There are some dynamics/behaviors/things in my relationship I want to change. Yep, I do. Change can only be accomplished if a person wants to change.
I learned a long hard lesson that took many years to get firmly embedded in my life. . I spent years changing to please my spouse, and anyone/everyone else. I wanted to be likeable - actually, I wanted EVERYONE to like me. I thought my world would come to an end if someone did not like me. How did I develop that 'ideal''? Oh, I guess it had to do with my family dynamics and how I became a people pleaser.
I have been a recovering people pleaser for years!
Two people in a relationship have 2 different sets of priorities. Understanding them, and working together to make sure both lives are fulfilled is a good goal. Trying to insist the other person change their list to fit your own agenda - nope, not a good idea.
We cannot change where we came from. We can embrace the parts we love, discard the things we do not like, and make sure we find positive things to replace those negative things. If you just leave an empty hole, old behaviors will surely creep back in to fill that gap. It takes work to make those changes.
We cannot change other people's 'problems.' We can surely see how they affect the person, and how they affect us - but unless someone wants to address those problems, we really are powerless.
We cannot change how our partner relates to their family. They were in that relationship long before they ever knew us. If there are problems, we have to believe we didn't cause them, we can't control them, and we also can't cure them. For us, we can choose what we wish to participate in for our own comfort. This dynamic was very difficult for me - -my family thought my spouse was the next best thing to sliced bread. They embraced him, loved him, and welcomed him. On the opposite side, my spouse's family did not accept me. It was not a comfortable place for me to be. It really was an impossible situation since both sides had such different dynamics.
We get into a difficult area when we try to control how someone feels. I can choose what I do with my own feelings,
This is the area that causes a lot of problems for me. The dynamics are what I want to change. Yep, I want them to change. Disagreements go something like this,
Liz: "I am angry/upset/disappoint because such-and-such happened, or I am angry/upset/disappointed because you did such-and-such. (Such-and-Such can be anything from 'came home late' or 'left a mess' or 'did something opposite of what we both discussed and made an agreement about.')
In my current life, things feel very edgy when I state an issue, a feeling, a problem and I am met with things like "I did not." "You are exagerating." "That's not true." "I did too." Then upon further discussion to work out the details, it gets further complicated with my paradigm, and there is further disagreement "That's not what I said." "When did I say that?"
I really do not want to have my view adjusted. I really do not want to feel dismissed. I really do not want to feel there is something wrong with how I feel! I really do not want to be told that my view - compared to anyone/everyone is so off kilter . . .or just plain wrong.
I have been choosing for quite a while to just back out of disagreements that turn into these types of power struggles. I will not be backed into a corner. I will not change or adjust my feelings so my spouse won't be angry. I will not feel manipulated by angry words that get tossed at me inferring I think I know better than everyone. No, in fact I do not. But I do know about me. My hopes and dreams and likes and dislikes. And what is important and valuable to me. And what will make me happy and what will not. I have a lot of successful relationships. I have some people who were in my life that I have chosen to limit my exposure to - because it takes too much work and effort to be in a relationship with them. They are too needy. They suck the life out of me when I try to spend time with them. Or, they expect things out of me that I am not willing to give. These are choices. Made by me, with careful thought about my own well being.
I can honestly say I would love to have a good relationship with my spouse. I would love to renegotiate the structure of our relationship. I have changed a whole honkin' lot over the past 20 years. The dynamics of our relationship needs to be adjusted to get it to a comfortable fit. I have been unable to acquire that in my marriage. It is a big conundrum to have joy with my friends, joy at school, joy in my solitude, joy in just about every area of my life, except with my spouse.
Last night I agreed to enter into the most hopeful discussion with my spouse that we have shared in a long time. I did feel he wanted to hear me. And then it started to turn very sour. And I was unable to steer it back onto the tracks. And then it ended with him in an abrupt emotional explosion.
It was really the saddest thing that has happened in a long time. Not horrible. Not angry. Just sad. That situation last night was sad. My life is not sad. What happened last night, truly sad.
Sincerely,
Liz
End of the evening serious discussions
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
I loved that line that you have changed a whole honkin' lot in the last couple decades. It sure sounds like it to me. You go, girl : )
About that conversation in the evening that began in good communication and then it,got off track despite your efforts and it got angry. Why do you think it veered off track on his side? You'll know what you intended, felt and said, so I'll ask, what do you think happened at his end?
I have a lot to learn about having conversations about our relationship with my husband. Our absolute worst time, judging from our track record, for having a discussion of something about which we disagree, or for me asking for something from him is the end of the evening. Mine has a much faster flashpoint then, and why I dont know, he quickly jumps to conclusions, all negative, at the end of the evening. Discussions in the daytime are often better. Discard that if it has nothing to do with the two of you. My guess at present is that my husband's ADHD really wears him out by the end of the day. And I also think about his blood sugar I'm not in great shape myself, if I'm tired.
How's his ability to stay in listening mode?
A discovery of sorts
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
NowOrNever,
Something I realized about last night - so very many areas we struggle in of our life are but a symptom of the communication issues. I have a glimmer of intuitiveness that we may be on to something. . . . . . . .
I will respond more fully later. I have classes tomorrow, and need to get myself to bed.
Very truly,
Liz
Bingo!
Submitted by kellyj on
"....a symptom of the communication issues. " I'll leave it right there.
J
Ah...But a Minute Here...What About the Turning Point? Liz
Submitted by kellyj on
I'm seeing this (in part)....a little differently here...possibly? Without assuming anything or reading into this any more?
Last night I agreed to enter into the most hopeful discussion with my spouse that we have shared in a long time. I did feel he wanted to hear me. And then it started to turn very sour. And I was unable to steer it back onto the tracks. And then it ended with him in an abrupt emotional explosion.
It was really the saddest thing that has happened in a long time. Not horrible. Not angry. Just sad.
It sounds like it started out Okay...(your communication with him). As you said this....he was ready or appeared willing and it started out fine and then at some point....it turned south and then it got derailed and went down hill....both of you not just him?
As you said it....it ended with him exploding and getting angry....but not until a certain "turning point" as I am reading into this. The reason why I'm saying this....is this is the exact same scenario that I have been in before many times with my wife and it never seemed to get better....
Until I found out where that turning point was and was willing to stop and walk away and call it good and go no further for the time being. This I'm saying....you can do even if your H does nothing different. And even if you didn't get to say everything you wanted to say and it stopped before you got to say it. The need to express your emotions completely or fully all at one time in one sitting is the problem.(for me it is?) If you can read the situation...and know when to stop.....it seems you were successful up to that point and IF you took that as a victory instead of as a defeat and see it that way.....you can use this to your advantage for the next time around. It takes many, many times like this to finally get past them. MANY! If you got all your eggs into one basket like this....you'll see it as that and not keep trying.
If you don't take the fact that you got derailed (your part)....and look at everything that was done right up to that point. If you stop and don't continue....take that and use it. Then come back again and try it again....over and over and over....each time...you will get a little further...one step at a time. By doing this....you eliminate the explosion on his end....and you got some success out of it and learn something new each time you do it.
If you can only see this as a complete failure and all hope is lost since you didn't get everything you wanted out of this ONE attempt....you will see it as a complete failure and are likely not to go back and try it again another time.
This is exactly what my wife and I were doing.....and this is exactly what I did to get past this and find a different way to get there. And it worked and we moved past this and learned how "not to do it again."
The most important thing you said in all of this was right here.... And I was unable to steer it back onto the tracks. This is why you failed I think. When it starts to turn sour or go south...there is NO steering it back on track. This is where it stops right there instead. That's the turning point I was talking about. Take everything UP TO....the turning point as a major success...and call it good for the night right there....even if you never got what you wanted to say out or got to express what you were really feeling in it's entirety....all at once.
Better to lose the battle...and win the war. Live today....to fight again another day and keep yourself intact. It's the frustration and his explosion and walking away from that experience that makes you sad and feels like there is no hope. Back up to the point where things started to go wrong...and don't keep going and live with that experience instead....without the bad parts to remember it by?
One more thing to consider when doing this. If you walk away in a huff....that does no good. Stopping means....politely and in a controlled manner....suggesting (somewhat assertively) that this is where it needs to end and say so in your own words so you don't leave him there just hanging. If you need to stop talking yourself...and letting him carry on for a bit in order to do this....just sit and listen instead and don't do anything until you get a chance to end it by acknowledging what he said (whether you agree with it or not....probably not but DON'T say that!!) and then end it that way instead. I think this is how you can work it and not repeat the same problem over and over again. Keep your thoughts to yourself.....and save them for a different attempt. I think you will find....you will get further each time until one day...you will finally get it all out at once without incident? Possibly. I'm just relating how it worked for my wife and I so I speaking from experience here?
J
I know I cannot steer a 'couple' all on my own.
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
J,
How I am sorting this all through:
it turned south and then it got derailed and went down hill....both of you not just him?
I can speak for my part - I think I got a bit excited - too excited - and jumped the gun.
Until I found out where that turning point was and was willing to stop and walk away . . . . you can do even if your H does nothing different.
I think this what I tried to accomplish . . however, it was not until I increased the speed at which the conversation was going. I saw an opening and tried to do too much in a short widow of opportunity.
And even if you didn't get to say everything you wanted to say and it stopped before you got to say it.
Yes, I made some judgment errors. He wanted to ask some questions, and share some insights he had gotten. I jumped the conversation into 5th gear. Even though I was answering his questions, I could have seen it was getting to be too much, and just said, "Let's just put this conversation on hold, right here on a good note. We can pick it up again tomorrow, or another day."
The need to express your emotions completely or fully all at one time in one sitting is the problem.
Something to work on for me. LOL, I clearly see I had a listening ear and I just wanted to take advantage of the opportunity.
If you can read the situation...and know when to stop.....it seems you were successful up to that point and IF you took that as a victory instead of as a defeat and see it that way.....you can use this to your advantage for the next time around.
I surely will hold on to the positive that I felt. I can believe if it happened once, it can happen again.
If you walk away in a huff....that does no good: This is not the way it happened. . . . . this is:.Stopping means.......suggesting (somewhat assertively) that this is where it needs to end and say so in your own words
I posted "The Things We wished We understood." in dvance's thread "oh the illogic", and included a story about our daughter's wedding, which took place in August of 2013. 1. My spouse wanted me to know that he - - -well, he got it. He could understand what I was saying.
In September in 2014, my hopes to 'try again' at working through a project with my spouse by putting up a fence in our yard ended very painfully for me, when he canceled the installation. 2. 1. My spouse wanted me to know that he could understand what I was saying. 3. And also asked what we needed to do to fix it.
So you may ask "Why in the Sam Hill isn't Liz jumping up and down with joy?" She has some thick wall of defenses protecting her. Vulnerability has rpven to equal a foolish painful choice. Blind hope has proven to collapse into naivety.
4. My spouse asked if I know what it like to have all the fingers pointed at me. . .all the time? And my answer was "Why yes. Indeed. Yes I do." I did that very thing for a long time. I developed a bad pattern after I got married - of always taking the blame for everything. which allowed fingers to be pointed at me, as I also pointed them at myself. I carried the weight around of all our marital problems. All. I allowed myself to be the scapegoat, even long after my problems were conquered. Everything thing was tied back to my eating disorders, or my growing up in an alcoholic home, or my poor self esteem.
