Well my husband and I have had what feels like the same conversation...accelerating to arguments frequently...that we've had numerous times over our married life. He HATES to discuss finances & hates to do some of the paperwork for our business.
Every year about this time I start getting really stressed out because I needed to have already received paperwork from him to get everything ready to do our taxes. I am CFO of our business (which is just he and I--with him doing most of the actual work), and I also volunteer full time, and we share house duty and cooking, so we are insanely busy and when anything gets behind it throws everything off. I usually end up working through the night several nights in a row to get things lined up that he should have already done and that he has promised to do. It is just part of doing business, and in this economy the idea of getting him a secretary or whatever is simply completely unfeasible.
I used to really push staying on top of it all the time. One big budget meeting before the month begins and several check ups through the month to help both of us stay on track. 3 things weighed into disorganized way we are doing it now (which is the way he wants to do it--though the result is not working. He wants to just know what the bills are and assume everything else is spendable--little to no monthly saving and even insurance bills, buying tires, anything that is a several hundred dollar expense is difficult to handle this way).
1. He was so resistant to actually discussing the budget that though we'd set up a time, he'd say he was prepared to do it, but it was like pulling teeth that I just couldn't keep dragging him along--and it was dragging usually even when he said he agreed with what we were doing and the goals it was helping is meet
2. We were making more money so a tight budget wasn't as necessary and
3. We made a major life change 2 years ago. We both wanted this and it is a goal of our marriage together, but he is ideally suited for this situation and I am not. It involved learning a foreign language (which he mostly already knew) and being absorbed in a foreign culture. I resist change whereas he is a very admirably go-with-the-flow/be-happy-where-you-are kinda guy. With all the extra stress and the time consumption this brought into my life, I really didn't have the emotional energy to do much more than ask for a meeting....which he'd always agree to, but the result was never a budget. I kept up with both our business and personal accounts and kept the books balanced but not much more the first year.
Last year at tax time it really hit the fan and I said NEVER NEVER AGAIN. Expecially as we never were paid for some work we did. We agreed that he would put all his invoices in one place organized by month and that at the end of each month, he'd provide me with a report of exactly which accounts paid us and for what services so that I could know exactly who's paid and what is owed.
Before anyone asks I have offered MYRIADS of times to take over the invoicing but he insists on doing it, and after some hiccups we have streamlined the process and set up checklists so that this actually goes smoothly now. It was adding this extra report that he could not/would not do. It is literally less than 1 hour of work. All the invoices are already printed out and should be filed. Just type up who was invoiced and when so that I can check that against what we received. I have asked in every way a person can ask for these reports. THEY HAVE TO BE DONE!! I have offered to just do them. He will not allow me to do them, and he will not do them. It is Feb 2010 and I have not gotten ONE from last year....he is very genuinely sorry and apologetic and always swears he will get them to me *today* this has been going on for like 7 months. I talk to him about it weekly. He promises to do it immediately then does not do it. I am ready to scream!
The end of December we had a serious conversation about how this year was NOT going to go this way. We scheduled 3 seperate budget meetings in January....not one happened. We have scheduling discussions and he's doing better in every way with a new doctor and coach, but the budgetting he is just resistant to in a way I cannot understand. I was gone for a week in the middle of January and other than work he had the entire week to goof off to his hearts content. I asked two things.....that the house be straightened up when I got home (it was clean when I left and acceptable when I got home) and that he have at least 1 quarter's reports to give me on returning home (still haven't seen them though he claims the first quarter is done).
While i was gone he told me he got the first quarter done and that he might just keep going and do them all. I have asked for the first quarter a minimum of 10 times including twice today. He always says he'll get them right away.....still never seen them.
I exploded tonight. He is sorry...he knows he should have given them to me...he just got distracted and forgot. Before he left tonight I asked for them so that I could start on the tax forms since I unexpectedly have the evening off......he walked into his office and then left for work never having brought them out which I didnt realize till he left. Which is when I called him furious.
Tonight I just was not going to take anything for an answer other than an explanation for why he keeps putting us through this. He finally offered that he doesn't really want to know the truth about our finances. He knows when we have a budget that his *blow* money is reduced and that he has to pay more attention to what he spends when he is out working--he and a coach are supposedly working on this too. He hates to know that he overspent a category even though we have discussed that a budget is a tool to get you what you want. If you spend on things on purpose rather than impulsively then you get what you want instead of finding out that you blew all the money for that item on fast food that you didn't need or whatever.
