I have been here on this forum a while. A little over three years.
What sparked my brain spinning this morning was a note my spouse put on the cupboard door for me. "Can I have the bathroom at 10 am?" Seems a fairly innocuous request, doesn't it.? Here is why it is making me crazy-frustratingly scream. The routine - for a long time - at our house on Sunday morning is this: 10 am the bathroom is Mom's. We leave for church at 10:45. Today, my spouse is outside working on some project. So my brain is now spinning with all the probabilities- Do I say "No, you know 10 am is my routine time for the bathroom on Sunday." Do I remind him, "10 am is my routine time for the bathroom on Sunday." Why do I have to go crazy, walking on eggshells, knowing this will blow sky-high unless I just sigh, and go use the bathroom now and let him have it at 10 am. Who in the sam hill else on God's green earth has to loose their sanity over such a thing?
It feels like, in order to have peace and harmony, he dictates, and I must follow. From everything to using the bathroom, to buying a house, to spending money.
Yep. This is where this 54 year old woman is on a Sunday morning - nutsville.
For over 15 years, I had greatly suspected my husband had ADHD. 15 years ago was about about the time we had discovered our son's diagnosis with ADHD. Our son will be 25 in a few days, and his diagnosis was in 4th grade.
I got so inspired by what I found here, I asked my spouse to take the couples seminar. He went to the Cleveland clinic for a full diagnostic screening. The severity of his ADHD is 9+ on a 1-10 scale.
I am no longer inspired. I kept thinking I am missing something. I kept thinking if I got supportive, and did my part, and learned to back away from Symptom-Response-Response cycles, and a variety of other behavior changes, my marriage could improve.
What I am starting to think deep in my soul is that it is fact ME who is in denial. It is in fact ME who has to accept that this is it, take it or leave it.
While I get so very frustrated at not receiving what I need to make this marriage a relationship, I in all actuality cannot watch my spouse hurt so very much. To me it seems he just wont listen. To me it seems he is in total denial that he could ever make a mistake. To me it seems he refuses to say, "I am so sorry." But I think he really, honestly believes (with every inch of his being) that he is correct. He is being condemned. He is being treated poorly. He is being punished. He is right. He knows the best way.
How many of you have tried various different kinds of therapies? Have they worked? Was there any changes? What percentage of marriages that are this deep into the mucky-muck EVER get turned around so that BOTH side are at peace with each other?
I have experienced a phenomena for many years in counseling. I call it "The poor spouse cycle." I try to address an issue that is very important to me, or a hurt that has been experienced by me due to one of the negative ADHD behaviors affecting my spouse. And it never gets really addressed to my satisfaction. Yes, I believe there are 2 sides to every story. But, when each behavior, is excused away and explained away, and turned around into "How can you be so unfair to me? How can you judge me so harshly? Look what I did for you yesterday, or last week, or last year." , and then my spouse ends up in a crying sobbing heap . . . . that is just already beyond my comprehension.
Yep, I really think I am losing my mind. We seem to get no where, and I am already feeling massively guilty. And then when he says something like, "I have NO ONE I can share all this with, because no one knows what YOU do to ME, and I do not know how to let anyone in YOUR family know what I have to put up being married to you."
It has been suggested to me that I want something from him he either cannot or will not give.
And that puts me right back to where I came from in the first place.
I'm So Exhausted, read and re-read
Submitted by dedelight4 on
Dear I'mSoExhausted, I read and re-read your post. It really touched my heart, because I'm in the exact place where you are. My very ADHD husband and I are both 57 and we are at a stalemate in our relationship as well. He will NOT talk about ADHD, or anything having to do with our relationship and I feel the weight of having to do everything in order for it to work. He recently said "Maybe it would have been better off if I had just never got married and just lived by myself, because I didn't think I would ever do well with anybody". And of course, I wanted to say, "Well, why didn't you ever let us discuss this, and maybe we could work this out?", but I didn't, because I've said it so many times before. He just will NOT allow himself to be the tinniest bit vulnerable and let his guard down enough to where we can discuss this rationally. Maybe he CAN'T? I don't know. I can't that answer either.
The crazy thing is.....he discusses this with OTHER PEOPLE..........but never, never EVER with me. (The person who he SHOULD discuss it with, and the ONLY person who can help him CHANGE things, well..besides a professional) And, I'm screaming in my head.....WHY....WHY...WHY...WHY....WHY?????? But, when he tells other people about us, he makes himself out to be this long suffering husband whose wife TOTALLY does not understand him. The thing is I DO UNDERSTAND.....HE HAS SEVERE ADHD.......AND HE WILL NOT DISCUSS THE ADHD WITH ME. I have never put him down, or called him names....NEVER, EVER.....I don't yell at him, or criticize what he does, and STILL YET, he will NOT talk to me. I am at a total loss here.
I go back and forth from feeling like a victim to feeling like a fool. What if I ONLY focus on me? Forget him totally? At this point, like your "name" I AM SO EXHAUSTED.......and I am......SO EXHAUSTED. I can't just "let go" all the comments that sting and hurt other people, especially our daughters, even if I "let them go" when he does it to me. I am exhausted that everything has to be HIS WAY, from what we spend our money on, to what movie we watch, where we go to dinner, the way the lawn is mowed. It doesn't matter, it's HIS way. There is hardly any "giving" on his part.
