In our culture, there is a certain financial expectation for adult men living in a committed relationship. When that is disturbed, it seems that serious household dysfunction nearly always follows.
When men have ADHD, anxiety, depression, PDs, bi-polar, or other issues that prevent them from being consistently employed or self-employed with earnings that adequately support him and at least a fair-share of the household, there seems to also be a common theme of anger, money mismanagement, procrastination, impulsivity, mistreatment towards their wives/GFs who are supporting the household and doing nearly everything. The wives/GFs are naturally annoyed that the household burdens are unfairly falling on their shoulders, sometimes completely.
I have only known one instance where such a man did not display anger or disrespect for his wife and is very good with money and somewhat took care of the children. He did cook and clean, but his inability to socialize outside the home, and his lack of emotion (aspie maybe?) and periodic procrastination, would occasionally cause troubles. The troubles were minimal enough that the high-earner wife has chosen to just accept these things as a minor, but livable, flaws.
I would suggest that this man's ability to control his temper, relatively good home-management, and his excellent money management have been his main saving graces. From what I have gathered, he has social anxiety, some depression, and maybe some schizoid PD or schizoid-typal PD. He is extremely cynical and somewhat paranoid. He has never had a friend. He is married to the only person he ever dated; the result of a blind date set up by his sister. He is highly educated, so he was able to succeed in that area. He is fine to talk to in his home. I have had numerous conversations with him.
However, the fact that his high-earner lawyer wife has the type of job that includes a certain amount of socializing, it has been an issue that her H will not come with her ~ somewhat due to his social-anxiety, but really mostly due to the fact that people are naturally going to ask him, "What do you do for a living." He is able to travel, and they do take two luxury vacations each year. I think he's able to do that because there are few opportunities for people to ask him questions about what he does.
Now, getting back to the more typical situations where the man isn't regularly employed, has anger, procrastination, extremely annoying habits, etc....
The dignity that comes from being the "breadwinner" or at least a "fair share" contributor cannot be underestimated for males in the western culture, and probably other cultures as well. Most men "know" that they are judged by what they do for a living, how much they earn, and how they provide for their families.
I think that men who become essentially "moochers" in their homes "know" that they're not living up to the expectations of our cultures definition of how men should be. I think that this realization manifests itself in increased anger, resentment directed at their wives/GFs, and so forth.
I think that much of the anger that is directed at their wives/GFs is some kind of projected anger or is some kind of reflexive anger because these men "know" that their wives are "doing the man's job" while also often doing the "woman's job, and that their wives are likely disgusted by the situation. So, instead of responding by living up to the culture's and their wives' expectations, they rage and insult their wives for being the constant reminder of their own shortcomings - even if the wives are nearly silent martyrs. These wives don't really need to say much to their husbands, the guilt is going to be there regardless.
Of course, many wives aren't probably silent martyrs and probably do occasionally express dissatisfaction in their husbands. Any justified complaints often get discounted or twisted, and the wife is often told that she's being a nag or worse.
It is one thing when a mentally-stable man stays home to truly manage the household and children because the wife's job pays enough to support this family composition and role-switch. I have seen a few (very few) instances where this has worked well. The men in these instances are very hands-on parents, and probably more in touch with their "feminine side" (I don't mean that disparaging), because perhaps they were raised in a household where they did a fair amount of household chores, took care of younger siblings, planned and executed organized plans, etc. However, since our culture tends not to raise young men to be "caretakers" of young children or households, many men cannot fill this role very well.
It's also another thing when an otherwise healthy, working man becomes seriously ill (cancer, stroke, etc) and suddenly cannot contribute. This discussion isn't concerned with cases like that.
For women who are in extremely annoying or verbally/emotionally/physically abusive situations where they are wondering whether things will get better, I can only conclude, "no." Mild annoyances can be tolerated. We all are mildly annoying to some extent. But, anger issues and job instability are issues that likely rarely get better to the point that these people are tolerable to live with for long periods of time.
My own mentally-unstable H is somewhat of an exception because although he has many of the uglier aspects of ADHD, depression, anxiety, PDs, addictions, etc, after he finished grad school he was blessed to land in a well-paid profession that worked well with his strengths and where his weaknesses were long kept under-wraps. It was only after 25-30 years that his job changed, and then the "fit" was no longer a good one, and many of the instabilities often mentioned here came out...missing work, confrontations with fellow employees, anger at bosses, unreliable worker, etc. Luckily, these things only came to a head after he had 30+ years in his career and was able to retire comfortably. Obviously, if his job had been a poor fit from the beginning, or had become a poor fit midway in his career, the results would have been disastrous.
Thankfully, H was always able to hold on to his dignity that he had a very long and stable work history, was well-respected in his field, was promoted regularly, and made a high income. Although his behaviors got steadily got worse at home, particularly when his job was no longer a good fit, most of the outside world was unaware of what was going on. During the last several years, he began drinking more and more, mismanaging meds, and became near suicidal towards the end of his career as the changes in his job exposed some of his most vulnerable areas.
I grew up in the 60's and 70s. I never knew ANY fathers, living in the family household who didn't work full-time and fully support their families. I grew up in a good-sized city, a good-sized neighborhood, had a good-sized extended family, and belonged to a large church, so I knew hundreds and hundreds of families. I only knew of 2 families where the dads had abandoned the families. Likely, these men would be the ADHD men that we see written about today in this forum. I can only guess, since I don't know if after they left if they were regularly employed or not. I only know that the moms single-handedly had to raise the family - no support, no visitation, nothing. Again, all the fathers who lived IN THE HOUSEHOLDS were all fully employed. Some may not have been high wage-earners, but they all worked full-time. It was an expectation. I suspect that the 2 families that I was aware of, had husbands/fathers who were either too unstable to work (ADHD? alcoholism?) and they were not permitted to stay in the home or they took off on their own to get away from society's and their family's expectations.
