Hi all. This is only my second post here, but I have been following this site for almost a year now.
I am desperately looking for some help in finding a better wat to communicate with a partner who emotionally stonewalls. Absolutely refuses to acknowledge the validity of any viewpoint other than his. Wants to spend his time arguing the nuances of "logic" in a situation, rather than addressing the emotions involved. Tells me that whatever he did/said was "no hurtful" and therefore "he can't give me any acknowledgement for that".
My boyfriend has ADHD. We have been together a little over a year. He is medicated and usually very well-controlled/adjusted. He was up front about this when we got together, so I have been researching and trying to understand things from this perspective all along. For the most part, he is a VERY high-functioning individual. Incredible work ethic, puts his own time management and 'memory' strategies in place (white board where he writes down lists of things to do before leaving the house, over the weekend, etc).
The area in which we struggle is everything to do with this post. His concepts of my emotions and responses are completely self-focused, combative, and defensive. And I CAN'T figure out how to change this dynamic. He seems to have this mentality that it is his right/prerogative to decide which of my feelings are "correct", and therefore deserving of his attention. Something I often hear from him is "I can't give you support for feeling like something I said was hurtful, since it wasn't hurtful". He says that "validating my misconception" will only lead to further escalation. Whereupon I get incredibly frustrated because I am being spoken to like a child, and he is NOT the emotional "boss" of who gets to feel what.
What is this tic that makes him think he is the arbiter of what is/isn't hurtful to me? If this a manifestation of RSD (rejection-sensitve-dysphoria)? I think perhaps it has to do with sensitivity to feeling like I am attacking him by saying something is hurtful. Even though I am always careful to make it very clear that I am saying "I feel", NOT "you did".
Another facet of the problem is that, perhaps because he is such a high-functioning individual, he SINCERELY believes that he is being empathetic, understanding, and compassionate. He also believes that once he has "processed" something, his opinion about the subject is absolute FACT. There is no other way to look at it. Period.
We are separated at the moment. We had an argument, and he physically backed me into a corner. I started it, and I escalated it. I got angry, he got angry, but it ended with him backing me into a wall and screaming in my face. So I packed my things and left. We started talking about trying to patch things up. But his concept of this situation is that he has done NOTHING wrong, because he was pushed into losing his temper. Whereas I abandoned him, with no justification possible, because there was no reason for me to feel afraid, and therefore I should "consider myself lucky" that he is even contemplating returning to the relationship and undertaking counseling together.
I am frustrated beyond words, terrified that I am going to lose someone whom I admire and adore and can easily see myself spending the rest of my life with. But I CANNOT tolerate a partner who refuses to acknowledge the validity of my emotions. Who thinks that his perception is the only one possible, the only one that can be valid. The fact that he places 100% of the blame for this on me is just insupportable to me. And I'm shocked, hurt, and betrayed that someone I KNOW to be a wonderful, kind, good person would treat me in this manner. Is this defensiveness/refusal to accept part of an ADHD-driven response? Does anyone have any insight into this?
We once had an argument wherein we were both heated and needed to walk away. When we came back to sit down and discuss things the next day, he informed me that he had considered the issue from all possible angles and decided that, although it was going to be difficult for me to hear, he felt he should be the one to tell me that I seem to have some sort of mental/emotional difficulty in interacting with people appropriately. This was the only possible explanation for my behavior in his mind.
We are supposed to start counseling next week. I am afraid that he will walk into counseling expecting the counselor to validate all of this for him, then when she fails to do so, accuse me of picking a partisan professional and walk out.
Does anyone have any suggestions on how I can work with him to re-orient his perceptions here?
Thank you all for being such a blessing and support. When things are bad, I always know I can login here and read about someone else experiencing a similar situation. It has kept me from leaving many times!
Checking Yourself
Submitted by ADHMe on
One of the first valuable things I learned in my mental health journey is that it's a scientific fact that a person must first have a thought before they have an emotion. This means that many times our emotional responses are made on snap judgments or an unchecked stream of thoughts rife with confirmation bias In fact, this is one of the core tenants of cognitive behavioral therapy, and to a lesser degree, mindfulness. A person who experiences social anxiety typically has a string of thoughts; sometimes self deprecating, sometimes catastrophic in nature which builds and builds to the point of causing physical symptoms and may lead to a flight response. At the end of the day, anxiety is just the physical manifestation of a cocktail of baser emotions (fear, frustration, anger, sadness among others).
In cognitive behavioral therapy we are taught to talk back to our inner voice (or inner dialog if you prefer). I often refer to this process as "checking yourself" or "putting yourself in check" and will do so for the remainder of this response. If you are feeling fear in social situations, your thoughts might be... "I'm afraid I'll embarrass myself" or "What if they don't like me" or "Most people just don't get me", etc. These thoughts are very destructive and the result is an undesirable and distorted emotional response. Given the previous example, the most basic way to check yourself is by asking yourself, "And what would that mean?" Your afraid you'll embarrass yourself? Ok, you embarrassed yourself, what would that mean? The inner voice might answer back... "people will think less of me." (probably not, but maybe)... Again to the inner voice "so, these people think less of me- what does that mean?" The point of this specific self speak is to realize that you are are the sole reason for feeling so afraid of something that probably means very little in the grand scheme of things. Once you realize this, the next step is looking at the situation in a more realistic context... "What if I embarrass myself?" Now you check yourself by saying "Why would I embarrass myself." Your inner dialog chimes in again, "cause sometimes I say things and feel stupid after the fact"... Again, you should check yourself,... "Everybody feels stupid sometimes, if this person/these people think less of me for a comment or two it says more about them than it does me."
