From the "Silver Splitters" thread in the anger and frustration subforum
J remarked. And as far as "things that are shiny"? My personal theory on that from my own experience? In part....it's looking for things that give you a "positive expereince" in comparison to the negative once you have in an effort to even this out just by :"feel". If you feel the need for more positive experiences......you are going to "seek" those more often in the form of "things that are shiny" and fun or rewarding. In the very essence of this.....you are doing things to "manage" or offset these experiences which is a form of actually "managing your ADHD" which comes in this form or manifestation.
I've been thinking about this passage from J, as I remember, addressed to Adhd9er. Both of them with ADHD.
I think the phrase that got me thinking was "managing" That plus J's description of a person seeking to manage himself by counterbalancing negative experiences by looking for things that give positive experience
Which sent me looking for a professional refresher on the dynamics of self regulation (getting yourself and keeping yourself in balance in a good steady state) and relationship regulation, where one partner seeks to get either the other one or the two of them, to do things different, so that the "regulator" of the relationship feels like he/she is in balance in a good steady state.
Part of my dealing with my childhood wounds and dysfunctions included recognizing that as a little kid, yes I did try to do things to regulate terrifying, unpredictable behavior on the part of one parent, especially, but really both of them, too often. I won't run you the list of what I tried to do to make things go into a good, steady state for me. It didnt bring me security. Life at home remained unpredictable and terrifying. But as a kid I did try, in my weak, non confrontational ways, to get my parents to not go into their terrible to me fights, and not attack me. Regulation is about SELF care, not about cooperative creation of something, or is it sharing or co deciding
So that was my introduction to interpersonal regulation, where one person is trying to convince, explain, badger, gaslight, force someone else, whatever it takes to do something that he or she thinks, realistically or unrealistically, will put that first partner into a safe, good dor the first partner steady, predictable, non threatening, regulated steady state. Sure there are partners that try to regulate their spouse, for what the first person thinks is the good of the second. But the secret is that the attempted regulation of the other person always has the piece that if the other person's behavior is changed the first one really believes that things will be better, in balance, for HIM/HER.
I want to think about this some more. Regulation is not a dirty word. I suspect that all people who live together daily have to do some regulation first of themselves, but second of the interaction with the other family members. As J says, its about doing what needs to be done to live in balance.
But I do think it needs to be seen clearly, who is supposed to get th benefit of the attempt to persuade or the other partner to do something. It needs to be seen when one in a relation is needing whatever he she needs, and gets into over regulating the other partner.
There are TWO people in the relationship who need to be in a good state and in balance. Not just one.
Anyway, tossing it out there, the topic of adults self regulating, and trying to regulate other people, because they, the regulators, need to be in a good state
"Positive Experiences"
Submitted by c ur self on
There are TWO people in the relationship who need to be in a good state and in balance. Not just one.
Small Children are needy, they are intrusive members of the family. They need help and to be taught about balance. To a child, positive experience's is candy, fun and games and all the shiny things...They do not understand balance, they have no ability to regulate their minds on any consistent bases to live responsibly and in balance....So as adults, we just expect to grab their hands in parking lots and hazardous area's...We just expect to make sure their diets are proper...and so on.....
But adults, who seek positive experiences that can only be had at the expense of others, has an out of balance view of life...If my "shiny thing" is always my own self esteem, and the only way I can properly feed the monster is by persuasion, control and manipulation of others, then my life will always be as intrusive as a small child...When an adult live this way, it will always produce alienation (in some form) of those who love them...
C
Chemestry and Self Awareness C
Submitted by kellyj on
As I read what you said here....I gathered in context to what you were saying....that you are aware. As you wrote the parts about your childhood....you saw your part in it and what you did....to offset and an imbalance that you experienced with your parents....and then within yourself to make yourself alright....without actually "knowing"....what you were doing and why you were doing it. You were not "aware" and in "denial" of what you were doing....but you did it anyway, without knowing anything better to do? No one taught you to do this....you learned it from the experience you had and just doing the best you could under the circumstances.