I can only assume that back then, a man would not have been permitted to just "sit on a couch" all day, watching TV (no video games back them) and not bringing home a regular paycheck.
Something seems to have changed. There was a time, it seems, that women would not have tolerated having husbands who didn't work regularly, or at least honestly attempt to work regularly. Sitting around all day on the couch would not have been an option.
I'm not saying that things were perfect back then, hardly. There were still alcoholics, abusive behaviors, cheating, etc, but there just didn't seem to be as many "unemployed or under-employed male couch potatoes" in family households.
Thoughts?
Morals or down and excuses have increased....
Submitted by c ur self on
Here's a few things I see....
How women are viewed (and how many view themselves) in our culture is a big part of the problem...Many men are a bigger problem for how they view their wives with disrespect and are sorry enough to free load of them....Some of the things you've named like add/adhd, bi-polar etc...Never use to keep men from working and supporting there families...If a man or women has the ability to walk around, drive around deal with children and the day to day responsibilities of life...They can work!...It's not about the money or type job, it's about faithfulness to be responsible to your commitments....A person who would judge someone based on what they do for a living is a shallow immature individual....But sadly pride can and does effect us....being human and all:)
A man who want work, shouldn't eat!
C
You're right. Something has changed....
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
<< Some of the things you've named like add/adhd, bi-polar etc...Never use to keep men from working and supporting there families...If a man or women has the ability to walk around, drive around deal with children and the day to day responsibilities of life...They can work!...It's not about the money or type job, it's about faithfulness to be responsible to your commitments...<<<
I agree.
I wonder if the "old way" of having young men work around the family farm or in the family business, starting at a very young age, where there was no time to be such "goof offs," was a "cure" for what we're seeing today.
My own dad began working in his dad's business at a very young age, helping stock the shelves. There was an understanding that if everyone didn't work, there wouldn't be food on the table.
Probably "being sent to bed without supper," was the old way of correcting laziness or the lazy-appearing behaviors that we see today.
I know that in my H's family, the parents had few expectations for their kids, except to "do well" in school. The children weren't expected to do many chores, they weren't expected to help their dad with his business, and they were allowed to watch an unbelievable amount of TV. Their mother was very permissive and indulging.
Stigma's are Down..Personal Freedoms Are Up
Submitted by kellyj on
Another way of reiterating what you just said C. If you take away controls....people have more choices and freedom....never a bad thing but there is always a cost associated with freedom. Nature abhors a vacuum. Remove the controls and stigma's and you are going to change the dynamic...... and people in general will usually default to the lowest common denominator and the path of least resistance if there is nothing in place to motivate them to be different.
J
PS....remember....you cannot create or destroy energy.....it has to go somewhere?
Well spoken J
Submitted by c ur self on
Without self inflicted controls to go along w/ spiritually alive guidance, that produces attributes like self-discipline, convictions, & self-control....then this freedom and path of least resistance you speak of, is a path a wise man or women will avoid:)....Because every time energy is spent out of a human who's mind is resting in this freedom without controls....Displacement of the residual always seems to make a strait line right to someone with controls...(See how that works?) Based on this forum and the events of my life, many of us haven't mastered staying a safe distance from the fallout yet...Ha Ha!
Those who live in this manner remind me other energy producers w/o controls....Like earthquakes, tornados, Hurricanes..:)....Quick head for the storm shelter....
C
Remove the controls and stigmas and you are going to change the
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
>>Remove the controls and stigmas and you are going to change the dynamic..<<
And I think that's what's going on. When we read about these men who haven't held regular jobs, and who are often just parked in front of the TV or video game ~ and in some cases spending money on frivolous things, it has to be that the "controls" and "stigmas" have been removed.
I Wrote a Fair Bit
Submitted by kellyj on
about being abused as a child. My parents were not horrible people....they had their problems and they spilled onto me. My father as much as he was a Narc and that had it's problems for me.....neither one had the wrong idea and fundamentally....were operating of some sound principles. It's only useful for me to go back now and correct the parts that affected me negatively. That's the only purpose for me to focus on these things at the time being but I am long past the point of forgiving them both for being as ignorant as I was. They may have been strict.....but that in and of itself is not a bad thing. It just wasn't tempered and off set very well with enough positive reenforcement to be done very well. So they flunked in that department. Get over it and move on. Those controls were enough to make the difference later and I was capable enough myself to see the difference and separate the wheat from the chaff.
Back then.....all I needed was a bicycle and I was good to go. I didn't spend hours in front of the TV and we invented some creative (not always legitimate ha ha) entertainment and socialized and interacted with other people. If things got broken....you had to learn how to fix them because you were getting a new one if you were careless and didn't take care of things.
One of my more memorable mishaps occurred when a friend and I decided to bombard one the neighbors houses with apples off a tree. (the weird cat lady who yelled at you for stepping on her lawn and would watch you behind her curtains lol ) I wasn't getting enough distance in my trajectory so I picked up a good sized rock and proceeded to send it right through her huge rear living room window. Uh oh....gotta go!!! Anyway....this window cost my parents $80 at the time which would be the equivalent of several hundreds of dollars now. My father said "well....I guess you know how you will be spending your summer vacation from school? Yep. I sure did....and it took me that long to pay every penny of it back to them. I think I was around 11 or 12?
