It's been a long and difficult road; this marriage relationship of ours. But like all good things...GOOD THING??...Yes, (Proverbs 18:22..A man who finds a wife, finds a good thing), like I was saying, before I was interrupted :) lol... like all good things, it also has it's trials...We humans just tend to reflect the images in front of us...Especially those that are there constantly...It's human weakness...No man's an Island....
I've been battling that for a few years now, but, I completely sold out about 8 or 10 months ago....I give up control, I decided a few things...One; I was going to stop fixing and start fully trusting...Praying and leaving it there! Two; I don't care what the out come ends up being as long as it's the best for her, and me....Peaceful lives!...together? apart? I'm fine with either...( I couldn't give up Control, If I was going to determine the outcome) Just no fighting, no biting and devouring one another. I refused to take part in it, if it don't enhance the relationship, and bring glory to God....Period....
So how does this work?? Well it didn't take long on this venture to realize it's not about her, it's about me...If I am going to stand firm in this discipline, I had realize all the hindrances (baggage, insecurities, weak faith) inside me... I had to come face to face with, and own those first....
So I want get into all my problems, the page can't hold all of those....
So swapping expectations for Acceptance...Swapping frustration and emotionally charged attempts to point out poor behavior...For Kindness or Quietness....( I know it goes against my human nature; but, the good news is Jesus allows me to experience his nature, when I seek it and believe it...) Also, recommitting myself to make sure my wife is made to feel special and loved....( I realized fear of being taken advantage of, and fear of setting a precedence of enabling and feeding the control frenzy had put me into self protection mode). I found out that for me to shell myself up, in order to protect my self from disappointments, just turns me into the same rule making spouse I so dislike in her..(Not talking boundaries here, Just being a loving an Approachable life mate)
I've come far enough to recognize the difference in True Love and affection, and manipulation attempts....Besides I'm only accountable for my own motives....
Now there are things that I will still bring up if they are unacceptable to me...But only once, and said in kindness only.....One of these things happened recently...And I sent her a text concerning the behavior, written in kindness...with a prefaced that proclaimed i wasn't mad, and I loved her more today than I ever have....But the behavior I mentioned I told it would be disrespectful and unacceptable for me to do...And it's unacceptable for my wife to do....(It was just one of those tunnel vision acts, that can flow out of her with out a thought...(She is blind to it, because she doesn't attach honor and respect to the independent mind-set she lives in)...In other words, if she can justify it as harmless, then she takes no though past that point, of what it looks or feels like to to others...Like her Husband....
Normally in the past her responses to me were 95% defensive....You are wrong....I am right! and usually insulting :)....
But this is the copy of her text back to me....**Well done. I am proud of you and how you handled your feelings. I don't fully agree with you, but, I can appreciate/ understand your point of view. Out of respect for you I will alter my behavior. I love you too...<} <}**
This may be common for the way some of you can communicate....But for us it's something to rejoice about....So I'm just sharing it to give hope to those who may not have much....This post is about the progress of two people...Not one!
Peace to all...
C
Thanks For Sharing This C
Submitted by kellyj on
That was a gift and a half right there in that text your W sent. And everything you said I can see myself and my wife's part in a similar dynamic. Similar but not the sam with some significant differences. I did come to a place where I had to have my balance and all my own defensive or means to try to stay level have consequences even if they serve to even things out of to get past issues that you find ( hurtful ) for what ever reason. And as you said, ( we ) or them.....can't where our own behavior is offending or simply hurtful with are many times the ones that happen all the time. The continuous or on going things, that start to add up over time. I'm not taking about "things" on a logistical or physically level ( outward habits related to other things )....this is the interaction level and the things we say more than we do that either make for a connection or they hinder it. And in affect....how they effect us on the recieving end of it which is what we are most interested in, since those are what are most important to us ( all poeple) while at the same time, considering our place and those around us, and how we fit in this mess to try and keep our heads above water or to just stay "level" or on a even keel you might say? For me, that's all I ever want really ( peace and calm )...I certainly don't need an award or anything more than just having that for myself first of all, and second for everyone else I'm interacting with ( mainly at home or in person as the idea of "public' and "private" social consciousness comes into play. ) But when it comes right down to it for yourself or anyone else reading this.....( from my lifetime growing up the way I am to this day ) the ability to reflect back and become reflexive in my thoughts...is at the heart or core here as far as connection goes I think? What I remember and what I remember very well ( yet more as a memory of the feelings ) but not what I 'feel now" aside for a faint bit or at distant moments that are few and far between. Painful "self continuousness" at times especially as a teenager was almost more than I could bear and it was consuming to me at times. This ( to varying degrees ) is normal and a normal time for that to happen. What I've really come to realize now with my wife for example is that this same "self consciousness" is the "thing" she is feeling and still feeling to this day, all the time as it comes and goes. At the heart or core of where this all comes from can be said in this simple concept that everyone has experienced at some times in your life. To have to live in this state and live there all the time, is like a prison and a torture chamber of this deep down pain that it can feel like. If you really want to see the person in front of you no matter how misbehaved or how rude and disrespectful they are and how that effects you......if you can look past that and look at just this one concept of "hyper painful chronic self conscientiousness" you can pretty much count on being in the ball park I think. And....if you really want to go deep and get right to it.....this encapsulates ( my own "awakening" experience for a brief time...similar to Eckart Tolle ) which is what happens when you literally become "aware". ( copied and pasted from Wikipedia )
Meaning of reflexive self-consciousness
Eugene Halliday made a lifelong study of art, religion, philosophy, psychology and science. From his understanding, he formulated a coherent set of ideas. In his seminal work "Reflexive Self-Consciousness", he sets out the nature of consciousness and its relation to the world of phenomena, being, and mankind. From this, he explains how consciousness itself can become "reflexive". By this he means that consciousness becomes completely self-transparent and continuously aware of its own presence and nature.
