Having only recently read "The ADHD Effect on Marriage" I am currently working through the anger and resentment that has built up over 20 years and 17 years of diagnosed and untreated ADHD. The book has helped me understand my responses to ADHD symptoms and the significant impact they've had on our relationship, but there is one concept I am struggling with...the idea that "I respect my spouse's inherent right to make his or her own decisions and live by the consequences, whether I like what what he or she is doing." My wife already lives with many of the consequences of her actions that might be frustrating to me but are not a huge problem, but I would love for my wife to live with the consequences of her actions around chronic overspending and lack of involvement in the finances. I have owned the consequences our entire married lives and don't really see a way out of owning that because no one will ever convince me that living beyond one's means is prudent or justified. Although mostly unknown to me before we got married, it is clear in hindsight that my wife's behavior was well entrenched when she entered the marriage. I ultimately took over the finances for two reasons: 1.) I did not have the money to continually pay off hundreds of dollars of overdraft charges on my wife's checking account and 2.) I knew my wife came to the marriage with some debts (ultimately created by her ex-husband...at least he got the blame), but did not know the extent of the debt until after we got married. If I didn't take over, I feared that we would never get out from under it. As it was, the extent of the debt took more than 10 years to pay off.
Since I found out about her significant debt, she has retreated from any financial responsibility or accountability our entire married lives. She won't engage in any capacity where I end up managing the finances alone. From my perspective, her only relationship with money relates to spending. She does work and contributes about 25% to our monthly income, but has no interest in what she makes or when she gets paid. She avoids budgets, income, account balances, savings goals and will not engage in how spending directly impacts our entire financial picture. Our chronic disconnect on finances is what finally pushed me to force us to see a marriage counselor (that's how I see it). After 18 years, I was exhausted by her single response of "I don't spend much money" when the topic of money comes up. I can't understand why she doesn't recognize or acknowledge that the mortgage, car payments, insurance and utilities are spending. The only spending she has any recognition of is related to having fun in a retail setting or going out to a restaurant. In understand that my wife can be impulsive, but I am struggling to understand how ADHD plays into spending without any appreciation, recognition or knowledge for how spending impacts our overall finances. As an aside, there is no question this ADHD symptom and our respective responses have set up a parent-child dynamic in our marriage where I have continually wondered "where is the partner I thought I married?"
If any other couples have dealt with chronic overspending and total lack of involvement of an ADHD partner in the finances, I would love to get your perspective(s). Whether you were the one spending or the one managing the spending, if you have direct experience to share, I am hoping to better understand 1.) the mindset of someone with ADHD as it relates to spending 2.) what blocks someone with ADHD from engagement with the finances and 3.) any strategies you've used to come together on the finances.
Any insights or experiences are appreciated. I will also plan to share some updates as we move forward in this journey because right now I don't see a way out of living with the consequences of my wife's overspending.
No answers for you
Submitted by vabeachgal on
My details aren't identical (for example, I don't manage all of our finances because my husband won't work jointly with me, but he does more than his share of mischief/mismanagement). My H also came into marriage with twice the debt he disclosed, only after I asked. I also believe that most of the bad habits were firmly entrenched before I was in the picture. It was a lot of debt, something around $30,000 in general consumer debt.
"I respect my spouse's inherent right to make his or her own decisions and live by the consequences, whether I like what what he or she is doing." This statement makes perfect sense about respecting your partner's individuality IF we are talking about things that are not actually harmful to the other partner such as financial issues/lies/adultery/drug and alcohol dependency, physical abuse, etc. - the BIG things. I couldn't care less if my H leaves clothes on the floor and things like that. I do care that he jeopardizes the security of the entire family.
I have no answers for you. I will watch this thread in the hopes that you or someone else can share insight. The same issues made me force counseling, same as in your case. Threat of divorce was not enough to affect lasting change or start the process of working on the issues.
In the absence of professional help (sessions didn't last long before he stopped going) I believe it is a perfect storm of many factors. This is a completely non professional opinion.
Now/not now mindset. Why worry about it now? It's not important NOW.
Inability to see the big picture. (Inability to plan and see consequences). I think my H sees his expenditures as individual things suspended in space, not as a related whole. He sees each expense as not extravagant without understanding that the total monthly frivolous expenditures are WAY out of control. Sometimes I believe that he doesn't think straight. I guess what I mean by that is he doesn't seem to think is a linear and hierarchical fashion and it makes the way he manages money super chaotic. One time we were talking about it and he said the overspending was because he bought dinners on Friday nights so we didn't have to cook. Friday dinner is whatever fast food thing we can pick up for $5. I can laugh now but it wasn't funny then that he was blaming his overpspending on the $20 a month he spent on me. I can also tell you that he didn't understand the ridiculousness of his argument.
Lack of training. Parental guidance was horrible in this regard. None of his siblings are good with money either.
Impulsive. Wants it NOW and becomes hyperfocused on things whatever the latest thing is, he wants it all now. (right now it's remote control vehicles. Who knew they were so darn expensive????? but he's ordering parts on Amazon every day now. I am grateful it's not an actual vehicle because we have, sadly, been down that road of vehicle add ons and pretties. Uggh. (That was a tough one for me because it is a value thing for me. I don't value cars beyond transportation and see them as a depreciating asset and not a status symbol)
Pyschological trauma. My H lost his dad at 8 and his mom at 18. His stepfather said he would always have a place to stay but that he wouldn't support him financially. This did not cause my H to take control of his finances, I think, on some level, paying attention to money and self support meant also confronting his mom's death. ( I may be totally off base here, IDK)
Avoidance. Financial management is tedious and stressful. ADHD H does not like tedious and boring work. It makes him anxious. His decisions lead to shame so he prefers to not face it. The shame leads to really bad negative feelings and most of his negative behavior is all about avoiding having to face negative emotions.
Non ADHD feel uncomfortable feeling uncomfortable and seek to change the circumstances that lead to the discomfort. Not so my ADHD husband. He prefers to ignore and avoid.
Empathy/oppositional behavior. My H cannot or will not see how his actions affect other people so there is no backstop for the negative spending and mismanagement. Whereas I might think one of my spending decisions would create a bad situation for us, my H cannot pull up memories and experience and balance them against current circumstances and make an informed decision so the pattern keeps repeating itself ... for over 15 years.
Immaturity and unreasonable optimis. He actually told me that he thought money would always be there when he needed to to bail out of a bad situation. He has unrealistic, magical thinking. Maybe this is the Barkley 30% rule applied. I'm not sure. He'll say it's not that bad or it'll all work out. Well, it has been that bad and no, it won't all magically work out unless some thought and effort are applied.
I do know that the only joint thing we have is our mortgage and eagle eye that every month to make sure it gets paid. All remaining debt is in his name and it is truly HIS debt - none of it was for my benefit or household expenses. It's only this last time when he asked to refi the house to pay off the debt and I said hell to the no that he's finally faced SOME of the issues.
I don't see a way out of it and we are moving through the separation and divorce process. I have no faith that the repetitive behavior will ever stop. Financial management requires some good executive functioning. Poke around this forum because many people have posted specific, tangible suggestions such as providing an allowance only and things of that nature.
Thank you for your comments...
Submitted by @abandonetheoldway on
I appreciate your detailed response. Helpful simply to know that others are struggling with the same dynamic and I am sorry where this is leading for you. I alone dug my wife out of the bottom 10% of credit ratings to a point where her credit is in the top 10% because everything is in my name. From a credit perspective we're fine, but the money continues to roll out the door at a rate faster than it comes in. We have attempted every form of financial program from envelopes spending only cash to daily check-ins, but nothing has worked for us. This is likely because everything makes sense to me and my wife struggles with even the basic understanding of debits and credits.
She too struggled without proper modeling and her siblings are also not able to manage their finances. I think they all share a little of what I like to call "entitlement disorder." They all seem to think they are entitled to live the lives they want regardless if they can afford it or not.
Your description of what you've struggled with helps more than you likely appreciate. I have taken on all of this responsibility over the years and have assigned it to me as my failure, but when I read your post it's easy for me to separate you from the actions of your husband so I should learn to separate responsibility for my wife's actions from me. I will also continue to search the website for how others have managed, but having read so much recently I am growing tired from the search. Having a format like this where others, like you, are willing to reach out with your perspective is really helpful. Thank you!
Repeating Itself, Over and Over......VA
Submitted by kellyj on
I just wanted to share something with you that came out of our meeting with my T today ( as it was )....I came in there today with an agenda and that was to "speak' unfettered by the same conflicts and the same thing that happens with my wife and I that has built up a lot of anger and hurt in me? Today.....it happened again....but this time I felt no need to try and "let things go" and just sweep it under the rug once again. I basically came in today and actually "showed my T" exactly what I do and how I get angry in these moments which is not what I normally do. Normally, I try and control my emotions and keep them somewhat under wraps....but today I wanted some answers and I realized that I needed to resolve my feelings about things that were not going to be resolved otherwise? You listed alot of things here that are all the symptoms of this.....and without making this long and drawn out....what it came down to was just one word. Avoidant...or simply to avoid. As you said it here....."he prefers to ignore and avoid".
And as he also said to us....competing sensitivities. I asked him straight up....."Okay then, this is not my norm and how you've seen me.....and you know me long enough to have a good feel for me? Have you ever seen me quite like this and how I'm behaving? If the spark or match that ignites this is her "Avoidance"...then in turn...what is it that is happening to me and how am I showing it?"
