Sad to say, I had a very bad day yesterday physically and emotionally, and was overwhelmed with what was happening between my husband and I. I tried to have a conversation with him, and he again said something very ADHD, which was angry in nature, (which he denies) and says "Don't take it personally". The conversation went like this: I told him something I felt was important that I learned about, which was a political subject, and he states "I'd have to SEE that to believe it". (which he has said hundreds of times). To me, it sounds and feels dismissive of my opinions and observations, and that even an innocent statement can't be said without him "needing proof" that what I said was statistically correct and I wasn't saying something frivolous.
He said he doesn't want to have to repeat what I say and then it turn out to be "wrong". "So, that I don't look like a fool if I tell someone else, and I'm WRONG". He's MORE concerned with looking foolish when re-telling the story to someone ELSE, rather than having an inter ACTION with his own wife. Why does EVERYTHING I say have to be repeated to someone else? makes no sense. Why does he CARE if something I said was me just making conversation, putting me down in doing it, without me PROVING IT TO HIM? Like many things, ALL I WANTED was to be HEARD and be validated that I was caring to talk to him about some things that were important to ME. I tried to tell him this, but he got angry and said............"See I CAN'T SAY ANYTHING TO YOU". . He doesn't talk about me, or TO me. He talks AT me about himself. So, I don't understand what he's worried about.
We also talked about his affair, and current "romance" with his old girlfriend, which is DEAL BREAKER with me. We went back and forth about things, and he came back later and said, "I"m sorry". We talked a little further, after we calmed down, which was better, but THIS is where it got weird. Instead of apologizing with a SINCERE apology, such as "I'm so sorry that my actions caused you pain or hurt". He said "I have to live the rest of MY LIFE KNOWING that I've caused someone else pain".........................THAT to me is a total selfish way of apologizing without REALLY apologizing. Because once again, he's making this whole thing about HIM. not ME. He didn't EMPATHIZE with my pain, but only saw that HE had to live the rest of his life feeling bad about hurting "someone else". He didn't even use my name, or say "I hurt YOU". Does anyone else see this as a total way of NOT apologizing? I could be wrong, but it did NOT feel like an apology, and he disappeared back into his office and played computer games.
I'm glad I'm getting out of this, because I know I can't continue living with this man, expecting to gain enough strength for my inner self to heal. There is SO MUCH work to do on my inner self.
I think I am confused
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
dedelight4,
We also talked about his affair, and current "romance" with his old girlfriend, which is DEAL BREAKER with me.
I am reading what you said. What do you mean 'deal breaker'?
I am thinking deal breaker would be 'the end.' ' the final thing' 'no way back' 'its done'
I think what you need from him as an apology, he does not have to give to you. That inner self will know. Is what he gave "good enough" for you? If not, as difficult as it may be, he just isn't willing to put forth the effort to figure it out. Why? I do not know. The real trick here is to get to the place where you can validate your own feelings. You can try to insist your spouse sees things differently. Or maybe it is tim you can be kind to yourself, and learn to walk away from behavior that is unkind? I dunno. . . . . . . . . . . .just my random thoughts. .
Liz
Sorry Liz, didn't say enough
Submitted by dedelight4 on
You're right Liz. Yes, it IS the end. I am at the end and getting a divorce, it's just with my severe pain every day, I can't move out quickly, and or do much of anything quickly. I'd really LIKE to get out of here and NOW, but it's impossible. So, I have to deal with "HIM" on a daily basis still. I also still want to KNOW after 35 years together WHY he has done much of what he has done, which I don't think I'm going to get. or WHY did he have an affair and not STAY with her instead of wanting to stay married to me. And even NOW...................why have another woman he says he "loves" (other than the affair girl) and wants to be with her, but STILL says he wants to work it out with me. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.................................I AM GOING NUTS HERE. and will NEVER take him back now.
What seriously frustrates me is this: I was never a woman who yelled and screamed and cursed at him. I never called him names or made FUN of him, or told him he was stupid in any way. I wanted to understand, and I was patient beyond PATIENT. Until, there wasn't any patience left any more for me either. I am a kind person, a good person, a person who wanted better things for both of us. I worked for that, I PRAYED for that, and tried so hard. But, NOTHING in any way, made any difference. Even after learning about the ADHD, which I took much more time to learn about than he ever did, which didn't help either. I didn't become the "nagging wife", like what happens in many others lives, I treated him like he was a grown up instead of a child. But, even THAT didn't do anything. It's like dealing with someone who has NO FEELINGS. NO, that isn't the right thing either.
