Submitted by MusicLvr528 on 03/30/2016.
First off, things are going great for our little family right now. We are finally steering our ship in the right direction after years of living by the seat of our pants. There's still something there though. I am still having a hard time with my husband's ADHD. I'm angry a lot, and resentful. I feel like the one who has to manage our household. When is the dog due for shots? When does the car need to be serviced? Where does this thing go? Where did so and so put such and such. I am often frustrated and feel as if there is an imbalance of work. My husband has been trying to assist lately in household chores but says that he has a problem doing them unless we do them together. I didn't know why this made me upset - I couldn't put a finger on it - until I saw some of his exact words in an article I read yesterday. Here's the part that stuck out:
" “I always reasoned: ‘If you just tell me what you want me to do, I’ll gladly do it.’”
I wasn’t asking my wife to boss me around. I was asking my wife to HELP ME help her. Read that sentence again, guys. I wanted to help my wife. I did. But instead of actually being helpful, I put the burden of responsibility on her to manage her life, our baby’s life, AND my life."
Then later in the article this:
"She wanted to be my partner, and she wanted me to apply all of my intelligence and learning capabilities to the logistics of managing our lives and household. She wanted me to figure out all of the things that need done, and devise my own method of task management. I never took the initiative to identify the needs of our son nor the needs of the household, and then set up whatever personal system I needed in order to get things done."
This is exactly how I feel. I understand him calling me everyday to figure out dinner. The problem is the responsibility is always on me. It is "What are we having tonight?" Not "Hey, I think we should have burritos what do you think?" In my perception, I am the manager of everything, and I don't want to be. I want to be a partner.
I tried to tell him about this article last night, but unfortunately it has a pretty inflammatory title that immediate put my husband on the defensive. He told me he had made significant changes in his life and that he is not willing to shoulder my resentment or try to fix it. The direction the conversation went made me feel small and petty, and made me want to just crawl back inside myself. As he went to bed, I told him I was sorry for the way it came out and it wasn't my intention. I asked if he was sorry and he said he had nothing to be sorry for because I brought it up. I felt like crying. I thought I read a breakthrough, instead he took it as a poking stick.
He texted that he wanted to read the article today and I sent it to him but other than that radio silence. I don't know where to go from here. Any thoughts?
I know which article you're
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
I know which article you're talking about. It really described my life, too. But I assume that if my husband read it, he'd be offended, not because it's not accurate, but because it is.
Try to expect those type of responses..Put yourself in his shoes
Submitted by c ur self on
The fact he wanted to read it is huge...Good medicine is bitter. Try to accept it, and be at peace. You've got a lot on your plate....
Peace be with you....
C
When Your Spouse Feels Like Your Mom and Doesn’t Want to Bang yo
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
When Your Spouse Feels Like Your Mom and Doesn’t Want to Bang You
Your mom probably doesn’t want to have sex with you.
I work hard at not judging. Glass houses and whatnot. But that’s a good thing, right? Your mom not wanting to sleep with you? Because, ew?
I don’t know to what extent incestuous relationships’ taboo classification is a byproduct of biological trial-and-error and documented birth defects, or something culturally driven, and everyone just sort of looked around at each other once and agreed: “Yeah, not banging family members sounds like a good rule! I’m on board! Shouldn’t be a problem because I just naturally don’t want to anyway! Because, ew!”
The reason isn’t important.
But for your marriage’s sake, being aware of this general reality is helpful. Because no matter how many times you sarcastically remind your wife that she’s not your mother and you wish she’d stop acting like it, she often feels like your mother.
This is bad for your sex life.
And, gone unchecked, a precursor to the death of your marriage.
What I Meant To Say...
You may be aware of this, and are sick of hearing about it (like I am), but I wrote a post called She Divorced Me Because I Left Dishes by the Sink which several million people read. Depending on who you ask, I’m either a genius who saves marriages, or a huge pussy whose wife actually left — not because of dishes — but because I’m a huge pussy.
A bunch of guys developed heartburn over a particular passage, and even though close to 100-percent of them will never read this, I’ll selfishly feel better having addressed — and hopefully, clarified — my stance
From the “dishes” post:
“But I remember my wife often saying how exhausting it was for her to have to tell me what to do all the time. It’s why the sexiest thing a man can say to his partner is ‘I got this,’ and then take care of whatever needs taken care of.
“I always reasoned: ‘If you just tell me what you want me to do, I’ll gladly do it.’
“But she didn’t want to be my mother. She wanted to be my partner, and she wanted me to apply all of my intelligence and learning capabilities to the logistics of managing our lives and household.
“She wanted me to figure out all of the things that need done, and devise my own method of task management.
“I wish I could remember what seemed so unreasonable to me about that at the time.”
Let’s Take a Closer Look
“But I remember my wife often saying how exhausting it was for her to have to tell me what to do all the time. It’s why the sexiest thing a man can say to his partner is ‘I got this,’ and then take care of whatever needs taken care of.”
This does NOT mean, every day of my life, my wife bossed me around. It does not mean I awaited her instruction on how I could be her little man-servant and cater to her every whim.
Here’s what it does mean:
My wife was awesome about keeping the house clean and organized. She ALWAYS did — hell, I don’t know — 65- or 70-ish percent of every house chore (dating back to my college apartment when we first got together).
Like many adults, we both grew up watching our moms do most of the housework while our dads went off to work and mostly stuck to “man chores” like mowing grass, shoveling snow, sanding and staining decks, cleaning the gutters, taking out the trash, etc.
Because I wasn’t as self-aware in my youth as I am now, I didn’t identify the imbalanced workload.
But here’s the key part: My wife — usually on Saturdays — wanted to clean the house. I would have been happy to wait an extra week or two because I don’t enjoy cleaning in the same way you don’t want to bang your parents. But I wasn’t going to sit around watching SportsCenter while my wife scrubbed toilets, and vacuumed floors, and dusted furniture, and wiped down bathroom vanities. Even I’m not THAT big of an asshole.
And the second key part: We brought our baby boy home from the hospital and if you’re anything like me, it was VERY surreal and every minute afterward for several months, you’re like: “What the hell do I do now?”
But my wife wasn’t like me at all. She talked to lots of other moms and prepared herself for some of the challenges of caring for newborns. She read the baby books. The ones Seth Rogan didn’t want to read in Knocked Up. The ones I didn’t read, either.
...
“I always reasoned: ‘If you just tell me what you want me to do, I’ll gladly do it.’”
I wasn’t asking my wife to boss me around.
I was asking my wife to HELP ME help her. Read that sentence again, guys. I wanted to help my wife. I did. But instead of actually being helpful, I put the burden of responsibility on her to manage her life, our baby’s life, AND my life. It was the most stressful time physically, psychologically, and emotionally my wife had ever been through. The health and wellbeing of her and my little son rested entirely on her being the best mother possible. And instead of putting in the work to support those efforts the best I could, I totally abandoned her to do all the “baby work” alone, while I sat around daydreaming of the future when I would be throwing the football around with him in the backyard.
We totally do that now too. My little son and I. It’s great.
But instead of mom watching from the deck with a drink and a smile, she has a new mailing address
“Women’s Work” is Logistically the Hardest I’ve Ever Done
Many sons grow up hero-worshipping, or at least modeling behavior after, their fathers. Dad watches sports on TV, and does “man chores,” and probably makes most of the money.
Mom cleans and folds their clothes, vacuums their bedroom, replenishes the refrigerator and pantry, cleans their pubic hairs from showers, washes dishes after dinner, and packs lunches.
But mom has an even-harder job.
