Let me preface this post by saying that I don't believe in anything supernatural. I have no religion, and I am not in any way (even vaguely) spiritual. I'm being facetious.
So this morning we set out early and drove almost an hour away to an apple orchard. One of those "you-pick" agri-tourism outfits where you pay for a basket and you let the kids tear through their orchard having fun picking apples. We do these kinds of things mainly because my wife was at one time a professional photographer, and it is a good backdrop for fall pictures of the kids.
So we are headed out there and I'm listening to the radio in the car. Most of the time audio in the car is a Disney singalong CD or my wife's country station, but every so often I can get away with listening to something else. For whatever reason I'm in a mode of thought where this sends a message but first from the radio comes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCUXR3ept00
And immediately after that:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HH3ruuml-R4
Eh? Maybe I'm being emo and trying to find messages everywhere. Right after the second song: commercials. First commercial? A law firm that specializes in amicable divorce.
Thanks universe, thanks.
Love the one you're with? Yeah.. there are a few great reasons to make sure that happens:
umm..
Submitted by Standing on
Thank you.
Submitted by jackrungh on
I appreciate that.
The crew
Submitted by MelissaOrlov on
I'm assuming the crew you posted is yours...so, so cute! Having young kids puts a strain on all marriages, whether or not ADHD is a factor. Solid research shows that partners become significantly less satisfied with their marriage after the arrival of children.
If I had to do it over again (as the non-ADHD partner) I would make sure to put a whole lot less emphasis on "orderliness" and getting things "just so" and a lot more emphasis on making sure that every single day includes some sort of show of warmth and love to each person in the family. And since the only person I can "make" do that is me, that would mean that I would make sure that everyone (even my partner who was giving me a hard time) felt well-loved BY ME. "Efficiency" is only important in a relationship insomuch as it supports "safety" and paying the bills. Beyond that, having fun, appreciating the special spark of each person in the family, and feeling loved is what it is all about.
I wish you the best of luck as you seek to 'love the one you're with" even if she is telling you it's black when you know that it's white!
Here Here :)
Submitted by c ur self on
Now that's the right kind of empowerment! You inspired me...
I think I will text my grown children tomorrow and tell them how special they are...Although I think they are already wondering what got into their Father the last year or so...
Yes. That's the crew from the
Submitted by jackrungh on
Yes. That's the crew from the same morning at the apple orchard. She's taking the photo and I'm behind her making silly faces to coax out the smiles.
Oldest boy is nearly 6, diagnosed pdd-nos (high functioning autism). Four year old girl is a complex combination of... something. Tested on the spectrum, then didn't, then did. Also seems to have ADHD symptoms of hyperactivity and impulsiveness. Wicked smart and presents the willful/brattiness of kids who are gifted. I see the most of myself in her. Nearly-three year old boy is a joyous, goofy toddler, and the four month old wont sleep for longer than about an hour. I get up 5-10 times a night and 1-2 of those times I have to bring him back to our room to nurse.
I have followed and am aware of the research on children and marital happiness. I didn't need that research to understand the reality.
Hopefully we can both get more on top of ourselves and our crazy life so that we can begin to feel more of a love. She doesn't seem to ache for the loss as much. I can't figure out if that is just life being too crazy for her to even begin worrying on that plane or if it is much scarier. She often dismisses my furtive attempts at connection as silly or annoying. I try to think about what her love languages are, and often come away confused. More than anything it seems like she isn't seeking any of them. This kind of stuff needs couples therapy.
I don't know that it's white. She's telling me it's black and when I really think about it I know that her assertion has a much greater chance of matching reality.
Thank you for the encouragement.
It's just being a mother...
Submitted by c ur self on
Being a male also, who's #1 love language is the same as you stated your's is, makes my input immediately prejudiced. But, I agree with your couples therapy assertion. It is common knowledge that a women will forsake her wifely duties for the children and call her husband a nuisance and selfish for wanting what she was crazy about before they were born?
Are we miss something here?
Yep...a little reality counseling is good for us all...Even if it is hard swallow at times...
being a mom
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
Four kids 6 years old or younger, including two with special needs? I'm surprised your wife is still breathing. I don't know her, but I'm going to guess that one of her love languages might be, "Give me more help with basic survival, gosh darn it!" I concur with your theories: life is scary crazy for her. Maybe if you can offer some sympathetic words speaking to those themes and ask nothing in return, things might start to shift.
I would second this
Submitted by MelissaOrlov on
I would second the "help as much as you can, and don't be afraid to ask what you can do to help" idea. Getting out of bed that many times a night is a good start BTW, so my hat is off to you on that one.
I'm just reviewing a few books about intimacy and strong marriages at the moment - from Harriet Lerner - one of the better writers about marriages. This one, called Marriage Rules is a good handbook for what to do right, in short, easy-to-digest bits. Very practical advice. But a counselor might also be a really good idea. Couples wait too long to seek professional help - John Gottman suggests they wait about 6 years longer than they should.
Marriages change when kids come into the picture, but they don't have to wither if you can find ways to stay connected. The fact that you are confused about her love language suggests that there is more going on here than just "busy." And your comment about "black" concerns me to. Please consider finding a good counselor...
Yeah our life only works so
Submitted by jackrungh on
Yeah our life only works so long as my job remains flexible. I work from home with rare exception. Maybe once a month I'll go into the office for larger meetings. All of our routines have been thrown up in the air in this new house, but working from home and working more or less the hours I choose are critical to our lifestyle. We built the house from the ground up with the realities of our situation in mind, so hopefully when more of the dust settles things will be easier. We moved in three weeks ago.
I typically get up with the kids and make breakfast. I see everyone around lunchtime, and sometimes chip in with dinner. Occasionally I will have evening work to do (a scheduled technical implementation often has to happen after work hours or on weekends), but most of the time I run bath time and read the kids stories before bed. Many of my peers at work leave the house at 6 am and do not return until at least 6pm. If I had to do that, I think my wife would have cracked a long time ago. The house has a furnished basement with a large common area that serves exclusively as her home school classroom. She started formal lessons with the oldest two yesterday, and it seems to be going well.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
I was typing the above comment when she came into my office. She sat down and we were just talking about the day. I was talking about being on the Adderall and she mentioned I was nicer during it, but agreed that with how I was feeling it might not be the best fit. I was talking about how it had no impact at all months ago when I tried it and the only difference was I was on Wellbutrin then. She was not aware that I was off the Wellbutrin. I ran out and hadn't refilled it because it seemed to be doing nothing. I didn't tell her this to avoid conflict and then forgot about the issue.