He also recently told me he "hadn't felt loved in a long time". This is a man who had a 3 year affair six years ago, and expected me to "get over it" and then was hurt because he said I never forgave him for it. I was SHOCKED when he told me that, because he never ASKED my forgiveness, and he never even said he was SORRY. But, he THOUGHT he did those things. IT JUST BLOWS MY MIND. He has NO CLUE how devastated and how hurt I was during that time, how many years I HAVE NOT FELT LOVED FROM HIM, and how much I've done PERIOD. Will he EVER know? At this rate, NO, because once again, he won't talk about his ADHD.
I asked him 3 weeks ago about his ADHD, and he said, "I know that I have ADHD, and I did things years ago that I would do differently, but I've changed those things now, so that's not a problem any more." Once again, DENIAL. You don't get OVER having ADHD. You don't just choose to STOP the behaviors and then one day they are OVER with. It doesn't work that way. He knows he hasn't learned much about ADHD, but he's not that INTERESTED in learning any more.
So, where does that put you and me? the wives? I don't know. I feel too old and I am physically disabled now, which adds to the problem of being on my own. I don't get the emotional or physical love I got from him when we were dating/first married, and yet he thinks that I'm the one who changed. Yes, I've changed, but it took years for me to get to this place. I've given myself out. When is it THEIR turn? Or is once again OUR problem to solve this?
How does this happen. . . . .
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
dedelight4,
Today. Sunday morning. At church. A couple we know comes over to us. We are chattering, the four of us, about small stuff. Our friend had been at our son's house yesterday, and he was sharing his thought on our son's plans for renovations. The house is in a very cute location, sitting on almost 3 acres, on a corner of a paved road and a dirt road, out in rural farmland.
I say something along the lines of how it would be cool to buy it when my son is finished with it in 2 years, and turn it into a retreat house, for church groups or scrapbooking weekends. It was just a random thought. A passing idea that came to me. A participating comment in the conversation.
My husbands takes on a Groucho Marx posturing, leans over to our friends and says in a theatrically hushed tone out of the corner of his mouth, "I'm going to have to come up with some big bombshell of a plan, and then drop it on HER in public and see how she reacts."
Ouch, that stung a tad, and I felt embarrassed.
BUT, he is deeply offended and wounded because I was planning things behind his back, leaving him out, not including him. This is what ADHD does in his brain. It turns and twists and uglifies things, and then a defensive wall comes up that no one can penetrate, so it will grow into a huge monster.
I SO SO SO badly want to call our friends, and just ask them to to retell what they remember hearing, and how each of us said what we said, . . but based on current past issues, dragging a witness into the disagreement will prove fruitful, as of course he will perceive it as gathering the troops against him.
For exhausted and dedelight...it's about denial
Submitted by MelissaOrlov on
You both describe the same situation - a partner who is unwilling to take a hard look at his ADHD issues. "Taking a look" does NOT mean saying "I have ADHD" or just taking meds. It means understanding how important the ADHD is in your interactions and then working hard to bring the two of you closer together. Typically this means a full court press on ADHD treatment plus behavioral training and work to improve reliability plus interactive work with the partner to warm up the relationship.
This is not what I'm hearing either of you describe.
You cannot wish your partnership to be stronger - you must have full participation from your partner to make it work. That doesn't absolve you from responsibility - it's highly likely that you also contribute to the issues you are having - but BOTH partners must participate. If one remains in denial then things do not get better by definition. It's not ADHD that causes divorce - most ADHD can be managed well - it's denial.
If your partners remain in denial, then at some point, as hard as it is, you will have to assess what you really have right now and whether or not that's good enough for you. Many couples do make it...but some do not.
Amen
Submitted by kellyj on
ditto
exhausted & dede
Submitted by c ur self on
In reading yawls posts, I sense you both are tired in spirit, you have dealt w/this behavior a long time, I'm sorry...I would like to suggest something that is harder for some of us than others...Down play (ignore if possible) their actions, words that are not nice, and constructive...Sure they are your spouses, but everything they say and do belongs to them...Do not take it on, please do not feel you have to respond...Do not focus on add/adhd, its not fair to you are them...I know this sounds to easy, but it works...the bathroom note...yes or no, and nothing else, Stop trying to process why the note was there...Any emotions you had more than yes or no are yours not his...The comment he made at church about your thoughts about the house...Do and think nothing, you didn't say it, you don't own it and you definitely do not have to have a response to it...people see through those insecurities...Simplify your lives...Jesus loves us all...I pray you both experience an abundance of Grace and Peace :)
I will consider what you have said
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
c ur self,
I will mull over what you have said. I must admit, some of those thoughts pop up some red flags. I WILL percolate on your thoughts. The thing that gets in the way is MARRIAGE. This is not about some annoying man down the street. Maybe I am too tired to comprehend your views. What I am hearing you tell me is to ignore all the annoying behaviors. Why would I want to choose to live with annoying behaviors? I wanted to cultivate a relationship - a give and take - be with someone who would take responsibility for their own actions. Apologize. Make amends when necessary. LEARN conflict resolution.
Yes, for sure I am here because my emotions are valuable, and they are tied up in craziness. It does NOT sound too easy - it sounds impossible to pretend everything is fine and ignore the frustration. A sibling, a friend, a cousin, a parent - those people you can limit and constrain your time spent around them.
A spouse is much more.
Do and think nothing?
I will look at this again in the AM.
