All progress for us has stopped. I am trying so hard to accept that, as the spouse of an ADDer, I do not matter. All is about him, his meds, his needs, how I speak to him so as not to damage his self-esteem, etc. No one takes care of me. No one cares if I have to climb in and out of my car from the passenger's side because we can't afford to fix my car, and never will.
He went back to work when he got treatment and I'm grateful for that. But he can't understand that, since it hurts me to walk, I don't want to do all the housework, I don't really want to take care of all the family needs.
How does treatment address doing household tasks or being willing to share the tv? How can a pill make him remember that he's turned the burner on to melt stuck-on grease and he needs to turn it off before it burns? How can medication help him remember where he left MY GPS?
Our marriage counselors didn't think this kind of issue was worth addressing, so they "fired" us. How can we make progress in these areas? Or is that just too much to expect? Should I just keep doing everything and expecting nothing?
His Perspective
Submitted by amanwithit on
I can't speak from his persepective but what I can tell from someone who recently learned they have ADHD and that is has destroyed my wife is if he doesn't want to get help and make things better then it is going to be difficult if not impossible.
What is he doing to correct his behaviour? If he is going to conseling and taking his meds are you being paitent and working to make this life better for both of you? It does not sound to me that there is any therapy on "how to live together with the ADHD". I know making a list for me to follow has really helped. The list needs to be short and updated on a daily basis. What I can say is I do want to make myself better and my life with my spouse better. If he can't say this I don't know if you can be the only one trying.
You may not want to hear this but most likely you have behaviours that need to be addressed as well. You have probably built up many years of frustration, hurt, and blame. You deserve to feel the way you do but if you have not filed for divorce then there is a part of you that wants to try and make it work.
In my opinion the two of you need to be in counseling, find another counseler who is willing to work on it with the two of you.
ADD or ADHD is only part of what is going on in the relationship. If he loves you and wants to be your partner he will do what is needed to make you happy despite the disease. It may not be easy for him and it may not be as quick as you want but it can happen. Only if the two of you work together on it.
What about church? Is there any support there? Getting connected or re-connected with faith can help as well. It helps remind the ADD or ADHD spouse that there is a higher power that demands a certain level of respect towards those they love, specifically in the marriage.
He was diagnosed about 3 years ago
Submitted by Sueann on
And was eager to take medicine and go to counseling. He still takes medicine (at ruinous cost) but decided he didn't need any more counseling, nor could we afford it. We had a big bump of progress when he started taking meds, but nothing has happened since. He was seeing someone at the psychology clinic at our local university. The counselor had the same degree as he does, he felt she didn't know more than he did.
It's the little things that tick me off. He emptied the bathroom trashcan without realizing he was throwing away his electric razor. I was on the way to buy him a razor this morning, so he could go to work, and ran out of gas. Does counseling give you the money to fill your gas tank, or make you remember to check the trash can when you empty it (or not leave your razor on the back of the toilet)? How do we get this kind of problem under control, so that out lives are not a continuous cycle of putting out fires? How do I get him to understand how to live in the real world? Help!!
Daily Grind
Submitted by amanwithit on
I can't really answer how to stop all of the problems, the money issues are not going to be solved because he is taking his meds or getting counseling. This is something the two of you are going to have to sit down and figure out how to budget or live within your means. If you are capable of managing the finances is there a way he can turn this over to you? Can the two of you together make changes in your life to reduce the cost of living? It can be the simple things like reducing the cable or internet subscription, changing where you live to save a little money. Making an agreement to not spend over a specific amount of money without talking to the other one? Making small changes accross the board will add up.
You also need to learn to not sweat the small things, don't get to upset or angry when small things happen like the razor. Could you just not get him some cheap disposable razors instead of a new electric one?
What about church? You would be amazed on how it would help to get into a church where there could be additional support. It also might help him to better understand his resonsibilites as the leader of the home.
When it comes right down to it though he must want to make things better, as well you will need to accept he is an individual and can't be perfect. Just remember this comes from the perspective of someone trying to get through each day with this disease. He must be committed and even if he is it doesn't mean he won't stumble at times.
Money issues
Submitted by Sueann on
The money issues are caused by the ADD. An entry level job at 48, the massive cost of the medicine (after his insurance has paid). I've been talking about moviing for years, but he won't do the work of looking, and I can't afford to drive 30 miles to the city where he works, where we'd like to live, to look for a place when he refuses to participate. I feel like a rat in a maze, stopped at every turn. I am a student and am required to have internet for school. We can't afford cell phones, so I feel I need to have a home phone. There is nothing else we can reduce.
