I am 90% certain my soon-to-be ex has ADHD. Our daughter was diagnosed, years ago. There is evidence of the anger and anxiety that seem to go along with ADHD, in him. All the hints were there for him to be self-aware of his ADHD (i.e. hello? your daughter has been diagnosed?) but his ego was too big for him to have any self-awareness. He had an affair and now wants a divorce. I've reached the boiling point because tonight, my other child is struggling with an issue regarding a new friend - who is supposed to come over for dinner - but my daughter is embarrassed that her dad had an affair, that her parents are getting divorced . . . regardless, she is trying to keep her dad happy and therefore considering an invitation for him to come to dinner. She has the character and empathy that he completely lacks.
I don't care what he did to me; I can handle it. But there is absolutely no excuse for his cowardly, selfish behavior and how it impacts his kids. I absolutely despise him for only thinking about himself. He has always lied (although I didn't think he'd have an affair). He has always flirted, to make himself feel good. He has always put himself above all others - his wife, anyone else in the room, his kids.
I absolutely cannot fathom how any human being can be so selfish, particularly in regard to his kids. Does anyone else understand this, and is it related to ADHD or is it just pure selfishness?
I was aware that he had ADHD, for years. I believed he was narcissistic, although he wasn't extreme enough to have NPD.
I don't know if I can ever come to terms for understanding a selfishness that is so deep.
Why don't you think he has NPD?
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
What you've described kind of screams NPD....lies, puts himself above others, flirting with other women to stroke his ego (they're suppliers), an affair (which likely was not the first), his treatment of you and your kids, etc.
I'm not sure what extreme you expect to meet the threshold of NPD. What you've described is how NPD men behave...lies, self centered, putting themselves above others, affairs, flirting, and uncaring about his kids.
Watch out....read divorcing a Narcissist. Even though HE wants the divorce, I can almost assure you that he will turn ugly....maybe because the divorce will cost more than he thought, maybe because he won't want to pay much child support, maybe because he'll be angry about how assets or debts will be split.
And he won't be happy that you're appearing to be fine with the divorce. I'm not saying that you should act upset, because you seem to have accepted it. But, to a narcissist who has asked for the divorce, the last thing they want is for their soon-to-be-ex not to be upset. They will take that as an insult. They want to "pat themselves on the back" with the belief that they're "dumping you". Well if you're not upset, then you're not playing the role that they want....the upset dumped spouse.
How do I know? I've been thru this. My H never cheated, but he flirts and needs all those warm fuzzies from other women, which is so comical since he's old enough to be their grandfather.
When H filed for divorce, not only did I act like I was fine with it (I wasn't for a number of financial reasons), but I counter-sued him for divorce WITH CAUSE which allowed me to expose (and embarrass him) by forcing him to answer certain questions under oath about his alcoholism, his meds abuse, mental cruelty, his taking other people's meds, his horrible emails and texts that he sent to me, take ownership of horrible drunk recorded phone messages, and so on. He was absolutely humiliated in front of his attorney (who until that point, thought he was this "nice guy". ) lol His attorney couldn't get rid of him fast enough. His brother and his wife also were exposed to the sworn testimony and he lost their support. In one email, he tried to claim that there was another woman (to hurt me), which I knew wasn't true. But, I got the last laugh when that email was included in his deposition and he had to admit to the court that he made that up to upset me...so exposing that he was and is a liar. lol...it didn't upset me. I knew that it wasn't true. My H never had any unexplained time or phone calls or texts or money being spent on someone else. He was always home within a few minutes of the end of his work day, he came home for lunch most days, the idea of him having an affair was a joke. Men who have affairs leave some sort of trace...money being spent, texts, phone calls, unexplained time, etc.
Luckily, he's not the type to resort to violence against me, which was my saving grace. I would not have attempted any of that if he were the type to be violent against women. If he had, I'd be dead now, for sure.
What's the Difference?