Well, she flipped. She has seen the decline in the months since getting off Wellbutrin, and from her perspective I have retreated into work to avoid being around to help with the family. I've been busy with work stuff but it is true that I have been using work as a way to escape from the family. This baby never sleeps and is really taxing our (mostly her) sleep and sanity. I guess I've been less and less able to handle the craziness of four kids, and launching into work as a refuge is about as good an excuse as you can get.
She scolded me like a child and demanded that I call and set up an appointment with a psychiatrist to get back on meds because she, "Can't do this all by myself." I've just spent the last 45 minutes finding one in network and the earliest I could get an appointment was next Thursday. I feel like crawling into a hole and dying.
You Need a Time Out
Submitted by kellyj on
I've been where you are before.....retreating into work, changing meds...off on prosac or the like ( whichever fits you best ) and looking for help and advise or researching by reading books or on the computer. Key words.....on the computer:) Simply getting overloaded ,over or under stimulated....even jumping into things that my wife is happy about me doing or fun activities ( which it doesn't sound like you have any time for?)
None the less at the end of all of this for me when I'm overwhelmed and on the edge like you are. Taking 10 minutes to just stop everything and walk around the block...go sit in a park and get some fresh air and do absolutely nothing.....but getting physically away from of it all even that much time to hit reset does more for me than anything else I can do.......as needed I might add even a couple or more times a day. It doesn't work for me to go into another room. I have to at least walk around the block and just not think about anything outside of what kind of trees are in my neighbors yard. lol
It does me a world of good when I'm in your shoes. Even if you've done this and forgot.....figured I mention it.
J
going outside
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
Spending time outside helps my mood, too. (And I'm on the OTHER SIDE! Ha ha ha.) It's not like my thoughts and feelings shut off, but for some reason, walking, gardening, and raking (not at the same time, obviously) are stress relievers.
I Was Going to Say Meditation...
Submitted by kellyj on
but every time I've tried that I get distracted by thinking about meditation!! ha ha
going outside works the same for me plus the sunshine (if it's out?) even without works too;)
J
Hey....one thing I just remembered. I don't have light depravation issues in the winter like I understand some people do who have a problem but........I have Orchids growing indoors and I started to notice how I would linger unconsciously in front of my garden for no apparent reason?? sometimes for 1/2 hour just spacing off and staring at them. What I discovered was that I was being drawn there everyday....even if I didn't have to water or fuss with them because it made me feel noticeably better. I was really surprised how big a difference light therapy made in the shorter days.
J
My wife actually got me a
Submitted by jackrungh on
My wife actually got me a light therapy contraption off Amazon a few months ago. A 2-D array filled with dozens of white LEDs. I'm not sure if it did anything. I got it set up and used it for a bit at my desk while working, but never could make up my mind whether it had an impact or not. Haven't set it up in my office here at the new house. Now would be about the right time of year to be needing it though.
I really like gardening in the rare instances where I find the time. I'm actually very easily able to get into Zen states in activities like that. Gardening, auto repair, some of the technical things I do for my job. Peaceful, slow-mind hyper-focus. When I exercise I can do the same thing provided I have music. Can get on some cardio machine and tune out completely. Should definitely be doing more of that.
Excersise!!!!
Submitted by kellyj on
It's the magic cure for everything! I feel like a slug lately but when I exercise 3 times a week min. it seems to cure everything that ails me....your brain is just one more organ in your body soooo ............you probably know the rest . lol
J
PS...I picked up my growing lights from a industrial liquidator......old warehouse lights or parking lot lights metal halide 400 watt or 1000 watt for $20-$30 a piece. My Orchids go nuts with these and one is overkill probably....same as they use the Nurseries use. You can grow vegetables all year long and get light therapy at the same time! probably stronger than the ones you've got I imagine:)
Escape
Submitted by MelissaOrlov on
I'm going to give you some advice that you may not like to hear. Using work to escape from the family will, quite possibly, result in failure of your marriage. Don't do it! You MUST find a way to let her know that you feel scolded like a child and that this sort of feeling will kill your love for her faster than anything else. Trust me - I know this from personal experience, as well as from watching many, many other couples struggle with it.
This pattern (emotional and family "demands" and 'withdrawal' from them) is labeled 'demand/withdraw' by John Gottman and in his research, it's strongly correlated with divorce. The reason it's so toxic is that you may 'escape' into work, but in so doing you leave her with no understanding of what you are going through. She cannot, therefore, respond to your needs. Since she's not responding to your needs, you retreat further, and she becomes more overwhelmed...and will likely "demand" more from you, as she just did with the meds. You can see how this goes downhill really fast - particularly with the pressures you all have right now. (As an example, imagine the conversation if you had simply said to her back when "I have temporarily run out of meds, but plan to get some more this week..." instead of avoiding the topic all together. She might have responded "That would be great - you do so much better on your meds at helping out" and you would perhaps have been inspired, rather than afraid of the conflict that eventually ensued.)
A far better way to handle your concerns than retreating is to CALMLY sit down with her (or both with a counselor) and tell her that you have something really important to say and that you hope that she can listen to it carefully - it matters a lot to you. Tell her that you hope to be able to tell her the issue(s) you have, and then rather than have her critique them, have an open conversation about it. You might try a learning conversation about this (see The ADHD Effect on Marriage)... see if the two of you can brainstorm some solutions. So if you are feeling overwhelmed by the kids - what does that look like? Too much noise? Too many things to do? Conflicts with work? Her attitude about your role? Then discuss. AND - get her opinion.
You may both need to practice how to talk about difficult issues, so this might require a counselor (though, again, learning conversations could work.)
You know you are struggling right now - don't compound your family's problems by retreating from them so that they fester. Be gentle and thoughtful as you bring them up, but PLEASE do bring them up. You won't solve everything, but at least your partner won't be in the dark.
I think this is great advice,
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
I think this is great advice, Melissa. Unfortunately, in my situation, my husband is very averse to expressing his needs. What eventually happened, after he withdrew and withdrew and withdrew, was that he told me that ANY expectations I had of him were too many, because (in his words), he could barely take care of himself, much less provide support for his wife and children.