Give and Give and Give
Submitted by jennalemon on
Men and women (in general) are different in needs. If a man is married to ADD/ADHD woman, and is still getting sex, lots of other things can be overlooked. Men still are able to make more money than women...when a woman is expected to be the finance person - it is a bigger challenge for her. Men are not expected to keep a home and raise the children like the women are. So if a man's house is messy and the children are raised permssively, it is not thought of as a man's responsibility but a woman's. When a woman is expected to run the home, the children, the finances, the job of earning a living while the husband is messy and not making a living.....let's face it. Him asking for sex from her is just one more job for her and is insulting and demeaning. When a man is "keeping" a woman by earning the money and forgiving her for her messiness and disorganization, yes, she will likely be more happy to want to have sex. When a man doesn't take his responsibilities of manhood, husbandhood and fatherhood seriously, it will probably affect the bedroom. c ur self, when you are advising the women (which most of us are) to forgive and love, it has been occurring to me that your sex life is probably pretty good....you are giving her what she needs and she is giving you what you need. Most often it is the man who wants sex and cuddling from us after we have tried to forgive, love and tolerate him in so many ways while not "keeping" us or even seeming to care about us. At some point we become outraged by the audacity and grieve the loss of what we need in love and sex and marriage.
Then add to that that we are not respected or appreciated for forgiving and loving and it is termed as enabling....now we are criticized for being TOO loving and forgiving. c ur self, I am just asking you to see it from a woman's point of view as to why we are so angry and need to vent so we don't go crazy. We want to be sexual beings, and we self criticize ourselves for not wanting to be laid vulnerable by the men who promised to love us but seem to not even see or hear us.
Great post, Jennalemon.
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
Great post, Jennalemon.
It's definitely harder for women...
Submitted by c ur self on
You have a faulty view of men:-) Let me try to answer your post, it is a good one. First let me say how impressed I am with the way you girls stick out your marriages. I know most of you if not all would love for your husbands to be responsible leaders and providers who put a high priority on your needs, and have the ability to communicate like you need...The reason I promote love and forgiveness, is it is truly the only thing that I have seen work. It has saved me from a life of bitterness and expectations...Also you are wrong about men and sex...real men have hearts and emotions. He does not want to screw his wife, he want to take time and make love to his wife. If I come home, fighting her mess, cook, clean, do laundry, feed the dogs and cats, yards etc...How do you think I feel?...that's right just like you. Our sex life has been good at times, and terrible at times...She is very controlling, so if she can't control me, there is something she can control, but I don't have to answer for that. We have gotten past those kind of actions since we got back together in January... But, she is dealing w/ post menopausal atrophy and she says sex feels like a hot poker, very painful, so it isn't happening...And because of her add...like most things, she puts off treatment...I just realized I had two choices....Ask God to help me live w/my wife, or leave...I refuse to focus and bemoan what I can't do anything about...If loving her is not enough, then it will be what it will be, I've already found out trying to change her sure want help...
A new day, but not so new perspective
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
c ur self,
The rub in some of the ideas you shared is this: I was desperate for guidance from my church, and they cannot seem to help me.
I grew up and got married in the Catholic Church. I attended a Methodist Church for close to 20 years. The past 5 years I have been searching for a church to call home.
I live my life by the teachings of Jesus Christ. Each life instruction I learn, I take and sift it through the scriptures to make sure what someone - including preachers - tell me is written in the Bible, is REALLY there. Many a man and woman can share their interpretation of what is there. Some twist it, some take things out of context.
I received marriage counseling from a pastor who was hiding the fact he was in a terrible marriage.
I received marriage counseling from a priest who was molesting teen-age boys in our church.
I was denied counseling by a pastor who would not listen to me, unless he was able to hear my spouses side.
I was instructed to make sure I was doing my wifely duties by providing my spouse with the sex HE needed.
I was instructed to read a book "Me Obey Him?" so I could become a proper wife.
Building up a tough exterior to ignore my spouse's poor behaviors just is not the sort of advice that is helpful. I have gathered enough information to know it is possible for my spouse to turn his life around, if he could get past the denial. Right now, his insecurities affect his pride in a manner that makes him act rude and at times close to obnoxious.
If a woman lived with a drug addict or an alcoholic, or had a spouse who was addicted to online porn, would the best advice for her be to ignore the drug abuse and drinking and computer? Somehow, I do not think so.
I may be missing your point. I do not want to know how to live in this atmosphere. I want to know how we both can find peace. I cannot comprehend how ignoring the elephant in the room will help.
While it may be comforting to understand we are equally maladjusted, it is not comforting to be the only one in the relationship who understands that.
Good response
Submitted by MelissaOrlov on
Addressing the issues that ADHD encourages in a relationship is not about covering them over or ignoring them. It is about smart negotiation to get to a place where you can accept your own and your partner's limitations without living a life you don't want to be living. For the bathroom example above, the reason the 10am request was so resented was that there were lots of other things going on emotionally. If your relationship was warm and happy, do you really think there would even be a conversation about a request to use a bathroom, one time, at an inconvenient time? Doubtful.
If you think of comments and interactions as either "sticky like velcro" (i.e. they hit you and stay with you) or "flowing past you as if you were teflon" (i.e. they don't stay with you - you let them go) then there are some interactions that should be velcro and some that should be teflon. Those that you might have the grace to let go by might include an occasional lapse, smaller incidents that don't impact the core of your relationship, frustration taken out on an inanimate object, etc. The things that should be sticky are multiple events that are indication of a bad pattern developing (let the first ones go by you, but if they keep going, take note); things that hit at the heart of your relationship such as disrespectful behavior or not paying any attention to you., etc.
In general, though, putting up with bad behavior isn't very useful - it just makes the person doing the putting up with miserable and resentful. So, the better approach for the couple is for the person with the bad behavior to take responsibility for it.
