So once again the illogical nature of the ADHD brain shows itself. My 17 YO old son is in a weekend waterpolo tournament at a high school about 45 minutes away in no traffic. Last night DH drove out to the tourney at 5pm (cannot imagine what the traffic was like) even though our son was not playing in the games last night, which we knew ahead of time, Dear Son just has to be there to support his team. The tourney continues today and today our son will play in a few of the games through out the day. I am not going because I cannot sit in a hot pool all day waiting for the 45 seconds Dear Son will be wet. So I ask DH if he is going and he says no there is no reason to sit there if our son is not playing. Um....that is what you did last night??? So weird.
oh the illogic
Submitted by dvance on 04/23/2016.
I'm Trying to Understand this Too Dvance?
Submitted by kellyj on
Could it be he forgot or wasn't listening completely to when your son was actually playing? Then just jumped to the conclusion that he wouldn't be playing again since he didn't play the night before? Assuming? This doesn't sound like he was lying or trying to cover up for getting his days or nights confused....it sounds like he actually had it backwards in his head?
The reason I ask is that I had a realization not long ago.....that as long as I can remember....I have had cases where I reverse things like this namely....my "lefts" and "rights" and even though that seemed to diminish when I got older....I still catch myself getting turned around at times like this but not so much in the way you just described? What seems kind of obvious to me is that this seems more like dyslexia more than ADHD but I don't know enough about the that to make this determination? I'm wondering now if I'm not dyslexic to a certain degree myself?
The reason I think this is that I'm also ambidextrous to a certain degree and seem to have a lot of things I do (in a physical sense) that is ass backwards when I do things like:
Bowling.....I bowl "Brooklyn" style from the left to the right but I'm right handed?
Surfing and Skate Boarding.....I stand "goofy foot" with the normal front foot in the back?
I breathe naturally on my left in swimming instead of most people on the right naturally? Yet....I'm mostly right handed but can switch hands pretty easily? I have no idea if this is common with ADHD or not but when I read this I went.....mmmm? Could it be? I wonder now?
By the way....I played water polo throughout high school and then one year in college. Another place you use either hand to throw and catch interchangeably? It's certainly one of the roughest (and dirtiest ) sports I can think of. No other sport incorporates "cheating" ( fouling under water ) as an accepted part of normal play that I know of? It's also the only one where the ref can't actually see what's actually going on. If you only knew! lol I'm sure you've heard?
Good for your son for going after it....it's harder and more exhausting than soccer IMHO.
J
not trying to overthink but...
Submitted by dvance on
Oh I am not trying to overthink this, just another goofy thing I cannot figure out. This evening was Younger Son's Confirmation--mass started at 5pm. His sponsor and her wife met us there at 4:45. DH had driven his own car and parking was awful, so he got there about 5:20--not a big deal, I saved him a seat, parents have no part in the Confirmation itself, it's part of the regular mass. But he sits down and asks me if Younger Son's sponsor is there yet. Um...yes?? All the Confirmation kids and their sponsors sit together at the front of the church, so of course she would be there already. I said yes and left it alone, but geez--what IS that??? So odd to me what is retained and what is just not even heard. What exactly is the criteria for what is worthy of attention? I have really really stopped trying to figure it out in the past year and have let so much stuff just GO. Much much better for MY mental health. DH is so inefficient and self absorbed it really doesn't matter what I say or do at this point, so I gave up. When I am trying to figure him out more than he himself cares to figure him out, that seems to be a problem!
I always appreciate your insights--you are truly thoughtful about your own brain and you explain yourself well. Thank you for that--
dv
For What It's Worth.... Dvance
Submitted by kellyj on
When I said I was trying to understand this too.....I was in complete agreement with you. I'm not saying that with any defense on my part in what I was saying....I REALLY mean it! lol The absence of logic in is his statement to you had me scratching my own head going......"Huh? lol
And I understand not needing to try and figure this out because I think you're wasting your time as well! lol If he's not paying attention to this or not aware enough to realize which "world" he's in at the time.....he's not going to respond with anything that makes any sense if it's coming from the "world inside his head" and not the one that you inhabit! lol Good luck with that! :)
I took a snippet from an article written by a woman with ADHD that I think might sum this up and help explain this better. Not so much for you as you said....but if someone else with ADHD reads this...it might get them to see it too? I'm very aware of that "world inside my head" and I'm doing my best to make sure which world I'm in before I access my thoughts and open my mouth! lol The trick is.....being aware of it in the first place....once you can do that....it seems like it's all down hill from there (in the fight against the "now..."not now" phenomenon). I think the "now..not now"..."hyper focus"...."being scattered"....or what ever you want to call it....all comes from living inside your head for too long.....and not in the real world instead.