I learned a valuable lesson from this and one I will always remember.....never use a rock when an apple will do! lol
I also had to walk 10 miles in driving snow storms with scraps of paper tied to my feet to get to school each day.......ha ha
J
Consequences for bad behaviors.
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
>>> Anyway....this window cost my parents $80 at the time which would be the equivalent of several hundreds of dollars now. My father said "well....I guess you know how you will be spending your summer vacation from school? Yep. I sure did....and it took me that long to pay every penny of it back to them. I think I was around 11 or 12?<<<
You received a discipline, a fair one, and you remembered and learned from it. Your parents were able to assign that punishment and you had to accept it.
However, in marriages, one spouse can't (and shouldn't) be assigning punishments. If you're married to a person who never learned those valuable lessons as a child, you (the spouse) can't teach them to them.
No OWW we cannot....
Submitted by c ur self on
But then I don't have to either...Because just as sure as the Sun comes in the morning, and Sets in the Evening...."All of us will "Reap what we Sow"...No way out of that...Except those things that are under the blood....
C
The Million Dollar Question OW
Submitted by kellyj on
However, in marriages, one spouse can't (and shouldn't) be assigning punishments. If you're married to a person who never learned those valuable lessons as a child, you (the spouse) can't teach them to them.
BINGO!!!! You nailed it. I'm going to take an unpopular position here for minute and say a couple things from an opposing point of view.....a more stereotypical male one. If you don't think I think along these lines it's not true. I do. But I also grant myself enough capacity to see the other side and be balanced too. I grew up in a female dominated environment and I think it is really interesting when you get caught in the middle. Women have said "oh , you are so in touch with your female side" as a compliment. I've come to learn that this is a real source for trouble and even though it may be complimentary...what it's really saying is "oh, you think like me and I like that about you. What I've come to learn there is that thinking like you in this case usually means that they don't think like guys or have that capacity. I've been smacked in the face with that one a number of times when I also think like a guy and am also being myself in that way too. "Oh...I was wrong about you (the assumption) you don't think like me after all you Neanderthal!" You can't win for losing there....might as well throw in the towel!. lol
The reason I am saying this is from my own experience. Somehow....I managed to make most of my friends with people who were or are from male dominated households. A few of them had sisters that I got to know as well as them and there is a qualitative difference in how those women think and react to the same Neanderthal mentality. lol I've come to see the same thing in women who grew up in households with lots of brothers and started out as Tom Boys more than the other way around. Their tolerance level to base behavior and mentality has the same humor about it as guys have and in my own experience with my own sisters for example ( the opposing experience )....seems to leave them drawing a blank or not getting the punch line or worse....looking at you like there is something wrong with. you. I definitely learned to play both sides of the fence and can back and forth as necessary because I understand it.....but in the reality of the situation....I'm pretty much a man and know which is which. lol
FYI; I still have a visceral negative reaction to the color "pink". My mother painted everything in our house that color. Yuck!!!!!! lol
Anyway.....I have noticed something along these lines with my wife and it has become really obvious to me. She grew up with a dominant mother figure and her tolerance and patience for anything outside of this is limited along with her capacity to see outside of it. I say this saying I can see both side and she cannot many times. It makes her very self righteous and indignant at times and I can clearly see the same attitudes emerging in her as they did at my house growing up but even to a greater extent. My father was the supreme being in our household but was completely indifferent to the things my mother wanted so at least in my mothers case. She was free to sprinkle feminine fairy dust all over the place at will and my father seems not to care since it just wasn't that important to him. If it was and he was the least inconvenienced by this.....he most definitely would have said so in no uncertain terms! lol He was in most respects.....as much an absentee father and he was a husband even though he came home most of the time and was still present in physical form.
In my wifes case however....her tolerance level for things outside of the way she wants he very low and this presents a problem for me in the way of patience. If patience is an issue, it means you are having to tolerate something that is causing you to wait for what you want. "I waiting and I'm not getting what I want and I'm reaching the end of my rope! Waiting...still waiting....waiting some more.....getting upset.....not liking this....waiting some more....I'm not getting what I want....now I'm mad!!! " I see this so clearly that it's ridiculous and even she finds herself reaching the end of this and having no where else to go.
The problem is that she has a very low threshold for tolerance. And what she can't tolerate is non compliance. Compliance to what is the question? When she hits that point where people don't comply and she feels her patience running out....she has a tendency to get short and imperious (self rightous ) and feels rather entitled in exacting punishment to the offending party. In my case....that would be me. lol
I would have to say that I am pretty even handed when it comes to seeing the other side (at critical thinking) and do not only think with logic and no emotion and I have a pretty wide capacity to tolerate a lot and not get too upset. If anything.....I had to learn to be patient and come to the realization that sometimes....you are NEVER going to get what you want no matter how long you wait. If you are going to waiting for other people to give you what you want.....you'll be waiting for a very long time! Like....forever. If people haven't come to this realization in the first place....they are under the illusion that it will come as long as I wait long enough and keep punishing themselves with having to tolerate the wait in the first place as if it is going to happen. WRONG! It ain't happening....that's the problem. lol
As soon a your realize this fact of reality....that's when you will stop punishing yourself and other people for failing you and stop the waiting. When you stop waiting....your patience level goes way up along with it since you aren't having to experience tolerating that feeling any more. It's such a relief and load off just to be able to do that much in the first place let me tell you.
