So like many non-ADHD spouses on this forum, I struggle with acceptance. My counselor and I have been working on this a LOT--how to accept my ADHD DH for who he is-period. Not who I wish he would be-after all, he has been this way for the entire 20 years of our marriage, so why is it bothering me so much now? (side note--I think it's bothering me so much in the past two years because very little has changed about him and his capabilities and we have had some MAJOR life events happen in the past two years that we have not been able to handle very well and it really hit me how low-functioning he is--just my opinion). In any case, this acceptance thing--if I accept how little he is capable of and don't expect anything more, how does that work? We all have expectations of everybody--you email a friend to make plans, you expect a reply or you can't see them. Why would I ever email a friend if I had no expectation of them getting back to me? I would likely give up and we would no longer be friends. So in a marriage, how can you have no expectations of your person? I don't, and it sucks, and it's not sustainable, and I worry for what it's doing to me as a human. Some examples: my DH rarely if ever lets me know if he is running late from anywhere, so I have stopped even retaining what time he says he will be home. If I call to check on him, he may or may not answer his cell phone--he tells me he can't talk on it if it is plugged in, charging. I know full well this is a lie-he has the newest incarnation of the iPhone, paid for by his work. If my crappy Samsung is able to be in use while plugged in, I gotta believe the iPhone can do that. Once he was four hours late and told me there was an accident about 5 miles from our house, on a road I know. How can he think I could possibly believe that an accident on a road I know with tons of exits (Lake Shore Drive, for those of you familiar with Chicago) could hold him up for 4 hours???? So I no longer have the expectation that he will be home when he says, I no longer call to check on him when he is late and I no longer even ask why he was late. So that part of my own humanity is gone. In a normal marriage I would imagine you would want the other person to be worried about you, to care if you are late, but that is not the case in my marriage. Another example: on Saturday we were at oldest sons water polo tournement and there was two hours between his games, so I wanted to go get some lunch out, not sit in the hot pool stands for 2 hours. DH didn't want to go, so he sat there alone and I went to lunch alone. When I got back, he didn't ask where I had gone. So that part of "couple-ness" has dropped away-he would just as soon sit alone than be with me AND is not even interested in what I did in the interim. Another example: I don't talk about my work at home-he has told me on many occasions that all I do is complain about my job, so I now when he asks how my day was I just say fine and that is the extent of it. Really, there is a TON going on at my job. I was appointed Assistant Principal in March and we hired a new principal literally last week, so I have a lot to do in addition to full time junior high teaching, so it's a pretty exciting time for me, but I don't talk about any of that. It took me about a month to negotiate the Assistant Principal deal--salary, duties, etc., and I didn't say a word to him until several days after I had signed my new contract. I had other friends that helped talk me through stuff, there was nothing useful he would have contributed, so why bother? So that is another part of my humanity that has dropped away--the ability and desire to share a huge chunk of my life with my person. Another example: he travels Monday through Friday for work and I often don't know where he is--he may or may not put his locations on our family google calendar. Sometimes someone will ask where he is and I used to say I didn't know but people look at you funny when you don't know where your spouse is so now I just make up a place he does business-who would know that I am lying. And he may or may not call at night when he is gone, so I may not speak to him for several days while he is away. He claims the time change is why he doesn't call, but all his business is in areas that are only an hour difference. Another thing that has dropped away--even knowing where your person IS in the world. Another example: when I ask him more than one question about pretty much anything, he says I am interrogating him. So now I ask maybe one question and even if the answer is unclear, I leave it alone. Another thing drops away--being able to ask for information/have a give-and-take normal conversation. The alarm clock is on his side of the bed and if I have it set for something he will turn it off and not nudge me if I don't hear it. I cannot tell you how many things I have missed or been late to because he feels no responsibility to me if I don't hear the alarm. I have asked him why he doesn't nudge me and he says that's not his job. So now I set my phone alarm and put it under my pillow. Another thing drops away--no one has my back for even a small thing like getting to the hot yoga class I love on time. He got home Friday night and left again Monday afternoon and in that time LITERALLY didn't touch me once. I don't mean we didn't have sex, I mean he literally did not touch me. That has been happening more and more when he comes home-we just kind of dance around each other and I count the minutes until he leaves again BUT every time I ask how he thinks we are doing he says fine. So yet another part of marriage has dropped away-physical contact.
So my question is this: how much normal human stuff can I live without?? how much more can drop away and I will still be sane? I listen to friends talk about their husbands and I am blown away. My pastor (DH doesn't go to church with me very often) asked if DH was happy and I had no idea. How would I know that? I am so lonely I could break in half, but if I am accepting that this is all DH is capable of, then what? I would divorce him tomorrow if we could afford it, but who is to say that would be any better? I have an 8th grader and a sophomore who love their dad. And the worst thing is all the stuff I can do without. How would I ever be normal with another man again? Most people appreciate being worried about and asked questions of-most people don't see that as intrusive or interrogating, but I have learned to not worry and not ask. That's not very conducive to a happy relationship. I don't know what I would even call what we have now-it's very business like. Lonely. Empty. But maybe that is acceptance. Everything I listed has been discussed in therapy-DH has a reason for everything, nothing is his fault, there is always an explanation. He is doing the best he can. So how can I even be mad about that? He forgets, he's tired (when he goes t bed early he tells me he has to take care of himself first and if that hurts my feelings, too bad), he's an adult-he can do whatever he wants--these are all the things he tells me and the therapist. And strictly speaking, they are all true, just not all that helpful to a happy marriage.
thoughts?
dvance
questions...
Submitted by OccupyLove on
Hi dvance,
Not sure how you're getting by, really. All I can offer is support because your situation sounds like a very heavy burden. I'm curious about how your therapist has responded to all this. My situation is not good, either, and as my husband is is one who has outbursts, so perhaps worse, for whatever comparisons are worth. Anyhow, just wanted you to know that someone is out hear reading about your hurt. I hope that someone can come along after me and offer something more useful but at least you know you've been heard. It sounds very hard.
Occupy Love
I've read your posts, and you
Submitted by RitaMargarita on
I've read your posts, and you've said you're committed to staying in the marriage. For the time being, correct?
I think what your therapist is getting at, is that you need to change your perceptions of your H, and his capabilities. Your H has a real and legitimate disability, no matter how you choose to classify it - disorder, syndrome, disability, etc. I think you need to look at it like if he had lost a leg, you wouldn't be angry at him for not being able to dance, would you? No, you would likely feel compassion for him, knowing he wished he could dance with you.
It seems we're very forgiving of physical handicaps in our society...not so much with mental. Now, I GET how hard 20 years of your H's shenanigans must have been, and still is, and I get that you're simply done. I truly do. However, I think what your therapist is getting at, is that you need to understand he has mental limitations, and have the same understanding and compassion as you would if it were as dire or impactful as a physical one.
Disability
Submitted by on the edge on
I can accept that ADD is a disability and that I understand there are mental limitations. To use your analogy, I wouldn't be angry that my husband couldn't dance because he lost a leg. But I would be angry if he used it as an excuse to not get a job or help around the house or appreciate the things I do. That's what my husband has done. He says he doesn't help around the house because his ADD prevents him from noticing that there are stacks of dishes and dust bunnies the size of a horse.
So yes, I can be compassionate and understanding but I'm getting nothing in return. Marriage is supposed to be a partnership but it can't be when one person is pulling all the weight and the other is riding in the cart.