If only I had a "Clapper" for my head...."clap on"...."clap off " (the "clapper")......wouldn't that be nice for you to have if they made such a thing? lol Or one of those dog training "clickers" that did the same thing? LOL I'm making my stomach hurt from laughing so hard just so you now! LOL!!!!
Ironically....they say people with ADHD tend to "live in the moment"...which sounds confusing with "being present" since they kind of sound related? They're related all right....it's just a matter of determining "which world your in" at any given time! lol "In the moment" is the one inside our heads...."being present" is the world you inhabit most of the time! lol That's the one where logic and reason seem to come from as well! lol
(I've got to stop thinking about you sitting there with a dog clicker in your hand and using that on your H right now or I think I'm going to pee myself from laughing so hard!! lol Entertaining myself does appear to be one of the few side benefits of that world inside your head :)
"Do you live in your head? I know I do. Or do you think that’s a crazy question? Actually I think a lot of ADDers live in their heads.
By living in your head, I mean that you spend a lot of your time thinking, analyzing every moment as it’s happening. You spend time at a party or a networking event going over and editing everything you say and do before you say or do it. In fact, you spend so much time in your head that you’re not really there. You never get to really know people and actively participate because that voice in your head won’t let you.
Living in your head is the reason why you forget or misplace things, why you miss snippets of conversation, and why people might think of you as spacey.
I think that as ADDers, we live in our head because we feel the need to constantly monitor ourselves and our behavior. We trying so hard to avoid making a mistake, saying the wrong thing or looking foolish that we miss much of what’s going on around us.
So what can you do? Well I’ve got a few ideas.
First, remind yourself to be present whenever you think of it. Being present means to focus in and see what’s going on around you."
PS...."OR..... get yourself a dog clicker and give it to your spouse. lol "
J
The things we wish we understood
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
dvance,
When I am trying to figure him out more than he himself cares to figure him out, that seems to be a problem!
I can see how this exact idea causes relationship issues. It surely does for me. It comes across and feels as there is no trust for anyone else. It feels like being micro-managed all the time. It is not pleasant.
I tell this following story as as sample of several aspects my life. It is one incident. It is a reality. It is not a harbored grudge. With good communication, these things can be calmed. With feelings of trust that another person is doing their assigned job, there is no need to worry.
Our daughter had a country casually-elegant wedding. During the reception, my spouse came to me and said we were almost out of pop, so I went and checked our stock. We had loads of pop. Cases and cases of 24 packs in the refrigerators and stacked under the cooler table in the church hall where we held the reception. Dinner was over, and we still had about 2-3 cans for every man, woman, child, and infant still there, so. . . yep, plenty. My spouse insisted there was not enough and he needed to get more. He said he looked, and I was mistaken, we were almost out. So, he left our daughter's wedding reception to make a pop-run to the grocery store.
1. Our daughter did not want him to leave the reception.
2. I did not want him to leave - and was trying not to feel angry because he was insisting I was mistaken on the pop inventory. The only flavor we were low on was root-beer. But we had lots and lots of cans of other flavors.
3. My brother did not want him to miss any part of the reception, so he volunteered to go. He said the parents of the bride and groom were just as much part of the honorees at the wedding,and they should enjoy the festivities.
My spouse left to go buy more pop.
He didn't want my brother, an invited guest, to be inconvenienced. He said it would be a quick trip, so he wouldn't miss anything.
I was disappointed he missed some the reception events. Our daughter was disappointed he had to leave and wouldn't let her uncle help out so her Daddy could remain at the reception.
