As I see my children deal with certain struggles as young adults, I question whether it was a good idea for me and my husband to attempt to minimize the effects of (and thus "normalize") things such as his extended unemployment. I didn't think arguing was a good idea, but maybe that would have been better than allowing the issues to be buried (for the most part) but not resolved. My daughters have issues with insecurity, perfectionism, and trusting men, and it seems to me that some of their issues might derive from, for lack of a better term, lack of a strong father figure. Your thoughts?( I made mistakes, too, as do we all, but I generally made strong attempts to right my wrongs, so please spare me the "we always hear about your husband's faults but not yours, Rosered" comments.)
"Normalizing" Partner's Behavior: Good or Not Good?
Submitted by PoisonIvy on 10/05/2016.
We are unfortunately not
Submitted by vabeachgal on
We are unfortunately not provided with step by step manuals for child rearing and dealing with an ADHD marriage. My answer is maybe. I think that non-ADHD spouses do the best we can to protect and nurture our children under whatever circumstances we are presented with. Is it perfect? No. I jokingly tell my children that of all of their collective friends, I can name only one family I consider to be "functional" and even then I'm not a fly on the wall. Interestingly, I am now learning that the children of this family are now dealing with issues of excessive expectations of achievement and rebellion. LOL. I can't say which approach is best, I can only say that there would probably be fallout either way. If the marriage is not fully functional, the children will experience some repercussions regardless..... it's hard to know what to say, how to say it, whether or not you should alienate the children from a parent, whether you should make them part of your problems, how much to involve the kids, what is or isn't age appropriate, etc.
I see some of what you're describing now. I am offering the best support and guidance to the children that I am capable of right here right now. I spent a lot of time second guessing my approach with my husband over the years and I'm not going to waste more brain power second guessing this aspect of my life as well.
But yes, many studies show that a good father figure is important in the lives of girls especially.
Rosered, important post
Submitted by dedelight4 on
This has been the same for me and my daughters. I have had to watch them go through years of pain and anguish, and having THEM go through somtimes VERY hurtful relationships because they both chose men who emulated the behaviors of their "Daddy". They each had one very abusive relationship until they "got out". Children WANT to please their parents (in many cases), and want their parents ESPECIALLY to be PROUD of them. I remember my girls saying, "Oh, you're going to LIKE this guy, he's JUST LIKE DADDY". which they at the time thought was supposed to be a "good" thing. If MOM did it, then it HAS to be good? right? Well, no, it wasn't that way, and it was so stressful to get through.
No matter HOW MUCH LOVE I showed my girls, and how understanding I was with them, it was MY LIFE that was teaching them the MOST about what life is about. It was WHAT I WAS LIVING, not what I was TELLING them. And, I was showing them that by LIVING and enduring all the crazy, mixed up, hurtful things I was going through, was what marriage was ABOUT. Even thought in their hearts, they knew Mom was sad, and was trying to smooth things over for them. They STILL followed in my footsteps and did the SAME THINGS I DID.
But, as they grew, and went through several hurtful relationships, they finally found better men to be with. And, yet No it's still not ideal, but there's no ADHD involved and no co-morbid conditions with their spouses.
The hardest thing was to sit, listen and hear their deep seated hurts, and how they felt disrespected, UNHEARD, and put down by the Daddy that was supposed to "love them". It caused very HURTFUL things to their hearts, minds and souls.
And in today's world. (like Rosered said, how she didn't want to hear any more "it's YOUR FAULT", comments any more) I am also tired of SO MUCH blame being put on the spouses and children of people with mental conditions, co-morbidity, and further items, to where we are beaten down into a sort of submission of IT'S YOUR FAULT for not doing "list, upon list of things", when the most hurtful spouse is continuing in their same behaviors. Can you see where this is SO CONFUSING for children growing up in a home? You CAN'T reason in adult terms to children, and just hope they "get it". They FEEL WHAT THEY FEEL, and they SEE the damage to their mothers, and society keeps on blaming us for "Not having done enough, or separating ourselves enough, or __________fill in the blank". Because DURING these times, the children are missing the things they SHOULD be getting, and that's having a more normal childhood without having to deal with "adult issues".
I'm not trying to go into a mega rant here, sorry if it sounds like that, but sometimes the overwhelming aspects of ALL this, without enough HELP is just this....OVERWHELMING, and the children surely see this, AND FEEL IT, AND INTERNALIZE IT, to where it shapes THEIR future, and then decisions get made by them that maybe wouldn't have been made had they NOT had all that mess.
You said it so much better.
