I am really not sure what to do. Our relationship has devolved into just awful. My wife has thrown things at me, pushed me, criticizes me constantly. From her perspective, I’m withdrawn. She’s lonely. I haven’t planned things for her or for our family (kids 11 and 13). She believe I don’t co-parent with her and that she’s carrying the emotional burden of the home. And she is. In part because I’ve abdicated and in part because she’s simply elbowed me out. I do things with my kids, I spend time with them, I believe I’m a good father. All this context to write this:
We are both adhd but in this she presents like a the non-adhd spouse.
Friday we went to an outdoor on the lawn movie. I packed everything. I didn’t bring plate. I thought we’d all eat out of restaurant containers. She excoriated me and talked to me like I was an idiot. For her it’s about the bigger picture – what other details are you not managing? I can’t rely on you and I’m stressed.
Saturday and Sunday I got my daughter ready for her first overnight backpacking trip. We went through the checklist – but didn’t finish it completely. We packed up the pack and hiked four miles. We went to target for missing items.
At this point, with the checklist unfinished and the bag still packed, I make a bunch of assumptions. 1) we’ll finish it later, 2) her mother will want to go through it since she doesn’t trust me, 3) we’ve got two more days 4) her mother is taking her to the orientation on Monday (they leave Tuesday) so the two of the will figure the rest out. And then the day gets busy. I communicate NONE of this to my wife, who is out and about.
Fast forward to the end of a very busy Sunday. I made a big list of things to do for the backpacking trip, for the house, for our upcoming late August vacation. I’m crossing things off. But there was an email I didn’t read about everything needing to be ready Monday morning for the orientation and my daughter needing to bring a lunch. Well now it’s late and my wife just goes off on me for how she needs to do everything. She’s sarcastic, snotty and mean. But I have to admit that I validate the underlying anger. She’s frustrated and she feels alone and put upon. I wish we could handle these things differently, that she wouldn’t humiliate me in front of the kids. Or that she’d let me fix it and let it go. Or realize everything doesn’t have to be perfect. But it does stress her and I can see that.
SO here’s where I am. The whole family’s been diagnosed ADHD for about 2.5 years. I am on meds. I’ve got a therapist. I worked with a coach. I’ve listened to so many podcasts and read books and articles. But I can’t remember the plates and I cant remember to read the email. And I am so tired and angry. I am so sick of being yelled at when I am trying my best. I understand men stick women with the emotional labor. I’ve made suggestions about how to split things up and track them and she just says I won’t be able to trust you’ll do it.
I am at the end of my rope. I can’t take it anymore. I read the Orlov book and it’s us. But she won’t engage with me on it. I don’t have a choice but to divorce her because my self esteem has been worn to nothing. Yes, I forgot the plates and 100s of other things over the years. And no, I didn’t read that email and I made unstated assumptions. But I don’t know how to remember the plates and to read the emails. We can split, and I’ll continue to work on me and at least I’ll be yelled at less simply because we don’t be living together.
I am writing in the hope that someone gives some great advice that can save this marriage or help me remember the plates, though I am not hopeful.
I am at a point where I plan to say I can't figure out how to remember the plates or to read the emails and I can't figure out how to tolerate you treating me in toxic and emotionally abusive ways I respond to your real and often understandable frustrations.
(and yes I know it's not about the plates or the email)
Packing
Submitted by Swedish coast on
So sorry about your story.
Apart from everything else, don't parents have a lot on their plate nowadays? School and activities continuously send imperative e-mails and claim this and that. I may not have ADHD, but I still miss important things like teacher's conferences and my children sometimes lack sunscreen and the right kind of shoes for class activities. Society, as I've understood it, isn't designed for people in general, with our prehistoric brains evolved for an entirely different life. It doesn't seem to be kind to the ADHD mind, either.
I got it from a professional, that tasks in the home could be split into time-sensitive and non-time-sensitive tasks. ADHD partners might be better off doing things that don't require what your daughter's back pack does: being perfectly finished 8 sharp on Monday. There are a lot of other things that matter but are less time-sensitive. Like general laundry, cleaning, dishes, car and bike maintenance. My ADD husband and I got the advice to try and merge all those tasks to him, and direct time-sensitive tasks to me. (Not that that has made every teacher's conference happen.) Time-sensitive is things like: help with school assignments, contact with children's friends parents, Christmas presents, children's clothes for celebrations (including well-timed laundry), birthdays, dinner parties and so on. Sure, the list is very close to that for emotional work. But it's better for me to be relieved of a lot of other things, so I can focus on the ones that are really painful if they slip.
