We’ve been together for over 20 years and it’s never been quite right. I should have known something was up when she was an hour late for our first date. She’s rarely been on time since. Her father should have been a clue - he lives alone surrounded by boxes of junk that he can’t part with, so I am told because no one except his ex-wife is allowed to enter his home. His ex-wife is an enabler of the first order ... and perhaps so am I.
My wife and I have been in counseling for quite a long time with no progress. She never could complete any of the assigned readings, nor complete any homework between sessions. Most of these sessions just turned out to be traded recriminations. I’ve known there was something amiss for a long time. ADHD had come up but I knew nothing about it and never investigated.
Two so years ago I retired (Im 17 years older) and we moved to a new state to the much smaller house my wife always wanted. I love it here, including the much smaller house, but some problems followed, including my wife’s inability to organize anything, especially her things. They accumulate in boxes all around.
I love to cook and do all of it. The deal is that she cleans up. This part just doesn’t happen. The odd thing is that I am forbidden from touching her stuff, nor may I do the dishes. I must wait until she goes to work before I do them. Sometimes she extracts a promise from me that I won’t touch them while she’s gone. She then gets home but won’t start the dishes till I start making dinner - so we bump around the kitchen. If I start accumulated dishes on a Sunday morning she hears me, jumps out of bed, races downstairs, angry, and insists she will do them. She starts in, in a snit, and doesn’t (I’m not making this up) get done til noon!
Last year the garden was all mine. I love doing the garden - I plant it in square foot fashion and it produces abundantly, last year too much so. We were also building a barn last year (that’s another story) and my part took a lot of time so I did not get to harvest everything the garden produced. This year she insisted on being part of the garden, which is fine, but the weeds are completely overgrown on her portion that I am forbidden to touch.
We live in this beautiful house in a gorgeous countryside. Our beautiful perennial gardens are overgrown and full of weeds - I am forbidden to touch them, she will get to them. The upstairs of our barn that is to be finished as an apartment for guests lies undone. I am forbidden to start. On Sunday night at 7pm as she started to can pickles (she intended to all day but lay in bed instead doing something on her iPad) she had a meltdown, which is very common. This one was different in that she confided in me that she had left unpaid bills from our last locale. I manage all finances of course but I knew nothing about these. She gave me some details and we can easily cover these bills. We talked about her newly diagnosed ADHD. She is to get a heart study, meet with the doctor again in two weeks and finally start Meds, but these wheels turn with excruciating slowness. The conversation quickly turned, as it always does, to my issues. I admitted, as I always do, to anger, frustration, and occasional yelling. No person with ADHD, I’m sure, has ever been married to a perfect human, and she is certainly not the first.
I realize that I cannot help her from close up, so I have left. It’s excruciating not to live in my house but our proximity only makes things worse. Since the diagnosis a couple weeks ago I have read two books, including Melissa’s, and scoured the web. Lots of “AHA” moments when I recognize typical patterns and behavior. She has read nothing, she can’t. My daughter married a wonderful fellow three years ago who was diagnosed when young and has been on meds. We have had some in depth discussions as her husband has described some very successful coping strategies.
There is hope but I really don’t know. I apologize for this long post and there’s much of importance that I haven’t told, but this is already too long.
Two cents
Submitted by SweetandSour on
I know this doesn't address the real issues, but in my opinion, you need to re-negotiate the dishes issue. She's getting mad because she wants to do her part and feels like she's failing. Meanwhile, you are hamstrung. Not touching her stuff is a reasonable boundary, but not touching the dirty dishes when they're in your way is not. Although "you cook, I'll clean up" seems like a reasonable agreement, I've found, over many years, that it doesn't work in practice. It works much better to work in the kitchen in your own way. I personally clean up as I go along. I also don't want to start cooking when there's a bunch of stuff in my way. It's less annoying to clean up myself than to have someone say they'll do it and then they don't. Also, if that person cooks and they are very messy, they can (should) clean up after themselves, and if that's the expectation then they can relax and enjoy more too because there's no reason to criticize the way they do things in the kitchen. Again, just my opinion, but you shouldn't agree to not touch the perennial beds unless they are entirely your wife's project. I think she could see you stepping in and doing things she's said she will do as passive-aggressive pointing out of her failures, so you need to carefully re-negotiate with an emphasis on what you want to do, because you enjoy it and have time to do it, rather than on how she's failing to do it. Everyone needs areas in which they have all the control I think, so hobbies that they can do their way and spaces that they can keep their way. But in marriage we need to compromise, so one person should not be allowed to stonewall joint efforts. I know how impossible this is to deal with because of my own relationship and watching my parents. You shouldn't be mean about it, but you shouldn't let someone control what you do - if they don't want to do something, they have that right, but they don't have the right to stop you indefinitely from going ahead.