Verbally he agrees with all the reasons to have a budget, but I was devastated to hear that basically his personal feeling about having a budget (avoid it at all costs....it limits you...it makes things no fun) is unchanged since we made the first budget he'd ever experienced 8 years ago. All our discussions and all our goals and deep inside he still feels the same. This is the part of his ADD that I hate the absolute most. He has the ability to believe somethign against all evidence to the contrary. Verbally he'll concede but his real view never changes and therefore his actions in that area change very little.
I asked him if he's actually enjoyed how financially difficult it has been these last 2 years when I haven't been paying close attention to the money because I've been too overwhelmed with other things. He says no because I am always stressed about it when I have to balance everything.
I don't know how to get on the same page with him. He says all the right things. He's listened to Dave Ramsey...read one of his books...he *sees* all the value, but he just hates it. He said tonight (for the upteenth time) that he knows his way doesn't work, so regardless of how he feels about it, we'll go with budgetting. But I don't want to drag him along on this issue anymore.....and I want our financial life to be a full team effort. How have you handled this issue???
no middle ground
Submitted by arwen on
Aspen, I went through somewhat similar situations with my husband. My husband hates dealing with money, does not understand how to manage it, does not understand how to budget, etc etc etc. Yet he really was not happy with me managing it all -- he said he felt isolated from any knowledge or say, even though I was willing to discuss it and I always included him in big decisions, solicited his input and never acted arbitrarily.
We tried a variety of arrangements, all of which were not successful for one reason or another. Like you, it drove me crazy because he could never adhere to any set of rules about our finances, but the only way we could simplify the rules was to impose certain limitations which he couldn't ever stay within either. I finally threw in the towel and said I couldn't find any way to make it work, at which point he said he would take over managing our cash flow and I would only have to monitor our longterm investments.
When I accepted this arrangement, I knew it was a big risk. At that time, I did not have any separate accounts, except for retirement funds. Whatever bad thing he might do to his financial standing, he would do to mine. But I really had come to feel that it was the only way to resolve the situation. I was pretty sure that sooner or later his handling of our money would fall apart, and I was ready to seize that opportunity to hammer home the lessons of real-world money handling if it happened. In effect, my husband was playing "let's pretend" with our finances -- I had done everything I could think of to get through to him why that doesn't work, I'd told him till I was blue in the face that legal and financial institutions are not very flexible or forgiving, but he just wasn't going to believe it until he experienced it.
And I think that's the critical aspect of this situation. Many of the ADHDers I know ignore the realities of what they really dislike doing, because a lot of times that works pretty well for them. If they procrastinate long enough, maybe it won't be needed anymore, or maybe somebody else will take care of it, or whatever -- somehow, they don't always even know how and they don't really care -- somehow, the problem will go away. (It may get replaced by a different problem, like an irate spouse, but that's a problem they typically hate less and feel more comfortable dealing with.) And, with my husband and finances, before he took over the cash flow management, I was always standing between him and disaster, so of course he wasn't worried about disaster. These two factors made it actually very easy for my husband to deny financial and legal reality. I don't think he consciously was thinking that he didn't have to really worry about money because he could count on me to solve whatever problems arose out of self-preservation, but it seems quite likely to me that he believed that on a subconscious level. So I couldn't shake his long-held beliefs about problems going away if you ignore them, by talking and examples. The only way he was going to see things differently was to experience them differently.
Melissa has talked about avoiding enabling, and while I don't think that trying to avoid mutual financial disaster is equivalent to enabling, I do think there is a similarity. By protecting myself from financial disaster, I was also inherently protecting my husband. The only way he was going to stop playing "let's pretend" was if he suffered real consequences, and the only way that could happen was by me stopping protecting him and thus also myself.
When he did get us into big financial trouble, it was a real shock to him. He really believed his old "maybe it will go away" strategy would work and he was stunned to discover that it didn't, just as I'd said it wouldn't. The cost and consequences were significant and unpleasant. I think subconsciously he expected that I would somehow do something to fix it, and was shocked again to realize that there wasn't a thing I could do once he'd done the damage. It was a very big wake-up call.