No one can fault you for what you did....and you can't fault your parents for what they did because they were just doing...the same thing as you were given the circumstances and the person they were with. I think this is less intuitive...and more just operating on what you "feel".....unconscious of the forest and only thinking of the trees. And you....being the most important "tree" in the forest at the time. And so did your parents...for the same reason. We all start out as the "most important tree in the forest"...until you realize what your doing? And mostly and most commonly....no one realizes this....until you realize it and many times and very commonly, people never realize this until you have a need or a reason to stop and figure this out?
I was thinking about what you said in terms of being "enabled". An enabling parent...will do there best...to never make this happen for a child...who is "blind" in order to keep them that way to protect them. Protect them from what...I might ask? I believe.....they are protecting themselves from seeing themselves and not doing it for their children sake even though....that's what they "think" or tell themselves for the exact same reason. And so on it goes...down the line and gets passed on to the next generation? And you wonder why....the best advise in "fixing" your relationship now....is working on yourself first? No one is immune to this...and we are all in the same boat no matter what you pick as the problem or the reasons for it. The Buck stops here if you are going to be held accountable yourself for any problems that "YOU" have in "YOUR" relationship.
What you said here C....was really perceptive...."Small Children are needy, they are intrusive members of the family. They need help and to be taught about balance."
An enabling or negligent parent.....is not doing their job in order to teach their children this and why it gets passed on down the line. If your "parents" themselves...are not "in balance" ....this is what you learn.....from that experience as a child.
And what about a parent....who doesn't want to look at themselves as someone who has a problem? They're not going to want to see a "problem" in their child since their "child" is a reflection of "them"? And what if that child has ADHD? What do you think that parent will teach that child about the very thing....they do not want to look at?
Don't look at it....and maybe it will just go away? "Nothing wrong here....."We're" just fine Thanks."
"Who's this "WE".......you got a turd in your pocket?"
It's one thing to have behavioral issues stemming from what we learned growing up. It's another one....to have those things..."plus" something like ADHD to throw into the mix?
There is no "teaching" anyone anything about ADHD....until you know that it even exists? And for the parent who wants to think of the children as "perfect"...in order to compensate for themselves and their own imbalance and never do anything about these by doing "nothing about them" (doing nothing)....or........try to "punish them away" because no one knows that neither one of these will work when talking about ADHD since ADHD doesn't start out as a behavioral problem....will actually be "creating" a behavioral "nightmare" for their child....by doing this very thing. The cause is from ignorance and unawareness on the parents part and this is what is being taught to their children unintentionally....but none the less "real". It doesn't matter "who" started the fire when your house is burned to the ground does it? The house is burned and unusable.....that's the only thing that matters at that point isn't it?
And if so...."what are you going to do about it?"
Keep doing the same thing as before? Or do something different?
The definition of "insanity."...is doing the same action repeatedly....and expecting a different results......... each time you do the same thing over and over...and never get the results you are looking for?
If you take two chemicals and throw them into a beaker....you will get a chemical reaction. No matter how many times you take the same two chemicals and put them into the same beaker in the same amounts.....you will get....the same exact reaction each time you do it.
So the question is......how many times does it take....to figure this out? And then once you do.....what do you need to change? If you are one of these two chemicals......either you change the amount you put in yourself....or YOU change yourself to a different chemical?
Is there really anything else you can do? I'm not seeing it ...as far putting two chemicals into a beaker is concerned?
The point that I'm bring forward from what you said here C....is that the "things that are shiny"...is the ADHD part you are born with. And since you have ADHD all of your life.....those behaviors that a person might do only when they are a child.....continue on into adulthood for the same reason even if you were taught or learned better but done in a more "adult way". Different version.....same "thing" and same "difference."
That is....until you become aware of it and the reason why and then do something to "change" it....once you realize this is what you are doing? I think what I just described is "denial of ADHD" and why it happens which amounts to simply "not knowing" or "unaware" of any of this and the reasons why?
But the refusal to look at it or want to do anything about it? That comes from the parents....the same as is it for anybody no matter what you personal problems are. But as an adult.....you can't continue to blame your parents for what "they" didn't know...and here you are.....knowing what they didn't know? Who's fault is that.....NOW.....if you're not doing anything about this for yourself?