I have nothing to teach anybody, my life is a mess. But maybe something of the above could apply to what you describe.
I hope you and your wife can find peace together.
Who can teach me to remember the plate?
Submitted by MelissaOrlov on
I really like the idea about time sensitive and not time-sensitive, which could work well providing you have a reminder system in place that really works for you.
Another problem that you describe but don't name is that your wife is so angry she has become abusive. Physically and emotionally. It's not just you that needs help here. You're probably aware of that.
If you are going to stay together, you need professional help. If you had time and she was even remotely willing to work with you I would suggest that you go in this order: my couples seminar that starts in the Fall plus you doing individual coaching with Katherine Buoscio of my consulting group...then couples consulting with one of my more senior consultants.
All in, about another 6-12 months (more likely 12) to see if you can BOTH turn things around. She has plenty of work to do, too. Stopping the abuse being first on the list.
Even if you don't decide to stay together, you do need to have a reminder system that is 'good enough'...because ADHD-impacted relationships have predictable patterns, and one of them is that if you can't remember to do things at least well-enough (as you and your partner define it) and don't get out ahead of some of the regular patterns, you're going to be in for a lot of fights over tasks in ANY relationship you are in. So the individual coaching is likely still a good idea...you can find more on the ADHDmarriage consulting group here, and Katherine (who would be the right match for you) here.
As for your partner...while the abuse is obviously not healthy, and she sounds as if she has become somewhat inflexible around your issues, it is really hard to feel as if you are carrying a lot of the task burden. This is particularly true for women with ADHD. For me, as a non-ADHD partner, I can handle a lot of stuff...might not like it, etc, but it's not HARD for me. Women with ADHD can also handle a lot, but quite a few have told me what a toll it takes on them to balance the inequities of cognitive load AND have ADHD, which makes every single task harder.
Good luck to you. Right now you are both in what sounds like marital hell.
Thank Melissa Orlov
Submitted by AlleyOop23 on
I came into this site to get your perspective. My wife is so angry, she wants me to go first - to start living and being different, and then maybe she'll feel differently. I'm trying to sort out my own perspective. I've told her we need to work on this together and that I can't simply shrug off the abuse and then plan a great life. But I sometimes wondered - should I be trying harder or is that something an abuse victim would think? Thanks this was affirming. Thanks also for the suggestions. Amd yes I am in an abusive relationship.
Trying harder and abuse
Submitted by MelissaOrlov on
Yes, abuse victims often conclude that they need to be trying harder. It's one of the hallmarks of emotional abuse victims.
I think the work that needs to be done here is around boundaries. Even if the abusive behavior is in response to frustration and anger at your situation, it is still the choice that your partner is making and that is on your partner, not on you. So - you do the work that helps you bring your best self AS YOU DEFINE IT to your relationship and request that your partner do the work that helps the partner bring their best self to the relationship as your partner defines 'best.' Then see what you have. If you partner won't get out of the blame game, then you don't really have anywhere positive to go.
As far as being worried that doing couples work or work on yourself points to you as the problem, in my book t points to you as the person willing to engage in doing the work you feel you need to do. That takes courage. And, it's not a loss. If you have work to do, then you do...may as well do it now when it might positively impact things. Either your partner will respond positively or not.
If you do couples work, MAKE SURE to select a professional who understands ADHD. Else it could be a waste of your money. You could try someone in my consulting group or someone on the resources page...or Google anyone who might be in your area and has a large part of their practice dedicated to couples impacted by ADHD. (Verify this...someone who sometimes works with couples impacted by ADHD may not be that knowledgeable.)
Question about your suggestion
Submitted by AlleyOop23 on
Thanks again for your suggestions. I have a question - if we're in couples seminar and I'm in coaching - what is she doing? Will couples seminar in some way help her individually? She's got cptsd, she's perimenopausal and part of why she takes the burden is she insists on things being done her way, on her timeline and perfectly. I can get all the help there but neither I nor anyone else will ever get that right.
My concern is that if we're in couples counseling and I'm in coaching it reinforces her belief that I am 100% of the problem and she has no work to do.