That said - in the case of the request for the bathroom - given he's out doing work for the family, an argument can be made that this is GOOD behavior, perhaps done at an inconvenient time.
The ugly truth surrounding a good response
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
Yep. Truly sad that a note asking for the bathroom touches the wrong nerve in me. Tells me I am over wrought and frazzled. Tells me I need a vacation from such intense frustration.
One of the very first reasons I began trying to understand our marriage better is that I feel I am lost. My hopes, My dreams. My opinions. My needs. My gifts. What I can add to our relationship. I FEEL bulldozed over. I FEEL unimportant. I FEEL ignored. I FEEL I am invisible.
"Can we change up the bathroom times today?" , while may sound idealistic, it would have at least felt he was being considerate, rather that dictating.
Since we do not have any time routines, and I feel the need to constantly protect any routine that I have for myself by repeating a mantra of - "Don't forget it is my turn to be in the bathroom at 10 o'clock", it sure felt like an inconsiderate request. That's all my stuff. It touched the "Will he EVER get with the program?" or will I just always have to skirt around his time blindness. LOL, I guess that touches off the SRR cycle, as he would most likely respond, "See, I can NEVER be good enough for you. You expect too much."
Oiy. Oiy. Oiy.
Blessings
Submitted by jennalemon on
I am also a life long time church goer. My minister told me, "God did not create us to sit and be miserable our entire lives. You may have peace and do what you need to do to live your best life if you have tried everything in your power to the best of your ability. If you are miserable, make the changes you need to. Marriage was given to the people FOR the lives of families, not to imprison them.
Why would I want to choose to live with annoying behaviors?
Submitted by c ur self on
Exhausted can you do anything about it? All I have to offer you is what Jesus has done and is continuing to do in my own life...Melissa wrote a great book, of which I am an advocate...I so wish I had had it several years ago...It is awesome in-site into the hells I've endured, and inflicted on my wife because of the effects of add/adhd behaviors and my ignorance and response to them. But, it could not do anything to heal me, or help me to live peacefully everyday...Not just when my wife isn't having add moments, and behaviors, that's daily, and my stuff surfaces daily... It's not about church, did that most of my life faithfully, it's not about good counseling, did that with a wise Christian counselor for 10 months...it's not about good marriage books, I read several...It was and is about Dying! I feel like the holy spirit lead me to these two verses, and they would not and have not left me...(For whosoever desires to save his life shall lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it...Matthew 16:25... For we who live are always delivered to death for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus may be manifested in our mortal flesh. II Corinthians 4:11) I was a wreck, I could not believe what was happening to my life, I was the good one right? lol...the one who had a "normal" life and wife for 30 years until Jesus took her home. Who I can count on one hand our arguments (well maybe both hands)...But, here I was God's child, and I was angry, bitter, and wondering how can anyone live like this, it's not what a marriage is suppose to be!!!! Please help!!! So God had to blind me to my wife, and open my eyes to oh c ur self...And it wasn't pretty...I did not have Jesus on the throne room of my heart...It was me setting there...Jesus wasn't the center of my Universe, I was...So I had to die... and of course as you know it's daily! My wife had no chance against my expectations of a "normal life"...I had all the good intentions, but i was blindly refusing to deal with what was in front of me. This women I married and was suppose to give my life for...I was so discouraged and angry, i felt so unloved, I felt unappreciated and taken advantage of... But, I was so blind, I had it all figured out, but SHE just couldn't get it!...So, Jesus is saving me, and teaching me my purpose, to be a vessel...His love never fails, and I must abide in it...So, this is why I sent you the first post...I am sorry it was so confusing...Of course we can't ignore behaviors that directly impact us, but, I can through the spirit refuse to allow myself to head down those same old roads, that has only produced pain and suffering in my marriage, because I was trying to save my own life, and make her see something only the holy spirit can give birth too. I had forgotten, If I have ever really known how to just live a life of thankfulness...I am learning how to love, because of Jesus...and it's not about me, it's about him...:-)
A wide swipe of a fix-it brush is not effective in my situation
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
c ur self,
I guess maybe you'd have to read my previous posts to get a handle on the whole picture. My spouse does not have to do anything. As I read, it feels as you are assuming a lot about me and my marriage.
One thing I am guilty of is loving too much. Hoping too much. Holding on too long. Trying too many options. Overlooking too much. Swaying too much. Giving in too much. And ultimately trying to be such a good Christian, I continued to be more and more selfless till I turned myself inside out and became a carpet.
Jesus went before me - FOR ME! Yep. Took my sins. Died for my sins. Rose again so I can have everlasting life.
I am not a wreck. I am human with many shortcomings. God points them out to ME when He decides it is time to change me.
So clearly the answer for ME, is to decide how much I can take, how much I can forgive, how much I am willing to feel I am being treated poorly, and finally , "Am I in a marriage that can be joyful and lead to life-enriching, fulfilling, daily living, or has the deterioration that we BOTH added to our marriage consumed it beyond repair?"
A marriage should not be one side giving and giving and giving until he or she is worn so thin they feel defeated with the weight of the whole responsibility of the marriage upon their shoulders. That is why I write on this forum. To help me unravel my erroneous behavior. And to help me find peace in the place of "I really believe I did all I could do to make a marriage."
No one can make decisions for me. I seek out counsel to show me options and ideas I did not think of, or could not find on my own.
The problem for ME is not how to get that man out of the denial so we can work on our marriage. The problem for me is how to get a clear picture of when enough is enough for ME. I sure don't want to toss out the baby with the bath water.