I'm not sure your's are words
Submitted by jackrungh on
I'm not sure your's are words I don't want to hear. Work is something I've been good at and enjoy doing, but I've never been what you would call a workaholic, and I would much rather have a relationship with my wife. I feel like I'm wasting away emotionally without a romantic connection, and work really does nothing to fill that void except kill time. In the state I find myself, I'm not even able to work all that well.
I'm not exactly sure why I'm so unable to start the conversation that it is clear we need to have. It terrifies me and I feel like we just aren't equipped with the tools to talk like that. I'm not even able to sketch out in my head what needs to be said. I feel so resistant to confronting this, but I don't want to feel that way. I'm scared that if we bring everything out into the open there really isn't much love between us, and what do you do exactly, when you married and procreated too fast? What happens when the only thing that the relationship was based on was sexual chemistry and the romantic brain chemicals that fade in time? I long for us to be friends who actually like each other, discuss things, and have lots of connected sex rather than just exist as lonely partners in child rearing.
We were having a somewhat academic discussion two nights ago about the nature of marriage and how it had changed radically as an institution over the last few centuries. It had been instigated by discussing my grandparent's rather business-like marriage. I mentioned that one of my favorite economists is writing a book on the subject of markets, marriage, and the nuclear family that spoke to these issues (He and I are Facebook friends and he had posted an excerpt of it recently). I was going to say how I was excited to read it, but as soon as she heard the word "economist" she rolled her eyes and walked out of the room. Econ is an interest of mine that she does not share, and in the past the time I've spent discussing these things online has bothered her, but I felt like we were having an actual stimulating exchange for once. Then I felt slapped in the face. I guess getting to a better place would be having the calm discussion telling her about these moments instead of just internalizing them and waiting for some understanding to magically spring up between us.
I read ADHD Effect sometime last year and the learning conversation sounds familiar but I'd need to review my copy. I appreciate you taking the time to reply. You may not remember but I signed us up for your course last year and she refused to go, so I emailed you to cancel. Now that we are in this house I need to look for a couples therapist and try to enlist family to take care of the kids. I will review learning conversations and try to get over my resistance to starting "a talk" with her in the meantime. If couples therapy becomes a necessity, I need to set it up such that there are no concerns or logistics required of her, and it needs to involve as few demands on her as possible. The only work we've done is individual therapy with my therapist at the time, and her perception of her solo sessions amounted to what she needs to change in order to accommodate my issues. Once she became convinced of that tack, there was nothing productive to be gained from any of it.
Don't Start the Conversation in the Negative
Submitted by MelissaOrlov on
This conversation shouldn't be about how little you now have in common and how you are struggling. It should be about what you have loved about the relationship and miss at the moment - and talking with her about how the two of you might get it back - brainstorm. I suspect that if you are feeling these feelings so is she - and having you tell her how much you want to be with her in a more intimate and romantic way will probably be a relief to her. Tell her you long to be friends and see what she says (she may say she feels squashed for time to sit around and chat...in which case that is your opportunity to ask her how you can help her to create the time - since being friends who share, and connecting warmly is what relationships are all about...
You get my drift here - be positive. Build the future you want - look forward. Yes, there are problems. You're more likely to be able to solve them if you are building something together and focused on staying partners and friends first and foremost.
please think about what your wife might want, too
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
"Now that we are in this house I need to look for a couples therapist and try to enlist family to take care of the kids."
If I had four kids, including an infant, and my husband told me that he was going to get a babysitter so that we could go to couples therapy and talk about having sex more, I'd blow my stack. But maybe that's just me. Nevertheless, PLEASE try to consider how tired and stressed and used up your wife might be feeling now!
Stimulating conversation
Submitted by Standing on
I have to say... when I'm telling a counselor that I'm drowning from chasing around behind my husband and trying to tune in to his version of what's stimulating... and the suggestion is made that we have regular "date nights"... this causes me to want to scream. I am already overly stimulated by everything I've had to maintain and now I am supposed to propel myself out of the mundane to be spontaneous and creative?
I cannot tell you how many times i have been left feeling dull and simple because i had no more spark to soar upward on the latest current of air. It wears a person to a nub. Life itself drains from me when my husband does not meet me in the ordinary.
Ouicky lol
Submitted by kellyj on
I really do need to get back to my commitment and finish this up....but I hear you. what I just explained in my own long winded way to Jack was similar to this I think....just not being heard or understood first and then going from there. I've been there with my therapist at times too...thinking "wow, you really just don't get that your suggestion might be a good one but maybe at another time ( later?) right not....it isn't helping much
maslow's hierarchy of needs!!!
J
I can't imagine how tired and
Submitted by jackrungh on
I can't imagine how tired and stressed she might be feeling. I'm sure it is quite a bit. I'm sure without the zoloft in her system we would be having many more fights. Since we don't bond with one another, and we don't talk about feelings to get some support, I have no real way of knowing about her inner turmoil. All I get are the exasperated outbursts that occasionally come. What I want is a relationship with my wife where we can share these things, and we can lean on each other emotionally. Maybe then the stress we are under will be much more bearable and we will have found that together we reduce it, instead of increasing it.
If you got that I want to go to couples therapy to have more sex then I'm doing a pretty shitty job of communicating here. I don't want more of the kind of sex we are having now. I want a relationship to grow and strengthen, and the lots of **connected** sex that I'd love to be having is an effect of that bond. Believe it or not a bunch of detached, emotionless sex is pretty damn meaningless to me and in my experience I am not in any kind of minority among men. We may express and feel love through sex to a greater extent than women, but without the connection there is no point.
A few days ago she was buying showy pillows for the living room couches and came into my office to ask if she could spend quite a bit on them. She made the comment that she would make it worth my while later if she could get them. I was dumbstruck and could barely look at her. I told her to get whatever pillows she wanted to get. I nearly told her to get the hell out of my office. I did not collect "later."