I'm tying in the part about the female/male way of seeing things because what I have experienced with the woman who grew up with lots of older brothers or in male dominated households. They appear to me as not waiting for anything and have come to expect some of this male thinking as an accepted way of life....the one they grew up in and just right it off as no big deal. They may not like it all that much but it doesn't seem to bother them either.
What I just said is the way I am as well. I just expect women to be the way they are and I don't try and get them to be different. I was use to it then and I'm use to it now and it doesn't faze me much. Mildly annoyed at times when it encroaches on me but that is to be expected and I'm use to it. My capacity for such things is pretty deep and it doesn't require a lot of tolerance in order to maintain that.
I'm bringing this up since you mentioned assigning punishments and what you said. I whole heartedly agree with you. If someone doesn't learn some of the basics of cause and effect and then learn to take responsibly for their actions (which is why I brought that story up ) it doesn't matter if you have ADHD or not....that is going to be a problem across the board. ADHD in that case has nothing to do with. And as I was trying to illustrate here as well.....patience, the need for immediate gratification and the ability to wait or be tolerant of having those feelings and living with them (even sometimes indefinitely) has more to do with learning these basic skills as a child and gaining the capacity that gives you later as an adult. Nothing you will ever achieve that is worth a shit won't come at the expense of tolerating some pain and endurance to get to it first. No free lunch as they say.
I do think people with AD(H)D are predisposed to having trouble with this because of our capacity with emotional lability is lower than most. But that doesn't mean you can't gain some more if that's the case. It just takes more effort and more patience and having to tolerate not getting what you want in the momenta and learning to live with those emotions and tolerating them for a while until they pass. It may not be comfortable but that's what you have to do. In our case.....waiting to be different is like waiting for something that will never happen.
It's when you get all self righteous and thinking other people are causing this experience in ( having to tolerate pain or be uncomfortable or are not in agreement with the way you see things ) you when you feel like you have to punish people for doing that to you. I get this impression from my wife at times when she can't jump the gap in her thinking that in some things that have to do with my ADHD she keeps waiting for something that is never going to happen...... for me to feel and think the same as her and not consider the other side of the coin. I think this is where that statement comes from that says.."this is just who I am and I am not going to change."
This is flawed thinking in my mind. Yes.....you are who you are right now.....tomorrow you could be different if you changed something and learned how to do things differently. If that weren't the case.....I would still be throwing rocks at my neighbors house because his dog keeps barking and waking me up in the middle of the night.lol
It's called learning and doing things differently. If you don't learn from your mistakes....you will keep repeating the same thing until you learn to do something different.
That's what capacity is all about. Learning, gaining and acquiring new skills so you don't have to rely on the old ones that didn't work so well for you when you were a kid. And even if that is true and someone with ADHD has a lower capacity or lower tolerance for some things than average...it doesn't mean you can't gain some more and you are stuck in the same place you are now. I do know that this is absolutely not true.
On the receiving end of this looking at from the outside in for everyone else....if your tolerance and capacity for seeing anything outside of what you can accept as being the norm for everyone and cannot apply what you know about ADHD to someone who has it and expecting them to be just like you.....you will be waiting and tolerating your own disappointment there for a very long time. Punishing that person is from your own inability (or capacity for tolerance for waiting ) because in reality.....you are punishing yourself for not being able to accept this fact and work with what is not probably ever going to be exactly what you want.
I'm talking in generalities here OW....I get from your situation that you are dealing with someone who is probably not going to change much. I also know from experience.....not much you do either way is going to make is going to make much of a difference based on all the things you said. My T has brought me to this conclusion myself from my past experiences and you really only have one of two choices to make here and you have already made that decision.
Now ....all you can do is learn to live that decision and not wait for things to change (in your case). What is burning you up is having to face this fact every time he hits you with that "Narcissistic slap down." That's what I call it because that's what it feels like. It's endless and takes an enormous amount of effort to keep holding your mud. It's that holding your mud feeling that is taking it's toll on you and you are fighting up against. It probably won't stop either. All you can do is keep it from eating you up and not thinking it will ever change (even if you know that already) Somewhere in you....you need to find what it is that you are still fighting against and let that go. I had to do this too so I know it can be done. If you don't do this for yourself....you'll just be angry all the time and that is not something that you have to wait for to change in yourself.
What you can do in order to this is to expect it instead of waiting for it to happen. When you accept it...you expect it and it is not as bad and you aren't waiting for it to happen anymore or thinking that it will be any different. That's what I was calling the feeling of resignation that you get when this happens because you are no longer fighting it inside yourself.
J
J
Coming Back Here OW
Submitted by kellyj on
i just had a flash back to and inside joke that my T and I have used with each other. We are both fans of Star Wars, Lord of Rings, Star Trek.....yes I know, we're Geeks and no I don't dress up like them, go to conventions and collect memoribilia. But it has more to do with the archetypes and the the characters that portray them. We've used these to refer to since they are so classic Greek story telling good against evil....blah blah blah.
Anyway....in reference to what I was saying about resigning yourself and expecting things not to change......I remember once he waved his hand across the air and said "you fool....your Jedi mind tricks do not work on me.".....I busted up laughing but I knew what he was saying. He was saying the same thing that I am saying to you. lol
If you can't beat em.....you can laugh at them privately. At least it takes the edge off in the moment;)
J
Well, there are some "punishments" that can be assigned...