He can't empathize, I guess is the right word. Where you put yourself in someone else's shoes and feel their feelings WITH them, sharing their joy, pain, or whatever. I stayed too long and I know that now. I'm so angry with myself, for this. Sorry for the rant, I just wanted to get it out to someone, and you guys are it for me. I didn't think I would need this anymore, but not so. I've learned so much here, and gained strength and understanding from all of your similar life events. Thank you for that everyone.
Wow Dede
Submitted by kellyj on
First....let me say that you are a very brave woman. It shows in your actions and in how you have been here on this forum. When I read your post I reached this comment your soon to be ex made here (actually...that's really only on paper at this point from everything he's said) "I have to live the rest of MY LIFE KNOWING that I've caused someone else pain"...........can you say victim? He's getting you "coming and going" as they say. If there was ever a statement that said this is all about me....that one is it.
Dede...for whatever reason things turned out the way they did....you have nothing to feel guilty about here. That statement was designed to make you feel bad and was his way of trying to pass on HIS guilt onto you. It pure projection! Don't take it in! It doesn't belong to you and don't let him pass that off on you. He decided to leave not you.....he's feeling guilty and ashamed but not accepting his own decision and somehow trying to make you responsible? As my T has driven into my head repeatedly..."a person who refuses to take responsibility is a victim." There you go.
If you want to read into this a bit further....you could see that comment as him actually saying he has no real valid reason for leaving you and saying all the things you just said about yourself and the things you have NOT done....at the same time!! Good for you....you have nothing to feel bad about or guilty here.....don't let him pass his guilt onto you!! You could also read into this as him admitting it by not admitting it that way. Seeing it from that perspective... That's what it sounded like more than any kind of apology. When you're a victim....someone is always doing something TOO you. Good case in point.....you're clean here....see it for what it is.
J
Thank you J, I needed to hear that
Submitted by dedelight4 on
J, thank you SO MUCH for writing back with what you said. I TOTALLY needed to read that, and cried the entire post. I didn't put it together until you wrote it and told me, and I believe you are correct. There are so many things he's done over the years where he's made himself a "victim" of whatever the circumstance was, even if it wasn't ABOUT him. (he would MAKE it about him) I will read a little more about the victim mentality, because I KNOW it's there.
I've been separating my time between my daughter's apartment and my house, but will soon move in totally with my daughter. I don't seem to feel at home EITHER place right now, and being 59 years old, it's a hard thing to handle. I've moved so many times, and I want to be able to call SOMEWHERE home, and be able to STAY there.
Anyway, thank you for the encouragement. (Especially what you said about "not taking HIS guilt onto myself". ) I know I've done things that are wrong, but I didn't do ANYTHING to deserve being treated this way, and cheated on repeatedly. THAT, is just NOT OKAY in anyone's book. How cowardly is something like that?
But, I do recognize that even though I DIDN'T think I was choosing another "unavailable" person, I did. I had counseling and read everything about families of origin and early abuse, etc. but it doesn't mean you're immune from it happening again. He's been emotionally UNAVAILABLE almost our entire marriage, but was very available during our courtship. (hyperfocus, maybe) I won't take on the guilt of what he's been doing, and WON'T admit to. NOT NOW. I can't.
Thank you for your openness about what you went through with your first marriage and the ADHD. I certainly hope at SOME point, he is able to do the same, because he will do this in another relationship and hurt other people also. (which I don't want to see happen, but I can't control that)
Can I ask you how long into therapy did it take before you had an "AHA" moment, and things began to click in your mind, about what the ADHD had done to yourself and your earlier life? or is this an ongoing thing, (which I suppose it is) I'm just so glad you are here. thanks.
I've been separating my
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
I've been separating my time between my daughter's apartment and my house, but will soon move in totally with my daughter. I don't seem to feel at home EITHER place right now, and being 59 years old, it's a hard thing to handle. I've moved so many times, and I want to be able to call SOMEWHERE home, and be able to STAY there.
Yes I can believe. Your place. I'm glad that some of your family is leaning in for you right now, though. I've been thinking about you going to your daughter's. I hope being away from with your husband, for awhile, will give you some breathing room emotionally & you'll see your way forward more clearly. I hope so.
Thank you NOW, I appreciate that
Submitted by dedelight4 on
Thank you NOW for your kind words. It's true when I"m there, I can think clearer and there are distractions for me AWAY from the chaos. I'm going through quite a few feelings which I really DON'T want to feel or go through. It's going to take time, I know. I've got to get free from this insanity.
Dede I know How Hard Perspective Is To Come By...