Accountability
Submitted by Hysterical37 (not verified) on
Totally relate
Submitted by Hysterical37 (not verified) on
Hi,
I totally relate to what you are saying. I agree with the thing about acceptance and for me it is about wanting better for yourself, it is about having a self esteem and saying that this is not acceptable for me, because I am unhappy,it is like if you accept the situation as it is you are accepting that you will be unhappy and lonely. For me the acceptance is about change, responsibility and what you can and cannot control. Can you or will you change him? probably not. Does he want to change? I doubt it or he would have done already. Why do you want him to change? Can you get your needs met from this relationship or will you start going elsewhere? It sounds like he does not want to take any responsibility to change and you are taking it all. You cannot change him, you can only give him options and then let him decide, the only person who can change him is him once he is aware of the problems that are raised with him, then it is up to him, I think this is what your therapist is saying, you cannot change him and you can accept that, but that is not the same as accepting your situation is it? I don't agree with comments about accepting this as a mental disability as that removes the responsibility from the person who has a disability, people with disabilities are not passive helpless people with no responsibility for their own or other people's wellbeing, they also have a choice about about how they live, how their behaviour impacts on others and if they are prepared to do anything about it to help themselves, because while they didn't ask for the disability they don't have a choice about living with it and they have my sympathy, but they have a choice about how they deal with it. This attitude does not help people with disabilities as it disempowers them and then everyone is unhappy.
I just met with my therapist,
Submitted by RitaMargarita on
I just met with my therapist, and coincidentally, she used just this scenario in describing the ADD brain. That they simply DO NOT notice the dust bunnies and dishes stacked up. She said it's not purposeful, it's not passive aggressive, they just DONT see things the way we do at all.
Basically, her point, and I think what you and most on her go through, is that you're still trying to get your H to be someone he simply physically IS NOT. You say you would forgive a missing leg, but you won't make allowances for his mental disability, which yes, is just as debilitating and impactful as if he had a missing leg.
Is he using ADD as a excuse? Likely, to some degree. But, as my recent ex told me, if someone else is willing to be the enabler, and do the lion's share of the work, then it is just so much easier for an ADD person to do less. You need to own your part in your marriage.
Bottom line, until you acknowledge and accept who he is, and stop trying to make him into someone he'll NEVER be, you'll forever make yourself (and, in turn, your children), unhappy and stressed.
He's missing a leg, Dvance. You have to accept it, and make your choices or changes accordingly.
Score! RitaMargarita
Submitted by kellyj on
Give that lady a cigar! (or a Strawberry Margarita) ka ching! lol
J
Disagree
Submitted by Hysterical37 (not verified) on
I think that's awesome, so so
Submitted by RitaMargarita on
I think that's awesome, so so encouraging. Truly. :)
However, I think the ability to train (or retrain), teach, and learn the brain and behaviors is far more successful and easy for children than adults. This is why kids can learn other languages, how to play musical instruments, etc. so much easier than adults. Their little minds have less experiences, and are far more spongey. lol Quite simply, their ability to learn is greater than adults. Much of ADD reconditioning comes from retraining patterns and habits. A child has only a few years of "bad" habits. We're talking about adults here who have 30-40 years of crap conditioning. Just think how us non-ADD spouses that are over 35 are so "set" in our ways, and how hard it is to change.
I think ADD is an explanation, not an excuse. At the same time, there needs to be a realistic view of who they are, and what they are capable of EVEN WITH MODIFICATIONS. I think many couples successfully navigate marriages with an ADD spouse. BUT, they likely got interventional help or understanding very early on. They likely negotiated what life would be like, taking into account each person's strengths and weaknesses, to build a strong partnership. It seems many of the non-ADD spouses on here are coming from years of pain, anger and frustration, that is purely blinding their ability to ever see their ADD spouse in any other light than they do today. And I get that, I really do. THAT is the real shame of ADD, IMO. Untreated for too long, it does seem to create irreparable damage, like any sustained abuse (or perceived abuse) would. Tragic, because all the non-ADD spouses on here talk about how wonderful their relationships were initially. :(
Adult ADHD
Submitted by Hysterical37 (not verified) on
I do have a realistic view of
Submitted by on the edge on
I do have a realistic view of what my ADD-spouse is capable of and I stopped expecting him to see those dishes and dust bunnies. But I feel like I've been taken advantage of. If he would have thanked me for making dinner once in a while, that would have made a difference. If he would have expressed any appreciation for anything I've done, it would have made a difference. If he would have acknowledged that I was supportive throughout the years and through all his different hobbies and interests, it would have made a difference.
Instead, I was told that I shouldn't expect appreciation for things he didn't ask me to do (even though they needed to be done). I was told that my support didn't count because I was only supportive "until it wasn't convenient to be supportive anymore." I was told that he would probably be interested in other women in the future.
I was willing to work with him and find a way for both of us to be happy in the marriage. I was willing to forgive and move on from the pain he has caused me through the years. He wasn't willing to do the same and as far as I can tell, either doesn't think he's done anything wrong or thinks my wrongs are so horrible that his wrongs are irrelevant.
So for me it hurts when you say that I am unable to see my ADD spouse in any other light. I feel like you're implying (and maybe I'm reading it wrong), that I'm the one who gave up on the marriage because of his ADD. But it takes two people to make a marriage work and I was the only doing that work.
Clarity
Submitted by Hysterical37 (not verified) on
No, I'm not saying that you
Submitted by RitaMargarita on
No, I'm not saying that you gave up at all. In fact, I'd say it looks like you've gone above and beyond. I truly believe you've tried hard to make it work. I totally take you at face value that your H couldn't come to the center to work on things with you.
But, that still leaves your current reality, which is that you're still hoping or expecting him to be someone he's not. You want appreciation, you want acknowledgement...all ENTIRELY fair, particularly when you're doing the bulk of the work. But, how many years has he been falling short in this regard? And how many years have you been complaining about it and building resentment and a chasm between you two?
That's my point, D. That you're still not seeing him for who he is, and what he's capable of giving you. He's not going to thank you. He's not going to step up. He's never going to be who you want, nor who you need. He's never going to be the partner you want, nor thought you married. Until you accept that, you'll continue to lead a very unhappy life, because you'll always be banging your head against the wall.
I know you've written you have your reasons for staying, but we all CAN make different choices. You're stuck. You're stuck emotionally, more than you are by circumstance. When I see this kind of thing (and I've been there, believe me) I wonder what motivates it all. I once had a relationship end in a very horrendous manner, which then left me STUCK. I couldn't move on from it. A good friend who is a shrink, finally pointed out that I was stuck. That his abandonment really was a trigger for a childhood event. Sometimes we refuse to leave bad marriages for deeper reasons than we let on.
You're clearly an intelligent and articulate woman who cares deeply about her family. But, you're so embroiled in disappointment and resentment, that I think even if your H did one good thing, you wouldn't even see it. Again, I'm not saying you're not justified, considering the years of pain you've endured...they add up and change a person, but, what's really driving staying in this marriage? (It's really more a rhetorical question for you to sit with and think on your own. Yes. it's anonymous here, but you don't need to answer if you don't want to.). :)
I think you're mixing me up
Submitted by on the edge on
I think you're mixing me up with dvance :)
But I agree that he will never be the partner I want or the one I thought I had.
I think what has kept me in this marriage has been an unwillingness to admit defeat and a fear of striking out on my own. I've gotten past those things and we are in the middle of a divorce. Ironically, he has been very motivated to get all the paperwork together and find out what we need to do and fill everything out. I've only read over what he's provided. It's amazing how productive and organized he can be when it's something he really wants.