Connection and Then Sex......Jack
Submitted by kellyj on
I thought I'd better chime in here and give you my thoughts since I'm the only guy here currently with ADHD.......What I said to you earlier about taking a break and hitting reset was talking about "in the moment" to clear you head if you feel like your going to lose it or become overwhelmed with emotion like it sounded like what was happening. But....in the bigger picture....and what my wife and I have had to do was find a way to reset in a similar way...more like saying "let's stop, take a deep breath and back up...back off....and start over from the beginning." And then start that calm positive conversation that Melissa was talking about. And then be prepared for what ever she does.....meaning, this might not work the first time out. All she has to go by is how you've been and she's going to expect you to do the same thing no matter what you say or do. Rewording this.....if she doesn't trust you for what ever reason (and it could be many) nothing you say or do is going to change her opinion of that in that very moment....you need to expect to get shot down and then be prepared to live with that feeling ( of being shot down ) so you won't go off and retreat and then approach her again ( later!!!!!!!) from the same open handed offer you did before. I'm not saying you need to be a punching bag or set some new precedent of being the berated "hen pecked" husband .....I'm saying that if there is a unhealthy pattern between you two and one of them is in the communication itself that is preventing some kind of open dialog that involves trust....then you'll never even get to first base in ANY conversation you approach her with. And I've come to learn pretty consistently that the problem is usually not the one that's being discussed.....again meaning, if there is a trust issue somewhere and like in my example....has to do with the way your conversations always end up every time you try and speak to her.....she's probably not going to say " I don't trust you because XXXX and therefore everything that comes out of your mouth is meaningless!!!!" And she might not even intuit this in herself as to why she is feeling the way she does and her response to what's wrong quite possibly would be "I don't know?" I've learned that " I don't know" sometimes is exactly true.....and sometimes it's also saying " I don't want to talk it about" or am ready to talk about it......which usually means theres something she doesn't trust in the latter version. Walking out of the room, rolling her eyes ( that's a really bad one too...you shouldn't over look the significance of eye rolling unless a person just has a persistent pattern of that in general...also not so good in itself as means of communication on that person's end)....and even offering up sex as a barter all indicate that she has given up in some way.....not in the entire relationship maybe but more with you or something that your doing in a more specific way. And it very well likely could be a lot of it has to do with your ADHD symptoms as a whole which is very hard to hear and very hard to accept with out feeling depressed and helpless. It could also be she's thinking more in term of how to leave or get away from the relationship too...but this could be because she's just overwhelmed and feeling the same way you are and the tendencies for everyone in those moments is to lose sight and react by just wanting to get away (more of an emotional decision instead of a calm clear "what do I really want" decision that isn't led or fueled by emotions.)
All of these thing could be true....maybe one, two....or all at the same time which might get the "I don't know" or walking out of the room response...simply not being able to give you an answer because there are too many things happening all at once that she doesn't like or trust. And there's the possibility that your dead on in what you are seeing too. She's not feeling it any more for any number of her own reasons or issues. Maybe she's not saying "I just don't love you anymore" which could also be not true but she feels this way based on emotion and mistrust ( not being able to separate the difference for herself in her head).
But you need to be prepared to hear her and hear anything she says if she's trusting you to tell you the truth and have you not react in a way that makes her feel hurt or dismissed when she makes herself vulnerable to you. You need to become vulnerable yourself and make that your offering to her.....step down and humble yourself in a real genuine way which says I'm open and ready to listen to you and I promise I won't hurt you ( in some way???) if you do. And then be prepared for ANYTHING!! she says without reacting to it.....by retreating, arguing, rationalizing, getting her to see your perspective, or wanting ANYTHING back from her in some kind of exchange. That includes stimulating conversation about economics or ANYTHING your interested in.And I'm not saying the truth as in hiding something or some secret....it's the truth of how she is really feeling no matter what it is.
And I've got to tell you something straight up from a man's perspective. I've heard the word sex in your posts a number of times and I'm with you brother.....but, you've got to get the "little general" out of the picture and stop him from giving you orders because he's only got one thing he wants and it's not "connected sex".....it's just sex of any kind period....that's why they call him the "little general". lol
I'm saying this because of two reasons I'm specifically making directly at you now. Specifically.....if your wife is offering sex as a means of barter then: a) this is some default on her end which is not the greatest sign in her ( feeling no sense of power of self worth possibly, which is another way of saying that this is where she sees her sense of power coming from) or maybe she's more casually minded about sex in general which is OK too...anything possible here
But to make my point and is what it appears like what might be happening is: that no matter what the conversation start with or is about.....it always ends up with sex coming in at the tale end. Consistently....maybe consistently and constantly!! whether you see this or not? the little generals getting his 2 bits into every conversation you have with her in one way or another and this will....or has....killed her ability to trust that any conversation in some way does not have some underlying ulterior motive behind it and it's pretty obvious to her just what that motive is.
that's one real possibility for not trusting you....again, not trusting that you are coming to her with open arms and open heart and ready to hear the truth of what she has to say and then accept it....not retreat from her.....and leave it right there. Stop!!!
The you can do this same exact thing again...hear her. And then...Stop Do not interrogate ( no leading questions ), do not negotiate.....step down and let her take the first lead....follow her and listen. don't jump ahead with your own feelings and thoughts or change the conversation to something your thnking about ( like the economics example)....stay with what shes saying even if it hurts and continue to listen and live with your emotions long enough so she can trust to keep speaking from her own vulnerable place.
I saying this as this being your first offering like I said....and expecting to get shot down. And then keep trying from this exact same place. If she's being a Turtle....your not going to get a Turtle to come out of it's shell by pounding on it and telling it what you want. You need to be patient enough and give her time enough to come out first and then you can go to step two with what you want and how you feel........
One step at a time
And the last thing in the list of steps you need to bring into this is sex because you've got to find the connection that you want first...and then talk about sex in that order.
Talking from experience and failure here for what it's worth.
J
Something Else to Add.......
Submitted by kellyj on
This is based on myself alone as an example and to add to what I just said as well. Much of the problems that my wife and I were having recently had to do with communication as I was referring to...but neither one of us were figuring out exactly what it was and with the best of intentions on both of our parts, we were not speaking the same language. In a nut shell that was a big part of it...
What I discovered about my part to play in this was had more to do with what was missing or what I wasn't seeing than the parts where I was....the missing part of what I was doing wrong?
The devil is in the details is a perfect analogy. I could easily see what parts my wife was missing from my side and I tried everything I could do to get her to see her side too.....very similar to what I was just doing with you.
I heard you when you said that going to counseling was not just about sex....I got that pretty clearly. I also knew that I had been in somewhat of the same situation with my ex-wife too ( learning from my mistakes) feeling that sex was just one thing but yet an important one for me. I believe you just as you said and I was the same way.....somewhere in the process of trying to communicate this and try and understand where, why and what my ex was saying was where all the trouble began.