Hang in there
Submitted by Patanne on
Stay positive, feel good that you found the courage to leave it’s so easy to forget to take care of yourself, take this time alone to do that. Hopefully the medication will make a positive change for you both
Hi Mrhvmd.....
Submitted by c ur self on
I just thought I would jump in here and agree with sweet and sour....I'm married to (11 years now) a sweet wife who has many of the same traits you are dealing with....My marriage also had many of the same problems yours does....But I realized we had to set boundaries, due to the behaviors you have listed....I'm a lot like you...Cook, Garden and she is just like your spouse....She wants to claim a part of every thing....And tells me don't tough her stuff....So I watch her plants die....LOL...Or use to....I just tell her now, I'm not going to watch them die..Either you water them or I am...I don't care what she thinks about it....(Im also retired, 6 years now) I use to walk on egg shells about that stuff early on...You just can't communicate (sane conversations) w/ someone who acts like they do..etc...So I try to not get into the debates any longer, that way the relationship isn't so strained....If your's is like mine, she will never take ownership...Or she use to not...She's been amazing humble and self aware lately..Praise the Lord!.....
Any way I suggest you put some boundaries in place....We have several, and they work when respected....We don't share finance's....We do our taxes separate....We travel in separate automobiles (her lateness, my promptness, and her unwillingness to not touch her iPhone while driving) to many things...We don't have many problems w/ the dishes....She want do pots and pans, so I do those, but she will place the things she messes up in the dishwasher, I hand wash my stuff....It' all about mutual respect and boundaries, if you don't have them you will stay angry a lot, and she will seek to control and manipulate....All the no follow through you describe is the same here....They have good intentions many times, but the ability to accomplish the tasks in a timely fashion just doesn't exist for the mind type our wives happen to live in....My wife takes adderall, it helps her focus, but it does nothing for her severe dislike for the mundane work that comes with each new day....
Best wishes to you going forward...
c
Response to post
Submitted by ashley benson on
To all comments so far ...
Submitted by mrhvmd on
Thank you all for reading my post, giving it thought, and taking time to respond. I have had little access to Internet for days. All of you make cogent points. My wife and I have had some very difficult, but productive, discussions over the last few days. It’s hard to categorize an exchange as “productive” when you are exhausted afterward and feel like you’ve sustained a belly punch, but so it is. She is very sensitive to any statement or action on my part that conveys the impression that I see her as broken. I must admit to a real challenge to get over this myself. I look at what I might call the compared records of each of our functionality over the years and the evidence seems clear. Melissa, in her book, really emphasizes how disastrous it is for me to embrace this perspective. I am coming to see ADHD as a thing that exists in our relationship that alters our reality. I am coming to the hope that once it is fully recognized, accounted for, and addressed, then we can make progress. The more I see it as a “way of being” as opposed to a malady, and base my actions and reactions upon that viewpoint, the better it will be. My wife needs confidence. She needs a few wins. We need victories in our relationship. We took a bike ride yesterday, spotted birds, identified wildflowers, then went out for dinner. Nothing needed to be accomplished, there were no clashing approaches to solving a problem. Almost like a date. We are signed up for the couples course beginning in October. Tuesday we go back to the doctor and, I hope, begin a trial of medication. For now I am sleeping elsewhere and avoiding confrontations over dishes, clutter, etc. that we just don’t yet have the skills to handle.
Thanks again for your help!
It definitely sounds as
Submitted by ashley benson on
It definitely sounds as though you are feeling more hopeful! I’m glad to hear that you guys got to spend some good quality time together yesterday, and that there is a doctors appointment coming up. I hope that Melissa‘s seminar will help you! I have been through it before as well.
