I know that forums like this (and almost any internet forum focused on a single issue or hobby or product) attracts nearly exclusively people with problems - people don't search the internet and start posting about things if they're happy, after all.
But browsing here on and off for the last nine months or so is a really shocking experience.
I am 61. Figured out/was diagnosed ADD (or ADHD inattentive) last summer.
Have been working with therapists for several years. Added an ADHD-skilled therapist in January.
Got prescriptions, and take them.
Really got my eyes opened to how ADD affects how I live and really try to change how I show up in life, including marriage.
The situations that are often reported here are just beyond my comprehension. I'd love to read something from someone who's had a success story with their partner/marriage (or significant other/committed relationship). Hoping that there are some happy folks out there!
Welcome John.
Submitted by AdeleS6845 on
It is disheartening to read all these posts from people who are so unhappy and have challenges in their marriages.
I am not married to my significant other and we do not live together. We are engaged, and plan on marrying after my daughter graduates from high school which will be next year.
For the last five years, I have spent every other week with my fiance at his house. (My daughter would spend every other week at her dad's house, and we lived in the same town.) I know it isn't the same as living with him, but I believe that I have a good picture of what living with him full-time would be like. We have had issues of miscommunication and we have had ups and downs like any other couple. That said, our challenges have not been as dramatic as some of those posted on this site.
BTW, I am the "Non" in the relationship.
My fiance was diagnosed with ADHD as a child. He went through a period where he was medicated in his previous marriage and didn't like the way the medication made him feel. He said it stifled his creativity and made him feel like a zombie. He is currently not medicated but because of a good cognitive behavioral therapist, he was able to organize his life in a way that works for him. Outside of his exuberance and high energy you would not know that he has ADHD by looking at his him. His house is in order mostly. He is never late paying his bills, and is early when going to work/appointments. He has a routine that he follows every day. Developing routines that work for him have made all the difference in his life.
From the stories he has told me of his younger days, (we are both in our 50s), our relationship would never have worked if we had met when we were in our twenties or thirties. I was more laid back and he was definitely wild when he was younger.
We met at the perfect time it seems.
It all changed after getting married
Submitted by Sabine on
Though my situation was good too ... until after we got married. Few months later some adhd drama started. Turns out that's not an uncommon occurrence. Great while dating or taking turns at houses... but after marriage increasing distance and aloofness
That is my concern.
Submitted by AdeleS6845 on
Many of us John have happy moments.....
Submitted by c ur self on
Many of us love our spouses, they are loving folks...My wife for the most part is a happy girl...She loves her family, and they love her...She thinks and gets on a Childs level very easily...She runs after them, plays with them, and they just love their Mimi....She works hard on her public job, and other than the struggle to get there in a timely fashion, I think her employer likes her as well...
Most of the problems in our marriage relationships aren't about love at all...It's about the inability to trust them to be responsible...In my case (I bet a high percentage if people would confess it) I'm the one who starts most of the conflict over the years....And I have done that just by pointing out her refusal/inabilities to choose marital responsibility and marital work, over self focused good times, at the expense of the marriage....
I am clapping my hands for you!....A person who cares enough to look in the mirror and deal with the product, to make it something people are drawn to......Because most of here who are or have hurt, aren't hurting because of add/adhd...Our pain and suffering is because of their refusal to own it....Denial...
Bless you
c
So correct, and thank you, but...?
Submitted by JohnN on
What's the but? I struggle with some of this.
I take the meds.
I have done counseling, and am doing counseling, trying to change my thinking and improve my daily toolbox (which actually works, semi-amazingly).
But.
But one thing I just don't know how to change, or even if they can change. That one thing is the there-is-only-now perspective. If drugs or therapy can change that, I haven't figured it out yet.
It really does affect my ability to "show up.' We used to argue, I used to argue, about "facts," things I didn't remember, because the past largely vanishes and all time is now. I finally realized that my wife couldn't be so consistently wrong about that, so maybe it was me, and got a lot of neuropsych testing, which (at 60) showed some pretty significant ADD symptoms. So - the good is, I know I really can't argue about this any more. :-)
But the bad is that trying to have a conversation, like yesterday with a couples counselor, about what my wife is experiencing with me, is really, really challenging.
Her: When you ____, I felt _____.
Me: What did I do that made you feel that way?
Her: You said ____________.
Me: I said that? Two days ago? I truly do not remember saying that...
Do you see how this goes? Have you experienced this?
