My ADD husband and I separated at the end of April. I just couldn't take it any more after 10 years (half of which he hasn't worked). In December, I had learned he had been posting on sexual forums, even including his photo (face). I thought he would never cheat on me, but there it was. I was very specific about what I needed from him to stay in the marriage after that and, when the deadline rolled about and he had done none of the work, I had to ask him to leave. We haven't given up hope of reconciling, although I will say that I haven't seen much from his side in the way of action for improvement.
Anyway, now he is staying with his parents and his 80 year old mother just had hip replacement surgery. His father, who is even older and who also is very ADD (though not diagnosed) can't do a lot to take care of her. She wakes up at 4am every morning--has for years, decades probably--but although she needs help (at least someone conscious in case she falls!), no one will get up that early for her. The ex says it is not reasonable to ask him to do that and his father, well, who know what he is thinking. Now, he (ex) does help out in many other ways, to be sure, but that point seriously concerns me. Am I crazy, or is getting up at 4am for a couple of weeks to help your mother not too much to ask of an unemployed person who is already living in the house? He literally said that she was getting up at 4 because she was too belligerent to change her sleep schedule before her surgery. I don't believe that--I think she's just overwhelmed with going from a self-sufficient woman to someone who has been through a really physically tough year, culminating in this surgery. IMO, who cares if she is being rational or fair--she's 80 and needs help and I'm disgusted that no one in his family will put themselves out for her in this, most of all him.
I tried to explain to him last night that his saying "It's not reasonable" and "I can't get up at 4" concerns me. I tried to do it gently and to talk about my feelings and not make him out to be a monster or anything remotely bad. I said that maybe she just needs someone to just be there for her, rational or not, like we all do sometimes. Very non-judgmental--just trying to get him to be compassionate for her needs. Didn't work. He got angry.
If we are to have any hope of reconciling, I need to know that he will be there for me. If he won't be there for his own mother when she really needs him because HE has decided that she is being unreasonable (judging her although he can't bear to be judged himself!), then, well, what about if I got sick and needed him? How am I supposed to believe that he won't judge whether I am being reasonable? I don't think that should even be a factor--if you love someone, you are supposed to be there for that person without judging whether or not what they are asking is reasonable, especially in the case of medical issues.
Am I being unreasonable? I really don't know anymore...
not unreasonable at all . . .
Submitted by E-Bo on
I don't have any advice, but I don't think you're being unreasonable at all. The problem here is that you want him to do things the way you think he should, and you're vested in that because his performance during this time in your lives is crucial to your decision to reconcile or not. As much as you may want him to do things a certian way, he may not, and you have to accept that and make your decision accordingly.
The concern of whether or not he will be there for you if needed is a valid one (and one I can surely relate to), but reality is you may never truly know unless the situation arises. But, situations like these, with his own mother (who, if he's like my DH, is the end-all), sure do give some indication.
I feel your pain . . .
may not be a question of reasonable
Submitted by arwen on
Lili, I don't think you are being unreasonable about the fundamental concept of needing your partner to support you when you are having problems. That's what partnership is all about. But the reality is that some folks with ADD can't handle the kind of support you may want or need in some kinds of situations. My husband is very supportive when I get migraines, or in helping me with a chronic leg problem I have, he understands them. But when I had a bad case of Lyme disease, he just couldn't understand that I found it depressing to be off my feet for weeks, with all kinds of housework not getting done while I recuperated, and bored out of my skull, wanting company and comfort. He felt if the house got dirty and the dishes stacked up, so what? I'd be back on my feet eventually and I'd take care of them then, and in the meantime if the dishes ran out he'd buy disposable stuff or eat takeout. My boss had made a laptop computer available to me so I could work from home, so how could I possibly be bored? And because he couldn't understand my feelings, he ignored them (to him, if he can't understand something, well, it just isn't "real"), and I got no support. I tried to explain it to him, and he tried to understand, but we just couldn't communicate on this. When you *can't* see the other person's point of view at all, what's "reasonable" gets hard to define. And it's very difficult to be supportive of something you don't understand at all. Is it reasonable to expect a person to ignore his or her own value system "just because" you think your viewpoint is better? My own perspective is that sometimes it is (when there is great danger or risk involved, usually crisis situations) and at other times it really isn't.