And then one day, I knew it was THE day. I had all I could stand, and I wasn't taking it anymore. Period.
And so I CHOOSE to stand firm. I choose to have a kind heart. But, I remain firm. Not unbending, just unyielding. And I have shared with my spouse, that for the time being - until my heart has time to soften, by not having my hopes trashed yet again, he will indeed have to carry the lion's share. If he chooses. I cannot make mold or shape him into anything. He can choose to learn new skills if he chooses.
Very truly,
Liz
Liz...I Can't Tell You How Hard....
Submitted by kellyj on
it is for me to do what I just told you to do!!! That needing to be heard and holding my thoughts until next time. Hoooeeeeyyy! It takes an act of God for me to do that but....I found it was the only way. Most of those attempts I was talking about....was me failing to do so! lol
But I found....that my wife finally admitted to me....she wasn't really listening in the first place. Once I hit her comfort zone edge....it was all down hill from there. Once she jumped the tracks and started moving in another direction....there was just no going back....until next time.
However...by stopping before that happened....she would come back later on her own and say something like...."I'm sorry we have so much trouble communicating." This was her thinking about it.
We've been able to actually talk about these things now....and most of that has to do with her believing me. Before when she didn't believe me....she would just tune out and go with what ever she was thinking which I have come to find out now....what she was thinking was wrong. It took me maybe a hundred times of repeating the same things and not backing down and never straying or varying from the issue....to finally get her to believe me but....it also took her reading up on some of the things I was saying ( to verify)...before she would. I think that was the defining moment....when she read the same things from another source....that she really started to listen. Taking Melissa's class and hearing it from her....also proved that she could start trusting that I wasn't just making it all up. lol
Saying it 100 times myself before that...proved not to be a waste of time:)
J
What I see and how it affects me
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
J,
I know when I see that glimmer of hope of understanding in my spouse's eyes, it causes my heart to try to flood back, full force. It wants to, but wisdom prevails. This has been a difficult journey. I am not so naive, not so quick to base everything on words spoken, rather waiting to see that actions support those words.
I respond to things in my own environment. I understand what is happening when I see my spouse's anxiety level rise. I now clearly understand that my previous attempts to calm his anxiety were not my place, not my job, Sure, everyone has a time or two in their life when they do something just because they want to make someone happy - they choose someone else over themselves. Not so good when it becomes a full time vocation of giving in. I will work for quite a long while, but sustaining it forever starts to get very unpleasant. My putting his needs always first, giving them always precedence over mine, choosing to bend and sway and doubt my own resolve rather than remain steadfast in my hopes and dreams and desires - that was not wisdom. Now, Liz has wisdom.
Ah, when wisdom came to me, it was a thing of beauty.
This gal needs more than lip service. I need follow-up. I need to feel secure.
My spouse reiterated the other night something I have always know about him - he does not like to be told what to do.
There is balance that needs to be achieved in everything in our lives. There is a huge difference between being told what to do and accepting that someone, who has your best interest in their heart, has a solution that they clearly know will bring about harmony. Even if a person is unable to see something at the moment, sometimes they need to trust that someone who loves them will hold on to that clarity for them, until such a time as they can see it for themselves.
Sincerely,
Liz
Liz...I Really Can Empathize With You
Submitted by kellyj on
I can see you through the eyes of my wife now. I can see how much she reacts and responds to the things in her environment and how that affects her. This is where....I do not need to understand. What I need to do is accept it....and use that to know how difficult it is for her to manage and just be Okay living with me sometimes.
I also know how difficult to change things when the die has been cast so to speak. My situation ...is different than yours. I had a head start right from the get go and talked about these things ahead of time....with a great deal of awareness under my belt already. My battle has been...not allowing the die to be cast in the first place and that puts me at an extreme advantage over you. In one respect....I knew these things for myself already and even without assuming that my wife was anywhere near to knowing what I knew.....it still didn't give me any ability to understand her and what she goes through when things are affecting her and she is not able to explain them to me in the same way I can do this with her. That left us right where we are....maybe a head start...but that's about it. The rest I've had to learn as I go and try and figure the same things I learned for myself.....but now for another person? I can't read minds any more than you can and that makes it difficult if the other person doesn't know themselves?
How can I say this well....without sounding judgmental towards your H here? I have my own personal issues when it comes to being in a situation where the other person appears not to know...but they cannot explain it to you either? In that respect.....this is almost the reverse of what you....and many people here are facing on this forum. Why do you think I can be here and contribute the way I do. I wasn't like this in the past.....but I am now? It goes both ways without saying it and it can be an either / or and that has nothing to do with having ADHD or not?
"He doesn't like to be told what to do." One might respond to that by saying...."no one does." I don't like it either but....I could write a novel on that in terms of how that translate into having ADHD. If that's all he can say.....that novel is not getting said. It tells you nothing really? Nothing that you don't already know?
There are so many things underneath his statement that I could probably spend a good deal of time....detailing and referencing and giving you a better understanding base on myself and all that I know.
But truth be told.....you aren't dealing with me. Your dealing with him....and that's all that really matters. The specifics of how he got there and why.....are peculiar to the only person that matters. In this case....it's him...not anyone else.
To say I'm not dealing with the same things or don't feel the same way many times is not true. Any time you are on the side of this that you are on....it will be very much the same all things said and done. I do know what it is like to get your hopes and have them dashed when thinking that he is ready to listen or hear you.....and then to find yourself right back to where you started and start all over again. That's an utterly defeating experience and in that much....I can empathize. Even now as I'm saying this with a great deal more optimism due to our successes.....I can feel the tension and the "vibes" coming from my wife that tells me.....we are still not out of the woods and not to hang my hat on my laurels just yet.
This is where....I just keep plugging and not let that derail me even if she falters a bit. I do it too....but it in a completely different way.
Having said that and for your sake in hoping the die can be modified a bit.....that "I don't like to be told what to do" (which is still there in me) has changed to...."I don't like it....but I need to hear, allow it, not react to it and and get over it because I know the reason why it happens and that reason is not about me or the person on the other side of the coin. When I finally put 2 + 2 together....is when that finally happened.
That's the only part....that you cannot make anyone do unless they want to and that's where you are wise to not keep trying to.
I will say this on your H's behalf. For quite a while....if I even sneezed wrong...my wife would start to ramp up and react...as if I was about to do something that I wasn't going to do. In her frantic effort to try and control this....she was jumping the gun and seeing things that were not actually happening. I can't tell you how maddening and frustrating it is when someone does this and they aren't reading the situation correctly and you just sneezed instead:)
J
A Second Thought Here
Submitted by kellyj on
When my wife makes statements like "I don't like to be told what to do"....which is not one of the ones she says. None the less....those singular statements when my wife says them....I have come to learn....what she is saying is. "Don't do that." And that's as far as it goes in here thinking.
I don't like it......SO THEREFORE.......DON'T DO IT! But that's not what she says but as she hears herself saying it....she's saying it and I should know that? But even knowing that....it still doesn't connect Don't Do it....to what is really happening? And if it isn't possible for you not do "Don't Do It" and you do it anyway because you are left with no other choice....what other options do you have? If you can't talk about why you can't do it....or extenuating circumstance....or that he's got a Tarantula crawling on his back and you say...Don't Move!.......
And the response is...."I don't like being told what to do!" What other options do you have? "0"
This is exactly the EXACT same thing that happens with my wife. She's not saying...."Don't Do IT".....but she is....an the expectation (unspoken as well)...is that you hear and understand and then will just adhere to it all.....as if that was made perfectly clear. But of course....this is not always possible either. Not putting 2 + 2 together....is not understanding any of this. " I want what I want when I want it and you should know that's always the case with NO exceptions! " That's not how the world works and that is simply not possible. That always leaves you with 0 options and 0 options....is exactly that.... which means....there is nothing you can do if that's the case?
This is not rational or logical or makes any sense. But all you really need to know....is what that means when you hear it to know....this is what is actually being said. At least that gives you a place to start....all things considered. At least that's my interpretation based solely on my experience with my wife.
J
To clarify a thought
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
Liz.....You're Not the Cause
Submitted by kellyj on
You aren't the cause if that's what you meant by "putting the Kabosh on what he thinks it is"...if that's what he thinks?
And I was talking about the same thing when I was referring to " I don't like to be told what to do." Like I was saying to Delphine about the same thing. That thinking...goes all the way back to my childhood and has been there ever since.
ADHD is the cause of (the symptom)....feeling held back, restrained and hemmed in by rules or by authority and not feeling like you can control that feeling any other way if you can't manage it unfettered by other people requiring you to do things in certain ways and where "I don't like to be told what to do" comes from in your thinking.....all the way back to the first time you open your eyes and become aware of yourself in the world. Like......3 years old?
Anxiety is the physiological (response)......when you are fighting against that feeling of having to follow what others tell you to do and you don't have the freedom any more to manage it free of anything else getting in your way. It's from the stress reaction in your mind to having to over compensate for having ADHD.......executive functioning difficulties and the extra exertion it takes to overcompensate for it. This is what Adderall does for you. It gives you the boost you need that makes this not so difficult. ( Is he on stimulant meds? It made a world of difference for me. You cannot do this alone in the same way without it for some. I'm one of those people. )
You are the (Response) to that......which just add one more thing to the list of things that increases this physiologic chemical response or decline in his brain function which increase the taxation level to your system and lowers his capacity level in order to maintain the same level as before.
Symptom / Response / Response....1 , 2 , 3 Guess what? Your the third position and the last one in the chain. YOU....are not what causes this. Any argument he could make otherwise....is a foolish one on his part and this is what he simply does not understand.
This is what the Denial....is all about. Take it from someone who knows. This is why I said....I could write a novel on what "I don't like to be told what to do"...and then...."Don't do that" as I was referring to my wifes issues and her not seeing the source and the chain of events within her as well. And for the same reason....she see's me as the cause for her anxiety. I'm not. I only make it worse. 1 , 2 , 3
I sit in that third seat just like you. You said he thinks he's not in denial? I beg to differ. I've been thinking/feeling that since I was 3 years old but I see it for what it is......an illusion..... a phantom or specter that doesn't exist. That is....in the external world.
What does exist and is real....is the physiological chain reaction due to ADHD.
J
PS....I borrowed the symptom response response from Melissa course but that's not how she was referencing it. I believe it fits what is actually happening inside us with ADHD and then gets carried forward. Working backwards from the problem....it's still the same chain reaction that gets extended forward in the same way....at least that's my take on it. This is not how Melissa presented it exactly....I just went a step beyond that based on myself and what I see happening. I'm my own eye witness in this case.
Newton's 1rst Law of Thermodynamics states that "energy cannot be created, nor destroyed. It can only be transformed from one form to another"
Newtons 3rd Law.....For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Try arguing against that one? I Double Dare you! (not you Liz )
Oh Hello! J
Submitted by Zapp10 on
Thank you for further explanation of ADD. It helps ME to better understand how I do and don't help. Now....I am going to carve your post in stone and whack my H over the head with it.....it may take a few "thumps" but I am thinking/ hoping I will get his attention before serious bodily injury occurs......