He says that when observing a thing or situation one can promote this reflexive state by turning our own consciousness back onto itself. "It is the self, which is consciousness itself which is observing this thing, this self I am, I return to the self." By placing our nature as observer at the heart of his work, Halliday sets out a method by which to liberate ourselves from object-identification, which locks us into a cycle of conditioned reflexes, pleasure pursuit and pain avoidance.
He sees a complex structure of cells, such as the brain, as "a vehicle for the expression of the complex processes of consciousness" and not as the origin of that consciousness. No matter how complex the arrangement, consciousness cannot arise from the biochemical interactions of a large number of non-sentient particles.
Origin of being
Halliday posits that the ultimate source and origin of our being is sentience or consciousness. He sees this origin as an infinite field of sentient power. Halliday compares the activity of this infinite field of sentient power, the source of all beings, to that of the sea. Its internal movements, its waves, create vortices within it, which give rise to all the observable phenomena of the world. Atoms, molecules, cells, plants, animals, mankind, human beings, all are formed within this infinite sentient field, and all are sentient. There is no non-sentient level of being. Thus agreeing with the philosopher Alfred North Whitehead when he said "there are no dead gaps in Nature". This infinite field of sentient power, which is the ultimate source of the universe and all within it, is the Godhead of the theologians, the Absolute of the philosophers.
Involution
Before evolution, Eugene Halliday posits an "involution", whereby the motions of this absolute sentient power creates the universe and all the beings in it. Consciousness tends to fall into identification with beings, down to the grossest physical level of the mineral world. Through the process of evolution, sentience evolves through mineral, plant, animal and human to rediscover its true nature as Consciousness itself, at one with the infinite field of consciousness. This return of consciousness to its source, is the Reflexive Self-Consciousness of the title of the book."
And the key portion for you to recognize ( as I have now come to clearly see ) is:
by which to liberate ourselves from object-identification, which locks us into a cycle of conditioned reflexes: pleasure pursuit ........ and ......pain avoidance.
He sees a complex structure of cells, such as the brain, as "a vehicle for the expression of the complex processes of consciousness" and not as the origin of that consciousness. No matter how complex the arrangement, consciousness cannot No matter how complex the arrangement, consciousness cannot arise from the biochemical interactions of a large number of non-sentient particles.
I understand this exactly now from my own experience. To escape, this trap or the confines of these two pursuits in an effort to stop the pain and the suffering ( and the real motivation....behind EVERYTHING at the core ) is to become "Transparent" ie: Your ego which is how "ego" fits into this. When your ego dissolves and becomes transparent, you no longer feel the painful feelings of self consciousness anymore and you then become aware of yourself, like you are watching yourself and watching someone else and you're aware of all 3 things at the same time simultaneously. When that happens....you simply become aware? That's pretty much it. The real problem you face even if you are this way yourself....is when you are with someone trapped in those two cycles and you have to live with them and what comes about from this disconnect as said. When someone is so absorbed by their own pain and suffering....they can't be too worried about yours in that case but where it comes from originally however....is from the damage done to your ego....if that is truely the case growing up. If your ego is so damaged and the pain is so great.....then they are literally at the "teenage" place of super duper self conscious "pain" and they never grow out of it. That last part is what I think it looks like to me but that's just my own conclusion there I can't know that for anyone else for sure?