In the end, it appears he didn't realize the pop out of sight, behind the table skirt of the cooler table, and he only looked in one refrigerator. There we three refrigerators that held the pop.
So, in the end, we almost ran out of root-beer, he wanted to get the pop, so he went and got the pop. And we had enough cans of pop to last for a very long time after the reception. It did not go to waste. He did what he had to do.
In some ways for me, it is nice to feel taken care of - - yet in other ways, it is not very comfortable to feel micro-managed and walked over. I have tried a myriad of ways to just let-it-go.
I have realized there is more to just-let-go-of-it than I am willing to release. It steps right into feeling controlled.
Without a doubt, my spouse's feeling were valid. The relationship problem comes when they seem to become paramount over my feelings.
That is the place I am at during this current time. I feel as there is no room for me and my ideas and my opinions and my input. When we try couple counseling, I again feel unheard, and I feel my spouse trying to convince me my feels are invalid. . . .or his are more valid. . . . . . .or he pulls other situations into the discussion that really attempt to get the focus off the subject at hand. It works every time. And I am so over it.
I do not like it. I no longer wish to participate in that sort of thing.
And I do not. I had to pull back. My sanity and sense of well-being really and truly cannot handle it anymore.
Liz
Liz--I understand fully the
Submitted by dvance on
Liz--I understand fully the sentiment that your sanity and sense of well being cannot handle it any more. That is the main reason why I cannot think about the truly illogical things DH says and does. And the arrogance of my thinking he SHOULD be doing things my way. He is a 47 year old man who is free to do whatever he pleases. The problem occurs when what he pleases costs money or time for the rest of us. If it's only him, why should I care?? Other examples: for his job, we bought him a really nice expensive Timbuk2 messenger bag--he was there, he picked it out, it fits his laptop and iPad, both of which he uses when he is at a property (he is a facilities manager with about 35 properties in his portfolio). It's waterproof, has a special padded laptop sleeve--you get the idea. He used it for about a month and then decided that he preferred a junky, cheap looking backpack from Target that DOES NOT fit his laptop and so he has to carry YET ANOTHER laptop bag. Now, perhaps the other bag really didn't work, I don't know but why would you want something cheap and junky looking over something age appropriate and of good quality? So now he is dressed in business casual...wearing a backpack that looks like a 12 year old should have it. I really have no explanation and he looks ridiculous. Ditto clothes--he often works from home so who cares what he wears. But...at Christmas he said he might like some more long sleeve casual, working at home tops. I bought him 4. He has never worn them. In fact, two I took back just to see if he would notice and he never did. Instead he wears these ugly black fleece things he gets at Walmart, three sizes too big. He buys 2XL and I can tell you he is NOT a 2XL and again he looks ridiculous. BUT...back to the earlier statement--he is a grown man who is free to dress however he wants and carry his business stuff in whatever he wants and it is only my opinion that he looks ridiculous. It is my own arrogance that thinks my way is better and I know that is not true. So I observe and briefly note that DH looks silly or does not care for the things I buy him so I stop buying him things or caring what he looks like. Which is a good way to cut down on marital strife, but seems like a weird way to have a partnership, you know? I am not explaining it well--it's just another thing that drops away--looking nice, caring how you look for the other person. When we are out in public together, I may be embarrassed by how he looks, but I let it go. I have to consciously and actively make myself NOT CARE. I have been practicing this for a while now, so it's much easier. By and large I don't even click on what he looks like at home or when he goes to work--not my problem. I am only using these as examples of yet another way communication/style/expectations go away. By the same token, he does not say anything about what I wear one way or the other. If he notices, I don't know it. And again, I no longer care. Gone are the days of dressing up for YOUR PERSON, or going to work knowing you look put together and your person said so on your way out the door. Again, I have trained myself to not need that. I am a grown woman, I can look in the mirror and see that I look nice. Two weeks ago my school had our fancy fundraiser and I was texting my girlfriends pictures of dresses to get their opinions. That night I got dressed and went (no administrators husbands attend, so it wasn't just him that wasn't going). He said nothing about my great dress and heels, I have no idea if he figured it was new, or old, or what. No idea. So again, another connection drops away. Finally getting it through my head that his world and mine have very little in common is very very liberating but makes for a quiet house! And it feels very lonely. And I worry that when our marriage finally is able to end, I will not be able to be with someone in any kind of real way. If I have trained myself to not need any feedback from DH, how would that work with another person who IS logical and thoughtful and pay attention?? Could I even do that? If I get hungry for it, I go to friends or remind myself that I don't really need someone to tell me I look nice, so grow up! How do normal couples do that?