I don't know if you can afford to do something like this -- tell him you can't do the taxes without his information, that if he can't cooperate with you, you are throwing in the towel on the taxes and resigning as CFO -- that if he makes it impossible for you by not providing it in a timely fashion, he will have to do them instead because you won't pull these all-nighters again -- and risk him not filing them properly or on time, and all the consequences that come with that. Draw a reasonable line, and don't go past it. Refuse to play the game on his terms, even if it hurts you to refuse. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander -- if he isn't going to fulfill his responsibilities about the taxes, you have no obligation to fulfill yours. I know, this is scary and really drastic. But it was the only way I could find to get my husband out of playing "let's pretend" with our money.
When money may as well be Monopoly Money to him
Submitted by Aspen on
Thanks Arwen so much for your response! I can't even imagine going through that....and my larger concern I can't imagine forgiving it if he took us down the rabbit hole after everything I've tried to do to keep us on track.
I have threatened my husband with dumping the finances onto him if he won't get me what I need, but I don't think there are any teeth in the threat because he knows I'd never trust him with my finances. He does know I am serious when I threaten to seperate our finances, but it is so against what marriage and partnership mean to both of us that we haven't been willing to go there though the temptation has been HUGE.
Since reading your post, I've honestly sat with the possibility that we could have to do the same to *really* get my husband to understand the way you did, and I don't think I am capable of letting him drive us into the ditch financially--which I am convinced is what he would do. Well meaningly...unintentionally...but also unerringly.
I should never post angry because once we can talk calmly the situation isn't as bad as it seems in the moment, and we were able to have 2 calm and long conversations about this problem the same night as my original post. But the fact remains that this is a MAJORLY FRUSTRATING, ONGOING issue for me and for us. We agree we need a solution, and so far truly getting him onto the same page emotionally really isn't occurring. He sees the way he *wants* it to be is impossible and ridiculous and a fairy tale (buy whatever you want whenever you want it, and don't worry about the cost ever). But due to his ADD or whatever other mental issues he has about money, I am half way convinced that will ALWAYS be what he is hoping for....which means he'll be disappointed and driving me crazy financially forever! For me the admittance that a hope of mine is totally unrealistic would be at least 1/2 way to conquering the issue, but for him it is more like 10% at most because emotionally he just wants what he wants. It sounds so childish and yet it is so real to him.
I have thought of some form of having him keep up with a *dummy* checkbook register (he has literally never balanced a checkbook in his life. He checked his balance and thought *that's about right*) First issue of our married life was a 2 month battle to get $400 returned to his account that was withdrawn illegally before we merged our accounts. Their main reason for not wanting to refund it? He allowed it to go for so long that it was a tacit agreement to the false charge. He was willing to just let them have that $400 which we REALLY NEEDED because money may as well be Monopoly money for all the real-world understanding he has of it.
He would say let them keep the $400 cause the money has no meaning to him. He would also spend that same $400 as if it was returned even though it wasn't. It is seriously like none of it is really *REAL* to him.
He gets upset because I focus on the budget and whether we can buy X in light of having Y and Z coming up. He just wants to spend for X and let Y and Z take care of themselves, but when I force him to look at the numbers and choose cause we can only pick 1 or 2 things then he understands.......and sticks to what we decided because he understands. But he hates that *truth*and so his response is to avoid that discussion whenever possible. If he doesn't *know* then all bets are off....like an ostrich burying it's head in the sand.
We'll get an extra $500 for a job we didn't expect, and by the time he is done talking about all the things we can buy with it, he has mentally spent like $1500 in $100 or $200 increments. When I mention this, he'll sheepishly agree, but also I can tell that in his mind that type of thinking is *no fun*. Where does anyone get the idea that life is or even should be fun all the time?!!?
It is seriously like Monopoly money...no emotional tie to the reality. I don't know how to bridge it especially since it is SOO entrenched. His mom and sister are the same way.....cept they honestly are worse.
To be fair he has come a large distance from where he started....it is just still so far from where I need him to be, and I feel like after our conversation that mentally he hasn't been keeping up with his verbal progress. He just is better at squashing down his tendencies. WHICH IS HORRIBLE TO ME. IT MAKES ME ACHE FOR HIM, but those tendencies are ridiculous and childish and unrealistic and genuinely need to be eradicated rather than only squashed.
This attitude towards money
Submitted by Sueann on
...was one of the first things that made me suspect my husband was ADD.