But the bottom line here is for you C which is so great that you see this too......this is 100% Nurture as the cause....so nurture is the cure I think which goes right into what you;re saying? That's why that was so big for you in what your wife said. Either someone decides they want to...and volunteer and "yes" "I want to". Or they don't...and they say "I don't want to. I don't care" There are only 1 of two choices here, which makes it pretty simple when you pay attention and listen for these words. These are the words that will tell you how to go or what to do because this cuts right to the deep down soul of a person...and when the soul says No....there ain't nothing you can do about it. It makes it easy to know where you stand and how to proceed I think. With you C, it's pretty obvious just from the text your wife sent you. That's good news to hear and I very happy for you indeed :)
J
Interesting stuff J....
Submitted by c ur self on
A few things jump out at me....The molding of our consciousness (effects of nurture) and how that plays out in our thinking, feelings, and behaviors is very interesting...I agree, it really can tell us a lot about ourselves, when and if, we can attain to a level of self awareness, that isn't skewed by the desire to feel good about ourselves....
Knowing where we stand is a great thing, it at least affords us the opportunity to make positive change in our own lives...If we have the desire, courage and capability to do so.....
Also the breaking of conditioned reflexes is vital....pleasure pursuit.....and....pain avoidance is definitely a reflex condition in humans....And those of us who do not come to the realization, that for us to grow to mature levels mentally and emotionally, we must understand this concept...Because there are times we will endure "Good Pain"....And times we will experience "Bad Pleasures"....I call this simply, "Self Discipline"
This concept is basically one of the main reason's for lots of conflict....I think that is what you are pointing out?? Those things I might engage in "words or action" or my W might engage in words or actions...That is spawned off of natural tendencies, but are perceived (felt) as possibly disrespectful and offensive to one another...The cycle is; an action occurs, the effects or felt, the action is pointed out as such....At this point it can go either way....If there is no ODD to hinder, or if it wasn't pointed out with negative emotions, at a level that has really started a whole new problem....Then you have a chance for agreement...
But when the desire for pleasure or the avoidance of pain becomes the paramount desire in a heart and mind...Then it will do what Chevy said in her post, and what you are pointing out also...It drastically reduces an ability to find unity and agreement...It blinds the person from being able to SEE (think or feel) what their actions are causing in their spouse....I would call it....No, or limited ability, for self-discipline, past the level of natural carnal desires....
When a person is lock into their own mind and feelings to such a level they have no desire or ability to feel others pain (even that, that their own actions is producing)....This phenomenon has been given many names....I've read a lot of them on this site over the last few years....And wrote few...LOL...
C
Completely agree.
Submitted by smd1409 on
I can tell you that I would not have gotten anywhere near where I am now if I did not do the same as you. Neither could my wife have made as much progress as she has with me if she still saw me as the one that needed to make changes to my life.
When she began to trust my suggestions to improve and went along with them, she started to see me improve at a much faster rate. Sometimes my suggestions failed but it brought me one step closer to understanding myself.
When she became patient with my failures and saw them as attempts to improve, she looked a lot less stressed. All she asked was that I kept trying and it helped calm me and give me space to breathe and think about the next steps.
When she started listening to suggestions (from outside information like books and me) and trying to find a way to work with those suggestions until it was successful, she was able to make life much easier for herself. At one point she managed to change my mind on something to something she wanted instead, on a situation I thought was near impossible to change once I started on it, based on practice from a suggestion I made months ago (she would keep trying but was horrible at it). But when she did it successfully, I was like 'wow, I am so much more in love with you now', because I finally felt as though there was someone close to me that understood me and could actually control me, and that felt amazing. The difference here between trying to change others and changing yourself is that with my wife, she kept tweaking the advice given to her, accepting that the flaw might be with the way she goes about executing it, until she got it right, not using the advice to change me then when finding that it didn't work,w making excuses such as it's because I was resistant and in denial and then giving up.
Of course it requires the other side too, like how I was the one who pushed and pushed despite resistance from not only my wife at the beginning, but even from doctors (doctor didn't want to refer me to be checked by a specialist for ADHD because she believed people with ADHD stereotype that could not stare at a screen for more than 15 minutes, behaved badly at school and got low grades, all of which I went against) and physical obstacles (got stuck inside a hospital for 7 days, told not to move or even get out of bed, completely destroyed any sort of advances I'd made on my ADHD and had to start all over again). It's just simply that you cannot blame others or else nothing will change. Like when 2 people are arguing, the only way it will stop is if somebody makes the effort to stop. The other side might even try to make you continue if they're really angry, but you know if you fall for it and continue you'll feel much worse off after the argument is finished.