Mom manages the schedule for EVERYONE in her family. Not just for herself, but for her children’s school, medical and extracurricular needs; her pets’ veterinarian appointments, and her husband’s stuff, too.
It’s HARD to be an adult.
I’ve lived alone about three years now with a young child in grade school there half the time.
IT. IS. HARD.
Keeping track of what he needs every day, and for coming school days, and managing my calendar to make sure I’m where I need to be on his behalf. Taking care of just 50-percent of his needs, combined with managing my house by myself is EASILY the most mentally challenging and taxing work I have ever done, and there is not a close second-place thing. And I don’t keep the place 80-percent as nice as it was when my ex-wife lived there. It’s still very challenging for me.
Sons too often grow up this way and end up woefully ill-prepared for adulthood or marriage. It’s bad.
...
“But she didn’t want to be my mother. She wanted to be my partner, and she wanted me to apply all of my intelligence and learning capabilities to the logistics of managing our lives and household.
“She wanted me to figure out all of the things that need done, and devise my own method of task management.
“I wish I could remember what seemed so unreasonable to me about that at the time.”
Hopefully you get it now.
She felt like my mom because I never took the initiative to identify the needs of our son nor the needs of the household, and then set up whatever personal system I needed in order to get things done. I just derpy-derped around all the time as if me not saying or doing anything would make life tasks magically disappear.
Combine those maternal feelings with a little bit of resentment and a little bit of boredom due to hedonic adaptation, and you’ve just prepared to perfection the She Doesn’t Want to Have Sex with You casserole with a side of You’re Kind of an Asshole gravy.
It might seem hard to believe a man could go through many years of marriage with his wife telling him about how exhausting this dynamic is for her, and how upsetting it is, and STILL not get it.
But I’m relatively smart.
And that’s precisely how I experienced it. So I know it can, and does, happen.
But maybe with the help of a great line from Bill & Ted’s Excellent Adventure, it won’t have to happen to you.
It’s your mom, dude
Bingo!!! Thanks for sharing this!
Submitted by jennalemone on
Well said. It put into words my thoughts and feelings for 40 years.
My son has new respect for me now and the shine is coming off of H. My son has the whole house and his 2 kids half time after his wife left and he realizes that for things to get done a person can't live in the present moment all the time. I listen to Eckert Toole for keeping my personal integrity in tact and Living in the Now, but daily life has to be balanced with the reality that if you are a leader, manager or a parent, there has to be some learning and remembering from the past and some plan and vision for the future. A marriage is not a party you show up at when the spirit moves you with empty hands and a smile. A marriage is a partnership where you expect your partner to bring something to the table other than a horny body and a few jokes.
I feel like a failure because I don't want sex with my husband. He has acted like a child....an Alfred E. Newman "Me Worry?" child and he thinks that is cute. He works to be cute and tries to be sexy. This all is not sexy to a marriage partner but may be sexy to a casual acquaintance. Which is very disturbing to me as my H was a traveling salesman.
"Things get done, but not by him."
He acts like he doesn't know what to do. He would like me to tell him what to do for any house project. but then acts like I am being a drill sargeant when I ask him to do something. He only wants to do creative things and I get to clean up after his messes. His areas of the house look like a teenagers bedroom and stink. He is mad at the world and takes it out on me. Then walks out of the house with a giggle and a huge smile for the people outside the world who he tells me he hates.
Then, if I try to have a "sit-down" with him about our life, he acts like "Who, Me?" The eternal teenager.
I know this is just a rant, but this hit a nerve today.
This is all so true. I wish
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
This is all so true. I wish my H's therapist would explain this to him. ADHD can be very anti-sexy, and men (particularly) should be made aware of this.
I think it's hidden because when ADHD males are "first in love" they try real hard, so their childish behavior gets hidden. But, once they're settled into a relationship, if they exhibit childish behavior that needs a "mommy," then that kills the romance.
I, too, am annoyed when my H expects me to "tell him what to do." I want him to be a man and know what to do, like all the past men in my life.
>> He acts like he doesn't
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
>> He acts like he doesn't know what to do. He would like me to tell him what to do for any house project. but then acts like I am being a drill sergeant when I ask him to do something.
>>>
This is my H. He really doesn't know how to do most things. He knows how to do things that interest him....golf, weightlifting, sports, and chess. He had no clue how to clean anything, and still needs help with many things.
He does tell me that he wants me to "be the general," but I've known from past experience, that he doesn't want to be told to do anything.
When our kids were babies, I was trying to diaper and dress the baby while the toddler still needed to be dressed. We were all going out somewhere. H was ready, but watching TV. I still needed to add diapers to the diaper bag. I asked H if he could grab a few diapers and put them in the bag. He YELLED at me and said, "Don't give me things to do." Even tho it's been more than 20 years, I still remember his exact words.....and I remember how badly I felt not being able to ask for help with the most easiest chores.
Lately, H has been after me to organize one of your extra bedrooms. YES, it needs work. We downsized our housing a LOT last year, and one of the spare bedrooms has simply become a storage room because our new home is 1/2 the size of our last home. We're far behind with this because at the same time, I expanded our business twice. So, so much focus has been on that. So, H has said that I just need to tell him what to do in that spare bedroom and he'll organize it. Fine....but I know that he'll later act like he's being oppressed or something.
It's amazing how messed up a mind can get.....
Submitted by c ur self on
My wife thinks she's the man
C
lol......do you think that's
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
lol......do you think that's because she was a single mom for most of her life?
It's several things...that's
Submitted by c ur self on
It's several things...that's probably a big part....Life and marriage will work when we accept our roles with a positive outlook in life...If there is one thing that J has brought light to in my life and what I see in so many others is this victim mentality for just being who we were created to and vowed to be....
C
RE-Living the Past....How Soon We Forget?
Submitted by kellyj on
I read this post through several times ( all of it ) and it brought to mind some things in my past that I remember distinctly. I've found that the context of the past can get pretty skewed without an accurate memory of what the past was really like when we were actually there? And how does anyone do this without including your current perceptions along with it ie: physical, mental and emotional state to go along with the memory you have? Without remembering the "feelings" you had in the moment when you did something in the past.....it's way too easy to forget what REALLY was happening and why you did anything accurately based on only what you remember of it without any other context to go along with it?
Like many adults, we both grew up watching our moms do most of the housework while our dads went off to work and mostly stuck to “man chores” like mowing grass, shoveling snow, sanding and staining decks, cleaning the gutters, taking out the trash, etc.
Because I wasn’t as self-aware in my youth as I am now, I didn’t identify the imbalanced workload.
I though about this and honestly....I can't say this was true for me? What was true was....that was how it was done and was said so up front. My mother didn't complain about her role and all that it entailed and my father didn't complain about his role and everything that he did to contribute on his end but....there were so many problems associated with this that nothing seemed to make any sense to me at the time? On the weekends.....my father (and I ) did yard work and things of that nature ie: car maintenance, house painting, building or repairing the house etc.....It never would have occurred to anyone at the time to hire someone to do these things. Are you kidding? That would be blasphemous and lazy to consider not doing everything yourself.
At the end of the week...the amount of hours and labor put in by either of my parents into their respective job roles seemed pretty even except for the fact the my moms hours seemed to never end while my Dad enjoyed some time off here and there. I saw this and was completely aware of it and felt it was not quite fair.....but at the same time, it just seemed to be accepted and never questioned and that's just the way it was? There were no overlaps in duties aside from my Mom planting roses or flowers in and around our house outside. Other than that...there was man's work and woman's work and nothing in between.