Submitted by kellyj on
I absolutely cannot fathom how any human being can be so selfish, That's because you have a conscience that is actively and properly working. Even under the worst or extreme conditions you can imagine for yourself......there is only so low that you can go before your conscience, guilt and shame start to take over and prevent you from going any further. This is normal for most people. Your statement is a huge red flag for Narcissism because this is the area that is screwed up with a person like this. Their conscience (and inability to empathize) is why they can be this way and seemingly.....still function as if nothing happened.
particularly in regard to his kids......regardless, she is trying to keep her dad happy and therefore considering an invitation for him to come to dinner. She has the character and empathy that he completely lacks. But she lacks the ability to resolve this conflict she is having the same as an adult. This is the kind of thing that she will carry around with her for years (possibly for the rest of her life) if she doesn't get the help from you to be able to make any sense of this in a objective (unbiased) rational way. This is the abuse and the effect this kind of thing has on children. I should know.....I was your daughter in this respect in my own childhood experience. It can tear you apart emotionally if you cannot get these kinds of things resolved as a child and they cannot do this by themselves.
Does anyone else understand this, and is it related to ADHD or is it just pure selfishness? Yes, I do.....and there appears to be a relationship........and sort of. Pathological pure selfishness is the foundation for Narcissism but this can play out in many different ways..... and different levels severeness. What looks like Narcissism for a person with ADHD (being self absorbed or clueless about others needs at times) I think are somewhat and/or subtly to completely different things. That is as confusing to me at times as it was just rereading that back to myself! lol It may share some the of the same outward features at first glance....but it is not exactly the same when it comes to the kind of thing you are talking about. In other words......pathological Narcissism is and is not directly related to executive function but there is a relationship to it.
Using myself as one example. In my efforts to manage and maintain and try and keep myself level (reduce stress and stay in my comfort zone) I have to be careful not to do this and not consider other people and their needs at the same time.(one at the total expense of the other). I think that's a fair description of how my ADHD can make me appear more Narcissistic than the average person.....AT TIMES!.....not in a chronic pathological sense. If I am so focused on do this for myself and focused on what I need to do this or stay this way.......I don't always consider (or am at times oblivious) to how this is effecting others by simply not focusing on them at the same time. What you get with this are moments or times when I will randomly or unintentionally be inconsiderate or less considerate at some times more than others when this happens. Lessor so now that I have become aware of this fact and now recognize the times when this is most likely to happen. It means I have to catch myself ahead of time and know what to look out for and pay attention to it. If I can do this successfully and consistently.......the problems I ran into in the past are minimized to the point that these instances will only surface under more severe moments of stress and I lose my ability to split my focus between myself and others.
I'm saying....this behavior is the same behavior that is shared with someone without ADHD and is a Narcissist but......that is where it begins and ends. I would never....and have never cheated in my past marriages. Even if I had my moments of self doubt or times of weaknesses or was tempted by the opportunity (which I had on several occasions and I wanted to really badly....the sex life between my ex wife and I had almost completely disappeared at the time and we were functionally operating as room mates in our relationship emotionally and otherwise)....when it came right down to following through and actually doing something like this (including any other major decision to go against what I thought was right or wrong) having ADHD has nothing to do with my ability to make cognitive choices and to either not be aware or know what I was doing. You cannot say that having an affair could be blamed on being completely oblivious to what is obviously a conscious decision that a person has to make. That's a choice not a lapse in focus or attention in the moment.
I also don't flirt of feel the need to to gain admiration or attention of other women. I never do because I don't have the need or desire to do this even if I didn't feel there was anything wrong it. Right or wrong.... I get nothing from it or feel the this need in order to make myself feel attractive or have my ego stroked and therefore...I don't. That's not ADHD either. Neither is cowardly behavior, lack of character or the need to put yourself above others or completely dismissing other peoples needs in pursuit of your own on a cognitive level.
She has the character and empathy that he completely lacks..(i.e. hello? your daughter has been diagnosed?) There you go......that's your answer right there.
J
Yes!
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
<<<<That's because you have a conscience that is actively and properly working. Even under the worst or extreme conditions you can imagine for yourself......there is only so low that you can go before your conscience, guilt and shame start to take over and prevent you from going any further. This is normal for most people. Your statement is a huge red flag for Narcissism because this is the area that is screwed up with a person like this. Their conscience (and inability to empathize) is why they can be this way and seemingly.....still function as if nothing happened.>>>>>
Right!
I think that a lot of people misunderstand NPD. I think they think it's mostly about people who are extremely vain, which can also be the case, but that isn't really a main component at all.
Anyone with an Axis II PD is mentally unhealthy. Unlike "regular people," they don't have that guilt feeling that kicks in when the rest of us are on the verge of being selfish. They have an entitlement attitude that is so extreme that there's no "checks and balances" within them that discerns whether their words or actions will hurt or injure others.