I've read your posts...and my
Submitted by c ur self on
I've read your posts...and my post is about my life...not yours, I assume nothing about you, I would never advocate a person stay in an abusive situation or in a marriage where it was going on...You sound a lot like me from your description...I wish only the very best for you!
Duty, Sex and Jesus
Submitted by kellyj on
I have some things to add to this topic and I want to tread lightly in respect to others personal spiritual beliefs in doing so. For the record......I was raised in a very religious Christian environment At one point in time I rejected religion in it's entirety until I realized that it was the personal biases and opinions stemming from my own families delusional version as well as some church leaders that I was really rejecting. For the sake of argument.....I'm not giving myself any "labels" at this time and i am maintaining a very broad all encompassing religious view point with a strong Christian foundation at it's core.
Jesus died for our sins and became a martyr in doing so. The important point that seems to get missed in all of this is that he did this....SO WE DON'T HAVE TO. Being a martyr is the pinnacle of being the ultimate victim.
Duty and servitude to God does not mean you have to be this way to your spouse. Duty is a requirement which has nothing to do with Love.
Love me, stay married to me for life because you have to....and have sex with me because it's your duty??? Really? Who would ever choose that?
There are a few misconceptions that I want to make in some of the comments that I've read in this post....again, these are only my personal opinions.
Raising children requires a commitment to be responsible for them. It's our duty to them to provide them with the things they cannot get for themselves.
Men and women are not that much different when it comes to the need for sex itself in (almost) all biological levels. Gender roles, social constructs and imposed beliefs and perceptions of duties shame, guilt and sin within them is where the biggest differences come from.
Transactional sex does not necessary mean you are a prostitute and requiring a direct exchange for money.
Women get horny just like men sometimes
Sometimes men only want to have sex because they are horny and sometimes they want sex out of love for that person and because they have the need for intimacy. This is also true for women.
Speaking open and honestly about my own need for sex has brought me to realize that sometimes my ADHD impulses pull me that direction as a stress and anxiety release. This is 100% self serving the same as simply being horny. Masturbation would serve the same purpose at times as a close substitute.
As long as both sides are in agreement to it.....it really does not matter what the motivation is.
Coerciveness and manipulation start going back to transactional sex and duty. Unless there is something about this that both people enjoy then it takes away from the enjoyment and satisfaction for either one or both people.
Finally........men do not always want to have sex just because we are horny. I do not enjoy having sex with someone who is angry with me or just doing it because they have to. Paying someone would be better only in that at least it would be their choice and they would do it willingly. (think about that one on a conceptual level???) I also do not want to have sex with someone who I am angry with and will go without no matter how horny I am. I can take care of that if I have to on my own even though I would prefer to actually have real sex......just not under those circumstances.
Well said
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
As long as both sides are in agreement to it.....it really does not matter what the motivation is.
Yes! That is it. Both sides. In agreement. It is a heartfelt joy to 'share' sex, or even share more often that I am interested, IF I have something coming back.
I KNOW I picked up too much responsibility in our relationship and turned it into a parent/child dynamic. I am working hard on my end to change that.
That dynamic is what I feel is askew in my marriage.
I have done it. . . .bought the tapes, found the books, researched marriage dynamics, sought out counselors, tried, tried, tried.
I followed after my spouse like a little lost puppy. I got that emotional word picture from another forum member :)
I have no sort of abusive situation. No physical - never, not acceptable. No verbal - never. Character assassination was not permitted on our 10 acres. No name calling, no saying anything derogatory. Not even by our children's friends. Not while playing video games, never. 20 odd years later, several of my children's friends have shared how much that meant and still means to them.
By this time, after 3 years of focusing on turning my behavior around, in yet another direction, and YES indeed trying to find someone who can help my spouse really see his denial, I am weary. His acting gruff, yelling loudly, diverting to other issues, giving the cold shoulder, being unable to co-operate unless he is in charge, not being able to accept his limitations as a human being, letting go of perfection. . . . . . that gets to be hard to live with. And starts to feel a bit, I do not know what to call it. Abusive sounds to harsh. . . . . . . .
I will reiterate, I am not perfect. I have my days. I am always willing to learn and improve.
I just am no longer willing to carry the whole marital load on my shoulders.
The weariness I feel living with a man who is angry is taking its toll on ME. I KNOW I may cause him some frustration, but I am NOT the source of ALL his anger and sadness.
This situation permeates into my every waking minute. Enough I say.
I appreciate your posts....
Submitted by c ur self on
What I share isn't a way of lecturing or condemning its just the place I know peace comes from and we are encouraged in scripture to strengthen one another w/the words of Jesus, its my way to love others...I also live in the same situation daily that most of the people on here do...We all need hope and encouragement...I have made so many mistakes in trying to reason in my mind the whys, I've expended much wasted energy, many sleepless nights, and endured much stress and frustration, I've asked my self time and again "what can I do? I've been the enabler, the door mat...etc...One thing that has cleared up for me is that I was going at it all wrong in thinking I could use this mind, to get to a better place...But, Romans 8:6,&7 shined some light on this for me, It exposed my misguided confidence in my own thinking.
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
So, the question remained for me, "can I have peace in the midst of what can be a very stormy life at times?" When I final realized, Jesus didn't want to make my life better, but, he wanted to be my life...Peace came in...Has Add/adhd changed, No, but I have...So this is way, I share encouragement :)
We do not have to be a Martyr to experience peace, I just found out I was looking for it in the wrong place...