I was trying to buy him some cheap disposable razors at the grocery store when I ran out of gas. We bought the electric razor at a yard sale.
He is a happy member of a church, sings in their choir (a night every week he's not home, yeah for him!) and has been a member of their council. I am not a believer, nor a hypocrite, so I don't go.
I'm just lookng for some simple things to help him remember to take his meds, check the trashcan when he empties it, turn off the burners when he's done, etc. Things most people know.
Not Most People
Submitted by amanwithit on
He is not most people, in reality none of us are "most people". We all have differences that need to be met. Including yourself.
Somehow the two of you need to get to a place where you can discuss things without the hurt and anger and come up with a plan IN WRITING that you both sign and agree to. Then maybe the two of you can agree on some "processes" that makes things better. In my professional life I have been able to manage those around me to help me with my problems. I ask for list and things in writing so I don't forget and am able to meet my job requirments. In my mind this needs to be happening in the home as well.
Maybe you should consider attending church, not for believing but for the support of others? Is there a group or a couple there that can mentor the two of you through this, someone he can bee completley open and honest with?
I know you feel this is all on you but trust me, if he loves you he is trying. It may just not be the way you want. Get more help from outsiders so you don't feel alone!
sounds like he never learned the skills
Submitted by arwen on
Sueann, I've been reading your posts and thinking and thinking -- mostly going in circles, I confess, trying to figure out if there's anything more I can suggest that might help. But as I read this post, it reminded me of some experiences I had with my husband.
Before he was diagnosed, when his ADD symptoms had re-emeerged in his early 40's, he began to have terrible memory problems, impulsiveness really wreaked havoc, he interrupted people frequently, didn't listen well, was completely disorganized, never put anything away, never did anything to take care of our home or belongings unless it was broken or I yelled.
After he got diagnosed and treated, his impulsiveness decreased, and he didn't interrupt people hardly ever, and he listened better. With his meds, my husband has a halfway decent memory (in summer, anyway), good enough to enable him to use his PDA appropriately and perform the kinds of tasks you wish your husband would do. But, he still had trouble in the other areas I mentioned. I couldn't understand why some behaviors improved and others didn't. He'd tell me these were things he was incapable of learning, but that just didn't make any sense to me. I finally figured it out -- when he was growing up, he lived in a very disorganized household and so he never learned any organizing skills. Along with that, he also never learned the concepts of maintenance, or of "put away", and never learned how to find anything. I hadn't noticed it in the early years of our marriage because we had so few possessions that organization wasn't really an issue, and we didn't own anything that needed maintenance for a long time. After he was diagnosed, he thought he was incapable of learning them, but what it really was that he didn't have a clue how to go about it. The behaviors that got better were the ones that had been corrected when he was growing up, but then lost when his ADD re-emerged.
Some of the repercussions of this I addressed with "bandaids" -- e.g. the labels on all the kitchen cabinets, so my husband knows where stuff is supposed to go. But mostly, he had to learn new skills from scratch. It took a lot of prodding from me, and not accepting "I can't" without exhausting the possibilities. Sometimes I could suggest things he could try. Other times he had to find his own way. And it took a lot of practice, practice, practice, one skill at a time. He still sucks at organizing, and he temporarily loses his "put away" skills every late winter/early spring season (his bad SAD period, which makes his ADD worse), but he definitely has been able to acquire some of these skills he lacked.
It sounds to me like maybe your husband never learned these life skills, and now needs to learn them, from scratch. In my experience, this is not something a psychiatrist can really help with -- we have had more success using a behavioral psychologist. For us, some of the practice had to be artificially structured -- not unlike practicing a musical instrument (e.g. piano scales). Other times, I would remind him per our discussed arrangements, e.g. "You're not using your "put away" skills, dear" -- not saying *what* he hadn't put away, which forced him to turn his mind to that question as part of dealing with it.
If you think this might be the case, your role should only be identifying the missing skill and the need for it to be learned, negotiating with your husband how he will pursue learning it, and providing occasional feedback (including "I haven't noticed you practicing XYZ", if that's the case). It's not your job to teach him the missing skills.
Hope this can help in some way.
"It matters not what someone is born, but what they grow to be." Albus Dumbledore
Arwen, you may be on to something
Submitted by Sueann on
I don't think he ever did learn these skills. His mother is strong and competent. She supported her 3 kids and her ADD (we think) husband who had no career success. But I think she has it too because of her complete lack of follow-through on a lot of things in their house. Their house must have been a wreck, it is now.