How does this relate to your post? First off, lets talk about your BF backing you into a corner. From an outsiders perspective, I think most people will agree that fear is a valid response to physical intimidation. Even after checking yourself, you should conclude that your emotional response is valid. However, (and I'm making some assumptions here) you may find that the process of checking yourself provides greater insight into how your BF will respond, and also help you explain your emotional response in a way that will disarm his defensive nature. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that his point is that regardless of his actions in this instance, you should know that he would never physically hurt you. It is natural for anyone to become defensive if they are told by someone they care deeply about, that you are afraid they might be capable of violence against you. It is normal for a non-abuser to feel like they are being unfairly categorized based on little evidence for, and a mountain of evidence against any fear of abuse. If the physical intimidation is an anomaly than you must realize his position is also valid, without proper context. This means that your discussion with him on this topic should include a general validation of his perspective while also providing the proper context for him to understand your perspective. It might look like this:
"You've never given me a reason to be afraid of you but in that moment I was genuinely scared. I have never seen you like that before, the look in your eyes made me question something I have always taken for granted; that you would never physically hurt me. I need you to understand that backing me into a corner or anything like that is not acceptable, and it's not something I'm willing to put up with going forward. I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, because you are right- I don't believe you would ever harm me physically. You need to understand that your ability to refrain from any other acts of physical intimidation is now tied directly to my faith in your ability to refrain from physically abusing me. After all a threat is a threat and unfortunately, whether you intended the threat or not, it succeeded in making a part of me afraid of what you might be capable of."
I hope this helped answer your main question, but I plan to add more to this later- because at the end of the day, we are all responsible for our own emotions until we have properly vetted the thoughts that lead to them. Combating confirmation bias is the most difficult part of this process.
ADHMe.
You've Made Some Valid Points ADHMe
Submitted by kellyj on
But I think there is more too this. On a deeper level, the self talk "or fear of social embarrassment" as you mentioned actually has more to do with the fear and pain of rejection and the need to be heard and listened too that comes from this fear. (the backing her into the corner and holding her there....a more panic response out of fear and desperation on that deeper level) It disproportionate and completely out of line but I can see it in terms that she says she did bring this on from what she did prior to this happening. There is no excuse on his side but if you are trying to get to the bottom of his behavior and stepping back from the incident itself ....you are probably right in giving her boyfriend the benefit of the doubt about actually physically hurting her (as means to intimidate and control as an abuser) but it's still abuse none the less and the affects she is feeling are more relevant to her from the act itself not what caused it. I think she may be right about the dysphoria caused from the fear of refection. If this is the case....talking about the incident and approaching at that level is not going to do much in the long run only to possibly fix the immediate problem. I think we are dealing with yet another symptom but I do agree that there is a story or reason behind it that does need to be addressed.
J
I can see where you are coming from...
Submitted by ADHMe on
And I can agree that fear of rejection plays a part as this is something that I personally deal with. In fact, the social anxiety examples I provided all relate back to that point though I never explicitly referenced a fear of rejection. I realize you are getting to the core of her initial question, I was aiming to provide a tangible example of "checking yourself"(in this case, checking herself should not lead to a change in her emotional response) before addressing a different point in her post where she seems to expect her BF to automatically accept her emotions as valid. This is not an unfair expectation if a person has history of only presenting emotions that have been properly vetted. I can speak from personal experience, that when someone is constantly spilling emotions that have been left unchecked (or worse, built up through confirmation bias - which can feel a lot like "checking oneself" if one is not careful to honestly challenge their own emotions in the first place) it is mentally exhausting and near impossible to help a person do this once you are in the midst of the emotional fallout. If a person believes that their emotional responses are valid and worthy of acceptance simply because that is how they feel, It makes me question how thoroughly that person vetted their internal dialog before allowing the emotion to take root and manifest. It doesn't mean they haven't done this, but I believe it's an important point to consider, and it's a variable that I suspect can seriously impact relationships between two "normal" people as well. I still plan to flesh out this point further in my initial response. You always have great insight J, and you are one of the main reason's I read this blog everyday. Thanks for the response.
ADHMe
Validity of emotions...
Submitted by jlhrva on
Hi again, ADHMe...
To your point " If a person believes that their emotional responses are valid and worthy of acceptance simply because that is how they feel, It makes me question how thoroughly that person vetted their internal dialog before allowing the emotion to take root and manifest. "
Yes. I absolutely do believe that my and every other person's emotional responses are valid and worthy of acceptance. Period. Nobody gets to say whether your feelings are "right". That said, just because we FEEL something does not mean that things ARE that way. I think that is what you mean by "vetting" your emotions. This is a process that is somewhat innate in deciding whether you need to express what you feel. Sometimes it's easy to say "I feel hurt because I am very sensitive to (x), this was not an action that was intended to hurt me, there's no need to bring this up". But sometimes, even though we know a partner did not mean to hurt us, we still need to make clear that a certain action or statement did cause us some (unintentional) hurt. This is the point I struggle so much with regarding my partner. He seems to think that he gets to be the ultimate arbiter of which thoughts/feelings of mine are acceptable or correct. They all are. Period. Just as all of his are. We feel what we feel, shaped by every single factor that makes us unique as people.