And he said....."Disorganized" as you are behaving since you appear way more upset than this particular instance would call for? ( what happened today to upset me ) And as he said that I asked....." well, that;s not my normal attachment as you've told me....does it change or does it migrate, from one person to another " Thinking as he has said this about my wife being "disorganized" as well? And now, I'm acting like a "Disorganized" attachment person....which was quickly brought down, but I just wanted him to see it? I wanted him to see how I react in these moments of frustration and on the receiving end of the Avoidant counter part? I have to say, I have never felt so angry before...in the break up process of a relationship? Normally, I would have felt more hurt and despondent and depressed? ( as I always have in the past ) But then again...I have never been exposed to someone like my wife in such a relentless way that never stops. And just keeps happening again and again with no releif in sight? Never in my life, except when I was a child....and that came with some familiar components in a very similar way? What I came into my T's office with was a vent about something that I have already brought up but I will include it again? Being exposed to none stop "contempt"...that is "hatred" from the person you Love....will do that to you I think? As a child...that exposure was limited and kept at a distance for the most part? But with my wife....her non stop "hitting" and repeated "hitting" in an agressive manner....is the very "contempt" I am talking about. I am not even implying that your H is like this at all? It doesn't sound like that is your issue but what is the same what is similar...is the "avoidance" and it never changing? What ever "IT" is I think...whether it's money or what ever.....the symptom is just what comes out.....in my wifes case it was "contempt" I thought it might be good to know at least one validating message from my T....that at least my issue and my sensitivity to my wife came from her avoidance and her contempt...at the end of our relationship? And for what it's worth...the "effect" of the prolonged exposure and how that translated to me? I am very aware of this and in fact....was what I really wanted to know? Not about my wife....but the effect it had on me? She appears almost unfazed by any of this.....almost like...."eh....what ever.....no skin off my nose." I think, that's just the same thing....happening once more? It isn't "no skin off my nose"...for what it's worth.
J
Tomato Tomahtoe
Submitted by vabeachgal on
J:
I'm very sorry you are going through this and experiencing these emotions.
Avoidant. I've always called it stonewalling. Professionally speaking I'm not sure if they are the same or similar or completely dissimilar. However, I do understand the intense feelings this behavior instills. Being hit over the head with the same behavior repeatedly is crazy making and soul deadening. You're right. My H is completely unfazed by what's going on. On the other side, there's no real communication or resolution, just more banging my head against a wall.
Sometimes my responses are out of proportion to the event. I'm not proud of it. I usually contain myself more or less okay. Interestingly, I think my H shares things with an old friend. This friend reinforces his thoughts. My H will say I did or said x and she did or said Y. Friend says "wow, that's a crazy bi-atch." But... here's the thing... there is no mention of the abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvw that came before x and y and builds up the emotions. Absolutely, the long term exposure has had an effect on me. I'm not even sure I'm "relationship-able" anymore.
Sure, money is an issue, but not working with me to come to terms with it is avoidance, stonewalling, contempt and dismissal.
I appreciated Melissa's breakdown of money values. It's actually how I view money. Must/need to/obligated. Nice extras that enhance lifestyle and bring value. Stuff that would be okay to have/do but otherwise, meh, could do without.
Beating Head Against Wall VA
Submitted by kellyj on
This money thing is interesting in how that worked with me. I have had, plenty of moments where I succumbed to the normal ADHD tendencies, but there is that cause and effect thing that is there ( or not there ) and the learning from your mistakes. It's funny, that I was saying basically the same things to my wife just the other day, and trying to get her to see that "beating your head against the same wall" and just keeps doing it...does appear to be what she does. The definition of insanity again which is why it's "crazy making" for you ( and for me too as I found ADHD and all ) This is that "thing".....the "I don't get it".........but I think, if you "got it' at some point...then this makes no sense to you? Whether you "get it" or don't get it" is not a for sure thing with ADHD obviously? It took me longer to "get it" ( LOL ) but that's all I know? My wife is very determined ...to the point, at the exclusion of all else which is where she becomes completely indifferent to me or anyone else? ( the no empathy part ) which I am no prepared to say, is the most hurtful aspect of being in a relationship with someone who is that "unaware" of what they are doing?
We had another moment in our T's office with me being really inconsolable yesterday and the state I was in. To the point, I walked out of our T;s office ( first time ever in 17 years ) because I had to compose myself and take a time out before I could continue? And of course, my T put me on the spot and asked me why? Why are you doing this to yourself, what are you trying to accomplish and do here? And I did know what I was doing and why I was angry.....I had just had enough of her inability to empathize and the hurt and the anger that had built up because of it. And he said "Sounds like Tit for Tat to me..." and I immediately said "YES!! It is what I'm doing. I'm handing it back go her and shoving it in her face. I was the one who referred it to "the pie in the face" in that moment which I said ( in front of my wife )..."I;m sick and tired of having her do that to me, and I'm angry because of it. And angry because she does it routinely...and I've just sat there and taken it." That "creamed pie" called...."no empathy" which hurts, every time it gets thrown back in your face. In the same way.....as she beats her head against the wall in that very determined way....she throws the "no empathy" pie in your face....in exactly the same "determined way". I even put the sign of the cross up in front of her ( like Vampire warding off sign ) and she just sat there and looked at me, and had very little to say? And I took a bottle that was sitting there and grabbed it and started hitting it agains my are...and said " if I wer to do this repeatedly on your arm...for two weeks straight, it would ge mighty sore at that point and your arm would be black and blue" And he said ( LOL )...."No you wouldn't....I wouldn't put up with it...long before that happened". Again, while my wife was sitting there litstening to this rant, and not saying or repsonding to anything. As if it had no effect on her at all? I even said "Oh...and this demenour and this you are seeing right now? That's NOT what she's like at home....I can tell you that much. This is just an "act" she puts on, for your sake don't you know." I knew he knew....but this was my time to vent and I didn't care anymore since I was never allowed to simply say it.....even ONCE. If anything...I needed to say it "to her"...instead of here or to anyone else? Not because I hadn't tried....but because she would have no part of it. She absolutely......will not allow it and will cut you off come at you agreesively and do anything to keep you from saying what I said. I just needed to do it one time....for my own peace of mind just so it was said even if nothing was going to change from it. That may not be a good excuse or even a justification for doing it.....and my T allowed it up to a point but then was speaking to me, as if she was not even in the room at the time. Basically, he went from what he had been doing...and opened up with me while she was in the room which to me.....pretty much told me, that he didn't think it mattered to whether it would change her or not. Her best interest or "therapy" as he saw it ( I think ) was pretty much over since she's made it clear...."she doesn't want to"....and I was making it clear to him......"I don't want "THIS" anymore? "This"....has got to go....and if "This" comes with her....they "THEY" have got to go...since I had reached the end of my rope.
But later.....after we got home, and I cooled down some from that ( feeling like I got that off my chest and that done and no more need to say anymore )....I came to her and asked her ( out of curiosity ) what they talked about when I took my 5 minute or so break. And she said "he said you are feeling abandoned".....which straight to the point....."I am and or was?" Technically speaking....she is "abandoning me" which is absolutely true. Which is so ironic...in that, her fear of being abandoned, causes her to act this way.....and in fact.....it took her actually "abandoning me" ( for real...not perceived ) for me to become that myself. Somewhat....inconsolable and nothing anyone said in the moment was going to make me change course or stop. I was on a roll and that even my T allowed long enough to just say what I wanted to say? At the very minimum....it did have cathartic value which I didn't get a chance to say ...but that was the value in doing it now that I think about it. And now that I think about it....I don;t need to do it again? That is now resolved and I've had my say?
All of what I just said....is the pattern of "avoidant attachment" ( or disorganized in addition if I remember? ) Fear of perceived "abandonment', perceived threats and hostility and anger and lashing out or ( chastizing ) in an effort to "not be abandoned" or the "fear of being abandoned" and then "leaving before it happens" as the pattern in a nut shell? And here I was....being abandoned, becoming inconsolable, lashing out, venting in anger and chastising her? The interesting difference here which you can't not help but notice.....with me, it was "really happening"....and I was "really responding to what was really happening" and having a need to "shove it back in her face"...in "real time" ....related directly, and not just a perceived threat.?
And.....it's done....I had my say and got my two bits in and it's now resolved? That's all I needed to do.....I don't need to do it again? No beating my head against the same wall because that wall is now gone? In part.....I think my T was also using that for her benefit to hear. In other words....she was witnessing "someone" doing what she does.....for the very same reason she does it....but only from the "fear of it"....since "IT" was not happening to her? In a break up situation....you got the dumper and the dumpee...and of course...the one in control who holds the cards is the dumper in that case. They choose fist....before anyone esle can "choose" for them in that case? And it respect to what I just said.....the pervasive pattern is the same. "ME FIRST......YOU SECOND". If there is any situation or any time when she was NOT FIRST......she would let everyone know it ( as a snide comment ) or remark.....alerting eveyone that "well excuse me"....kind of way? Even over the smallest of offenses? I notice this all the time....and it';s just another example of this.....but just the other night ( since it's fresh in my mind ) I was walking across the room on my way to the garbage and she was walking across the room on the other way to the counter and I was a bit ahead of her and you might say "cut her off". If it was traffic in a car......you'd call it that but it was one of those deals where "both arrive at the same time" kind of thing? No matter what....and no matter how many times you reach that place.....if you go first and don't "bow out" of "allow her to pass first"....she will say something to you ( always ) like it's some big deal. It is almost stupid how petty it is and how unimportant that is....to the point....I don't even realize I do that and I will concede or step back and go forward based on "who got their first" As I saying this.....if she got there "second" she still wants to be first? It's those petty, small and so insignificant things....that just add into the same pattern everywhere big or small. It's non stop....it's everywhere....it's all the time...and it never takes 2nd seat to anyone....or ELSE......she will let you know it? It sadly, reminds me of my dogs....when you throw food on the floor and they scramble and fight and snarl for every last bit and who gets more and who gets there first? It's sad when you see that this is what it really is.....and I can see it in her family as they were all like that straight to the point. Like a mad dash to see who will get first in line....as if, there won't be any food left if you were at the end.....and everyone is fighting just to get fed because they were all starving? In this case.....as she told me, no one was starving and without "real food".....but they behaved in that way with everything, food or not food......"ME FIRST!!!" "SHOTGUN".....blah blah blah. It is so childish and so "BASE"......that you cannot live with this and not have those 1,0000's of little moments ....included into the "Big Ones". Only someone who has had to live with this long enough...will know what I'm talking about I think? It's not just the big ones or the "big things" which are the worst....but this "ME FIRST" dash to the front of line.....to get inside 5 seconds before everyone else? Literally....operating....as if, the doors will shut and you will be left outside, if you don't get inside before everyone else? And as long as you are always "FIRST"....then everything is Okay? As if....everyone is operating under this type of system.....when in fact.....very few people out there actually do? It is just part of the entire pattern of feeling "victimized" and with no other means to get what you want. Other than to get there first...before anyone else does? No abcdefghijklmnop............straight to Z.....Me first.....what" There was a line? LOL And then fight and argue...if anyone says anything? Like I said.....BASE or BOORISH.....which is the adult version of what kids do. Cause and effect? What's that?