Just my opinion....
Submitted by c ur self on
(She is very sensitive to any statement or action on my part that conveys the impression that I see her as broken.)
Why not? She was born with the mind she has, just like you and I...She also can't do anything to change it (She has feelings just like you and I, I imagine those feelings have been stepped on many times, I sure did it to my wife) no more than you and I can change our birth minds....The result of inattention/ distractibility/ impulsiveness etc., will always make a marriage relationship difficult (There will never be fairness or equality in the daily work)....Once you and I accept this, then we have a chance to move forward...If we refuse to accept this, we spend our short lives, angry and frustrated...Which make us unfit to be in a relationship also...
The only way to make the most of our relationships is to set up boundaries to stop either of you from taking advantage or living intrusive or abusive of the other....Most couples need help with setting up boundaries....Simply because of denial (self blindness) of how each of our personal behaviors effect each other, and the relationship....
You DO NOT have to discuss add/adhd to identify differences....Call it differences and forget add/adhd terminology ( A high precentage of add/adhd minded people or very uncomfortable discussing it..ESPECIALLY with the person that they expect to love, and cherish them! (Think about it?? Put the shoe on the other foot? See how that works?)....That will change your out look about your wife....And it forces her to deal with her own actions without excuse....In other words, if she can't function once boundaries are in place, and she needs meds...then it's her responsibility to get it, and take it.....That is exactly what a counselor will tell her.....
Some times boundaries feel so restrictive....But that's the point...The restrictiveness creates uncomfortable situations for either partner that wants to justify intrusive living...It identifies it....It causes a victim minded person, or user, to have to face it....My wife started off hating boundaries...Because she lived very needy and intrusive (like a child) I would do it, she would ignore it...LOL.....Examples....Are you not going to wait on me to go to church?!!....LOL...After I had calmly told her my boundary...."I would love for us to go together, to walk in together, hold hands and be as close as two people can be...But I will never do what you do...I will never walk into a class 10 minutes after it starts (be disruptive, and also miss the content of the class material) and justify it, when I planned my life to be on time or early...I would not go, if I was going to be disruptive, and justify it...I told her, to me, that says to everyone else, I am better than you, get over it!.....But, she don't view it that way, so, fine by me...She can drive...No conflict.....Example 2....We tried to file our taxes together the first several years...Married filing jointly...Should be simple, right?....LOL...She would claim 4 all year, I would claim one... (we had one teenager at home) Then she would want me to pay half or more..What? LOL..And then claim I was the problem we were paying..What? LOL...OK...Also I could not get her in gear w/ her receipts etc...Last minute...I'm not that way...So boundaries....What's happened since? I don't have to tell you...I'm done by March, (a few hours at the table on turbo tax) and I get $ back....She has been paying between 2500 and 4000 the last several years...Filing on are near the April 15th....So boundaries!...No conflict! She don't like it...But she is growing!
No marriage where a high level of add/adhd is present, can ever work without forced accountability (Respected Boundaries) on both spouses....There is just to huge of a canyon that separates our ways of thinking...Not to mention all the other factors...(the way we view life, our belief systems, male/female thought patterns)....
Many adhd folks make excellent friends, funny, caring, people who are fun to be around, that you don't have to take home, or count on....So if you find yourself thinking "HOW DO WE STOP THIS ROLLER COASTER??" It takes boundaries!....Many Non's do view them as broken, because of the intrusiveness, we get tired, we get frustrated, we mother, we enable, all because we keep thinking, we can think for them (expectations) That's delusional thinking!....Other's fall to the illusion that medication is going to fix everything...That ain't happening!....
I suggest you focus on loving her with all your might....Accept her!....But set boundaries to stop the intrusiveness, and never enable or mother her......She want like it at first, and you may not like some things also...But it beats the heck out of what goes on, without boundaries....(We had no marriage, we had chaos, and something that needed killed and buried)....There is no way to focus on "Love and Respect" with out cleaning up the difference's and the intrusive behaviors.....That means respected boundaries, or separate houses....Which usually means separation or divorce.....
c
This does indeed sound
Submitted by Sollertiae on
This does indeed sound hopeful, as is finding a bit of space where there are no deadlines and hurdles except to simply be. That is the best sort of time to find, and the best way to accomplish dates in my book. Your instincts are good.