I worked with an adhd coach. I see a therapist. She tells me she cries every day and won't get help because the issue is if I were different she'd be happy.
thsnks for reading. Im loooking for hope and may just be past it.
Marital hell
Submitted by nefun76 on
This is tough. I applaud him for at least trying to perform some roles though he's struggling.
My ex was so entitled , didn't feel like he should have any duties in the household. I reduced and belittled myself just to keep my family together for 15yrs while he carried on doing his thing, leaving almost Al the entire financial, emotional and physical burden t to me and cheating with other women. He also tried his best to evade child support during the divorce but the judge saw through him and I got a good settlement. Asides his ADHD he' is acutely selfish and stingy to the kids and I, only his needs mattered.
I hope your wife can give you a chance especially as you are intentional about change. It's really tight for the non-ADHD spouse
This is what this is like
Submitted by AlleyOop23 on
I’m moving from believing I deserve this to not. It’s totally accurate I’ve not participated in gift purchasing and other planning. What’s omitted is when I’ve actually sat down amd asked her to plan these things like she wants she just gets irritated about my style of participation. YES there’s truth amd my culpability in what she’s complaining about. My responses are genuine not sarcastic.
Me
I ordered [daughter] a [brand] backpack for her birthday. She’s forgotten how much she wants one. Telling you bc it arrives today
Spouse
Um…she and I have been looking together. She needs a specific size for school. Not sure thst will work. Please dont try to overcompensate by doing the this kind of thing.
It’s just the same as fun dad stuff. You’re not actually acknowledging what’s going on just randomly and sporadically buying something and not communicating
Don’t send a bunch of text justifying. It’s the same pattern of temporary pro activness that is indicative of attempts to participate in your personal life without actually engaging
It’s upsetting and disrespectful
Of what I do for them and how hard I work to meet their needs. You should be engaged and communicate not of doing t hit a separately and randomly
Me
On the [place just she and I went to] trip she went over it and over it. I thought it would be fun and a throwback to the trip
Spouse
And please dont go on about how I’m critical and you do things wrong. I’m sick of trying to settle for a level of participation that just feel sad and disconnected and frankly passive aggressive to me
It’s fine to have reason but never talking to me is the problem. I’ve spent their entire lives doing these things with no help whatsoever and you’re popping in randomly. It’s minimizing and fun dad and isn’t something f you’ll keep up so I’ll just have to keep doing what I do while you get extra credit for you’re o ce I. A while purchase after I spend hour searching f then intérêt for the best thing
Just fucking get what I’m saying and how upsetting and disrespectful and sexist it is so I don’t she. To add this to the ducking g pile of upsetting and hurtful things I have to tolerate
I keep asking you to communicate and engage and do these things together so we can be a couple and family and parents together but you just keep up the disconnection and separation of everything. It’s only exacerbating the issues.
She never mentioned that pack when we’ve looked online. And again…yes I’ve spent actual time doing this not just quickly and randomly purchasing something so thanks for just ignoring all of the time and effort I put I to everything for them
And now cue how overwhelming this is for you but not at all how awful this feels for me.
Except thst I’m completely right and justified in feeling this and I’m not even remotely sorry about feeling this way because absolutely what it’s been like for me and you can’t even bring yourself to try for one second to do anything together like simply her birthday. The plans are made and the presents are purchased. You missed it. You never asked. You dont get to drop in like this
Me
I would never intentionally minimize what you do for them snd the family. You work hard at all of it and everyone’s lives are better for having you in them.
Spouse
This isn’t sufficient if for some reason you think it is
And you’re letting g another life moment go and you could have engaged and planned it with me
You’re entirely and will likely miss the point of all of this. And I imagine just think “i was just being nice and I just bought a backpack.” And that’s not remotely what has happened here
And that passive response you routinely have is a major part of the issue. You don’t see what you’re actually missing and what you’re leaving me with and how you pop in in such a male way like you’ve just been here the whole time celebrating and buying gifts when 99% of what they’ve ever received or had planned for their holidays and birthdays were all a total surprise for you. And that should seem like a much bigger issue to you!