Submitted by vabeachgal on
You said it so much better. That's what I meant to say :)
I couldn't agree more with the blame game. Earlier in the marriage, when I knew something was wrong but couldn't say what that something was, many people gave me well meaning but misguided advice (ie judgments). It felt like blame or an indication that I was really screwing up..... I wasn't assertive enough.... I wasn't communicating well enough.... I was being too bossy..... I was too submissive... you're not telling him what you need....he can't read your mind..... I was allowing him too much freedom.... No, wait, I was giving him too long a leash..... why don't you just.... divvy up chores... make a chart... get a calendar.... stop doing everything...hire it out (as if we had money for that due to his irresponsible spending) ...go on date nights (he would never plan) ... I would never tolerate that (you must be a stupid bitch)... you're letting him get away with too much.... he's having a hard time transitioning to marriage and kids, give him a break.... you're too dependent... you're too independent, he doesn't think you need help.... you're not asking for help....
Interestingly, I can count on one hand with fingers leftover, the number of people who suggested to me or my husband that he should do more voluntarily. It was always about what additional effort I should put in or new strategies to employ.... no one ever thought, wow, maybe there's something wrong with him? Why doensn't he get it? Why? IDK. I think society as a whole still gives men a pass regarding household and child rearing responsibilities. ONE person told him that he should participate 50/50. My H followed up with excuses for why he couldn't (work). He gave an excuse about why he shouldn't participate 50/50 (I would be responsible anyway, if he wasn't there so what's my complaint? As if my choice in life boiled down to him or alone?) ONE person told him that unless he made enough money to keep me at home then he needed to shut up and help and that expecting me to do everything at home was unfair and unreasonable. I had ONE person ask me if he was treating me all right. 14 years. 3 people.
My kids saw me trying without success. They saw me sad, anxious and exhausted.
The reality was that my husband couldn't/wouldn't/can't do certain things. The "blame" made me feel worse, as if what I was doing was all wrong. None of this is good modeling for children. I know he has ADHD and depression and probably something else. I know that he has some deep seated expectations for women that have nothing to do with ADHD or any comorbid condition.
I already tell my 18 year old son to plan to make enough money to hire a housekeeper so he doesn't get divorced. Monkey see monkey do. My daughter absolutely won't tolerate bs in men and has found someone who treats her very well. She has made it very clear she will be no one's household slave. I guess what I'm saying is maybe it is better to bring it all up in the open so the kids are making fewer UNCONSCIOUS decisions and are more aware about the choices they make. I wish I had known about the ADHD diagnosis sooner so I could have explained it to the children.
vabeachgal, hindsight is hard
Submitted by dedelight4 on
I too went through people saying, "Try this,", or "try that", and absolutely nothing was said to my husband about how he could treat his wife in a better way, or give him suggestions on better communication. I too wish we had known about the ADHD so much earlier, but we didn't. And, yes, he too has deep seated things that have nothing to do with ADHD, but are beliefs that were either taught to him, or he just surmised. Even a few different counselors focused more on me, than they did my husband, since I was the one sitting in the office crying.
The psychiatrist who diagnosed my husband didn't give him any "tests" to see what level his ADHD was at, or if he had co-morbid conditions, Plus, he and me husband were sort of like best "buddies". It didn't sit too good with me. When we started there, I had just found out FOR SURE, about my hubands affair, and the psychiatrist said that I was being "too emotional".....Really? TOO EMOTIONAL? My life was in ruins, and i was too emotional because i was crying? I wasn't yelling or screaming or accusing. Yes, I wanted answers, but he even told my husband "Not to tell me anything about the affair". Everything I've read since then about healing from affairs, goes AGAINST what this guy said. Most counselors tell the person who had the affair that they have to "come clean" about evrything, and then be as transparent about EVERYTHING, in order to rebuild trust, and try to heal the marriage.
I wanted to know what I DID, to add to the affair, or was there ANYTHING I was doing? etc. I got NO ANSWERS whatsoever from either of them. But, for 3 years, my husband went to this guy, (every week) and DH would sit there and shoot the breeze with him, and talk about his work, and his stress level, and then DH would come home feeling GREAT. It made no sense, and seemed like a colossal waste of money. This guy is now living in Costa Rica, and has a practice down there.
I also went to the minister who married us, asking for marriage counseling for us. My husband denied everything, said nothing about himself, denied the affair, and sat there stoic and like the "offended partner". The pastor blamed me, for being too sensitive and "emotional", and I felt unheard once again, and was very, very sad leaving there.
When there is lying and dishonestly and denial happening in a relationship, there is more hurt done to the parties involved than can be measured.
I'm trying to do things differently now, and what scares me, is that I learned NOT to trust myself in all this. I AM learning different things now, and am aware of many more things. The only thing I have yet to do is actually GET OUT among people once again, because i've been SO SCARED to trust again. Trusting myself around others is my biggest obstacle.
Oh, how I can relate to this...