Just recently....I was going through some old books and papers my mother had saved of mine and put into a box of keepsakes from my childhood. In it....I found a few old books of interest to me when I was growing up. These books were written and dated sometime in the late 50's and early 60's and came with many illustrations to go along with the content. In three separate books about different topics.....I noticed an image that I can recall clearly as a child growing up. It was so prevalent....that I can't think that anyone from that time era could not remember seeing these kinds of images included in all manner of literature including advertising or in depictions of the nuclear family.
The image? A man.....sitting in a lounge chair, while reading a newspaper, while wearing slippers and smoking a pipe. I looked at that for a moment and went "you've got to be Fucking kidding me! What a joke!! And what's up with the pipe anyway? Most men I knew at the time only smoked cigarettes with few exceptions?" lol
To go along with it...an image of a woman.... "wearing one of those skirts that plumed out like a Ballet TuTu (with a belt size of about 18 lol) and a white blouse with a monogram on it ( some big capital letter..."L" for Laverne? lol ) and one of those doily looking aprons on that matched her outfit along with high healed pumps on standing there with some kind of food on a plate offering it to the man in the chair with a big smile on her face. The man (also with a big smile on his face) seemed so preoccupied and absorbed in his news paper he didn't even look up and notice that his wife was standing there serving him? ( I think it was cookies or a piece of cake if I recall? lol )
Again....in what alternative universe did this even exist? Not mine.... but to make matters worse...I believed it should have been and our family was just different? ( oh dear ) And yet....images like this appeared repeatedly in only a handful of books I looked through? It was as real and yet undeniably fictitious as you can imagine and right there in print to bring me back to what I remember?
In one of these books about electronics (Radios and Stereo equipment of the time )...an illustrated talking "cartoon radio" mentioned that it was every mans responsibility to learn the "ways or the future" and know about electronics in case of attack by the enemy. It didn't state exactly who that was....but it wasn't that hard to figure out since it showed two jet aircraft in combat in the air over what looked like a suburban US neighborhood and the one that was on fire and spiraling towards the ground looked like a Mig-9 and had a big red star on the tail! Thinking back again... picturing myself sitting in my room while reading this looking up going "holy shit!!"...and listening for the sound of jet aircraft over my house? If you wanted to mess with a kids mind any better than this....I can't imagine a better way to do it! lol
And yet....no one questioned this including my own parents who gave me the reading material? Why? Because it was everywhere....this was "Reality" as completely screwed up, full of magical thinking and paranoid as it was? But at the time....it was all anyone knew? In context to then....this was no laughing matter.
Usually, those memories themselves are isolated and random ones that get burned in there for some reason? The rest of it (the other 98% ) seems to be easily forgotten or not thought about at the same time?
What I have discovered through therapy as one side benefit (not necessarily a spoken goal out right) ...is how to relive the past without trying to change it or make it what I want it to be. Instead....just being there again which means trying to includes the emotions and feelings I had as well as my thinking to go along with it at the time. What I have found so useful in doing this is how to forgive myself and then others in turn when I can really do this well.
Some random associations to things said by everyone in this thread that took me back to the times in my own life like this and the things that I have learned since then. The title of this thread... "I Should Have Never Brought This Up"....is what brought this all to mind.
side note: I mentioned this in another thread, but whenever I say "I Should Have...." ....I now put the word "YOU" in between "should" and "have" to reword this as..... "Should You Have?" in a question form instead. This works in the first and third person as well as it can also be applied to what someone else did in the moment instead of You/Yourself only. Critical thinking says you have to do this in order to to consider EVERYTHING and EVERYONE else into the same context in order to do this accurately. If you are using that as your criteria...you aren't looking for excuses or others to blame....you are considering everything together in an objective context including the memories of what they were doing and saying all at the same time.
My son has new respect for me now and the shine is coming off of H. My son has the whole house and his 2 kids half time after his wife left and he realizes that for things to get done a person can't live in the present moment all the time.
A similar thing happened to me. Living in the moment as I remember it....was mostly spent trying to find something to scratch that infernal "itch" that you can never seem to find that plagues you constantly. If you've ever had a really full bladder.... and then trying to do something or talk to someone at the same time without having that distract your ability to stay on track or focus on anything else...I think that's a pretty good correlation to what it feels like at times. I remember a lot of time spent just trying to be comfortable or looking for ways to satisfy the " itch that you can't scratch". Thinking about this now...I can easily go "what an idiot!"...but then again, I've learned to manage the itch and I now know what "IT IS".
I can't apply this to then. I would only be an idiot "now" if I did the same thing again. I still find myself doing some of these things now...but I can put a time limit of them and that does seem to do the trick. I've also found ways to take the same energy and redirect into something more useful and positive including investing that into my relationship and my wife in metered doses across the board. That "all or nothing" way of doing things never seemed to work! (and it still doesn't lol )
I think it's not wrong to bring these things up...in fact..I think you should do it and keep doing it despite the initial reaction to it. That initial reactions is based on the past and that as it seems is not a reliable source to gage things by many times. If your expectation is that someone is going to process this right then and there and not react to what they know....it doesn't leave any room to think about it and come back later and reconsider why they reacted after the fact.
What they say? The lesson will be repeated until it is learned. If you never give a person a second, third, fourth, fifth chance to learn it....they never will. If you quit at the first sign of them not getting the lesson....then you are failing to consider this and it will prevent you from doing it again based on the negative reaction the other person has to it.
Critical thinking is...the awakening of the intellect to the study of itself.
As defined....Critical thinking is the intellectually disciplined process of actively and skillfully conceptualizing, applying, analyzing, synthesizing, and/or evaluating information gathered from, or generated by, observation, experience, reflection, reasoning, or communication, as a guide to belief and action. In its exemplary form, it is based on universal intellectual values that transcend subject matter divisions: clarity, accuracy, precision, consistency, relevance, sound evidence, good reasons, depth, breadth, and fairness.
In my words....it's the ability to remain objective despite the fact that your emotions and feelings are trying to control or dominate you thinking. Easier said than done!
J
Still growing
Submitted by jennalemone on
J, I read this whole entry a few times and have been thinking about it. So many pieces of it feel so familiar and cathartic.
"...the amount of hours and labor put in by either of my parents into their respective job roles seemed pretty even except for the fact the my moms hours seemed to never end while my Dad enjoyed some time off here and there. I saw this and was completely aware of it and felt it was not quite fair.....but at the same time, it just seemed to be accepted and never questioned and that's just the way it was?"
I grew up in an atmosphere of "women's work and men's work". In the generation before me, women didn't work outside the home, where there were larger families, where there were not the same helpful appliances as there are now. I and H both followed that pattern of womens' work and men's work. There were decades of Saturdays when H sat on the sofa laughing at TV while I was running up and downstairs doing a weeks worth of all the cleaning, all the family laundry and all the shopping and cooking and driving the kids to their sports activities. I have decades of resentment built up. Why couldn't H see that I was running while he was sitting? Partially because we BOTH couldn't imagine a man of the house doing housework....Somewhere in both of our upbringing, we got the idea that was emasculating....like the images of a man in an apron. H had plenty of words he slung around about what men like that were called and said he WOULD NOT be like them. My H's ego was built on him having male body parts and he felt entitled to being "taken care of" with food, sex and liesure because he "earned a living". The part about me earning half the living was invisible except inside of some distant part of myself that felt upset by his laughter at the comedy shows on Saturdays. From the beginning of our marriage, H's ego was like a third entity that we BOTH knew we had to support and was very fragile. I had been confident and energetic in my youth and able to handle a lot....so I made it work.