J
The details of my and my ex
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
The details of my and my ex-husband's situation differ from yours but I'll share what I've observed, just in case it might be helpful.
Ex and I are both frugal for ourselves. He likes to shop, but he does so at thrift and dollar stores these days. I don't like to shop at all. I'm generous with other people (I give to charities on occasion, I help our adult daughters, I've helped a few friends when they've been in tough spots financially). My ex knows a lot about the stock market and economics and such; I know very little. He used to manage our investments and do our tax returns, while I paid the bills. But he hasn't had good, steady employment in 20 years, and once he entered unemployment land and we started to have money problems (one year our family income was $3,000), he became increasingly avoidant about things related to money and bills. He suggested a few times that we cheat on our taxes. He said he didn't need health insurance and that if he got hurt, "welfare" would pay. He said, after we'd paid off our daughter's student loans, that we shouldn't have and that she should just have skipped out on the debt. I think his issue is that he really wants to have enough money, he's stressed when he doesn't and thinks about it, and so having me pay the bills and do the taxes and so on allowed him to avoid his discomfort. One of the major reasons I decided to file for divorce is that he now works for his parents and his dad insists on paying him under the table, for the express purpose of hiding things. So I felt not only overburdened with all the money management but also legally threatened by the secrecy and cheating. It's a lot better being divorced, at least as far as money management is concerned.
Hi Abandon....There are good books on boundaries....
Submitted by c ur self on
I suggest you set up boundaries....My wife and I have separate finances, ....We do separate taxes...and other things like travel to places like church where timliness is paramount...etc....As long as you enable her (picking up the slack of her irresponsible spending) why would she choose to do any better....It's like a child getting to eat cookies before meals....They want stop on their own:)
You can do it nicely....Sounds like she is past due for some spending discipline lessons....When she only has access to what she makes, you find out what's she is made of....
Blessings
C
C may have an immediate solution for you
Submitted by Chevron on
What you bring up is a moral problem as well as a codependency / boundary issue
"I respect my spouse's inherent right to make his or her own decisions and live by the consequences, whether I like what what he or she is doing."
That in bold is a good general goal but like you say doesnt deal with a large percentage of cohabitation, which is, precisely, interface, in which one's actions and words affect other people as well as oneself. Living with a money profligate is like dealing with a tar baby: there's no way not to "become the parent" if one's partner is racking up a certain level of debt, not paying bills, or doing th financially nuts things that vabeachgirl describes. If your wife makes 25% of what you do, C's solution will address monthly needs, but someone has to handle the larger scale financial matters, such as the ones you've brought up, credit scores, and if you're in a common property state or country, debt. I'm in a state in the country where no matter who incurs it, debt racked up during marriage is common debt. And how about the large problem of having enough money put by and not drained away that the couple eventually will need to pay for increasing cost of old age? If the couple cant build and preserve, over a long period of time, it is going to directly trouble both partners, not just the partner who "doesnt deal" with his/her lack of involvement with paying bills and so on. Even C's solution ends up treating the non self disciplining spouse like a teen with the freedom to think only about herself. Edited to add: it sounds like it is the right thing for them, very functional.
Maybe I'll wear out on this over time and give up insisting on it being this way, but at our age, C's solution cannot be one thatmy husband and I use. We're in a common property state, so in multiple spending circumstances, any debt either. of us incurs is common debt. From having done some management in my past, thinking about outfits that I've run, its obvious that the whole team cant be money managers. That's too many cooks in the kitchen. Usually there's only one in a business group to track expenditures and guide the team toward expenditure goals.
Over and over again I run up against this, that my husband long before I entered the picture had to learn a lot in the school of hard knocks with no one at all to bail him out if he did things like get in trouble with the police, wreck the car, run out of money or spend what he needed to use to pay the rent. Where other people are still bailing out their teens, even going only so far as to put them on an allowance but still the kid can sleep at home at night, my ADHD husband as a teen was out there really getting schooled in financial and legal consequences and got some habits then that I and we benefit from. Even though by the time we married the man had never lived under a personal budget in his life, If he got in debt, he took on a second job and worked his tail off to get out of debt...that debt. No foresight. Yes spontaneous big spending, but the man would WORK and took moral responsibility for debts he incurred and for debts his other family members incurred. I know for a fact that it would be very unrealistic to delude myself that I could in any way teach him, at his age. I know for a fact that if he hadnt long ago learned that if there was debt, he himself had to take action to reduce it, I, and we, would be in a jam, and the future for us financially would be very daunting.
So I tend most of our financial tracking, planning, billpay and so on. One of the two has to do it. I have more skills and practices in that area than he does. But we have many large and small conversations about things like how we're paying down our collective debt and how on earth we're going to deal with our financial self sheltering through our advanced old age. He doesnt get through these discussions without irritation...it's always not now, or his attention doesnt last very long if I'm laying out a financial problem that we must solve, even if I execute.
But again, the key for us is that long, long before me, he learned that he was morally and practically responsible for paying debt, not only debt he directly incurred, but also debts that other members of his family incurred. That seems to be the key piece that my husband has that other ADHD spouses described on this board who get into money trouble seem to lack. My husband understands that he can help or harm himself or others by how he handles money.
We do, incidentally, have a modified version of separate spending tracks. We both chip in to a common financial pool, out of which shelter, food,vehicle costs and as many health costs as we can are paid. I'm the money manager for us. And tend the common pool, bill pay, etc. We both also have separate checking accounts, where we spend as we like what we didnt contribute to what we need for common living. I wanted it that way.
ButI absolutely cant do it all. We cant do it like C and his wife do, which works for them Our financial situation is when we get a surprise 4 or 5 figure expense, I tell him and we both chip more in or decide how to penny pinch. It's key that we're not selfish or furtive when we hit one of these bigger money emergencies. And again, I didnt "raise him to share" I think that's more that he worked out, on his own, in his earlier life
To me the key issues are debt and preparing for the period of life in which neither is earning monthly salary. This sounds so very impersonal and cold, but had I not seen my husband taking action, doing extra work if needed to pay for debts he incurred and needs of other people than he, I might not have married him.
I have a secondary, separate but related few questions
Submitted by Chevron on
I've been curious. Yes, oh yes, my husband and I are dealing with things directly related to ADHD and the differences between ADHD and non ADHD a lot. As I read descriptions of people's lives on this board one difference that appears to make my and our life more livable at home and I daresay my husbands life in this marriage easier and comforting for him is that my husband with ADHD was out on his own, totally relying on himself at an unusually early age, at around 16, and he lived that unsheltered life, where nobody and no institution, no disability, no accommodations, bailed him out.
I've asked this question before, when were you out on your own, totally and completely responsible for paying for your shelter, paying for wrecked cars, with no support from anyone, or if you got in trouble with the police, you either figured out your own bail and paid it or sat there in jail for the length of your sentence.
How early were you totally under the effect of your consequences for any length of time? J, who has ADHD, said he was living entirely without a safety net early on. How about your ADHD spouse, or you, if you have ADHD? When were you the sole person responsible for having food to eat only if you earned the money to pay for it? Had your spouse, or you, lived totally by yourself, depending to do it on solely your paycheck, for years, before the marriage?
It makes so much difference to my well being and to his that a long time before we met my husband figured out some self discipline and figured out that it wasnt all about him, that (in his own ways) caring actively for other people was part of life
Chevron Some Thoughts and Conclusions ( or maybe answers)
Submitted by kellyj on
Going back and revisiting Dr Barkley's video on the 30% rule has really given me a good base line to use an example here. Simply stated, that ADHD ( children.)....not adults per se meaning, he didn't say ADHD adults in respect to the 30% rule which is a good place to start. ( by taking 30% off the age of what ever age they are and coming up with their "real age" in the sense of maturity ) And I really think you have to look at "maturity" a little differently than the common usage of the word since on the other end of maturity....if you say someone is "immature" ( in common usage ) that already starts heading down the wrong road or it will be misleading. Not yet, developed "fully" ( like a piece of fruit or vegetable) that needs to grow longer before it's fully ripe is a better way to see it I think? "Immature" seems to have a more permanent defining characteristic, or implies it will "grow no more" once you pick it off the vine in keeping with that idea? Human beings, are not "fruit" and don't stop growing and maturing as part of the aging process all the way until you die. Some....more than others...and some never make it past a certain point and stay at one "state of mind".....more like a child in that more permanent way...but again, no one is not made up of many different facets of their total being...and in these different facets is where this will really tell the tale. Everything in this tread is speaking of the differences here between each and every ADHD and NON-ADHD person responding. It ceretainly appears that at the very least....people have strengths and weakness's in these areas and all of them could be said as ( weakness's) related to not being "fully developed" in those areas? Inherent ( God given strengths) I think only mean a "head start" over other people perhaps but that does not mean that other people cannot catch up to someone who has a God given "head start" or talent or strength. It was the point I was making the other day about "Gifts" come from ( GOD? or born in or with ) but real talent is taking the gift..and learning how to use it and "develop it". I think these words are not only the same....but in respect to everything being discussed here....they are the same when you apply this idea to each and every facet individually. I think it would be a rare individual, who has ALL facets of their life and their capacities...fully expanded and developed. That would be almost an unrealistic thing to expect of anyone no matter who they are? Areas of focus, areas of interest, experience and individual life circumstance will dictate the direction each person will concentrate on and fully develpe their talents. And straight up, limitations placed on genders and gender roles ( thinking about the traditional family unit ) with a stay at home mother and the man or father earning all the money. That in it, and by itself...puts women at a distinct disadvantage in some ways simply due to the structure and the expectations and where the focus lies in each role. If one is never expected to fill the shoes of a role they were not expecting to fill, did not focus on before and did not have in their minds eye or in their original thinking as a goal......they will be ill prepared and have not really even tried to developed those areas even though they are fully capable of doing so and have no other limitations imposed on them. I fully believe ( and there is so much evidence to prove this now ) that woman are perfectly capable of doing the jobs or roles of men...if and when they are required and put into a position to do so? The problem comes, from the very start...and being raised with the notion that they are going to get married, make babies.and stay at home and play that part of role in a family. I really believe...that this stereotypical mind set or "state of mind" does not allow for any variations or even to consider these other options as even something to focus on at all? But as everyone now a days realizes....there are many different kinds of families of all shapes and sizes and the "traditional one" ( that I grew up in ) in just ONE option and by no means the ONLY ONE available. By choice that is....unless you suddenly find yourself in a situation where the other options are now a requirement.