But my biggest mistake in this....and even recently with my wife were some maybe seemingly minor details on my end....maybe seemingly minor to me based solely on how I see it......were not so minor when it came to my wife and how she perceived them. Again....not the parts on my end that I knew that I was doing right with every good intention......but the parts I couldn't see or even worse....I could see but downplayed them as not being important.....not taking the time to go back and second guess myself and see where I made the mistake.
In a big way...that's what brought me here to this forum...to see where I was going wrong in communication. My wife and I are pretty much on the same page on most things so where was the problem???...no underlying secrets or problems being discussed where we disagreed. Me not being overly defensive or in denial of anything about my ADHD???? But yet we fought and argued for no apparent reason???
One example of this in a recent conversation ( an ultimate failed communication I had with my wife ) I was trying to communicate something that was important to me that I had a strong feeling about and I could see that it wasn't important to her. I was simply trying to get her to see that this was one of those exceptions to the rule ( and I don't have many or express them often ). The conversation quickly went sideways and I just left the room frustrated and angry with her because I felt like I wasn't being heard. She kept throwing defenses at me ( as I do too in times like this) and blocking every effort I was making to make a simple and relatively straight forward request.....this not even a big deal in respect to the request and required no real effort on her part at all to respect. This appeared to me as her just not understanding but even deeper....a feeling that she was refusing to listen or understand and digging her heels in to be stubborn or obstinate....bating me for a fight....being selfish...on and on.
This had been a repetitive pattern with us....simple conversations going wrong?? and ending without resolution and both of us frustrated.
To end this example and to make a direct point to my last post.....which by sheer co- incidence....came up again this morning after I wrote you.
I made the same simple request....reworded it....and she heard and respected....and even made the point to say I was going back to before to make the comparison. no problem.
What's different between before and today was .....I learned and saw where my mistake was and what I was missing and was able to let her see that too...and then I made the correction. She felt like she was being heard. That was the source and she needed proof that I heard her and understood it or she wasn't going to budge and inch. She didn't say this....and still hasn't to further the point. But I figured it out on my own by looking for where I was wrong...where my mistake was....what I wasn't seeing instead of focusing on what I was.
Because of her nature...her filters...her defensive style and insecurity ( the parts I saw before) and her own reactiveness and issues ( if you will)....my manner of speaking and the language that I use are loaded with elements within it that hit on all of her insecurities and issues like a bull in a china shop.....and she would respond by being defensive and hurt but also not saying so either which is the only thing I could see. She needed me to do this whether she could say so or not....her insecurities would not permit her from seeing her side or even admit to a point where she was wrong....more subconsciously than not I think mostly.
Bottom line....I wasn't fitting to her. I wasn't reading her language and understanding what it meant....the subtleties or reading in between the lines of her reactions to interpret what they meant.....and neither did she with me. Like two people from different countries or cultures clashing in communication and misinterpreting everything every time we spoke....and then making assumptions and conclusions based solely on our own interpretations.
We both needed to heard and then trust that we were in a way that we understood. We really were speaking two different languages and that was the main point I was making to you to. I think this is part of the ADHD thing.....the part of how we don't see ourselves well compared to how others see us part. My example may be a bit different but I still think there is a component of that in it.
My problem in this was trying to get her to see her part as a way to get her to see mine.......that and not speaking up when I should at the appropriate time....not understanding her language.....and wanting or waiting for her to figure her part out before I could communicate with her. ( she definitely has here part but that was irrelevant....she was never going to do that and might not ever do it still but it's not a deal breaker for me)
I see all of this now and can now make the adjustment without compromising myself at the same time. It's easy once you learn how. ha ha
I just learned a new language on top of it too. lol
FYI: the simply request was to please respect one of my pet peeves.....not leaving the cabinet doors open so I hit my head on the corners...even though she is shorter and therefore never has this problem. See how bad things can get? She was feeling the same way for her own reasons but not being able to say it to me directly as in this example which had nothing to do with the real source of the problem.
I still can't know if this has anything to do with what's happening with your wife but this changed everything for us and it could be similar in you not seeing what's missing.....the part your not seeing on your side even if you think you can?
Good luck
J
I had to re-read your comment
Submitted by jackrungh on
I had to re-read your comment several times, and I'm having a hard time nailing down my thoughts on it. I hear you making essentially two points:
1. Listen, accept, and validate what she is saying. Don't feel the need to counter every point, fix every problem, or address every issue. Just accept her point of view and let her know that you've heard it.
2. Get your focus away from sex, because it seems like an ulterior motive.
On point number one I appreciate your comments. I feel like we have almost zero conversations where she is trying to open up or be heard. That may be due to a long history of me trying to get my point of view across or counter her statements. It may be that she has been beaten down by my challenges or my unwillingness to just affirm what she is saying without commentary. As you say it may only be possible to start having better conversations by starting to validate her perspective and stop talking.
We haven't had an argument like this in a few months, but one of the problems has been that she makes these points and I just sit there silently with nothing to say. I'm trying to figure out how to act in the future should we get into this situation. On the one hand, the type of conversation itself is not the calm one that you and Melissa have mentioned. It is her venting and me clamming up. So first off we need to figure out a way to reset as you say, and jump those tracks entirely.
In the rarer occasions where a conversation features lower tones, and maybe approaches discussing feelings, I need to think very hard about how best to validate and support her feelings regardless of what they are. These fleeting moments may be the only ground that we can use to expand that kind of relating. It is tricky because in the venting arguments I often have no leg to stand on. I've failed in one or many ways, and there really isn't anything I can say or retort back with. All I can do is resolve to act better in the future. This is often an empty promise hard to deliver on, and completely meaningless to her. In the quieter conversations about feelings and where we are emotionally, by contrast, I have more to talk about. What I'm taking away from your comment is that even though I might have something of more substance to respond back with in this second type of conversation, it is perhaps precisely the moment where I should not speak. This moment should be about uncritical acceptance of her feelings and making her feel like they have been expressed to someone who is receptive to their validity. Then and only then should mine be shared, and they shouldn't be shared as a rebuttal of some kind, but rather as equally valid emotions that can coexist in harmony with hers. It has been so long since we had a discussion like this that I can't even remember what it is like, but perhaps we can get there in a quiet moment. I am becoming so miserable and lonely that seeking this kind of thing out is harder and harder to put off.