She isn't broken. Different yes, where she operates in a pace and rhythm that are very much not yours and probably seems utter chaos, but this doesn't mean she isn't okay. It definitely sucks that the entirety of the world is not set up for her particular brand of normal, but that simply means she needs some help adjusting to that - which is where medication comes in and professionals with coping strategies. Then someone, somewhere, having confidence in her no matter what happens. Sadly though, she probably thinks she is broken and has been told most of her life she is - hence the sensitivity to it from someone she loves. I know I spend a lot of time staring at my partner in shock when he somehow manages to slam himself again at the end of a digression I have been listening to with avid interest - it is horrible watching him verbalise the response he expects and to think that even now, after three years he thinks I might say that. If he does that with me now, I can only live in fear of somehow things slipping between us and him avoiding me out of shame or fear, filling in my response with any of the thousand voices of disapproval.
Point being, I am glad she does not seem to have got to that point with you either. :)
The fact that she is trying to get her tasks done and getting angry at you interfering (even if necessary with the dishes) reminds me remarkably of when I get in the way of my partner trying to run his life. For example, I offered to help sew patches on a shirt and he heard it as me taking a task away he said he would do and is therefore a failure. I actually offered because out of the two of us, I am the one who can sew, but I respect that it is his to do whenever. If he does, awesome. If he doesn't ... equally awesome, just means I can add a few more to his weird collection.
Forbidden
Submitted by overwhelmed wif... on
Like other commenters, I was struck by how you said that you are forbidden to touch many things. It sounds like you are on the right path of taking care of yourself while being compassionate toward your wife. I'd like to add a perspective that's been working for me recently. It involves personal responsibility. My husband has many of the same qualities that your wife has, and the making a mess and then forbidding me to touch it is exactly the same. However, I started to think about what I meant when I said I was forbidden to do things. I realized that I was not willing to take the responsibility for what I wanted to do, I would rather accept my husband's insistence that he do those things. This left me feeling like a victim and living a terrible life. Since I've begun thinking about personal responsibility, however, I realized that it is impossible to be forbidden to do something. The truth was, I was unwilling to go through the difficulty of going against my husband's wishes, even though he is constantly going against my wishes. I was allowing him to dictate my behavior and then blaming him for dictating my behavior.
Your wife can not forbid you from doing the dishes. You can have a big fight over them, a series of big fights over them, ranting and raving over them, but when you say that she has forbidden you to do them, you are giving her control over you, and then you are feeling victimized by the control she exerts over you, even though you have given her that control.
For me, the answer lies in calmly, clearly, and with love doing the things I need to do for my life to work, including cleaning up "forbidden" objects. I even clean up my husband's stuff when it is in a common area. This drives him crazy. He rants and raves because it is his stuff and he thinks that means he is in the right when he says that only he should touch it. But the truth is, I disagree with him about that. If I'm afraid to have a confrontation with him over his stuff, then I'm accepting his truth over my truth. If I then feel victimized by him because of it, I'm ignoring the fact that I made myself the victim by letting him have his way.
I don't know where this will end, but one thing is clear to me: I need to take responsibility for how I want to live, even if that causes conflict in my marriage.
I liked overwhelmed-wife's
Submitted by AdeleS6845 on
Response.
Unless you are a child, no one can forbid you to do anything.
The latest ... and thank you for your input.
Submitted by mrhvmd on
AdeleS, the point you and Overwhelmed make is valid. I recognize that I must take responsibility for my actions and inaction and if I cede that choice to my wife then it is really my own fault. When I have confronted my wife on this, her response contains the following points: 1. Historically in our relationship I have taken the lead on big projects while not taking sufficient account of her input. This contention is true. I built our former home before we lived together and so I made all the choices. When she moved in the pattern had been set and I made the decisions and usually just plowed on ahead. One reason she wanted to move, I know, was to share a home that she could feel was just as much hers. 2. She feels I don't wash the dishes adequately, and I hasten through cleaning tasks so the job is done poorly or, as in a recent episode, I moved the couch to vacuum and put a hole in the upholstery. I can't deny that I pay less attention to detail than she does on these tasks. My rationale is that I have other things I want to do and if I don't do these things then they won't get done.