And as you said Chevron.....I was flyin without a net early on, but not completely on my own. I have to give credit where credit is due...and this is where my father comes in and where my mother was sorely ill prepared. In so many ways, my mother was still living in that idealistic thinking of a child ( those facets only ) yet, in so many other ways....she was far advanced emotionally speaking over my father who really a child in that area for sure. Yet, not in the areas of responsibility and being accountable, finances etc. You couldn't have a better role model and a strict disciplinarian on top of it. It is why , he advanced in the career he had to a corporate head since...they trusted him to make them money and run their affairs for them in a particular way, and he did that in spades and could do that in his sleep. He was more than fully developed and beyond to the point ....that the CEO of the ( very large corporation that bore him name ...Mr "Corporation" founder and so forth ) sent his two grand sons ( one actually lived with us at home...the other lived on his own later ) to work and learn directly with my dad...for that very reason. Mr Corp...could have picked anyone out of 100's of employees or upper people he had.....but even for his very own family ( his grandsons) he picked my father to train them and show them the ropes of the business which might tell you something there I think? Dr Barkley's video made me think of this as he was referring to the 30% rule and about lowering expectations. I cannot say, that it was not a mistake or simply an error in "not understanding or knowing" any better....since the stress and the heart ache and the over all effect of being "thrown in the deep end" and then saying "swim" was kind of the method my father used in his approach which for the average person ...or the average age a maturity......that would have been a lot to ask for or a lot to expect of anyone. With a gun to your head...and in a do or die situation......you'd be surprised what you can do if you really have to.....but that is really not "nurturing" that is literally "boot camp" and that is definitely NOT the best approach after all? I mean, is you are trying to test someone, to see what they are made of....then that's a pretty effective way of weeding out the wheat from te chaff? That is not such a good approach for a family however.....since, who are you weeding out and what purpose does that serve? In my case....all that did was "weed me right out of existence" in my fathers eye? As seen, as the "defective child" who will never amount to anything....as he was looking at my potential? Being scape goated and singled out for all the failures ( of his parenting ) compared to the fact the Mr Corp...sent his own blood family to get that "training".....of course, it wasn't his training that failed....it must be "me" the results or "wash out" in the group. In other words....I was a "write off"...."section 8"....."defective"....."waste of time and effort"......from the very same perspective within his perfect training program that was so effective for "all those other people". The problem also was...all those other people were much older than I was and in my fathers "need" to have that "shining example of his amazing ability" or his "trophy" that he could hold up and put in the show case for everyone to see.....I was the disappointment since that was this role....I had no idea I was suppose to fill? So insult to injury....the expectation was "more" than on average in respect to my father.....and in direct contrast to what Dr Barkley was saying.....it should be less going the other way? This was, the overall effect of abuse....of being thrown into a situation...not only above my capacity....but with expectations beyond even the average or norm for that very reason? On the positive side as there always is ( the silver lining in the cloud ) I developed "fully" in some facets...even beyond my own peers in some ways which really is a very conflicting and contrasting thing when you are talking about these different facets? And.....in terms that I think most women can understand.....the expectations of filling a role, that you ( some ) were not expecting, were not prepared for and did not train, or even put themselves into as an expectations.....might have a similar feeling or "challenge" imposed on them if they simply expected to have babies, raise a family and not work outside the home as a stay at home mom. If that was the only aspirations and all that goes with it.....I might imagine feeling similar...to how I felt back then. Without the capacity or the training or any concept of what do to and how to get there starting from scratch..and suddenly being thrown into th deep end of the pool. If that sounds at all familiar....then I for one can relate to that very well indeed.
And I think, if there is one word that comes from that, that you get if you don't drown and make it to shore alive? Resilience. On the positive side, IF you make it out alive? I think that is where when I say....I'm good in a crisis and a good person to have in your boat when the shit hits the fan......that's where it comes from. Test of fire....repeatedly, until the "test of fire" just becomes routine or common place all by itself? Pushed to the limits....and then expected or asked to do even more? Above and beyond the call of duty you might say?
And in thinking about my wife and her mother again. When your parent is a child in nearly all facets of her "state of mind"....even if she could function as an adult......you are coming from the opposite end of the spectrum now in thinking of the contrast between my fahter ( the dominant head of the house ) and my wife's mother who resented her station, the expectations of being an "adult" and remained in that "child like idealistic mind set" for her entire life? Her mother, resented all the men she was with as she saw them...who didn't "take care of her as she felt they should have? As if, an adult man needs to do for a woman who;s still a child? That child...is going to be pissed off and angry, because she has to "work" ( at all ) and have that adversarial relationship with "all those men who failed her"....."having to work 8 hours a day" instead of staying at home with the kids....and basically be angry and pissed off at the world ( with that gigantic chip on her shoulder ) as seen from a child or girl...who was raised with one idea or intention in mind. Have kids, stay at home, not work outside the house for money...and leave all the rest up to the "man". And suddenly.....things didn't work out that way since her "dreams" as a girl...did not materialize the way she "dreamed it would". The fact of the matter was however.....she actually did work...she did it all and to the point...she was perfectly capable of doing it.....nothing was preventing her and she proved it for all intensive purposes. She also.....became a bitter and hateful person, who only cared about herself and no one else?
If I think about this now, and the effect that would have on someone......if you took what her mother did...and compared say any man or many many other women.....it was no different than what those men or a lot of other woman did .....but she hated her life, and she hated every minute of it? Not to undermine her accomplishments or even underscore how much more difficult that was for her.....but as I see myself in that very similar way ( not much I can see different only in that the expectation was beyond her means at times I'm sure ) saying.........she did not hold exclusive "rights" to being tested like that? She is not by a far stretch...alone in that predicament? How she responded and what she did with it ( or about it ) and her state of mind and how she reacted to it....is the only thing different....with most of everything else...remaining the same as it is for many many people out there? She did have a choice in some aspect to this as I'm seeing it? Either you rise above the water line...or you sink down below it? You can't compare one person "demands" and say one thing or another as to how well they "should do"...thinking about my fathers expectations of me......it is not what the outside world places on you ( or other people ) I think? It's how you respond and where you find your resources from? I always have to come back to my swim coach who introduced me ( and taught us all how to do this at a very early age )...the concept of idea of "digging down deep" and coming up with more than you thought you had?
I'm not sure....if being place in a situation "only" without a net and having to live by ....or "pay the consequences only" as the only consideration here? I was only able to do that, from learning how start at a much earlier age than that? I think you could say with the one....that you learn as you go from failure only.......but on the other hand....learning by success, and success under the extreme ( at all odds against you ) can teach you more from the success...but only once you have it? If you never rise above and you only fail and only suffer negative consciences....then what motivation do you have to even try....when you know you will only fail? ( as you believe ) Pessimism or optimism.....glass half empty......glass half full? You can get a long long way on just fumes.....if you have optimism in your tank? I really think that is a defining thing or quality that is almost a requirement more than anything else. It is the difference between "sink" or "swim" when you get thrown into the deep end..and you are up shits creek without a paddle?
J
Much appreciated description of your life, J
Submitted by Chevron on
There was a sign posted on the wall of a place where I once worked that I always appreciated.
"Let every man do his own best job."
Or woman.
If they've got the skills and the fortitude, let 'em do it their way, and let 'em reap the consequences and the sense of self respect and achievement for doing it their way.
...But that workplace sign was presuming that that person doing it his way wants to be in a team and is committed to the goals of a team, and so, what the employee doing it his way, or her way, is doing, is consciously and of free will amaking a contribution to the team.
....thanks for your descriptions and thoughts about people you know learning.
..
My husband understands that
Submitted by vabeachgal on
My husband understands that he can help or harm himself or others by how he handles money.
I do agree with you. As usual, you hit on something very important and based in common sense. My husband does not see how his money problems affect other people. He was on his own at a young age but chose the avoidance pattern of dealing with money, rather than the head on way. He used to say as long as he paid the bill, it shouldn't matter to me. He actually verbalized that and truly believes it. Except, there came a point where he couldn't float everything. Repeatedly. Not to mention that this behavior doesn't promote a unified marriage with two people rowing the boat in the same direction.
I think there is value in C's way but it also will not work for us. Even with separate finances, my H is not responsible enough. There is "spillage" even when finances are separated. I work in consumer finance compliance and collections. Collectors can and will contact spouses regarding debt and in some cases can escalate action even if the debt is not joint. Property can be liened and bank accounts garnished. That affects both parties. In divorce, it is generally considered to be a marital debt, regardless of whether the account is joint or not. Quantity of debt and credit utilization affects the ability to get loans, refinance, and any number of things. In short, the tar baby spouse can absolutely negatively affect the other person, even with boundaries. Of course, I always come back to how many boundaries do I have to erect both real and emotional before it's no longer a marriage?
There is the opportunity cost. For example, my husband likes a very large pocket money budget. It's disproportionate to both his and the family income. It is disproportionate to what other family members have available for pocket money. So, the argument can be made that it doesn't matter who plans the date, but at some point it does matter that the non ADHD planner also has to pay (nothing I suggest that is free or almost free is acceptable to him) even though the irresponsible party spends relentlessly. Then it is a demonstration of value. Value self not value partnership or partner. Same for family vacations. We can do a family vacation if I plan and pay for all of us. H never "has money" to contribute, even for himself. College financial aid is determined by both salaries even though only one (mine) is actually available for college expenses. Every dollar going to debt payment is a dollar that does not enhance our enjoyment of life or prepare for the future and BOTH parties are harmed by the action of one.