Behaviors - I can change that. My self-awareness and thinking - I can change those. Horrible memory? - can't really change that. And the all-time-is-now thing is like a neurological handicap. It's organic, not cognitive or behavioral.
I accept it as such but it's frickin' frustrating.
I understand John....
Submitted by c ur self on
Before I say anything; i want to just say, I haven't met (on this site for 6 years) anyone w/ add/adhd, who was attempting to approach it with the matter of fact attitude (the reality of it all) as you are...Or, you can count them on one hand anyway.....
But, I understand about this dynamic you speak of....It's been responsible for destroying a LOT of conversation attempts over our 12 year marriage....There has to be wisdom used here...Number one you need to continue thinking outside the box, in order to help yourself, (things you are already doing for the most part) in any future conversation with anyone...Because you have lived long enough to realize that the past, words and actions, just pops up from time to time, it doesn't matter if we want them to or not....My thought (something I wish my wife would do) is you should trust your wife...She loves you, and she could be wrong, (human) but, you know that this (fixed thing going on in your mind) short term memory issue, lack of recall, or what ever you want to call it, is there....Also, I suggest you work to develop an heightened awareness (mind pictures) of the circle of daily life, draw it in diagram form if it helps...Each day is a huge pie circle...And every small slice has to be done (words and actions)...But, it never goes completely away, it's still there, just in the past (we just turn the page, like reading a book)...Like the things you spoke during the conversation you used as your example above, (flipped back two pages for the wife, while you were mostly throwing your pages away).....Most neuro typical's do this without a thought, but, some of us have to work harder at it....
The main goal for ALL married couples is, "lets have a good life together" "UNITY"....(not compete, or beat our chests and argue) That can never happen if we ALL don't recognize our limitations, humble ourselves, practice understanding, respect and forgiveness...WE non's and adder's MUST not live defensive and or defiant....As long as our pride don't push us into denial, then we have a chance.....
I've asked my wife to leave, because she will fight to the death, then turn and run away, instead of owning her realities....I asked her to leave because I finally accepted her reality....I want her to be happy, but, she can't be happy as my wife, living in a mind that refuses to own it's lived out realities...Denial isn't something we can fight, we have to accept it, it destroys all hope of unity...So we have to shut up, walk away and accept the loneliness...But at some point we must decide if we are going to stay tied to the hopeless situation...I have plenty of faults like all human's, but, I can apologize and ask for forgiveness, own it w/o blame...(my goal)...I love the unity that comes from 2 being 1...But the bottom line in marriage is, there must be 2 people who feels and lives with the tools (respect, openness, approachability, kindness, understanding, ownership of self) that make up this thing we call LOVE.....
Bless you John!
Meant to add that I really
Submitted by JohnN on
Meant to add that I really liked this, and thank you for it:
Also, I suggest you work to develop an heightened awareness (mind pictures) of the circle of daily life, draw it in diagram form if it helps...Each day is a huge pie circle...And every small slice has to be done (words and actions)...
Your ability to be in the now is a gift!
Submitted by Non-ADHD_Lynn on
Hi John,
There are thousands, if not millions, of people who are reading books, taking expensive workshops, traveling to conferences all over the world, watching YouTube videos, and hiring mentors to be able to achieve your amazing ability to live in the present moment. It's a gift, John, and I will try to explain why! One of my favorite things about my ADHD boyfriend is his ability to be in the "now." He is my teacher!
Eckhart Tolle is one of today's top ten spiritual leaders. He's up there with the Pope and the Dalai Lama (https://globein.com/blog/10-influential-spiritual-leaders-around-world/). He wrote a book called "The Power of Now" that myself, Oprah, and many others around the world keep on their bedside table. The main idea of his life attitude and that of Byron Katie (another world leader) is that all pain comes from our own thoughts and from *not* being in the present moment. When we are focusing our thoughts on the past or the future, we fail to live in the present moment, and that can cause suffering in the form of being angry, sad, worrying, criticizing, judging, etc. You may find that this type of thinking about life could help you and your wife appreciate your unique ability - again, an ability which people like myself spend lots of money and time to achieve!
Here is one of many possible short videos which I hope will help you better understand your amazing talent:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsQJyKhmqkQ&list=PL1m9CTz_nEjGIsXzpNIxdd... (Jim Carrey on being in the moment)
Byron Katie's wisdom has also helped me to judge my ADHD partner less and to meet him where he is in each moment rather than expecting certain outcomes from him. We are each free to be ourselves and the true joy that comes with this mindset can't be understated! I attended one of her workshops, read her books, and watched her videos online (her website is thework.com and she also has a YouTube channel).