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
When I read about H's who don't work, who goof off, and who spend money frivolously, I do wonder why ONE "punishment" isn't assigned: Take away his ability to spend money. Cut up his credit cards or freeze them.
If he doesn't like it or gets angry, then he has to move out. That is what would have happened in "the old days".
Again, I think this is a change from the previous generation. Men would not have been allowed to waste the money that their wives earned to put food on the table (when the men refused to work themselves).
And, often the reverse was true. My mom wasn't wasteful, but from the beginning, my dad would immediately put money from his check into stocks and investments and then he'd give my mom the rest that she had to pay bills with and buy food and clothing with. They had added up those essentials, included a little pad, and that is what my mom got. If she had run out of money for no good reason, my dad would have likely put a further control on the situation. My dad got paid weekly, so maybe a further control would have that he would have begun paying the bills, and leaving just weekly food purchases to her. Either way, he never would have let things out of control. He wouldn't have put up with credit cards being "run up" or bills going unpaid.
My sister knows of a man who would gamble away too much of his paycheck as soon as he got it. He was the only earner in the family and he was well-employed. The mom stayed home with several children. When it got to the point that she couldn't feed the kids because he was gambling away the food money, she divorced him. By divorcing him, the court-ordered child support and spousal support was garnished from his wages before he got paid. This insured that the mom would get the support money before he could gamble it away.
As spouses, we can't "punish" spouses by ordering them to pay for things that they broke, but we can refuse to buy replacements.
When I read about working wives with unemployed or "under-employed" husbands co-signing loans for cars and motorcycles because the men "promised" that they would make the payments, I scratch my head. When these men soon stop making payments, then sell the car or bike.
I know from personal experience, that when I question one of my H's "promises" he gets mad that I don't "trust" him. Well, after a couple of "trust failures," I now make him prove it first. When we were younger and money was tighter, we got into a couple of jams when H would tell me to "trust" him that we could afford to buy "X". Both times we got into a jam because H would later say, "Oh, I forgot about this other expense that we had to pay for." So, we would be short of money. After that, whenever H would say, "we can afford to buy that," I would say, you need to show me that we have 4 times that amount of money.
Looking At This From Two Different Angles
Submitted by kellyj on
If you are punishing someone....you are taking action against them for something that they did to you. Are you trying to teach them a lesson and if so....what will they learn. I think punishing someone is more of an act of retribution....as defined: "Retribution- punishment inflicted on someone as vengeance for a wrong or criminal act."
What is likely to happen when you do this with someone? Thinking they will retaliate in some form or another either overtly or passive aggressively? Vengeance has no place in a marriage. It also means that someone must judge and access the proper punishment in the first place. I smell the seeds of self righteousness all over the place in this scenario. I'm not implying anything directly at you OW....I'm just running through how this might be perceived on the receiving end of it.
What do they say about communication? 80 or 90% of it is non-verbal. These messages come across whether you realize it or not and if you approach it from this angle then you are likely going to be saying it by your attitude and how they perceived it? We (people with ADHD)....are already on the defensive and this will likely be like stepping your foot right into it since their radar is already finely tuned to pick this kind of thing up and you aren't going to teach them anything. What you are trying to teach them will get lost in translation I fear if you come at it this way.
How about you are protecting yourself and being proactive instead? You are just looking out for your best interest with no judgment or punishment involved? Preventing them from hurting you again is smart. Cutting up the credit cards is preventing them from doing this and teaching them that they can't keep making the same mistakes over and over without you doing something to protect yourself. That message will get sent pretty clearly and it is a reasonable thing to do. Logic would dictate that and it's pretty hard to argue with and there is no place else left to go.
The other thing that you are doing is putting yourself in the authoritarian position ie" parent / child dynamic. You don't want a child and he does not want a parent? The end result is not hard to figure out when this happens?
You need to be an adult who is communicating with another adult even if he acts like a child. If his actions cause you to take on the parent role instead.....you are being manipulated by his actions instead of the other way around. See the dilemma? Seeing him as a child in behavior but treating him as an adult is maintaining who you want to be and teaching him to be one at the same time. It's useful to see him this way to help you gain that perspective advantage at times...and that can help you decide what you should do.....but the last thing you want to do is let him know that or to treat him like one in the way I am saying.
I can tell you.....it doesn't take any special talent or mental genius to figure this one out on the receiving end of it.lol
Plus......who wants to sleep with their own mother? eeeyew!!! lol
J
Someone wrote this in another
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
Someone wrote this in another thread about how her husband leaves all the work for her to do.....
The following was her H's response.....
<<< I saw no reason to take action because I knew you would<<<
In a nutshell, I think that's one thing that has changed. Most women wouldn't pick up the slack in the old days, and men knew it.
In the more rare cases that the women did "pick up the slack" they only did it after kicking the guy out of the house. The guy didn't get to "enjoy" the fruits of his wife (or GF) doing the work for both of them.
Another wife wrote this.....
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
<<< I just realized that as I'm working my 2 jobs and taking overtime on top of that and barely making the rent and he's not working and just sitting there watching Law and Order or Star Trek, <<<
The above is another example. There was a time when women and mothers would not tolerate this. The guy would be out on his ass. I don't know of one mom who supported her able-bodied husband so that he could watch TV all day. This just didn't happen while I was growing up.
Maybe it happened in lower class uneducated circles, but we are now seeing it in middle class homes with educated women.
Instead, we have long seen cases where women have had to put up with bad behaviors because the man was the breadwinner, and leaving would financially break the mom and kids.