I lost my SELF and my integrity for the sake of a fictional character....my H's ego. Also I did it because I was taught "conditioned" to be an obedient good girl with all the warnings of retribution of eternity hell and local, familial, society, community rejection. After me graduating with a B.A., I realized it was a man's world and my degree was not a valuable as my husband's maleness and affability. Plus someone had to take care of the children and the household....and that someone was the women. That I also worked was not a part of the equation...an invisible necessity that we BOTH did not conciously set on the scale of equality in household responsibility.
Now I am letting it ALL go. His ego is in jeopardy because I am not helping to feed it anymore. He is using the silent treatment and hateful glares as his punishment to me for not catering to him like a prince anymore.
There has been a pecking order in our marriage that I willingly honored. This marriage is a testament that some rules need to be broken with common sense and intuition. I lacked the strength and courage to go against what I was taught and against cultural environment at the time. Somewhere I was taught to be afraid. I have been afraid.
I've been afraid of: doing something wrong, not doing something I SHOULD be doing, doing something the wrong way, making people not like me, making people feel badly, hurting someone, not doing enough, not knowing what to do. I tried to be the Virtuous Woman. I was making myself toe the line of old Jewish law and I am not even remotely Jewish. (aside: How come Jewish women seem to have more voice chutzpa than Protestants anyway? Is this a Protestant construct of women being quiet (feminine) servants to family?)
What would happen if I did something wrong? I would be punished with hatred, rejection, shame, guilt and hell. I was conditioned to be a good girl and taught guilt for disobeying anything or anyone who had a request. A servant to all of humanity.
I have been working at growing up. I feel so old to finally give myself permission to LIVE and let live. To let others bear their own pain of their own actions without my intervention, letting the chips fall where they may.
Jenna, I share your
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Jenna, I share your upbringing. You write very eloquently about what's at stake.
This morning I read a page or two of Lerner (The Dance of Anger) that matched what you wrote in your last post. She remarks that anytime one of the two starts to make a change, yes there will be a reaction. Guaranteed to be some disturbance of the other partner or blow back from the other partner if one start to change. Sometimes it's to up the ante, to get the changer to fall back into the old ways of doing things, she said.
"A form of de-selfing, common to women, is called 'underfunctioning' The 'underfunctioning-overfunctioning' pattern is a familiar one in couples. How does it work? Research in marital systems has demonstrated that when women and men pair up, and stay paired up, they are usually at the sme level of 'independence' or emotional maturity. Like a seesaw, it is the underfunctioning of one individual that allows for the overfunctioning of the other" (Lerner, pg 21)
Those are her italics ...and in addition, the underfunctioner in this kind of relation, must continue to underfunction if the other partner is going to maintain the self view of being the strong one. "The weaker sex must protect the stronger sex from recognizing the strength of the weaker sex lest the stronger sex feel weakened by the strength of the weaker sex" (page 22).
I'm grateful that my husband and I are in a different dynamic than the above at the present. I'll say, at present...because there's a lot of pattern there we're laying down just now in the relation & there's more to see, about how we work out how we fit together.... But neither one of us wants him to be the "weak though appearing strong" one, nor (and I thank the skies) does he want me to be weak. Or his maid. Or his mother. Now how we pull things off is a very open question. Wishing you well.
I am so leary of inviting my husband into a codependent dynamic in which I'm the overworked underfunctioner. Having certainly lived what Lerner describes in her second quote...
I'm so sorry that your husband is acting out the way that you describe. It takes courage to do the changes that you're making.
I know you know that once change begins, and it sure has for you, the only direction is forward, whatever the path forward takes you to, because there is no good way to go back to the past....so I wish you well, and the both of you well.
...I've come back a day or so later, to take out a couple sentences which I thought might suggest criticism that I didnt at all intend. And to add that I think you're tackling growth with great strength. If Lerner is right that partners after awhile fit together psychically so much that change in one can lead to resistance from the other, who wants things to remain the same, it takes a lot of fortitude for the first partner to keep growing.
<<
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
<<
"...the amount of hours and labor put in by either of my parents into their respective job roles seemed pretty even except for the fact the my moms hours seemed to never end while my Dad enjoyed some time off here and there. I saw this and was completely aware of it and felt it was not quite fair.....but at the same time, it just seemed to be accepted and never questioned and that's just the way it was?">>
This struck a cord with me. My dad worked 40 hours a week, and he did do yard work and fix things on weekends, but the moment he came home from work (5:15pm M-F), he was "off". He'd plant himself at the dinner table, eat, and relax the rest of the night. In the morning, he plop himself at the breakfast table, and mom would serve him.
My mom's day was never done. She never had a day off, even on vacations because she was the one who had to manage the kids, food, packing, unpacking, dressing, etc. In fact, she put her foot down about vacations, after awhile, and refused to go on any, because she said it was too much work for her. My dad was too cheap to spring for any meals out or anything that would have made it a vaca for her, too,.
So familiar, OWW, from our
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
So familiar, OWW, from our parents' and grandparents' generation.
First time poster tonite...
Submitted by Zapp10 on
This particular post and the following replies was a breath of fresh air for me tonite. I can so identify and then I read something that further hones understanding ADD and the misunderstandings and hurt feelins and confusion as we both swirl towards and go down the same drain...again and again.
I have followed MANY of you for 4 years now and you have been an invaluable help for me in this journey around the same mountain for the past 7 years out of a 44 year marriage. I never thought I would overcome the anger, frustration and exhaustion I felt trying to "help" my DH. ..who thinks he is doing well "managing" ADD by white knuckling it. If he is doing so well why am I at peace heading out the door in MY future? Because I have come to a point that I do not know who I am. I have devoured EVERYTHING I could about ADD. I do. it for US, for HIM and for ME. It has taken 4 years(since diagnosis) and yes in all fairness he has improved ....5% and I am being fair. How much will he improve when he doesn't believe he has it , really. Anyway, a few months ago I turned the spotlight on me.....what am I doing right and wrong? A humbling experience to discover I have a codependency issue. But for me I was relieved to have something I could work on....and it was amazing to me how so much I did was not for him...it was for me.(What can I say? He's the only man I've ever known and I thought I would grow old with him) My good intentions were wrong. Then I went after what had happened to ME in this marriage? Where had I gone? This was not his fault, it was mine. I am still in this process and absolutely loving it. I do not know where it will lead as I said I am ready for it to go either way....with him or without. He thinks I am just off having a little fun and he expects I will be back....I am doing some serious looking at myself...I wish he were doing the same. Again, thanks to the many who post here....you have helped far more than you know.
To Zapp
Submitted by jennalemone on
You have been listening to us for 4 years? I have been married to H for 40 years, not knowing what was wrong but finding that my marriage was the most difficult thing of my life rather than the joy of my life. Because being ignored and seemingly not respected is like a daily death and daily subtle rejection that you are not sure are really there. I just know that the person who I vowed to love and trust til death is not really even on my side and seems to be acting like the enemy. The anonymity of this site is freeing.
Re: still growing
Submitted by Zapp10 on
We must be related! Oh wait........we are.....through our circumstances:) This particular post (still growing) struck very close to what my voice can not say out loud. I have not spoken to anyone about our situation and the only one who knows is our daughter. During one of our "we can do this" discussions I told him that more than ANYTHING to "pay attention" to his relationship with our daughter. He adores her as she does him but she has not been happy to see the change in him and expressed concern about their future relationship. He has never treated her as harshly as he has me but his "pontificating" , "lack of listening" and being "wise in his own eyes" has worn its welcome out with her. I am so grateful that he has stepped up and done just that. She sees the change and is thrilled but she knows he will not do the same for me. I became the enemy the day I suggested that ADD may be the explanation to what I was seeing in him.