At present, My H is receptive to your insight to ADD.
Zapp....Do You Own....
Submitted by kellyj on
one of those big cartoon mallets I was talking about? "Bonk!!" meep meep....shhhoooooo! lol :)
J
Hello NowOrNever and J
Submitted by ADH9er on
-I am motivated to interject a few things here.
-I am delighted that my spouse received my invitation to the above described conversation.
-I want to be cautious to not harm this optimism.
-I come here to answer the questions asked with regard to how I (the spouse) felt / thought.
-My desire, with asking my spouse “would you be willing to describe to me, your recent posts so they are not misconstrued by my filters?” ( In particular Sun. 04/24/16)
? Why I veered off track ?
For a couple of reasons: I employed a great deal of humility and vulnerability to sincerely apologize for the wedding soda hiccup, and for stopping the installation of a privacy fence to put my stuff behind to create a clean appearance, and stating my desire to fix it. As I stated above, having my spouse receive them is significantly precious, and right behind that reception came (in my minds eye), the oh so familiar, arms length, that's nice butt...forgiveness or elation or perceivable joy or letting go, is not going to happen just yet. This type of interaction gives rise to my angst to ‘Until such time that Tom…’
Also: things then went to how my taking on responsibility for getting the dishes done was not a ‘negotiated’ chore, I just decided to do them. Again, to my receptors - nice butt.
The infamous “I don’t like being told what to do” slipped off my agitated tongue about then.
The rest leading up to my angry snort is a blur... J, your comments on the ‘Turning Point’ have brought me to see that I can and will pursue developing the keys you shared, for myself, with the hope that it will make being near me less work. Thank You.
The Phantom
Submitted by kellyj on
Hi ADH9er,
I so glad you responded and I want to say that it takes a lot of courage to come forward and enter into this discussion.
Before I say anything else....my intentions here are not to take sides or anything close to that. I also want you to know that in no way is the title of my comment referring to you in any way....or criticize anything you said here? Your feelings are your own and you have the right to feel anyway you feel at any given time.
The reason for the title is that I see the Phantom in your comment and the reason why I brought this up at all ...is to point my finger directly at the "Phantom" (my new made up name here).....and not you in anyway.
What I said previously about the phantom....that it doesn't exist and is just an illusion. He's culprit any time I go off course....and it's always due to my phantom taking over and getting in the middle between my wife and I..... in the moment.......always. An important point to make here.
When those communications between the two of us ....involve trying to express my emotions and feelings..... as I'm seeing it....he's the culprit....not you or I. He's an emotional hijacker...or emotional terrorist as far as I'm concerned and he's the one doing most of the talking not me when I get myself into trouble.
As I see myself doing the exact same things as you.....it's easy to see them when someone else is doing them too. Actually...it's easier to see them when someone else is doing them once you can see the "Phantom" inside yourself. I can't actually see it......but I can picture it in my mind by using my imagination. Again...that's because it doesn't exist and is invisible for that reason alone. That's what makes it so hard to spot especially when you're the one who's being hijacked by it.
Don't get confused over an imaginary image in your head....with what is really or going on.... on the outside of you in the external world. What's going on on the outside...is always in the moment and never in the past...that's a clue for you right there. That will tell you who's doing the talking. The past is the phantom talking....the present is right now this very second as you are reading this sitting where ever you are sitting.
I'm pointing directly at something here so bear with me? I have trouble describing it myself sometimes but.....I came up with that image of a specter or phantom...so I figure I'll run with it for now. lol
As I was reading what you said...I thought of a way to describe this in a way.... that might make better sense if I can do this well? This is that image I was talking about......
Picture those old black and white movies with with scenes depicting a person with that little good guy...and the bad guy....standing on either shoulder of the real person sitting in the room. And all three of them are having a debate or argument about what the "real" person should do. This is a fantasy mind you and has nothing to do with ethics or morals as I an describing it....sometimes you see the devil on one side...and an angel on the other in this situation and I want to avoid that image entirely because that has nothing to do with what I'm saying for the moment.
Now...take away one of those characters....and it's just the real person....and one of those little imaginary characters and you instead. That little character is the phantom I'm talking about....and he's the one doing the talking inside your head but....you don't actually know it when it's happening. That's the invisible part that is so hard to find since....it doesn't really exist. If you got that running commentary going on inside your head all of the time....you're having that conversation with someone aren't you? Who are you talking to when you talk to yourself anyway? You can do this with no one there....or......you can do this while someone IS in the room with you and that's the problem. That's the phantom talking not you if you are not paying attention or know what to look for?
If you can do this when someone is not there in the room with you that's how you know it exists. If you ask yourself...who am I talking to when I'm all alone. That's a good place to start looking I think?
What I said about the phantom always talking about the past? Look at what you said here and see if you don't see it? Mostly....you are referencing something that happened in the past in the entire comment but especially...what you said here points to this the most.....
The infamous “I don’t like being told what to do” slipped off my agitated tongue about then....... The rest leading up to my angry snort is a blur...
This....I absolutely believe you when you say this. The blur...the slip....the phantom was doing all the talking and that's why it's a blur. It's not you talking....it something else or if it wasn't....you'd remember it and it wouldn't be a blur. And that slip of the tongue ( Freudian slip? )....that blurted out "i don't like to be told what to do?" bingo. that's the invisible voice having a conversation with yourself but your speaking it out loud to the person in front of you...( the little character sitting on your shoulder having a discussion with you) He's the hijacker and emotional terrorist...not the person in front of you.
See the person in front of you. Look into her eyes. Feel her skin and touch her face. See her....talk to her and feel what she is feeling and forget about the little M%&$r F%$&er sitting on your shoulder trying to intervene between the two of you. He's defensive, irritable and always in living in the past. The person in front of you is real and is happening right now this very minute. If the hijacker is doing the talking....you're serving a different master.
He's a M%&^er F$#^er...get him out of there!!! lol ( speaking for myself here and my phantom in my colorful reference...you can call him anything you want! lol)
Forget about the past....and stop thinking about the future.....be right here and now and talk to the person without past tense or future tense involved in any way. See if you can do just that for a start and I think you will find how difficult this is to do. That's a good sign if you can recognize it by trying to eliminate the phantom completely and talk in the present tense only. Give it a try and see what happens?
The thing is....you can't defend yourself if you can't speak of the past. That's the point. And that's the most important aspect of doing this. If you can't defend or speak from the past....what other options do you have?
J
I think I'll name him 'gollum'
Submitted by ADH9er on
Back when I was 53- ( I'm doing it already ! Lol ) I said to Dr Michael Manos @ the Cleve Clinic from whom I received my Official Diagnosis, "My demons and her (spouse),demons sure know how to party". He said was 'astute' in my observation.
Now to the present, Thanks and I will begin formulating my resistance strategy.
with hope, ADH9er
You're Right On Track Here
Submitted by kellyj on
Speaking to you and NowOrNever in responding to her insight as well. The same insight I'm saying to you just from a different perspective...but Gollum is a lot closer to this than you might even realize. I've mentioned this in the past on occasion....but my T and I have used the Lord of the Rings as a perfect tool to discuss this together. I remember as he put it..."It's literally....the perfect story and amazingly well crafted with all the Archetypes represented in unison. It's almost that you know the characters because they are so real. The reason for this is that Tolkein...based his story and the character off these very same archetypical behaviors and the characters to go along with each one. Each one represents a part of being human in some way and Gollum is a very interesting charactor in that respect. Gollum literally respresets the corrupted version of a different charactor. As you recall....he started out as a Hobbit...and then turned into a different creature. The real charactor....(the Hobbit) was replaced by greed, lust, paranoia, and fear of losing his precious. Yet....at times when in doubt....he became split in two. The two sides battling it out over which way to go and what to do? And the ring...represented the power of the specter...(Sauron) which represent evil. All the deadly sins of evil were speaking through the ring and into Gollums head. He served that master which was the specter of evil through the ring and that had total control of him.
This was no accident in how Tolkein designed these characters since they all represent a part in all of us that we can identify with and recognize. That's what the Archetypal characters are....one of the many characters and behaviors that live within all of us. To not be this way...would not be human. This is perfectly illustrated by each non-human creature in the story and Gollums self doubt and battle within himself was really between the true self...and the false self in his reflection which was controlled by the evil specter Sauron.
But as I was saying this....you are partially correct in thinking that you were doing it again as you said. That's what makes this so difficult sometimes in writing to other people while they are not in person or in front of you. It's difficult to mirror when people are reflecting, getting their true thoughts out while they have emotions and feelings that are based on someone or somewhere else at the same time. That's what we've got here and it's only a slice of what it is really like when you are doing this in person. So much of the time....you are controlling what you say and not speaking in the same way you would do in person saying the same thing since you'd know who you were talking too and know a lot more about them. I can never be sure how I come across and if anyone even understands me sometimes since....I'm just putting down my thoughts without the direct feedback that you would have in the moment while doing this live and in person. That's a whole different ball of wax.
I write down something based on how I feel at the time....and later, I come back and see what someone else wrote. The moment I wrote it is gone....I might feel entirely different the next time I sit down and write the same thing and that's going to come out differently each time I do. This makes mirroring....especially difficult as I have come to realize by doing it.
When you are in front of someone....and they require an answer or to know something and they are expressing their feelings to you...you've got to sort out your feelings at the same time as you are trying to determine theirs. As soon as you don't agree on how you feel about something...it makes it especially hard to maintain your own feelings...in service of their when you don't feel the same way? This is all happening at the same time and you don't get to come back later after you've thought about it....or .....sometimes it feels that way. You don't have to decide right at that very moment and you really can stop and think about it and come back later. You do have that permission as long as you give it to yourself.
But if the hijacker is in control...( Gollums refelction in the pool )...he won't wait to think about it...he's got his own agenda in mind and that's the one that takes over and does the talking for you. Fear, paranoia, bad memories of the past and the distrust (self doubt and insecurity) are the only things that come out of your mouth during those moments and then later....you could kick yourself for saying all those things after you had a chance to think about it. Putting a lid on all those voices while you are trying to do this....is a very difficult thing to do sometimes. Sometimes...it's almost ( if not ) impossible to do? What's the answer there? Wait...and come back later and don't do it right then. That's the turning point to recognize and there's nothing wrong with either you or her saying " give me some time to think about this please because what I might say right now is not going to come out right if I do. Give me a moment...or a few...or maybe tomorrow...will you please. But you need to communicate this...and not just react and go with your emotions if they are getting the better of you."
I see this in my wife all the time and she reacts...instead of thinks in the moment.
And the ADHD specter is a little different still than what NowOrNever was saying for herslef even.
That chain reaction I was talking about. That has little to do with the real past as you know it. It has more to do with a feeling that is not really connected to anything real or tangible. That feeling is cause by the reaction inside you...and the emotions that come from that are deceived into thinking it HAS to do with soemthing external. It can be anything not just your wife. In respect to Gollum's reflection....I think this is a perfect analogy. You cannot believe anything that feeling is telling you and you have to keep on reminding yourself constantly...that this feeling is related directly to having ADHD and nothing else. It has nothing to do with anyone else either. It's only triggered by others or brought on by the stress and intensity of trying to manage this feeling...and not react instantly with the emotions that go along with that feeling.