By the time my husband was through college (he lived at home and didn't even work, but it still took him 6 years) she was retired. He lived at home until he married me, at 43. She told me that she assigned him the task of cooking their evening meal because he liked cooking (still does) and it was the only thing she could get him to do. I do think he never did learn to put things away when he was young.
As near as I can tell, the meds deal with the depression and lack of energy and do nothing for the memory problems. Psychologists are not covered by our insurance and we can't afford to pay privately. In fact, the money problems associated with ADD are probably the most troubling to me: lack of career success, the huge drain of the meds and counseling on our budget, my needs not being met. It is so hard to face living the rest of ny life without mattering, knowing my medical needs won't be addressed until I'm old enough for Medicare, knowing we can't afford to make my car safe to drive, etc.
But how does someone learn to turn off burners? That is the scariest thing of all.
learning requires remembering
Submitted by arwen on
If the meds are helping with the energy and depression, I would bet that they are also improving the neurotransmitter function for memory, too -- that the true problem is that your husband has no memory *skills*. And you cannot learn if you cannot remember.
So maybe the first step is for him to acquire some memory skills. I have heard there are websites that can help with this (although I don't know of any to recommend myself). Possibly there are also memory training books at the public library. The goal of a good memory training program is not to see how many trivial bits and pieces of information can be remembered -- it is to train the brain to organize the information it receives in a useful and retrievable way. This means that the brain, among other things, needs to be trained to recognize patterns and classify information. This requires practice, practice, practice. How did we learn this as kids? "One of these things is not like the others, one of these things doesn't belong -- can you figure out what's not like the others before we finish our song?", to borrow from Sesame Street. It may sound ridiculous, but that may be where he needs to start.
Cultivating specific habits can also help with memory issues, because once a habit is established, you don't have to think about it any more, which frees your brain up for the active remembering that is required for non-routine tasks. This also requires a lot of practice. The modern attitude in schools that drilling is passé overlooks the greater need for repetition in some brains (my ADHD son and husband *still* have trouble with simple kitchen arithmetic due to this folly -- I've seen my husband pick up a calculator to add 3 and 5, before he was diagnosed and treated).
My sense about learning to turn off a burner is that is requires a combination of both memory skills and good habit learning. A memory connection needs to be formed between turning off the burner and removing the pot or pan from the stove -- I believe this is called a linkage memory technique. The learner has to be taught that the two tasks are inseparable, and then the habit has to be formed by practice (which might require artificially going through the motions even when you're not actually cooking something -- e.g. with a pot of just water -- over and over, until the action is ingrained and natural -- not unlike writing on the blackboard a hundred times). This is boring, and that makes it even more difficult for the ADHDer than the norm, but let's face it, when it comes to safety issues, boredome is even less than a secondary concern. In our house, safety is sine qua non, and I have made a major issue of it so that at this point my husband wouldn't even think of complaining about establishing a safety habit.
One of the benefits of helping my husband learn to do these things has been that my needs *are* being better met now than they were in the past. Not all, certainly, but enough so that I can function and remain sane. No question, though, it's a tough slog. Learning these skills as an adult is much harder than learning them as a kid. But I really believe that if my husband could learn them in his 40's and 50's, so can many ADHDers. For us, the key was that my spouse was committed to improving our relationship (which five years ago had nowhere to go but up). I'm not sure that needs to be the key for every ADHDer, but I think they probably have to be committed to some goal in order to stick with the learning process through the frustration, boredom, and mental exhaustion that at times accompanies it.
Hang in there!
"It matters not what someone is born, but what they grow to be." Albus Dumbledore
Beginning to get my needs met...
Submitted by Sueann on
I don't think my husband would ever do that kind of practice. His main "defense" against his ADD is that he doesn't have a problem or telling me that "you do it too," citing an isolated incident 3 years ago or something, so I doubt he'd "practice" turning off burners.
His new psychiatrist finally did agree that he has ADD. But he thinks his anti-depressants are making the ADD worse and wants to wean him off them. Yesterday, with a lower dose of anti-depressants, he had depression hit him hard in the middle of his work day. His boss thought it might be because he was expecting that to happen. I don't know how all that is going to work out.
My biggest frustration with his ADD is how much it costs. We pay almost $400 a month for our medical insurance and it still costs $130 for his meds every month, plus he's seeing a new psychiatrist who wants to see him every week, at $50 co-pay. That amount of money means we can't meet my medical needs. I am left to feel like I have no value.