I've come to terms with the fact that I can't truly depend on my own spouse for anything, but I'm the first to say that it's not my concept of real partnership. That said, how many of us ever do get exactly what we want in life? My spouse can only be trusted up to a point, and is frequently irritating and thoughtless, with a tendency to create all kinds of problems for me that I really should not have to deal with -- but he has worked hard to improve, does continue to try to improve and he also has many loveable aspects -- and in my entire life I have only met one other man that I *might* rather have been married to. Many other men have other problems that I think are worse than my spouse's ADD (like my own father, who is incapable of admitting error, is inflexible and stubborn, and who is certain of his own superiority over the rest of the world, with the possible exception of Stephen Hawkings -- no, this man is definitely *not* reasonable, but he also definitely does not have ADD). I couldn't stand to be married for a week to somebody like that (my mother puts up with it because sadly she is convinced she really is as dumb as he treats her).
I never felt that I *needed* a partner in order to be able to manage in life, so for me, I just need to make sure the problems are contained adequately, and enjoy the loveable parts. It's less than ideal. I can live with that. What's OK for me may not suit anyone else -- only you can decide where to "draw the line" with your ex.
Regarding your ex's mom's situation, you need to be aware that some folks with ADD who are on meds really do find it exceptionally difficult to wake in the night. Both my husband and son need a lot more sleep and are much harder to rouse in the early hours when they are taking ADD medication than when not. You don't say whether your husband is on ADD meds or not, so I don't know whether this might apply to him. But perhaps you should bear it in mind.
I to do not think you are
Submitted by optomistic on
I to do not think you are unreasonable. I have been married to my husband for 13 yrs and we have been seperated since January of this year. He had to stop drinking to live with some friends and he has done some unreasonable things.He stil drinks occasionaly and smokes dope. although he finally has a job and is paying me child support thats a big help but thats about it. He hasn't helped much at all. I still can't do anything right and his way of disciplining the kids is scream and yell at them when they do something wrong and blame it on me that I should own up to my responsibilities. So really I see no chance of reconciliation as of now. He won't even take the time to talk with me about saving our house which is going into foreclosure for the 2nd time. I emailed him the info. Don't expect any heavy duty changes soon. reconciliation can take years. As far as your mom in law isn't there a nurse that can come? my husband wakes up at 5:00 am to go to work, but everybody is different.Its a crime that no one helps in the family. sorry about your seperation I hope you won't end up a statistic..
Will He Be There For Me?
Submitted by MelissaOrlov on
His relationship with his parents may or may not be an indicator of whether or not he could be there for you. My husband is deplorable at dealing with his mother, but is great helping me when I am really, truly sick. (I used to have your exact worry, by the way, and we had many arguments over the topic...but in the end, I decided that it wasn't the issue to hang my marriage on).
I'm sympathetic to people who can't get up at very early hours. When we had our first child I was essentially physically incapable of doing the 4am feeding and getting through the remainder of my day in any sane way. My husband had to take that one else the entire family was a mess. This, in spite of the fact that I'm generally a "morning" person. And in spite of the fact that I was on maternity leave and therefore not working at the time.
Elderly people often don't sleep well, and you acknowledge this when you say she's had this pattern for about a decade. Her getting up early doesn't mean she needs attendance by another person in the household at 4 a.m. She can wake up and read a book, watch movies, do needlework projects, etc. as long as the pathway to getting to the restroom is a clear one and doesn't involve stairs. If that doesn't work, a night nurse who comes on duty around that time might be able to help for a few hours (and might even be covered by insurance if she has mobility issues). Or, she can get an alarm device to hang around her neck - if she falls she can press it to call the phone number and wake up her husband (or son), who can help her. In other words, there are many potential solutions to your mother-in-law's current issues...your husband helping her at 4am is only one of them.
I understand your feelings completely, having had them myself. Looking back on it, though, it's clear that my concerns about my husband's lack of attention to his mother were really concerns about my husband's ability to be there for me. And now that our relationship is fine he has proven that he's more than capable of being there for me in spite of his behavior towards his mother. One does not always mirror the other.