I didn't mean to stir a whole
Submitted by dvance on
I didn't mean to stir a whole bunch of stuff up!!! Yes I am committed to staying in my marriage at least for the time being. My youngest is about to graduate from 8th grade. I figure I can manage until he goes to college and then I can leave. We are also in an enormous amount of debt-like so many of us here-that I have now started to pay off, so in four years I hope to be not only debt free but also have some kind of savings. Right now we cannot afford two households, so for me to even entertain divorce is pretty pointless. What is really on my mind is how much is ADHD and how much is just a crummy marriage? It's a chicken or the egg thing--do we have a crummy marriage because of 20 years of ADHD behaviors/enabling or is our marriage crummy because no one is motivated to deal with the ADHD behaviors??? Hard to tease that out. I can't figure out the difference between giving up and acceptance. I think they both probably look the same outwardly, it's the spirit that's different, which ultimately probably shows in the outward signs. I have heard the comparison to a handicapped person many times--I would not be angry if my wheelchair bound husband couldn't dance, so why can't I get my brain around his mental limitations? It is so hard for me to understand how a grown person can NOT SEE physical objects that need to be managed. Small example: we had a humidifier in the bedroom all winter. DH snores and that helped. So even though it is now warmer where we live, I have continued to fill up the humidifier and turn it on. DH keeps turning it off but it sits there full. It took me about three weeks to figure that out so I asked why he kept turning it off. He said we don't need it any more now that it's nice out. So why not dump the water out and store the thing? Listen--don't jump all over me--I know that is a super teeny tiny picky thing--what I am saying is how long would he have just left the full humidifier sit there? Indefinitely I'm guessing. It's just so odd to me--it took me less than 5 minutes to dump the small tank and stick the thing under the bathroom sink to wait for winter. How does a grown person function like that? PLEASE don't nail me for griping about such a small thing--I recognize that it is a small thing. My issue for myself is how many small things add up to big things and how more and for how long can I act like all is well?
Giving support to dvance
Submitted by HeyMare1960 on
dvance, I wanted to reply to let you know you are not alone. I have been where you are and in many respects still am. I commented on another thread about how my ADHD husband leaves the door to our home open, forgets to close the freezer door, leaves food out to spoil....I could go on and on. Is it the end of the world? No. Can I understand how an adult human could not see the milk is on the counter? He certainly knew enough to know that milk is kept in the fridge when he went to get it!! The small things add up and just suck the life out of you. I can't feel joy or relief or warmth at coming home at the end of the day for fear of what I will find. I got to the point several years ago where I just couldn't take it any more except, I too had a child still home. I had spent years dancing around so that his screw ups didn't hurt the kids. I went to counseling on my own, without him, and got one who was very supportive of ME. With her encouragement, I worked at me, what did I want, what life did I want to live, and started living that life. He had gotten us into a financial bind also.
A couple of years ago, I started living my life, protecting myself financially, keeping my money separate from his, saving for myself. I walk away when he blows up, I gave up any fantasy of having a nice home, I refuse to clean up after him even if I have to simply toss something into the garbage. He saw the change in me and has been working to be more responsible, to apologize for things he does that are hurtful, to try and be present in the marriage and in life. Because I don't need to be here. And by my actions, he knows that.
Stay strong for yourself. Not for him. Get yourself where you want to be or where you can be. Be prepared to bail out of the marriage to save yourself. I'm still in my marriage as long as he acts like a grown up.
From what?
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
<<<
We are also in an enormous amount of debt
<<<
From what? Who did the spending? If it was him, does he expect YOU to help pay that off? If so, why? the reason I'm asking is because he has this, "not my problem," attitude with you, so if the debt is his, why not have the same attitude with him about this?
debt is from...
Submitted by dvance on
We have about $12,000 worth of debt and no savings. DH got fired from 2 jobs in the past three years and spent all of 2014 unemployed. Two years ago he was suicidal and had a three week inpatient stay in a psych hospital, then moved out for 6 months. He has been in therapy ever since. We owe weekly for that. I am in therapy weekly. We owe for that. We see a marriage counselor. My youngest son (13) has Asperger's, sensory issues and ADHD. He sees a weekly therapist. He has a heart issue that needs monitoring every six months-that's a fortune. He needed another complete neuorpsych eval in the fall to get him ready for high school--that was $3000. Oldest son sees an ADHD coach, but otherwise he is a fine and normal 16 year old--no extraordinary expenses for him. While DH was unemployed, we were unable to continue making payments on a lot of the outstanding debt, so at the least it just sat there and at the most it accrued interest and got bigger--each bill was different that way. DH got a job in Dec 2015 and we now have small savings account, maxed out his 401K right away and have started paying back bills. I received a promotion in March that came with a pretty substantial pay raise, so that is helping too. Now, youngest son needs braces that are $2500--that is next on the agenda. So I can't necessarily blame the debt on anyone--we have no credit cards, one car is paid off and we rent our place. But since I manage the money, the worry is on me. Our entire tax refund paid back a big chunk of bills which was awesome--still chipping away at it. That is a big reason I cannot leave the marriage right now--we could never afford two households.
"either doesn't think he's
Submitted by Kansasry on
"either doesn't think he's done anything wrong or thinks my wrongs are so horrible that his wrongs are irrelevant."
From what I've read here about the views and beliefs from the ADHD spouse, this statement here is pretty consistent. I've seen it on post after post. The ADHD spouse is perfect the non is the crazy one, wrong one, the only problem.
My H refuses to admit he has done anything wrong. He refuses to admit or accept that his behavior, even if it's not ADD related, has caused me any pain. The only thing he wants to address is my behavior. He focuses on his intent not what really transpired. He focuses on my outburst and how I behave in defending my self and my character. He believes my behavior is the only issue and refuses to acknowledge that when I confront him about his nude self photos he has from women he knows that I'm angry because it's wrong. Its the fact that I'm angry and yelling at him and telling the other woman to stay out of my marriage. That's the real issue, not his actions. When I want to talk about what he is doing (or not), for the 10th time, and the only reaction I get is defensiveness, lies, gaslighting and the continuing of the behavior and public humiliation of me, yeah at that point I start yelling. At that point I will defend my character from the public lies and name calling H does and encourages others to do. He refuses to believe there is any correlation to his actions or behavior. He thinks I just wake up one day and think it's the perfect day to have a meltdown.
I know I would look better if I just kept my head down, eyes and mouth shut. I would be the perfect wife if I just let him do as he wishes and never shared if I was in pain or felt insecure or unwanted. He would love me, and so would his friends, if I just kept doing everything-work full time, clean the house, make dinner, pick up after him, run all the errands, yard work, laundry, put his clothes away, ensure he never runs out of anything, stop complaining about how much time he is on his computer or the phone engaging with everyone but me, work out so I can meet his physical expectations for his wife, remind him of everything and drop what I'm doing because he is so helpless, stop demanding that he not engage in EA or sexual flirtations, and never react when he drinks a bottle of whisky and becomes even more of an ass-but darn it I'm human. I am not a machine.
But at the end of the day, my H is perfect and I'm crazy. This seems to be a real ADHD behavior, the details may be something else but the mentality is ADHD.
Kansasry A Crack of Light Appeared.....
Submitted by kellyj on
last night with my wife ( in light of this thread and everything I've said to this point). It was a typical scenario....I'm sitting down with a hot dinner in front of, I'm tired and sweaty and I haven't eaten for 6 hours from working all day in the sun, I'm dehydrated and bleary and my head is swimming (95 degrees here yesterday)...and all I could think about was just sitting down and getting some food in me and something to drink (water). And right as I take my first bite of food my asks me "are you happy with me?"
The results of this situation as best I could was to try and say as many positive things to her as I could and then get back to recovering from my day and finish eating, She responded by something that seemed completely incoherent to anything that was happening in the moment and on top of it....dismissed me by saying "this isn't going well....we should not talk about this." Which I had agreed when she said that I was to respect her and not push. "Okay...thanks for that. I was fine a minute ago,I gave you some nice compliments and now I tired and irritated on top of all the things I said already. There is no winning here???????????"