Now, we absolutely have a responsibility to analyze those feelings, understand where they come from, and decide to what they are attributable and whether our partner can fairly be asked to hold any "responsibility" for them. We may find that we simply misunderstand each other's intent, when we begin discussing that something our partner did/said made us feel hurt, and thus know that the "hurt" we felt was no more than an unintentional inflection, etc. But, to me, for a partner to just simply say "that's not a valid feeling" is not acceptable. One can definitely say "it was never my intention to hurt you, can we sit and talk about this and try to figure out where this is coming from for both of us?". But one cannot say "I don't acknowledge that feeling as having any validity/worth/etc".
And for clarity, it's not as though this is a frequent or common occurrence within my specific relationship. It's that 100% of any hurt that I bring to my partner, if it pertains to him, is completely and immediately invalidated. Whereas I am expected to acknowledge and apologize for any hurt that he brings to me. And this is a fundamental imbalance that has to shift. He is a highly emotional person. I am a pretty even keel person. I am blindsided by his presentations of things that hurt him fairly often. But I listen to them and, if necessary, explain what I meant. And always apologize that he was hurt. It does not matter and is not up to me to decide whether he has a "right" to be hurt. For me to take this approach would be to devalue him as a person. And he is my equal partner, emotionally and otherwise. I simply want the same in return.
His emotionality and 'emotional logic' are just very one-sided to me. That's the root of what I'm really asking about here. Every interaction, discussion, etc. is considered and judged from his point of view. If he is hurt, then what I did was hurtful. If he thinks that I 'abandoned' him unjustifiably, then I did. Period. But unfortunately, there are as many points of view as there are people in the world, and mine is going to be different than his. Unless he wants to spend the rest of his life with a clone of himself, he is going to have to learn to validate and accept another person at this level. And not just accept, but value and admire.
He would rather spend 4 hours chasing a logical loophole in another person's "argument" (and let me note how exhausting it is to have to present a judicial case for why your feelings have validity EVERY time you express one!) than simply listen to the other person and apply the same amount of effort to understanding their point of view in a truly empathetic way. This leads me to my question about whether he truly has the innate capacity for actual empathy, or is his emotionality actually so self-focused by some twist of ADHD (or something else?) that he is truly unable to do this?
We are saying the same thing...
Submitted by ADHMe on
From what I am reading here it seems like you are very emotionally intelligent. Emotional intelligence is not something that is uniformly innate in the general population as far as I can tell. In my relationship, I (the ADHD spouse) is the even keel one, my wife (the non) is the highly emotional one. I believe you are correct, this problem is mostly a product of one's capacity for empathy. It seems as if your BF has fallen into the confirmation bias trap as well, so he really feels like he is "checking himself" as well as looking at things from your perspective.. My wife does this sometimes, but generally she just needs to tell me how I made her feel. I am responsible for her emotional reactions. If I explain that something she has done has caused me inconvenience or hurt, she doesn't just say - "Oops, sorry I won't do that again". Her response is to blame me for making her feel guilty. I know this, and I go out of my way to explain things in a neutral way. Doesn't matter, no matter how I word it-if she feels guilt, I am giving her a guilt trip. I wish I had advice for you, but I am still trying figure it out myself.
ADHMe
Could you expand...
Submitted by jlhrva on
Could you expand on the 'confirmation bias trap' you mentioned? I'd be interested to hear how this plays into your own situation, as well as how you think it may impact mine.
Thanks again!
Thanks so much for taking the
Submitted by jlhrva on
Thanks so much for taking the time to provide a real response to this!
I really appreciate your perspective on orienting myself around his perspective. I have definitely tried to do that all the way in this scenario, and my comments to him on the situation have VERY closely resembled your suggested dialog, actually. Kind of uncanny how much so. I told him that I completely, rationally understand that he would never hurt me. I explained that a fear response really has nothing of rationality in it, and unfortunately mine is heightened by past experiences. I explained that I would never have left him under any circumstances other than precisely those, but that his actions scared me deeply.
Unfortunately, this is still being met by stubborn refusal to acknowledge any responsibility at all. The contention is that he did not hurt me, and was not even fully responsible for the anger/aggression he displayed, because he was "pushed" into it, therefore he has done absolutely nothing wrong. However, my response, in leaving, was unforgivable and cannot be seen in any light other than 'abandonment'. Saying that I was similarly "pushed" into my reaction is a "bulls&*t comparison". Asking for the same courtesy he is extending himself (by excusing his aggression) falls on deaf ears.
It really seems as though I have no choice but to take full blame for the entire situation. So, I did so. I said that I completely understood his point of view, acknowledged his feelings of hurt, would do anything in my power to make it up to him and show him how much I value him and our relationship. This has only been met with "you're lucky I'm willing to go to therapy with you and stand by you while you work this out. No other man in my position would do this".
So...now I am left with a choice between completely sacrificing my self-worth on the altar of his ego, walking away entirely, or praying that a therapist can break through this wall with him.
Ah Yes... The Hypocricy of It ALL lol
Submitted by kellyj on
This is what Therapists are for....to get to the source of this perceived hypocrisy. It's not hypocrisy by the way but I know this is what it feels like when you cannot see the other half of the equation which allows you to see things clearly. (and fully!)
What he said... The contention is that he did not hurt me.... Is it true? Of course it is (stating the obvious) and he probably won't but that's it as far as he can see.
The rest of it.....and was not even fully responsible for the anger/aggression he displayed, because he was "pushed" into it, therefore he has done absolutely nothing wrong. However, my response, in leaving, was unforgivable and cannot be seen in any light other than 'abandonment'. Saying that I was similarly "pushed" into my reaction is a "bulls&*t comparison". Asking for the same courtesy he is extending himself (by excusing his aggression) falls on deaf ears.