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. Romans 12:1
Denial and Delusion Only Creates Divisiness
Submitted by kellyj on
You can't win the war against these two in other people because that war is being waged inside their head. All you can be in this situation is an unwilling spectator. I feel for you....been there on both sides of the coin.
Wonderful posts
Submitted by dedelight4 on
Thank you to all who posted, and to you Melissa for also writing. I love what you said. I've been sick from a sinus infection from an infected broken tooth that had to be extracted, so I haven't been reading and posting. There are some insightful things being said which have made me really think.
My ADHD husband is very much like "ImSoexhausted's" husband as you've all read, and she and I are wondering what we should do next. I've been trying to think through all the ins and outs of this for a workable solution and there is no easy answer. Years ago, when I said yes to my husband's proposal, I thought I was getting a partner to share life and love with, but instead, I got an emotional "child". It still boggles my mind at times, when he admits to making certain decisions "just on a whim", or by quickly "responding" to something without thinking it through. (example)..... I recently asked him how he chose to run cross country in high school and the answer surprised me. He didn't read about cross country, or have a friend who was doing it, and it wasn't something he "thought" about doing. There was an announcement on the school PA, that the track coach was going to be in the school that day, so he just went and signed up. NO THOUGHT put into it at all. This type of "choosing" (I found out) has taken place many times throughout his life, which made me question his "choice" to marrying me. Did he actually put THOUGHT into it? Did he REALLY LOVE ME? or was getting married just an afterthought of a whim? I don't know. He's never said, which doesn't do much to reassure me either way.
My husband's way of having meaningful relationship experiences is very different from mine (so I've learned) After we got married it was...."OK, that's done, next thing on the list"....like he's checking things off a checklist, which includes doing activities with me. He will ask me to go out on the back porch in the evening, just to "sit together for a while because it's such a beautiful evening. He will talk about doing this for hours ahead of time, but then when the time comes after eating dinner and cleaning up, then retreating to the porch to sit on the lounge chairs, he sits there for about 5 to 10 minutes and says, "OK, that was great. Time to get back to work". He's fine and "rested", and I'm thinking "We just GOT HERE, why are you leaving?" It's hard for me to understand that for HIM sitting there for 5 minutes is equal to a 6 hour pleasure cruise, when I'm feeling like I haven't let the air out of my sails yet, and am NO WHERE CLOSE to being relaxed. I guess that's one more difference between the ADHD mindset and the non's.
Anyway, since we can not talk about our relationship or his ADHD, we can never get past a very surface level connection. I have been SO ANGRY at myself for letting myself fall in love with him, choosing this, and yet feeling somewhat conned, also not getting out earlier. One thing in my defense is I only found out about the ADHD a few years ago, where BEFORE, I didn't know WHAT I was dealing with. I even thought that I was going CRAZY for a while, but I was actively SEARCHING for an answer. In my search, I came across NPD, which fit our lives so well, it seemed like a plausible thing. ( NPD is somewhat associated with ADHD) But, a lot of what was happening to us was from undiagnosed, un-medicated and untreated ADHD, plus whatever left over baggage we each had that needed therapy to help resolve.
Years ago, I was trying to find out why my husband behaved in certain ways that were so CONTRARY to what seemed "normal" (yeah normal lol). He just got angry at me for "trying to make him look bad". I wasn't trying to make him look bad, I wanted us to CONNECT. I wanted and NEEDED him to look me in the eye, tell me he loved me and that he wanted to spend his life with me. AND/OR if he did something that hurt my feelings......I wanted him to tell me....."I'm sorry I hurt your feelings". I have done....and STILL say those things to him. It's HORRIBLE to feel a constant DISCONNECT from my husband, and then have him turn around and tell me that "He hasn't felt loved in a long time". DENIAL....DENIAL............DENIAL. You are right Melissa about the DENIAL. We can't move ANYWHERE in our relationship because of the DENIAL.
In all the years past, I worked too much, DID too much, TRIED too much, LOVED too much....only to screw myself in the end. I'm learning that I MUST choose differently now..... Honestly.......I don't want to make another mistake. What if I choose wrong again? I've been SO ANGRY AT MYSELF. I've been inwardly angry at him for what I perceived as his unwillingness to look at me as a woman who's genuinely loved him, cared about him, trusted him and believed in him. Since he won't tell me how he HONESTLY FEELS, I don't know what he WANTS for our life, what his hopes and dreams and desires are, (besides him saying he wants more money) and/or what he would like to see us accomplish as a couple.....We've NEVER....EVER had a conversation on what HE would like to see us accomplish together as a couple. His accomplishments are only about HIM, and what HE can do/not do. He has a PhD. has worked hard all his life, had quite a few major accomplishments (as far as academia and musical accomplishments go) and he's not satisfied with ANYTHING he has done in his life so far. I so wish that he could get joy out of our lives together instead of joy coming from some kind of "outside" source.
Anyway, again. A decision for me to leave now is almost impossible. I need my DH's insurance to get meds for a chronic pain condition. I didn't develop my own life, I let HIS life encompass our entire life. (again, I scream......but doesn't he have ANY fault in this for hurting someone else's life so much?) It all gets put back on me AGAIN. It's my decision to stay or leave, my hurt, my life that has to start all over AGAIN, which at 57 is somewhat harder. My mental anguish, my life's breakdown......and he still goes ON...and on..and on. in his indifference. I guess that's what it feels like the MOST......is INDIFFERENCE. I want him to say either he HATES me or he LOVES me. I can HANDLE one or the other...but ..... Not..."Well, if you want to go, that's up to you." what a horrible state to be in after so many years. Why did he ask me to marry him in the FIRST PLACE? He knows very well I never wanted to go through another divorce. I didn't want to put the girls through that again. I did what I really believed in my heart was right by marrying him, so why has it been SO HARD?