Absolutely, he stays in perpetual adolescence by choosing not to deal with these things. Then, add in the shame which causes lying/covering up/hiding.... well, it's ugly. Real ugly.
It is a moral problem. It has been a co dependency problem. I could not wrap my thoughts around the extent of the problem. I couldn't conceive that someone would do these things and it threw me for a loop. I rationalized a lot, made excuses and tried to save the situation by developing a plan of action to fix it. It has been a boundary issue. Finances can be tricky and effective boundaries are tough. But here's the thing, even when I say enough, I am not and will not deal with this bullshit anymore, the behavior doesn't change and boundaries only go so far, which leads to where we are right now. The boundaries become a prison for me also and I don't want to live that way and they are marginally effective against an unrepentant financial profligate. You said it; it is financial nuts. I can't fix this and I can't live with this.
You hit on something very important. Your H has ADHD but he learned to be self sustained and responsible. He learned that he wanted to be a partner in a marriage. I believe ADHD is a real thing with significant lifetime fall out. I wish there would be more intervention and skills coaching at younger ages. My H is middle aged now. He didn't learn how to deal with ADHD when he was younger and it's hard to retrain at an older age. 12 year olds have healthier views and habits regarding finances.
I have tried so many things and I can't determine any way to solve this without totally becoming the parent because my H simply doesn't want to be a responsible adult regarding finances.It is an abdication of responsibility and a failure to respect the partner. It is a very strong statement of value as in I don't value you enough to be responsible, not cause harm to you and plan for a future with you. I want to do what I want to do right now. I could use a very crude two word phrase to describe the message being sent to the responsible spouse.
Your post is hurtful - I
Submitted by desp2017cd on
Your post is hurtful - I would think "Why try, I'm just going to keep failing?" if I were him.
My husband has spent us into
Submitted by vabeachgal on
My husband has spent us into oblivion and dissipated virtually all of our assets. The spending has been very selfish and we have nothing to show for it. We need to downsize and sell our house. It is not sustainable. He consumes 25% of our take home income on frivolous expenses. Another 25% is spent on minimum debt payments. I'm sorry you feel that the post is hurtful but we are dealing with some very hurtful and real consequences of diagnosed but untreated ADHD. He won't take his meds and will not continue with therapy. These are not ADHD lack or organization and relatively harmless quirks. I am okay with him as a "person" but his actions are dangerous.
I guess I could also say why would I keep trying to work through this when I always fail in efforts to solve for the financial transgressions?
It's not even about ADHD anymore; it's about dishonorable behavior.
Was not hurtful for me...
Submitted by @abandonetheoldway on
Although I understood the hurtful comment, I read your original post from the perspective that like me you continue to deal with the anger, frustration and hopeless a non-ADHD spouse feels around the finances. I think the symptoms around managing the finances in the context of ADHD can "color" a relationship, marriage and family as much as anything. I don't like the fact that my wife continues to struggle and spin circles in her daily life, but those things really don't bother me in comparison to my struggle with (what feels like) her unwillingness to engage and understand the devastating global impact that not managing finances has on me and the family. I've spoken with her countless times about the need to downsize our home and radically reduce our spending, but the pain or fear she perceives toward that is still not enough for her to actively manage her ADHD...outside of taking a pill. Hopefully our counselor can help guide/encourage her in that direction because nothing I have done has worked. I used to take that on as my failure, but I don't any longer. Counselors, therapists, and ADHD coaches all add more financial stress to me certainly in the short term, but I don't think there's an option if we're going to make this work. Clearly what we've done so far hasn't worked, so I am (mildly) hopeful that doing things differently will help. My wife never actually refuses treatment and in fact she's very willing to do it (verbally), but then the symptoms of ADHD take over and there is zero follow through. She will always get to those things tomorrow, but given the fact she only lives in the moment, tomorrow never actually comes.
Sorry to hear where this has taken you, your marriage and your finances. I am hoping to avoid those same issues and when the time is right I will share your comments with my wife as an example of another family and their struggle with finances and ADHD. Thank you.
Thank you. I need to calm
Submitted by vabeachgal on
Thank you. I need to calm down.
End of month, I just tallied up monthly out of pocket expenses this morning. Daughter needs more money to finance the completion of her education overseas. Had that big talk yesterday. There wasn't any reason for me to initiate a discussion about it with my H last night. My burden. His frivolous spending would cover it so it definitely affects other people in the family. I know better than to expect him to control his spending in order to help her. I hate that I had to write that. So sad. Sigh. Big breath in. Breathe out. We have suffered through the usual ADHD symptoms. Although it's been exhausting to be the primary point person at home and with the children, I love my children and have taken pleasure in providing a nice home so I have done it willingly and without much complaint. (not much gratitude from H either LOL !!) It's been exhausting but not hard because I did it from love. He brought other good things to the table so I saw it as a sometimes inconvenient balance. I wouldn't be so spun up about this if that was ALL we dealt with. I also get frustrated with my H spinning through the days but not to the point where it would lead to a divorce or anything more than a minor blow up from time to time. But this other stuff has impacted how I see him as a person. There, I said it finally. I don't view him as fair, responsible or ethical any more. I've lost trust. Maybe your wife will take notice of that comment. Over time, lack of cooperation and constant lies and chaos in this area will affect other areas all the way down to love and respect. C UR Self just posted that it is not possible to love someone properly if you are always worrying about what's going to happen next. She needs to help you solve these financial problems so that you can continue to love her properly. And yes, these are harsh and hurtful comments.
Without fundamentally fixing the problem the danger, in my case, was recurring behavior. We would have a crisis, come to an agreement about how to fix it and rearrange things. However, sticking to it and maintaining long lasting change never happened. The old habits would come out again each and every time. She must commit to lasting change and not just lip service because each time these issues raise their head, the damage is deeper.
You hit the nail w/ your head abandoned :)
Submitted by c ur self on
(My wife never actually refuses treatment and in fact she's very willing to do it (verbally), but then the symptoms of ADHD take over and there is zero follow through. She will always get to those things tomorrow, but given the fact she only lives in the moment, tomorrow never actually comes. )
No truer statement....I can chuckle w/ you here, or I can cry with you here....(I've done both because of this reality).....This reality of your statement is what so many of us battle....But this reality should be the trumpet that leads us to action....Acceptance....Boundaries.....:)
C
I'm not a woman; but I can see how hard it is....
Submitted by c ur self on
It's just harder for women; but it's not impossible....
Hi Vabeachgal :)....I'm sure it is heart breaking to want to be a loving, respectful wife and be a part of a "Good Marriage"....And be pushed into a corner with the destructive behaviors, and unwise living by the man you love and or committed to...
If you can just resolve yourself to set-up boundaries to limit the effects on yourself....(It don't matter what he thinks about it...It's not about your love and commitment to him....On the contrary, you are trying to find a peaceful way to endure with him, without being subjected to unwise living)...
Suggestion;...I don't think there is but one way to relieve yourself of the stress and disappointment you feel with his life style....Accept the reality of his life, (things that are just unacceptable for you) then identify the things you must change to help you live peacefully...(finance management, security, etc..) in this life....Then start setting up the appropriate boundaries to protect yourself.....There is no shame in that, and I think you will find out your stress level will drop why down! Mine did....It creates a positive example for him...which he will probably hate in the beginning, if he feels threatened....But like I said in the past without pain we set stagnant or move backward...Without Good Pain we don't learn and grow....
Blessings
C
My husband and your husband,
Submitted by Feathers on
My husband and your husband, VAbeachgal, sound a lot alike. My husband makes the money, I use to work at home and made good money but right now I cannot do that, nor can I work outside of the home. Maybe later...Anyway, he would MUCH rather have money to play with than to pay off bills. We recently moved and with the money from the sale of our old house, he bought toys instead of paying off debt, and now we are so far in the hole that it isn't funny. We scrounge around trying to find spare money to just buy food at the end of each pay period.
He won't let me take care of the bills, nor does he allow me to help with any decisions because about 7 years ago when he was laid off from work, I handled all the bills and I had to decide what to pay and his credit score went down. He was pissed at me and now my punishment is that I'm not allowed to know about the finances.
Anyway, I think all this has to do with the instant gratification thing and they're not able to think ahead to the "What if's". My oldest is the same way, however she spends money on her animals rather than herself. That seems selfless, but we are then taking care of her. (Yes, we could just stop, but I'm not about to let my daughter starve. She was recently in the hospital because she was so anemic that she was only running on 1/4 of her blood.)
My husband's parents are the exact same way, too. They never had money, but they would rather buy toys for themselves than clothes for their kids or safe cars!
"diagnosed and untreated"? I
Submitted by desp2017cd on
"diagnosed and untreated"? I would start here.
You have gotten some good advice....
Submitted by c ur self on
I will add a few details to the short sweet version I gave you:)..My wife has some debt, but, she doesn't over spend what she makes on any regular basis....I am not responsible for her debt in the state I live in...If she died suddenly creators would probably approach me for sure....But by law I'm not responsible...If I was in one of the 7 or 8 common property states, there would have to be more agreement....
I've resigned also to keep my world smaller (stress free) because of my vows to her and the state of mind she lives in...Also, my focus must be on Loving her like I love myself...And living with her in an understanding manner....So I've learned I just can't do that if I'm stressing about what I don't like about her....Wrong focus! LOL...Jesus must be my focus, that is were my life comes from, I may not be clear on many things in this life...But that is one thing I'm sure of....
I am out of debt, (as of last Oct. age 59, YAY!) and I manage my $ w/ my accounts ( It gives me a little more freedom to not have to constantly be checking the numbers)....One credit Union checking account is for giving, spending money, gas, groceries, eating out, entertainment...The savings linked to that is an emergency fund....The other credit union checking has no bank cards linked to it....It's only touched for giving, utility bills and household expense (except for groceries), the Savings attached to this account, is for major purchases only...
We married at age 46 and 51...So we were both adults who were set in our own mind-sets about how to manage finances, life and other things....It's a huge mistake ( I made it) to think someone can just trust you to do what is best for them, when it goes against what they have been doing..(No matter what their struggles are with what they are doing, it's all they can see) Also her mind is very competitive, (Sadly so is mine, but I've learned its not our friend in marriages) and very mistrusting (lots of hurts and disappointments in her past, can make one a little cold emotionally, and makes it more difficult to trust)...it creates problems in submission...I've leaned to recognize that also, finally!! LOL....