Submitted by kellyj on
....especially right now. At least for me and how I had to deal with a situation like yours that involves loss and and a great deal of pain....knowing where you are (in the virtual not literal sense) does help a lot in getting me through. Before I answer the question you asked about the 'Aha" moment I had....please consider something here first before I answer that for you.
Your husband and you have been caught in between an unhealthy mix of the two of you contributing your own parts into it by no fault of either one of you. Your part has been to take on the responsibility for his dysfunctional parts which has set you up for much of what you experienced with him the entire time. Not just logistically but emotionally too. This has enabled him to be the victim and take on that pattern of thinking and behavior and you in turn responded by being responsible for that too. In a sense....out of the goodness in your heart and by no fault of your own, you took on a role that was neither suited to you or good for him at the very same time. Good for him because it allowed him to stay there and not change. Bad for you because you became responsible for him in more ways than you realize.
Logistically....you might argue that you had too and that really is true....but emotionally speaking.....you fed into this and volunteered in one respect....in places where you did not have to at all. If you are so use to taking on the responsibility for someone else's emotional state (picturing here hypothetically....." are you Okay? are you alright? is there anything I can do for you to make it better?)....out of this kind of concern for you husbands well being (or anyone for that matter )....out of this kindness and empathy for someone else.....you are also willingly giving away some of your own power and choice to cater to someone else's needs. In a healthy sense....there is nothing wrong with this as long as it is reciprocated (in turn) in an adult relationship.
With a child....that's different. You have a different relationship with a child and catering to them has an entirely different kind of reward system involved and the payoff you expect doesn't come for a very long time even though while your doing it....your are sacrificing yourself along the way to get that final pay off at times. Thinking in terms of self sacrificing for the better good of another......the ultimate victim in this case would be considered a martyr which is a person who completely sacrifices themselves for someone else which is where those boundaries between healthy and not healthy get a lot more blurry.
Thinking in terms of your husband being a victim here......what better person could a victim be with in that respect..... have to come to their aid or rescue than a martyr? It's a perfect fit. You will be rewarded and praised by a victim by being that martyr or they will be angry and reject you if you aren't. Or without intention on their part....won't find this a problem even if you do and won't have any motivation to change if you went in volunteering for the job. In other words....it's not great but not all that bad either in their thinking? That's one of the unintentional consequence of this that is not easy to see when you get yourself entangled in it and lose sight of where you should not go (when it crosses the line into unhealthy for you ). Once you've done that and been there for too long......as unhappy as you know you are in your own right.....you are still volunteering to give yourself away and sacrifice your own feelings for them but getting something out of it in return not unlike that of raising your kids but....there's not the same payoff or reward for being this way for an adult (child) who is a victim.
And the same for an adult (child) martyr who is playing their part in this dynamic. And the reason I am so sure about this and not just repeating back to you things I have read or learned? Because I have been "the (child) martyr" in that respect in many of my own relationships with people who were playing out the same victim role which fits perfectly into this pattern like I was saying. I was in that respect.....trained to be that way even though I was a man (or boy growing up). My job as it were....was to cater and serve the other persons dysfunction more than my own in every respect.....and to focus more on them than onto myself. When I would focus on myself (in my case here) I felt guilty. Why? Because they did the very thing your husband did....they made me responsible for things I WAS NOT responsible for....namely......passing off their guilt onto me and telling me I should feel guilty and doing it the very way your husband did to you in the example you gave.
I immediately saw that and went....HA! Nice try! That's what you need to do too....not to him, too yourself. In respect to my past......I was being a victim to a victim and playing the martyr role as the compliment to it even though on my own or by myself.....I have never been this "victim" or have had that in my thinking even though....I have played the victim role in order to apiece what I thought was doing the right thing out of the goodness of my heart. In that case in my past....this was lie I told myself just to keep on doing it because the alternative was more than I could bear to think about because it hit up against my own weakness and lack of power here since.... I had been convinced of this ( by someone else who led me down the wrong path) in believing that there was nothing I could do to correct it or stop it from happening which was the right thing to do instead of the wrong one. This was a lie and not my lie either.....the bad in this case (the lie) fell squarely on the people who fed me this line of Bullshit and kept reinforcing it with other people there to back them up who were doing the very same thing.
This is the role or part that I was trained or groomed to do.... by the very dysfunction relationship my parents had...but then later... kept finding myself back in it again. This was not by intention or even without seeing it....I didn't want the role of like it even when I was there but the reward and punishment system set up by the dynamic hit up against the very thing that prevented me from stopping myself and drawing a line where I just wouldn't go. The big player in all of this has to do with self esteem and a good self image which was the one thing that kept me from just going along and saying everything was just Okay.