Liz....What You Said Here is Right to the Heart
Submitted by kellyj on
No one likes feeling "over written"...no one. What is most important? Being right or "over writing" someone even if they're wrong or are not seeing something or feel differently about anything than you? Compromising means.....giving up a little to get a lot in return. Over writing another person does not do this and only makes you feel dismissed.
What's the worst thing that can happen? This is what I always' try and ask myself? "Let's see....if I don't go get pop....someone might not have that third of fourth pop to drink?" Or....."If I stay here and be part of a one time event like this and be with my daughter as she requests....the person who didn't get that last pop might have to drink water instead?" Mmmmm....???? How bad could that possibly for that guest? If they think less of me because I didn't get enough root beer.....what's the reason they're there in the first place? To drink root beer....or celebrate my daughter wedding?"
"What ever they might think about not having enough root beer on hand.....there is something more important going on here...right now....in this very moment? I think my guest will have to just get over that instead of my wife and daughter?" How's that for a compromise?
I'm not saying I always do this every time.....but this is what I have to stop and do if I don't keep going on the first thing that crosses my mind. Having ADHD means....doing this and stopping yourself to be more aware of these things. It takes some effort and practice....but it can be done with awareness of it....that's the bottom line.
J
Everything in balance
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
J,
Anyone can deal with on occasional situation that is off kilter or out of balance.
I have said it before - - -when my spouse and I agree - it is GOLDEN.
For me, the things we do not agree on, have become overwhelmingly frustrating.
Previously, I just backed away from things. I lowered my expectations. Almost happened again last weekend.
I can literally SEE how difficult it is for my spouse to participate/engage/do something with which he does not agree. I have great empathy for that situation. Yet, not enough to allow it to rule our relationship. Have I seen him TRY to do things the way I want? Sure. It is like watching a pot slowly coming to a boil. Sooner or later, he blows his cork.
To clarify, there are many things on which we can agree. Many. Yet, my giving up the ghost on the things I feel very strongly about- - - - -feeling as the choice is his way or living with an angry man - - - - - well, it really has cost me too much. Now it feels as he is angry I don't want to give up everything so he won't be angry. Craziness.
If his peace costs Liz hers, the price is just too high.
Very truly,
Liz
J, I love what you're doing
Submitted by dedelight4 on
J, it is so encouraging to hear you say "it CAN change if you work at it". (Paraphrased) It's incredibly interesting how you daily work at trying to keep your thoughts focused, and work at re-training learned patterns and behaviors. It must be challenging to always trying to be conscious of what your brain just "normally" wants to do. I highly commend your continued efforts in this. I would so love it, if my husband could even come to a small fraction of what you are doing. Keep up the good work.
Just So You Know.....Dede and Liz
Submitted by kellyj on
The learning curve in this is very, very steep at first. I think it takes many attempts at not going any where for a while...to ever get off the ground (or ...on the ground in this case? lol ) It is a daily thing...all day long....every day. But it gets easier the more you do it.....that's the good news. The bad news is that it never ends but....you get use to that too. After a while.....you start to do it automatically and when that happens...it's just part of everything you do and is no longer such a big deal. The biggest problem and obstacle in the way of this is how other people respond to it especially at first when you are spending so much effort...with little to show for it. Those demands of every day life along with the added pressure and combined with the frustration and failure at first is enough to make you quit and never try again. But trying again is exactly what you need to do and keep trying. Persistence is the key....not how many times you fail is irrelevant.