Abandoned, at the end of the day, a spouse who lives with a person who isn't very stable in some area's of life, must do what they have to do, to protect themselves from the fall-out....Try to not enable....And don't feel we need an excuse for doing the right things....Be able to say No without emotion...Also we can't look down on them, or less than we are, because of their struggles in some areas...(Who among us is without Sin? then let him cast the first stone).Our Love and Prays for them must stay faithful...You just can't Love your spouse properly, if you are always stressed out about their next move....Boundaries are just tough love measures that protects us, and teaches us, so we can focus on pleasing each other in the ways we are called to do....
I've wrote a post recently entitled "The fruit of Kindness"....By placing boundaries to protect the things that we differ on...Things that are fixed in our behaviors and our choices...We can protect each other from the control and manipulation attempts that just surface some times unintentionally, because we only live with in our own minds....We have no ability to see life through another's eyes, and there is no ability for them to make decisions based on what would we choose for them (that thinking is a little self righteous to begin with)....If we live wisely enough, we want have to be angry, assume, judge or make accusations....
So the bottom line for me was to own my on crap....And create forced accountability for her....Forced accountability is simply being wise enough to manage my life in a way that I'm not swayed by any other human, (in this instance that would be my wife) when it comes to the things I feel isn't profitable to the marriage as a whole....(both of us)....And doesn't bring glory to the one who saved me and sustains me....
This same model works in business as well as our personal life.....
People who has the ability (gift) of Self Control, and can discipline their lives in a sustained manner for wise living, can't allow themselves to follow a person with limited to no ability for self discipline and no gift of self control.....There is NO wisdom in that....
I pray you can work through this issue wisely, without the marriage suffering...Counselors are very good, and well the worth the money when you are at an impasse, that is destructive to the well being of the relationship...Sometimes to have a third party speak truth to us, can open blinded eyes....
Boundaries, money and love languages
Submitted by Chevron on
I agree with C, healthy boundaries are a must. I also have had my own version of something vabeachgirl described a few posts up in this thread, that as I got deeper into relationship with my ADHD partner, I discovered that I needed different, and sometimes much more vigorous boundaries than I had had with other friends, men I had dated o coworkers. Other people in my life hadnt done those things to my time, resources, energy, etc before. I was at first somewhat astonished that I needed boundaries, and to patrol them, in those life areas. It was because I had not lived in a friendship or other close relation with someone with ADHD before and had yet to learn about neurologically produced short term memory loss, executive function issues, and the overpowering of exterior observation by multiattention
Having my own very real struggles not to be flattened by the effects of ADHD behavior, it was a while before I could have enough balance and reliability in my own daily life that I could begin to consider my new husbands boudaries. He wasnt all that good at naming them, as in "right now, I need to complete this, keep my focus" etc, but they were there
Money and boundaries is very tricky, I think. Generally I agree with C and vabeachgirl that if another adult has not developed practices of paying bills, saving up for future big expenses, and subjecting oneself to spending less until debt is paid off, there's little possibility that one adult can teach or force another one to develop those voluntary habits. I'm a pretty good exhibit of that myself. I've lived alone much of my adult life, didnt budget, didnt plan, had no idea how much money I had left in my checking account, hoped there was some there... and mostly got by with this "I dont want to think about, I dont want to be hemmed in by boundaries" behavior by living a frugal lifestyle. And bouncing checks. The only way I changed my mind and habits and put boundaries on myself about money is that my needs got steeply worse...my consequences increased.
But I went through that change living by myself. It's quite something else that one's own boundaries or their lack directly affects someone else. To me, it matters that children and young people have their needs met by their parents. So I think money is more than just money, in relationship. It has more direct inluence on my husband if I spend on what I want and thereby guarantee that he's in basic need of something.
I wondered if the man who wrote the love languages book said any thing about money being used as language in a relation, and looked it up. No, he didnt. But I think it often has that function. Its just one of the things in a family that can be shared or not. I do think its use in the family affects more than oneself, just like one's words and one's use of physical space do.
Lots of good thoughts....
Submitted by c ur self on
(It has more direct influence on my husband if I spend on what I want and thereby guarantee that he's in basic need of something.)....
Chevy this comment made me smile;)....Of course, the naked truth about most human weaknesses do...:)...Tit for Tat....
Why can't the two as in Husband & Wife create accountability and discipline in spending as easy as One can??....Because we have two times the problems:)
When I was single I had to be my own judge in spending wisdom, and then live with the results...The results are the boundaries for single people.....I didn't have a smart wife as a helper....(No pun intended..Really! :)...The genius is always the on looker...It's a great view from the stands....
What I like about boundaries they aren't prejudice....They protect both people's rights equally...Boundaries do not care who is right, or who is wrong....Boundaries protect from blame...Boundaries are like sharing candy when you were kids...One for you...and one for me....one for you...and one for me...Boundaries can help us identify if we are limited in self discipline and maybe have a touch of selfishness, as we attempt to chew it.....
C
My Thoughts and Conclusions Here....Summing it Up
Submitted by kellyj on
Abandontholdway, I have my own thoughts on how to approach what you said and including all the other comments that have been made here and to begin with....I the ADHD person and I have run into the very thing you are expressing in my past with an ex-wife who I do not think had ADHD, so right from the start, "retail therapy" or "shopping addictions" if you want to see it from that point of view, are not soley related to having ADHD. Chronic over spending can be related to and caused by many things and ADHD can be, but not necessarily be.....what you are saying you are running into. My ex-wife had the problem as I stated it, which involved a lot of insecurity and related to her "self esteem". In regards to my ex-wife, her self esteem took advantage of the fact that the more she spent on her appearance and her outward looks...the more self esteem she got from doing so. The same with her other spending habits which related to "being seen" as having a life style or seen as "more" than she really was in respect to "WHAT" she spent her money on? If I only look at the "selfish" aspect of this, I will miss the reason behind it which is exactly what I said? If she were to spend less in terms of her "self"....her "self esteem" would take a hit and go "down" with her spending which became an insatiable or non achievable ( or better )....achievable, only IF she could continue on the path she was on. I am now doing something with all of these things which makes it easier to separate out what is what here? Separating the "wheat" from the "chaff"..and the ability to "differentiate"...is really key for you or anyone in order to form an opinion but better....to make any judgments of your own in this case?
If you picture and pyramid, and go to the top or point at the narrowest tip, and take that pyramid and turn it upside, now you have a "point" or "starting place"...where all other behaviors emanate from? And if you can hold that image in your head of this inverted pyramid, you can see how the boundaries get wider and wider as you move further "upward" or "forward" if you were to lay the pyramid on it's side and now you are looking down on it from a 2 dimensional as if it was on a piece of paper and every direction is now "horizontal? If you can picture that, I can talk it about it using that perspective and use the words that describe "movement" along a horizontal axis or plane? This is by the way, how I tend to see everything in my head so I'm just getting you to see things from this perspective just t start?
So now, you are looking at this pyramid on a piece of paper, and the starting point or narrowest point is one of the "tips" of the pyramid? And every direction from there, is contained within the boundaries of the two horizontal lines that form the "V" shape as you picture this? And thw widest point of the "V"....has a lot more space or "area" than the the starting point or "origin"? I'm sorry but I am so mechanical in how I see things it's really the only way I can describe this better for you?
So in this picture, the "point" of origin can be many things? The following behaviors that spread out from that that fill the space up inside the "V", represent ALL the behaviors that radiate from that point?
So now, going back to my ex-wife. The starting place or origin in her case you could put down low self esteem perhaps, but low self esteem comes from many sources and is not confined enough to put "one motivator" at the point of origin to explain the problem or dilemma as a "cause" . As I do with anything that is 'broken" or needs "fixing"....I have to find the source or the cause of the problem to make it go away for good and resolve the issue once and for all? If I treat just the symptom alone....the cause will still be there and even if I fix the problem at the symptom level.....it will happen again and the "part" that I replaced will keep failing over and over even I keep replacing that failed part each time, I have not fixed it at the source which is where this problem is really coming from? Anytime you have a series of parts that are all interrelated to one another in a chain so to speak....any link point where there is an inherent weakness or "rub" or "friction" that wears right at that on spot....needs to be fixed or taken care or, or the chain will keep breaking at the same spot no matter how many times you replace the broken "link". Replacing broken "links" is what I'm saying is "fixing the symptom" on a metal chain? What you need to do, is find out where the "rub is" and what is causing the "links" to keep failing which is at the source of the problem in that kind of system of interrelated links that form a chain?
The idea that a chain is only as strong as it's weakest link...does not explain what I am saying? If all the links are identical to start with ( equally strong and viable ) and every time a new one breaks in the same spot over and over, and each new link you replace the broken one with, is as strong or even stronger than all the other links....then you have to summize, that there is another reason for every link that you keep replacing, but always in the same "spot" or "location"? It can't be "the weakest link" premise at that point now can it? It has to be something else....at the source or the "cause" of this problem? Cause and effect, demands a different reason or cause to this effect? There is NO OTHER POSSIBILITY here, unless you are not looking at the entire picture and the entire process and ALL OTHER interrelated "forces" involved? The "chain" ...or even just the "link" itself in isolation, does not tell you anything? When you put the chain into use, and apply that chain in relationship to the purpose or the thing you are using it for, to either drive something else, hold something in place or secure something like a door or a gate as some kind of security devise? If it's a drive chain on a car of a machine, then that chain is in constant movement and is wearing against other moving parts in a complete system just like a car engine and the chain is just one part of the the entire system? A static chain, with a padlock on a gate....can only "break" if someone comes along and cuts it with some bolt cutters? In that case, the chain, forms a circle around another object, and the only way to remove the chain in that case is to cut it? There is not other possibility other than to remove the entire gate post from the ground, and slide it through the chain that is padlocked around it?