On the sex issue I am really conflicted and often feel downright angry about this characterization. Part of what bothers me so much about the "little general" stereotype is that my wife seems to buy into it to some degree. I'm sorry, but sex for me isn't about getting some kind of physical release. It isn't about scratching an itch, and it cannot be divorced from emotion and connection. It really pisses me off when it is suggested that it is some kind of male need or wifely duty. Sex shouldn't be bartered for, and it shouldn't be some kind of gift that women condescendingly give to their men. Sex being given or withheld as reward or punishment is beyond messed up. If I want to slake a biological lust I can take care of that on my own. Sex offered in this manner, or sex entered into with only the goal of each person getting their personal pleasure efficiently satisfied is exceedingly depressing. If you accept such an offer because you are starving for some kind of intimacy, I can say you inevitably feel WORSE afterwards. You realize that you sought it out in desperation for some kind of spark, and all you got were the motions devoid of any light at all. You feel like a man dying of thirst who encounters an oasis of water that does absolutely nothing to quench that thirst.
Sex enters a lot of my commentary because it is not only an expression of the connection that I so long for, but it can be an act that strengthens that connection. If your love language is physical, sex can be a way to give and feel more love. It seems that many women need the connection to promote good sex, and many men need the good sex to promote connection. Given that, men need to understand that sex wont do much of anything to fix relationship issues for most women, and women need to understand that emphasis on having sex is not always some crude desire for most men.
As I said, my wife seems to hold a lot of these notions about sex. She often thinks about it "casually" as you said. So I do not really reject your advice that sex not be a primary focus. Me pressuring her for sex is not a central theme or issue in our relationship, and her sometimes-callous rejection has made it such that I have largely given up initiating. Sex is not brought up in most of our conversations/arguments, but I do know that she sees the lack of it as one of my concerns. Because she is inclined to see it as something being asked of her rather than something we can share together, I essentially agree with you that it will necessarily be a secondary effect of some other healing.
"I long for us to be friends
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
"I long for us to be friends who actually like each other, discuss things, and have lots of connected sex rather than just exist as lonely partners in child rearing."
I think this was the line that jumped out at me from one of your earlier posts. I believe you when you say you want intimacy and connection and you don't want unconnected, casual sex. But I also think that at this point in your wife's life, she probably feels as though she's being sucked dry by all the demands on her mind and heart and body, and so being asked to work on reforging a deep emotional and physical connection with you is not a high priority for her and isn't likely to be for a long while.
I have a suggestion: ask your wife if she'd like you to find a babysitter so that she can have time for herself. If I were a mom of four, I'd want to be alone sometimes!
"But I also think that at
Submitted by jackrungh on
"But I also think that at this point in your wife's life, she probably feels as though she's being sucked dry by all the demands on her mind and heart and body, and so being asked to work on reforging a deep emotional and physical connection with you is not a high priority for her and isn't likely to be for a long while."
I think you hit the nail on the head here. She is often too exhausted from the day with kids to have anything left. I will often try to cuddle with her in bed after everyone goes to sleep, and she just doesn't want to be touched. She was never a huge cuddler to begin with, but especially not so after a day of children climbing all over you.
Honestly I think one of the reasons it is so bad recently is the baby. Our four month old will. not. sleep. He seems unable to go more than about 45 minutes without needing to have the pacifier put back in his mouth, or his mobile turns off, or he needs to be changed, or he needs to nurse. It is incessant, and it is driving both of us nuts (but obviously with nursing and being on point during my work hours she bears the brunt). The baby needs to get out of this damn phase, to be sure.
In fact she is so exhausted today that I'm taking off work to bring our daughter to gymnastics while she gets a nap in. I doubt she has attained REM-sleep in months.
On a lot of this I can be patient. I have been patient for years of this kind of disconnected relationship, and I'm coming here because it hurts enough emotionally to feel the need to find some outlet. I'm worried about just how long a while it will be before she can come up for air from this insane period of motherhood. I'm open to talking and thinking about ways to make her burden smaller. We need figure out a way to balance all of this and not wait for some future time to be happy. For a long time I just kept telling myself that once we got into the new house we could seriously begin to heal. We've only been here for three weeks, but that kind of mantra is dangerous. There is no silver bullet, and no amount of, "When we have X, everything will be OK" thinking is a good idea. We have to make it happen.
There seem to be a few teenagers in the families that are building houses all around us. The babysitter suggestion would be a good one to float. We've talked about getting a maid service once thing settle down here. If I climb the next rung of the corporate ladder a supplemental nanny might be in the cards.
I understand your frustration
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
I understand your frustration. So what I'm going to say might or might not make you feel better. If I were your wife, I would feel as though my body was not my own, and I would have been feeling that way for approximately 7 years (starting when pregnancy symptoms began before birth of the first child, continuing now). If your youngest is like mine was, your wife might be nursing for a few years. If your youngest is like mine was, he or she won't sleep through the night until age 4 (yes, 4 YEARS). And children can be wonderful, but, as you probably know, they're takers, for a long time. Moms and dads put huge deposits into the "bank" and it's a long time before they can make withdrawals. I think what your wife needs now and will need for a while is for you to be making deposits into her bank and to not be making withdrawals. I think that finding ways to reduce the burden on her is a great way to make deposits. (I also think it's important to prepare yourself for this being a long haul. Because parenthood is. As my mom likes to say, "Little kids, little problems; big kids, big problems.") Being partners in child rearing, as unromantic as it sounds and as insufficient as it might be given that your children will grow up and move away some day, is, I think, crucial for you and your wife now.
Seconding RR
Submitted by sunlight on
I want to second RR on the point that, as the children get older, the problems don't go away - instead they change and get bigger (certainly more expensive). And with 4 young kids plus, I think you mentioned, home schooling, then it's a wonder she can find the bed rather than falling asleep on the floor on the way to the bedroom.
"friends who actually like each other, discuss things, and have lots of connected sex"
There's an old saying that if you want to ruin a good friendship, have sex. Get a nanny if you prefer her to focus on you rather than your family. She's your wife not your friend. You're asking for everything - it sounds as through she is supposed to be wife, mother, friend, lover and companion who effortlessly provides earth mother parenting plus connected sex while she has a few hours off from perfect mothering. Nobody can do that for long, not man nor woman. While you are concerned about what you want from the relationship, she is worrying about the kids' meals, laundry, lesson plans, whether she has the reading list ready for tomorrow, how they will cope in high school and what all those medical/dental/vacation bills will mean for retirement and their college funding. She probably does want time to herself and to just be left alone sometimes instead of discussing the theories of marriage, even though she may not exactly say so.