Before where I could only "resist" passively growing up....I was a lot more assertive and more than just passive when I would find myself there again. This really was a healthy sign but I was not very good at doing it.....in fact, being more of an ass hole about it was the only thing that I was really doing wrong. I was refusing to play this martyr role for someone who needed me to be that and I did it mostly in the only way I knew how......either, passive resistance (and passive aggression) or out and out just being an ass hole and resisting it that way. The reward system in this dysfunctional kind of relationship is so ass backwards it becomes not a healthy balance as it should be....a bit one sided and hypocritical which is one of the big red flags that indicates this right off the bat. Hypocritical on their part....hypocritical (with myself) on mine.....or you could say it another way.....betraying yourself.
Without taking this any further..... I hope you can see something here.....I was playing the same part you were not the one that your husband is playing. This has always been the role I have defaulted to in my past so when it comes to that "Aha" moment you were asking me and why I can recognize the part or place you are in now....by default, it's the same one I have found myself in but this time for example.....I know where to draw the line and not go and I won't give up too much of myself while still trying to find a good balance between the two.
In respect to my wife that is.....she's doing that victim thing again and I'm not going there with her. I have a different expectation of myself and her at the same time and she's not digging it what so ever! lol
This is not a comfortable place for her since her power in the past....has always come from playing this role and it's not working for her this time. Holding my ground means having to fight her off constantly as she tries to ramp up her behavior MORE the more I resist her but in respect to me now.....I'm not resisting her....I'm resisting the unhealthy pattern or dynamic she keeps pushing me harder and harder to get into and I won't go! My self esteem this time is not so tenuous and I can live quite well getting my own needs met in the way I should and my self esteem is not tied to her ( or anyone for that matter) although.....my feelings are still available to get trounced on, feel rejected and dismissed not less now but even more since I am making myself available for her to do this at will. This is what I was not able to do in my past and where I caved. Instead...this time....I can keep reassuring her and lettingher know I'm still here despite what is clearly....bad behavior on her part and just let her come to that conclusion on her own each time she looks back at herself and what she did. The guilt stays right where it should be as long as I stay clean and not buy into her BS. When she starts coming unglued..... since, this is a frightening experience for her to not have what little power she did get from this to no power at all....she has to find another way to get it and I'm stubbornly resisting her in getting it any other way than the right way in this case. I am the most reluctant leader on the planet after all. lol
That was the line that I couldn't stay behind and fight for what I knew in my heart was the wrong thing to do despite the person on the other side telling me just the opposite. I believed them then....but I believe myself now in every regard and that's what came out of therapy and the knowledge to know it's the right thing to do. Not that I'm good at it and don't fall down in the process....but I know to keep staying right with what I'm doing and knowing it will work. If it doesn't.....I can't be with my wife if she needs to stay in this child like victim role to get her power and needs met that way. It just won't work and I know it without questioning it for a second. Either she joins me or she doesn't but I'm not joining her in what I already know is the wrong way to go about it. That takes a lot a strength and courage and I don't always have it every day....but I know I'll have it again as soon as that day is over and have a chance to recover to go back and do it again. I can wait and bide my time. My wife has said to me many times....."I hate to wait." That's her problem....not mine.
So Dede....if you read what I was saying about attachment styles and the "ironic paradox" to a person who seems or appears less secure, more anxious or unsure on the outside at times....and comparing them to a person who seems less insecure, more self assured and more self confident on the outside? In this weird twist of how this really works in reality.....the person showing less....actually has more (inside). That is... more courage...more strength and more resolve internally. I grant myself those things and I have proven it to myself repeatedly. I would bet based on everything I've said.....that this describes you as well. I'd take that and run with it and don't look back:) You've earned it!
J
Once the familar dynamic changes...
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Once one of the two changes how he/she interacts..
J:
This is not a comfortable place for [the other partner] since her [or his] power in the past....has always come from playing this role and it's not working for her this time. Holding my ground means having to fight her off constantly as she tries to ramp up her behavior MORE the more I resist her
Hm, from what I've seen so far in life it's pretty human to try to restore or cling to a part of life that is familiar, even if it is dysfunctional. alas, there's often a ramp up or an insisting on the old way.
Hold the healthy fort, J
To me a really important distinction:
but in respect to me now.....I'm not resisting her....I'm resisting the unhealthy pattern or dynamic she keeps pushing me harder and harder to get into and I won't go!
Not rejecting her, declining to interact with her old role?
Dede, I keep thinking about your moving to live with your daughter for awhile, and am glad you have made a move for yourself, you've been through such a lot,
Have also thought about what you asked about apologies. No that wasnt one. Yes, he made it all about him.