I'll fast forward to end of this. After I took a shower and fed myself and cooled off in all ways, I sat down and said. " What was that all about?" I have no idea...why you asked me that right then, what you were looking for when you asked since you said this isn't going well, and why you cut me off and didn't want to talk about it after I complimented you and only said nice things....what the hell? I am completely lost and now I'm kind of pissed because it felt like you came in and dumped a bucket of water on my head and then turned around and left without letting me respond to you?"
That's when she said...."well, when you were finishing up out side I asked you if you would quit and come in and spend some time with me and when I did that you looked like that was a big inconvenience for you which just shows me how unimportant I was compared to finishing working."
In reality.....I have trouble shifting gears. When someone/anyone (suddenly asks me to change or do something in the moment outside of what I am doing...it takes me a moment to respond and think. In this case....she asked me and I said sure...I'll be there in a few and quit working and came inside just as I said. No problem?
How I project myself without knowing is hesitation. My wife read this to mean something personal about her and I have no idea what I look like when I do this since no one has ever video taped me so I can see myself in those moments (my moments of hesitation). For all I know ....I could be doing almost anything...squinting, frowning mouth, wrinkling my nose, staring at the sky? I have no idea because no one has ever called me on this before?? What I think I do or the face I make is kind of a combination squint and smirk (that Steve McQueen or Clint Eastwood squint??? no comparison ...just the expression;) That would be my quess but I have no idea like I said but it feels like this when I looked in the mirror and that's what I remained me of. lol
And because of that face.....my wife was compelled to ask me right then if I was happy with her even though as far as I knew...I was more than happy to quit working in the sun and come in and spend some time with her so this made absolutely no sense to me what so ever? She did seem a little crazy to me through this entire exchange until I finally asked her what this was all about? Once she did....I told her the same thing I just told you here and everything was Okay after that because this is exactly what she saw.
I think once things start going in the wrong direction....it's really hard to reverse the old pattern and read into things and make assumption incorrectly unless you are really clear in saying exactly what it is you are feeling and you saying up front in what you are really wanting the other person to respond to or both people end up looking rather crazy to each other in times like this.
I'm calling last night a success.....it was the first crack of light in a scenario in the past where both of us would have ended up not getting what we wanted and feeling pushed away. I think this is the same kind of misinterpretations that cause so many of the things that can lead to the things you are talking about but getting back out of this kind of funk is the real trick I think.
J
Hi RitaM.....
Submitted by kellyj on
I wanted to expand on what you said earlier (and my quick affirmation lol ) and put my two bits in here (being ADHD and all ) starting with this comment from you previous post Is he using ADD as a excuse?
Likely, to some degree. I think this is a reasonable place to start. It's only human nature to take the path of least resistance at times, but this is certainly not an absolute by any means. Character qualities like ambition, will and drives to succeed and overcome obstacles are also taught as a child too. I think there are many other kinds of drives in a person that can supersede the ones that ADHD has more power over control than the average person. I see this in myself now if I had not before. The pulls or drives that will throw us off course can be corrected but you first have to understand which ones those are? I'm saying for US who have it.
Hunger pains or sex drives (especially when you're young ) are pretty easy to notice in yourself without a problem. But...executive functioning issues are far less noticeable than these for example......and are much more subtle and more difficult to distinguish even minor difference between you and another person until you stand back from it over a long period of time. And too a certain extent.....subtleties in general can get pretty easily confused with being outgoing or animated in personality vs hyperactive and impulsive as just one example. We got to be watching for 8 or 9 different kinds of areas of executive functioning issue related to ADHD, and each one requite a somewhat specific remedy different from one another. I know this because this is exactly what I'm in the process of doing now. Sure....you can just follow some prescribed remedies and without question they will work....but if you are going to really gain control and over power the "drives" you don't want......you at least need to understand what they are and which ones to override (in yourself) As the spouses with us, it's not so important that you are this intimate with these things for obvious reasons.....but on a fundamental level.....you do need to understand the things that you commented on (in that way) and resist making speculations, judgments or uninformed opinions only because they are not going to give you an accurate reason for our behavior and especially, because you have a vested interest in this personally....... and because of another human tendency to base things on yourself as a means to understand and access others. There's the problem. You (non's) don't a "feel" for what it is to have these differences and all you have to go on is you. Your means to gage our behavior is missing this one vital component to do it accurately and we can't translate this to you in a way you will ever understand it in the same way we do. If that makes sense?
I had to differentiate these things first ( and still am ) and closely watch myself to know when I needed to override what?..... in the moment I can't tell you how difficult this is to do in the first place. It really takes a dedicated effort and a learned ability to acquire this skill.
I think it's fair to say that if you are untreated and undiagnosed and know nothing about ADHD......you are pretty much left with making excuses for something that you don't understand yourself?
But once you are diagnosed.....you still have to set about making the changes and learning a new set of skills which takes time to do. I will only disagree with one speculation that was made about children and adults and their ability to compensate for ADHD. While yes....children are far more adaptive and learn new skill more readily than adults.....they also lack the ability or capacity as an adult to learn things cognitively and the experience that goes along with it. For myself (here)......having these things over when I was a child and being older......it worked in just the opposite of what you were speculating to my advantage. That old adage of "teaching old dogs new tricks" is somewhat of a stereotype referring to the natural tendency to getting set in your ways.....but that really has nothing to do with a persons will or wanting to push that aside if there is something that is more important to them or that they want to change at any age. There's nothing that I can see or feel in myself that has any relationship to my ability to make changes for myself and learn anything new outside of a willingness and a desire to to do....back to character rather than hard wiring issues?
That's why I agreed with what you said so quickly because I agree with your comments 100%. ADHD is not excuse if you are in the process of relearning, retraining your brain and acquiring new skills but ......one thing that has not been mentioned here is the time it takes while you are an adult vs a child especially when you have responsibilities to other people (spouses), career and/or children at the same time. This is more of a logistical issue not one inside our brains.
If there was such a thing as ADHD rehab where you could take a year off and go to a facility and became immersed in doing all that is necessary to do without any other distractions for that long a period of time.....my guess is that this would be the equivalent to 5 years (or more?) of trying to do this while sustaining your current situation at the same time......the same as going to college for 4 years when you are young. I really don't see the difference in this myself.
So the reason (not the excuse ) for why this is so difficult for us and why you or the people with us need to understand at least this much is so you can help us in specific ways in the process ( actually can be extremely helpful if you are on board with the process itself with feedback other than negative reinforcement:) ) and dispel any natural tendencies to access what you are seeing incorrectly. I see this as almost mandatory for any more immediate or sustained changes. In the ideal world.....this would make a huge difference on all levels but understanding of course....why this isn't always possible.
I would add this to the missing leg analogy (which I've used myself....I like it! ) Before you are diagnosed.....you're missing a leg but don't realized this yourself. All you know is that you can't jump but don't understand the reason why? All you can do is make up excuses. After you are diagnosed.....you've got to go through the entire process of relearning to do things with prosthetics and therapy....but it still won't grow your leg back for you because nothing will ever do that. With time....you can learn to do things quite well even with a missing leg but....there still will be some limitations. And one of the biggest challenges for everyone involved is the process itself which can be either improved on with your spouses encouragement and support...or made worse from a lack of it. At the very least.....prolonged with less results over time in the latter.
This is assuming that both people understand any of this and both are willing to do whatever is needed. For us...we have to get educated, get help (therapy) and go through all the required motions to succeed. including creating the necessary environment that is conducive to and fulfilling these needs in the overall picture. environment. The last part is not optional in my opinion or you're never going to get there without it. That's the part that you spouse can either be a deterrent or an asset to this entire process. Encouragement, knowledge and support is about all you can do but it's more than enough if a person is really doing something about it. Changes can be made without question under these conditions and to the point ( with me) even without these conditions but.....it just takes longer.