Just to be clear I can only relate to those who have a spouse in denial of an ADD issue. It is uplifting to hear of couples who are both giving it their very best and it is amazing to me that they BOTH step up to the plate. Makes me wonder what I really ever meant to my spouse or are our definitions of love completely different? How can I possibly save a marriage single handedly?
Clearing the Fog of Denial
Submitted by kellyj on
Hi Zapp 10,
It is nice to hear that the things said by others here have helped you. It's good to know that you are not alone sometimes yes? I wanted to comment on a couple of things you've said in the hope that it will give you some encouragement and somethings to look forward to. I was that guy in denial who had ADHD....but now....I'm not simply put. That doesn't mean I still am not discovering more ways or times when I'm still missing the boat....but it seems these are now fewer and further between and rapidly disappearing each time I recognize them.
But what are we talking about here? Did I not notice that I did most of the things that I was in denial of? Of course not. I noticed them....but I had already explained those things to myself a long time ago and most of what I arrived at in my own thinking came from the things I learned in my past mostly....from my family and parents. How I saw myself and the things that I did came from the conclusions and from my parents thinking about them in terms of them and what they knew at the time. And how can that not be true....they were after all.....God like creatures who knew everything and could never be wrong.. right? lol
What you said here really brought somethings to mind...
I told him that more than ANYTHING to "pay attention" to his relationship with our daughter. He adores her as she does him but she has not been happy to see the change in him and expressed concern about their future relationship. He has never treated her as harshly as he has me but his "pontificating" , "lack of listening" and being "wise in his own eyes" has worn its welcome out with her. I am so grateful that he has stepped up and done just that. She sees the change and is thrilled but she knows he will not do the same for me. I became the enemy the day I suggested that ADD may be the explanation to what I was seeing in him....... Makes me wonder what I really ever meant to my spouse or are our definitions of love completely different? How can I possibly save a marriage single handedly?
First....you can't save your marriage single handedly but you can do that for yourself which is the equivalent of doing it for your marriage at the same time. The idea or concept that you have to do something directly to have any control of it is a false one but it is what most people think (including myself before).
Second...that losing yourself or not knowing who you are comes from your own denial which is the same as I said about myself in the past. What I thought I knew or the things I believed about myself came from somewhere else not from my own process of ever doing this for myself. Once you become so disillusioned that things aren't the way they are "suppose to be" or "should be"...you've got to ask yourself.....why do I think this and where did that come from? Chances are...it is the accumulation of your entire lifetime of experiences but mostly..... when it comes to a marriage or your relationship....these things came from your own past growing up along with what you were taught to believe to go along with it.
Taking a quote from Jenna in this thread......
I've been afraid of: doing something wrong, not doing something I SHOULD be doing, doing something the wrong way, making people not like me, making people feel badly, hurting someone, not doing enough, not knowing what to do. I tried to be the Virtuous Woman. I was making myself toe the line of old Jewish law and I am not even remotely Jewish. (aside: How come Jewish women seem to have more voice chutzpa than Protestants anyway? Is this a Protestant construct of women being quiet (feminine) servants to family?)
What would happen if I did something wrong? I would be punished with hatred, rejection, shame, guilt and hell. I was conditioned to be a good girl and taught guilt for disobeying anything or anyone who had a request. A servant to all of humanity.
Holy Cow! That's a lot of people in there to answer to!! And where are all these people now I ask? Who's doing all that punishing rejecting and relegating you to Hell? I'd wager to say....it's still the God like creatures who taught you these things in the first place? If you are still answering to them as if you were still a child under their rule.....you are an adult who is still deferring to your parents instead of a adult who defers to yourself for answers?
I'd also bet....that the Man that your H is/was being with your daughter....you know..."the pontificating, wise in his own eyes" who doesn't listen well? My guess from my own experience with this would be that he's just doing what he learned in a "monkey see, monkey do" kind of way without even realizing it....but thinking it's actually coming straight from him instead?
I can tell you without question....this is what I got and it seemed extremely disingenuous and rather mechanical with no real connection being made to me at the time. Why? Because it was!!!! LOL
And in turn....when it was my turn to play this scripted role I was spoon fed growing up....I was hopelessly out of place and it felt as disingenuous and superficial to me even as I was doing it but yet, expecting that since this is what you are suppose to do....then everything "SHOULD BE FINE GOD DAMN IT!!!! Why isn't this working like it should? Something's wrong and since I'm doing my part right the way I was taught....then it must be you!!!"
And then you have the Gaul to say it's because of his ADD! What nerve!! lol (facetiously said here of course)
The fact is (and I firmly believe this now)....it's the denial of all of this that is causing the problems not as much his ADD. The ADD itself....contributed to it started back when he was young and the experiences and lessons he learned from having it (whether you know you do or not? ) that flavor or taint the experiences along with the thinking that goes along with it. That's the problem right there...not the ADD itself. Those things if this is true.....would be more in line with extremely annoying to mildly irritating just by themselves if everything else was copacetic in your marriage.
Getting rid of the denial would be my first order of business and the only way to do that is to get rid of it in yourself first. Once you change.....your H will have only one of two choices to make. Change and follow your lead.....or not?
Given the alternative.....changing (as reluctantly or with resistance) would be my first choice over the two? I think it's good to keep one thing in mind however.....if you are ahead of him in this way.....you need to allow him to have the same opportunity and time to catch up as you had in getting out of the fog. That would only be fair and reasonable despite having to wait and put up with him in the mean time until he can get there himself. That goes along with his "shooting the messenger" behavior that you described.(you being the enemy) Until he can get to a place where he starts seeing what is real.....he's likely to find the source of how he feels as being the person who burst his bubble. Hang in there.... it's never easy but....it can be done and I think this is the way to do it. Just my two bits for what it's worth:)
J
SIGH
Submitted by Zapp10 on
I am not AT ALL computer savvy. My biggest fear is typing something(which takes me FOREVER) and then hitting a wrong button and losing it. Oh! dare I say..... that just happened!
Thank you for your reply. A couple points have struck me and I will give them due diligence. If I sound brief it's because I just spent an hour typing the first reply... remember....SLOW typer and now I just expended energy I didn't need to throwing not so nice words at the computer and anyone else in earshot........because I hit the wrong button...sigh
Love the humor J and the advice.
Fog!...I like it....
Submitted by c ur self on
J makes a lot great points; Denial, and Love now there are a couple of things that can really Fog up a room:)...I understand about the typing Zapp; I took typing in the 10th grade and that was my experience; graduated and went to work with my hands and tools at age 18....22 years later they posted a manager's job....All of a sudden I had and office and a computer. Only my oldest child had a computer in our home. I could work on them a little, but had no idea about operating one.....So at age 40 I walked into my new office and decided I had better get busy learning the home keys. LOL...It took a little while but I got the hang of it.....I've lost posts like that before; it's a tester LOL....
Adding to J's comments about denial, I've determined based on my 8 year marriage a few personal incites....One person in denial = very little ability to communicate, at best slow communication, so one should make sure it's desired, comprehended, (check for understanding) and accepted...And most importantly emotions stay calm....When denial is involved you can never ever assume you are being heard.
Denial is both parties= (This has been us most of the time, so this one is easy) Most all attempts at communication or one sided. Very little will be comprehended if any. Most everything said is being heard differently than how it's intended to be heard. interruptions, loud volume, using hands and arms all happen within an instant....Fight or flight will end most sessions quickly....Only harm and further division happens, when neither party had that as their intentions going in...But, that's the sure fruit of denial....