He was owed a little over $400 for an insurance claim that wasn't put through properly (dentist's fault, not ours). I couldn't take care of it since we weren't married yet. When we got married, he said "well, it's been too long" and seemed happy about that, like the $400 was not worth bothering to file the form. We were newlyweds who had just paid for our own wedding, we could not afford to let it go. I found out my husband didn't know how to properly fill in a check. I like the concept of Monopoly money, it really explains a lot.
financially protect yourself
Submitted by brendab on
"He does know I am serious when I threaten to seperate our finances, but it is so against what marriage and partnership mean to both of us that we haven't been willing to go there though the temptation has been HUGE."
When I read your email about how irresponsible your husband behaves about finances, I wondered why you think you have a partnership? To me partners make agreements and honor them. When one person misbehaves and the other person suffers the consequences, you have no partnership. Instead you have a parent/child relationship where the parent enables misbehavior. I hope I have not written this in an offensive way. I am just making some observations about your message and don't really know much about your life.
If I had a teenager who was doing exactly the same kind of thing, what would I do to teach them? I would set up situations to give them responsibility. then allow them to suffer consequences for irresponsibility. I would allow the consequences to teach, and I would not allow myself to suffer for their choices. I would not "fix" what they have done, and I would not rant at them for their poor choices. by the way I've raised 4 teenagers and applied these principles and it does work.
You actually have written a solution to own problem by writing " IT MAKES ME ACHE FOR HIM, but those tendencies are ridiculous and childish and unrealistic and genuinely need to be eradicated rather than only squashed. "
I understand how much you hurt for him but that is your female desire to mother not partner. You can attempt to eradicate this behavior by allowing him to learn the "hard way" and protecting yourself from his consequences. You can't continue your current methods because you know they don't work. If you can take some time to figure out how to protect yourself, you won't feel a need to react to his bad choices.
He will know he screwed up when he experiences some negative outcomes, and he will respect you more for you silence. He will see how your life is working better and then he will have to choose to learn from you or to continue in chaos. But the important thing is to protect yourself financially regardless of what he does/doesn't do.
Brenda
it can help the relationship too
Submitted by happycamper13 on
i have to agree with brenda. go ahead and separate your money. knowing you have control over at least your finances will give you so much peace of mind, and a little more breathing room in your relationship while he figures out some consequences on his own. my partner destroyed us financially, and finally gave me the "deed" i needed to be okay separating our finances (a girl claming paternity who i didn't want to take our money, all of which i made.).
since separating all our accounts, even though he still can't contribute in a meaningful way, he also can't hurt me any worse than he has by spending the money i'm trying to manage. it's taken away many arguments for now, and lots of surprises. i was surprised at how much stress it lifted from me. sometimes we hold on to what we think marriage and partnership should be, even to the detriment of the relationship. protect yourself, and do it without guilt.
I appreciate your input
Submitted by Aspen on
but I am still not ok with seperating our money. That is not the type of marriage either of us choose to have. I think in my frustration while posting someone misunderstood that we are indeed partners in every area of our lives. Financially needs work and we are dealing with it together and with his coach, but we never overspend our monthly income. It isn't as dire as my frustration may have made it sound. My brother, who does not have an ADD mate but does have one who spends indescriminately, thinks I have it great with my husband. Everything is relative.
I am the physical writer of the budget ideally with imput from my husband. He frequently resists this discussion which causes him to overspend his categories. This appears to be tied to the fact that he wants to overspend those categories but doesn't really want to have to justify to me during a budget discussion. We are not talking great amounts here, but I don't think the frustration is based on the numbers but on the fact that the best thing for our family is to be saving rather than spending. He agrees with this when it is discussed, but he doesn't appear to agree fully in his heart because his actions say something different if I am not staying on top of the situation as fully as I should and give him weekly or biweekly updates on what is left of his disposable income.
We have no debt at all which clearly both of us contribute to. He brings in the lion's share of the money and I am the manager of it. He can stick to things with a definite goal in mind. Right now because we want to take a summer trip to the Grand Canyon he is not overspending anywhere. When we were engaged he truly came to understand my feelings about debt and made the agreement to have no debt including our wedding and my engagement ring before we were married. He agreed that was how he wanted to start our marriage, and we both worked hard to make that happen. It isn't that he CAN"T. He just frequently isn't motivated. He thinks if you have it, spend it. Even though he acknowleges that it is our savings which have saved our butts and enabled us to replace vehicles for cash or other financial challenges that come up unexpectedly. He just had trouble denying himself *now* for some nebulous *maybe* problem that could come up in the future.