In my way of expressing this (excuse the sarcasm here) "Who was behind you shoving you, the dog?" Thinking about the Son of Sam killer...."my golden retriever told me the to kill all those people." Right? It's losing game to enter in with this kind of circular reasoning. Good for you in not going there. A good therapist will not go there either and all he will be doing is digging a deeper hole for himself. I've dug a few myself with mine over the years. It happens. lol
This is the part that the therapist should be able to get him to see if your H is open enough to listen and think about it long enough. He needs to see that his response itself was based on something that has nothing to do with you.....it's in there somewhere but your H can't see it yet. Hopefully, your T will get him to see it too;)
J
Thanks, J!
Submitted by jlhrva on
I needed that laugh! Your sarcasm and mine speak the same language.
Key phrase you just used - "circular logic"...!!! I swear I used to spend half of my emotional life trying to come up with comparisons that can pass the circular logic test in order to even be considered. And then the light bulb went off and I realized that I couldn't beat him at his own game. He'll just change the rules in mid-game. So I stopped playing.
I so hope you're right about the therapist! Although I am worried now that we may not even make it there. The appointment is not until next Thursday, but the new game today is "I am really not doing very well. I am starting to lose hope that there is anything here to fight for". I have reassured him that I love him, am committed to him, and will face this with utmost dedication. But I think this is the beginning of an attempt to avoid the appointment.
Some Possible Clues
Submitted by kellyj on
Hi jlhvrva,
I was reading up on some articles about Narcissistic Parents and the resulting abuse to their children. This has more relevance to me in this case, but I am also of the mind that these things can get played out with anyone even if their parents are not completely Narcissist because most people don't always fit neatly into well defined categories either. You amy be right in what you experience ( the RSD) but I think what is beneath that could be better explained by a couple of things that I read in these articles. This might give you some clues to work with and the perspective and picture of your situations that you are looking for.
In light of the comments I already made about you going into see a counselor and just listening....I took this excerpt from one of the articles that boils this down to the bottom line......the key to the door I think you are looking for with your H. Possibly?
She searches for the core of the individual, which has been distorted through traumatic experience. This emerging core, vague as it may be, is the central focus of her mind -- held in safe keeping for the patient to whom it is mostly lost. The idea is to listen well and avoid imposing on the client a concept of what they should be. Young-Bruehl describes a therapeutic process based in love and respect for the individual's path of growth. "Do you have a picture of the kind of person you want to be? Do you have a dream for yourself?" Such questions are posed to reveal the pull a patient feels in themselves for their own future.
taken from:https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-me-in-we/201203/when-narcissist...
I thought about this in terms of stone walling and refusing to the validity of anyone else view point. I think for a person like this, they need to be heard more than anything and then feel validated themselves first before they can here another persons point of view. I can see this in myself from my past in a big way before I was diagnosed. Digging in was a specialty of mine which came as a result of my experience in my family growing up. In the article that I will include a link too.....this excerpt is the one that best describes my own situation and the corresponding results. In all case I think surrounding 'ADHD and the experiences that people have...the bottom line and the key way in has more to do with the fear, pain, and anger of being rejected and abandoned because of it. It being the ADHD itself.
Here's the one that best describes the net result of what I experienced taken from the second article on Narcissistic Parents that I thought was really relevant in terms of being resistant and stone walling. It may give you some insight too as it did for me on myself:
There are those who refuse to succumb to the parent's impossible need for mirroring and gratification and, therefore, rebel. They live their lives in anger and opposition, refusing to meet parental (or societal) expectations. And for all the narcissistic parents that appear to be so preoccupied by their children, there are those that are so excessively focused on themselves that their children barely register on their radar, except for the moments when the child gratifies them. These children continue to struggle, to varying degrees throughout their lives, to establish their authentic selves.
taken from http://thepocketpsychologist.blogspot.com/2009/10/narcissistic-parent-an...
This third clue was taken from an article about RSD which you so insightfully suspected. I think you are right in this assumption but these things can also go many different ways. I took this excerpt to show you how this played out for me. It was a coping mechanism I learned to deal with rejection. I did learn a lot of coping mechanisms that allowed me to function and not loose myself completely in all these things. In that much....I tended to always find a way but not to say that the overall effect of these coping skills still did not have their down sides. As a adult.....I've had to find new ones through the process of elimination and replacement....that where other peoples patience has proven to become something that I value very much in people as it pertains to me and this process.
In the long term, there are two possibility outcomes. The ADHD person becomes a people pleaser and always makes sure that friends family and acquaintances approve of him For me...this was only to a point. I did it enough to get by as needed but I did learn that pleasing people will get you a lot further than rebelling against them it you want to fit in or need things from others at times what ever it is.
After years of vigilance, the ADHD person becomes a chameleon who has lost track of what he or she wants in life. This definitely applies. If becoming a chameleon proves to be a way to integrate with others and make friends....it proves to be a valuable tool in getting along and being accepted. The down side to this is what was mentioned. This is different than being a con-man because it is genuine and you aren't playing a role or part but.... to do this, you have to give up a lot in order to do it and still be yourself. That's the part later that needs to be heard and not be afraid of being rejected if you say what you really want that is different from others especially someone you are close to and don't want to lose. You do reach a point (as I did in most cases) where my self esteem was worth more than being with other people rejection or not. I learned to take the rejection and the pain in that case but you still lose in this scenario. What you really want is to be heard and feel like you don't always have to compromise yourself just because you have ADHD. That's the tricky right there.