Also, and I don't mean this to be critical, though when written down it may come across this way (it's not, trust me!), be very careful of making gross moralistic generalizations. You say "if you love someone, you are supposed to be there for that person without judging whether or not what they are asking is reasonable, especially in the case of medical issues". By that logic, you and your husband should still be together, for he has medical issues and you would therefore "be there for him without judging whether or not he's being reasonable". Your statement sounds reasonable on the surface, but in reality is not the way we all live our lives. We make judgements about our boundaries and our situations all the time and it is generally unhealthy to "be there for someone no matter what" - as you've discovered.
Anyway, I have found it best to remove myself from worrying about my husband's relationship with his mother and think about other ways to help her address her needs - you will likely benefit from concentrating on the more central issues in your relationship - how does he treat YOU now? Are the two of you ever going to be able to find the middle ground you need to successfully stay together? How can you better see him as an individual unique from you - one who makes his own decisions about his life? How can you improve your abilities to resolve conflicts?
Particularly as you are separated, he has a right to push back when you insist that he treat his mother a specific way - that's really his business, not yours. A better approach if you feel you must be involved would be to plant to alternative solutions in his head - once - and move on.
Hope this gives you a slightly different perspective. With good wishes for your success...
Melissa: You and I have butt
Submitted by Lili (not verified) on
Melissa:
You and I have butt heads before and we are again. I find your comments to be judgmental, non-productive, and factually incorrect. She did require actual, physical assistance at 4am. An alarm or whatever was not a reasonable option. The fact that NO ONE (there are 3 adult children in this city, none of whom is employed though one is a home-schooling mother) would put themselves out by getting up early for just a few days was and is shocking to me.
I never insisted on anything from him. As I said, I talked to him about how I felt (afraid he wouldn't be there for me), exactly as our counselor (past) had suggested. I did not blame or accuse. There was nothing for him to "push back" about. The comment about judging people that I made was because HE (like his ADD father) judges all the time--if he decides someone's (not just mine) feelings aren't "legitimate" he openly ignores and discounts them. In his world, people's feelings are only valid if he himself decides they are. You have it backwards. I meant, he should not judge whether or not she is in pain or scared or whatever, but just believe his mother when she expresses any of these things, and act accordingly.
The other comments were supportive even when they had difficult things to share, things I might not like to read, but only yours made me angry.
for lili
Submitted by MelissaOrlov on
If you read your original post carefully you will see that your words do not say that she needed physical help - in fact they suggest that she didn't really need help, only that she needed someone to be conscious in case she fell which, as a comment suggests anger more than need of assistance. One could say that of just about any elderly person and, as a statement it does not clearly say "this woman needs special assistance for a few days".
In this case, if she is in need of actual physical assistance for a few days then by all means someone in the family should help out. My guess (with little info) is that your suggesting that he do something isn't a great motivator for change for him right now, so if there is another person who might be able to intervene, it might be more effective (doctor, close family friend, siblings, cousins, etc?)
In the meantime, though you are angry at my response to your question about your mother in law since it wasn't what you expected, you might still try to put aside your anger and see if any of my other words make sense. I may not have all of the information (since it wasn't clearly provided) but I do have a fair amount of experience with ADD, and non-ADD spouse behavior at this point.
Melissa: YOU need to read my
Submitted by Lili (not verified) on
Melissa: YOU need to read my words. I said, clearly, that she had just had hip replacement surgery. Are you saying that you didn't think that would include needing physical assistance? Seriously?
I believe you sincerely mean to help, but somehow you repeatedly are less-than-helpful to my inquiries. I have asked others to read some of the posts and they agree. It is like you don't slow down and read my actual words or something--you speak to issues I didn't bring up. Like here, my post originally wasn't about my mother-in-law, it was about whether I was nuts for thinking that someone should have helped her WITHOUT judging whether her need was real or significant or whatever. It was about me and my feelings. After so long with my (ex)husband, I question my logic and rationality sometimes when he and I interact. I needed support.
Your responses have helped me to feel even more isolated and crazy. Am I writing in Chinese? Am I unintelligible? I don't believe so as others have written compassionate responses. I am deeply grateful for those.
I really don't get it. You write very helpful and compassionate responses to others. But for some reason, not to my posts usually. Did I do something to make you dislike me?
Dislike?