Since he does not overspend our income, so far the only financial danger to me would exist if I let him take over our finances since he is ill equipped to handle them and may well drive us into the ditch the way that Arwen's husband did. That is why we both know I'm not at a point of following through on that threat, so I have stopped making it. He is responsible for one bill a month and does not have a sterling reputation for handling it without my reminding him (sometimes multiple times) even though he has posted reminders, but I have to admit it is improving. The process for me is much slower than I would like, but it does appear to be consistent with ADD.
When I pin him down and we discuss the budget, he does stick to it for the most part which is why he resists it--at least according to the conversations we have. He feels like there is some type of *well I didn't realize how much I had to deal with* if we don't discuss the budget together.
I really dislike this quality, but it exists and he is working on it with his coach right now. I have also been remiss in letting it to go because I haven't felt like dealing with forcing the discussion. He WILL participate if I push, but I just get tired of being the hall monitor around here. He dislikes that process enough that he makes me dislike the process of getting him on board.
I really hate how LONG it takes to feel any issue is *fixed* when dealing with ADD, but I guess that is my problem as much as his :)
i was vehemently against it too....
Submitted by happycamper13 on
I really do hear you, deeply. I went through EXACTLY the things you are, with the same "understanding moments" where he truly seemed to get it. In theory it was all good when looking at all the budgeting and money stuff I layed out for him, told him, illustrated for him, etc...but days, months or moments later, a "shiny quarter" would distract him, or his unique way of justifying things would kick in. I was adamant about him learning to live with our joint account situation. That's the model that I grew up with and that I thought was right for my marriage, any marriage. I thought I would resent him or we might grow apart, or I'd feel like he was a child if we had to separate our money.
It didn't used to matter for us either, until he stopped working for a while. But things got tough, and our separate finances came about by "accident" when I had to ask him to move out for other reasons. We are very close and working on things, and one reason it's working is because how he handles his money is not as big an issue. What I've realized for my relationship is that I could hold onto what I thought marital finances should look like, full partnership, accountability, joint accounts...or I could hold on to my marriage. That expectation just put too much pressure on him and us.
That is NOT a statement about what you are doing, you have to make the right choices for your marriage and your heart. And you are working with a coach, so that advice is far more valuable than my experience. I was just genuinely surprised at how much better it felt, and that the joint thing didn't matter as much as i thought it would. the peace of mind turned out to be more valuable, and the removal of all the niggling little arguements about money has helped our day to day relationship immeasurably. Just something to think about, or encourage you in case you ever find yourself there by "accident".... I really wish you all the best.
good observation
Submitted by brendab on
Aspen,
This appears to be tied to the fact that he wants to overspend those categories but doesn't really want to have to justify to me during a budget discussion.
This is so on target with what happens when people have different ideas of how money should be spent. Since he may live in the moment perhaps a spending history would be helpful for him to see, like a big picture of how you need him to help you adjust the plan so that he gets some of what he wants and you feel safe that the plan is the guide for a spending budget. I assume you have more leeway about category amounts since you have no debt.
As women and detailed planners I think we lean more toward having money as a safety net whereas men in general do not have this "security gland" that Dave Ramsey talks about. Women are nest builders and want to know that there is money there for not only the essentials but those little rainy days that are sure to come. I'm talking in generalities but I think this applies to many of these ADD/nonADD relationships.
It sounds as if you are on the right track and very observant about what is happening.
brenda
I hate dealing with money. It
Submitted by Clinging to Life on
I hate dealing with money. It stressful and scary and hard. Numbers are not my friend. I do cash as much as I can so I can see how much money I have to spend because I wil never get it right with a card. I have to use a calculator in the grocery store to make sure I dont go over because I juts cant add it up right when I do in my head. Its like my brain rounds everything down or something. $4.95 turns into $4.00 in my head.I always have to leave money at home or I will spend it. And I hate talking and planning about money it makes me so nervous and confused.
The monopoly money thing is funny. My kids are still to young for that game but I tried playing it with my nephew once and wasnt any good at monoply either!