Other's find the pain of rejection so bad they refuse to try anything unless they are assured quick easy and complete success. Taking a chance is too big of an emotional risk. There lives remain stunted and limited. As I said....I picked door number one in this case. I'm like a Timex watch...takes a lick'in and keeps on tick'in. lol
taken from: http://www.additudemag.com/adhd/article/10121.html
If you remember what I said ( was it to you ? ) about someone in denial and needing to go slow and feeling safe? Feeling safe from rejection without the fear of losing who you are and want you want at the same time and juggling these three balls in the air without dropping them is a touchy one to do at times having ADHD. It's easy to drop one ball and have them all fall on the floor which is the point where you just lose it and get overwhelmed and angry in those moments. Your boyfriend was probably having one of those moments when he cornered you and wanted to be heard? Or he might have been like door number 2 and lost it over some other perceived nuance of rejection not an overt sign from you? (thinking whatever you said to him which you already speculated you incited him in the first place to set these gears in motion....not blaming you or making your responsible for him, more to explain what happened as a result of what you said or did and the reasons why?)
Again....that's why just listening will tell you a lot sometimes if you listen for what's underneath the bull shit, lies and the illogic and learn to read what he is saying and the reasons for it. The Narcissism articles may or may not apply here but like I said...I believe these things can show up in other case without the extremes like this however ADHD itself...is an extreme out of the norm and can throw things off in different direction like this. I hope this helps.
J
Here We Go Again...
Submitted by jlhrva on
Counseling is supposed to start Thursday.
This morning I get a message about how he's "feeling so discouraged" about the possibility that counseling can even help us. Because "there are so very many things that [I] need to see that [I] am doing to destroy our relationship" and he is "only being met with negativity and accusation" when he points them out. Ignoring all of the forward progress we have made in discussing things together over the past few weeks. Reverting back to the literal square-one of the discussion which led to the fight where he backed me into the corner and we split. Literally, starting in with me as thought no dialog since then has taken place.
I responded that this was discouraging, and that I would love for us to go to counseling with a more hopeful, respectful, and positive attitude, leaving aside the attribution of "blame".
His response: "This crap that you're pulling with me right now is the same kind of thing that got us where we are at right now - getting all defensive, making your own twisted interpretation, and treating me like I'm an as%&o*e".
(WHAT?!?!) "I said that I would like for us to be more positive. No one has 'treated you like you're an a&s*o%e". (Was my keyboard hijacked and someone called you names...??? We're accusing ME of twisting and misinterpreting...but...!!)
His response: "I firmly disagree that I misinterpreted anything you said. You may not have said the word "as&h*l#", but saying I am blaming and have the wrong attitude about saying you're wrong is both eliminating the possibility of you being wrong and accusing me of being an a*sh&l$".
(IT IS...??? B/c I could have sworn it was just asking for a more respectful, positive, and open-minded tone...)
PLEASE HELP!! I DON'T SPEAK THIS LANGUAGE AND I DON'T UNDERSTAND!!! I feel like this is the beginning of him backing out of counseling while blaming me for the idea that it can't be successful. I hope I'm wrong....
Belief Perserverance, Framing, Hueiristics and Derealization
Submitted by kellyj on
Belief Perseverance: Once we have decided that we believe something, we will tend to keep on believing it, even in the face of disconfirming evidence. Particularly if other people know of our belief, it can be embarrassing to climb down from our previous assertions. It is also difficult to remove a belief which has been woven into a wider web of belief, without disturbing those other beliefs. I once told my mother (she had some really rigid religious ideas about Christianity)....that Jesus wasn't really born on December 25 and scholars actually think it was sometime in spring (less important to me...who cares? ) But told her I had done a research paper in college about Pagen holidays and how December 25 (approx) was the Winter Solstice and had a number of old Pagen ritual ceremonies already established that the Roman Catholic Church around the Constantine era was actively trying to supersede by replacing the same dates with Christian observances instead. My mom flipped out. It was one of the few times I actually saw her get really angry but her anger was not really even directed at me? I remember saying " Okay, Okay...sorry I said anything....GEEESE! I just thought it was interesting?"
Framing: Read these two questions and consider how you would respond if a person you liked called you and presented them to you: 1) "Would you like to go out tonight?"; and 2) "What time do you want to go out tonight?" These two questions are addressing the same basic issue, but they are framed differently -- they are presented in different ways and under different pretenses. The first, is framed in a more passive, open manner, while the second implies that you and this person ARE going out and the only issue is what time you will be going. It is all in how you ask! My wife does this all the time. She skips one important step.....am I this person and do I even want to go out tonight? If I call her on this.....the circular logic begins and she will go back and recall what she said differently another way (worded as if she asked but didn't) but never admit (or see) what the hell I am talking about? This is so frustrating!!!!
Availability Heuristic refers to how easily something that you've seen or heard can be accessed in your memory. People tend to think of things they remember as more important than things they don't remember as easily. A romantic relationship may grow because a person you've seen comes to mind after you've left them, leading you to assume this person must be important. In the same way, new friendship possibilities might have been overlooked because a person you've met several times has never seemed familiar, or they didn't make an impression on you.
I've done this many times......the thing that gets remembered has some special importance or relevance base solely on how you remember it. Once you realize that what you remember was less important than you thought, the memory of that thing also changes with it. I hate when that happens! lol
A Representative Heuristic is a cognitive bias in which an individual categorizes a situation based on a pattern of previous experiences or beliefs about the scenario. It can be useful when trying to make a quick decision but it can also be limiting because it leads to close-mindedness such as in stereotypes. There are several types of representative heuristics, including the Gambler's Fallacy, Base Rate Fallacy, Regression To The Mean, and Conjunction Fallacy.