NowOrNever That Fork in the Road
Submitted by kellyj on
This is where you have to make a choice. This is by all means....one of two ways to go almost always since....there are few instances where you don't ever have this choice unless you are a child. Compassion and empathy are the next step not the original thing that's missing. I really believe this is the answer to making these decisions and it's never an easy one to make when you have to choose between yourself and someone else. i think recognizing it is mostly the failure on our parts and that in itself is not a crime....we are all human after all.
Here's a really good quote made by Bill Maer who I have mixed feelings about in general but none the less......." We do, upon reaching a very high comfort level, mostly choose to go from ten to eleven instead of helping another guy far away go from zero to one" In context to our nations passive aggression within our society and transferring that to our foreign policy. He goes on to make a another quote along the same thinking...“Not doing anything is doing something and choosing to look away is a passive but no less mortal sin.”
Another one made by Mary Crocker Cook (author of Co-dependency and Men) "“When I consider the men (like my father) I have treated in psychotherapy, I recognize the challenge I face as a counselor. These men are in counseling due to an insistent wife, troubled child or their own addiction. They suffer a lack of connection with the people they say they love most. Chronically accused of being over controlling or emotionally absent, they feel at sea when their wives and children claim to be lonely in their presence. How can these people feel “un-loved” when (from his perspective) he has dedicated his life to their welfare?
In turn...(author) Tiffaney Madison made this observation “[On Female Attraction to Men in Uniform] That male military persona feeds a subconscious, passive-aggressive female desire to dominate the warrior as he is perceived an iconic example of masculinity (particularly amongst traditionally warlike cultures). The damsel in distress theme always struck me as embodying this: the hapless, innocently beautiful woman unwittingly enraptures the heroic male so completely that he would risk all to submit to her at his own peril, and quite in spite of it.”
― Tiffany Madison
Another one “Love without sacrifice is like theft”― Nassim Nicholas Taleb, The Bed of Procrustes: Philosophical and Practical Aphorisms
And finally ME (this being my own quote even though I'm not aware of anyone else who might have said it this way.....thinking, nothing new under the sun....I'm sure I'm not the first lol ) " Life without pain..... is living without life"
All of the things said here have to do with being passive or passive aggressive. They're not saying these things to say.... just the opposite or throw the baby out with the bath water....it's a moral dilemma and one of moral social consciousness and the fight between yourself and the responsibility you have to others. This is a human dilemma which falls onto each and every individual on a relative basis and you have to make a choice each time you come to these forks in the road on a daily basis if you are going to live your life NOT in complete solitude believing this is the only choice you have. Thinking...... like the Uni Bomber living in a cabin in isolation in the woods while sending bombs via the postal service in out rage against the government. Passive aggressive? Why yes...I think it is! lol
Not being good at asserting yourself and playing a passive role does not mean you aren't being passive aggressive. Take my word for it on that! lol But neither is asserting yourself poorly mean you aren't being responsible and not standing up for yourself when you should. Just being really bad at doing it that's all. If you never learned how before....is no excuse not to learn to do it now. And how:)
J
Dede My Last Comment Was In Reply....
Submitted by kellyj on
.....to now or never when she was bringing up the comment I made about "not resisting my wife"...specifically. This has no reflection on you what so ever but only to say that I am sure you can come up with many things you've done in your past that your husband has used to tell you that you did something that hurt him in some way and done so in the same way he made that comment to you. It is a form of a passive aggressive comment while hiding behind the air of "poor me" the victim.
Seeing it for what it is is not saying he is a bad person or even an immoral person for being this way. All of this is just saying that he didn't make a choice when he needed too.... and went down the first road he came to in the fork and chose the wrong one each time. Both ways require a compromise and he picked the one that suited him best and didn't look any further in thinking about the best compromise or the smartest one.
Most likely as I did....the one that caused him to suffer the least and the one that caused other people to suffer most but it is never cut and dried or black and white. There are no good guy/gal... bad guy/gal here....only what is left over after the fact. That's all you've really got anyway if you think about it...the past is gone and all you've got left is a memory of it.... The only thing you can do is focus on the next time (now) and try and do it better by learning from your mistakes....that's the only value guilt serves us anyway...it's not there to make you feel bad forever.
In respect to your H and his comment to you....this is exactly where the mistake in his own thinking is which is clearly visible in the comment itself. You can forgive him for that much I think.... but even if he can't.....you can forgive yourself:)
Interesting comments J
Submitted by c ur self on
Quotes are starting to be some of my favorite things....(How can these people feel “un-loved” when (from his perspective) he has dedicated his life to their welfare?)....This is One Sad reality! A smile, A tear, and an embrace....Can change the world....I guess this is my quote LOL... When people are void of certain emotions and when their hearts are not able to be touched, it puts them out to sea....And leaves their loved ones on the shore....