And what if....you are either trying to punish, nag, manipulate or just yell at them and be angry with your spouse ....or try and control them or force them to do what YOU want them to do for doing this "to you"....and/or ...."neglecting them" and "doing nothing yourself to change"..... because they are just too much to deal with "FOR YOU"?
Who's this "WE" here? The definition of "insanity"? (or "who's" on "first"? You ...or the person you are with? )
As far as I'm concerned.....either....you can't see that you're "personal problems" aren't anyone else's "problems" but your own.....or...... you believe that "your personal problems" are someone else's fault and they are the ones to blame as to why YOU are unhappy? Either way....it's a way to take YOUR "personal responsibility"....and put in the hands of someone else instead of yourself and wondering why there is a problem in the first place?
That's like having a car with only two wheels...and wondering what the problem is? And if you've got two cars with only 4 wheels between the two of them.....what's the answer here? Get only two more wheels and then put them on "one car" and you jump in the back seat of the other persons car and then complain when they are driving right?
Who's to blame for that one....I might add? If this is your personal problem with them....sounds like you need two new wheels yourself and do your own driving then instead of complaining about the other persons car and driving....when you only have two wheels on your car and your car isn't working because of it?
And who's to blame for your car...only having two wheels....and then doing nothing to get your car fixed....because it won't drive or function properly and you are dependent on the person who actually has a working vehicle...but now has to ferry you around and do all the driving FOR YOU?
What are you going to do about this? Be a back seat driver and complain when things are going your way?....Or get two new wheels for your own car and learn how to drive so you aren't dependent on the other person to get anywhere in life?
J
Reading with interest, J
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
If you take two chemicals and throw them into a beaker....you will get a chemical reaction. No matter how many times you take the same two chemicals and put them into the same beaker in the same amounts.....you will get....the same exact reaction each time you do it.
So the question is......how many times does it take....to figure this out?
...as many repetitions as it takes. I have a dim memory of writing to you once how a therapist once explained the mindboggling thing in human beings that they keep doing the same flub up in the same way over and over and over again, until they are pulling their hair out and castigating themselves for being stupid at doing it AGAIN. She said, don't think of it as multiple screw ups. Think of it as trial runs on that problem until you do it right. Just like boys learning to shoot baskets do, shooting thousands of baskets in the driveway.
Plus....for myself, I consider that even though I can see that there's a problem in my life...people aren't stupid...sometimes the solution to the problem has to wait for the right time in life. It's been true for me. To make some changes, I had to do some preliminary changes of other things first......
And then once you do.....what do you need to change? If you are one of these two chemicals......either you change the amount you put in yourself....or YOU change yourself to a different chemical?
Reminds me of one of my mottos to my self: Either change yourself or change your situation. I really, really like your sequence that there's life beyond the point at which a problem is solved, and for things to be good, you, or I have to go on and get further into changing ourselves.
Unwanted Chemical Reactions....
Submitted by c ur self on
Where I get my information; marriage is two people in the same beaker for their life times....If there is a violent reaction; you change the components that make up the people....Which starts w/ Awareness, if you want a less violent mix....But, if one or both of the people in the beaker has the attitude you listed here.....(Don't look at it....and maybe it will just go away?)...Then as you state it; the violent mix and the insanity will continue...
The reason many on the forum are here (not all) is their desperate search for answers to these questions....How do I live in this beaker for the rest of my life w/o being a negative reactor?? How do I become a non-reacting component mixing with.... Don't look at it....and maybe it will just go away?
We should grow up at some age....Or, we can continue to blame Mommy and Daddy for not loving each other, and not loving us "Properly".....That lets us off the hook and we can avoid all the work and convictions that follow when we actually own our stuff, and c ourselves....
It will be really sad to go to our grave's and never raise our hands when someone asks the question....Who in the room is screwed up?? My hand is up! LOL....But, it is also going to be up when the person asks...Who in the room is aware they are screwed up??....And it is up again when they ask...Who wants to puke up their reality's, so you can experience the gift of clarity of self awareness, and do the work to change it??