The question is......do other people (spouses) want to do this or not?
As you said You have to accept it, and make your choices or changes accordingly. This is a great statement because personal choice is always an option. If my wife left me tomorrow....it wouldn't change a thing in my desire or my ability to improve on my ADHD but....she is free to do this at any time and I would understand her reasons for this. The people married to us do not have to take this on and can move on and find someone else if they choose who don't have ADHD. That choice is always there and I could not personally argue against it myself if my wife made that choice. I will always have ADHD and I want to make the best of my life by improving on my symptoms no matter what the circumstance are....this much I have already accepted and don't have a problem with it. Help from my wife would be greatly appreciated but....at the same time...is not necessary either. I will do this either way for myself no matter what.
Anyway....I really did like what you said and if I could mail you a Strawberry Margarita.....I'd so for saying what you said. Dry ice maybe? lol
J
PS......I don't think there is an excuse anywhere in what I just said but I fully understand...not everyone who has ADHD is like me but at the same time....I don't see myself as special or having any special gift either. I think anyone can do this if they are committed to making the effort.
This is why active parenting can make such a difference....
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
<<<<
I worked with kids with ADHD who have made successful changes through making them accountable for their actions and these were changes made when they previously believed they couldn't help it because they had ADHD. I'm not saying they became high functioning but the improvement was massive.
<<<
You held these kids accountable. That is something that their parents weren't doing with these kids, starting at a YOUNG age. Their parents may have loved them dearly, may never have abused them, but they made some critical mistakes while raising them....probably were too easy on them, gave in to them, didn't train them, etc.
My MIL never held her kids accountable for anything. NO one got reprimanded for being late, doddling, not doing chores, etc. Whatever they did (or didn't do) was fine with her. There was NO training or guiding as the kids were growing up. And, to no one's surprise, none of her kids have much/any Executive Function. AND...when bad things happen, they just say, "oh, I had bad luck". It doesn't even cross their minds that anything they DID caused this.
As for "not seeing dust bunnies," there is a solution for that....training. I may not notice certain things (say spots on the windows), but if I am trained to "look over" the windows once a month to check for spots, then I'll notice them AT THAT TIME...even if I don't notice them when just going about my business.
Does your H expect any help from you in regards to anything?
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
>>>>
I cannot tell you how many things I have missed or been late to because he feels no responsibility to me if I don't hear the alarm. I have asked him why he doesn't nudge me and he says that's not his job.
>>>>
<<<
he tells me that he has to take care of himself first....
>>>>>
I am curious. Does he ever expect help? Does he ever think you're supposed to put HIM first? Does he ever think it's your job to help him with anything? Does he do his own shopping, cooking, laundry, cleaning, planning, etc, etc?
What do you do for him (if anything)?
I would imagine that there are few husbands, particularly ones who are mentally unhealthy, who don't expect their wives to help them out. Maybe your H is unique, but if he truly never expects you to help him in any way, I suspect that he has more issues than just ADHD.
If your H truly lives like he's on an island by himself with no expectations of help or anything from anyone, then not only do I wonder why he married, but what else is wrong with him. Is he on the spectrum? Does he have a sense of humor? Does he have any close friends? Is he socially awkward?
more info
Submitted by dvance on
I definitely think there is more than ADHD. Some I know, some I don't. When he was suicidal two years ago, it came out that he had been physically and sexually abused as a child. He is also a combat vet. Both of those experiences cause him to suffer from complex PTSD and depression. He used to be on a ton of meds, but none right now--including no ADHD meds--his choice. His thinking about so many things is so odd. He never wants any gifts for any occasion, but has always gotten me nice things. He is totally uninvolved in planning any celebrations for the kids though. Oldest son is going to be 16 on May 29 and youngest son graduates from 8th grade on June 4 so I am working on a big joint something for them. He has no interest. I buy all the birthday/Christmas gifts. Most of the time he doesn't know what I bought and is just as surprised as they are when they open the gifts. He is helpful around the house, but will drive himself into the ground doing it. If he has something that breaks or wears out and I offer to get a new one, he says no, no, he can deal with the old/shabby/broken one. I used to go get him a new whatever despite his saying no, now I don't bother. It's an odd mix of victim and hero. On one hand, he talks about every job he has ever had and claims he is the only person in the ENTIRE company who knows what's going on and thank god they hired him. And when he gets fired he says the company is going to go under without him because he was the only person who knew anything about anything. Such an odd way to see yourself in the world. If he makes dinner he asks us multiple times during the meal if it's good and do we like it. Many times. Why? How much validation do you need for a simple task? I used to pack him lunch when I was packing the boys lunches and for the longest time he would say no, don't worry about it but then he just wouldn't eat. It took me a while to catch on to that-why not let me make the lunch when I am already making two others? And then if I did make the lunch I would see pieces of the lunches in his truck--like lots of leftovers way beyond safe to eat that he had not eaten which meant he just hadn't eaten that day. Why? He has no friends outside of us, he is socially awkward, odd sense of humor--VERY sarcastic. My boys hate it and he won't stop.
Here is what I really think: I think DHs therapist has done him more harm than good. I think DH has gotten the message that since he was so neglected and mistreated as a child and never got what he needed then, he deserves or is allowed to put himself first now. It's like he's making up for lost time. If I call him he may or may not answer, if I text he typically doesn't answer at all. Interestingly, if I call and he doesn't answer, I may wait 15 minutes then block my number and call again and he answers right way. Odd. It's like he never got to be a carefree kid so now he is going to be a carefree adult. It's not that he doesn't expect help, I think he truly doesn't see or consider all that I do to keep the house running. It's worse now because he travels Monday through Friday, so he really isn't around. Half the time he doesn't know what we do from day to day. When he was starting out in therapy after getting out of the hospital, I went to the sessions maybe once a month just to check in--at DHs request. Nightmare. The therapist wanted me to make a list of adjectives for feelings that I could show DH before I asked him anything or talked to him about anything so DH could tell me how he was feeling and if he was able to handle whatever I had to say at that moment. The therapist had him hang a hook, like a metal coat hook, inside our walk in closet and put three washers on it. Every time I asked DH a question in a day, I had to remove a washer, so once I was out of washers I didn't get to ask him anything else that day--about anything. So each day I only got three questions--and it was everything from what do you want for dinner to are you feeling suicidal today. So somewhere along the line he got very protective of himself but in an over the top way. He says that now (it's been two years) he feels fine, no depression, which I believe, but he just doesn't seem to be able to handle very much. Mondays both kids see their support people--ADHD coach for the 16 year old and therapist for the 13 year old. This past Monday was a tough appointment-lots of crappy grades and end of the year nonsense. When DH called he asked how the appointments were and I said difficult and he goes, huh. Well, can I talk to (youngest son). So no follow up on why the appointments were hard. Wouldn't you ask that?? Yes, I could have kept talking but in a normal conversation, most people if you said something was difficult would jump in and continue. We tend not to have conversations, we tend to just give information to each other. I will talk and talk and he will literally stand there and when I am finished say, okay-done? and walk away. In therapy I have brought this up and he says "what do you want me to say back? you're just telling me things. what is there to say back". While this is technically correct, I feel dumb when I just rattle on and on and there is nothing coming back, so I tend to not say much of anything at all. We can easily sit on the couch with the TV on for two hours and say nothing. I don't mean not much I mean literally nothing. I have been in a car with him for perhaps 30 minutes and literally no words are spoken. And it's not a companionable silence. It's a "there is nothing left to talk about" silence. He is the most self contained person I have ever known. I imagine he would miss me but really his life would not be that different. He has told me that due to his abusive childhood he doesn't think he deserves anything and he expects nothing from anyone.