Submitted by sensativa on
Fiancé's parents, especially his dad who also has ADHD / Aspergers, used to ALWAYS break into our "arguments" (me trying to talk to fiancé about issues and he stonewalls, deflects and then storms off to parents), then gave me reasons and "advice" on how I could be a better fiancé. "Plan more" (because he wouldn't do it), "try to understand his disability" (despite me having Aspergers and felt my needs were not met, and how they told me it's "not the same thing and not as severe"...), "you're not respecting him" (by trying to talk about serious issues a couple should be able to without it resulting in temper tantrums and running off), and the list goes on. My favorite was "you're being overly emotional" (again, when trying to calmly talk to my fiancé, I was apparently being "overly emotional"...)
They fortunately grew up and stopped this ridiculous behaviour, but the wounds are definitely still there. I resent them quite a bit still, despite it being over 3 years ago this happened. But they just kept doing this to the point of me feeling like a she-devil and an evil b*tch to their son. Then when I got hospitalized for extreme stress and an eating disorder, then suddenly turned 180 and basically said "it's all okay, because we just did this because we were on the verge of divorcing. Hope you can forgive us!" ... SERIOUSLY?!
Fun knowing I'm gonna have to deal with them in the future, if fiancé and me are still a thing...
You said it so much better.
Submitted by vabeachgal on
You said it so much better. That's what I meant to say :)
I couldn't agree more with the blame game. Earlier in the marriage, when I knew something was wrong but couldn't say what that something was, many people gave me well meaning but misguided advice (ie judgments). It felt like blame or an indication that I was really screwing up..... I wasn't assertive enough.... I wasn't communicating well enough.... I was being too bossy..... I was too submissive... you're not telling him what you need....he can't read your mind..... I was allowing him too much freedom.... No, wait, I was giving him too long a leash..... why don't you just.... divvy up chores... make a chart... get a calendar.... stop doing everything...hire it out (as if we had money for that due to his irresponsible spending) ...go on date nights (he would never plan) ... I would never tolerate that (you must be a stupid bitch)... you're letting him get away with too much.... he's having a hard time transitioning to marriage and kids, give him a break.... you're too dependent... you're too independent, he doesn't think you need help.... you're not asking for help....
Interestingly, I can count on one hand with fingers leftover, the number of people who suggested to me or my husband that he should do more voluntarily. It was always about what additional effort I should put in or new strategies to employ.... no one ever thought, wow, maybe there's something wrong with him? Why doensn't he get it? Why? IDK. I think society as a whole still gives men a pass regarding household and child rearing responsibilities. ONE person told him that he should participate 50/50. My H followed up with excuses for why he couldn't (work). He gave an excuse about why he shouldn't participate 50/50 (I would be responsible anyway, if he wasn't there so what's my complaint? As if my choice in life boiled down to him or alone?) ONE person told him that unless he made enough money to keep me at home then he needed to shut up and help and that expecting me to do everything at home was unfair and unreasonable. I had ONE person ask me if he was treating me all right. 14 years. 3 people.
My kids saw me trying without success. They saw me sad, anxious and exhausted.
The reality was that my husband couldn't/wouldn't/can't do certain things. The "blame" made me feel worse, as if what I was doing was all wrong. None of this is good modeling for children. I know he has ADHD and depression and probably something else. I know that he has some deep seated expectations for women that have nothing to do with ADHD or any comorbid condition.
I already tell my 18 year old son to plan to make enough money to hire a housekeeper so he doesn't get divorced. Monkey see monkey do. My daughter absolutely won't tolerate bs in men and has found someone who treats her very well. She has made it very clear she will be no one's household slave. I guess what I'm saying is maybe it is better to bring it all up in the open so the kids are making fewer UNCONSCIOUS decisions and are more aware about the choices they make. I wish I had known about the ADHD diagnosis sooner so I could have explained it to the children.
Love this thread
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
Based on all the posts in this thread, it seems to ‘hit the nail on the head’; right to where my pondering has been over the past several weeks.
Our children are also both ‘young adults’ at age 25 and 27.
I would see any ‘attempt to minimize the effects of (and thus "normalize") things’ as an attempt to make our life appear as something it is not. They are adults. Some things in our marriage are none of their business. Some things in their relationships are none of our business. There needs to be that mutual respect that we are – all four of us – individuals, with the freedom to make our own choices, make our own paths, and (except for immoral or illegal behavior,) I want us to each support the other in trying to forge our ways through life,with the confidence that the other three have our backs!
I did not know about ADHD when my children were small. Thus, I had no need to protect them from anything. I have made the choice to step out of denial. I am going the honest route. Not nasty, insulting, put downs. But rather honest, truthful fact based statements. I like order, and organization. I have a high standard. I keep that bar set high by my own choice. At any time, I can lower it if it gets my big girl panties in a bunch.