Such a heart felt post...
Submitted by c ur self on
Maybe you should read this to your husband...If my wife wrote this...I think all i would want to do is hold her all night...
dedelight4,
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
dedelight4,
The sadness I feel comes from my misinterpretation of life. My spouse is sensitive. My spouse is creative. My spouse overdoes almost everything in which he chooses to be involved.
When my great niece asked him to bring bubbles to her birthday party, he literally filled a hillside with millions of bubbles, from giant to tiny, using fans and screens and tons of misc. items he created. The children were enthralled!
When our daughter asked him to do the flowers for her wedding, he literally planted a huge flower garden and made the most beautiful wedding banquets and decorations.
I had once mentioned how nice it would be to someday have a walkway from our driveway to our pool. Our yard has the most amazing, winding sandstone path.
These are some of the positive aspects of ADHD wired brains.
These things do not a wholesome marriage make. The pile of all the paraphernalia from the bubbles sat in our back yard for a long time. All the stuff from the wedding flowers - including the stems and cuttings and extra flowers and buckets of water, and vases of water, and styrofoam and ribbons and wires - stayed in our RV (the mobile flower station) until they started to smell badly, and I had a choice of leaving it for him to clean up as he said he would, or get that stinking mess out of the RV. Ruining an RV by leaving that crap to rot was not a good solution. We all had out assignments for the wedding, so this was his responsibility. He kept saying, "I'll get it, I'll get it, I'll get it." He did not. If I brought it up, he insisting I was diminishing the joy of the flowers. Not so. they were amazing. The walkway is amazing - when I have a bitter soul already filled with lots of unfinished promises, its charm is hard to get to keep in focus.
The big picture of our marriage includes the good, the bad and the ugly. If we ignore the bad and the ugly, if we jump up and down in anger and insist all we look at is the good, the bad outweighs the whole thing.
misinterpretations of life?
Submitted by c ur self on
You nailed it with this statement for me exhausted....All the hells I've experienced in this life is because of the truth found in your statement...Following my mind, using my own intellect to decide how life should represent itself in my life and others...
Dear dedelight4
Submitted by kellyj on
I hear so much of the same things I have experienced in my past and present within the posts you've made here on this forum.
The big picture of our marriage includes the good, the bad and the ugly. If we ignore the bad and the ugly, if we jump up and down in anger and insist all we look at is the good, the bad outweighs the whole thing. The sadness I feel comes from my misinterpretation of life.
For me...waking up from my own denial after my 2nd divorce was like being one of the characters in the movie "The Matrix" after they ate the "blue pill" and found themselves in the real world......one where they lived in horrible dirty conditions (in the movie), eating gruel, living on top of each other without all the pleasures they had experienced in their "illusionary world" inside the Matrix.
When I did this I felt like I was seeing the world and my life in it for the first time but with that came the harsh reality that it wasn't the one I had created inside my head which was in many ways delusional.
Delusion (defined): A false conviction (strong belief)....contrary to invalidating evidence of fact.
I have this memorized as a reminder to myself not to be this way and stay open minded. The last thing I ever wanted myself was to get divorced again for the second time. I avoided it at all costs by living my life in denial, delusion and deprivation......seeking things in my marriage that would either validate or invalidate the "story" I was living inside my head as to what that should be.
These things do not a wholesome marriage make.
I recognized that a part of this for myself does include my ADHD symptoms....... but not all of it. The ADHD symptoms are only a metaphor for the part in your statement based on what I wanted my life and my marriage to look like ( including my ex and her own version) in contrast to reality and the difference between them....
my misinterpretations of life.
I think for many of the spouses who have ADHD and then finally get diagnosed or are in denial of it......this is the stark reality they face for the first time when they realize they are no longer inside "The Matrix".
I think for the spouses married to us who have ADHD and who are in denial of it........the same stark reality of their life hits them when their misinterpretation of their own personal story does not line up with what is really happening in reality.
So what do you do now once you make this realization??
For me it (IS) learning to see things in a new way that is based on some form of reality instead of delusion which includes all the people in my life as well. For me it is creating my own place in the world and not having someone else do it based on their delusions and denials.
It requires knowing what you really want for yourself and then doing something to make this happen.
I see so much of this in all the posts in this forum and know from my own experience that it is not exclusive in anyway to either having......or not having ADHD.
I really appreciate the feedback you have given me to some of the posts I've made. I look for feedback to tell me if I'm on the right track. I can relate with so many of the things you've said in yours as well as being around the same age which does have some things to do with al of this growing up in time that we did and all the changes in thinking that took place in some very dramatic ways. My friends and I have referred to us as......."The Transitional's" (very late baby boomers) instead of "Gen X" or the like.
Some books that have really helped through my own process in all of this and have a lot or relevance to the things that we are experiencing including the things being discussed in this post are:
"The Four Agreements", by Don Miquel Ruiz. And....."The Power of Now", by Eckhart Tolle
If you are into this kind of thing and haven't read these two...... I think they could be useful to you as they have been for me during my own process. ( I've read a lot of self help books too but these 2 really hit the mark.. .just say'in)
Take care.
new information to process
Submitted by dedelight4 on
Thank you jjamaieson for your well spoken comments. I ALWAYS love reading your posts, because they are so incredibly insightful.