Every one of these scenarios with a car engine or machine or a locked pad locked chain, are real physical things and they all have physical limitations imposed upon them. You cannot will, the padlock open anymore than you can "will" the chain to break or open on it's own? Unless you are the "Amazing Kreskin"...and I'm not even going to go there since that is not relevant.
But going back to the "pryamid" of "actions and behaviors" again. If I were to say A is the starting place.....and B is the desired result, and say that to get from A to B in the path of least resistance, that's a pretty easy thing to draw on a piece of paper along side your pyramid in order to show the path to get there in the least amount of time and effort which of course, would be a straight line connecting the two as shown: A--------------------B? If you now take your "V" and lay it on it's side, you could put "V" in place of the straight line which shows: A < B ( however, since I can't draw in on the keyboard, the "<" is much bigger and wider at the widest opening and B would fit in between the V with lots of space on either side ).
So now that I've painted this picture as it sits, I can begin to talk about this and show you better how I have learned to view things better? If you were to over-lay the "straight line" version of point A to B.....over the top of A < B ( with the wider v that swallows the B at the end ).....what you'be got then is the perfect picture of two different ways....to get from point A to B and all the possibilities contained in side the boundaries of the "V" as I just described it? Now, to add into this one more item to make this complete. Instead of a "straight line" from point A to B.....replace that with a "chain" with individual "links"...and now you have a complete picture that I can comment on directly. The shortest distance and the path of least resistance, is still the same moving straight down the chain, link by link......and you still have all the space surrounding it, which represents the boundaries of "V" or your pyramid to begin with with an open end on it? This is the working model, that I have in my head, to look at and see exactly what the problem is in any of this just as a means to illustrate it simply to understand what is going on? This is just, a way to simply...something that is very complicated by giving it a structure to see and analyze from?
So back to your dilemna with your wife and with me, using my ex-wife as I know her and know what her problem was in this? From a financial point of veiw.....she had X amount of money to spend.....but her needs extened past what she had at any given time. She was moving down the chain, link by link making money....but now, that moeny was bleeding off somewhere and that somewhere was inversely related to her self esteem and her appearance? Not just clothes and not just how she looked herself, but how others saw her and how she "appeared to them". She needed to appear, more than she was on the outside, to make up for her lack of self esteem on the inside....so this became a continuous "loop". She could never get to "point B" because her chain not only wasn't "straight", but it went in a circle? It was self, defeating, self sabotaging and self inflicted due to her "lack of self esteem" or better.....she had built her self esteem on her appearance and the way she appeared...and it was subject to not "making that appearances" or her self esteem would fail? Her entire "house of cards" was built around this one simple fact? For every dollar she made, was one ,more "dollar" of self esteem she could buy for herself? And she did that in terms of "status"..and "social approval" on how she appeared outwardly? If you've built your entire house of cards on your looks and outward appearance, you have done nothing to build you self esteem on the "inside" instead? Building it from in "inside" out....is different than building it from the "outside in". That, is a completely different concept, different "direction" and completely "different focus" but the need is still the same? The "NEED" is the same.....the method is completely different and that can be expressed in terms of that equation of A < B in a means to get there? By the time she got to B...the shear number or volume needed to fill that space....far exceeds the point of origin....but in that method and the only one that mattered to her....there was no other way to get what she needed? No matter which way to slice it....if she could not change how she approached this any other way, then that was always going to be that way, and the problem remained unresolved? If ALL HER RESOURCES....are "invested" in "maintaining her self esteem" at a level of comfort and her actually needing and wanting more........then the act of "maintaining" and trying to keep it there or better....to get more for herself, then this becomes and circle that spins and spins and goes no where.....since every time she went from A to B....she needed "more" than she started with, that if she stayed within the boundaries of the straight line to get there?
So now, if you go back to what I said and to the beginning here as I started with....."In regards to my ex-wife, her self esteem took advantage of the fact that the more she spent on her appearance and her outward looks...the more self esteem she got from doing so. That, right there is the definition of Neurotic Behavior which at the tip, of the "V" of the pyramid......is "Compulisive" behaviors more so than "impulsive" behavior? At the core of ADHD as I know it for myself, is my "impulsiveness" to "act spontaneously" in the "moment" in kind of a random or erratic way at times? There is no "pattern" per se, to "impulsiveness" as said...and it's just very unpredictable, inconsistent and erratic? Many things can come into play here with "impulsive behaviors" but in respect to ADHD as I understand it for myself....it is or starts as a "biological or physical" malfunction ( born into ) to start.....and not the "other way around"? Meaning, "impulsive behavior" can ( as I understand it ) come from the other direction which is just a symptom of another problem.....can you see the "mechanics" here? If "impulsive behavior" as a "chronic pattern".....is the problem and it's a very consistent predictable thing, then that is more "Neurotic in Nature" but it's not from "Natural Causes"? Then the mechanics of it....is "self motivating", "self promoting" and to a degree...somewhat a choice or decision? If it's not a 'biological malfunction"....then it has to be something else? When you have a "choice" and you decide of "choose" and there are other options to choose from available, and you choose anyone the wrong one or one that hurts yourself or hurts others in service of what you "need"......replace "Need" with "want" since "need" is not what this is all about? No one "needs" to appear or to look "good" or to be "attractive" unless you need to "attract" things to you, and make others attracted to you for what ever reason? As I see this, there is a difference between "attraction" and simply living in a way that does not respell people or put them off in some way? When you are "repulsive" in some way, or make people move away from you....that is a problem and a big one for people with ADHD because of this 'inborn dysfuntion" at times with "impulsivity" which will lead to problems. But the fact is, from that perspective, that person is simply trying to "break even" and not replell people or make them move away from them? In respect to fining a solution or a fix to that problem, one could conclude that finding the happy medium so people are not "repelled away" would resolve that problem and fix it permanently? If there is no other need or "thing" in play here.....being "attractive" and "attracting people to you" would serve no real function other wise? If it's some kind of popularity contest....then in an immature adolescent kind of way, then like a bunch of Jr High or High School kids.....being "poplular" is such a big deal to them? That is all about self esteem, and trying to get it from others by doing it that way, instead of providing something a lot more valuable and meaningful to someone else as a means to attract them to you, but in respect to that.....that is the "consequence" of your action which does this.....it is not the starting place or "goal". It A.....in this case.....is to be attractive, so people will like you, to bolster your own lack of or failing self esteem, then the gaol is is al messed up, and the consequences that follow as the B will show itself as A < B = some really fucked up results? That is the consequence or "sum" of that kind of thinking and using that as your motivation or means to do ANYTHING? If it is always, coming back to you, with strings attached, conditions involved and in some way to serve you always even if you are sering someone else or their goals.....if you have to get something out of the deal for yourself, as the only goal you have...then it will always from a circle that loops back to you in some way, and this can only come across as "selfish", "self serving" and "self promoting" in some way? It will always form a "loop"...and it will always be self sabotaging....always? Even if, you get your own personal needs met....it is always a one way street and a loop around the block back to you? And for anyone riding inside your car with you...they will be taken for a ride around and around the block with you and they can't get to where they are going, as long as you keep doing cirlces with this person who keeps going round and round and never getting from A to B? What becomes non-negotiable and fixed, is the need to be attractive? Or to be "liked". Or to feel special in some way because they don't "feel special"? If there is a hole, inside them, that needs to be filled......you can't fill that for them from the outside in....since that will be just an empty hole you are shoving "what ever" ....money, time, attention.....etc....and no amount will ever be good enough, to fill that kind of hole? And crazier still, they will many times...accuse you or doing the very same thing? Why? Because it's how they see things, and if they see you doing something that looks the same even if it's different, they will or can only see what they know themselves about themselves and will accuse you of doing the very same thing even if you're not? If someone has "avoidant" behavior.....they are simply trying to avoid something and in turn.....seeking or trying to get something else.....it's all about them and what they want, not about you? It's not they are doing it with the intention to harm you, but the fact that it harms you anyway....is of no consequence to them? Which really means when it gets down to it......"YOU" are of little or no consequence to them, as long as you do what they "need" or "allowed to" if you serve that function for them? As soon as you "stop"....fulfilling that need that you have provided for them, then you are on the outs....and are of no value to them anymore? If you stop, ":providing" for someone who is not providing for themselves....then this is a problem as you can simply understand it from that perspective? So if for what ever reason, they do not have something or need something themselves and you role or job is to give it to them or provide it for them, then you can easily see where the problem lies, if you this is not your job or your duty to provide them with it what ever "IT" is. There are legitimate places where this is a reasonable expectation...and then there are "illigimate" places or situations where that simply does not apply? Compulsive, addictive and self sabotaging chronic behavior....is not "legitimate" no matter how hard that person tries to sell you on the fact that it is? That is a "choice" and a "decision" that is made.....even if say ( it's a drug addiction and it becomes a physical one )....how it got there, was "illigimate" and was made by "illegitimate" concerns and self promoting and self serving "vices" that went out of control. No one needs to become an alcoholic of a Heroin addict. No one needs to do this to live and survive. No one can argue that "they needed to be a drug addict" and they had to take drugs and they had no other options or choices no matter how bad it got for them......NO ONE needs it? That is a "want" and a "need" only, to feel better than they are feeling? They could live just fine, feeling that way for the rest of their life, if they were not so busy searching for pleasure for themselves. and tryng so hard to avoid pain and discomfort? That is a one way street to somw fucked up consequences...and that is almost a certaintity with that kind of victim mentaility which is really what that is? Once they are addicted and once it becomes a physical addiction....then there is no arguing after that fact, of how they got there? How they got there is the problem.....the addiction is secondary, but that is all they can see?
And it turn, if the goal is to perform an action with the goal being the desired results not to build your "self up: on the outside, so people will like you or find you attractive.....then if the goal, is in line and in service of the results you want....then the equation is going to look more like A----------B = ( desired results ) which means...someone in that framework, will be productive and will show a + or positive...at the end of any given time period. They will produce, positive results, in any given time frame. The time frame may vary from one person to the next, but on their own without any other interference or intervention....they will show a + or positive....at the end of that given time?