So sorry I’m such a fucking bitch and poor you just can’t win. Yep. It’s yoy that can’t win. Not me not moms not women. It’s definitely not something you’re missing and don’t understand. All you have to do is pro-actively participate in your life and life and in general in a a consistent manner and not last minute or retroactive repair. It’s not that hard if you actually care about the people in your life, care to have people in your life and what things from life thst come from pursuit and not just whatever is delivered to you by me or passes in front of you
Yep…a simple backpack purchase unleashed this. So maybe instead of thinking what this means for you you can think about how big this all is for me (and moms) that all of this comes from a seemingly simple act on your part
What all I might be doing you never consider and the ways you’re not doing your part in this life. And please don’t go on about your failure becuase it just makes it about you and takes over the whole narrative and nothing comes from it. Be uncomfortable and consider how big this actually is and how accountable you actually are.
I have expressed these same sentiments so many times. It’s degrading to hear that you don’t understand what I’m saying or experiencing. And I already found her a backpack after hours of searching and asking her questions. Not just quickly and simply throwing money at a task like it was thoughtful.
AlleyOop23
Submitted by AdeleS6845 on
When you said:
"You don’t see what you’re actually missing and what you’re leaving me with and how you pop in in such a male way like you’ve just been here the whole time celebrating and buying gifts when 99% of what they’ve ever received or had planned for their holidays and birthdays were all a total surprise for you."
A thought hit me. I can see your wife's point but she is definitely missing a lot. What she is describing in your case is not "typical male behavior."
What she is not getting is that ADHD makes this situation completely different for you. What you did with regards to the backpack happened because of your ADHD, from my point of view.
It is true what she says so I'm not trying to invalidate what she's feeling. I experienced that same thing with my ex-husband. I would do 99% of everything and he would take credit for all the good things, for everything that I did. He did absolutely nothing to lighten the mental load and refused to listen to me or understand.
I apologize I have no solutions for you or your situation just to tell you that I can see your point of view as well as your wife's. Understanding goes both ways.
Let me ask you this as I try
Submitted by AlleyOop23 on
Let me ask you this as I try to gain perspective - I’m im no way refusing to listen or understand and I have NEVER allowed anyone including my kids to give me credit when it was due to her. I will own what I own but that part of her perspective is not accurate. I shower her with acknowledgment alone, in front of the kids and in front of groups.
She makes these plans without including me amd always has. Which hurts. When I've tried to get involved she's gotten irritated because I'm not thinking about it the same way she is. Amd she does more for the kids and makes her own life harder than I tho l we should be doing amd gets furious when I try to engage on that. For example She will schedule them in a way that makes days crazy and I'll say look they can't make it to all these things, we should have just declined one of them.
I've presented her some solutions such as the game L"Fair Play" which allocates household tasks and tracks them and involves setting standards for completion amd a cadence for meetings. She only says she won't try it as she knows in advance I won't follow through. So, I've tried to solve this.
part of the reason for the post is trying to sort through whether her communication is normal or abusive. When you were frustrated being your ex did you talk to him like this? Am I being "too sensitive?"
Id like her to get what she needs while taking care of myself.
Did I....
Submitted by AdeleS6845 on
Did I ever speak to my ex the way she is speaking to you? No I never spoke to my ex disrespectfully, yelled at him or berated him. I was never "sarcastic, snotty or mean" to him in the 20 years we were together. He was minimally involved with the details of our children's lives, because He chose not to be. I did not shut him out. I took over, because if I didn't do everything, who else would do it?
Our marriage was dysfunctional because He was abusive. He is neurotypical as am I. I could never bring up even the smallest thing to him, because I was afraid of his anger. He was always right, there was no reasoning with a narcissist.
I finally stood up to him near the end, but it did no good. He mocked me and scoffed at me.
From my experience, when my ex labled me as "too sensitive" or anything else, that was him being dismissive.
I'm sure as you read i my
Submitted by AlleyOop23 on
I'm sure as you read i my wife's perspective it resonates with your lonely and awful experience. Amd of course you see this all through my little keyhole window which reflects my own bias. I say all that to say this - Your post back to me was affirming, however, in an odd way. As I read the response sympathetic in part to her experience I realized in my reaction I was moving closer to the conviction that I'm in an abusive relationship and that despite all my faults I don't deserve to be treated like this.
She has ADHD too
Submitted by Swedish coast on
Just reflecting on that you said earlier your wife also has ADHD.