What puts someone in denial; who normally isn't (talking about myself here) is when we decide we can speak into the life of the other party who is in denial...Last night she would not accept my feelings about something she was wanting and pressing me hard (a victim in denial is stone blind to their behavior at this point) to do for her. So I told her to just forget it since we couldn't agree. (THE EMOTIONALLY STABLE PARTNER MUST NOT ENGAGE PAST THIS POINT, UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES, NONE, NOTA!!!) (caps are my own reminder LOL). She jumped out of bed, stormed out of the bed room cursing....Now, for me to pursue her thinking there is no reason two people in love should go to bed with those as the last words of the night is the worse kind of denial (I'm suppose to be a leader, and I should be wise enough to no better by now, should!)....The only way I could help her (and myself) in that moment was to do what I did....Take a breathe, pray, roll over and go to sleep. The fruit of pursuing her in the past 8 years (my denial) cost us no sleep, and days without speaking....(Trying to speak into a closed mind) What happened this time?....Same as what happens when I'm able to be at peace with her being her....She just called from work, with how was your day? And all the pleasantries, she never mentioned it....
Now do I like this? What do you think? LOL....But as long as I live in and face the reality of our difference's and recognize and accept that blank defensive stare and posture that say's nothing you could say matters!....I;m a rock, I'm an island.....And walk away then it's the best I can do for both of us...
C
I agree with everything you
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
I agree with everything you wrote, C
I've wondered why stormy sessions can happen right at the last minute of the day. They have at our house.
I can see in them, that when struggle shows up right there at he end of the evening, I can go into Madame Self Defender or Madame Clarifyer. I've got those old triggers, all right But there's also something coming from him, right there at the end when we have these right at the last minute seesaws...it feels like he's driven to wind it up....needs to get out one good huff, before winding down. Some energy discharge? Just my impression. We human beans are a piece 'o work. Lol hope your wife figures out how to get herself back to bed later
Dr Amen
Submitted by Zapp10 on
Dr. Amen has information on that exact thing you are talking about. Extremely enlightening AND HELPFUL. I, myself, just found it a month ago.
Thanks, Zapp. Dr Amen has a
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Thanks, Zapp. Dr Amen has a lot online. Can you help me navigate to what you saw?
7 types of ADD?
Submitted by Zapp10 on
I am not computer literate so I can't do links but I found a site that contains the info. I may have been mistaken attributing it to Dr Amen but who cares because it is SO informative. It is on ADDitudemag.com. Search for 7 types of ADD. It references how the ADD mind plays these games, unintentionally and how to recognize it. I found it very useful along with looking at my own behavior that simply needed to change(for the better of me and the marriage).
I am coming to see that until I work out the "baggage" of my own life first I cannot be of any use to really , anyone. My goal is not to save the marriage neither is it to leave. I am not 20 anymore nor 40 or 50. In what lifetime do I intend to be the me God had in mind? When I think of how my spouse sees himself through my eyes it isn't good. And vice versa. No way to live. I love the times I see glimpses of what I love about him. And then come the more frequent, draining times that "clocking" him would be , dare I say, sweet!
Thank you, yes the 7 types
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Thank you, yes the 7 types are on Dr Amen's site.
I agree with your approach, Zapp.
I was encouraged by my upbringing to think I was supposed to fix everything for everybody, especially other people's frowns, complaints, being p.o.ed and screwups. L.O.L., was that a blind alley
Upbringing
Submitted by Zapp10 on
Same here on being raised. I do believe that we are the product of intentional but also unintentional things in our childhood. I only came to understand this with my own 2 daughters. The things children can quietly surmise can be way different than the intent or there really may have been no intent at all. I look back and know now I could have done so much better but ,at the time, I did the best I knew. It is hard to let go sometimes of the guilt ....but knowing better leads to being better and THAT is a welcome reprieve.......I wish my spouse would see that knowing about ADD (and understanding ADD is behind his actions/behavior) would be a relief(?) and opportunity. I f I am willing to learn on my part about this is it no surprise I expect him to do his part?
Now....My thoughts about those actions.....
Submitted by c ur self on
They can't see it, or if they can, they can't control it when it's happening, they usually hate it after the fact....They feel hopeless to some degree (reason for no apologies most of the time)...Especially if we don't give them a reason to justify it in their minds....(defender; Clarifier etc..)...
When she called from work; she said a few things, when she was telling about her morning (I was away and busy)...she made sure to tell me she listened to the bible on tape for 30 minutes. She kept trying to remember things, and was very sweet....I just listened....And right when I was about doze off last night I heard my phone text...So I looked at it and all that was on there was this....xoxoxo.
This part is just who I am...For me; If I thought a wife could fill all my needs and I had no other hope than what this world had to offer. I would step away and let her live out her life w/ her stuff and desires....But, I'm not home yet, and nothing can take away from God's love through Jesus Christ for me....No wife, and no thing:)...I'm a loved Son. And I'm here by design. Everyday is a mission; And that mission is to experience the savior and share him w/ all he brings into my path. And my sweet wife; is number one on that list....So if I can stay out my carnal mind, and abide in a spiritual one...I can love her, I can live thankfully and not be a victim, because my wife has ADD... I need Grace, and I need to give Grace....
C
...non apologies. Yes, I'm
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
...non apologies. Yes, I'm learning to live without hearing apologies, and to see them instead in actions and his facial expressions. That's enough for me, I think, or at least for ordinary life matters.
I do keep in mind some things I know about how badly he was treated by others in the past, plus what it takes emotionally to deal with that string of frequent small foul ups due to forgetting, dropping, losing things. My mind is certainly not a steel trap, and I can be a klutz, too but I'd say that my partner is actively or passively involved in a good 5x what usually are seen as slipups in daily life than I do on my own. .If I was going through that, I'd be powerfully inclined to either be on my CASE telling myself in frustration "you screwed up again" or would be doing what I'm guessing that my husband is doing that leads to no uttered apologies for huffing, going emotional or whatever at me, or dumping an unfixed mess, which is to blunt or numb out his emotion....to protect myself from feeling bad at what I did...again, again, again, with other people sometimes getting upset, at other times not but me fearing that they might be pissed Yeh, I'd numb out.
But it leads to something imbalanced between us, when I'm the only one to apologize or ask forgiveness. Several years ago, we had a really bad situation, several active parties involved. I was the only one who acknowledged my part and apologized, did it pronto and then... Well, that's another story. But no one lse stepped up to the plate. I dont think the non recognition of actions and non apologies from my husband and the others were a play-to-win power play or gaslighting. or I hope not. But the lack of talking straight and taking personal responsibility for actions by the other people and my husband left something undone, that made the healing take a lot longer. My mulling things over, seeing things as best I could from their human POV and letting it go only took care of my end, not theirs
Just musing, C, about non apologies. I came to understand the power of immediate apology if I saw that I truly had messed up only later in my life. A good apology is a kind of truth telling.
Coping With Denial, Computers and Typing Zapp, C and NowOrNever
Submitted by kellyj on
Taking from the things you just said.....some changes have occurred just recently with my wife and I that have given me some valuable insight to this. I also wanted to add one thing that I forgot to mention to Zapp about the denial. For me...it really was therapy and finding a good councilor that made the difference for me. There was just so much I didn't know (or was not taught either by my parents...or from a healthy family dynamic as an example growing up ) that I really needed someone who I could trust and rely on for good solid advise and information in fact....most of what I have contributed here on this forum has been either directly or indirectly learned from therapy itself. I've been able to assimilate that information and synthesize it into my own working knowledge with a lot of effort and then going back and relating my experiences to my T with his help in keeping me on track and on the right path. This did take some time but eventually....things started "clicking" and making a lot of sense after a while. Before I knew it....I was doing it by myself automatically which is the goal anyway. You can only stay angry at your parents for what they didn't know or teach you for so long before you need to move past that and then do something about it. Namely....learn what you didn't learn before from them. Times do change and with it....learning new things that come to light as they do. We live in a time of FREE information and it's a real opportunity if you take advantage of it. That isn't something our parents had available to them anyway (unless you are 20 years old or older?)