Submitted by MelissaOrlov on
Lili - of COURSE I don't dislike you! I don't even know you, and you haven't done anything that would draw my ire except, perhaps, communicate less clearly than you realize then get angry with me for "misinterpreting" your words (and I'm not too fond of being insulted, either, as you might guess...but so be it). You see that your post was clear because you know what you wanted to say and believe that you said it (and those people you ask whether or not it was clear may also know what your situation is more intimately than me?) But saying "I said that maybe she just needs someone to just be there for her, rational or not, like we all do sometimes" is simply not the same thing as "I suggested that since she needs help getting out of bed he should be there for her."
One of the reasons I am effective at writing comments for people here is that I read between the lines...and sometimes consciously try to help people see things in what they are writing and thinking that they themselves don't readily see. The things they don't see are often things that they feel should be interpretted a certain way because they interpret them that way...when in fact their spouse sees things quite differently. It's not "hiding" from something, it's just a rut/pattern they've gotten into. When I do that effectively, then it really helps change perspective. When I miss, as I seem to do with you for some reason, it can make them mad. Sometimes I'm on target and they get mad anyway because they aren't ready to hear what I'm saying. You've probably seen this pattern in your own relationship.
In any event, the points I was trying to make for you were:
While you may be outraged at how he is treating his mother (rightly so, by the way) just as I was once outraged by how my husband dealt with his mother, it isn't as relevant for how you are thinking about your relationship as you think. How he treats his mother is complexly related to his relationship with her/her responses/their past. While some of his attitudes from that relationship may "spill over" into your relationship, your relationship is nonetheless different from that one. How he treats YOU is the issue here...make sure your fear about what you see in the other relationship doesn't color what you are able to receive in your own.
You are now separated. While you may have an opinion about how he treats his mother, your best bet is to not comment upon it more than once. If she needs an advocate and he gets mad about your "interference" in his business then look for other solutions - other advocates, people who can be hired for a few days...or just accept that she is HIS mother, not yours, and no amount of outrage will make him suddenly empathetic to her needs. In fact, your outrage simply serves to reinforce to him that you don't think he's worthy/good/helpful thus moving you further from acheiving your own goals. You can pick your battles as you decide whether or not you will reunite - given the complexities of parent/child relationships I wouldn't recommend hanging your hat on this one. (You don't say overtly that you've done this here, only that you fear that his treatment of his mother also means he'll never be able to take care of you, so this is a form of anticipated advice...)
Even if you weren't separated, his relationship with his mother is his business. You may wish that he did a better job at it, but it is what it is. Sounds as if none of the siblings is interested in "helping out", which suggests (again, I don't have full information here) that there are lots of issues in this family, not just with your husband. In my opinion, you would do yourself a favor by focusing on your relationship with your husband (and, perhaps, yourself??) not on his family dynamics.
You say that I ignored the main point of your email, which was your feelings. Here are the exact words that you wrote:
"If we are to have any hope of reconciling, I need to know that he will be there for me. If he won't be there for his own mother when she really needs him because HE has decided that she is being unreasonable (judging her although he can't bear to be judged himself!), then, well, what about if I got sick and needed him? How am I supposed to believe that he won't judge whether I am being reasonable? I don't think that should even be a factor--if you love someone, you are supposed to be there for that person without judging whether or not what they are asking is reasonable, especially in the case of medical issues.
Am I being unreasonable? I really don't know anymore... "
Here are the first words of my response which address your question head on:
"His relationship with his parents may or may not be an indicator of whether or not he could be there for you. My husband is deplorable at dealing with his mother, but is great helping me when I am really, truly sick. (I used to have your exact worry, by the way, and we had many arguments over the topic...but in the end, I decided that it wasn't the issue to hang my marriage on)." I go on to give you some ideas and background, then get back to your feelings:
"I understand your feelings completely, having had them myself. Looking back on it, though, it's clear that my concerns about my husband's lack of attention to his mother were really concerns about my husband's ability to be there for me. And now that our relationship is fine he has proven that he's more than capable of being there for me in spite of his behavior towards his mother. One does not always mirror the other."
What I was trying to tell you, as clearly as I could, was that his relationship with his mother is a different relationship than his relationship with you.
Now, I can see that this isn't the response you were looking for, but it is a legitimate response that addresses head on exactly what you say your concerns are and might give you another way to look at your situation.