Being in the now is a skill and a gift if you can learn to think of it that way!
All the best.
Thank you, but honestly? - it
Submitted by JohnN on
Thank you, but honestly? - it doesn't feel like it for me, at least not yet. Until I was diagnosed last year, it caused all kinds of carnage.
The easiest example is money. Budgeting was always tense because, and I know this sounds nuts, I really can't connect what I spent last week to what I spent today to what needs to be paid next week. I should say that I probably could do a far better job with that if I were running the family checkbook (my wife and I have always had joint accounts), but I don't. Now that I know what's going on, it is a little easiser to be aware and take that into account.
A more subtle issue that probably is actually bigger, for me, is that whatever is now is all that there is. Sounds great? Well, if you and I just had a big argument and I'm thinking you're a controlling b!tch, or feeling like you are laying into me with complaints about who I am rather than what I did and angry or discouraged about that, that's all that is my reality. When things are good, they're good going backwards and forward. But when they're not, that goes backwards and forwards, too, and it recharacterizes our history and our future. Intellectually I understand that these are cognitive distortions, but it is extremely tough to reshape those. Maybe I'll get a better grip on that with enough therapy, but it's still a big issue for me because it's way down deep in my wiring. :-(
Budgeting
Submitted by MelissaOrlov on
Have you ever looked into MINT? It's a program that allows you to set a budget, and then tracks your spending in real time, so you can always look at it to know where you are. (It links to your accounts and credit cards). It will also alert you when you get close to reaching your budget for a given period...might help you.
Can you tell me more?
Submitted by Sabine on
The phenomenon you are describing is exactly the thing that makes my marriage unlivable. Ive tried explaining the phenomenon to therapist but they refuse to acknowledge that its real. Every single therapist tell me I'm being judgmental. I feel like I'm just being honest when I say that my husband doesn't have a sense of how time works. There is no context in his mind. One feeling reprograms all past and future thoughts. Its like history is rewritten on the drop of a dime.
Is there a name for this? Is this something therapist has been able to help with? Is this adhd or something else?
I feel like this is the first time that someone else is describing what I'm seeing.
That description reminds me
Submitted by Range_Rover_17 on
That description reminds me of my mom, who has dementia.
A few thoughts...
Submitted by tfarmer on
First, Congrats to you JohnN for being able to find the objectivity needed to dig into this issue so far and so fast. My wife was diagnosed about 8 years ago and has not been able or willing to tear down the walls that you have in one. I find that truly remarkable!
She wrestles with the same budget and spending issues as you. She does not seem able to get her head around the fact that x cannot be spent today because that means the balance will be y-x tomorrow, next week, next month etc. when x+y is needed. ( opportunity cost )
I am not a couselor, and I don’t know if this will be helpful or not but my two cents ... The budget thing appears to be related to the idea of cumulative things in general. She is like the kid taking trigonometry that argues the geometric identities learned two years earlier should not be required for this new class.
Through much discussion we have learned there is a profound difference in the way our minds work. Life and memory for me play out like a movie or video. There is a linearity to my organization and recall. Her life and memory play out like a series of still frame images. Her organization and recall are organized like a spreadsheet or matrix. She has to work much, much harder to organize, file and implement a system of recall for all of those still frames than I do a stream of video. Just given the method she must use and the volume of information she must deal with is exhausting and overwhelming for her. Likewise, it is virtually impossible to juggle all that data without making a mistake, which my “video” points out all too often
Understanding this was a breakthrough for me. It could account for the short term memory issues, the cumulative challenges, why the ADHD symptoms are amplified when she is tired, not had enough exercise, has not eaten well, etc. What it does not justify is the defensiveness when the video and the snapshots do not align.
Is it possible to have a happy marriage? Absolutely. It takes trust and acceptance by both people to work together and agree to organize life in a pragmatic way that allows each person to use their strengths and minimize their weaknesses. I do the finances, my wife may never learn how to properly manage that stuff. It’s okay, I can. She is a former insurance agent and she likes that stuff and is good at it. That is hers. I hate it and suck at it.
If you keep going as you appear to be headed you are well on your way to solving many of the problems you read about on here. As C said the root cause of many of those lie in denial. Not in denying the ADHD, but denying the “carnage” ( I like that btw! ) left in its wake.