I'm the non-ADD partner and certainly I've lost it from time to time. Mostly because I panicked from stress, carrying a senseless amount of responsibility for the family and wasn't allowed enough resources for the job. My severe ADD husband often hasn't contributed due to his symptoms.
Add your wife's ADHD to my situation. I would be very surprised if she were always pleasant.
I feel compassion for both of you. Please don't forget how difficult this may be for her.
I see the difficulty she has.
Submitted by AlleyOop23 on
I see the difficulty she has. I try to be compassionate. She hasn't said "I love you" in three years. She won't acknowledge or apologize for throwing a book at me, shoving me, punching me in the chest, hitting me with a pillow repeatedly and as hard as she could. Amd she won't commit to not doing those things again. On our last serious argument she would not stop yelling at me so I opened the back door and went outside. She locked me out, ran to the front and grabbed the spare key and went upstairs amd would not respond. When I crawled through a window she yelled at me for doing that.
So when you say you've lost it - is that what you mean? And does your perspective remain the same knowing I'm a man?
this has been really helpful. I realize that I am just really really angry. I'm not sure I can stick it out regardless of how much of this i know I own.
I’m sorry
Submitted by Swedish coast on
I'm sorry to hear this.
(When I lose it my voice sounds hard or shrill but I've rarely said anything unacceptable. I always apologize if I've been less than fair. My husband and I each have been a tiny bit violent (like in distraction vigorously breaking a stick which then has accidentally hit the other's finger) and we've forgiven each other for that.)
What you describe is on a whole other scale. I'm sorry if I came through as dismissive of your pain. It is obviously very real, and I'm so sorry. Violence is not excusable in men or women.
I do hope you find a way. No matter who owns what we all deserve a safe space and our feelings respected.
She has never apologized to
Submitted by AlleyOop23 on
She has never apologized to me without an apology being dragged out of her. And what I've listed is aside from the things that have been said. As I read back over this whole thread I realize Im not sure what I started out trying to get out of this. I appreciate your reply. I really do want to be part of the solution to a better life and not part of the problem. And I really am trying to figure out how much of what is coming at me is a legitimate product of my own symptoms and behavior. Thank you for the time you've invested in helping me. I've learned a lot here.
I understand your wife
Submitted by BurnedOutLady on
I am totally new here, this is my first comment. This is the first time I've been in a forum like this about AHDH. Years ago I was in one on narcissism to help me deal with my mother. But now I have an ADHD spouse and we have been together nearly 12 years. In our relationship, sadly, I think I am a lot like your wife. All I can tell you is that it seems your wife is dealing with a level of frustration that is driving her a little mad. I'm not saying it's your fault, maybe its hers, or both of you, or whatever, of course I can't say. But I just really understand that level of frustration and anger. It's real, for her anyway. I am also at the point of divorce, so ... that's why I'm here. Again, no one should be abusive, but it seems that on some level your wife feels that she too is being abused in some way. Definitely she has expectations of you that she feels she has communicated and that you are not meeting. But how clear have your agreements been? Have you actually agreed to things and not followed through? Has she not been clear enough about what she needs? Are you just forcing her into doing a lot of emotional labor explaining what she needs instead of really thinking about it and doing it yourself? Things to consider. My ADHD husband acts so clueless about my needs its almost comical. He saddles me with all kinds of responsibilities after he has overcommitted to projects he can't follow through with, and then disappears - literally - to go do things he's more interested in, then acts like he doesn't understand what was needed. It's enough to make a person really go insane.
I hope you get what you need
Submitted by AlleyOop23 on
I hope you get what you need in all respects. I appreciate you taking the time to provide a post as I'm looking for perspective and trying to figure out my end of things.
I didn't intend to get into being physically and emotionally abused but now I have so that's that. When you say "but" it means that everything that comes before the "but" is discounted or at least that's how I take it. I assume you did not intend to discount the fact that I'm being abused. I'm not on this board justifying my own behavior oR blaming my wife for it. Please don't justify her hitting, shoving, trapping locking out. Nothing I've done or haven't done means I deserve that.