C
Self regulation and/vs attempts to regulate someone else
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Speaking only of adults, not of kids who, as C said, are not in habitual balance, so their parents need to help them learn how to keep themselves in balance. That is, if the parents seek to foster and nurture their kids, which most do.
Speaking only of adults, where it seems to me that things can get relationally messed up, is if an adult tries to substitute regulating someone else's behavior, mind or feelings, in place of doing the work of regulating her or himself.
That's just my tuppence about it. I think I'm correct about that, regarding me and my husband.
Praise the Lord....Hallelujah!!!
Submitted by kellyj on
"Speaking only of adults, where it seems to me that things can get relationally messed up, is if an adult tries to substitute regulating someone else's behavior, mind or feelings, in place of doing the work of regulating her or himself."
"It's not what you know.....it's what you Think you know......that's the problem." And when you already think you know...and you are so sure that your right. You dismiss everything else that you hear as wrong....and stop listening. Ain't that the truth? lol
And what if what you know....or what you think you now....is "wrong"? But you're sure that it isn't?
That's a problem...."within it".... and "by itself" Double wammy !! lol
Let alone.....that person....trying to do that FOR another person? OMG!!! Triple wammy!!! LOL
And you wonder why....things can get so screwed up in a hurry?
You know....I will always remember learning to teach swimming lessons to kids and going through the Red Cross WSI course in how to do this. And the one thing they emphasized...and emphasized....was repeating the same thing....over and over and not just saying it "once."
And then I went and taught lessons to hundreds of kids in the 4 years I did this. Then later....I worked with adults one time in filling in as a substitute teacher for adults...who never learned how to swim?
So...the ranges of ages of people I taught swimming too? Started as young as 4 and went to ages in the 30's and even 40's for a couple of those adults.
And you want to know....the easiest and hardest one's to teach anything too? Starting at age 4 and going to age 40ish....from easiest to hardest. LOL
When the 4 year old....didn't want to put their faces in the water for the first time.....they cried and wined a little and then just did it.....worst case scenario.
When the 40 year olds....didn't want to put their faces in the water for the first time....they tried to reason with you....and talk their way out of it by giving you all the reasons....why they shouldn't. LOL
There you go.....Nothing new under the sun as they say? lol
J
Still sorting things out......
Submitted by Zapp10 on
I am a seeker I think,by nature. I love to learn about A LOT of things. ADHD wasn't on my radar until AFTER it slipped in the back door of my life and took up residence. I need to understand it to the best of my ability.
I have been trying to get this particular thought sorted out so I am putting this out there for anyone to chime in.
I understand the premise of ...comprehension, justification and listening to reason. I understand individuality enters into every situation. Here is where I am not sure about ADHD...in a marriage dynamic. There are "things" that interfere with communication.......once these barriers are wrestled with AND understood the ADHD person has the same ability to comprehend and listen to reason( and yes I am saying I am somewhat better at this....BECAUSE I HAD to learn also). ....MEANING ....they can consider another viewpoint positively NOT negatively. They don't HAVE to agree but they can respond in an intelligible mature way? The justification on their part has nothing to do with ADHD and is more about self interest?( outside of adhd?) Does the ADHD prevent them from ACTUALLY NOT being able to grasp the "given" basis of marriage?
I hope I articulated my thoughts on this better than I think I have( adhd by osmosis?). My understanding is ADHD has nothing to do with intelligence......so the ability to LEARN is NOT an issue. I get that justification can be/ is a result of the extreme defensiveness that crops up with ADHD BUT why does "listening to reason" seem to escape them? Wouldn't that be a "goal" to strive for?
Cognitive reasoning.....where it involves 2 or more people is exhausting for ALL. My H can't be non adhd anymore than I can be adhd. There are HUGE decisions made that not only effect the day but weeks and months ahead(never mind years). Can they LEARN to see the result of actions.....in a way that gives them pause when the same circumstance presents again?
At what point do we need to realize it isn't just the adhd.... it is immaturity....
This adversarial dynamic is a living being that SCREWS daily life.....