Just to provide one example, let's look at the Gambler's Fallacy. This is a person's belief that the probability of an item changes based on previous attempts when in reality, the probability remains the same. If a coin was flipped 10 times, and each time it landed with the "heads" side facing up, someone relying on gambler's fallacy would believe the odds of it being heads the 11th time would be very low. In reality, however, the probability has not changed. The chances of a coin being heads or tails is 50% no matter how many times the coin is flipped.
If you are born with ADHD and only know your own experience in meeting and interacting with other people (of course)...and everyone else in the world who doesn't have it tends to treat you the same in one way....you will tend to believe or assume that this is how they treat everyone who doesn't have ADHD and the world is just full of assholes. Wrong! lol
Derealization: The detachment of derealization can be described as an immaterial substance that separates a person from the outside world, such as a sensory fog, pane of glass, or veil. Individuals may complain that what they see lacks vividness and emotional coloring. Emotional response to visual recognition of loved ones may be significantly reduced. Feelings of déjà vu or jamais vu are common. Familiar places may look alien, bizarre, and surreal. The world as perceived by the individual may feel like it is going through a dolly zoom effect. Such perceptual abnormalities may also extend to the senses of hearing, taste, and smell. The degree of familiarity one has with their surroundings is among one's sensory and psychological identity, memory foundation and history when experiencing a place. When a person is in a state of derealization, they block this identifying foundation from recall. This "blocking effect" creates a discrepancy of correlation between one's perception of one's surroundings during a derealization episode, and what that same individual would perceive in the absence of a derealization episode.
Frequently, derealization occurs in the context of constant worrying or 'intrusive thoughts' that one finds hard to switch off. In such cases it can build unnoticed along with the underlying anxiety attached to these disturbing thoughts, and be recognized only in the aftermath of a realization of crisis, often a panic attack, subsequently seeming difficult or impossible to ignore. This type of anxiety can be crippling to the affected and may lead to avoidant behavior. Those who experience this phenomenon may feel concern over the cause of their derealization. It is often difficult to accept that such a disturbing symptom is simply a result of anxiety, and the individual may often think that the cause must be something more serious. This can, in turn, cause more anxiety and worsen the derealization. Derealization also affects the learning process. Because the individual almost sees the events as if in 3rd person, they cannot properly process information.
People suffering from derealization have described feeling as if the world external to them were something in a TV show or movie, or as if they were viewing it through a TV screen. This, and other similar feelings attendant to derealization, can cause a sensation of alienation and distance between the person suffering from derealization and others around them
These symptoms are common in the population, with a lifetime prevalence of up to 5% and 31–66% at the time of a traumatic event.
I think this is totally relevant. I can see this in myself from my past (in denial), in my wife now and in my family. More clues for you to think about.
J
Foreign Language
Submitted by mlandis on
Jlrva reading your posts sounds exactly like my life for 34 years with a wonderful man that still has not been diagnosed at the age of 59. My life has been a cycle that never seems to get anywhere just like your last post. The RSD episodes can last days, often I think they are over but out of the blue he will go at me again blaming me for never admitting I'm wrong etc. I'm wondering, how are you doing now? Did the counseling work? We are trying a new therapist next week and I'm afraid the appointment is so far away that we won't gte there with the same resolve we had when we made the decision to move forward with therapy. I am desparately trying to save my marriage for my children to have a solid family unit their entire lives but I'm not sure I can continue with this. When after he seems to have an awareness that RSD is the issue he makes a complete 180 to it's all my fault I'm a controlling and trying to needle and break him down to win. Win what I don't know and he hasn't been actually able to verbalize but who wins is very important to him. I tell him, there is not winner or loser here, if we can't get help for RSD episodes we both lose and most importantly our children are losing big time!!
Emotional abuse
Submitted by Grendelsmom on
I know this thread is 2 years old but the last comment is only a month ago, and I wanted to add to the discussion.
I am the person with ADHD in my marriage; I was diagnosed a year ago. I also suffer from rejection-sensitive dysphoria, I have realised since I learned about it in the last couple of months. This has been a revelation to me. You mean everyone doesn't feel this way?
However, I have been married for 20 years. I do not treat my partner or my children this way. I know that my emotions are my problem and I have known it for many years. It took several years of therapy in my 30s to get there, but I know it now. Nobody can "make me" angry. Nobody can "make me lose my temper" and pin someone in the corner while screaming in their face and then claim that I "couldn't help it". I can ALWAYS help it. I can go into another room. I can go for a walk. I can count to ten.
The behaviour that the writer and commenters above are describing is emotional abuse. It is not acceptable and it does not matter why the abuser is doing it. It doesn't matter if the abuser has ADHD and RSD and a thousand other conditions that make them inclined to be abusive. They are still being abusive.
It is not the partner's responsibility to "change" or "fix" the abusive partner, to "try to make them understand", to "help them see that I didn't mean it that way". It is the person with ADHD's responsibility NOT TO BE ABUSIVE, no matter how they feel in the moment; to recognize that some responses are never acceptable, not ever.
It is the person with ADHD's responsibility to learn to cope with their own emotions. It is the person with ADHD's responsibility to treat other people well. It is not the partner's job to try to make the ADHD person understand.