Liz for you....to a certain degree.....you need to do this too I think. Learning to live with your husband being mad or angry....is something you can learn to do in the same way. You can't do anything about that in him.....but you can get past his moods and ups and downs by not letting that effect you. This is your challenge as it was for me. I am equally susceptible to other peoples anger and never use to be Okay if I knew someone was angry with me while sitting in the same room with them. This I can tell you.....you can get past and get over in the same way. Once you do....it won't bother you nearly as much and you won't react to it which only adds fuel to the fire for your H when that happens. By not reacting and not doing anything.....those moments will pass and nothing will be become it. The time it takes to get pass these moments...will get less and less until one day...it won't take any time at all and they will pass as soon as they begin no matter what your H does during that time. It works in the same way and it happens just as I said. It takes practice and effort but you can un-train yourself from being effected by your H's anger what so ever and it works exactly as I just stated. That's when you will no longer be a victim ( or at the hands of ) your h's anger and you will be in control of yourself ( your emotions) and the situation I guarantee it. At that point....it will hardly phase you....like an annoying fly buzzing in your ear:)
J
We all have choices
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
J,
If this were a Dad, or a Grampa, or a Brother-in-Law,or an Uncle, learning to live with it would be a plan. Because I would eventually go home, or they would go home. This is a man who I live with every day of my life. I no longer want to learn how to put up with it. I see it differently - as that ol' purple elephant in the room that we all must learn to pretend does not exist. If this was my first attempt at a new behavior, it would be worth a try. It is not. Been there. done that. Not on your life. I do not want to just smoozh it over. My choice. Not on your life. I am not that person, not that much of a Super Woman. Stubborn? Nope. Decisive? You bet. If a fly was buzzing in my ear, I would smoosh it.
Very truly,
Liz
Your the Best Judge of Yourself... Liz
Submitted by kellyj on
You know the score and your own situation.....you need to do what you need to do and only you know what that is:)
You Bet J, You Bet!!!
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
J,
There are some things I hold on to with absolute comfort. Not hostility. Not angry attitude.
This for sure is one of them. Choices. We all get to make them. I did. No one person has the right to monopolize the harmony.
With sincerity,
Liz
If you NEED him to change...
Submitted by Delphine on
...that is a form of "addiction." Rather than being addicted (insistent) that someone or something be a certain way, we can loosen up a bit, and still have our preferences, while letting go of how things play out.
Here are some quotes about Ken Keyes Jr's book, The Conscious Person's Guide To Relationships:
http://eqi.org/books2.htm#A%20Conscious%20Person%27s%20Guide%20to%20Rela...
He defines addiction as something we believe we must have to be happy. Also, it is an emotion-backed demand, model or expectation. Example, if I get upset when I am waiting for you, I am in touch with my addiction to not waiting. (or my unmet need for patience, acceptance-- or to my inability to occupy myself in a worthwhile way)
He says an addiction automatically creates our unhappiness when the world is not fitting our emotion-based models of how things should be. "Conscious growth involves upleveling addictions to preferences-- so that life situations do not trigger upsetting, separating responses."
"Addictions create feelings of separation and unhappiness; preferences never do."
"You make yourself unhappy -- but you create feelings inside you that the world is making you unhappy."
"A preference is a desire that does not make you upset if it is not satisfied."
"The number and strength of your addictions is far more important in creating your happiness or unhappiness than who you are with."
Still working with this myself. I do see progress.
Delphine
Subtle Differences
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
Delphine,
Over the past year, I have stepped way far back and am looking at the full picture of my life. We all have flaws and idiosyncrasies that are intrinsic parts of who we are.
Accepting a persons flaws is a far cry from working through difficulties.
Or having a clear boundary about something that is not pleasant, and a person wants to address.
Wanting to have a voice, wanting to feel heard, and wanting to have some things the way I want them, just because that's the way I want them . . . . I do not see that as any sort of addiction.
We all have choices to be made. I need to do what feels comfortable, and kind, and warm, and right. Not selfish. Not saying yes because I am afraid to say no. Not going against my conscience. Not agreeing to something just because I cannot find the correct words to explain myself.
Not being stubborn. I spent a lot of time as a participant of this forum being angry, and fearing loss. I no longer have the fear of being seen as a failure if my marriage crumbles. I no longer have the fear of being judged as the woman who could not keep her husband happy.