Based on that...the symptom ...response...response for us....is more directly associated with....(the pysiological chain reaction)....the reaction to the reaction....and the emotion to the reaction. Which means....your just reacting not thinking and that's why everything is a blurr.
That's the ADHD phantom in particular. Liz has mentioned the afternoon nasties before...and this is exactly what is happening. Those "nasties" as she observes..are just reactions to a feeling. But look at the effect this has on her and how she describes it. Nasty.
I know what those are and I recognize them too. This is one place I have found that I can control and control very well now without a problem. Those nasty feelings inside me...do not cuase me to be nasty outside as well. I keep it in control and then do something about it instead of just blindly going full steam ahead and ignoring it and being nasty all over the place while around others at the same time. I can totally control that now with rare exception. This is what you can do ...and once you can do it one place.....you find you can do it in another. The more you work at it....the better you become in controlling it. This is exactly what Liz wants but to a certain degree......I can't do this perfectly 100% of the time....but doing it 95% less than I do it before...leaves 5% of the time...instead of 100% of the time.
I think 5% of the time...is where you start joining the rest of the world and everyone in it...and that's an acceptable level by most peoples standards. I don't think most people expect perfection....except my wife when it comes to her issues which have control of her in the very same way. She has held herself to a standard that even she can't manage and when she doesn't...she looks pretty hypocritical and loses a lot of credibility. But at the same time...I see this in her I see what has control over her.
In that respect....I see someone else inside her doing this too her. In her case...she still answering to the unreasonable expectations put upon her by her unreasonable mother and she is still living as if...her mother is still there demanding her to do so. That's her specter...not mine...but I can cut her some slack because I know....I've been there before and getting rid of those voices from the past telling you what to do...is easier said than done even when you know all of this. It takes a dedicated effort and some determination to find those demons and stop chasing the dragons tail.
But those ADHD feelings...are not attached to anyone real. They are directly attached to a feeling that is caused by ADHD alone. This is the feeling...you need to hunt down and find because it's always been there and always will and you need to route it out and learn how to control it and not react. That is our burden and challenge to do since by not doing it....we have a negative impact on others and this is exactly what everyone is screaming at us to make that stop. It's just one of the (9?) areas of executive function that is effected by having ADHD.
That means.... getting to know those feelings and identify each one so you can stop them dead in their tracks and before they hijack you into doing things and being the person....that is not you and you don't want to be.
On top of it....we've got all the other ones to deal with too. The same ones that NowOrNever was talking about for herself. We have those to deal with too....on top of it.
How sweet it is! lol
J
Calm confidence almost eluded me today. Huzzah, I prevailed.
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
ADHD9er,
I am sure you remember, I did not like jokingly being referred to as your 'first wife.' It had a humorous meaning for you. It was a fun joke to you. It was not funny to me.
You enjoy the song "Broken Together." It means something to you. It feels different to me. I have broken through the glass ceiling of always thinking there is something wrong with me. It can be your song. It is not mine.
Dr. Manos may have said your idea was astute. It offends me. You can choose to refer to the things, that cause bumps and hiccups in our ability to communicate well. as demons. I do not like it. I fought long and hard to get to where I am today.
Even my own character flaws I refuse to label as evil. Some of them still annoy me - yet they make me uniquely Liz. As we submit to God and resist the devil, we have nothing to fear. “The one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world” (1 John 4:4).
I am a Child of the King. The Holy Spirit resides in the heart of the believer in Christ
Satan and his demons now look to destroy the work of God and deceive anyone they can. Christ has “disarmed the powers and authorities,” and He has “made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross”
I have this comfortable confidence in who I am, where I have traveled, and where I am headed. I am open to suggestions about things I have not thought about in previous situations.. I am open to take ideas and percolate on them for a while to see if they will be useful to me.
My day to day living in no longer driven by guilt, or shame, or feeling I am defective.
The Holy Spirit lives within my heart and soul. I can choose well :) You are responsible for your actions. Liz is responsible for hers.
The tactic of looking at things as 'we only are where we are at because our demons play against each other ' well, I am sorry, as I do not want to do that anymore.
We both have parts of us that hope to learn to co-exist together.
With love, and hope,
Liz.
Let's clear some things up
Submitted by ADH9er on
I'm So Exhausted,
-Yes I remember. That is precisely why, out of respect for your feelings, I Have not made that reference for a very long time. To you it is a not funny joke ~ to me it was and is a clever-off the wall-endearment derived from the Biblical reference to 'The Wife of your Youth' I won't bring it up again if you don't.
-Yes I hold the sentiment of the song Broken Together close to my heart ~ No I do not demand, expect, or need it to hold meaning to you. Nor do I harbor resentment that you don't. What I do have and will continue to believe is that no human is perfect, we all come from imperfect parents,you and I are imperfect parents, our children carry the effect of not only the Nurturing and Unconditional Love we have showed them, they also carry the hurt of our discord. In turn they carry all their life experiences into their relationships.
-To Be Very Clear - not once since I made the statement to Dr. Manos, have I implied that anything either of us bring to this relationship is evil. Let's settle this right now by replacing the word demons with one that will better suit the context for which I intended from the beginning - how about Baggage or Emotional Neglect or Childhood Trauma or Effects of being raised in a Perpetually Angry or Alcoholic or Depressed Home. I am open for suggestions. Liz, I see Jesus in you, I have since the day we met.
-and finally, We wrestle with relating in part, because of what we carry from our upbringing *and Tom's ADHD*
With perseverance and love,
ADH9er
.,
Love and marriage
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
ADH9er,
I have a problem with what you have laid as a foundation. I have broken through the glass ceiling of the bondage my upbringing/baggage had in negative terms on my life. My baggage has been open and unpacked. Lessons have been kept, un-needed anger and hostility and pain have been thrown away. I do resent suggestions that I am at the same mental place where I was when all that garbage ruled my life. I am not. Those changes do cause major discord as the unhealthy way I used to do anything, so you would like me, is no longer a weight that pulls me into despair.
I wrestle with our relationship because I no longer want to live in the emotionally unhealthy aspects. I hope to discover we can deal with things in an emotionally healthy way.
Our children grew up in a wonderful home. Our real discourse started 25 years into our marriage, when they were close to adulthood. We gave them a wonderful foundation of self-esteem. I made very concerted efforts to raise them up into strong, wonderful young people. I give them much credit, and have confidence they will continue to fly! I am so proud of them.
I found ways to deal with my Dad's alcoholism, I found ways to escape the bondage of anorexia and bulimia, I found ways to uncover my own self-esteem, I like who I am. I am at peace and am enjoying college.
I see that my growth and changes have upset the fruit-basket of how our marriage worked.
I understand you feel as I am keeping you at arms length. For my own emotional well being, I am rather staying at arm's length. This was not an isolated experience. Patterns need to be changed. I am not so willing to put my heart out there for another disappointment. The choice does need to be yours. It took a long time for me to feel comfortable to try again, and walk through the couple's work to have that fence put up. It was crashed to smithereens with one phone call. Following along behind it, it has taken aver 2 years to feel as though I was heard. In my humanness, in my own defense, I am not so willing to put on the rose colored glasses, and believe, once again, that what you say is what you will do. Yes, you can choose to put your money where your mouth is, or you can choose to be sad that one word did not erase a few years of frustration. I see that you are working on yourself. I give you kudos. It will take time for my heart to have confidence in changes.
With love and hope,
Liz
Good morning, ADH9er
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Thank you for your post. I've taken some time rereading it, and rereading this whole thread. What you wrote comes across as you telling the truth of your feelings during that conversation. Both of you very strongly wanted to have a good conversation.
I hope you trust Liz's account of her feelings and thoughts more than you trust what you think or fear her feelings and thoughts are. I'm speaking from the trenches on this matter. In my opinion, my husband and I have been through some real pain and confusion over his tendency (which has a history...he has good reason from his past, before me, to have the tendency, yes) to leap to fears and conclusions that came from inside of him about my attitudes, thoughts and feelings, but vigorously discard what I was saying about myself or showing in action, in favor of what originated in his thoughts.
Once in the conversation I'd hear alarming descriptions of me that didnt match me, and hearing him insist over and over again that I was not what I said I was...I was always hearing that I was different and worse than what I was in fact thinking, feeling and doing, I began reverting to one of MY old buttons, to understand when I was being told I had to have the feeling or thought that he said I had (but I hadn') I read it through my old phantom that I was being pressured into the role of his nasty boogeyman (I had a parent who did that to us kids...she "offended/attacked from the victim position"). When accused of having a rotten interior, or even an interior that is not my interior, my old phantom is defensiveness.....and there my husband and I would be his old phantom and my old phantom pingponging in a contest that neither of us could win.
J writes about the problem of the phantom, as you say, the gollum. I think there's another piece to it, or that's what seems to me to be the case here at home, which is learning new trust, in the present, and using it. J did write about this in one of his posts, but I want to have my own say about trust...new trust.
To me, starting to find MY way out of these interactions in which my husband would expect me to be thinking or feeling something, or claim that I intended him harm, may have been the opening move of us finding a way to not go through them. We only both started to deal better with these situations, even agreeing to stand down before we hit J's turning point, when the two of us figured out how to begin to trust the report of each other's thoughts and feelings. In the present. NOT merely give lipservice to believing what the other was saying, BELIEVING, and acting based on belief, of what the other was saying.
Only then could we start to have truthful conversations in the present, in which we actually learned something from each other. ONLY then did it start to get easier, learning how to stand down when we hit the turning point, and then returning to finish the conversation later. Or if we missed the turning point, and the conversastion went south again, doing the necessary emotional and truth telling stock taking the next day or so about the conversation taht went haywire again.
To make it very clear: I could see, as I looked at what to me was very daunting, that he had some to me mysterious need to insist that I was thinking and feeling things that I wasn't, I knew I couldnt do ANYthing to MAKE him trust me. HE had to shift from fearing that I was his old boogeyman...boogeypeople in his past...including his misplaced but real fear of me!
And He couldnt do anything, jump through hoops, to MAKE me trust that what he was saying and showing of himself. I had to shift from reading my husband through my boogeymen from my earlier life (the assault coming out of the blue from someone...my parent...who acted like she was a victim). He couldn't do anything whatsoever to get me to quit reading him through that past of being told I was SH** or that I had an ugly interior or was lacking by someone grinding away at me from the victim position. Dropping that was my job. It was my job. It was also my job (he had his with the reverse of this) to acknowledge that yes he had said and done things in the past about which I had been very sad, but let it go and not read HIM through what he had said and done in the past and turn to TRUSTING him in the present., Please read what J just wrote about it taking 100 times plus before his wife came to trust what he was SAYING. Lip service about this issue wont do. Lying to oneself that sure, I trust him/her...but in fact what one is doing is keeping a scorecard of our own wounds and or of his/her infractions, is NOT trusting in the present.
I'm bringing this up because in what you truthfully wrote about your own feelings, a couple times you described, I'm sure accurately regarding yourself, that you expected signs that you could read of an emotional response inside of Liz, and when you didnt see the signs of those emotional responses to what you said, you reacted. ADH9, that's you having a reaction to your fear or pain or both of what you guess was or wasn't going on inside of her
Even Steven here. She has her feelings. You have yours. Neither can she control or demand you to feel and think what you're not, nor can you control or demand her to feel and think what she's not.