And yes...learning the computer and typing ha! I was behind the curve myself until I had to use the computer for work (learning CAD/CAM computer aided drafting and milling CNC ). Having a purpose other than surfing the net really forces you to learn in a hurry but it took many hours at it in a dedicated effort to catch up to most 6th graders! lol I owe my typing speed and ability all to a girl I liked in 8th grade who took typing so I took it too just to be in the same class with her! lol Where ever she is now....I owe it all to her! lol ( college papers didn't hurt either...practice, practice, practice! ) Once you learn on a mechanical contraption like that....typing on a computer seemed like a piece of cake but I still don't know what all those other buttons do even now! (when all else fails..."ctr+alt+delete"..."esc"...and "edit undo" are still my best friends! Too bad there aren't buttons like those available when you get into these conflicted moments with your spouse! lol Which brings me to the next thing I wanted to add to this discussion....
In the course that my wife and I took with Melissa Orlov (The ADHD Effect course)...she gave us some really practical and very effective tools to use to get past these moments. The use of a "cue word" agreed upon ahead of time to stop the bickering and circular debates really helped to nip these moments in the bud. It worked so well in fact.... that we have needed to use it less and less in only a couple of months of using this technique.
It seemed....once we stopped going back and forth any more did wonders to bring the tension down and making it safer to engage knowing you have a panic button to press when needed. Having that ability for my wife it seems....allowed her to be more open and be more vulnerable as long as she had some kind of escape route available to her. A big one for her when ever the conversation moved in her direction.
The second part to this...came from that experience as well as from what I learned in Melissa's course.
What I realized that I didn't know before...was what my wife actually does. Her default (part of the denial ) is stonewalling. I didn't really know exactly what "stonewalling" was until I learned this from the exercises she gave us to do. We didn't even get a chance to do the exercises together once I realized that this is what she was doing. Just being able to interpret or recognize this was very much like the "cue word" in itself for me when engaging with my wife without her actually having to say anything. That's the point and the beauty of it....just being able to recognize it which tells me not to go there right at the moment and come back later using a different approach with her instead.
Under the category of "stone walling"....comes ALL of the other defense mechanisms! lol Including.....baiting me into an argument and gas lighting, circular reasoning, projection (throwing everything back into your face ie: "You know...this thing you do is really a problem for me." (reply) "Well you do that too" ......(.round and round, up and down, see saw, see saw ( Monty Python's Argument Clinic lol ) I use to call this trying to have a conversation with a moving target and I wasn't that far off the mark! lol
I love what NowOrNever said here."...I can go into Madame Self Defender or Madame Clarifier." This is so much me especially the Clarifier! These long winded posts of mine?..(ah hem) I'm a master at clarifying.....as my T and I have nicknamed it "Splain'in"......(Looozy, you got some splain'in to do!) lol He has told me repeatedly..."stop splain'in....listen instead." It took me a while to realize what he meant by that. This goes right along with him repeatedly telling me "don't make what you do contingent on anything D does" In other words....don't engage, take the bait, fight back, retaliate, argue, defend or "splain"....just observe what is being said and look for the intention or the reason why instead?
He also threw in there at times in a more cryptic message to me in our counseling sessions together when I asked him directly in front of my wife out of frustration saying I didn't get it? He said "I think you do." It took me a while to realize what he meant but I finally did......"DENIAL.....that's what I get and can relate with having my own experience with this. That's what he meant by "I think you do." That does put the burden somewhat on me in these moments with my wife....but if I remind myself and remember what that was like for myself....it makes it that much easier when I recognize the stonewalling...to remind myself of the emotional pain, insecurity and self doubt you feel and how horrible that feeling is to have and carry around with you. It's an awful feeling and all you want to do is to get rid of it.
My wife's time to let this go of this is not last thing at night before bed time....her MO is first thing in the morning when we first wake up. The code phrases she uses are things like " Can we talk?"....."I've got a lot on my plate"...."I having a problem".....listing verbally the "laundry list" of things I do that trouble her (repeatedly and chronically)....or asking the same question again over and over despite the fact that I already answered her and answer her repeatedly exactly the same each time she asks.
This one was a real source of contention early in our relationship since I picked up on it right away. Like...."are you just not listening or do you have a memory problem? " That's what I thought and felt after a while and she was doing it intentionally just to antagonize me since I could not believe she didn't hear my "splain'in" after saying it 100 times exactly the same way each time? She did try and use my long winded-ness or inability to be succinct at different times (more projection as a defense) and I intitially considered this and worked on that at first....but after 100+ different attempts at saying the exact same thing in reply or answer to her questioning....even I got it narrowed down and concise well enough to know that this was not the problem! lol
The real problem? My wife needs things to be a certain way or she starts to fall apart emotionally. Much of it has to do with her environment and external objects and that is where her focus and attention goes. For her....it really verges on OCD in that....she can't be all right or just Okay unless certain things are in place and if they are out of place...she cannot manage at all to her own detriment. I think that's where the dividing line starts moving more towards dysfunction and not just being annoyed or irritated. It's a standard of perfection that even she cannot maintain her self and she spends a lot of time worrying and trying to "prevent AND control" to make these things happen just to be Okay. (a disproportionate amount of time for sure!) And she cannot let it go! Picturing a favorite episode of "Monk" when he was on the witness stand in court and the picture on the wall at the back of the court room was a little crooked and he had to stop in the middle of his testimony to go straighten it. lol That's the level we're talking about and of course....my messy habits make me the source for endless worrying and concern and feeling more out of control for her!
Giving myself some credit here where credit is due and what I learned from all of this.
After two years straight of working on this and trying to break old habits and form new ones in these areas...it's finally paying off. I'm actually picking up, cleaning and organizing automatically without thinking about....to the point....I'm even messing myself up now! lol
Lately...I've gone looking for something and I can't find it...just to find it where it should be and that's usually the last place I look! lol I didn't remember even putting it away but I did and I did it without thinking about it or even remembering I did it? I'll take that as a huge success right there and my wife (as she does anyway) points that out to me more and more all the time. I've found that after so much struggle and staying after it....once it "clicks" I'm golden.... and then I don't have to keep working so hard to remember which is what is happening right now in a snow ball effect going in a positive direction. I can't tell you how much effort it took to just get to this place!!
But now....along with it...my wife has calmed way, way down herself and everything is soooo much easier and less contentious and dramatically reduced conflicts across the board. All from just learning and making some new habits and addressing my messiness and clutter issues? How come?
Going back to my T and what he said..... "I think you know"...."listen don't talk"....."don't make anything you do contingent on her"...."don't defend....and listen instead". All of this is much clearer for me and he was right of course and for all good reason.
"I think you know" Yes I do. Denial sucks for the person who is there...it's no walk in the park I can tell you. Something is wrong and you have no control of it. It makes you feel exposed, vulnerable and out or control and very insecure because of this and the net results is to rely heavily on defense mechanisms to manage it. In my wife's case...her go to is stone walling and trying to control her external environment including the people in it. Mine manifested differently....se la vie.