It all sounds like
Submitted by ChrisChris on
I have to say your therapist seems to be giving instructions on how to enable terrible behavior. Make a list of adjectives for feelings to show your husband before you ask him anything? And you can only ask him three questions? My goodness! That sounds like sexist advice from the 1950's - of the "meet your husband at the door with a martini wearing nothing but a smile" variety.
It's not MY therapist or even
Submitted by dvance on
It's not MY therapist or even OUR therapist--it's HIS therapist. HATE him. I truly think his therapist has done us way more harm than good. The few times I did go with DH for check ins, it was all what I should be doing to make life easier for DH--hence the lists of adjectives, the "question hooks". It was like dealing with a child. Even now, before I say anything, I think about what I'm saying, how I'm saying it, what time of day it is, what kind of mood he is in--it really is ridiculous. DH tells me he can handle everything now, that he feels fine, but how can that be true when I mention that something was difficult and he doesn't pursue that or never asks why it was difficult? Our rabbit just had a HUGE surgery that there is no way we could afford, but I made a plan with the vet and it's fine. He never asked how we are affording it. Oldest son turned 16 on Friday. I did all the shopping and arranged the birthday dinner, cake, invites, etc. Oldest son wanted these super expensive headphones that I wouldn't buy for him even if we could afford them--I mean, really, what 16 year old needs $300 headphones?!?! But...I found them on sale for $100 so he got the super expensive ones for a price we could afford! Yippee! DH has no idea. What am I trying to say? I don't know--it seems to me if he could actually handle everything, he would ask about more stuff that goes on around here BUT so many other folks have said to me and in general on this board is that DH does have a disability, he does not see things the way I do, so how do I reconcile that? How do you have a relationship where you have no expectations of the other person? How does that even work? On one hand it's pretty freeing, because nothing is expected of me either, but it's pretty lonely to be reminded almost daily that no one has my back.
Not possible.
Submitted by ChrisChris on
How do you have a relationship where you have no expectations of the other person? In my opinion, you can't. It's not possible. The word 'relationship' implies a state of being connected on some level - not disengagement. I remember back in college I had some intrusive roomies that I WISHED would behave this way, and that's the only time that I've wished for a person to be totally disconnected, uninterested and passive.
Congrats on finding that headphones bargain. Are they BeatsbyDre?
What you said about can't
Submitted by dvance on
What you said about can't have a relationship with no expectations? that's what I'm afraid of. it's the oddest dynamic in my house--has been for a while now. I have absolutely no expectations of him at all. he does plenty of stuff when he is not traveling for business, and I always thank him, but it's nothing I wouldn't do myself if he didn't. I mean really--you even have expectations of the checker at the grocery store--they tally up your groceries and take your money, you get your groceries. it's a brief, finite relationship, but still a relationship with expectations. I try to tell myself that this arrangement is better because it's not as entangled/co-dependent as it might have been in the future, but I don't really think that's the truth. Really I think it's just sad and we were actually done a while ago and just can't pull the plug for financial reasons. When DH travels for work, he may or may not put it on our family google calendar where he is going. Often I don't know where he is. He may or may not call me while he is gone. He rarely answers texts, so I pretty much stopped sending them. If his flight is delayed, he may or may not let me know. Last week he was due to land at 5:30 and didn't get home until almost 11pm--claims flight was delayed. Since I don't know what airline he flew, I have no way to confirm that. Whatever. So I pretty much come and go as I please too. When he is out of town, I do all kinds of things that he never knows I do. I joined a hot yoga studio and took classes for about 3 weeks before he ever heard about it because most of the classes I do while he is out of town. Not that it was some big state secret, but he's not around so who cares? I go out with friends, shop, go out with my sons--all kinds of stuff he has no idea.
So the headphones were Sol Republic--usually $300, I got them on clearance at Best Buy for $100!!!!! Oldest son was really happy!!!!!
Disengagement is not a healthy goal
Submitted by ChrisChris on
Hi DVance,
I hear you big time on this one. I like your example of the supermarket checkout. My go-to example is sallying-up to an ATM console where I have a certain expectation that my account balance will be given to me. Or if I push the walk-light button to cross the street, very soon I can expect the traffic to stop at a red light to let me cross. These small cause-and-effect transactions throughout the day only seem to highlight the crazy nothingness from an off-the-chart-ADHD partner at home. It's just not OK. I believe the overabundance of co-dependent shop-talk is a problem in this scenario. We hear it all the time don't we - "Better this almost-schizoid behavior than a co-dependent situation."
To this I say, WHAT?? When did yearning for basic human interaction become a slippery slope to co-dependency?
Explicit Rules and Defined Boundaries ChirsChris
Submitted by kellyj on
In reference to my experience with our T yesterday....the only request I made for my wife was for her to give me clear and unambiguous rules to follow. These are not for her benefit....their for mine. Their my protection so to speak so I know exactly where the boundary lines are in the first place. Your examples of cross walks and traffic signals are really good ones....clear and defined with no room for error. In context to my wife for example.....I'm the pedestrian and she's driving the car. This will be the next thing that is going to be discussed in our T sessions which he has already alluded to and mentioned again in our session. Clear and undefined boundaries for everyone with no need for translation or interpretation.
J
boundaries and who defines them
Submitted by ChrisChris on
Yes having definable boundaries is essential. However, at some point it will be necessary for you to co-author those boundaries that now fall solely onto your wife to define and uphold. In other words, you are not always going to be the pedestrian hitting the walk-light button. You know what I mean?
Yes Absolutely
Submitted by kellyj on
Yesterday's experience was the first step only. My T causally mentioned in passing that he will explain things to me later. I understood that to mean that we will get together alone and discuss this more. I expected as much and was already going to mention it to him but he was way ahead of me as usual. I'm glad you mentioned this.
J
Oh hallelujah to your last
Submitted by dvance on
Oh hallelujah to your last sentence!!! My DH spouts so much therapy-speak I hardly know what is him and what is something he heard and misinterpreted from his shrink. Basic human interaction is so fraught in my house it's exhausting. Nothing that either of us says is taken at face value. I tip toe around afraid to say much for fear of overwhelming him, he just doesn't notice anything, so he doesn't say much period. It's bizarre. Another example: he is not currently on any medication, not for depression, not for PTSD and not for ADHD. I think he should be on ADHD meds, but it's not my place to say that. The way things have evolved in the past two years, I don't feel comfortable or like it's even up to me to have an opinion. I said that to our marriage therapist in a solo appointment and he was baffled. He said OF COURSE I get to have an opinion as to whether my husband takes a medication that would help him function better in our relationship. I am telling you--I would sooner take a bullet than suggest to DH that he go back on meds. It is no longer my place to have an opinion about that. That is what we have come to. DH has gained tons of weight--same thing--I'm not saying a word--not my place any more. I don't know whose place it is, but not mine. The fall out would be too great. So there we are, two adults with 25 years of history between us, functioning like polite strangers because we are both too afraid to make demands on the other. Sad and I fear unrecoverable.
Hi dvance...very open and honest post...
Submitted by c ur self on
I will say this about Acceptance...Without it I wasn't a very good husband, I wasn't very good to myself...My emotions and physiological state weren't very stable...My own children were very concerned...
But, I also know so well about all the things that drop away as you put it....This is me simply stating what you put into so much wonderful detail...All the things that I consider automatics in a warm loving spousal relationship mostly don't happen between our spouses and us, because people like my wife and your husband aren't made up in away that allows them to live in this manner. There own life consumes them.