Going to push back a bit
Submitted by MelissaOrlov on
I hear a lot of people suggesting that because a wife is so busy with kids that the husband should, in essence, 'deal with it.' While I totally agree compassion is necessary, and helping out in whatever way possible (and helping more than feels comfortable) is definitely the way to get started to feeling closer, I have to push back on the idea that a woman should not be expected to be a good partner because she is too busy.
I have seen too many marriages suffer significantly from that...including my own.
Connected sex isn't "optional" in a good relationship, it's just as important as all that mothering stuff. You don't need to be having sex all the time, or even every week...but some sort of intimate connection will get you through a whole lot of what life throws at you as a couple. And if you can't have sex right now because you aren't connected enough, and aren't getting along enough, consider it the canary in the mine. Things are definitely out of whack in the relationship, and it's time to fix it.
Too many men do what RR has done - clam up, escape into their work, move away from the 'problem' (their lack of comfort in the relationship). This is a family that has more kids than it has currently figured out how to handle and this is a crisis. RR needs to take responsibility for this by committing more time to the family that he helped create - or perhaps more resources for child care and spelling his wife so she gets some mental health breaks - or both. He needs to sit down with her, acknowledge the INCREDIBLE amount of effort she is putting in, tell her that he knows that the relationship they have now is a new one (different from before kids) and that he would like it to be happier for both of them. Then the two of them together need to talk about what they each need and brainstorm about how to get it. A counselor may be needed to help. This won't be "free" for RR or his wife. Each one of them will have to give up something in order to get this straightened out. Without knowing either of them I would guess he will need to take on even more time with the kids, and she will need to give up some control over the kids and share the childrearing more. She will probably also have to make an extra effort to pay attention to him, even when she is tired, and he will probably have to work very hard not to hide or escape from the pressures they are feeling.
Once you have kids you NEVER have the same relationship that you had before kids. Your marriage transforms into something new, and it's up to you to make it happy - no one else will do it for you - not your partner, not your kids...no one. RR - you DO have some control over this - but you'll need to stop worrying about what you don't have...and start cREATING what you want. Hopefully you will do this along with your wife so that the two of you are in synch enough to enjoy yourselves somewhat. You want to be more connected? What does she need to feel more open towards you? How can you give it to her? Think about when you were dating...you wouldn't have said "I'll just go tell her I want more of X..." and expect to get it. You would have thought long and hard about how to please her so that X would simply come your way. Same applies now...but more so. You are married - she needs to know
And along those lines, I will tell you what I wish I had done differently as a parent (and I was a spectacularly good parent, everyone in my family will tell you)...I wish I had spent more time just creating joy for all of us- or even not resisting joy (just being in the moment more)...being much more relaxed about what was happening around me (rather than very organized and always trying to get things under control.) This is particularly true for my relationship with my husband at the time. He became another person in the family to organize...this didn't sit well (at all) with him, and really hurt our relationship.
This "organizing" direction is standard issue in families with young children and particularly in families with young children and at least one ADHD adult. It feels "absolutely necessary" and is easy to justify. Nonetheless, over the years I have developed the opinion that it is hurtful to the family. BOTH partners should do their best to counteract it by overtly paying attention to the RELATIONSHIP between them, rather than the things that need to be accomplished.
"I wish I had spent more time
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
"I wish I had spent more time just creating joy for all of us."
This is a worthy goal, but I feel as though it's also another item for mom's to-do list and thus another thing that, when she doesn't attain the goal, will result in her feeling inadequate.
By the way, I, like many mothers, was the person who was responsible for setting the household's emotional temperature, and boy, did I ever get pushback when I wasn't in a good mood and had the temerity to allow that bad mood to show itself to the rest of the family. My husband didn't withdraw from and then eventually abandon me when the kids were little and I was trying to always be in a good mood; he ditched me when I had the nerve to say that things weren't working out very well.
The To Do List
Submitted by MelissaOrlov on
You're right. It IS another item for the to do list for BOTH partners. And, I would argue, should be at the TOP of that 'to do' list. Because if you don't do this item, you end up wondering why you're together in the first place. The times of joy you have in the relationship are what allow you to feel like partners when confronted with the hard stuff. Drop 15 other things off the list, but make sure this one is on it.
I'm so glad you said for both
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
I'm so glad you said for both partners!
Pulling This All Together
Submitted by kellyj on
Rosered just made a good suggestion that you agreed with.....now you do the same thing on your own without having to ask her. Intuit or ask yourself....what would she really need right now....not necessarily from you but based only on what her needs are. I'd come to her with the suggestion and have already found a sitter and have them lined up waiting in the wings and ask her if this would help you right now. I'd ask first though. Even if she has other ideas its the thought that counts here and showing that your thinking of her needs in some way. That might be a good start. Let her know you have her back no matter what.....your a team, be a team player.
That's what I was talking about making it custom tailored to her. That's also what my wife wants as well. For me to be responsive enough to know what she might need and know what she doesn't want ( from me) but not to make up her mind for her and act unilaterally but as the partner of a team which in your case involves your children too. Good case in point.
J
I Can't Tell You Much I Can Relate With Everythin You Just Said
Submitted by kellyj on
If not now then at some times in my past.....every bit of it including your thoughts and thinking about sex. I sort of guessed or intuited as much in context to what you've said before.
OK here's my thinking right now....for you and how I approach this stuff myself.
As far as the sex thing goes.....I've still never answered all of these same thoughts or have answered them for myself completely....some of the things I've come to understand or learn better but at the end of the day....it doesn't't change things much.
I've just come to the conclusion that sex is such a deep dark mysterious place for each person and it's attached to so many things and issues a person might place on it ( many layers!!) that I've stopped even trying to guess the whys and hows for someone else...only that it is.lol There's just too much of this inside a persons head to figure out let alone for myself! you've heard of different strokes for different folks? that's what they're talking about?????
But somewhat in the same way I was saying the same thing like my example with my wife. I could see the problem...no problem!! What I couldn't see was that the problem or source was originating from me.
Let me say this a different way. I could see my wife"s issues.....I even understood them to a certain degree because I have had the same ones myself ...if not now for a certain degree...some time in my past. And in many ways I've figured them out to a point or found how to adjust to them....book knowledge, therapy...cognitive understanding.....right? Or even to the point of having been in the same situation before in my past and knowing where the problem was. But that was based on a different time, a different place and a different person.....and my perception of it now and in the past...experience OK?
