how we feel about each other and I have no doubt in my mind what will happen and neither does she. The only difference between now and then as we are both grown ups, we both learned our lessons the hard way, and we both came out feeling exactly the same for each other. Nothing's changed except our experience and even that was identical, too weird for words. I still have to slap my face occasionally... just to make sure I'm still awake! LOL

I'll come back and fill some more in it as time goes on... I only wanted to contribute what I've learned so far.

J, Connection......incredible

Submitted by dedelight4 on Mon, 12/04/2017 - 10:26

J, I'm so awed by your post, and thank you for sharing it. Connection.....what an incredible thing, and its something we all here are trying to achieve in one way or another. Most of us have a long way to go yet, and maybe one day can experience similar to what you and your ex are now enjoying. I think its great. And, its wonderful to read about both your learning experiences. I wish you both the very best. Have a blessed day.

Dede

Thank you Dede

Submitted by kellyj on Mon, 12/04/2017 - 14:34

I'm really learning and incredible amount of insight into myself from this experience. Not projecting into the future is the first thought on my mind. Limiting my thoughts about future, or future plans... is really a great way to remain present and keep a clear mind.

I'm actually kind of proud of myself, for accomplishing something really wonderful. Having fully forgiven and resolve the past, was the only way I could get here. I can talk about any men... or even past husband ( in considering this )... without it bothering me a bit. No jealous feelings, no insecurities in respect to anyone else, and only focusing on right now in the immediate future. I guess that's the test of fire right there... you won't know your work until after it's done... and then be tested once you get there in real time while it's happening.

It's actually really great to know what you're feeling, I know exactly what that is. And then be able to articulate it to another person... which one me always comes with questions. I don't need to know why.... only what she is going to do about it, what her motivations and intentions are, and getting right to the bottom line.... what do you want from this?

This hit me so unprepared and so out of the blue that there's no way I could have predicted or anticipated this whatsoever. I had no illusions or even leftover dreams about ever considering her again or having any kind of relationship with her whatsoever. Just listening to her story.... and hearing her for face value... I actually found it it was easy to tell if she was being upfront and honest with me which there's no reason for me to doubt.

The only reason I know this as I'm hearing it.... is because she was saying the exact same things that I have concluded and come to myself. Nothing she said was outside of how I feel about it.... and especially hearing the facts and the truth.... compared to my own mind filling in the blanks in what I didn't know or couldn't know.

All that's left is the connection.... after 30 odd some years, when that first happened... completely naive and innocently... but genuinely, knowing something was there, we both just followed our feelings at the time.... and all of that was easy. I did not feel like it was too good to be true... which I have to pause and hesitate now and Ponder on a bit..... but back then I just knew I wanted to be with this person because I enjoyed being around her. Her company was enough for me.

I remember so many small details now since now I can think about it more objectively.... and understanding where I failed and where I made all my mistakes.... had more to do with being put in front of a choice, that was really unfair to put on a person. Having to choose between one family... and your spouse.... is an impossible choice to make. The biggest thing that I realized I have learned.... is how to see men and women differently and how to see them the same.

Its funny now and almost too simple and easy to see.... but this female dynamic between females... my mom, my sisters... and myself I always knew.

But this unspoken female competition pissing match.... the underhanded digs, gossipy mean-spirited remarks, and the disapproving looks and put-downs... or all directed in One Direction. All that early debutante training... and all that Sugar and Spice... can instantly turn mean and nasty... when an interloper enters the group. The Conformity pressure is unbelievable.... and when you're not feeling that or getting that or I've ever seen that before in your life.... being suddenly directed at now the most important person in your life.. now you have to make a choice.

It wasn't being directed at me mind you.... but it was certainly there and I could see it, but I immediately rationalized it, made excuses for it, and dismissed it as not that big a deal. Kind of like.... come on get over it... can't you just ignore it like I do?

I remember this very well at my mother's funeral wake... Standing around reminiscing with some old childhood friends, and bringing up humorous anecdotes and experiences that had to do with my mother. I think my comment was like " yeah, I wanted nothing to do with that I simply ignored it."