"Alexithymia"
Alexithymia
Submitted by kellyj on
This was thought provoking C . As I understand it (taken from a description I just looked up for clarification) Bagby and Taylor also suggest that there may be two kinds of alexithymia, "primary alexithymia" which is an enduring psychological trait that does not alter over time, and "secondary alexithymia" which is state-dependent and disappears after the evoking stressful situation has changed. These two manifestations of alexithymia are otherwise called "trait" or "state" alexithymia.
I wondered about this myself at one time and pretty quickly put myself (if anything here?) in the "state" manifestation.....but again, this is really rare for me unless I'm REALLY stressed! That or just down right furious or angry and I don't give a rip anymore when I get to that point. I don't think this is so unusual either and probably not what they are referring to when talking about this.
On the other hand.....it does seem to be highly correlated with ASD (autism and aspergers) commonly. Thinking here on your behalf.....who diagnosed your wife as being ADHD? I looked into to this a while ago not so much in fear for myself.....but not wanting to discount it as possible dual diagnosis either. What I read was interesting in that they are really trying to look at this from a different perspective differently now than in the past. It seems a common practice for physicians to discover or diagnose these things and never talk another look beyond the first discovery they find and call it good right there. This is now being re-evaluated which was in a sense....what I was doing myself.
Here are a couple of things that I thought of when thinking about the quotes about men and women and looking at these distinctions through a different lens myself.
Warrior Archetype
Knight Archetype
Princess (or damsel) Archetype
Artist Archetype (for myself here only in this case)
As it seems for me.....the Warrior Archetype is very strong in me along with the Artist. This is an unusual somewhat contradictory mix...but as this is used....we are all just a mix and they have a neutralizing effect on one another.....hence balance. The one that doesn't fit me well at all is the Knight and that is where most of my problems have come from in my relationships. This one does not feel right to me when I'm in this role and it is a difficult one to resolve played against the Warrior. They look quite the same from the outside but by definition....are distinctly different despite the apparent over laps.
Anyway....I find this all fascinating but in terms of what you said that I recall well about your wife in relationship to her "flipping you the bird" on the plane which took you back in your seat. Thinking in terms of Alexithymia.....yes, I see what you are saying. It does seem to fit....more over.....what was it that she was expressing to you that way? In a sense...the wrong expression for what she was really feeling? That would make sense. This I also think is suspect with my wife as well. PTSD is also associated which also falls into the "state" and less "trait" category. Stress and anxiety are key. As I know as well as you in this case....it's a tough one to handle if that's the case. Those hits in the head emotionally can really set you back in your seat! Ouch!
J
J
C A Passing Thought That Came to Mind
Submitted by kellyj on
I'm not going to assume that you have looked into Jung's Archetypes but it is related to attachment theory and the innate programming or 'collective consciousness" as Jung coined it. I'm obviously a big fan of this kind of thinking in all respects to it. The passing thought had to do with the "shadow" or the flip side of the coin. It's not in respect to how Jung describe it as being "evil" or "dark" as you might expect....but more in line with it being literally...a shadow caused by the light being blocked from direct line of sight or "on the surface". What this means is someone who is operating in the shadow can be bad but not necessarily. In effect...it has the unrealized potential of going either way which might be another way of saying "temptation." "Sin" as described is going against oneself or betraying yourself.
Another way to describe the shadow is the weakness or counter part to the strength of each Archetype. It is only a weakness if you indulge it but to resist it requires strength. Not to get too far into this but you can see all the makings of everything in Christianity but conceived in a different approach or perspective. (that different lens I was talking about)
As the parables are designed to do.....the answers are not always clear and you must make a choice to see the light within them which is always the truth. If you know what to look for.....you will know it when you see it:)
J
Jung's archetypes....Never heard of it....
Submitted by c ur self on
Based on your explanation which I think you nailed...It makes lots of sense....
Jung say's....Shadow = Temptation to Sin, or Opportunity to grow stronger.......Christianity says if anyone walks in the night, he stumbles, because the light is not in him....So walk in the light, as he is in the light.....
C
It's a Facinating Story
Submitted by kellyj on
How Jung went about researching and figuring this out is a fascinating story if you ever get bored:)
J
J
Submitted by c ur self on
I think the effects of clincial level adhd can replicate the same awareness issues as Alexithymia based on my experience with her...I'm not sure who or when she was diagnoised...It's not something she talks about, with me anyway....I would think she could handle a conversation about it with a girl friend maybe...I've tried to have a conversation about it with her a few times, but, she usually just blurts out you have Add and your bi-polar too...so I think it's just best to not go there....