This is what I had to draw off of and try not to do or make the same mistakes again. I can see my wife in many respects has not done what I've done to a certain degree...but she doesn't have ADHD and hasn't had my experiences either which pushed me to figure these things out as much as I have had to. I'm getting dangerously close to sounding like I'm ahead of her in some way or implying that I'm smarter or more experienced or whatever....I wasn't feeling that.
She was reacting to something and I knew that this was in part...a problem she has. She admits it and I've seen her in countless other situations or heard stories about it to tell me that....yes, this is not all about me.
But I wasn't how seeing I was contributing to her issues or exacerbating them......what's interesting or better, the case in point....I already had pretty much come to the conclusion that her issues were setting mine into motion and and exacerbating mine as well....which have a similar yet different defensive reaction. So I know all of this and I'm working on my part to not be defensive and defuse her reaction. Great. And we talk about it and I point to it and admit when I screw up....all the above.
but she's still acting out or acting as if I'm doing something wrong or not doing anything at all....passive aggressive, venting, throwing turd balls at me, prickly, reactive, depressed, unhappy, clingy, possessive, lot's of "what are you thinking?" type questions. Lot's of comments directed at me about her unhappiness, projecting etc....And she will admit fully that much of this is not about me but yet.....I still feel the "eye of Sauron" has cast it's gaze upon me even if she's not saying it ( if you get my reference ....and without getting side tracked....my comments like that aren't always appreciated. passive aggression is also one of my issues too) she feels I have some responsibility to her being this way and yet she will admit that she's like this anyway????? and still not directly telling me what the problem is then??and I ask her straight up and never get a real answer.....just more complaining and venting and projecting.
OK....I know this is in a huge way a big part of her problem...very anxious and fearful.....constant worrying, focused on minor details, not being able to let things go, very very impatient, sleep issues, kind of mini panic attacks.....I think theres some PTSD in there too which could be the real source for all of this. I get that and understand it to a degree....or understand it enough to be sympathetic even if I cannot fully understand it the same as she can.
Plus...I've been on this forum and intently listening and reading from all the wives her with (us) and getting a real firm and undeniable
confirmation that (we) are a real pain in the ass, frustrating, sometimes infuriateingly impossible to be around at times...and know why that is in almost everyway possible especially those particular areas that apply mostly to me even if I don't suffer from a lot of other symptoms ...in other words...tried to narrow it down as best I could for my self in particular.
So I can come to my wife with my defenses down and talk as openly and as honestly as I can about these issues and tried to leave the communication lines fully open for her at any time. I'm not grouchy or prickly and I'm very easy to approach...try to keep things light and simple because negatively really has a powerful affect on me OK?
And yet,nothing seems to calm her anxiety which only brings these things out in her more????? What more can I do???? Getting mad doesn't work...obviously. Biting my tongue doesn't work. And in my past I've had some real issues with being co-dependent and being easily manipulated in that direction so I'm not going there ( in case that's what she's doing). No it doesn't't feel like she's doing that either???? Then what he hell????
She won't talk about it or projects it back into my face ( and complains and vents) Nothing I do positively seems to work? Everything I do negatively gets pointed out to me..( eye of Sauron ) and I'm making real noticeable efforts to specifically target my ADHD issues....messes, clutter, time management etc...which she verifies. Then what???
Otherwise we get along OK...we like the same things....I focus on her and give her attention ( actually much more than I'm even comfortable with at times...saying, I'm conscious of her needs and put them ahead of mine as best I can when I see this or hear this in her language because I am so aware of all this stuff.
yet.....nothing seems to change in her. to the point of my own frustration with it and still....she can't really tell me what wrong. And offering apologies all the time as my only offering to her is both ineffective and starts going down the co-dependent path again which is really bad for me especially.
So how do we talk about it and get to an open dialog? I give up?
then it clicked.....it is right in front of me. Shes my gift from heaven sent just for me. She my own personal barometer and all of this is telling me that this is the effect I have on her. yes....she has all these issues but I just make them worse of bring them out in her. I see this clearly even if she can't. She's so used to being this way she can't see the fluctuations that I cause in her. I'm not the source but I don't do anything to make them better and only make them worse at times.
And as they become worse in her...she starts hitting all my buttons and brings out all my issues exactly the same....exactly! it's a direct one to one relationship and she's the best ADHD indicator I could ever have! She tells me exactly when I'm doing OK and when I'm not and she doesn't even need to see this. It's only important I do. When the needle hits a certain point....out come her behaviors. Time to make adjustments. I make adjustments and the needle drops. perfect!!! Mystery solved.
And to what I have to do to make this happen is custom taylored to her. Just like my example with the sex...not really having to understand all the reason why it is for another person...just being able to do the thing that the other person needs in the way they need it. And it's different for each person.
I only have to focus on the things I do that cause her needle to go up....what anyone else needs or feels is irrelvant...including all my part history with other people and all the things I might read or case studies.....meaningless. I only have one person I need to figure out and now all I have to figure out is what works and what doesn't.
And finding out this comes from an open dialog and my ability to read her...understand the hidde meanings of what she is really saying when she starts saying and reacting to me even if she isn't giving me a play by play instruction book like I want.
That's what she wants really without saying so. She just wants me to be sensitive enough and intuitive enough to respond to her needs and be able to interpret this......which does require a certain amount of focus and paying attention to these needs ( and understanding them ) to do it.
Without going into all the details......a big part of this was not seeing how I was being insensitive to her because I was basing this on my experience with other people where these same things were not an issue. I was basically discounting this or minimizing it with her based on myself and someone else which was not only my error but completely irrelevant. Also minimizing it compared to the fact that I could see these things so clearly as her issue..I was just missing the subtle differences and fluctuation that were occurring over time and not applying this to that.
I think you need to do the same thing....that's why talking about things you want or need...inclcuding sex is setting her off. She needs something from you that's she's not getting no matter what your currently doing to correct this.
Misapplication of resources my friend...
She's the best indicator you've got because no one's else's need are in question here only hers. You need to look at the fine print and pay attention to the details ( the trees not the forest) she's your barometer.
Sex is a poor barometer by the way.....back to being too mysterious and too many layers to figure out how to read it.
J