The flip side Is for us non-ADHD spouses to trust and accept ( no micromanagement! ) that mistakes will happen. They can be fixed. We also have to accept that ADHD will never be cured, it will never completely go away. What I have come to call the “giant” of my wife’s self imposed shame and denial driven defensiveness is always waiting in the corner of the room. I can’t kill him, only she can.
Kill your giant. NOW.
All the best.
Thank you - that description
Submitted by JohnN on
Thank you - that description of the processing differences is really amazingly accurate. One thing I think I don't see there, as an additional factor, is that it's easy to feel like there huge numbers of separate data streams coming at you and it totally overloads me, very quickly. I can now explain that, though. "Wait a sec, there's too much here for me to process - i need to back up and go slower." That was not intuitive because I am exceptionally bright. But I have what's essentially a significant hardware/processing handicap.
I agree about defensiveness not being justified, but until I understood what was happening and why, I fought like hell. Sorry. You need to understand that I thought my reality was valid and that you were trying to completely invalidate my reality. Now that I understand, I know that I can't take that position around certain types, maybe most types, of factual memory issues. But once I got that, letting it go was really not a problem. Here's another issue with that, though.
What I have to do is essentially out-source a lot of memory and management issues to my wife. At one level, that's fine, it's just matching tasks to abilities, and as long as I do as much as I can, I think we're good, though different couples could have different results. But at another level, it feels to me like out-sourcing my memory function to her is surrendering a part of my personhood, my individuality, my reality. Consider this - a lot of who we think we are is based on what we experience, which in turn depends on what we remember. It's uncomfortable to feel like you can't quite ground yourself in your own reality. Hard to explain; I hope that communicates a bit.
I think I have slain the Giant. There may be involuntary post-mortem twitches, but I think it's down for the count and then some. Minor little vignette showing a great response from my wife. We discussed ordering dinner to take out yesterday. She was teaching college classes online so I was going to order and pick up. Well, it got lost in the chaos of a day "at work" that would probably have challenged almost anyone. I said "oops, it's too late, sorry." What she said was perfect but may not have been easy: "that's no problem, I've given up worrying about things like that as long as it doesn't make -you- angry." And it doesn't. Somewhere along a lot of counseling for other issues, like having been literally whipped and beaten as a kid, I found a big well of compassion for everyone, importantly including myself (that was the hardest part). So...hey, what's in the freezer that we can nuke? :-)
That data overload you
Submitted by tfarmer on
That data overload you mentioned is clearly a factor for my wife. It appears she has developed some kind of cognitive algorithm to deal with that. It also applies to interpersonal communication for her. She is as much in tune with the nonverbal communication, facial clues, etc., to try to get ahead of what is being said so she can start forming her reply. It seems to serve her pretty well but is not fail safe. Sometimes her response will be completely unrelated to what was being said creating some socially awkward and humorous situations. But here again, it is all designed to mask the processing issue instead of addressing it ... which your approach certainly does.
The giant. I hate that guy ... and all the giants that have been created from the self imposed shame people with ADHD have felt and feel. There is zero shame in ADHD! As the poster above noted, it can be quite a gift. When considering us "video" types have to be diligent about not holding onto things too much or too long!
I actually think you have slain your giant. I just wanted to reiterate how important I think that is.
By the way, have I ever told you I don't like the giant? ;)
This ... this is profound!!
"But at another level, it feels to me like out-sourcing my memory function to her is surrendering a part of my personhood, my individuality, my reality. Consider this - a lot of who we think we are is based on what we experience, which in turn depends on what we remember. It's uncomfortable to feel like you can't quite ground yourself in your own reality. Hard to explain; I hope that communicates a bit."
That comment stopped me dead in my tracks!! I have never once considered it from that perspective. Thank you! I tend to be so focused on the trust issue, especially with regard to the memory stuff, it never occurred to me that personal identity, reality and fear of losing the only self she has ever known could be involved. Not just hiding ADHD from herself. That all would be very scary I think.
I have often noticed her personality traits tend to be somewhat situational. When you consider that matrix of still frames was at work in the formative years, before the processing strategies were developed .... Just wow!!!
You have given me A LOT to think about.
Thank you again!
I am getting a lot out of
Submitted by JohnN on
I am getting a lot out of this thread - thank you all. A few further thoughts.