C
I Get the Same C
Submitted by kellyj on
It's hard to have a conversation with someone who only throws what ever you say back in your face.
If I say... "I'm this way and you"re that way".....she says..."you're that way too". mmmm??
Okay... Let's start again...."I'm this way which is different than the way you are." "No I'm not....You do the same thing???? errrrrrrrrr!!!
One more time.."I have ADHD and you don't.... that means...what I do is not what you do in the exact same way for the same reasons. "Yes it is" $%&*#&!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Is it further to New York....or by plane??
I get it. By the way....my wife does seem to have all the features as described. Thanks for the lead....it does seem to fit. It does feel like I'm in that skit by Monty Python sometimes ie: "Argument Clinic" I'll get back to you on anything new I find that works....you're not alone my friend:)
J
J, incredible post, reading again and again
Submitted by dedelight4 on
"
J, once again, thank you for something SO INFORMATIVE. I've had to read it several times, and every time I read it, I see something else about myself and my husband. Thank you for so earnestly sharing your hard learned lessons with me, to help me learn and grow as well. I feel like a sponge that can't get enough knowledge and want to absorb as much as I can to GET..........to get OUT of this quagmire I've found myself in.
"Good for him because it allowed him to stay there and not change. Bad for you because you became responsible for him in more ways than you realize."
YES.......very, very true. This makes total sense. I did become responsible for many things FOR him, like trying to smooth over hurt feelings of people he would bombard with some crude statement, and walking away oblivious to what he had just said to them. And tons more things LIKE that, but I've STOPPED smoothing anything over, ESPECIALLY with our grown children. I'm LETTING them be angry with him, and LETTING them feel their hurt feelings without trying to explain ANYTHING away, or help all of them try to understand each other. NOT ANY MORE. I DO like the fact, that with changing THAT ONE aspect of things, my daughters are feeling empowered to do MORE and express more to me, without fear of hurting me. They DON'T want to hurt me, and I don't WANT them to do that. I want to know THE TRUTH of how they feel, and if they hurt, and LET them express themselves even if it means telling the truth to their Dad. They no longer fear his reprisals, which I think is great. They are both respectful daughters and are good women, women of character and strength, and I LOVE THAT ABOUT THEM.
We have GREAT daughters, and my husband has NEVER been able to see HOW GOOD they are. He finds fault with them, me, and everyone, but himself, (the blame factor) hiding behind his grandiosity, with all his insecurities STILL in sight. (which he thinks he covers up so well) And, he doesn't realize that we SEE all his insecurities he's trying to hide behind his well constructed walls.
There is more I'm reading about the "attachment styles", which is another thing that is in this mix. He totally has an attachment disorder, and I can check off EVERY symptom on the attachment disorder symptoms checklist. There is a book I'm starting to read which is about Covert Emotional Manipulation, and wow, he has done many of those things as well. And, I allowed it. That's what is SO MADDENING.
Yes, both of our stations in life were set early. We were both broken people and found each other. But, I don't want to STAY BROKEN ANY MORE. I want out of it, and have spent years trying to learn as much as I can, and each new learned thing about myself gives me added strength. I LIKE THAT, and want that, and want more of that. TO GET OUT, and become who I was meant to be, and who I"d LIKE myself to be.
I am working at no longer being his caretaker, mainly in part, because I physically CAN'T do it, plus, I'm am just TOTALLY DONE with this whole thing. (especially with the more I learn) I still catch myself occasionally allowing him to use me to "get HIS needs met, without giving of himself", which ENDS......NOW.
It DOESN'T FEEL like strength in backing out of this. In fact, I feel pretty damn useless and weak, but there HAS to be some strength somewhere to GET OUT, because I just can't take it any more. I told him that being around him "sucks the life force out of me"...........know what he said?......He said, "I know it does". that statement right there stunned me to the core. He KNOWS he is sucking my life force out of me..........for himself to keep going. NO LONGER. I won't be his go-between, between himself and LIFE any more. Either he faces himself, and what happened to him early in life to create what he became, or he doesn't.