I know that I would not put up with what I put up with now if our finances weren't so tied together and I would lose too much if we divorced. I have never supported my H. He has always brought in a strong salary, even in retirement. There would be nothing that would motivate me to keep him in the household if he were watching TV all day while I was working one or two jobs.
OWW...
Submitted by c ur self on
(The above is another example. There was a time when women and mothers would not tolerate this. The guy would be out on his ass. I don't know of one mom who supported her able-bodied husband so that he could watch TV all day. This just didn't happen while I was growing up. )
Don't get worked up now!..LOL....I agree w/you;)...But, when I read these stories, it spawns many Q. in my mind...Like: Are we getting the whole truth? How healthy is this couples marriage? What have they made important in life? Where is their support system? What would cause a person to be such an enabler and excuse such abuse?
"Maybe it happened in lower
Submitted by LyraHeartstrings on
"Maybe it happened in lower class uneducated circles, but we are now seeing it in middle class homes with educated women."
My mom and I are both college educated. Yet we unfortunately also both suffer from dysthymia and anxiety and a ridiculous case of being too damn empathic. We are "saviors", you know, that person that like the Bible tells you to be but when you are it you get abused and dumped on and have people ask why on earth you put up with the stuff you do. Yeah, that's what giving the shirt off your back and turning the other cheek ends up doing.
My mom even asks me how I put up with my husband and I guess it is in the blood somehow because she put up with my father for years. He would throw away bills so she didn't even know they came. He shredded her cigarettes just to be cruel and wasteful. He drove her to Yonkers and left her there once. He beat her up once when he got drunk. I still remember him hitting her and the police woman in my bedroom and I was in my crib. A crib, for God's sakes. And she put up with him because Catholics don't get divorced. Well it took him molesting my sister for her to get rid of him. I used to pray for them to get divorced. He threatened to kill us all if she left him, too.
How about the answer is I'm depressed and have no self respect left. How about I don't know what healthy boundaries look like since I am used to giving so much I don't realize I'm being used (by everyone, friends, my sister, my nieces and so on). How about I can't say no to people and when I DO, I get backlash and attacks and guilting (even from my mother.) How about I grew up with someone willing to put up with poverty and abuse from a man so I don't value myself and I do what I'm used to?
I hate it, it sucks and it's wrong and I am a loser magnet.
How terrible and scary for you and your mom....
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
Was your dad unemployed during all of that time?
Was he arrested for hitting your mom and the police officer?
So very sad that your sister was molested by her own biological father. Sick! It's interesting that it took THAT offense for your mom to kick him out. Was he arrested for that? Did he have to serve jail time? I ask because having him forcefully removed from the home (arrested and jail) would have made it easier for your mom rather than kicking out someone who would "fight her" about leaving. You mention that he made threats about killing you all if your mom left him, but since she eventually did, was it because of an arrest and jail? If not, how was your mom able to get him out of the house?
<< The dignity that comes from being the "breadwinner" or at least a "fair share" contributor cannot be underestimated for males in the western culture, and probably other cultures as well. Most men "know" that they are judged by what they do for a living, how much they earn, and how they provide for their families.
I think that men who become essentially "moochers" in their homes "know" that they're not living up to the expectations of our cultures definition of how men should be. I think that this realization manifests itself in increased anger, resentment directed at their wives/GFs, and so forth. <<
I strongly believe the above. That is why many men who even have some disabilities will do anything to work and earn money. They want and need the self-respect.
There is a young man on my street who was a teacher until he got into a serious car accident (I think he may have been drinking or driving way too fast). He is now confined to a wheel-chair and his mom has had to move into his home to take care of him (he is single). He is depressed, mopey, etc. If his own actions caused the accident, then he probably is very angry at himself for causing such extensive and permanent damage to himself. The accident didn't affect his intelligence so he still probably can teach. If he got back into teaching, even if just substituting, he probably would feel better about himself. At least he wouldn't feel like such a burden and "non-contributor." His mom had to quit her job to take care of him. His dad is paying for two households now. The guilt that this young man must feel must be overwhelming.
Perceptions vs Perspective
Submitted by kellyj on
I think perceptions are a more difficult to change for some than others. I grew up in the same era and saw the same things you did. It never would have occurred to me to be anything different. But things changed rapidly along with social norms and constructs and I think there were times in there where no one really knew what to think? It was a transitional time and a lot of things were being challenged and experimented with only to find that when the dust settled (mostly lol) a lot of traditional values maintained themselves after all. I see younger generations romanticizing these notions today without the context of the times and not everything was all peaches and cream. A lot of women thought this sounded empowering for them and a lot of men found themselves scratching their heads and not knowing what to do? I experienced this myself and it has been echoed by other men I have talked too. The biggest complaint I have about women as a result of this is a tendency to play both side of the fence and men are not allowed this luxery. My T has reiterated this aspect to me and I think it is a legitimate one. I think on the male end of this in a direct comparison.....there is the same (the male negative stereotype associated with this) aspect for some men to follow as well which is my way of saying.....yes, I see these things too.
"If you take away controls....people have more choices and freedom....never a bad thing but there is always a cost associated with freedom. Nature abhors a vacuum. Remove the controls and stigma's and you are going to change the dynamic...... and people in general will usually default to the lowest common denominator and the path of least resistance if there is nothing in place to motivate them to be different.