Being part of relationship that is not working is not at all about assigning blame. I surely have emerged. I surely have developed into a confident person. I have grown and matured, and no longer fit into the spot I was when I got married. I am not saying I have outgrown my marriage- - - -I am saying my marriage has to grow and develop and mature and change for it to be comfortable/pleasant and with fewer warning signs than I feel and see.
I am comfortable with me. I do not need my spouse to complete me. I do need my spouse to want to compromise and cooperate to the satisfaction of both of us.
Liz
Distinctions
Submitted by Delphine on
Liz, I totally get the reasonableness of your wishes. All I am saying is that if your happiness and well-being is contingent on your partner changing, this is
a very vulnerable place, because he may or may not do so. Having had an ADHD mother, been in relationship with an ADHD guy before (son's father) and
mother of an ADHD son, this lesson has been well and truly driven home for me.
To be clear, addiction in this sense is only about emotion-backed demands. Ken Keyes Jr., author of that book I mentioned, advises upleveling your emotion-backed
demands to preferences. If you prefer something to happen, and it doesn't, you can say, "drat, oh well" and move on. If you insist on it, this sets you up for disappointment and frustration. It puts you in the martyr/victim role, rather than being sovereign.
I like this from Melody Beattie:
“Letting go helps us to to live in a more peaceful state of mind and helps restore our balance. It allows others to be responsible for themselves and for us to take our hands off situations that do not belong to us. This frees us from unnecessary stress.”
Take care, Liz...
Delphine
husband runs to just "run"
Submitted by dedelight4 on
My husband has done this, but with him its usually an "anxiousness", and needing to "get away" from people. When we were first married, and asked to dinner parties or church events my husband would literally stand behind me like a little child "hiding". Then continually ask me, "Can we go home yet"? We had only been there a short time before he would start asking me this. So sometimes I would give in and say "okay, lets go, to his relief". But then on the way home, he would complain, "No one even TALKED to me". But he didnt make himself available to GET talked to.
I noticed many times when he was nervous around people, or even jittery and nervous at Home, he had to "run" somewhere. I think his inability to socialize with people when he "should", or has opportunities to do so, makes him freak out. His hyperactivity and/or flight or flight takes over. Not sure which.
husband doing similar things.
Submitted by dedelight4 on
I can't tell you how many times my husband has done this. (Especially this past year) He goes to events and finds out he's a week early or a week (oin the right" day) late
This happens with doctor appts As well, even though he puts reminders in his phone. He goes to places where he is supposed to play drums and gets there late. But before that for days, and weeks ahead of time he is obsessively talking about it. Almost non-stop. The conversations go like this, "I have to play Monday night, but I have to leave early to get there in time. I just hope there arent any major accidents along the way. There are accidents all the time, I just am afraid I'm going to get tied up in one." This will get repeated several times a day until Monday comes. Monday gets here, and the time for him to leave is already past, so he's running out the door, "omg, I'm going to be late, there better not be any accidents". I know he's going to drive like crazy trying to get there. (Its only been by the grace of God that he hasnt CAUSED any accidents by driving crazy. He already weaves across the lines without being in a rush, which gets worse when he's late.
It gets disconcerting when he does certain things that are opposite of what he says he's going to do. And then will deny saying or doing what he did. It can get mind "freaky" at times. But because my husband has such a high IQ, he thinks he's always "in the right".
My DH never remember what he
Submitted by dvance on
My DH never remember what he says or what I said or what anyone said. It is a big mind freak--I start to think I am the crazy one. I swear I am going to start to record conversations if only to prove to myself that I am not hearing voices. It's pretty ridiculous to hear myself get into those "yes you said blah blah"--"no I didn't" conversations so now I just let it go. The minute he starts to argue, I just give it up. Because really who cares. I have nothing to gain by brow beating him into seeing things my way. If he doesn't remember my getting upset isn't going to magically make the info reappear in his brain and if he does remember but is being a jerk, then my getting upset will surely cement that attitude, so either way I am screwed. Best to keep quiet.
A friend of mine going through a nasty divorce 4 years ago told me that she quit pushing back with her ex because if there is nothing for them to push against they will HAVE to stop pushing--if there is no resistance, what's the fun in pushing??