This is what I had to Accept...And now that I'm moving forward a little in this mind...I realize more and more the freedom I have, and the peace I have....
Let's face it...This (acceptance) would not be such a must for us, if we had a good marriage to begin with....Good meaning one where both parties gave themselves to one another freely, lovingly and most of all willingly...One where patients to hear and be with the other is of a high priority. Not because of neediness, but just because of plan ole LOVE:)
A life that is so self consuming must be left to it's own devices...
Blessings C.....
This Sounds So Familiar D
Submitted by kellyj on
I've been trying to answer the same questions about my wife's behavior? Trying to talk to her is like twenty questions and never getting the answer. What I do see is a lot of shameless behavior and anger. One time, when we were first together, I had a weird experience with her. Weird in the sense that I could not explain her reaction to me. It didn't make sense and I asked what was wrong? Back then there was not much she could say in that moment but "I have abandonment" feeling or issues, I can't recall exactly the words but abandonment came out and I have never her say it again? Recently, I looked up abuse and abandonment for a child and I think I came up with a pretty good explanation on a web site that described my wife to a "T". When I recently asked reminded her of what she said she got really defensive and stormed out of the room....like "what did I say?" I was just asking if she could remember saying that? If she was right when she said the word "abandonment" (which now I think she was exactly right) here's the Link that describes this affliction better than anything I've seen. This goes well beyond insecurity....and when they say things are "deep seated" emotional issues and the reason why they are so subliminal to a person who suffers like this, it may offer you some understanding of exactly what your T is trying to do? Then again, he may be causing more harm than good? Either way, this article may shed some light on the subject if this is part of what's going on with your H which he cannot explain?....or better, what you cannot explain the same way I see behavior in my wife that completely defies and explanation and doesn't match with any behavior that I have experienced quite the same.
I will say however....that coming from having ADHD and my own experiences and even remembering my past and how I felt at times.....I can see how this could have manifested into something much more like my wife if things had not been different for me. I can't say that I ever lost my ability to have self esteem to the level that this article describes. Unfortunately in my case.....it didn't give me much hope either.....just a possible means so I can understand better. It might be worth taking a look and see for your own peace of mind?
The thing that you said Most people appreciate being worried about and asked questions of-most people don't see that as intrusive or interrogating, but I have learned to not worry and not ask. and I don't know what I would even call what we have now-it's very business like. Lonely. Empty. and My pastor (DH doesn't go to church with me very often) asked if DH was happy and I had no idea. How would I know that? I can't tell you how much I understand this.
And thinking in terms of lonely? Here's the definition isolated, alone, lonesome, friendless, with no one to turn to, forsaken, abandoned, rejected, unloved, unwanted, outcast. There's the magic word....abandoned. If you look at this article and see how you feel this might explain better why you feel the way you do as it did for me? ( at the very least if it might help?)
In my wifes case (I'm not speculating here about your H) what I read did help me understand why I was feeling the same as you? If anything else.....I do understand the same feelings at the very least:)
http://www.internet-of-the-mind.com/abandonment-issues.html
j
Self fulfilling prophecy
Submitted by Hysterical37 (not verified) on
Thank You for Bringing this Up H37
Submitted by kellyj on
This is the question that I have for myself. Can I make any positive effective impact on the dynamic and still work at improving myself. As yet....my self esteem is not at issue only as far as I understand and am aware of the dynamic and how to avoid this myself (me becoming my this way to fill the imbalance in the dynamic) but the inverse relationship that pushes and pulls out of her need verses my need to have my own independence (including of course...needing to work on and improve my ADHD for myself and us at the same time) of hers will surely be the death or us both together...this much I am clear of. Her stability is not my responsibility but I have my own issues with maintaining mine anyway which without hers in play....I can manage fairly well on my own to stay level but....it can be tenuous for sure under the wrong conditions. I now know this better than I ever use to believe was true.
If I didn't see this before, I do see it know and from that....seeing my own failures within the dynamic (not me being a failure;). The question is...can it work as I cannot be the only part that changes which is exactly what we are talking about? That would be the point where I would leave only in that I already know just how unhealthy perpetuating this can be. It will only get worse not better. Going down with the ship may be a noble cause but if there is no room for growth and independence it will be unhealthy for both people in this kind of relationship. Can she move my direction enough so that we both can have a healthy relationship together even I can move far enough for her so she can feel comfortable and not compromise myself at the same time?
This is the process we are in even if she cannot see it or wants to admit her part in this (take ownership of it). If she cannot do this I fear for our survival together as I cannot do this part for her and yet....I haven't done all the things evenclose to my part now that I can understand where I have failed at my efforts so far.
J
You cant do it
Submitted by Hysterical37 (not verified) on
Emotional Reaction
Submitted by Hysterical37 (not verified) on
Yes H37
Submitted by kellyj on
And even in my own failure to see this.....it has also been where I have not known why this affects my wife so greatly ( within her Abandonment issue). If I did not know this before....it is what I have now begun to learn. This much is where I can be held accountable. To the point of enacting on it ( not understanding the dynamic itself based on her now) and knowing how to effectively make changes to it. In our case I guess you might say.....the normal course of action is not what is needed with us for all intensive purposes. There is no sense arguing my anger to her.....whether it is appropriate or not in her eyes's even if no one else would agree with her. Not understanding this myself is why I have failed to know what to do differently. Trusting her to tell me is not going to work in other words. I now understand what she was testing for. For her, nothing outside this is going to prove anything different. This really is the focal point that I have been missing to see. And it has been the moving target that I have been trying to hit (as it appeared to me) simply because I wasn't targeting the right thing in the first place.
I want to thank you H37 in helping me make this discovery. Between you and AlmaVera, who was instrumental in introducing me to ACoA (which I believe is the actual source of my wife's issues not alcoholism herself) your insight has proven to be invaluable to me, and before I forget to mention.... my appreciation:) To the point of accurately stating an confirming once again where I am right now in the process itself. Our issues (sensitivities) are competing that's for sure!!
I did have to sort out my ADHD and that was the clear first step. This only aggravated my wife issues even more to certain point. it certainly did nothing in effecting any change. Her issues tend to escalate on their own and now I can understand this better too. And I did have to make myself more immune to preserve my own self esteem which I'm feeling much better about as well. I can now focus more on how to change the dynamic with a better understanding of it. We're going to our T today with my new found understanding in hand. I'm hoping for direction more than therapy at this point (for me) and I do believe he understands this from everything I have heard from him so far even if I didn't completely understand in context of our meeting together in the past. It's why it felt like the burden was more on me (which was not the issue) but just not understanding why and the importance of where I placed my efforts. I'm feeling a little more hopeful than I did a week a go;)
J
Recommendation
Submitted by Hysterical37 (not verified) on
Thanks for the Recomendation
Submitted by kellyj on
I will check it out. It occurred to me, as I was thinking about this more, that from my perspective...relating is the big issue. I see her struggling and trying very hard to relate with me instead of to me in a way that makes sense to her. Of course it's the same with me. Knowledge is wonderful but it can't give the experience of another person. I see this as my big mistake in trying to form a connection. She does relate to her reactions and makes assumptions based on that. I can see this even if she can't but, no amount of experience or knowledge I have is going to give me the same ability she has in knowing what she knows. I'm completely at a loss (naive) to her experience and have no basis to relate to her in that way. Trying to get there or understand her that way is a lost cause. The biggest obstacle is her need to rescue and confusing sympathy with love (the connection). The more I improve....the less sympathy or rescuing I need from her. When we met...I had a lot of loose ends to tie off and some smoldering fires to put out and she was right there to help which was great in all respect, but she also didn't know me before when this was not the case. It really was what I was feeling from her.....a loss in her ability to be happy for me and even to the point of disdain.....pulling me back. I can relate this to my family in some regards.....needing me to stay where I was and not wanting me to change and move forward (holding me back). I can and have told her of my experiences as a means to connect that way but that's also where the competitive aspect starts to come in. You know...there is no way anyone can know how bad my experience was so nothing you experienced was as bad as mine. On the other hand you get the reverse and the assumptions that go along with everyone feels the same as me and therefore no need to explain.Why can't you understand? I understand this is part of what we're talking about but that still does not give me the answer of how to know without the experience myself. It does leave you in a corner with no way out at times when she has her reactive anger. This is also the pushing back I was feeling in those moments. She definitely misinterprets many things to mean anger even when there isn't any....slights are passive aggression.... or even passive aggression in the form of satire in jest or venting about something unrelated to us
Aggressive behavior is aggression to her psyche no matter what form it comes in and no one has ever accused me of being demure.... that is not one of my outstanding qualities! LOL But it is the fine line that I have to walk at times (egg shells) from my perspective.