....remember....you cannot create or destroy energy.....it has to go somewhere?" taken from my above comment
"It was the best of times.... and it was the worst of times" lol
J
PS....before I forgot to make an important point here.....I think the bigger issue with someone with some kind of disorder (especially) is changing or even seeing their own perception of themselves. That does appear to be the main problem if you stop and think about it?
think the bigger issue with someone with some kind of disorder
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
>> think the bigger issue with someone with some kind of disorder (especially) is changing or even seeing their own perception of themselves. That does appear to be the main problem if you stop and think about it? <<
Right! And can you imagine how more damaged their self-image is when they know that they're not pulling their own weight and that they're burdening their wives and GFs?
There is a certain self-respect that is gained when someone earns an honest dollar.
Right. I Think You are Accurate
Submitted by kellyj on
in suggesting PD's vs Disorders here. If someone is at the level of disorder in dysfunction....they can't and probably won't see it all. They are going to be operating on a level of denial that allows them to function in complete separation of the ability to feel bad about themselves to maintain their self esteem and ego. I think that describes a disorder (software programming ) for example OCD vs OCPD. A person with OCPD is going to be aware of it...painfully so.....and suffer from anxiety,depression,low self esteem and insecurity from it. It's a default tendency rather than and ingrained pattern if I am not mistaken in how I worded it.
I also believe if not mistaken.....the level of denial is going to be different. Someone who is NPD by definition....is going to be completely separate from feeling any guilt or shame in how they behave and will not be very anxious or depressed at all and not be very insecure either. Wouldn't that be nice? To be free to do anything you want and never feel bad about it? It would be somewhat freeing if you put that into context?
A person with a PD is going to be aware of the themselves enough to also be aware that there is something wrong. They're perspective is still going to be off but at least they are somewhat aware of it and full of self doubt. I put myself in that category in my past. I totally see it now. There is hope for someone like this (as is with me) and I can attest for that much. Once you see it.....you see it. You can't unsee it after that point. When that happens....anything is possible if you want to make the effort.
I have deep regrets from my past but I can forgive myself for not being able to see it without some help but to say that you can change your behavior once you do.
I still don't get not working and having someone else take care of you. Work at least is something you hang your hat on and feel like a productive human being which only makes you feel better about yourself. You'd have to chop my arms off and tie me to a chair to keep me from working and even then.....I still find something productive to do so I could contribute and pull y weight as best I could?
I've never been any different and have still had ADHD the entire time so this is where I depart from being that dependent on anyone. Dependent personality disorder is a real disorder and I suspect that this was what my ex wife had all along. Add a touch of histrionic and depression on top of that and you've got the perfect victim in denial. That was really tough to be with let me tell you.....it was like having an Adult child with credit cards to take care of and bail out of trouble financially...that can argue and reason with you and withhold sex if they didn't like how you treated them. If you can imagine that and having ADHD at the same time? It was really rough.
Wait a minute......that sounds like so many of the posts on this forum? When I say I can understand.....I do understand. I think that's a huge part of why I am so committed in not being that way myself. A person with ADHD can change unlike other disorders when it is mostly dealing with the hardwiring issues.....the software problems are a lot tougher to manage.
That's what I mean when I say that the kind of denial of simply not knowing any better but realizing you have a problem is one thing. I wanted to know and find out and was overjoyed to finally get an answer. No one had one to drag me kicking and screaming to the therapist even if I resisted him some at first. It was my choice to keep going and no one made me do anything I didn't want to do. I did it for myself as much as I felt responsible enough to do it for anyone else at the same time. The last thing I wanted to be was a burden or create a problem for anyone not just my ex wife at the time. My perceptions of myself were definitely off but still in the ball park so to speak. It came and went under stress but most the time....I think I was working on all 8 cylinders and new when I was screwing up and didn't try to say I wasn't. Excuses were part of it but but not on a global level. More for infraction if you can understand the difference. lol
She on the other hand dropped out and discontinued going and didn't change a bit. She was in complete denial and to this day....is still doing the same thing she did before. That's a different kind of subconscious deep seated denial. Her perspective of herself is completely off the mark and in another dimension. Nice lady with a good heart but boy howdy....it took it's toll.
As my T has said to me many times.....we all live somewhere on a scale from high to low I think to the degree you see the same pattern in a person.....the severity and chronic frequency plus their own denial of it is really where you start making these kinds of distinctions.
J
I know that my H does so much better when he's accomplished ....
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
I know that my H does so much better when he's accomplished something. When he's been lazy, etc, he goes thru an introspective period where he mentally beats himself up for being ineffective and not getting anything done. And, then he takes it out on whoever is vulnerable.
" still don't get not working
Submitted by LyraHeartstrings on
" still don't get not working and having someone else take care of you. Work at least is something you hang your hat on and feel like a productive human being which only makes you feel better about yourself."
My husband's family didn't force him to work. He was lazy and didn't want to work for his father's company. They allowed him to get away with it and as he explains it, "When someone gives you free money, you're not going to work". He says that I wouldn't work if I had a ton of money and that's not true. I have always been a workaholic. It's the ONLY thing that keeps me sane. I love work and I love learning and want to also get Masters degrees in a variety of subjects. I'm very driven that way. My husband is a lazy lazy lazy person. He's phlegmatic which was really nice when we were friends. Trouble is, we got married. At that time he was trying to change and was pursing trade school to be able to work on his own. Things looked like he was going to improve himself and his life (though his parents were well off so it's not like he was in poverty or anything.) But then he gave up on that down the line and let his parents take care of him again and me as I was now his wife. I had his family, his parents and sister and HER husband controlling and judging everything I did. These people literally took over the bills for us and my husband let them and would scream and argue with me about how they were just trying to help and I should take their help and all that. I like to do everything myself, and he cajoled me about being independent as if it was a character flaw! His dad and mom picked out a house for us and put down the down payment on it and got it and I hated it. They didn't tell us what the bills were going to be and hubby always forgot to pay them, anyway. So much I could write a BOOK. Lost so much respect for myself by getting involved with this man in the first place. I felt married to his parents and sister and her husband rather than him.