Your comment about your wife trying "to get ahead of what is being said so she can start forming her reply" struck a chord. I've done that all my life - have been trying to avoid that now. I always figured it was just bad interpersonal skills, but thinking about your comment made me think that maybe this trying to pre-formulate a response has a lot to do with a combination of too much data coming at me and a fear that I won't remember, 20 seconds from now, what I was thinking when you were speaking to me. And about the second part, I am not being humorous in the least.
And this is really insightful (thank you!): "Likewise, it is virtually impossible to juggle all that data without making a mistake, which my “video” points out all too often." That is a great description. There's a lot of mental chaos, except when there isn't. It's binary. Laser focus (don't disturb me!) or no focus (huh? I'm not following what's going on here, I can't proces...).
I also want to underscore how unsettling and un-grounding it is to think that you can't actually know your own truth. I am not sure it's possible to really appreciate it if you don't suffer from it - not saying you can't, just not sure you can. A lot of life is like that.
The other thing I want to say, and I am not being negative or depressed or whatever when I say this, but at least for me, I do from time to time struggle with a feeling of shame that I'm defective or incomplete or something in that range. I know I should think "different" not "defective," but not fitting into the world that you all inhabit easily is very hard at times.
The other thing (yet another thing!) is that I really want to gently take issue with the time warp issue being an advantage. It's not what you think. I have learned to meditate to try to be present. There is NOTHING at all about my ADD time warp that amounts to being present "now" or even helps with that. Ironically, it's the opposite. There are some gifts from ADD, but being "present" in the moment is not one of them, at least not for me. Which prompts me to say that EVERYTHING I'm saying is really just from my own experience, and I no longer assume that my experiences are like anyone else's. :-) (very big smile there)
Thank you all for all the extremely thoughtful and helpful discussion here!
Time Warp
Submitted by tfarmer on
Just to be clear, I am in agreement with you, that can be a big problem. I think Melissa Orlov calls it the two time zones of ADHD ... now, and not now.
From what I have observed the shame associated with ADHD is an artifact of our generation ( 59 yrs. here ). I can clearly look back at people I have known In my past that were ADHD and even autistic, but those things were not diagnosed then.
My stepdaughter was diagnosed with ADHD at 16 ( like many that is what led to my wife's diagnosis ). She has been on medication and some counseling since. For her age group, there is no shame or insecurity associated with that. It is just part of who she is. She does not carry any of the shame, defensiveness, or the not fitting in stuff that you and my wife have both had to endure
I am hopeful and optimistic that both you and my wife will understand that today, you are the only people looking at yourself that way.
My stepdaughter just finished grad school and will be starting her teaching career in the fall as an intervention specialist. That shame business will only get better with people like her helping out.
You all are the best. :-)
Submitted by JohnN on
You all are the best. :-)
I just re-read your earlier post and want to say how incredibly accurately this describes the mental chaos of all-or-nothing focus, which is one of the ADD/ADHD handicaps: "Likewise, it is virtually impossible to juggle all that data without making a mistake, which my “video” points out all too often"
I am not really so optimistic that your wife and I are the only people who see ADD/ADHD people that way, though. Among other problems, I think it's probably really hard, very understandably hard, for the non- partner not to think "he/she must be doing that on purpose." Because, if they were doing it, it would be on purpose. For most of us others, I don't think that's true, at least not most of the time.
Having said that, I do think ADD/ADHD people need to take responsibility, at least once they know. (Taking responsibility for something you don't know is difficult, by definition, and people your age and my age were out of school decades before people started looking for this.). Either take responsibility for their contributions to the carnage, or take responsibility for dealing with it. I am sighing, because I know that ten years ago I probably would have flatly refused to do counseling or take pills. I might not have even seen the need for different behavior, but if I had it would have been like trying to drive a standard-shift vehicle with one arm and one leg tied up.
Love this :)
Submitted by c ur self on
(Sometimes her response will be completely unrelated to what was being said creating some socially awkward and humorous situations).
I lean toward (details) monologue's....Worst thing in the world trying to converse w/ her....Sometimes I will stop and seek clarifications...."Are you hearing me?"..She will say I heard you, you've made three grammatical mistakes....I will say fine, but what did I say? She want have a clue...:( LOL....
Everyone is diiferent, but, I have to be aware that my wife gets easily lost trying to track in conversation...Especially one she has no interest in (not exciting or fun for her).....
Oh goodness. Do you know how
Submitted by JohnN on
Oh goodness.
"Especially one she has no interest in (not exciting or fun for her)..... " You do get it. But...
Do you know how that dialog goes on in my head?
You're not paying attention.