I do have the confidence that I did the best I could, dealt with issues head-on as they came up, and never ran or hid from problems. How can anyone really know if their marriage/family is functional or not? I have lots of friends and family, and I see some odd ways of living that I would not choose for me and mine! They are not bad. But, I see them as odd.
Personality plays a big part in each person’s demeanor and way of living. Accepting what we can’t change, and, wanting to change what no longer serves us, is our own place to choose. I believe things my daughter struggles with are ‘life.’ In some aspects, she does take after me. Yes, I agree " many studies show that a good father figure is important in the lives of girls especially." My spouse honored his daughter as she grew up, told her she was beautiful, encouraged her, and treated her as a princess. He was a great Father-Figure. My spouse was the best Dad my children could ever want. He spent time with them. He encouraged them. He never hit them. He never insulted them. He never said a nasty word to hurt their character. I would never alienate them from him.
“I remember my girls saying, "Oh, you're going to LIKE this guy, he's JUST LIKE DADDY". which they at the time thought was supposed to be a "good" thing. If MOM did it, then it HAS to be good? right?” My daughter did choose a man who was just like her daddy in some aspects. All seven years they dated, we often joked about he was just like her Dad. Their marriage was over in less than a year. And she was divorced shortly after their 2nd anniversary. That young man my daughter married was a fine young man – as my spouse is a fine man – it is the relationship skills that are not working well.
Me, when I got married, I think I made choices based on fear. Fear I would lose him. Fear I would not be what he wanted. As I have stated before, I was the one who got tired of how I did “the marriage thing.” I was the one who realized I wanted more than just keeping my spouse happy. I wanted more for me than receiving reproof by family and church that I had ‘better be careful or I would lose him.’ I may have been a wrong example, but I owned it, expressed it and said I wanted to make it different. Sadly, what I have been doing has not been fruitful in acquiring what I dream. And this gal has tried a LOT. Many things. Many ways.
I do not want to live in fear. Nor do I want the pendulum to swing in the opposite direction of ‘you better be careful or you will lose me.’
I refuse to lay fault anywhere, on anyone, including myself. We did what we did. And now we do what we do.
“Earlier in the marriage, when I knew something was wrong but couldn't say what that something was, many people gave me well meaning but misguided advice (ie judgments). It felt like blame or an indication that I was really screwing up..... I wasn't assertive enough.... I wasn't communicating well enough.... I was being too bossy..... I was too submissive... you're not telling him what you need....he can't read your mind..... I was allowing him too much freedom.... No, wait, I was giving him too long a leash..... why don't you just.... divvy up chores... make a chart... get a calendar.... stop doing everything...hire it out (as if we had money for that due to his irresponsible spending) ...go on date nights (he would never plan) ... I would never tolerate that (you must be a stupid bitch)... you're letting him get away with too much.... he's having a hard time transitioning to marriage and kids, give him a break.... you're too dependent... you're too independent, he doesn't think you need help.... you're not asking for help.... “ Yes, I can 100% agree. This is how I felt. WHY can’t LIZ get it right?
The reality was that my husband couldn't/wouldn't/can't do certain things. Yes, I can 100% agree with this, too. This is how I felt.
I respect my spouse as a man. I feel the pressure of not attacking his manhood. Old fashioned ideals are good to a point. They get in my way.
"I already tell my 18 year old son to plan to make enough money to hire a housekeeper so he doesn't get divorced." Interestingly enough, my son asked how much money I pay the cleaning lady who come to our house every 2 weeks. I was prepared to get blasted. Much to my chagrin, he said he wanted to know so he can work it into his budget for when he gets a house. Smart boy! We just cannot do it all. We gotta look at what we have, and get rid of stuff that weighs us down. If there is not enough time to get everything done - - -then things have got to go. We cannot force more hours into a day. It just does not work that way. We gotta look at our limits, and decide “Do I want to be a slave to all the responsibility of keeping up with this stuff, or do I want to free myself from the burden of all the pressure?"
Me, I want to downsize. Get rid of stuff. Lower the weekly work load. Lower the level of “gotta get it done, gotta get it done.”
“I also went to the minister . . . . . . . asking for marriage counseling for us.” Same here. He told me he could not help me unless it was my spouse who came to ask.
My spouse and I see things very differently. I no longer want to learn to do it his way, any more than I want him to do it my way. I dream of mutual respect. I dream of shared responsibilities. I dream of team work, where my strengths are used, and so are his.
My ability to love is shut up tight. Behind walls that are thick. Each choice I made to agree to be vulnerable, backfired and created a new wall to go up around the previous one. I have absolutely no clue how to decide if I have learned a lesson well, of if I should find a way to try again.
Outside of the ADHD factor, there still has to be a relationship. This is what I believe.