My husband always was in charge of the money which I wish he wasnt cause I know he isnt fair and he has lied to me before. I take care of my own money from work now. A nice girl at work burned me a copy of a real simple buget program and it is okay. Better than a spread sheet those things make me cry! I dont what I will do if I leave my husband! Work hard enough to afford to hire someone and hope they dont cheat me?
Can you and your husband hire someone? Can you just like put him on an allowance until he starts acting like a big boy? Tell him he gets no spending money because you are taking those invoices to an accountant? LOL
Thanks for sharing your experience
Submitted by Aspen on
It is interesting how differently ADD can affect lives. We try to be sure my husband only has a small amount of cash on him to cover incidental needs because it tends to go through his hands like water, and he has no idea what he spent it on! Because he has to save work receipts for our business, and I save all my receipts and file them, he's gotten into the habit of giving me all the receipts and I do a monthly spreadsheet on where our money went. Before discussing the results, we'll talk about how we think the month went & it is strange how often his perception is completely off.
One month after he'd blown a ton of money eating out, he was supposed to be working on not eating out so much. We discussed it several times throughout the month, and he assured me that he was paying attention and doing well. NOT SO AT ALL....he barely spent less than he had the month before. This was pre-diagnosis and I was starting to wonder which of us was crazy. Turns out if he THINKS about doing something a lot, in his mind he feels like he did it. EVEN IF HE ONLY THOUGHT ABOUT IT... a shocking revelation for both of us, and it only makes changing behaviors that much harder to work on. After trying to argue with the totals a few times and being handed his receipts, he slowly became aware that his perception wasn't reality, but still working on something is hard if you think you are working on it!
As far as paying someone to help, no that isn't in our current budget. Really help on these particular forms and totals are something I'd prefer not to hand over to someone else anyway...even our accountant is a family member.
As far as being good with numbers in general, my husband is awesome. He has a very scientific brain. I can hand him a shopping list and a budget, and it is freaky how he can come home with everything on the list and the bill within a dollar of his budget total. But he does the rounding down thing too when he wants something...funny that you mention that as I'd forgotten. He'll want a new electronic that is $59.95 before tax which means it will be at least $65, and he'll as if we have an extra $50 for it--that is a big amount different in my book!
I would never ask my husband to keep up with our accounts. I've told him what is where, but it concerns me that if something happened to me there would be a disaster. I don't expect him to fill out the forms or do the printouts, but what I do expect is for him to review the goals for January, while discussing the numbers for January to see how we met these goals. And to help me prepare for February by fully participating in setting and sticking to February's budget. It is the only way I know to meet the goals you have for your family...spend your money on purpose rather than mindlessly.
We have tried the *no spending money route*. He's even agreed to it as a consequence of overspending it the month before, but since he doesn't hold the past's behaviors in his head (he imagines it much better than it was), he has never stuck to it. We have reduced spending money, but the concept of *when it's gone you can't spend anymore* doesn't stick in his head either. He'll use the business credit card (which we pay off every month and which he knows I go over carefully for our taxes monthly) and then act surprised and embarrassed when he is questioned about it. I should mention the numbers involved here are not huge...we are in no debt....but since our primary goal is to volunteer, it represents too great a percentage of the budget some months. If he is having a hard day...he treats himself. If I am having a hard day...he treats me. It means a lot to me to have him bring me a little gift home cause he knows I've had a bad day, but then when I find he put it on our credit card rather than paying with his *blow* money it partly ruins it for me.
As far as what you'd do if you were suddenly alone. I bet you could pay for a couple hours with a business person (perhaps one who knows something about ADD) to get some systems and checklists set up for you. Checklists seem to do wonders to help my husband. And I suspect you'd be just fine because you'd HAVE to do it for the livlihood of your children. My husband is a master at deflecting anything he thinks he can get out of doing, but when the chips are down and it HAS to be done or else, he tends to step up.
Course that said, I am still waiting on those reports. He won't step foot outside the house today till I have though. That I guarantee....cept for his coaching appt....she needs to straighten him out today LOL
How do you deal with reoccurring problems in general?
Submitted by Aspen on
Hmm I guess that is the entirety of my question :) I am talking about issues that you are both aware of, that is actively being worked on in some sense, but the progress just seems so slow that you feel more needs to be done.