I know, it's hard.
Try harder.
I am, it isn't working.
You should be able to pay attention, this is important.
I know...it's really hard...my brain is different.
You're making excuses. Try harder!
I'm trying, I'm doing what I talked about with my ADD guy.
Then why the f*ck are you not keeping up with this? What's wrong with you?
ADD is what it is and I'm doing the best I can with what I've got.
*Sigh* as Charles Schulz used to say.
I really thank you all for this dialog. :-) I want to let you know, though, that I haven't once typed out a reply where without losing some tears. This is hard stuff to confront and work on. Maybe that's why people stay in denial. I mean, think about it - what does it feel like to realize that part of your reality just isn't reliably available to you? That you can't trust your memory and have to rely on someone else, who you may trust, mostly, but isn't perfect either? To have to continually struggle, intentionally, with stupid things like making sure you never say "I'll do that later" and instead repeat to yourself "do it now"..."touch it once"...good tools, but why do I need to use tools, why do I need to remember to use tools, I wish I could just make it happen...
The good news is ... you have
Submitted by tfarmer on
The good news is ... you have the ability to actually step back and look at these situations. Hopefully with your help, your wife is developing the same perspective. That is majorly important for both people in these scenarios! That helps create empathy and acceptance for everyone which, I believe, is the first step toward addressing your originally posted question. There is little value to asking a fish what it is to be wet.
That is why I have spent a lot of time observing my wife's interactions, etc. I can't fix this, but I can try to understand it as best I can from my own position of subjectivity. It benefits both my wife and myself. That is also why your point about identity / reality was so important. It blew up a long held ... and wrong headed ... assumption I did not even know existed. I need to look past the defensiveness to better understand the true dynamic at work behind the scenes. Otherwise it will just result in more negativity and arguments.
This thread is the best discussion I have ever had about ADHD and am grateful for that! Prior to reading your post this week, it had been > 2 years since I was last on here. I just popped in looking for an article. I don't think that was an accident.
In my mind, happiness is like love ... it is a decision, not a feeling or set of circumstances. Empathy and acceptance go a long way to aiding that decision.
The non must accept and choose to be happy knowing that ADHD will always be in the mix at some level and empathize with the struggles you have so eloquently described here. It will forever be a work in progress. It simply cannot be a big deal to walk into the kitchen and find the dishwasher partially unloaded and the door open, along with several cabinets, and nobody home. ( This happened a couple days ago ). We must wisely choose our battles and focus on what really matters.
Knowing why that is ... something popped into her head she forgot to do earlier and she went after it. I have learned to accept this and it can even bring a smile to my face.. I assure you that has not always been the case!!!! We need to forget the past ... and the resentment that comes from our video archive and focus on moving forward. Letting go of the idea that some debt exists for the past trials we have experienced ( This is huge).
Likewise, the ADHD person must acknowledge the carnage that has been created while wrestling with this stuff. It is even more difficult because for folks like you and my wife, it must start with a level of self awareness and self-acceptance that is not familiar, and certainly does not feel safe. A major effort and sacrifice not encountered, understood, or even visible to the non partner ( this I learned from you! ) yet critical to success for both partners. Only after the giant is subdued, if not killed, can productive discussions take place addressing the rest. The ADHD partner must learn to understand the processing issues make communication, and day to day life much more difficult for the non than we are used to. The impact of that is cumulative for the non, not a set of unrelated, isolated events. The ADHD partner also must accept the non will forever be a work in progress.
In the final analysis, both must seek partnership, not competition. Easily said, gut wrenchingly difficult to put onto practice because it takes tearing down walls that may have been built up over decades for both.
The stone cold reality for the non is that in almost all cases, it will require the non to take the first steps to build that partnership. We are certainly not innocent bystanders in all of this, and share the responsibility for the conflicts. However, it is very easy for us to feel victimized. To adopt the idea "this is your problem, not mine, go fix it ... manage it ... whatever, just stop _________ ( fill in the blank )". I have done exactly that. It is simple toxic pride and selfishness. Nothing more.
You may think this little quote is stupid, but it is a very simple, but difficult requirement for both partners to move toward answering your original question. ADHD, like everything else in a marriage is a shared reality.
"Do, or Do not. There is no try" -- Yoda
So much good stuff here..
Submitted by JohnN on
So much good stuff here...thank you!