From Dr. Goldsmith in an article in Psychology Today, in March 2013
“A relationship cannot survive on its own. It needs the care and nurturing of two adults, giving to each other in a way that creates a mutually beneficial connection. To foster a deep and loving relationship, there needs to be:
The willingness to work through difficulties and disagreements. Throwing in the towel, even if you don’t walk out the door, is not the path to happiness. You must face the discomfort that comes with differing opinions and ideas.
Love, intimacy, romance, and sex. These are the cornerstones of a loving relationship. Being great roommates just won’t cut it. There has to be the desire to be together as a couple. You may think the spark has gone, but there are too many ways to rekindle it. All you have to do is try.
Compassion, acceptance, and forgiveness. These will show you the way through a difficult time. If you are together for a while, there will be losses, challenges, and some things that you just can’t fix. Weathering the storms together is a big part of what relationships are all about.
Just as we need to breathe to survive, your love needs a breath of fresh air to flourish. Giving your relationship what it needs to thrive is a truly loving gesture.
Very truly,
Liz
Liz, I loved your post
Submitted by dedelight4 on
The list you shared from Dr. Goldsmith is wonderful " 1.Kind, constant, and honest communication. Without talking, your relationship will not survive. The more you communicate, the closer you will be."
Number one is the one that really was the downfall of our marriage. My husband didn't have the skills to communicate or talk. I'm not sure if he just didn't WANT to, or he just found it too hard, but the non talking about US gave us no way to help us survive. He says he "Just can't say the things he wants to, and nothing comes out right". I wish he would have talked about this with the counselor/psychiatrists he's gone to, but he didn't. Talking about his deeper inner self I guess was too hard for him. He wanted us to talk about ME and my issues and problems, which we did in counseling, and I was fine with that, but again, that turned out to be "a distraction" so that our time would get eaten up more with me, and he wouldn't be asked as much. I wish the counselors we did see, would have caught this, and that we could have gone deeper into the ADHD, but again sadly, we didn't.
Love your posts, Liz,
What we wish counselors can see/understand/help
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
dedelight4,
Right now, today, at this moment in time, I see how ruffled my spouse's feathers got when he had an experience at his doctor's office this morning. He took it very personally.
"My spouse went to his doctor's office to pick up a prescription refill script for his ADHD meds, and was instead handed a specimen cup. Seems he now has to prove his medication is in his system before they will refill it."
I don't necessarily like this new procedure to prove patients are taking the medication and not selling it.
I was attempting to share with him how I just wish he could let all this stuff go. Let other's have their opinions. Enjoy his own space, his own place, his own choices, rather than feel angry that other's do not agree with his choices. I tried to share an example. . .and it did not work. I felt it caused him more frustration. Then he said, "I am just not connecting the dots between what you said and this current situation. What does one have to do with the other?"
And in that, exactly those words, I am realizing how our communication is so very complicated.
I would love to be able to talk - - - about what he likes and what I like. What he did and what I did. What he experienced and what I experienced. Us. What did we do. What can we do. How to make us better.
Certainly I do not agree with everyone. Certainly people do stuff that annoys me or ticks me off. Somewhere, somehow, I learned to shake it off, aand not let it ruin my day/week/month, and not let it become me, or change me, or even cause me to prove I am right and they are wrong. Maybe it is just my aging process/progress!!!
I know I have learned to' keep my power, not give it away to other people.' I so wish my spouse could have some part of that. It sure seems almost everyone and almost everything upsets him. I dream of so much better for him.
I am so over discussing the state of our communication. And the state of how our relationship is. It has lots of words. Devitalized. Dysfunctional. Disappointing. I no longer need anyone else to confirm it. I know it. Now that the diagnosis is confirmed, I want know how to adjust it to a peaceful place. It makes me angry to look at all the time, books, money and effort that I have used- - - -and none of the steps/plans have changed anything. It confirmed a lot. But that seems all. Well, I did change a whole lot. But, the affect my changes have on my marriage are not what I bargained for when I first started trying.
Sincerely,
Liz
" Then he said, "I am just
Submitted by dedelight4 on
" Then he said, "I am just not connecting the dots between what you said and this current situation. What does one have to do with the other?"
And in that, exactly those words, I am realizing how our communication is so very complicated."
Wow, this is so very familiar. It was hard for us also, trying to communicate, and both of us seemingly not understanding the other. It was crazy making I know for both of us.
I have learned so much from your posts, and admire the insights, development and challenges that you've struggled with, but have been so VERY transparent about. What a vulnerable thing to do, but it's admirable, and has been so helpful for many of us here. Thank You.
Dede
Coulda/Shoulda/Woulda and Don't/Won't/Can't
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
Dede,
You are welcome, and thank you for letting me know!