I was eventually able to find a doctor who would prescribe hypertension needs for me that are on Wal-Mart's $10 for 3 months' supply formulary. So after 3 years without my meds (after a stroke!) I finally got back on my meds. During all the time I didn't get mine, he got his.
The body guy who had taken $130 to fix my car door and it fell off again the next day finally figured out a way to fix it with longer bolts. He did that for free. I guess I guilted him into it. I still feel that my husband should have been able to afford to replace my door if necessary rather than leave me to drive a car wtih a door that could fall off at any time.
I am glad you were able to get your husband to "practice" these missing skills. My husband thinks as long as he takes his meds, he's perfect. He's not interested in any kind of coaching or reading or counseling. I simply don't know what to do to get what I need from him.
My husband doesn't always like to practice either
Submitted by arwen on
Does anybody? (lol)
I guess I would tend to approach such an impasse with "mom" skills. The three approaches that come to mind are bribery, learning alongside and parallel learning (not necessarily in that order -- to me, bribery is always a last resort).
By learning alongside, I mean that I would do that specific practice side by side with him -- up to a point. This approach plays along with his claim that "you do it too" -- and it allows both of you to critique the other (i.e. nobody has an instrinsic power position of sole judge) -- thereby pretty much taking away the basis for his refusal. The "up to a point" part would ensure that you wouldn't have to do it with him longer than necessary. The key would be to agree that each would practice alongside, since he thinks you need the practice too, *until such time as the practicer demonstrated proficiency* and therefore didn't need the practice anymore. The proficiency demonstration would not be based solely on the practicing sessions, but also on real-life execution over some reasonable period of time, and this basis would need to be negotiated *up front* so that it would be an equitable standard that did not depend on the other partner's opinion to "pass". My expectation would be that the amount of time needed to demonstrate my proficiency would be pretty small, so I wouldn't have to invest all that much time in this undertaking.
By parallel learning, I mean a sort of "tit for tat" arrangements. I certainly have my own deficiencies that could use practice to improve -- so I would negotiate practicing on one of *my* problem areas in exchange for him practicing on one of *his* problem areas. There would be up-front negotiations about the criteria for proficiency in this case as outlined in the "alongside learning" case. This is my preferred method, and I've used this quite successfullly with my ADHD son as well as my husband. I think of this as the closest to a "win-win" approach, since it addresses two real problem behaviors.
I realize all this is a pain in the neck, and it's natural to feel resentful towards these ideas. On the other hand, I've concluded that sometimes it's worth the trouble in order to stop the dangerous behavior.
As far as your costs are concerned -- the ADHD community is so under-served by the current healthcare system, and it's a crying shame on so many levels. This is an issue I would like to do something to bring more attention to and fix, if possible -- maybe some kind of activism -- I don't know. My husband and I have actually brainstormed about the feasibility of setting up some kind of non-profit loan/grant program for meds and counseling for people like you when we retire in the not-too-distant future (right now we don't have the time that we'd have to invest to set it up and solicit funding, with both of us working). Unfortunately, none of this does you any good right now. I sure wish I could help you!!!
"It matters not what someone is born, but what they grow to be." Albus Dumbledore
My husband won't do things I don't think he does right
Submitted by Sueann on
My husband usually cooks dinner because he likes to cook. I do the baking, that requires more careful measuring and you can't "make it up as you go along." He won't wash potatoes, for some weird reason, so all his potato dishes taste like dirt. When I would say he should wash the potato after peeling, he said, OK, you are the queen of potatoes and refuses to have any more to do with potatoes (except of course for eating them!).
He also can't get the timing right on the saute-and-season rice dishes like Rice-a-Roni, so he won't do those. I think his attitude is if something isn't easy, don't do it.
I like the idea of parallel learning. I'll have to try that.