And in turn, the person who operateds in the A < B = ( negative results ) and will end up with less, than the resources they contributed as shown in that equation. And again to make sure here, A and B are not two people....this is one person and the path or method and motivations and the sum result of what they contribute into any other relationship they are in with anyone? When the sum told.....is - negative.....then that is pretty easy to see what happens when you add you or anyone else and do the math? If there sum told is in effect....always negative....;then you with them and do the math means, any postive results you gain....will be yours....plus the extra you have to contribute on top of what would be fair to make up for the negative contributions and then plus any porfits they would make which now compounds the negative interest? It's not just the negative they aren't accounting for....it's the compound interests in "loss" or "potential profit" that you have to make up for to get ahead? And since you are doing your full share, and then, if effect, their share plus....the compound loss of profit and interest.....you not only have to do 100% of their negative....plus any addition % above and beyond your entire share on top of it just to get ahead?
What you said here is most telling of all in relationship to what I just said 2.) I knew my wife came to the marriage with some debts (ultimately created by her ex-husband...at least he got the blame), but did not know the extent of the debt until after we got married. If I didn't take over, I feared that we would never get out from under it. As it was, the extent of the debt took more than 10 years to pay off.
I will use my old stand bye here to paint this picture better on your behalf. Who's this "we", you got a turd in your pocket? For you here not your wife. She had a spending problem. her debt was her debt because of it. It was not her ex husbands I can almost guarentee it based on everything I just said. That was an complete excuse or reationalization. It was her debt, is became your debt...and she didn't care? What ever it is that she thinks she "needs" to spend money on, is a bottomless pit and cannot be filled with money? She has a need all right, but it';s inside her, and only she can fix that need, you definitely can't. She is going in circles and spending a disproportionate amount of money in service of "herself" in some way? Her "net" contribution....is "0"...even if she pays into it.....the sum of the profit and loss on the balance sheet shows a - negative as the bottom line. You pay your share in,. and you pay for the negative balance, and you also pay for the lost profits and any interest you'd enjoy...on top of her share, and her her potential profit that you might share wit her but that point of the matter is.....she shares nothing she gets with you. You pay.....she earns and she gets all of it? She gets ALL she earns and uses that for herself. She gets...all that you earn, and what you have to pay in to make up the difference. And she gets, the all the lost profit that she lost, because you make up for that too....and all the compound interests you have to give up yourself.....to show any profits what so ever?
The bottom line here......she pays nothing into the relationship between you two. She keeps, all of hers.....she takes everything she needs in the overage that you pay for ...and she takes all your potential profits and any earned interest away from you. She gets, all of that....and you get nothing but what ever is left over from what you earn. She has earned nothing of yours, she deserves nothing that she hasn't earned, with means she is stealing from you and she doesn't care....since she blames that on other people? If you really want to make this a moral judgment, then this is exactly what she is doing "to you". She is "stealing" in more ways than one, and finances is the just one "V".....but the "negative sum" in that kind of "0" sum way of seeing things is actually relevant to finances only.
But this working model, still works the same way for other things as well? Strictly for ADHD....the tip or the origin is impulsive as just one aspect. Impulsive int the A not the B.....so there is no moral judgment involved. That is just a biological anomaly which means caring or not is not really relavnt. A person wth ADHD who cares and it matters.....won;t steal from you and think it;s Okay? A person with ADHD where it matters....they're straight line might zig zag back and forth intead of going in a straight line....but they will not be going in a circle, where everything needs to come back to them all the time? A person with ADHD will look more like this as a pattern A /\/\/\/\/\ B = ( a positive outcome or positive results ) that's what ADHD is like all by itself? It take more time to go /\/\/\/\/\/\/\ -> but they are moving forward and not going in circles always back to themselves as a pattern. Non-ADHD people tend to move more often than not as A--------------B = ( positive outcome and results ) which is a little shorter in time to get there, but the results are one in the same? It does take a little longer, but that is the only difference as far as I can see it? When I see A < ( 0 ) = - negative outcome and never getting to B? ( 0 is a circle or path here...not a Zero but then net sum is the same? Interesting concept to compare here though....a circle forms a Zero.....in a visual and a value way both at the same time ) That is a catastrophic failure and malfunction....which is not inherent to ADHD? It can be that for some, but that would be a side issue and one not from nature or born that way? That is a learned repsonse that come from "nurture" or lack of it along the way? I had to make up for a lot of "nurture issues" which simply means I had to learn it myself? I had to learn what I could not account for or for my own defceits...to come out (positive + ) as the end results in anything? That takes more work and effort, but you just accept that as what you have to work with, and that's all you got and nothing else? For what it's worth just as I look back over time.....I placed my value on what I thought about myself, and how I judged myself more than anything else? I really didn't care that other's judged me, what I cared about was disappointing myself and my goals in being productive. My goal has always been to produce or to be productive in a postive way going back to my childhood. At the tip of my personal pyramid....the tip was labeled "productivity and accomplishments" and that was my path from A to B. The net sum was always postive....even if it took me longer to get there? My goal was not to"get people to like me" or to "be attractive'. That was not my goal......whether people liked me or not....was kind of irrelevant on that path from A to B? But at least, I had something positive to contribute so in that much.....people didn't have to much not to like at the end of the day as the consequence which is exactly what I just said in summing this up and doing all the math here.
And just to point this out so not to offend you or anyone else.....this is an objective anaylsis of what I know is true. Not just for me, but in terms of having ADHD. There is no judgment or moral judgment I can make in this case? This is simply a means to differentiate things and seperate them out to help simplify something that is very complicated? It really is a lot less complicated that it appears, once you understand it and can do this for yourself? I'm very visual and mechanical in this way, so using these visual aids, helps me do this which makes things easier to see sometimes? I hope that didn't complicate this and make it worse? I never know who is going to be able to follow or see things visually like I do, and it this didn't work to help you see thing better it was my best attempt at least?
J
Money issues
Submitted by MelissaOrlov on
Vabeachgal posted a thoughtful response to why this happens for many with ADHD on 6/29 that I know you have read...she has clearly been giving a lot of thought to the issue.
It sounds as if you are dealing with 'alternative facts' in this case - you don't define spending the same way your wife does, and you don't define 'a lot' the same, either. If you haven't already tried this, I'm wondering if a one-time deep dive into figuring out a vocabulary that gets you both on the same page (along with the corresponding spending numbers in each category) might help.
Your wife thinks of spending as 'fun' stuff - probably because it stimulates her under-stimulated reward synapses. Because of the stimulation it gives her, it's an important part of her life. It makes her feel good both psychologically and physically. For her, it's the FIRST thing on thinks about when she thinks of spending - the thing that gives her the most satisfaction and so she clings to it because she doesn't want to give it up. You, on the other hand, think of spending as what you do to make your lives secure. You get validation from the security you create. So the portion of your budget that she cherishes most is the part you tend to think of as as frivolous or the last thing on which money should get spent. So the 'value' you each place on this part of your budget is diametrically opposed, and is part of what is leading to your frustration. Fine. How to bridge this gap when your vision of the essence and importance of spending is so different?
Have you ever done a spending deep dive without judgment about any part of the spending? If not, it could make sense to do an analysis/budget (perhaps for a quarter???) that is free of 'best'/'worse' and just looks at 'must' in a new way? What I'm about to propose may make you uncomfortable...but here goes...
Split the spending analysis into these categories - create the categories and put the things you spend money on into them BEFORE applying any numbers:
What trying to categorize your expenses this way does (I hope) is shake up your preconceived notions of what is a 'must' - and expose you both to how much of this really, truly is opinion and life choices vs. 'must haves.' (i.e. you will start to see your 'musts' as preferences and she will start to see her 'musts' as preferences...and at that point you have more room in which to assess how to pick and choose amongst preferences. Once the 'choices pool' is larger than just what she spends on, you can circle back, put some numbers to different items, and see where a system might be created. What do I mean by system? Maybe it's "we each get to allocate 20% of our household income any way we want to after the 'must haves' are taken care of" Or something different yet.
You are both set in your opinions. Perhaps this will shake that up and allow you both to look differently at things in the hopes that neither of you will dominate the discussion.
Thank you...
Submitted by @abandonetheoldway on
Thank you for your response. I have made literally dozens of attempts over the years to do what you've outlined (or a version of it), but what I've done to outline a budget, discuss finances, or find a common language around money clearly hasn't worked. I am very happy to have someone else's words convey ideas that I have failed to communicate for many, many years...it's simple, straight forward and easy to understand. I will plan to share your post with my wife in the coming days.
Thanks For This Melissa
Submitted by kellyj on
This is a very difficult time for me and I am experiencing a lot of emotions and thoughts about all of these things. We went to see our T today, and he brought some things to light that has made me stop, and rethink a lot of the things I've said and expressed and being able to compare them to what you said. I want to go back and respond to VA specifically as you brought up her post and I re-read that again as well. I also went back and re-visited what Dr Barkley said and the 30% rule that he mentioned. I know ( and even had a strong feeling ) that I was behind growing up and this just confirmed that to me which is very true. I wondered, what it was that got me through that since he was right and I was behind but as I have to the best of my ability...caught up as best I could. In many ways I have done that successfully and some ways I am still lacking in. When it comes to times of extreme stress and loss especially ( at times like this for myself ) I am much more vulnerable to regress and have old things emerge that were and are not there on a regular basis. Loss of your entire relationship, is one of those times and this is a very telling thing for me in order to watch myself and take note of how I see and perceive things. Getting "locked" and then having those dominating thoughts or things that come through n our discussions.....was also brought up in our T's office today. I know what it is that does this, and it's simply dealing with the pain of being rejected over and over....then finally being rejected one last time? As he said it to me just today.." okay, you got a pie the face 100 times already.....what's one more time after 100 to make it 101 after all? One more time, is not any worse than the 1rst one, the 50th one or even the 90th one. It's the last time you will have to go through this "pie in the face"...what's one more "pie" after 100 of them already. One more "pie in the face".....is still just "one pie in the face" after all?
Money issues, are more clearly defined and can be written down and talleid and are easy to document. Emotional "pies in the face" and the emotional attachments to spending and money as you brought up...are a lot more difficult to define and more difficult to see? For sure.......thank you again....for shaking it up for me and hopefully it will do the same for others? Just my two bits to add, right at this time which is when it's easier to get "locked in" as I have found?
J