One thing that I am certain about - I am not alone. It is nice to know that sharing what I feel/think/do is helpful to others.
The technique I had used for a long time to resolve any conflicts I had with my spouse, the technique I purposed to do, the one I chose, was accommodating/smoothing. My reasoning was: I chose my spouse over the object of conflict. I believe what happened was that my spouse knew and became comfortable with my tendency, and then by the time I had my "A Ha" moment of it being way out of balance, it seemed it was set it stone that I cannot blast apart. Not to mention, my own' off-kilter self esteem' struggled to make any changes.
Then I went crazy trying to adjust/fix/change how I responded to conflicts. Each new technique failed to accomplish what I hoped. So, I withdrew for a while to gather my bearings. Then it was on to another.
I know I have withdrawn. And my focus has been on me. College. Spending time with my family. Scrapbooking - althought I don't afford myself much time, because studying/homework is ever present until graduation. LOL, I just realized I am 'pregnant' with graduation - it is in 9 months!!!!!!
Our relationship has evolved, and matured, and changed. The wall that is there between us is starting to be more annoying than it is serving its original purpose.
One positive for me is I have no other 'dream-man', I am not pining for anyone else, I have no desire for anyone else. I am not 'so lonely I am desperate for attention.'
A real issue for me is I am unwilling to accept that I need to let go of all my expectations. I do indeed have a lot of positive aspects in my marriage. The power of those positive aspects has me at the place I am. The reality is that my gratitude for those things does not make a marriage fulfilling. Is it guilt that keeps me here? Guilt is not a good motivator. Am I dependent on my spouse and that is what keeps me here? I have been unable to get close enough to our issues to resolve the conflicts. My approaches trigger anger - or at least what shows itself as anger - and thus no changes can be made. Is my emotional attachment a positive thing - or is it a negative thing? I really do not know. The passion certainly has been depleted. On the positive side, passion can be rekindled.
I have expressed my feelings in a variety of modes - exasperation - frustration - sadness - anger - plain facts - even hostility. I do not even feel the want to express myself. It feels as it would be yet another trip to futility island. A few years ago, the thought of my own apartment/house was a place to mentally escape when things got heavy.. Now, not so much. My long term happiness is valuable to me. It is important. It is something I do not want to ignore. At one time, I really did want to leave, but I knew I couldn't pull it off. Now, I do not want to - and I could pull it off!! Go figure.
What I know, it is love that keeps me turning over stone after stone after stone after stone.
I can readily/easily say my level of contentment/fulfillment is at an low, low ebb. Yet, at the same time, it is not discontentment.
Sincerely,
Liz
Liz, socialized medicine
Submitted by dedelight4 on
"My spouse went to his doctor's office to pick up a prescription refill script for his ADHD meds, and was instead handed a specimen cup. Seems he now has to prove his medication is in his system before they will refill it."
Not to get into a bunch of politics here, but with what the doctor is doing with the pee test is this Welcome to socialized medicine. This is now what our doctors demand from us as well, and it is part of the Obamacare system. Our doctors HATE IT, because also along with getting pee tested regularly, something ELSE is just as bothersome.
Instead of actually being EXAMINED by the Doctors, they sit and ask questions, and EVERY WORD that is said gets typed into the Obamacare I-Pad, and or recorded, There is NO MORE Doctor-Patient privilege, which I think is ABOMINABLE. Every question we ask is put it, and every word we say, as every BIT of information about us. We can't ASK a single question, or have the doctor TELL US ANYTHING without it being reported to the government. THIS is what the people didn't understand, when they said they wanted "health care". Socialized health care, means the government KNOWS EVERY SINGLE THING ABOUT YOU, and if the doctor doesn't report it, HE could get in trouble. I've learned A LOT the past couple of years dealing with this. OUR DOCTORS HATE THIS WITH A PASSION.
They don't even HAVE the time to spend touching our BODIES anymore, because they are too busy typing on their I-pads, with everything being spoken or suggested, NOTHING is private any more, IT IS SCARY. And, yes, because now the government, the IRS, and the insurance companies are ALL ONE UNIT, they can deny us ANY medication, tests, or treatments they want, if they don't feel we NEED it..............even IF the Doctor prescribes it. And yes, I have been turned down for things FROM THE INSURANCE COMPANY, who has nothing to do with my care, but it was due to the COST.