It's hard as all get out, to change from believing that another person is the source of one's own feelings, but you can't have your wellbeing hostage to your fear or anxiety about not being able to "get" a reaction from someone that you need.
They're Liz' feelings. You can't make her feel anything. And vice versa. This that I've said is very hard to deal with, or I've found it hard to deal with. I believe that you truthfully described your upset at not seeing signs of particular expressions of feeling that you determined that you needed from her. But it's too much into control to think that she has to reciprocate what you say with feelings that you determine.
I think J has given us a big piece of wisdom of the need to know and handle ourselves well enough to develop the knack of stopping ourselves before we trigger our old phantoms, so th phantom takes over.
I also think, from my own offline life, which I can say, after some hard times on this is getting better and easier for both of us, that both partners, and your job is you, not making Liz do anything, need to trust the truth that their partner TELLs and SHOWS in action, over what one thinks one's partner should be feeling, might be feeling, should be thinking, or might be thinking.
This applies to me, the non ADHD partner, as much as it does my ADHD husband. Finger pointing that my husband ought to have a certain reaction, but excusing myself from my own knitting, which is doing hard work of telling the truth in the present and trusting him to be telling his truth in the present....is evading.
I admire the two of you tackling talking over events that happened in 2013 and 2014, seeking to clear the air about them. I dont find that interpersonal work, going back over memories of past events in which there was upset in the past event to be easy. But its sometimes very important to do. Kudos to you two for tackling that, and to you if you brought those events up, in order to tell your wife you had come to a new understanding of them. : ) For me, going back over one old painful event with my husband is about all that I can handle in one conversation.
I'm glad you're going to go back over what J has written about developing ability in oneself to catch oneself before what J is calling the turning point in oneself and/or in the conversation is, and stop the conversation before it goes downhill. He can tell you about the insides of his ADHD, and how he's worked on himself in light of it. The catchng a conversation before it gets into a mano a mano between phantoms I think is really key.
Nice to make your aquaintance NowOrNever
Submitted by ADH9er on
Good morning to you - thanks for responding - off to work - I'll re-respond tonight.
ADH9er
Glad to see you on the forum
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Glad to see you on the forum again, ADH9er. I've read the response to J that you put up, as I was writing my post. All best to you at work.
A commitment of time. . . . . .
Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on
I admire the two of you tackling talking over events that happened in 2013 and 2014, seeking to clear the air about them. I dont find that interpersonal work, going back over memories of past events in which there was upset in the past event to be easy. But its sometimes very important to do.
NowOrNever,
I am frozen in a time warp. These 2 events are the current issues. . . . . . . . I have stepped out of participating in things because I cannot feel a firm grip on my own footing. . . . . .it takes a lot of time to dissect/explain things in order to feel as though my own thoughts and feelings are heard.
Things feel very complicated.
Liz
Simplify...And Conquer Liz
Submitted by kellyj on
I'm getting the funny feeling like deja vou here. I'm a verbal processor Liz....which sounds exactly like.... "it takes a lot of time to dissect/explain things in order to feel as though my own thoughts and feelings are heard."
I can tell you the answer....but I can't tell you how to do it. This one I know for sure since this is one of my target areas that I am still floundering in sometimes. This is also why my posts here are so long. I am completely capable...of proof reading and editing and whittling things down to an acceptable size....if I did that in writing. But that does nothing to help me do it in the moment when I am in front of my wife trying to have a conversation with her. I'm trying to practice whittling it down on the spot in the moment while I writing here....and as you can see...I have yet to find how to do that well? This is why my posts here are so long....I'm intentionally not proof reading editing in my efforts to practice doing this better where it counts....live and in person.
So if you read my posts....and take what you just said.....then you know what that is like on the receiving end of it? If you go too long and it takes too much time to get there.....you'll lose your audience and they will glaze over after a while? Right?
The only way I know around this so far for me...is to have everything down and figured out ahead of time and do this alone before you do it with him.
My sister told me she use to practice her entire lesson (as a school teacher) in front of a mirror and time herself to make sure it would all fit into the alloted time she had to do it in. She said sometimes...she had to do this 3 or 4 times until she finally got it right and she did this the night before she had to teach her class.
And your hubby has ADHD.(and probably does what I do as well. Processing at the same time while trying to speak. If the two of you are doing this at the same time....no wonder you guys are having trouble? lol
My wife does not have this problem at all and is just the opposite...but leaves me with the burden of trying to match her and be extremely succinct and direct and right to the point....brutally so!!! lol This I have yet to find any other way....than to have all of this figured out ahead of time and know exactly what I want to say. It's the only way I have found that I can NOT do what you just said.
J
NowOrNever- Ok I'm back
Submitted by ADH9er on
Again, thanks for listing, caring and sharing. I make apology up front for a short reply as yesterday was long, wet and muddy. My size 14 boots with size 15 go loses, collected enough clay to make it feel like I was climbing uphill all day. Also my computer navigation and typing skill rivals that of a first grader. And add to that, once home, I read and re-read yours - J's - and my wife's subsequent posts... Let's say it is soo much easier to slug around in the mud, jump in and out of ditches, shovel and carry heavy things- than to decipher, catalogue and retain what I've just read.
So let me start with additional key, (to me), details of 'the conversation'.
-yes, I was the initiator of the dialogue, with the hope for clear unfiltered (un-gollumified) understanding of Liz's posts from the previous Sunday.
-yes, I do expect / anticipate / long for/ desperately need, to not be perpetually held at arms length - regardless of my efforts, in the arena's of trust and forgiveness - so when I sincerely apologize, and say I want to fix it ( in this instance it is in regards to the privacy fence), and her response is 'it's too huge,' rejection is undesirable. I am stuck in this conundrum.
I will need to implement my gollum-time-out, I am just getting angry, and the clouds are rolling in.
I am sorry, I'll try to re-sort my thoughts later.
I wrote something in February that I will post on the Support for the ADHD Partner topic page.
ADH9er
..
(( ADH9er ))
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
(( ADH9er ))
...online hug
Warmly recieved
Submitted by ADH9er on
Thanks
Sigh...
Submitted by Zapp10 on
Here I sit again not knowing what to think.........
There has been a wealth of info in posts the last day or 2.(from Liz, J, adder, now or never). It gives me hope......and then.....
Last nite H and I made a commitment to go somewhere this morning at 8:30. We have not done this in a LONG time and it has been a BIG complaint of his so I was hopeful this would be a"good" thing. And here I sit......ready to go and he isn't up yet....and it's 9 o'clock. Since he needs and hour or so to wake up and be civil(which I am willing to give) we may or may not be leaving until 10-10:30. If this was so important to him......WTH? I am torn between crying and anger. I have no words. This is so normal for him I fear he will NEVER GET IT! Too many years, way too many tears......
I'm not ms. fixit about
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
I'm not ms. fixit about anything Zapp, just appreciative.. I often feel mousetrapped into my time and waiting held hostage because my hub has within himself decided to do or not do something that we had planned, taht has a time feature to it.
Hope you can salvage the time for you. One solution to your quandary that I don't want to use, so like you, I'm tied to these unannounced schedule shifts on my husband's part, is to develop fully parallel lives, each of us pursing our own schedules. We'd have no together time at all.
I'll be thinking of you this a.m. Zapp. : ( it doesn't help that he sometimes has amnesia about what he set up with me. Dem ADHD short term memory bluez.
Lol, go online shopping for clothes and put it on his card :D I jest. Thinking about you Missus Z
I have a car too
Submitted by jennalemone on
This was normal for H too. Until I started going places at the planned time WITHOUT him. Let the friends and relatives and the world know the truth. Don't babysit the truth for him. "H was still sleeping when I left. i don't know if he is coming or not." That's all. Carry on. He is always fuming when I do this and is sarcastic and has a put down for me. Sad but, when he realized I was not willing to smile and pretend nice, he was able to make it to the commitments on time. He doesn't want OTHERS tho think ill of him. Still, there are times when I show up places alone and he ambles in an hour later - or not. People probably think we are not getting along too well. They would be right. Although it makes me sad, and makes me look like someone without patience, I let it go and do not have to sit and stew. Sitting and stewing was making me nuts because I started to expect to sit and wait disappointed and had to stuff my own anger too often.
Flashback Here....Zapp and NON
Submitted by kellyj on
This is just insight from an experience that I had in my T's office in a moment that kind of hit me on the head and the light bulb came on.
No long story....just years of disappointment with my ex-wife and I. At the end of our relationship....and event happened where I did something stupid and trusted something that she said to me that never happened. My T called me on this as was sitting there trying to figure out what went wrong in my thinking.....He looked at me and said...
"Why did you do that? (trust her on something)....Huh? (duh)"
"What do you mean? (duh)"
"Is this anything new? What did you expect? For her to suddenly be different than she always been? Wouldn't that be like expecting someone who has never done that before and suddenly.... like getting hit by lighting....they completely do the opposite thing which is what you are expecting....just because you expect it?" (light bulb)
This was very much like what you said here. My ex would always say one thing....but never do it every time without fail. Like never...but she always said she would .... but then never do it. I mean never"
I felt kind of stupid when he said that because he was right......but why did I keep believing her?"
For me....it was because she believed she was going to do it and was very convincing and I kept believing her because I kept trusting her. But I kept trusting her because she didn't do this with everything....just this one thing....every time. But still....I kept applying all the times she didn't do it....to the one thing she did and kept believing her because because she actually believed herself when she was saying it. But once you got there....it never happened. Every time! lol (Like Lucy and the football with Charlie Brown)
This is when things really started dawning on me....that my wishing it would happen...or wanting it to happen so badly.... was the thing that kept getting in the way. I was not keeping track at how often or how many times she didn't do it....which was really dumb of me since.....she NEVER did! lo
Bottom line was....she could be trusted to do certain things.....but not others. Once I stood back and actually looked at the track record....I was feeling mighty dumb for thinking this time.... would be any different? That's my story here and that's what reading this reminded me of?
If you predicted this behavior base on the history and proceeded with what you know (instead of what you don't know)....it would change this situation and this wouldn't have the same effect on you. This is what I have learned is very very true.
Thinking like Missourians....the "show me" State. I won't not believe you....but I won't believe you either. Show me first and then I will believe you and until then....not.. "not believing you" means....I will proceed accordingly as if you never said it and won't hold my breathe or wait for you either and do what ever I need to do....with or without you? If you want to catch up with me....that will be fine too. I know this might not apply exactly but there might be something to be said in this as well?
Just a thought in perspective.
J
J
AHA!
Submitted by Zapp10 on
I agree totally with what you said. The last few years I have left MANY times without H. I stopped expecting him to be anywhere if "time" was involved UNLESS it was about him solely. If HE is" the center of attention" he will not be late(narc :) Because he has been complaining we don't go anywhere together he was "happy" I suggested this and I fell for it. Where we were going was not a big deal(take it or leave it) the point (or so I thought) was we were going together at an appointed time. I even offered a little later but he said "no 8:30 is good."