It is hard for all. I am trying to look at everything with compassion now, and I think I succeed almost all the time with the people in or close to my daily life. Have mostly given up needing to be right about things, which was a big burden shed. And you can see, you see in your own life and marriage (smiling) that those of us on the other side probably have to face the fact that we aren't going to be right a surprising amount of the time. It's really hard. This conversation is a real energizer.
I think that the ADD/ADHD partner, on their side, probably doesn't really appreciate how difficult they can make their non partner's life. One of the nice things about this thread is that it gives me a little better window on what it's like on the other side. I have to say that a lot of the posts here are (to me) about such extreme cases that it's almost impossible for me to take any information in from them. Things like "he hasn't taken a shower in two weeks and the last time he did any laundry was three months ago, he just keeps wearing dirty clothes, and if the Health Department ever sees all the half-eaten burgers in his car they will impound it right there." It's unbelievably horrible that things like that can happen, and unbelievable is how they do seem to me. I just can't relate to that.
I was reminded of something this morning. There is a sort of bright side to a really bad memory. If my wife, or most anyone else, does something that's, let's just say not really great, it almost never gets stuck in my memory. My memory isn't a tape that I can just rewind and look at. More like a collection of photographs, badly organized, many misplaced. That is actually an upside, though I couldn't possibly claim any credit or intentionality about that. :-)
The quote is definitely not stupid, but I feel ambivalently about it, because none of us gets it right all the time, and when we foul up we do need to try again. I'm trying to think about that as a "both/and" rather than a black and white/either-or thing.
Thanks again for your very thoughtful post!
The bright side ...
Submitted by tfarmer on
Your point is spot on. That is one of the gifts I had in mind earlier.
The quote ...
I thought about the different ways that could be interpreted before posting. Your point is well taken.
Everyone will make mistakes and fail in specific situations, and must try again. That is given.
My intent was for that to apply to the big picture. Both must agree to accept the shared reality and responsibilities and work required on both sides to achieve the desired outcome ... at the start. If we don't, it becomes too easy to "Do Not".
Re: Those other posts you mentioned. It is clear many people on here are dealing with much more than just ADHD.
The quote - yes, I like that.
Submitted by JohnN on
The quote - yes, I like that. Big picture/partners in the project of life - definitely Do or Do Not. When I think of it that way, rather than down at the granular, blow-by-blow level, it actually has a lot of beauty.
Or it doesn't, because the other side of Do is Do Not, which is denial and defensiveness and distancing and blaming and all that, just a perfect storm of hurt. But I'm only repeating you now. It makes sense...
Just to let you know...
Submitted by tfarmer on
My wife and I discussed this thread last night. Particularly, your thoughts on memory / reality / identity, and how I had been consistently misreading that and not recognizing her struggle. Not surprisingly, she was in complete agreement with you.
We also discussed what that looked like in early childhood for her. She has little to no memory of her life prior to 5 or 6 years old.
As I said before, I am not a counselor, that may be normal. I don't know, but will certainly dig into it.
What I can say, is that is not true for me. I have vivid memories that I can recall and "play" like movie scenes, even specific conversations that occurred well before kindergarten. A while back I was describing a Rambler station wagon, that my grandfather once owned, to my uncle ( we are both car guys ... and this dates me if nothing else does! ). I described the interior in detail, the push button transmission, dashboard, colors, etc. ... and even the smell from the outgassing of the interior vinyl. After a little more discussion we determined my grandfather sold that car when I was about 3 yrs. old. My uncle jokingly replied, "You need to talk to somebody". :)
Maybe there is more to what he said ... I am questioning myself now ... perhaps I am also removed some distance from the "median" just the opposite direction than my wife. If that is the case, that memory iissue becomes even more amplifiied.
More work to be done.
If you are comfortable with it, I would be interested in your thoughts and experiences with regard to these early memories. No pressure.
Thanks!
Totally comfortable, and
Submitted by JohnN on
Totally comfortable, and thanks yet again for a super-helpful exchange here.
Your comments here and earlier have made me reevaluate my memories. I was going to write that they're relatively few and far between, but I was discussing this with my ADD counselor last week and he said they're all there, it's just that your access is problematic. Probably true but the result is the same.
I would say, on reflection, that my early memories are all snapshots rather than movies. And they are, as you suggested earlier, fairly disorganized mentally.
I have a bright-line reference to a certain extent, because we moved in early 1964, when I was five years old. Anything at the old house is before then. Of the four snapshots I have from that period, the only one I can absolutely put a date on is a still-vivid visual of the afternoon Hartford paper spread on the dining room table, with a huge picture and a huge, bold, two-line headline: Kennedy Shot. I found the paper when we cleaned out my father's house. But I was almost five that November, more or less on your wife's mark.