Now I really feel like your wife
Submitted by BurnedOutLady on
So, maybe you can notice that your immediate response to my post is to be defensive, to act victimized, and to put words in my mouth. You tell me I am justifying her behavior which I am not and clearly said I was not. My "but" does not discount any of your experience, and is clearly preceding a statement that suggests your wife is also feeling abused by you in some way. The experience of living with someone with ADHD can feel like abuse to the spouse when the ADHD person and cannot and-or will not understand the problems which are relentless and ongoing for years. If you can't listen to me - a stranger on a forum - and comprehend what I am saying without defensiveness and misinterpretation, probably you can't really listen and hear your wife which is exactly what came across in her written response to you. Her intense overwhelming frustration at trying to communicate what she needs and you failing to comprehend it. Sorry to be so blunt, but this is likely driving her crazy. If you want to see yourself as the victim, and focus on that, you can do so and probably will end up with no relationship with your wife. This was the first and the last post I will make on this forum because I definitely don't need to have frustrating experiences in communication with other ADHD men on top of the ones I have with my husband! Best of luck to you.
You're right, I can't see it.
Submitted by AlleyOop23 on
You're right, I can't see it. I read her text thread and feel like a victim. And you're voicing her perspective almost word for word. I immediately discounted and dismissed your response in part because it wasn't what I wanted to hear and in part because im so angry over being berated and humiliated that I can't see my way back to her hurt. She does feel abused because she feels neglected and unseen. I got on here to get the kind of perspective you've lent and it's given me something to think about.
Your response may have given me additional insight into why my why refuses to apologize hitting me or committing to not hitting me again.
I hope your own angry response does not mean that you in turn identify with my wife because you berate, belittle, punch and shove your own husband and believe I should give her a break on those things.
No one should be subjected not abuse not even men with adhd who are married to women.
I don't hit
Submitted by BurnedOutLady on
But I have thrown plates and glasses. I have screamed like a lunatic. I have locked my door. I have told him a hate him. I have told him I can't stand him and want to leave. And every time this happens I feel absolutely wrecked after. Like I have a spiritual hang over from hell. This isn't how I want to be. I'm sure your wife doesn't want to find herself acting like this. I mean, I don't know her, and I am obviously projecting all over the place here, but who wants to act like a crazy person? Who wants to lose their sh!t and treat another person with such anger? It's not fun for anyone. People want to be their best selves. We should have partnerships that help us to be our best selves.
I appreciate that you are trying to listen to me now. My sense from you wife's words is that she has given up and getting what she needs, she doesn't trust you at all to listen, she has no faith that what she says will actually be heard.
With my husband, for years as he was becoming aware of his destructive ways, he would always preface every discussion with "We are both wrong". He could not discuss his own problems without insisting that I take some blame. He would say "I admit to being most of the problem" but he had to insist that we also focus on me. On my anger. The way I can escalate (which I do admit). And his sense that I am just a critical person, without EVER EVER EVER recognizing that he does arguably problematic things that lead to the criticism and the anger that escalates.
I felt that if, every time, his focus was on also making me wrong, he really wasn't actually ready to cop to his behavior. And he wasn't.
This is not an equal situation. Nor is it a chicken and egg mystery as to why our relationship is so fraught. There is a chicken in this scenario that lays the egg of trouble. He is the chicken. He is causing the problems. I am reacting. Maybe I am reacting badly, maybe I am escalating, maybe he is driving me insane. But if he is 70% of the problem and I am 30% of the problem, what will happen if he deals with his 70%? The 30% will likely disappear. I will not escalate when there is not a big fat egg of trouble being laid at my doorstep all the time.
You have to decide if you want to be with your wife. At all. If you are done, you should just end it. Get the divorce as amicably as you can. But if you want the relationship at all, PLEASE consider just giving up your pride and defensiveness and blame for just one minute and go to her with full humility, full apology, and true love for her. Tell her you know you've caused her a lot of grief. Tell her you are so sorry. Tell her you want to learn to listen and hear her, to see who she really is and what she really needs. Ask her to help you do that. Tell her maybe you will not succeed right away but you will try your hardest because she means so much to you. Agree to therapy or whatever works. And if at that point she can't accept it, maybe things have gone too far with you both. I know in my marriage we have done immense damage. But we still love each other at the core and I am willing to try again. Maybe I am really crazy for doing that!