Memory and Organization (ADDer's Experience)
Submitted by YYZ on
I can only speak from my own experience, of course. Diagnosed at 44 with ADHD my life before this knowledge was fairly successful, largely due to my wife, because my track record before her was spotty, inconsistent and full of extreme highs and lows. What helped me was the fact that I have always been a tech nerd. I realized I was not organized pretty early in life, so daily routines were really important and never changed because disaster would soon likely follow. I discovered a wonderful program in 1997, when my company added an Exchange Server for MS Outlook. Calendar, Contacts, Tasks, To-Do lists, email too. I started adding ALL things that I could never remember (A large list) Birthdays, Anniversary’s, Vacation Dates all with reminder alarms to go off while I still had time to deal with the event. Contacts with wife and kid notes, address info, all phone numbers. Recurring Tasks are an incredible help. Change the Air filters, give the dogs medicine, anything that always needs to be done, with alarm reminders of course. You get the picture :-) Forced Electronic organization probably prevented my ADD from being detected earlier in life. In 2000 I discovered cell phone that would sync with Outlook data, and now I had the tools around me at all times!!! Before medication, I would always forget the stuff that just comes up, like "Pick up the dry cleaning" or "Take 'whatever' to work because someone asked to borrow it"... After medication even these unusual requests get remembered alot more frequently, don't get me wrong I can still forget, but I am better a year later for sure. I too was on anti-depressants, but weened off of them a month later. The ADD is still there, I can still forget to turn off the burner, as well as other traits, but I am more efficient at work and home. I get over-whelmed by all the things I know that need to be done, which I used to not notice until they were blowing up or I was being yelled at about them. My time management is improved, I multiply what I think the project will take in time X3 which usually works. I stay on the meds because THEY HELP ME in a way I thought was impossible.
I hope this post can give you a liitle positive reinforcement. The ADDer needs time to adjust, as do the Non-ADD partners, because I can say the world looks alot different than it used to, requiring new training, and it is quite overwhelming at times.
This site has really helped pull me back up from my one year "Now what?" slump :-)
Love the idea of allowing 3X as long
Submitted by Sueann on
That works for non-ADDer too, especially if they have to deal with the unpredictable (kids, dogs, people with ADD). Love your upbeat post!
3X Theory
Submitted by YYZ on
I am going to reveal that my 3x Theory was borrowed from Star Trek's character Scotty. He told another character how he multiplies his repair estimates by three, so he looks like a hero when he is done X2 instead of X3 :-) Did I mention I am not only a tech nerd, but a Trekkie too... Thanks for your post.
I'm a Trekkie too
Submitted by Sueann on
I'm old enough to have seen the original series when it first aired, but I had forgotten that bit of wisdom. Thanks for the day brighteneer.
even more in common
Submitted by arwen on
Sueann, I think you've commented before on how much we seem to have in common -- it certainly seems that way to me -- and now here's another link, since I've also been a huge Star Trek fan all my life. (But this quote from Scotty is not from the original series but from his guest appearance in a Next Generation episode, when he's talking to Geordi LaForge about what a chief engineer needs to do.)
I've often wondered how ADHD is handled in the Star Trek universe -- undoubtedly they have found ways to address it, since nobody ever seems to suffer from it in the 24th and 25th centuries! ;)
"It matters not what someone is born, but what they grow to be." Albus Dumbledore
Wow, you are good!
Submitted by Sueann on
I remember that episode. Scotty is trapped in a pattern buffer for 80 years and meets Geordi and all the rest. When you mention it, I even remember the concept. Cool!
I think Captain Kirk had ADD-as faithful as a tomcat, getting by on charm, no tolerance for paperwork or rules, making decisions by the seat of his pants, and great in a crisis. It made him a great front-line captain but an awful admiral.
Wow... You are good...
Submitted by YYZ on
ADDer's fill in the missing memory gaps with what they think is right... I think I read something about this memory gap thing somewhere on this forum :-) I watched ALL of the original series re-runs, All of the movies, Next Gen, most of DS 9, some Voyager and I Liked Enterprise after the first season, but America voted them off pretty quick. At least I got Scotty right...
Hear is another quote that I follow religiously, "Anything worth doing is worth Over-Doing..." Tim "The Toolman" Taylor
I think this quote is part of my condition, too...
More Need To Hear This
Submitted by robinshusband on
I think more folks need to hear this. I've had my current job for 4 years now. I agree 100% that the "tech world" has probably helped save my butt. I also use my phone/Outlook to manage my appointments and my "to-do" list. As I look back at problems in my current position that have caused stress it all goes back to not using those tools or getting lazy with them. I wish I had figured out to include all of my personal life in the same tool.
I'm going to try and block off a day in the next week or so to really look at using more of those tools in my "entire life" instead of just my work life.
Thanks for sharing!
Yeah, I'd be lost without Outlook, etc.
Submitted by sapphyre on
I now even have Google Calendar and Outlook synching going on... so I at least get emails if not pop-ups to remind me of stuff.
Oh, I don't have ADHD (officially :P)