The funny (well, not funny) thing is, the same person who can behave in a very self-serving way without any guilt-feelings can easily see how WRONG those same actions are when it's someone else doing them.
NPD can manifest so differently in people that it can be hard...
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
....it can be hard to diagnose.
As J mentions, he never cheated on his spouse. My MIL has never cheated on her spouse. She wasn't the more typical NPD mother. She is beloved by her kids, truly. They think she's amazing. There is no "there there." She a shell. There's nothing there except charm, a smiling face, and passive-aggressive behavior that is so hidden that most don't even see it. Even those who might know that "mom" wants her way, excuse it because "she's so nice."'
I'm always mystified as to why her children don't pause and think, "hmmm, other moms do _____ and _____, but our mom doesn't do anything." She's great about telling them that she loves them, but she's the only mom I know who does NOTHING, and never did anything for her kids.
Back to your spouse: Your spouse is rather typical of a NPD spouse. Self-serving, cheater, no empathy, and so on.
Adding To What You Said
Submitted by kellyj on
I think that a lot of people misunderstand NPD. I think they think it's mostly about people who are extremely vain, which can also be the case, but that isn't really a main component at all. Thinking in terms of an actor....or a very flamboyant gay man ( a Queen ) like Liberace....he was definitely a Narc and fit this profile but that's just one type....there are many more permutations that are completely different than this. What you see on the outside is not what is on the inside. That's the whole point and the hard part to diagnose or see. Why? Because it really is an act in an very scary way. The false self that they project can be as different from one person to the next and as different as there are people in the world. But there is a different person lurking within that even they are not aware of. This is the person driving their car and only thinks of himself/herself. This is the one that does the damage to you and the one they are working so hard to hide from the outer world.
The actor is the one you see and it really is just an act. They are phonies in the real sense of the word. What you see is what they want you to see and the anger and rage (that suddenly appears or lashes out at you) is the one inside protecting itself from being exposed to the outside world.
The problem with this for you is that they expose themselves at times whether you do anything to bring this out in them or not. In a perfect world where nothing ever goes wrong (in theory)....and a Narc would get all of his/her needs met all the time in every situation or case you can think of......you might never be able to tell that a person is like this. Under those circumstances.....they could be the most charming and engaging, wonderfully warm, giving and caring individual you could ever meet and you yourself would find them to be as perfect as they appear. All would be good and you probably wouldn't have a thing to complain about. Without anything standing in their way.....Narcs can be extremely self motivating in their own pursuit of what they want and get what they want most of the time. That's why you see them in positions of power.....world leaders, politicians, CEO's and heads huge corporations. Unfortunately....the need to be over you does translate to success and power for many individuals like this. Under those circumstances.....they can excel and do extremely well and they can be extremely benevolent and appear very sincere and giving in that context......as long as it serves them in some way.
The problem comes when things aren't so perfect and they aren't getting something out of the deal. When you need them or need to count on them to for something you need that does not serve them in any way.....when you take a closer look at the pretty billboard that looked good from a distance.....when you get right up to it and look what's behind it.....there's nothing there and they are as shallow and thin as the board that the picture you see is pasted on.
That's why it's so hard to diagnose.....and they don't want you look'in behind the bill board to see what is there. Exposure is the worst thing you can do with a Narc.
J
Yes I get it
Submitted by ChrisChris on
My father could be like you described - and the selfishness regarding his kids got worse as he aged. I totally totally get what you are saying.
Mortality
Submitted by kellyj on
I think that has a lot to do with it.....that and loss of power, loss of health, loss of youth, loss of strength and good looks and appearance. It's the outside appearance that is most important. When they lose that....they lose everything. Money can make up for it I think. Money = power. I think they spend most of their lives looking backward and fearing the future and lamenting that they can't go back. My father vacillated between being angry and irritable to please help me, I am so weak and helpless as he aged and then finally passed away. No one cares about me anymore.... to..... you aren't doing enough for me...you're all selfish. Right.
Amending what I said earlier....I don't think they are hard to diagnose as much as they are hard to get into therapy and not quit as soon as they don't like how it's going. That's more like it. That....and most of what I've described only fits the one I know intimately. Not all Narc act like this either. There are a number of other versions too and they can be quite a bit different than each other in outward behavior.
J