Abusive behaviour is abusive behaviour and it doesn't matter what the underlying cause is. The basis of any relationship is trust. The person with ADHD must trust their partner; must be able to ask themselves, whenever they are losing it, "wait, is my partner someone who would try to hurt me?" If they honestly don't trust the relationship not to deliberately hurt them, then they have to leave the relationship. There is no other honourable way. There is no "well, I just said that because I was angry", because that leaves the door open to doing it again, and again, and again.
But meanwhile the partner should not be asking themselves "how can I make him understand that I didn't mean it like that?" "How can I make him change?" "How can I fix him?" That is not your problem. That is HIS problem.
The question you need to ask yourself is "Do I deserve this?" And the answer is "no, I do not deserve to be treated this way." Nobody deserves to be abused; it doesn't matter what the "underlying condition" is. That is HIS job to manage, not yours to suffer.
Maybe he will eventually understand and maybe he won't. Maybe he will eventually learn to control his behaviour and maybe he won't. It is not the partner's job to make them understand, grasp self control, learn not to be abusive. It is HIS job.
It is the partner's job to have the self-respect to say "I will not tolerate being abused. If you continue to do this I will leave."
There are many, many good people out there who will not pin you in a corner and scream in your face and then say "well I didn't really hurt you so it doesn't count" and "well it's all your fault because you made me angry". If you stay with a person who behaves this way and will not take responsibility for their behaviour, you will be treated this way for the rest of your life.
My parents have been married for more than 50 years now. My father, with ADHD, is abusive several times a week, for as long as he feels like it, blames my mother, and has never changed. The threat of emotional abuse is constantly present. My mother- coped, and tried to protect the children. Accepted the blame. Kept trying to find a way not to trigger the rage.
I grew up in that environment. I thought it was normal. It took me many years to grasp that it was not okay.
I have ADHD. I have RSD. I do not behave this way. Having these conditions is no excuse for being an emotionally abusive rage-aholic. It's no excuse for refusing to accept responsibility for your own emotions.
Saying that someone is a "wonderful human being" who treats you to periodic episodes of spectacular emotional abuse is contradictory. If he behaves that way, he is not a wonderful human being.
There are wonderful human beings out there, who will not treat you that way. Go find one of those. Or live alone. Either is better than spending your life with an abusive person who rages and blames it all on you.
Takes a Licking and Keeps on Ticking
Submitted by kellyj on
Hey everyone I'm back for a visit and revisiting this topic once again. I had to laugh at my comments after rereading what I've already written here which really made me smile. Especially the line that I used for the title of this comment which was where I came up with that just now .
Taking some advice that I'd been given here I decided to venture forth so I went and joined a narcissistic support group on Facebook out of interest , just to see what I would find. My thinking on this had to do with the recommendation that I " go into the swamp, and waid around in it for a while" to look at my own behavior.
This may have been one of the best things I've ever done especially with what I've learned so far. What I discovered in that group and why I was compelled to stay there, were many of the things discussed in this post. What I wasn't ready for was the hostility... and in this case mainly directed at men.
This was another test of Fire... and I certainly wasn't alone... since apparently there had been a trend growing they called "men bashing" since there were mostly women there. This group had something like 60000 members so quite a large group of women.
Of course everyone who was there or shall I say the legitimate ones were there to gain support and everyone was in a different stage of either being in an abusive relationship or they had left an abusive relationship so everyone there were victims. In the technical sense of the word I was a victim to, that it was really easy for me to spot people in different stages of recovery starting from still being in an abusive relationship, to just about to leave an abusive relationship, and those who left and we're free of it.
And having had at least some practice with that here, I began to reach out and try to connect with people and relate experiences or information as needed but trying to simply connect. And every time I did Reach Out they were always plenty of ladies there who were willing to talk, share experiences, and a couple who ask me to befriend them on Facebook. Actually several who did yet I was not seeking that myself I just allowed people to ask me without pursuing anyone myself.
However, I ran into something that I had never experienced before, at least not on this level. The seem to be a topic of discussion mainly amongst the few men who were there.... and that topic was about men bashing. I might use a different term that term would be contempt. This I found was one of my sources of rejection sensitivity.
Haven't gone through real bonafide rejection dysphoria in the breakup of my last relationship.... makes it easier for me to tell what I'm just sensitive to.. but yet fully aware of my feelings and what they are? The one thing that I absolutely told myself that I wasn't going to do was to get into a fight with anybody, and I saw that happening between some of the men and women there.... but mainly it was instigated by the women. When I say that I'm saying only a few but they simply appeared to be on the lookout for you. It seemed that no matter what you said, or how you said it.... the small group was there watching and they come out and numbers and attack you. Mainly when I say attack, they were there to discredit what you say. No matter what you said, no matter how nice you said, it seemed there was no way of changing how they felt or their mission as it seemed?
When you read things like "most men cheat"...." there are no good men out there"....."men can't be trusted"... it is difficult not to say anything because you know that isn't true. But even simply reaching out to the ladies that actually welcomed the interaction, out of nowhere there'd be someone who would jump in to discredit you, accuse you of something you weren't saying" and completely misinterpreting your intentions, even to the point I've simply coming out and calling you anything from a " psychopath"..." troll".... and a "Narcissist"...simply for saying that you were in a relationship with an abusive woman.... and Wham-O... they were on you. Sometimes in numbers... which was really kind of surprising. That experience actually taught me a lot of things and not necessarily about myself.... since I'd had plenty of good interactions with lots of ladies and no one was having a problem.
And since this was being discussed openly and even acknowledged by a lot of the women there that there was a group of women cruising around in the site just looking for men to pick on. Basically... which I discovered myself.