But as I think I've said, access to memories only a few days old or - and I know this absolutely from days of testing last summer - even a few minutes old is extremely problematic for me. One thing I *do* remember (but it's because I can *see* it on the page, not because I heard it) is that many parts of my auditory memory are significantly below average. I didn't ask whether there are lower points on the scale because that seemed pretty bad. :-(
Thanks!
Submitted by tfarmer on
It has been an absolute pleasure and beneficial experience for me as well. I appreciate your candor and willingness to share your experiences. Incidentally, my wife identifies herself as a "visual learner". It sounds very similar to what you described.
Enjoy the first "post lockdown" weekend!
Yes..super good thread
Submitted by Kateri on
I have gotten a lot out of so many things here! This is a great thread. "C", John and others all have good points! I am a non-ADHD spouse who is having a very hard time right now! Thanks for all your words!.
So would we all.
Submitted by Will It Get Better on
'I'd love to read something from someone who's had a success story with their partner/marriage...' So would we all. I'll take it as a positive to hear of an ADHD partner who reliably takes medication and continually works with their therapists. That's about as positive a mention as I've seen in my years on this site. Good for you.
Yes, there are happy ADHD-impacted relationships
Submitted by MelissaOrlov on
Hi, John - yes, there are happy ADHD-impacted relationships, my own being one of them. (And, yes, if you've read my books you know it took some time and effort to get there!) If you want to hear from the other group - those who are feeling pretty good about their relationships, go to the comments at the bottom of my couples seminar page.
To your point, people post in the forum because they are frustrated and because they don't feel others they know personally 'get' their situation. But the internet self-selects for the negative and the extreme. As you say, folks who are happily living their lives are generally not out seeking assistance or information of this sort.
The forum is a wake up call - filled with misery, resentment and problems. My blog, if you read there, is much more about what is going on between you, how to make a difference, and what can be changed vs. what's not likely to be changed. So you may want to head in that direction. Though, of course, we really welcome your voice in the conversation on the forum if you wish to add it.
If you have specific questions or want to chat, I am doing free virtual office hours to help support people during the COVID pandemic period. These should continue through the summer of '20 at least once a week. I would be happy to chat, provide you with resources, answer questions, etc.
Thanks for writing!
Thank you, Melissa! And
Submitted by JohnN on
Thank you, Melissa! And thank you for your books, and your blog posts. I have read/do read them. And thank you even more for your very brave honesty - you probably don't hear often enough that it really makes a difference.
And I do understand that about internet fora. It really doesn't matter whether it's a toaster or an insurance company or a spouse, they are very self-selective and typically reflect pain, frustration and anger.
I saw the note about virtual office hours and might check in. Hearing others' perspectives, and especially the emotional impact of the things I was stuck in for so many years, really brings things to life in a way that is highly motivating.
This may have been sort of the wrong forum, but I have to say I have gotten so, so much out of this thread. I'm extremely grateful for the discussion and am going to figure out a way to print this out so I can come back to it in a way that's a little easier visually for me. :-)
Thanks for your work and for hosting this site.
Pain but Help, Too
Submitted by MelissaOrlov on
I find that even though folks are expressing their pain and disappointment, there are also a lot of people here who really want to talk about these difficult issues, and also want to help and support. So I'm glad that you have had a good experience 'talking' with them.
I Second That...
Submitted by NewlyMarriedtoADHD on
I came to this forum hoping I would find some hope and some tools to support my ADHD husband. But after reading some of the posts, I'm only horrified, absolutely horrified of the torment it seems ADD marriages and ADD spouses go through. I pray to God that there is hope for these marriages.
I haven't met one
Submitted by Sabine on
I haven't met one. In my own life I've had some health issues and have had to rely commit to being well and taking ownership of the impact my physical li.its have on others. Its something that I have to own and manage every day... and protect my lived ones from the fallout by being hyper responsible for myself. I think anyone with a disability has to apply themselves more to offset the impact.... but this seems to be hard for adhd folks. Maybe something can help facilitate that but I've yet to find it. Honestly it's just super disappointing to try to connect to a person that can't pay attention and doesn't understand. I think a happy marriage requires real connection and real empathy from both partners. Trust is eroded by adhd, that erodes connection, and that in turn erodes happiness.