this is actually amazing as
Submitted by AlleyOop23 on
this is actually amazing as you are a perfect stand in. And my greatest fault in this marriage right now is my defensiveness. Everyone's perspective is naturally skewed and I don't believe I'm an exception. I say that to say this - I've gone to her and told her I understand she's endured literally decades of lonely neglect amd stress in trying to rely on me. I've actually repeated this a few times. I didn't realize I had adhd until two years ago and when I learned I had I realized many things I had dismissed were valid. I wish I could go back but I can't. I've gotten into therapy gotten an adhd coach and gotten onto meds. But you're right - she doesn't trust me. And she wants me to be different so she can feel different. She's refused to go to couples therapy though I've asked several times.
i am trying hard to be better. I just can't do it on my own and I cannot endure days of ceaseless criticism that stretch into weeks. And here's the thing if you've read this thread - I can't figure out how to remember the plates. I will
always be better and I actually AM better but I'll probably always bat less than .1000. Amd just like before I always own my mistakes, don't blame and will always fix them.
I work and she doesn't. That's her choice and I supported it. I own a business. When I got diagnosed I realized I'd set my staff up amd policies all as one giant coping mechanism. Since getting on adderal I've doubled it. But it is depleting. I don't raise this ever as an excuse or a reason why my mistakes should be overlooked. But I swear it's like she thinks I go to work and rink coffee and read the paper all day. Amd her impulsive spending (and my enabling codependent unwillingness or inability to set a boundar) mean we are not as well off as we could be. .
anyway I'm throwing that all out there hoping you'll see something in it. thank you for what you've written and for what you will write if you choose to continue. You've helped me.
I do currently think that given our anger and her unwillingness to go to Counseling together we aren't going to make it and we're damaging our kids.
But I'm not on here to be told I'm right - I can't learn and be better in this relationship, married or divorced, all my other relationships amd any future intimate relationship if I don't try to understand my blind spots
And also I hope you will accept this in the helping vein in which it is intended. If you are throwing things and calling names you are an abuser. If it's reactive abuse - that's different. (E.g. name calling in response or hitting back). Only you can gauge that. Throwing things is the same as hitting. There's a common belief that when women abuse men it's not as bad. That's not accurate. Blaming the person for abusing them "you made me do it" - is just more abuse. here's just one resource. Fwiw my wife tells me it's my fault she hit me and it's just not a big deal since she can't really hurt me. And I am struggling to pick myself up and be the new version of me when I wonder where I lost my self respect.
https://www.thepersonalgrowthproject.com/get-the-book.html
And Iim
goikg to recopy this into a new thread it's too skinny now
Nope.
Submitted by BurnedOutLady on
You were doing great until the end. So, I already discussed my reactive behavior, why it happens, and what I think about it, which is that it is not good, and that it hurts me as well.
What you wrote:
"If you are throwing things and calling names you are an abuser. If it's reactive abuse - that's different. (E.g. name calling in response or hitting back)."
Does that mean you think it is NOT abuse because someone feels justified in their responses? Or is mutual abuse okay?
"Throwing things is the same as hitting."
Literally, it is not. Unless you are aiming at someone to hurt them. I never threw anything AT him, I threw it on the floor to break it, because I was feeling insane from dealing with him. Very sad, some of my favorite dishes! But that was years ago and I've never done it since. What's the point in breaking my best plates when it doesn't change a damn thing anyway.
"There's a common belief that when women abuse men it's not as bad. That's not accurate."
And I never said it was.
"Blaming the person for abusing them "you made me do it" - is just more abuse."
Yeah that's a pretty slippery statement there. Totally dependent on the situation I would say.
I understand that you are struggling with the level of vitriol and anger your wife has and you are feeling abused and you want that to be heard. You don't want to accept that from her, no matter what you may have done to contribute to the situation. I'm not saying you should accept it. I only ever wanted to say that it seemed to me that your wife was beyond her wits end and there must be something you are missing in this situation. Focusing on her abusiveness isn't necessarily the way to heal the situation. However, if you feel you are trying and you are being set back to a serious degree by her rage, then it does seem her rage is also keeping you two from healing. Is healing what she wants? Does she even believe its possible?
Your situation with your wife is certainly too complex for me to assess as a stranger on the Internet. If she also has ADHD and won't seek counseling with you, it sounds like she isn't holding up her end of things. But I don't know the details or her side of the story.
I have done couples therapy with my husband and I just told him yesterday I want to start again, this time withe ADHD component clearly on the table.