Of course I heard the same story I have heard for a life time about his oversleeping. I said nothing. I knew if I opened my mouth I would go for broke. I am amazed at myself that once more I believed him.OMG! WTF! is wrong with me? I do not know how to live together and apart at the same time! He simply is not going to do anything more than "read" about ADD and comment"that's good" and then just keep on doing the SAME THING! HOLY S***!
Bottom line.....I am not shiny enough...........and I NEVER will be, duh.
I am steering myself clear from him today. He does not, if he cares about his life, want to cross my path. I don't know if I should laugh, cry or vent( looks like I just did a little). Not near enough as I want to.......FUDGE!!!!!!!!!
And here's my tuppence on perspective :)
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
For me....it was because she believed she was going to do it and was very convincing and I kept believing her because I kept trusting her. But I kept trusting her because she didn't do this with everything....just this one thing....every time. But still....I kept applying all the times she didn't do it....to the one thing she did and kept believing her because because she actually believed herself when she was saying it. But once you got there....it never happened. Every time! lol (Like Lucy and the football with Charlie Brown)
...there's a conditioning piece in there, J.
Luckily, I think, my husband and I aren't yet set in our habits of always doing things the same way, yet. So I get to work on this in-going, not after lots of years , as you and Zapp are into. Plus I learnt my lesson that smart, capable people can get as conditioned by intermittent reward and regular behavior of one's partner with occasional wild card surprises, as anybody else.
So at this point, regarding this business of having set a date for something but my hub in his mind decides to do something else and doesn't tell me but it later pops up that I'm expected to bend to his new direction, I'm using something that I learned use with a good woman friend of mine, a really great person, who just could not do a reliable job of showing up to meet me, when or if she had made, let's say a lunch date, to meet me at a certain restaurant. After sitting for 45 minutes, telling the waiter that my friend hadn't appeared yet, no I wouldn't order, and with this lovely friend, she either could show up 45 minutes late, apologetic, or could have forgotten it entirely and I'd have to sit there still longer (in a world before cell phones) to find that out, I decided never to inconvenience myself over a meet up with her, that we'd always start out together from my house in one car....and that way she could be on time, 30 minutes late, or an hour late didn't matter, I just went on with what I wanted to do at home. Her friendship was much more important to me than her erratic response to time bound promises to meet. Zapp, I'm doing about that with my husband, but I must say, we both are highly schedule driven in our work, so we are learning to apply work scheduling habits to our meet ups or agreements to do things. It does help to figure out the meetup in a way that you're not hung out to dry and waiting, if the other person no shows for any reason, emergency, forgetfulness or whatever. Or at least I'm better tempered about things if I have an opportunity to turn the waiting-without-knowing time into something that I feel like I want or need to do. I realize that your first thing in the morning date with your husband who slept in doesn't work so well with that, but it bugs me more to wait with no ability to predict how long the wait is, and not doing anything, than it does to offer it up to the Inscrutable and go pull weeds or sit in the sunshine. It gets tangled up when we really want something that was promised...I know....
Thinking like Missourians....the "show me" State. I won't not believe you....but I won't believe you either. Show me first and then I will believe you and until then....not.. "not believing you" means....I will proceed accordingly as if you never said it and won't hold my breathe or wait for you either and do what ever I need to do....with or without you?
I am a Missourian. My version of show me is "there's talk" And "there's action" And "talk" isn't "action"....Keep with me now on this Missourian riff: "...but life more often than not is an exploding cigar, so who am I to think that my expectations rule the universe?" Hahaha.
On this one, my hub is lucky to have me. I have had so many darn things go whopperjod or blow up in my face....let me tell you a good one about being on a street corner in a foreign city, one of those giGAntic road grader or bigger sized tires bounced off a flat bed of a passing truck that hit a pothole and FLATTENED ME. My sack of groceries I was carrying had a couple of jars of tomato sauce in it, and the tire smackdown of me splattered tomatosauce to kingdom come....but it was all tomato sauce, no blood on the sidewalk, and after bystanders pried that big thing off of me and stood me back up...they even put the groceries that they could back in my sack...the light turned and I walked on. After a few of those, anyone would have to loosen up.
So You're From Missour-ah Huh?
Submitted by kellyj on
So was my father. Prove it first...then we'll talk! I don't know if that was just him or where he was from? (St Lois ) Do you also say Warshington Sorey? ( Sorry ) and Greeezy (greasy) Again....Missour-ah..or just him? The prove it part did seem to fit.....he was skeptical of everything! lol Once when visiting his sister (my Aunt)...I heard someone say "How-eye-ya" ( for Hawaii ).....thinking ...."Okay, that's taking it a little too far don't you think?" lol I'm not making fun....I just heard it all my life but only from him and no one else anywhere near where we lived. lol
Too funny about the Tomato sauce and the run away tire....I thought you were going to say that there was an outline (like crime tape outline of a body) in Tomato sauce left on the side walk. Wouldn't that be a little un-nerving if you came by later and saw that one! lol
Speaking of traveling and funny stories as I was saying the thing about un-nerving ( here we go don't get me started). My ex wife and I got lost one time in L.A. ( not the best place depending on?) and we just kept going thinking we would finally see a street we knew the name of. We pulled up to a stop light and my ex was looking around and she got kinda quiet...and then said...."are those bullet holes in that car sitting next to us?" Sure enough....they we're bullet holes alright....about six or seven of them all in the drivers door of the same parked car.
Needless to say....we turned around and went back the same way we came from. lol
And...one time at Band Camp.........
J
J and c ur
Submitted by Zapp10 on
Boy J did you time this right.....I so needed to laugh. I am trolling the forum tonite and I came across a post from a person wanting to know if anybody could be happy with an ADD spouse. She didn't find the forum very encouraging or hopeful. C ur answered her with " you want happy? Get a puppy" I was drinking coffee and am not ashamed to say I spit it halfway across the room. OMG! to be able to laugh!!! Thank you both...what started out as a lousy day just ended beautifully. I truly hope people see that we non Adders are frustrated but not hateful. And we are dealing with a burden of feeling WE are failures in marriage.(which I don't believe we are but feel it just the same....conundrum?) Off to refill my cup....
Too Funny...Zapp
Submitted by kellyj on
In reality...when I decided to join a Monestary after I was divorced.....I changed my mind and bought a dog instead. And when that wasn't good enough....I bought another one. Too this day...my dogs are the most faithfully and reliable companions I could ever hope to imagine...if faithful and reliable is what you are looking for:)
J
Your husband
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
...any drive by bullet holes in him?
: )
Best for your day, Zapp.
Of Missouri Mules
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Here's how we say it in my home state
Missour-ee
Missour-a
Misour-rr. Like the sound of a car running out of gas, r-rrrr
I say it Missour-ee
My fave wisdom from my own state? "To get a mule's attention, first you have to hit it between the eyes with a two-by-four"
I Get It Now ! Thanks For That....NON
Submitted by kellyj on
Really more just an idle curiosity since I noticed it. Along with the slight southern drawl. (you wouldn't think that far North?) That was my Aunt since she never moved from there. He probably lost that part along the way....except for the rrrr :) That must be the drawl part....Missour-a
My father was the...Missour-a with the rrrr (running out of gas ) for everything else....Warrrsh, Warrrshington, Sorrrey, Grrrreezy :)
Just so you know....(why I'm not making fun) I like accents even though from what I've been told....west coast doesn't really have one except for being called flat...if flat is an accent?
The only wisdom that I can think of from Oregon is......"Don't Californicate Oregon"..."Come Spend Your Money and Leave"...." Keep Oregon Weird"...and of course "OR-E-GUN" (bumper stickers). If you can call that wisdom? lol
People in the state use to cringe when Burt Parks (Miss America Pageant) would introduce Miss Oregon as...."Miss Ore-Gone" I think there was a hit contract put out on him for that one. lol
J
Ignorant Bliss....The Random Variable (Denial Again)
Submitted by kellyj on
The story of me sitting in my T's office and being in a state of (Duh...as I was musing)...was actually a moment of coming out of denial for myself. That's what the light bulb was all about. Ignorant bliss is..... well.....ignorant bliss.....but eventually....even Dorothy had to wake up and return to Kansas at the end of the story. And the great and powerful Oz turned out to be somewhat of a con man (a Carnival snake oil salesman).....with a seemingly, soft spot in his heart after all.
side note NowOrNever: my other family members on my father's side lived in Kansas....holy cow....is it flat there or what? lol Coming from growing up with trees , mountains and forests every where....I thought I had arrived.... to a "dirt skating rink" when I first visited there as a little boy.
In turn....my Aunt said she got claustrophobia....when she came to visit us and was surrounded by trees that were actually taller than the buildings everywhere she went because she couldn't see the entire sky at any given time?
There......those are two completely different perspectives based only on what you know?
And based only on what you know....you will either stay in Kansas....or you will adjust your perspective....once you move from there to a different place. Once your not in Kansas any more, and you think your in Oz instead.....it can be a rude awakening to find out that you're right where you are and you've been thinking you were somewhere else the entire time.
Luckily, I think, my husband and I aren't yet set in our habits of always doing things the same way, yet. So I get to work on this in-going, not after lots of years , as you and Zapp are into. Plus I learnt my lesson that smart, capable people can get as conditioned by intermittent reward and regular behavior of one's partner with occasional wild card surprises, as anybody else
I think smart capable people...are WAY more likely to get stuck in a rut in all aspects of their lives....than a lot of less capable and possibly less intelligent people who are simply oblivious to their own circumstances. Thinking..... Forest Gump here?
Growing up in my family at times....was Chinese Water Torture for me most of the time! My brother in law kidded that when he first came into our family situation....he said it was like "Ground Hog Day"....all the time! (especially on vacations, Holidays and any time "Fun" was supposed to be involved. How much fun can you have doing only one thing forever? lol I totally agreed with him and to this day....I don't think my sister has any idea?
And do you want to know why that was? (coming from someone who finds this life style like slow painful death?) It has nothing to do with intellect as I have observed....and more to do with Neurosis all said and done. I think repetitive patterns of behavior ARE Neurotic by definition?
Obsessive thinking ( or one track thinking gone to the extreme) may feel comfortable at the time (in the moment )....but that gets you into trouble in the long run and turns into "Ground Hog Day"....if you can't see your way out of it sometimes as needed. Especially on vacation....that's the point! lol
This is very apparent to me at times with conflicts that I am fighting up against in my wife. Growing up in "Ground Hog Day" (or Kansas)...where everything looks and feels the same all the time (Chinese Water Torture....drip, drip, drip, drip, drip.....)....OZ seemed much more appealing to me all things said and done.
And Oz as I see it...is like being Forest Gump in many ways.....I was just oblivious and didn't know any better....but these is something to said about being that way too. Having "balls bigger than your brains" can be very rewarding if you don't get yourself killed in the process. That and not over planning things and making decisions when you get to that bridge...can also make life an adventure...instead of pre-planning your itinerary to the "N"thed degree.
My own remembering something from a trip our family took together when I was still a teenager to visit my sister who had gone to Europe in an exchange program in college at the end of the school year.
By the time we had come close to reaching the end of our stay....my mother came down with virus that put her in bed for a couple of days. This was unfortunate for my mother....and a God send for me.....