And one time I even told him he needs to talk to them and break away and take on the responsibility for his life and our life and I said I feel like you're on "their side" and he said, "I'm not on their side, I'm not on your side, I'm on MY side."
He refused to talk to them and then I finally cracked and wrote to his mom about my concerns and she ended up crying and blubbering to the sister in law who came storming over to yell at us over it. And my husband was of course backing HER up, when he is the one who pushed me into a corner in the first place.
I have never been appreciated by him or his family.
Yes - totally agree
Submitted by Wifelife88 on
Yes, yes ... this is probably the fundamental problem in our household. Our marriage counsellor said that she believes our real marriage problems started when we switched roles - H stayed home with the kids and I went to work full time. H really encouraged this. H didn't find home duties fulfilling in the slightest - it only served to increase his anxiety. He didn’t do it particularly well – he would forget to pick up the kids sometimes – lol! He became anxious that I would come home and have certain expectations - dinner cooked, house clean, etc. I didn't have these expectations - but it appears his father did and he was projecting his own fathers expectations and getting himself into a state. His father was dominant and demanding and definitely the boss of the house. H has been brought up with those ideals and struggles in this modern world.
It's a slippery slope once the anxiety starts. After 6 years I encouraged him to find a fulltime job - he was going crazy at home. That is a long time for your self esteem to take a hit if fundamentally you believe you are the breadwinner and 'leader' of the family. He worked shift work for about 5 years but struggled with the demands and had conflict with his supervisor and a colleague. He has been on workers comp for 2 years now after a bullying incident at work. His anxiety and depression has only increased. He was diagnosed with ADD about 18 months ago. But I believe it is the constant anxiety that is causing his ADD to really fire up.
No matter what I or the family say – he truly believes he is worthless. His true talents are being able to fix anything, build anything (currently successfully renovating our house) but he still feels he has no value. Because I have a high paid job which I really enjoy – he dumps on me constantly. He feels below me. Nothing I say changes this as deep down he is programmed that the man is the breadwinner and the leader of the family.
So sad….
Because I have a high paid job which I really enjoy – he dumps o
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
<< Because I have a high paid job which I really enjoy – he dumps on me constantly. He feels below me. <<
I think this is more common than we think. And there's not much anyone can do to change this thinking. There's nothing really wrong with men thinking that they should be providers, we need men to think that way.
Maybe your H should start a "handyman" business. He'd probably do well at it. And if your job provides healthcare benefits, then he wouldn't have to charge as much as others who have to budget for that work-related expense.
How does your H "dump on you"?
such a challenge
Submitted by Wifelife88 on
It's such a difficult challenge to work through - and I'm not sure there is a solution apart from me quitting my job. We still have 2 kids under 18 at home so that's not an option. Also I love my job and the opportunities it gives us to travel and enjoy life. When H is calm he loves my job :)
H isn't open to any suggestions of alternate employment at this time. He says they are all below him. He says he has retired - he's 58. But he really enjoys helping other people. So if he could find something down that path it would be great. Don’t mention volunteering – he doesn’t want that. But he has "adopted" our neighbours and loves helping to sort out their issues. Our son-in-law has just started a handy man business - and there is so much work out there. So you never know it may rub off. But at the bottom of it I think that you can't give people their self esteem, they need to feel it from within and from their own achievements. So tricky.
When he is calm he really appreciates me and acknowledges everything I do for him. We have just had 6 months of counselling plus individual therapy. I can only change myself. I am very much of the school that if you can’t do something about an issue, just park it and don’t worry about it. When then gets tough I bunker down and work harder - but that style causes my H to become more anxious. So I have learnt to be calmer when I become anxious, how to soothe him when he is upset, how to not allow anxious times to escalate, not to hang on to the bad moments (they are just a moment in time), verbalise more what I am thinking rather than shutting down, giving him space to make his own decisions, and most of all not defending myself at any comment he makes against me (that’s his thoughts and not me). Overall I am in a really good place and have done everything in my power for our marriage.
But H is stuck in a loop. Over the past year he says he has seen the light and after 23 years I am the cause of his depression and anxiety. He says I am powerless to recognise the intense pain I inflict upon him, that I don't resolve anything just sweep it under the carpet, that I have no empathy for him, my attention is absent causing him anxiety, complete disinterest any anyone else apart from my own personal achievement, that I never make a mistake, that my whole life is spent putting him down etc, etc – the list goes on and on, you fix one issue and another emerges. When he gets worked up it all just spills out. He could actually write a PhD about what he believes my issues are (that must be the ADD part of him).
I am not perfect, and over the years I have displayed many of the traits that ADD partners show. I have worked really hard to be the best person I can be. H is so stuck that he can’t move on. I think the fact that I have worked hard on myself causes him more anxiety. He doesn’t think he can work on himself fast enough to keep up with me. Both our marriage counsellor and my therapist believe I have done all I can, and that the damage in the marriage is too great.
I just don't know how we all get stuck in such a rut. All of this seems like such rubbish and nonsense. Isn't all we want is love, kindness and compassion from our spouse?