So yes...I hear you....vulnerability and her heart and expressing feelings better is the way to relating together. So many missed cues in the past that can be used now as I understand this better. On her part with me....I need to look for the way she is doing this and I'm not taking it in. As you said to me quite some time ago and not fully understanding it based on my own resistance to or learning to take a compliment ( and not always believing people as was the case in my past and waiting for the next thing to happen.... Can I borrow...can I have....can I take...will you do) in my own conditioned fear about compliments and low self esteem in the past. I'm missing my cue from her too out or my own projections. Less trust now..more habit from the past in other words....yet still just as difficult to break even when you are aware of it. That's part of my journey not hers. I'll check out the book....it sounds interesting:) Thanks again.
J
Boundaries
Submitted by Hysterical37 (not verified) on
The Role of a Good Therapist H37
Submitted by kellyj on
I've mentioned a few times on this forum that I really like my therapist. In fact, I give him credit in many ways for helping me become a better and happier person compared to my past. Better in terms of helping me be the person I already knew I was and believed I have always been by giving me advise and the tools that were missing in my tool box so to speak. Specifically, giving me the alternatives to use in moments where all you got is your old learned defaults (and defenses) and maladaptive strategies that my have worked in the past in your family, but are poor ones now when you need to do something different. If all you got is a hammer (the universal tool lol) and some duct tape for repairs, it's pretty hard to build anything that will last and it's not going to be very pretty! lol
I mentioned in another post about playing chess with a checker player and this immediately can sound like a negative, but in my situation with my wife.....my sense of her acting like a child was not wrong but only because she's still working out of the same empty tool box with only a hammer in it when she needs to do something differently with me in getting what she wants from me. The problem has never been what she wants, only in how she's going about it. And not without knowing better myself.....I was sure that there were plenty of things I could do differently to get her stop using a hammer on me when all she needed was to communicate better and let go of the reigns on control she was trying to use as a means to get me to do something.....anything!! lol That's of course how I was seeing it but the pushing and shoving that I was feeling was definitely making me feel like I was the child in her eyes and she was being the authority figure trying to control everything and questioning what ever I did with suspicion.
Very effectively, what she did was find every one of my old defaults, defenses and maladaptive strategies one by one that still needed some work or were without a good working tool to replace it. In essence.....forcing me back into an old pattern of my own that I had used in my past when put into a corner and no way out. These are only specific to me of course not everyone else. The end result of this on her end was to feel being pushed away which only incited her to hammer harder. Between the two of us....we were pushing each other away at he same time of us both trying to become closer and be counter productive the very thing we wanted.....and getting the very thing we didn't want instead.
This time however.....I did recognized what was happening even if she didn't but also knew at the same time that we needed help and I could not be the one to do this for my wife in the same way my therapist had done with me. This is where I give my therapist a great deal of credit and trust. The same that he's earned with me over years of seeing him. I love this guy! He's is very sharp. The fact that he has ADD (a touch as he says) and a son with ADHD doesn't hurt either. The two of us together share the same sense of humor and I can get him laughing most of the time even when he's trying to be serious. I think this is both frustrating and enjoyable for him at the same time. At least I'm a break in his day from the garden variety person coming in only when they are depressed. lol And to the point that he joins me and we can work off each other even when being humorous together tells me how good he is at doing his job. The two of us together work well as a team.
So yesterday when my wife was again, at the point of wanting to quit out of fear, frustration, panic and lack of control over me. I took everything I've learned in my time here on this forum and walked into our T office and took on a different role than I had ever done before. This time....I took on a role of becoming the straight man and the somewhat ignorant, naive and confused patient who really just couldn't figure out anything and had no idea what was wrong with me.....pretty much the same one who walked into his door over a decade ago while my wife did nothing but just sat back and watch the show. All I really needed to do was to be that same person I was back then and he almost immediately took his cue and gave me mine to step back and let him work. All I needed was to take his lead and jump in at the appropriate times and say exactly what I needed to that kept the flow going uninterested for almost 45 minutes without missing a beat. Many of the lines and examples were the exact ones I have written here on this forum and my T was really grinning when I pulled these out too. It was really great and I was having a lot of fun as well. The good mood and my ability to take accountability and admit my faults without defense or explanation and then adding into it the things I've learned here made it easy for me to do this time.
By the end of the session, my therapist called me out on every defense, maladaptive strategy and flaws in my thinking that I have ever covered with him over a decade in seeing him and also at the same time showed me exactly what I was missing or things I should not do......the to do's...and the don't do's....by the end of our session while my wife sat very quietly and only responded when my cue came to tell her how special she was to me when it was the appropriate time.
If someone where to see this happening and not know better....they would have thought this T was destroying this poor guys along with any self esteem he had by raking him relentlessly over the coals while he held my wife accountable for nothing while this poor guy held his wife's hand the whole time and put his arm around her for support. At the end of the session....I agreed to everything and agreed to my wife that I would do exactly what he said...no problem. I wish I had a video my performance and the whole hour as it went by. This sounds terrible as I read it....rather fake and phony but it really was exactly what I had learned I should do....not for me but for her this time. If I had to play a role at least to start with to break our cycle with the help of my therapist to take control and lead this play then that I don't mind playing this part to help get my wife to see where she fits in and get her thinking the same as my therapist did for me so long ago now. What do you do with a controlling person to make them feel comfortable at first? Take the control that they don't have and put it in the hands of a third party that they can trust to do it for them because it's the thing they don't want to do in the first place because they are afraid and vulnerable and know that the way they're doing it is not working and they a panic stricken about making a mistake. Take my wife....please!! LOL And at the end....my therapist said "let's just try this unilateral approach for now as and experiment and not bring (wife) into this quite yet for now" I chimed in "yes, I think that is a great idea" taking all responsibility for everything with no accountability or requirements made of my wife what so ever to do anything differently at all.
It was really a thing of beauty to see the change in wife after only an hour. I give my therapist full credit here in that he was the one who taught me how to play this part over many years of seeing him. The only credit I give my self here is coming up with this particular plan to play this role completely disguised from my wife in the sense that I worked off the script for the entire time and did not interject myself into the play even once during the session. It felt odd and kind of deceptive to play a role for an entire session like this but the end result was for my wife to feel like someone else could take control away from her and she could just be herself again and still feel like she was going to get her needs met at the same time. It was safe for her to be vulnerable again and I have the person I married back and you wouldn't believe all the things she admitted to me after we left our T's office....or maybe you would? LOL As I walked out of my T's office and looked back at him as he was standing at the door looking right at me (unnoticed by my wife) with this huge shit eating grin on his face and I just grinned back at him......how cool is that!! lol
Thanks again teachers ( and you H37)....you done good! lol
J