I have some new information to post which is about autism. I feel a little foolish as to why I didn't look into this before, but I only considered "autism" to be the "rainman" type of person with extreme symptoms and a total inability to live as many others do. Anyway, I pulled up AUTISM and high-functioning autism on the web, and was amazed at what I read. My ADHD diagnosed husband actually fits more of the high-functioning AUTISM than he does the ADHD, even though he HAS ADHD, almost to an extreme.
I remember what my mother-in-law used to say about my husband during his childhood. Also, what she herself was like. (she was odd) She (MIL) could NOT carry on a two-way conversation, and a group conversation was even harder for her to be involved with. example: I would be in conversation with the relatives (at a family dinner) and we would talking about an intense topic, when she would add a comment that had NOTHING whatsoever to do with what we were talking about. She would NEVER, EVER look me or anyone else in the eye when talking to us. She was distant, emotionally cold and hated being hugged, had EXTREME anxiety, and worried about the strangest things that you or I wouldn't give a second thought to. Plus, she married in her late 30's which was almost unheard of in the 1950's. When she had children, she couldn't handle the stress and responsibility that came with child rearing. She also blamed the kids for "turning out bad", except the good boy who then became my husband. But SHE was the cause of why the children has so many problems and issues.
In regards to how she raised my husband: first she "praised" him for being such a "good boy".....but "good boy" meant that he didn't BOTHER her. He played by himself and didn't cling to her or need motherly affection/attention. DH would play by himself, alone, most of the time, and didn't have friends, except maybe only ONE friend. He played with toys like "tinker toys" and matchbox cars, but only by himself. MIL told me "He was such a good boy, because he didn't want my attention all the time". This was not a good thing. His mother also "favored" him above his two siblings. DH got straight A's in school, was way above average in intelligence and when tested, had a genius IQ. MIL also praised him for his school grades, that his siblings were quite jealous of because they didn't do as well, even though they themselves were way above average in intelligence.
MIL was also an angry person, I think because she knew she didn't quite "fit in", which she blamed on her husband's gambling.( I think my father in law gambled to get away from his wife) But, I can totally see the DENY, DISTRACT AND DEFLECT in action now, in my husband's core family. He grew UP learning how to deny, distract and deflect as well as most likely having an autistic brain. I also read about narcissistic injury, and how a mother NOT looking into her newborn baby's eyes causes a "disconnection" between mother and child. This happened with my MIL and all her children, as well as her and the grandchildren. I was an eyewitness to how she did NOT connect with her grandchildren which she "claimed" she adoringly loved. She would bounce her grandchildren on her knee but not "look" at them, would pat them on the back for a minute or two and then say "That's enough". Then pass the child back on to it's mother or someone else. (limited physical touch and connection)
My husband then in turn, grew up autistic, with ALL the symptoms I have been reading about. It's astounding. I don't want to declare myself an expert. I AM NOT. But, I can't help but put these things together which make so much sense. I also don't understand why my husband's psychiatrist didn't test him further for AUTISM, instead of ADHD alone. (DH saw a psychiatrist for about 2 years after his initial diagnosis)
I have more to learn on this, and how it impacts my life now. But, it is just an interesting turn in this entire journey.
What a Coinsidence
Submitted by kellyj on
My spouse and I went to counseling today and I recounted some of the things that I have learned from this forum. Focusing on you non-ADHD wives and the things that are said here has really widened my view which I said to him (my shrink). Without going into everything that we talked about....I came away with a couple of new things...one you might find interesting in relationship to something you just said.
First and the most obvious was putting more into practice the things I've been learning and less into learning. I knew he was going to say that as it has been his mantra for years.....but more of the reason's behind this also came to light which had not crossed my mind ( it's why I pay him the big bucks...so far it's working lol ) In many ways I sound like your husband as a child...but I was also very adventurous and had lots of friends in my neighborhood (very social) What's interesting is the whole attachment theory thing ( what you talked about with your husband mother not connecting with your husband as an infant..eye contact etc..) with me as my psychologist speculates is the exact opposite....that is......my mother smothering me as an infant to fill her need for attachment that she needed for any number of reasons ( I know what they are but this could fill a book).....the exact opposite of your husband experience. He said they have videos of mothers doing this thing with their infant babies with cameras on the child as they squirm and look away and finally go limp as if they the life is being sucked out of them. Wow.......no wonder I have such a defiant streak in me....which also helps explain why I always have to resist everything at first but will turn around and do things after the fact in my own time...( the control thing ) Resist first....do second. It's a pattern. I forgot to ask if this qualifies as being anal retentive? I wouldn't place myself in this category if my life depended on it but I could be wrong??????( or at least my understanding of it) I already know this is where my dependent issues come from but again....there are a lot of other issues than ADHD going on with us it appears.
You mentioned that I was not like your husband earlier and it seems that my extroversion and hyperactive components do sound different than his (inattentive type????) I'm now wondering if what we are talking about has anything to do with this and the differences that I just described? Interesting huh?
Do you think that your husband was misdiagnosed or are you just pointing out the similarities with Autism? I know that I saw this especially in the movie I commented on (Temple Grandin). I am really curious about the correlation but don't know that much about it other than they are in the same spectrum but at different ends. I know enough to sound like I know what I am talking about but really.....only enough to be dangerous. ha ha
Quickly...the other thing I learned today was in one of my strengths.....insatiable curiosity.....within it are some negative aspects ( shadow ) that hadn't considered.......something about a cat. lol
Anyway.....I thought I would pass this along...it's a free be. lol
JJ