Immediately two of my friends chimed in both at once talking over each other at the same time, saying "OMG... you know I totally ignored it, you were completely unaware of it and checked out" LOL

I realize now I had long since come to the realization there was absolutely nothing I could do. That part was right, I was right on the money. But I had to live with it everyday.... disassociation was my only option... so that established the pattern, of Simply sweeping things under the rug. The same pattern that my entire family ad and the way they dealt with it. But now this is an entirely different person.

Ironically in many ways... my ex was way ahead of the Curve compared to me... and in many ways, I was way ahead of the curve compared to her depending on what you're talking about.

I do have a very good memory and I remember things well and accurately. If I have just a few of the bits and pieces that I forgotten.... I've retained enough to complete the picture immediately.

The one that really hit me in the head like a ton of bricks.... was when my ex was leaving. She told me of the first time she ran into this right on our wedding day.

Her family... living thousands of miles away and not being able to travel or afford to.... left one person in her life to stand up for her... which was her best friend at the time. Her best friend arrived with her daughter.... and proceeded to the front of the church. Big mistake on my part ..... picking the church where my mother worshiped. Neither one of us was invested in that so that seemed like The Logical choice. You'd think? Huge mistake!!!! I had no idea what was coming.

Her friend and daughter took the appropriate seat in the front Pew of the church on the one side that traditionally would be for family members of the Bride. My mother immediately got up and ushered her back to the back of the Isles.... making her take a seat behind everyone else. Excuse my language... but that was Fucking unbelievable! If that is not the biggest slap in the face, I don't know what else is?

But I never heard of that story... until after it was too late. I Revisited that story again... and she put it this way....

I love you enough, and I cared about the relationship with your family. I was not about Thule that shit on you, because I saw that was tearing you apart.

I never understood one of her partying comments to me beforehand before she left. Now putting it in context her comment was " this is killing you"...

I didn't know what "This" ... I was at the time. But now I do.... and I even knew it then, right when she told me that story.

I needed something I could relate with or see myself.... her decision not to tell me I understand, but I also told her that I instantly got it.... because that's something I could relate with. You can't go back and change the past.... but you can put it into a different context that makes all of this makes sense.

As she told me.... I saw myself as the problem.... so my solution was to remove the problem... and make it all go away.

What she didn't know was just how Furious I became. I went into "full on action mode".....0 to 100... overnight. I stopped playing that role... and cut my family off cold turkey for quite some time.

I would filter and Screen all my calls on my mother and sisters... and excluded any and all information that had to do with me and my life whatsoever. Only if I had to go over to my mother's to help her out... as needed.... only as I had too if I determined her need was legitimate, but at no other time. I created a great amount of distance and a large bubble around me and space from my family. ( my dad had passed... and he was the only one to keep this in check ).

Another validating moment just two days ago was with my student who I'm teaching jewelry making and goldsmithing. She started in telling me some stories having to do with our work history together... and her, amounted to the same thing. "It's why I will not go back into the business.... " those bitch''s are mean, and not very nice people." Speaking in general about the sales staff, and the catty office politics, and backstabbing approach.

I said yeah I know... I was there too. I never want to be in environment ever again or I'm the only man in the room and have to live with that. There's nothing mean or nasty or then a girl fight in a physical sense.... No Holds Barred there either! Hitting below the belt is the first place they go.... right when they walk in the front door! LOL

I remembered Brene Brown's video again.... when she reference the TV commercial where it said "I cook the bacon and fried up in the pan, and then go out and blah blah blah".. having to play multiple roles that are completely incompatible with one another dealing with womens shame.

The one that I remember and referring to this was a commercial or three lady friends come over to another lady's house.... and the first one in the door says "Fried Fish last night?"... with her nose in the air. LOL

Yeah Doll.... what's it to you you got a problem with it? LOL

I can play a dual role too...in yo face! Yo...mamma! LOL

It's really weak! That's all I can say now.

Thank you Dede

Submitted by kellyj on Mon, 12/04/2017 - 15:02