Yes, I kept it going TOO LONG. He used the person I am, to keep his life going. It's a total dysfunctional reality, and it's NOT HEALTHY IN ANY WAY. The destruction has done tons of damage to both of us, but MORE to me. As long as he stays in so much denial of himself, he protects his "identity". (or so he thinks, I guess)
Careful Dede
Submitted by kellyj on
Just one word about "attachment disorders". I'm not even going to speculate here but....you need to be careful and not jump the gun. "Attachment styles" are what everyone has. ADHD for example....is considered a disorder and not everyone has it. As soon as you start pointing the finger at "attachment disorders"....you're pointing the finger at yourself in smaller ways and you can easily paint yourself into a corner really fast. I think on that level it is very extreme...to the point, you probably would not have even picked your husband in the first place if that were the case. Staying on "styles" at least is a safe bet until that could be confirmed by a professional. Enough said.
Moving on to the really great things that you are finding with your daughters. I can't even begin to tell you the battle that my mother and I use to have over this very thing. Like tooth and nail and I didn't budge an inch!! That's all that becomes of this or else...you just give up trying. I was kind of stubborn in that way ( a good way non the less) and I was holding her feet to the fire every time! Which ultimately did nothing to change anything other than to give my mother sore feet and me just getting more frustrated and angry with HER....not the people (or person) I should have been angry at or at least....have the opportunity to get angry at because she interceded and tried to prevent it by smoothing everything over. That just breeds contempt and passive aggression when you are not allowed to express what you really are feeling or thinking and someone else tries to do this for you or cuts you off at the pass before you get the chance. Not so good when other people are trying to protect you from your own feelings and the other person who they are angry at. Like..."what the hell mom...speak for yourself!!" lol
You will never really know anyone that way or what they are really thinking when you do that and that is exactly what you don't want. Everyone has the right to speak their (own mind) especially when it is something that is affecting them personally. All that does is make them feel more powerless and it's not protecting them from anything. From themselves? Not so much.
I think the less you feed into it with your H right now....the more things will become apparent to you. It leaves him right where he is and you right where you are without any help on your part. Things tend to become pretty obvious when there is only one dysfunction going on in the room at a time. I'll spare you the long story I just had with this but saying it straight up.....in one day of doing this well with my wife.....proved more enlightening to HER than a year of doing it with my input. How I did this was not saying anything for an entire day (intentionally silent) unless I was spoken too. I did focused entirely on her needs, every word she said and did whatever I was told to the letter. I made no decisions, voiced no needs or wants and deferred entirely to her for every decision on what, how, when, where and never asked her why or questioned her about anything for an entire day. At the end of the day.....I finally spoke up and told her that I thought that day went quite well since we didn't argue or fight over a single thing.
Her reply to this was that she felt like killing herself. I told her....I really didn't know why since these were all the things she has been asking for and I did it extremely well I thought....in fact....I did it so well I thought the day was a huge success on my part. Then I told her that I was sorry for breaking silence with anything that had to do with the sentence "I want......." and I was going to go back to doing what I was told.
The only time I broke silence other than to respond to her (speak when spoken too)....was when she said to me " Gee... I know where we can go to eat something you want to eat" In a split second without hesitation I said..." how could you possibly know what I want to eat...but go right ahead and tell me.....I'd like to know that as well." This was a Freudian slip on her part but I jumped on that and responded exactly how I heard it and didn't interpret her at all.
In the entire day....that was the only assertion I made and the day ended with only that and we didn't arguing or discuss anything even once. I handed her the reigns and gave her all the power 100% ....yet, she wanted to kill herself? Mmmm....I certainly did nothing to provoke that response? Or did I?
I knew what I was doing but it was not to be mean or passive aggressive unintentionally.....it was only to make a point and I discontinued that right away. In this case....I spoke volumes without saying much of anything and she heard it and felt it in REAL time just as it happened.
The next day....her attitude changed quite bit and was a lot more humble. And I kept being nice and doing what ever I could in the same way I did before but now this time....I was speaking to her and contributing and things seemed to go much better after that and we have not had any real disagreements or fights about anything that I had to say that involved ME or what I wanted since then. Did this work or not? My gut tells me it did and I didn't have to fight or say anything to get my message across. Less is more in this case.
J
I'm sorry to hear about what
Submitted by AliceInBraids on
I'm sorry to hear about what you are going through. I thought I could maybe make you smile with a story it reminded me of. My husband does the same thing with needing "proof" of anything I say that may be questionable, as he is infinitely smarter than me and knows all. Well a few years back, he had heard that the wife of one of his father's longtime friends had died. Through a grapevine of my own, I had heard that she was recovering from her illness. Well my husband did not even consider that I was right even though my source was a good one. Naturally, whoever-the-hell from wherever-the-hell knew better. Until the day we ran into his fathers friend at the grocery store and my husband offered his sincere condolences. I was the only one smiling as my husband was informed that I had been right.
Ha.