Plus, (if that isn't enough) My pee test was costing me 90 dollars every three months, which I paid. Now the government wants it every other month, but wants my insurance company to pay them on top of what I'M paying them.. I had to pay my share, and then the doctors office said the insurance company would send ME a check that I had to put in MY bank account, and then I had to pay the LAB from that. Guess what the bill was from the lab to my insurance company? it was $2400.00. FOR ONE PEE TEST. And that is supposed to happen every other month. I called my insurance company, the lab, and my doctor reporting this OUTRAGEOUS CHARGE. I couldn't get ANYONE TO LISTEN TO ME. The test is a simple test that reads the levels of what's in the urine by strips of paper. NOTHING ELSE is done to it, because I saw them do this in the doctor's office. HOW OUTRAGEOUS IS THIS? So, this is in part, why the prices of insurance have skyrocketed under Obamacare, which was SUPPOSED to be the AFFORDABLE care act, which it's not. Even the nurses in the doctors office couldn't afford the premiums on the ACA, and had to make other arrangements to get insurance, which was so basic, it wasn't worth much. It has been devastating in our area of Georgia.
I know this is a rant, but it's very pertinent right now to us, and for many reasons.
I'm so exhausted...this
Submitted by Zapp10 on
particular comment from this post of yours set me in motion......
"I was attempting to share with him how I just wish he could let all this stuff go. Let other's have their opinions. Enjoy his own space, his own place, his own choices, rather than feel angry that other's do not agree with his choices. I tried to share an example. . .and it did not work. I felt it caused him more frustration. Then he said, "I am just not connecting the dots between what you said and this current situation. What does one have to do with the other?"
And in that, exactly those words, I am realizing how our communication is so very complicated.
I would love to be able to talk - - - about what he likes and what I like. What he did and what I did. What he experienced and what I experienced. Us. What did we do. What can we do. How to make us better."
I could not get it out of my mind.....so that is where I have been.....praying, meditating, studying....AGAIN because of this nagging gut feeling there is more to "our" problem than Adhd.
My spouse is truly a good, caring, hard working, loves life person and I know he loves me. He has also, through the years, had many moments of behavior/ response that flat out stunned me. The adhd explains alot but not his demeanor/ countenance. The "light bulb" that is possible for those with Adhd to comprehend and learn how this effects them and those around them( I get some just don't want to) is, in my mind, "very doable" for both the adder and non. That is why I couldn't ignore the gut feeling. Why keep trying to address the adhd if there is something else going on? WHAT IS IT ABOUT MY H THAT I JUST CAN'T PUT MY FINGER ON?
There is behavior spoken of here(forum) that to me does not always fit with Adhd. Trying to address the Adhd is kind of mute if there are other issues INTERFERING. I have been diligent in my effort to figure out WTH is going on with my H and I. He is addressing the Adhd. He is still "prideful" about it but he is trying to make peace with it and that is ALL GREAT!!!! you would think.........sigh.
I am pretty sure that the "fly" in the ointment is aspergers. It EXPLAINS his behavior/ way of being far more than the adhd. Having them both? It makes the ADD seem like a mole hill.....
I would be curious if Melissa hasn't read posts that she suspects there is more than ADD involved....like Aspergers as it is so similar and often missed as a diagnosis and it is often co-morbid with ADD. I understand she cannot offer or suggest specifics........but I would bet she has a seasoned opinion she understandably keeps to herself.
You are in my thoughts Liz(your H,too).....our stories are SO similar.
One day, I would so love to
Submitted by vabeachgal on
One day, I would so love to have what you are describing. This is everything that is missing in my marriage. There's the small matter of these WALLS I've built lie by lie, broken promise by broken promise, and one minute of loneliness after another. Sigh. I don't know what it would take for the walls to come down. This is a legitimate question to myself. I don't know. I used to justify H's behavior with the thought "but he'll never hurt me." Then he did.
I've spent the last year literally raiding the house and getting rid of every.single.extraneous.thing. I'm not sure why I feel compelled to do this right now, I just do. It feels good to have space and breathing room.
I talk to one live person about all of this. She recently said, "You know, he's kinda checked off every what not to do in marriage box."
Someone else on the board posted something to the effect of "give her what she needs." That is a loving gesture. So many spouses don't do that.
But I digress. I still worry that my son, who does not have ADHD, has picked up some unfortunate ADHD behaviors based on proximity. I hope he doesn't find an enabler. I'm pretty honest, to a point, with my daughter about things now. She's old enough and had developed a keener insight than I ever gave her credit for. Neither child is inherently entitled to know everything about my personal life or my marriage. Right or wrong, I didn't tear down H in front of them. He showed me that respect. I returned it.
I refused to "protect" my H
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
I refused to "protect" my H from the truths of his actions and behaviors. When he behaved in a way that wasn't admirable or "parent-like" or worse, and our kids saw it, I would later discuss this with our kids and made sure they knew that that behavior was not to be emulated. I'm sure there are some parenting experts that would disagree with me because supposedly it "tore down" their dad in their eyes, but no way did I want them thinking that his behavior was OK or how a man should behave. I would point to the men in my family for them to use as role-models for how men should behave.