I was 12 or 13 at the time?....and I had seen more Churches, museums,and tourist attractions to fill a life time all ready and the pace and schedule of all that pre-planning was more like being at home and having to go to school with buzzers and time tables and all the "visiting it all" on paper ahead of time with the brochures, reading up on it and planning it all down to the minute that my mother did (and then insisting on sharing this all with us ahead of time out of her own need from the "nervousness" and "fear of the unknown" or "something bad might happen if I don't" ...to help her get over that part )....than it was just being at home on a normal weekend and having some time off and relaxing and doing something "FUN" there instead. I'd already been there in my mind? Once I got there...it was like I already new the entire plot and story to the movie? Why even sit through that if you already know what is going to happen anyway???? In this case....my mother planned all the fun out of everything and made everything Ground Hog Day where ever she went. ( drip, drip, drip, drip, drip, drip, drip, drip, drip, drip, drip, drip, drip................)
So when my mom got sick and had to stay in bed....was when vacation really started...at least for two days since the entire itinerary had to be put on hold (again....Fraptous Day....Calouh, Callay!!! ) I went exploring and seeing the city we were in all by myself since my fathers emphasema would not allow him to keep up with me......
I remember....climbing like 400 ancient stone stairs inside the pinnacle of the tallest church in the area....so cool up on top like that!! I rememer hanging out in a park and eating sausages and Sour Kraut that I bought in some filthy looking hole in the wall that my mother would have never dreamed of eating ....and they were the best sausages I had ever had in my life? Sitting and listening to the locals and wandering around and going down alleys and finding old sections of roads that were over 3000 years old from the Romans who built them and they had never been replaced that seemed completely hidden and more residential areas. I found and old entrance to the lower part of the city...and discovered ancient subterranean aqua- ducts that were later used as bomb shelters during world war II and went crawling around in there.
I also walked by one of the "Holocost Internment Camps" that was closed to visitors that day...but a maintenance man had left a side gate open...and I went in and walked around by myself for a while going up and down the rows of barracks that housed the victims while there. It was surreal to do this and be the only one in the entire place. It gave the me the "realest sense" of what that must have been like to stand there and sit and just think about the events that had happened right where I was standing. Eventually...the maintenance man came around the corner and yelled to me something that I didn't understand...so I took off and ran back out in to the street again....but not without that experience that has stayed with me to this day.
All of that happened in just one afternoon....and none of it would have...(or did) ...if my mom hadn't been sick and bed. This is what I remember and made an impression of me.....not the Chinese Water Torture that I had expereinced up until the end of our visit and that my mother felt comfortable with.
J
Great story
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Great story of you as 12 year old released from the leash of someone else's schedule and needs to attend to her, so you could fly, fly! No kidding, what a wonderful story to read.
Personal opinion, I think your claim that repetitive behavior is a sign of neurosis is somewhat overdoing it. Some things ned to be repeated. I think I remember you writing elsewhere that if your work patterns that you've devised for yourself are disrupted, your forward motion, using the regular way you do things (regardless of what they look like to outsiders) gets very frustrated. So for me, it comes down to which behavior is getting repeated, and whether the repetition is sought and understood as good. One of the most analytically interesting things going on in our house, analysis meaning watching how we tinker with part-whole matters, is which routines my husband and I are experimenting with adding to our whole. Which means we both seek and want, and/or accept as necessary to one or the other of us a routine in which we both paricipate. Coincidentally we just now talked about two of these willingly shared routines. He made a remark that one of them was working, to which I agreed. The other I said that I was intending to change how I did my part of it but I wantd to continue the desired routine with him. So routine = sign of neurosis is too big a generalization for me.
That said, two agreements, with you on the specifics of some personalities driven batty by reduction to routine, and about the bland bland to me, as you, socialization patterns of the open spaces midwestern US. J I dont have ADHD, as far as I can tell, but I like you have a powerful discomfort with some kinds of repetition. It makes me very, very nervous; it is stupefying to me and I feel trapped by it. This is a gigantic matter for me. My husband is as smart a human being as I've ever met, with very exceptions. He's totally ADHD and has a wonderfully capacious, interesting, inventive mind. And I tell you, on the routine versus getting free to go see, I'm farther out of the box than he is...in my own way, not the way he is. So when I read about you rambling far and wide, off the leash of someone else's routine, I cheered.
wup, have to finish and go offline for the moment. More to say about Kansas.
I'm back. About Kansas. Holy cow, it IS flat out there...but then you know about glaciation coming all the way down there, and in the northern half of Harry Truman's state, right? Eastern Kansas is something else, though. Midwestern culture, to me, is something like learning to drink beer, wine, coffee...who knows, eat brussels sprouts. you didnt like those when you first put them to your lips, did you? J, just chatting with you, there is something about Flatland out there. Missouri is gnarlier in the south of it. It took me being out there in Kansas, and meeting people out there, on their terms, before I started to get the Kansas thing. The small town culture and farm culture is dying out there, so except for principled holdouts, towns, farmers...I dont know what's going to happen.
I recommend to you, though, if you ever get out there again, with some time, to go out and spend some time in the Flint Hills. No picture on Google gets a toe on it. It's vastly bigger than a camera lens, even one panning.
I'm a late learner of some things about the Midwest. Good people in Kansas. Even some who are a little crazy. I'd work alongside them any day, if they're of the old culture.
That, said, as a child growing up in the Midwest, I'd go nuts about the ritual repetitions, like doing every Fourth o July exactly the same, the conversations after church exactly the same, not a variation of a syllable. Garrison Keillor has his finger on the Minnesota pulse of it.
When You Come Back.....Learning To Adapt
Submitted by kellyj on
As I tell these stories....I'm not altering my thinking patterns at all. Most of them...I'm putting myself back at the time that they are placed in...and told from that perspective.....that is....from the view point of a 13 year old.
What I now actually believe...and goes back to the thing I said about Neurosis?
Somewhere...there has to be a defining line in between. A lot of the things I didn't say...I have come to learn from the specifics of my particular situation and my own specific family which I've learned in therapy and my T. If I try an water down my view point in the story....it won't be told accurately to include everyone ...but that does not imply that everyone is like this....or....that everyone in SOME WAYS....is not?
So where is the defining line between healthy.....and possibly not so healthy....even if it's in the normal range of behavior? Everyone cannot be right....and everyone cannot be wrong either. But everyone is human....and everyone has tendencies....and I think this is a good place to start looking for you own particular brand of how to do things and how that all fits with someone else. No two people are exactly the same either...and that's where things become trickier....depending on what I see (now) as where things start to become a problem.
My current perspective on this? (not the ones from my past and the ones I've using at times to illustrate my thinking at the time) Comes from something that my T gave me as a tool to help me figure this out if I'm not sure myself?
As he put it....."Are you going away from something? Or are you going towards something? Avoiding it like procrastination....or doing it for a specific reason that is not necessarily necessary.
Not necessarily necessary is a good way to put this. Going back to my reference about my wife and I and the conflicts we sometimes get into over these things. If you can do things one way out of personal preference or "taste"...(like food preferences for example)...but you'd be Okay if you ate something else instead.....then that's just a preference. But a preference is not necessarily necessary?
But in comparison to that int example for my wife or mother at times....there is something going on that is very necessary out something that no one else is experiencing? Back to the situation with my brother in law coming in and saying Ground Hog Day? My brother in law saw it.....I saw it....to a certain degree my Dad saw it....and even my sisters saw it but they just bought into it and never questioned it or asked themselves WHY? But they too were bothered by it and everyone was in some way effected by it in a negative way? That part was clear depending on the level of negative effect this had on each person. But at the end of the day in that case.....everyone can't be wrong and only one person is right?
And too the point.....(as I am referencing my sisters and just "buying in" and never questioning? )
Accepting something that is harming you and you keep doing it anyway because you don't believe it isn't harming you ....but it is......is a rationalization and where denial comes from. "I'm Okay"...".it's alright"...".I don't mind."..."everything is fine"...."I do as I'm told and that means it's right"...."I follow along because that is what you are suppose to do" . In reality......if the answers to everyone of those statements is not true for the person saying them..... that's denial and those are all rationalizations and non of that is healthy for the person doing it.
Going back to...."are you going to something....or...are you going away from it?" If you are doing something that you would otherwise avoid....and there is a good reason for that and your aware of this.....you can choose to do it anyway....or you can avoid it for your own reasons.
The problem with that thinking....is that it only includes yourself within it and it's not a complete thought process. If someone else is doing the same thing with the same awareness to it. You both can decide to make a compromise coming from the same place and this shouldn't be that difficult?
But if something has ahold of you in an unhealthy way.....that person is driven to do something that they have no control of or NEED TO HAVE just to be Okay....and they are not aware of this at all....or for what ever reason they think they NEED TO HAVE this in a more desperate and debilitating way.....this is no longer "not necessarily necessary" and becomes more extreme and "one track minded' in an effort to what?
Avoid something else....what ever they are so intently or driven to get away from which is causing them to do something else in order to get away from the thing that is causing them so much anxiety. It's the reaction and the opposite action from the other action....(.Newtons 1rst and 3rd Law )
This kind of repetitive action....is not a choice for the person doing this....this is just a response or reaction to something else and becomes a repetitive cycle that they remain stuck in ( or repetitive loop of the same behavior...over and over with no change or variation ). drip, drip, drip, drip, drip.......... no matter how unhealthy or even harmful to them that behavior is. And they can't see that or get there way out of that loop.....addictions and or Neurosis take you pick?
I told you I think my mother had ADHD and I really think this is true now. I also think as a side effect of that in response....comes a lot of obsessive behavior and thinking. I see it in myself....and I see it for the same reason I just explained.
But the point I'm making here....is that I see it....and have done things to change the parts that are harmful to me as well as affecting other people as much as I can. Not seeing this is denial....seeing it even if it is difficult or you don't always follow through....becomes a choice. From that point on....you can't use excuses to justify your behaviors.....no rationalizations either. And even if you slip occasionally....you see that too. We're only human after all? lol
So now if I look at my wifes behaviors and I see these things in here....and she is driven by something that she cannot see...but it is harming her....and having a negative effect on me...and othes see it too.....but she won't talk about it....gets defensive...uses rationalizations and makes illogical explanations for her behaviors....and appears to HAVE TO HAVE IT....or she CAN'T be Okay. This is not necessarily not necessary for her and becomes absolutely necessary or she falls apart of starts to come unglued. That as I see it....is the same things I recognize in myself and have done myself due to my ADHD. The same as I now recognize with my mother the experience we all had with her.
More than anything.....I recognize the same feeling I have with my wife as I did with my mother and that is the best indicator of all if I use that as my way of seeing what's happening?
Giving my wife some credit here where credit is due. I don't see her doing what my mother did and refuse to look at it and refuse not to see it at all. I've seen her make gigantic strides in these areas of self awareness with me pointing them out to her along the way. This is what caused such vehement reactions in her at first...but she has come to the place where she will admit her issues and talk about them with me I will know what I need to do.
Before....it was just reacting with anger like a drug addict who you might try and take their drug away from them. That's "going away from one behavior or negative feeling...to doing another behavior with a desired feeling" which is...."going away from something"....."not going towards it."