"Listen don't talk"...not to the content of each conversation...but what each conversation is attempting to say. That's just it. It's an attempt to say something or communicate what they are not able to say forth right and up front. But if you stand back and look at ALL the conversations in there entirety and not get hung up on the minutia, the offenses, the disrespects etc....they all will have a common theme. Like I said....once I explained myself 100 times or more "CLEARLY" in every way imaginable....you've got to figure...something else is really going on here? What is it that she is trying to say here but is not able to?"
"don't make anything you do contingent on her"...My wife is serving a different master and that master is the things that she cannot control or talk about. Her compulsions and obsessions are causing her a great deal of discomfort and anxiety and this is what this is all about whether she could say it or not. Me pointing this out to her was only met with anger since she was so not aware of this or why she was so irritated all the time. It's been pointed out by others in her past but that did nothing to change it or make it go away. All that did was bring this more to light and make this issue more apparent to her not less which only made her more defensive, more irritable and more unwilling to talk about it.
"don't defend....and listen instead". Defending against her defense mechanisms is like sending a message that you are not going to help her or do anything about her anxiety and the reasons or things that cause her to react. None of what I was saying was being heard anyway and it only made me angry and feel dismissed. Why? Because that's what she does every time.....it's compulsive not intentional. No need to put my head in the noose voluntarily....she will do that anyway if given the chance all by her self. Just being there and hearing the same thing repeated over and over is what gives her a sense of control and helps ease her tension. I can look at this like a burden...or I can choose to see it as a gift and putting myself and what I need at the moment a side and just see it for what it is and not make a big deal about it and just let that go. Predicting this and counting on this is a better way to approach it. At least you can do things to counter act it ahead of time and stay out of harms way if you can do this well. One of those things was learning to have a "learning conversation" which was a really valuable tool provided in Melissa's course we took.
At the outset of a learning conversation....you state your intention up front so there can be no confusion or misinterpretation especially from a victims stance where everything is filtered through the lens of being " personal to them" or "feeling attacked or criticized" and then taking offense easily because of it. Even when there is no reason for it or nothing coming from your side to indicate this at all? Stating your intention up front as to why you are saying what you are saying helps eliminates the potential for this and keeps the conversation on track.
Bottom line here after all is said and done. What I had to do to finally break through to my wife and gain some credibility was the hardest thing that I could do. My messy habits are my weakest and therefore...most difficult things to address but they were exactly what my wife was not able to tolerate. The burden feel on me to do anything about it despite the anxiety and amount of struggle I had to put into it just to get to this point. My wife's denial of her OCD like, controlling and obsessive behaviors are just symptoms of something else just like my ADHD yet she has not come to understand them like I have with mine and is still in denial of her dysfunction which is causing her so much internal turmoil and feelings out being out of control and insecure.
I can't fix that in her or do anything about that really, that's her dysfunction not mine....but I can address the things that make this worse for her which, at the top of the list was my messy habits. The dramatic shift that has taken place came with my own success in improving in these areas which just made everything else that much easier. It is the thing she's been saying in different ways but just not been able to really communicate what I cannot understand unless she did since I do not share her anxiety over these things.
In a perfect world....if she had come to me right from the beginning and said...." I have a personal problem that is plaguing me that I cannot seem to control. I'm kind of OCD and it makes me compulsive and I know that this is hard for other people to be around at times. I'm open to talking about this if there is anything you don't understand about it and will answer any questions you have about it. Keeping the house tidier will really help me if you can muster the energy to help me with my problem. It will really help me out a lot if you could do this for me?"
Instead of the denial and all that goes with it......that would be in a perfect world I guess?
Yep....we human beans come in all shapes and sizes...put em' all together and you've got one hell of a Chili recipe! lol
J
On target
Submitted by Zapp10 on
You have so amazingly encapsulated the experience of both sides of the ADD experience. This is why I have looked to this site for so many years. It also brings to light, for me, the same questions that only I can determine the best answer to and too often I find myself thinking "I don't love my H ENOUGH or RIGHT or TRULY.....on and on". Does knowing how to do this(understanding ADD on both sides) but choosing I can't... make me an awful person?....because it DOES to me. The very nature of ADD prevents them from seeing and understanding what they do? Am I right on this or am I missing something. My H has said to me "marriage should not be such hard work" I understand that he is coming from a lifetime of response to undiagnosed ADD and sees himself as "fine". How then can this move forward? It takes 2. During past discussions I have said "do you remember times when I said to you I need you to pay attention, I need your help, NO ONE does/says/ that to someone they love. Isn't it interesting that the diagnosis EXPLAINS why you didn't see/hear me?" and the response is like yo said...a blank expression.....then the verbal defense......which leads to putting me in my place.
Again,I have wondered to myself TOO many times....I don't love my husband enough. I don't want to die in this slowly, painfully year after year. Could it be that with or without the ADD we were not meant to be? He said to me last night."..we have been through so much together."....and my mind went immediately to yes we have. He WAS there to the best HE was able.I told myself this is how he loves? Is that what I settle for? I don't think "being together ALL those years" is any reason to willingly knowingly stay for what you see the future being based on what you are living right now because THEY ARE FINE WITH IT. I feel I have brought nothing to the marriage that was of any benefit to him.....the least being simply "who I am". What is that scripture.....can two walk together unless they agree? Isn't that about compromise and common ground? WTH?
Ok that's enough from me. I am rambling and I know this isn't all about me. I will leave this with Barneys song....I love you, you love me, we're a happy family....LOL
I'm feel you Zapp!
Submitted by c ur self on
Zapp it's OK, for us to say....*I have needs* It's OK to say I feel like I'm the only one doing the work in this relationship....I can't answer your question about your love...But based on your comments, and your 44 years...I would say you Love him more than he or you will ever know.
What gets left undone in our minds concerning the fellowship and partnership aspects of our relationships is just what happens when you take his heart and mind and pair it with your heart and mind...The inability to communicate like we can with others is so frustrating if we don't learn to accept it for the reality it is.
Don't think for one minute many of us don't feel you!...And have the same mental and emotional struggles...But, it's not about Love it's about human need....
Be at peace Zapp:)
C
Great example
Submitted by Delphine on
"Last night she would not accept my feelings about something she was wanting and pressing me hard (a victim in denial is stone blind to their behavior at this point) to do for her. So I told her to just forget it since we couldn't agree. (THE EMOTIONALLY STABLE PARTNER MUST NOT ENGAGE PAST THIS POINT, UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES, NONE, NOTA!!!) (caps are my own reminder LOL). She jumped out of bed, stormed out of the bed room cursing....Now, for me to pursue her thinking there is no reason two people in love should go to bed with those as the last words of the night is the worse kind of denial (I'm suppose to be a leader, and I should be wise enough to no better by now, should!)....The only way I could help her (and myself) in that moment was to do what I did....Take a breathe, pray, roll over and go to sleep. The fruit of pursuing her in the past 8 years (my denial) cost us no sleep, and days without speaking....(Trying to speak into a closed mind) What happened this time?....Same as what happens when I'm able to be at peace with her being her....She just called from work, with how was your day? And all the pleasantries, she never mentioned it.... Now do I like this? What do you think? LOL....But as long as I live in and face the reality of our difference's and recognize and accept that blank defensive stare and posture that say's nothing you could say matters!....I;m a rock, I'm an island.....And walk away then it's the best I can do for both of us..."
I read your post yesterday C and woke up thinking about it, determined to comment...this is such a great example of the power of acceptance and letting go. I will remember this in any future similar dealings I may encounter, including with my son. Thank you for sharing!
Delphine