I experienced this enough times.... that it really was quite a rejection... especially if you're actually and literally agreeing and joining them in everything they're saying?
The most surprising one to me was a woman who was really having a hard time.... and I made one effort to reach out to her.... and it was immediately thrown back in my face. And before I had even had a chance to finish a response to her which I was not going to fight her on the way she felt or even want to continue by simply saying that I was sorry she felt that way, I understand and I will leave her alone basically. That was just my first touch or attempt to reach out and communicate with her.
But before I even had a chance to finish... she sent several quick responses... that went something like this:
"I don't know what you're talking about, what are you saying?"
" leave me alone!!!"
"Psychopath!!"
Before I had a chance to respond her. But the thing that triggered her was what I said before, said she was listing as just one of the things that she had dealt with with this individual she was... had to do with him having ADHD.
In my thinking about this and how to approach her I was not about to defend her apparent boyfriend's actions whatsoever. Not only that... I was simply trying to relate something very similar to this thread and the things that were said. Family that the behavior is unacceptable, there's no excuse for it.... and it quite possibly could be other things as well? Since you seemed unable to figure out what she was saying and I thought I might have the ability to help her sort it out. The second I said that I had ADHD... and that I knew and understood what she was saying. The next response that came from her read something like this.
" well he has ADHD which causes you to lie...soooo?" Which was her basically saying... and so do you so therefore you're probably lying too. LOL
That's when I said it could be something else you know... ADHD doesn't cause lying. and fundamentally what you just did was call me a liar? That was a big mistake!
That's when I was going to just leave her alone and walk away... and then she shot me those other responses which ended up with me being a psychopath... and the last words were leave me alone.
Before I had a chance to tell her that's what it was going to do without her saying it, and I completely understanding what was happening...and understanding she was probably not ready to deal with a man with ADHD.. in the state that she was in.
This was a really curious interaction and why I brought it here. I certainly wasn't going to pursue her as I said I was already made that decision before she responded. And yet being called a liar and a psychopath in one fell swoop... after genuinely making an attempt to reach out and relate with her.... was really interesting to me in terms of this reversal of abuse coming back to me at the same time.
I didn't need any explanation or any more of that to understand what was happening.... put the words on my therapist was ringing in my when he said " the abused takes a piece of the abuser with them"... in that moment I clearly saw that this is what was happening. Her response was an emotional one and was completely irrational... and even the firing back these accusations before I had a chance to even respond... with the final conclusion on her... that I was a psychopath... what's a curious one indeed. And it was quite a rejection I have to say... and it did sting a little because it wasn't warranted. But I also remember reading how this was happening on that site and I had just experienced it myself. It wasn't the only time I experienced it... there were several other incidents.
But overwhelmingly in the majority of the interactions, or at least neutral and even favorable... to the point that I got into some really good discussions with a few of the ladies and actually made some friends with a couple of them.
If I didn't know this before I certainly know it now.... you can't please everyone all the time... and sometimes with some people there's no pleasing them. My intention was not to please them, or even form a new relationship... much like here I was trying to do my best to keep my answers short but of course that's a problem for me. I did however manage to bring it down to sometimes only a sentence or two. And as anyone here who said read my post that was quite an accomplishment! LOL
I guess practice makes perfect... but moreover I already knew what I wanted to say. Much of my responses I had already work through it before then much of it I done here. I was able to get down to the nitty-gritty quickly without a long explanation.
And I don't know if this was up a good response or not to that one interaction but I hadn't nothing else I could come up with... so I simply said " feeling's mutual, much obliged" and I left her alone as she requested.
This entire experience was interesting since this topic of reading things or misinterpreting things was certainly mention them brought up... but as my purpose for being there mainly... was diving into this swamp again to revisit it to see what I could see.
And I really did learn a great deal that I'm still processing through... but the complete mixture and types of responses... we're so widely widely varied. From psychopath... to getting contacted by a couple ladies who said that I spoke to them, and what I said it really helped?? There's only one way to reconcile that... which I did see in the moment.
You cannot argue with someone's feelings or the way they see you no matter what? I don't think I'd ever been in a room per se... with so much hostility towards men. Being my minority on the receiving end like that.. was a very interesting experience.
And in terms of this post here which is what I came back to had to do with rejection dysphoria or just rejection in general was really good practice for me in checking myself, checking in with my feelings, and thinking about what I was going to say. And that was in direct confrontation with hostility that was unprovoked... simply do did gender.
And as far as this original post about... attacking someone finding them up against the wall and yelling in their face...
What I experienced in that one interaction was probably the verbal equivalent of that? It was so out of scale and so out of the norm... that it even surprise me.... especially with the cherry on the cake... of being called a liar and a psychopath.. simply for mentioning ADHD. It was the one and only time I did that for sure... and that was a valuable lesson. It simply showed me how people form an opinion an emotional reaction by simply not mentioning a "trigger word"... and then nothing after that that I said was heard or understood.
And since that was the only time I got such a overreaction.... but nothing like that before, also showed me how powerful suggestion and Association is... to any past abuse. And the last thing I was going to do was get defensive or fight back or try to change your mind.
Simply getting rejected repeatedly and sometimes quite strongly with a great number of innuendo an out-and-out name-calling.... was also validated by most of the men there, including one gentleman who said he was never coming back there again because of the hostility that he was receiving.
Men bashing... is the term that used.
Anyway, I just wanted to come back and check in again... and just report back things I've learned... but was really fun for me was to read my own comments now in hindsight which really made me smile.
I'll check in from time to time I'm sure... I'm never at a loss for things to say. LOL
J