I don't agree with the idea of protecting "bad behaviors". My H has a brother who has never really worked more than a month or two at a time, and he goes very long periods of being unemployed. Currently, he hasn't worked in over 20 years. Everyone pretends it's ok. His wife has had to work more than full-time to support the family. And, she's also carried much of the home burdens. Their four kids have been badly hurt by this. They're all grown, but none are employed (ages 22-32...all college graduates). They never really learned a "work ethic" since there was a "theme" that existed in their home that, "if you don't want to work, you don't. Do what makes you happy." That's their motto...do what makes you happy. And for them, doing hobbies is more fun than work.
Thank you for all the
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
Thank you for all the comments. I haven't disappeared; I've been thinking a lot about this topic and about what people have written here. As some of you realize, whether to "normalize" behavior is not merely a retrospective issue; my ex-husband's behavior, then and now, continues to have effects on our daughters. And I continue to want to do what's best for them.
I dont know if my situation
Submitted by SpaceyStacey197... on
I dont know if my situation would really apply - but I can tell you for MYSELF - I feel better now that I am refusing to pretend how he acts is "normal" in any sense. I used to be accepting of the lies - just to move past things and have faith that he had learned from what ever the incident was and would not repeat it. But what i fool I was.
I have commited to live authentically. I no longer want to just accept the lies to keep the peace. And its hard, just the other day on my anniversary I swallowed a lie from him just so that I could avoid an argument with a man who has ALREADY SAID he didnt love me and wants a divorce. I mean - I weighed up pushing that I KNEW it was bullshit, or just saying that it didnt matter anyway since it was the last time we would ever be "celebrating" our wedding day. Of course, the reality is the last time we ever actually celebrated it was in 2013, on our second anniversary. Anyway, he likes to push on me about stuff, and I am learning to walk away. I dont know why he does it. I dont know why he likes to push me to explode about whats bothering me, when he will just clam up, withdraw and then later complain he cant handle it.
But I refuse to pretend its normal, or how people SHOULD behave. My situation is different in the sense that I am transitioning to a life with out him, so still kinda fueled by the anger and hurt of the lies, the manipulation, and the overall disrespect. In some ways, standing my ground and NOT accepting things as "normal" is therapeutic, but I have fallen into the trap that its been this way so long that it *IS* kinda normal. Thankfully, (and sadly) his daughter is so far removed from his daily life that she isnt exposed to a great deal of his disfunction, and his mother is very open about his struggles with her and has worked hard to ingrain good behaviors and ideals into her head as she raised her - so other than an essentially absentee father, his day to day issues arent going to affect her much. I hope at least... though I do fear the repercussions when she is older and wonder why he wasnt there more when he had all the opportunity in the world.
I have to take it day by day, and slowly take my stand, building up my strength and KNOWLEDGE to do it. Sometimes I cant even see when I am normalizing abnormal behavior, but when I do I try to correct as much as I can. And by correct, I just mean my response and my action/inaction. I try to be honest and authentic in my responses, and when its something I KNOW is wrong, but is going to lead to a fight, I try to head it off by just saying it doesnt matter anyway because we are nearing the end of this. So why keep fighting? Why keep bothering with it? He will never alter his perspective no matter how much I beg him to, and I have compromised so often and so much that I just CANT anymore. I have asked for so little and have set my expectations so low that I cannot do it anymore, and am slowly lifting that bar out of the dirt, and raising up my expectations again so that I can better refuse that unhealthy normalizing that goes on in relationships with untreated ADHD.
Personally speaking, I think its better to NOT pretend. To NOT normalize. I think honesty is the way to go - especially when kids are involved. I think knowing a parent has a wiring difference is key for them to be able to adapt to the parents behavior and NOT take it personally. I mean, if its a struggle as the significant other of a spouse with ADHD, how much harder is that for a kid who doesnt have the capacity, experience and understanding to not personalize the behavior? I think of it as a protection, that yes, mom or dad has this problem, it doesnt mean they dont love you - but sometimes they cant execute things as well as others. THis way they dont take it as a fault on themselves.
Your milage may vary :-)
Thank you, Stacey (and others
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
Thank you, Stacey (and others who've responded). Two things got me thinking about this topic again: it's the 20th anniversary of my husband being fired from his professional job; and my younger daughter is applying for graduate school. It occurred to me, not for the first time but with greater force than before, that my daughters do not remember that their dad ever had a professional job, for which he was paid a good salary and that his education prepared him for. Perhaps my younger daughter fears that if she doesn't go to or get into graduate school, her life will fall apart, as her father's did. Without the context that he has ADHD and didn't look for work and didn't get along with people, she might think that what happened to him is normal and what will happen to her. Even if she doesn't have this fear, I'm sure her and her sister's perfectionism and insecurity are exacerbated by the fact that one of their parents deserted them.