I know that my anger reactions can be awful and escalating. I had a lot of guilt about it for years until I did my own therapy, and realized that I created the anger reaction in order to deal with my narcissistic mother. I learned how to blow my top like a volcano in order to overcome her domination and control. I realized that this was kind of like a super power for me. It did actually help me defend myself in that relationship. But it was not appropriate for my marriage. It did not help. However, it is now difficult to stop the anger reaction once it gets going. And I am hair trigger with him, as soon as I encounter certain behaviors from him. I get angry, but really the anger is a manifestation of the most intense frustration and feeling unseen, unappreciated, and misunderstood.
If you are damaging your kids, you might want to consider separation as best for everyone. I'm not convinced people with these kinds of problems can ever have really functional relationships. But again, it comes down to whether you really love each other and are willing to give it a last try. Then she also has to try.
Maybe put it in writing
Submitted by BurnedOutLady on
I'm not a therapist or counselor, but I am thinking that you guys really need clear agreements. You might need to put them in writing. What exactly do you need from each other? What can you agree to and follow through with? Don't leave it vague. Don't have general expectations. I have expectations of my husband that he seems genuinely surprised about, while to me they are common sense. I have to be explicit. I have to ask him for things I don't think I should have to ask for. Maybe you two need to sit down when you are not angry and discuss the details of your life together and what you both feel you need. If there is no way to do this without anger and escalation, then you need a third party. A therapist. But also maybe what you need primarily is for both of you to come to the table in good faith, believing that you both want what is best for everyone, and that you love each other. I swear it is sometimes hard for me to believe that my husband loves me. But he does. I have to remember it.
I deeply appreciate
Submitted by AlleyOop23 on
I deeply appreciate everything you wrote and the time you've taken. I regret the tenor of my first response- you were only trying to provide the help and insight I had actually asked for. I've learned as much in my response as what I read. Thank you. I didn't realize you broke the plates on the floor and it's not my business in the first place. In struggling amd not the best version of myself. I hope you work it out. Fwiw my wife's behavior is an extension of her family's dynamic.
I'll take the suggestions I've gotten here including yours. If she won't go
to counseling or if she's truly done them we'll divorce. We're not happy as it is now. Again, thank you.
last thing
Submitted by BurnedOutLady on
Thank you for your response here. A couple things I am thinking of: She may not have faith that therapy will work for you, or she doesn't want to face her own problems. One? Both? You need to get to the core of the resistance. Also, somewhere in your comments you mentioned that you had gone to her with apologies for all the pain you caused her. I think you said "a couple of times" but I can't remember. Anyway, I just want to say ... that probably isn't anywhere near enough. I am again speaking from my own experience here, and just suggesting that you may need to extend yourself much more than you realize to make up for the pain that you seem ready to acknowledge you have caused her. You have mentioned loneliness and neglect. All I can tell you is that the heart of a woman can close down into a hardened fist and it will take a lot more than a couple of apologies to soften and open it again. When my husband treats me really badly, one apology doesn't cut it. And after years of ADHD trouble, I can feel totally shut down and basically in hiding from him. It gets harder and harder to coax me out of my hiding, because I know it is all going to happen again. As I mentioned, I know that he loves me, and right now I am willing to take more emotional risks to love him back because I know his fucking up is not fully under his control. But he does have to do the work. I'm saying, you need to find ways to show your wife you love her - and try to make it ways that SHE really wants, not just what feels comfortable or easy for you to do. Try to soften her heart toward you.
The heart of a woman
Submitted by sickandtired on
The heart of a woman can close down to a hard fist... I've never heard a more accurate description of how I felt trying to protect myself from my now ex. You have a lot of insight into both sides of this issue. I hope Alleyoop can fully embrace your great advice.
See new response outside thread
Submitted by AlleyOop23 on
Started new
Moved up in thread
Submitted by AlleyOop23 on
Ive sat and listened and validated for hours for 3 years now. I've apologized at length many many times (it's more than a couple I was being too quick). I just can't be in a postion where the abuse escalates. If I call the police they'll take me not her. Amd I won't fight back. She could seriously hurt me.
thanks for the advice. I'll try what I can.
I'm sorry that you're
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
I'm sorry that you're experiencing abuse. It seems that you have a good handle on your role in the relationship and that you are working on yourself. Unfortunately or fortunately, you have control only of your own behavior and feelings, not your wife's. If she's not willing to change, the marriage either won't change or it will get worse for you. I don't advise staying in a relationship in which abuse is occurring.