And now a digression: On Tuesday I had business that took me out of the house from 10am until 4pm when I needed to be home to accompany her to a doctor appointment. She was doing the dishes when I left. When I returned, she was still doing the dishes. I'm not making this up! In six hours she hadn't finished the dishes! It was time for her appointment, for which we needed to leave at 4:15. I gave her a heads up at 4:05. She reported that she would not be ready. Fine, it's her appointment. I got ready and waited for her. Since she makes several trips toward the door and back, searching for this and that, I simply waited. If I keep asking if she's ready, or if there's anything I can do to help her get ready, it makes her angry. She was already in a bad mood. Finally she was ready and headed out the back door. I headed for the car but she got angry because I wasn't walking fast enough. Then, on the way, she wanted to have a detailed debriefing/discussion on what just ensued. I know better than to try to have a discussion under such circumstances, so i demurred. A while after we returned home she was still doing the dishes. It is difficult to cook when that is going on so I asked if she had a plan for dinner. She replied that she needed to clean up first. At about 8:30 pm she went to the garden to pick peas. I decided my waiting period was over and I went to the garden to tell her I was leaving for my campsite (where I am staying) and I would get dinner on my own. She telephoned me a short time later and she told me that this arrangement doesn't work for her. I was fed up and told her all the things I'm not supposed to - She had all day to clean the dishes and hadn't done it. I suspect she was on her computer all day doing didly, or sleeping. I'm not willing to be treated the way she did when leaving for her appointment, I listed all the things I do/have done around the house and compared it to her list .... on and on. I was angry. Since she has no ability to take care of the house I took her up on a recent offer she made to move to another place. But I also said I doubt that she would have the gumption to actually take action on that. Still not done, I pointed out that she had done none of the homework and made no effort in our last counseling ... oh God I was on a roll.. I told her then if she wanted a doormat then call her Mom cuz she treats her poorly too, only her mother just takes it. The poor woman walks on egg shells around my wife, just as I do. And my wife doesn't understand why her mother seems to prefer the company of her brother and his wife! Duh. She accused me of being happy and acting as if nothing is wrong. My response was this: Of course there's something wrong, but I am not going to allow myself to lament about it all day. I prefer to find happiness in my life and sometimes you just need to choose against misery and make yourself happy - I watch my emotion, just watch it. Don't judge it. Then decide what other emotions might be available and go for one of them, or pursue an action that might engender that emotion. Sorry for the Zen-y stuff but meditation helps me. The Tao helps me. I am 68. Both my parents died in their mid 70s. I am pretty healthy and fit but I can do math. Finally, I pointed out that at least she has a diagnosis, a great big target right in front of her. that I've been researching since we got the diagnosis, while she has done little to nothing. I told her that whatever faults I have are mostly out of her control, but this issue is entirely in her control. Would she have the gumption to do something about it?
So, of course, the irony is that ADD creates the very obstacle she needs to overcome to address it. My position is that we don't at this time possess the skills necessary to tackle the contentious issues between us. Until we gain them we need to avoid such confrontations. This means living apart, especially not being together in the morning stress time when she is leaving for work, and on her days off when she has no structure to her day.
Despite what I've written here, my wife is not an ogre at heart, although I thinks she acts like one much of the time. My side of the family adores her and with good reason. She is kind to all creatures (except me, LOL). She holds high standards in those issues that touch her deeply, like animal rights and the environment. She is the very best company ever when we are doing things we both love, and there are many of those things. I love her and want to be with no one else, but if I can't be with her in a healthy way in which we promote each other's creativity, then I will live alone.
My response regarding my "forbidden" actions is that I am no longer willing to fight over them. The confrontation is worse than the issue itself. I'm also unwilling to live with them, so we are in the midst of this uneasy separation. It needs more structure but I sleep elsewhere and I try to limit our interactions to those we currently have the skills to handle. I have put a lot of hope into the couples course beginning in October. I hope that medication gives my wife some freedom from the chaos that plagues her mind.
The morning after our big row, she called me and apologized for her behavior. She recognizes that we need to engage, for now, just in those ways that aren't hurtful to each other, and, for now, avoid situations that lead to conflict. We're trying. Got it's hard.