And knowing this NOW (unlike before since she could bot explain this to me and I had to figure it out on my own).....I can be a lot more accepting of things that might otherwise be "not necessarily necessary" in my opinion base not just on myself....but what I have observed in others as well.....to making it a "necessity" for me to do ...because it's a "necessity" this is for her even if a little out of scale. This is my choice and I'm not being forced, manipulated or controlled into doing. BIG DIFFERENCE!
And the reason I can do this much more easily is.....I have things that are "necessities too" even if she can't understand them like I do....but I have got her to see that these things are all that much different between us....and I can now predict what she needs ahead of time to avoid the problems we've had in the past. I do them because they are necessary for her to be Okay....even if I don't. And ....I expect the same in return.
The problem more before was....she could see the parts that were necessities for her.....but didn't care if something was necessary for me if that got in the way of what she needed and was not likely to compromise...if it meant possibly ....taking her drug away. I'm using the drug reference a means to compare it being Neurotic. I see the behaviors similar even if they are not exactly the same.
Simply put.....when I see someone unwilling to compromise, who seems very rigid and unable to adapt or adjust and has to have things exactly in a particulate way and everything seems "necessary"...instead of "not necessarily necessary"...it causes me to stand back and take inventory of this behavior and me thinks this... "highly suspect"....all things considered?
And if my behaviors always seem to go against what I want for myself or for what is even healthy for me ( or worse...unhealthy for me) just to be with them in service of what is ...."necessary" for them in every situation. I also see this as highly suspect an in need of some further investigation and self reflection as to why....am I with this person if they don't seem to care how this is effecting me?
In my case....I don't see my behavior as not having a negative effect on my wife and I know that how I see it (the effect this has) I can't use to determine how she feels under the same circumstances. I have that solidly in my thinking already. What I do have to consider is....is that person willing to compromise or not...and for what ever reason..... this is bad for me or causing me harm? And if it is and they refuse to look at that behavior or make adjustments to it....That the defining line right there.
The only real true absolute needs anyone has....is food,shelter and water to stay alive.....everything from there ...is somewhat negotiable:)
J
Yes, obsessive behavior.
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Yes, obsessive behavior. That's something else.
One of the saving ideas that a past therapist gave me is that yes, people do the same dang thing, over and over...until they figure out how to change it. That every thing, as she said, was trial runs and flops until you figured out how to succeed. I always liked that approach because it reinterpreted all those repetitions leading to fails as part of a learning curve, life teaching you the same lesson over and over again until you Eureka! Saw your own way to change. In other words, people fail and fall short until they find their own way to rise.
That puts doing the same dysfunctional thing over and over into a different viewfinder....if the person of course isnt using repeated failures as demos that they are weak, to themselves.
Yes....Going Down With the Ship NON
Submitted by kellyj on
I like what the insight your T gave you and that fits right it to what I believe for myself. ( the example you referred too in learning the skills to do the jewelry work I do). It's why I include it here and merging it into the idea that you can use the same method..... for the same reason...and apply it to learning how to get control or mastery of anything else including ADHD) The goal is to learn and overcome your challenges and that's....going to...or moving forward towards a goal or behavior.
But underneath the obsession or addiction...lives a darker or more destructive hatred of oneself (or the shadow)....and if that person is just hell bent on destruction and going down with the ship. They've given up or just lost in direction and that becomes your responsibility to make sure they stay afloat. Or if you follow them.....they'll take you down with them. Either that or they're just a bone-fide Narcissist.... and in that case and you go down....they just don't care.
if the person of course isn't using repeated failures as demos that they are weak, to themselves. It's why self love is so important. If you cannot love yourself enough to pull yourself out of a tail spin nose dive....you'll end up hating yourself for your failures and believing you are worthless and take who ever you are with....down with the ship with you. If you care enough for yourself not to do this....you will care enough that you don't do this to someone else. Actually in some cases I think.....some need someone else to care enough about to do this for.... since they cannot do this for themselves as a replacement for themselves in that case too.
I think this kind of behavior can be infectious too. You have to know when to pull out and when there is no salvaging someone who is hell bent on destruction I think. It'[s important to know that defining line I was talking about ...in order to determine for yourself....when it's harming you at the same time and likely not going to change. The only one of these scenarios where I truly believe that there is no hope for would be a malignant Narcissist....and that be the only exception I can think of for hope in ever changing. Not saying impossible....but highly unlikely and a lot a damage for you....for very little in return.
Just so you know....my wife does not fit into any of these categories....but I have had experience with this enough to know... there are folks out there like this and they do exist. My wife is survivor and in that much I have faith in:)
J
Trying until you get it right, vs. obsessive repetition
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
J, I think you have described the mechanics of obsessive repetition well.
I also appreciate that you discussed how one's own being in the power of one's own dark shadow, to use your lingo, ends up at minimum affecting, and at maximum demanding the cooperation of one's intimate partner or family members with one's own shadow. Which, yes, can bring one's partner down.
There's a sunny side possible, too, that one's own increased love of oneself, maturation, joy, faith, can affect one's partner in good ways. That's in the human realm of possibility, and there's evidence of it all around us.
People sharing the same living quarters live so psychically close to each other. If one begins to change, it really does put the other one in a challenged position concerning their view of themself and handling of them self.
'
For Myself Here.....This Is What I Know
Submitted by kellyj on
I can't really speak for everyone else with ADHD so I will limit what I say here based only on myself.
I'm an optimist and always have been. Why or how I got that way....I don't really know except.....I feel that this also came from my mother. I have to credit her for everything she did right too. It's difficult to speak about the negatives openly....without sounding as if you are that way yourself. But I gravitate to positive things....and try and stay positive as much as possible. Just being around negatively....has an adverse affect on me and makes it extremely difficult to maintain my own balance.
What I have come to learn however....is that you have to maintain your balance anyway....even in the face of adversity and stay on the positive side of things which is not anyone else's responsibility or reason not to be this way and stay that way. If you are dependent on someone else to do this for you....or dependent on someone else's positivity to do this for yourself.....you become a victim or circumstances or that other person either way.
In a perfect world.....I could do this pretty well all by myself and keep a positive outlook on life.
In reality.....there is always a negative side to everything if you choose to look at it but there also has to be in order to compare and contrast anything and use those differences and use that to learn and for positive things. Not doing this.....or looking away from that or pretending it doesn't exist is a form of denial I do believe.
Being positives or optimistic doesn't mean that the negatives don't exist. It's what you do with it and how you see it....that makes all the difference in the world.
Denying the negative aspects of yourself is a dis-service to yourself first....and that becomes a dis-service to anyone else you are with....but this applies to everything and other people you care about as well. Only seeing the positives in everything at the exclusion of seeing the other side...is denial. Being able to see the positives and use the negatives to move forward and learn from doesn't mean you aren't a positive person....it only means that you are able to recognize the negative parts and not br afraid to admit or talk about them. I think that in itself is a positive thing.
I think the thing that gets under my skin more than anything else....is a person not willing to talk about the negatives and refuses to look at them. This kind of denial is where I have discovered that my cynicism and passive aggression comes from at times. Those two things come from my frustration with someone who refuses to look at the entire picture...while thinking they are a good person for denying the negatives even exist. Or worse....judge those same qualities in others.....that they deny in themselves and believe they don't have.
I truly think a part of this is learned from the experience of having ADHD. You can't help but notice these things in yourself....and when you see someone else denying it and you know it isn't true.....the frustration level peaks the meter until you can no longer stand it any more. Having an outlet for this or a way to express it comes in many forms and for me....and the way I found to do this is to find positive ways to release all that energy since it's very easy to do this in the other direction and that's what causes others to pull away. Some of those sharp edges that Melissa was talking about at times comes from this very thing. My saving grace...is my well developed sense of humor. This is how I try and turn a negative...into a positive experience.
That's why having a sense of humor for me has always been critically important. It is the way I have found to take a negative and shine a light that shines a light on the ridiculous.
If people take themselves too seriously all the time...it appears like they have no sense of humor at all to me....and those who are like this....get very touchy about making fun of anything. Making fun...or creating fun...is a creative positive experience as long as it's not harmful your not doing at others expense. ( the lesson I learned from being this way a child with the practical jokes that were not always appreciated.) I do not like pracical jokes any more for that very reason.....at someone else's expense. I think for some however....everything feels as if it's at their expense and there is nothing you can do about that one I think? lol If it's impossible to have good humor at all about anything and everything is serious ALL the time....it does make it difficult to do this and that sometimes can get in the way of this. This is also a place I have learned new tools in order to avoid those who fit this category. They do have that right after all? Who am I to change them or make that different for them however....it's pretty hard to deny someone who refuses not to be negative all said and done....except....I do know a few and there is not point in fighting someone who absolutely wants to be negative and pissy all the time. It seems to be a badge of honor for them or something....I just don't know?
I have come to realize however....that not everyone is like this and in respect to those who are.... I try and be mindful of this. But since I'm not that way myself....it also makes it difficult to sometimes to know where to draw the line for someone else? Looking at Lemonade and saying you don't like it because Lemons are sour.....is denying that it's sweet after you already added the sugar? lol
The story of the Fox and Sour Grapes is what brought this to mind....
Driven by hunger, a fox tried to reach some grapes hanging high on the vine but was unable to, although he leaped with all his strength. As he went away, the fox remarked 'Oh, you aren't even ripe yet! I don't need any sour grapes.' People who speak disparagingly of things that they cannot attain would do well to apply this story to themselves. (taken from Wikipedia)
This what I try and do myself in almost any situation I can think of. It is what I think I learned to do by default having ADHD.....that is....to see the grapes.....and instead....find a way to get them instead of walking away and doing what the fox did in Aesopes Fable.
And when I see someone acting like the Fox.....I get short and irritable with them when they walk away with a sour grapes attitude. This is allowing their negative attitude to affect me by doing this. and I'm no longer being the positive person I know I am. Learning to accept that some people are like this and not have that effect me...is the thing that I have learned that I needed to find a different approach than before since their sour grapes......were making my Lemonade sour after all the hard work it took in making it...and adding the sugar to make it sweet. :)
J
Trying until you get it right, vs. obsessive repetition
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Double post
Hi Zapp 10...This is common in my house also....
Submitted by c ur self on
The reality is, my wife goes to bed with good intentions...But sadly, most of her plan's for the next day usually don't come to fruition....So after many days feeling the pain of placing expectations (like you are feeling here) on her commitments, I've learned to not do that.... This goes back to some of my former comments about living my life, like she doesn't exist....I realized my life was being dictated by someone who couldn't manage their own life.
So the trick here is to accept her like she is, and go on with my life. So that means a lot of separate things...Boundaries like...Plans, travel, finances, cleaning boundaries, so on and so on...The more she experiences me going on with my life, and refusing to place expectations on her spoken plans:), instead of her actual follow through (actions)....the more she gets hit in the face w/ her lack of self discipline...And the less I'm held hostage or emotionally impacted by her living of life....
To be nice about it, I fore warn her many times....(Yes, that sounds great, but, if you're not up putting legs on your commitment...I will be moving on with my life...I'm not your mommy, my beautiful Angel of a wife....)
Blessings C