Hi everyone,
In 2011, I first posted here about my ADD wife and feeling terribly unhappy about our marriage. Her refusal to take responsibility for her ADD and my terribly unhelpful responses to her really ruined the marriage. My original post is here.
I wanted to give you an update on what happened after, especially since many of you are likely thinking about whether divorce is the best option for you. Of course, I can't tell you objectively that divorce is the best option, but I can tell you my experience of divorcing and moving on.
In March 2012, I filed for divorce. It was crushing. I honestly hadn't remembered how terrible I felt until I decided to look back on the posts I'd written here. (I had pretty much abandoned this site after the divorce was almost final.) As I limped along, I got into another relationship, one with a woman nearly 15 years older than me. I loved her very much but because we could never have a traditional family, I was unhappy; yet I was also emotionally weak and unable to leave her and just be single. Her love felt wonderful and our connection was great, but I was always mourning the family I'd never have.
So guess what? Guilt and bad coping mechanisms kept me in an unsatisfactory relationship until August 2019. Yikes. So, count 'em: that's 2002-2012 with wife, then 2012-2019 with girlfriend. Seventeen years of unsatisfactory relationships. I'm not saying that post-marriage relationship was terrible. But I am saying that I rushed into something that left something missing.
What would I have done differently? After I made the decision to divorce, I should have stayed single and nixed any romantic entanglements, as lonely as I would have felt. I should have done therapy often, perhaps twice a week, and made a point to sit with my sadness and accept it. I should have cultivated friendships with other guys and NOT buried myself in starting a nonprofit. I should have thought more about my values and not compromised on big things (if you want kids, don't tell yourself you don't want kids just because you love someone--love won't carry your relationship if it's competing with regret for closed-off opportunities).
Ultimately, though, I do not miss my ADD ex-wife or regret the decision to divorce her AT ALL. We have not spoken since she drove away in June 2012, and going no-contact was super helpful. The ADD would have been a massive headache my whole damn life. I will say that dating and then living with someone who does not have ADD feels like a dream come true, especially if they are clean and competent at running their own life independently. It'll feel weird in the most delightful way to have a partner who doesn't need constant, toddler-level supervision, and you'll love it at first, and then you'll take it for granted, which is kind of a good place to be, IMHO.
Also, please be aware that caring for an ADD-stricken partner can give your life purpose, even if you HATE doing it. So when you give up the job of full-time caregiver, you may feel void of purpose. Think long and hard about how you want to spend your time and make meaning of your life before you begin your next big thing. Seek therapy on this point. Make sure that thing, whatever it is, helps you address your own issues and doesn't distract you from them.
Happy to answer questions or address comments if you have 'em.
Please go to therapy
Submitted by Hello@0 on
Dear Angry,
Kindness is the most desired trait in a partner, and strangely kindness to others as well as ourselves has a way of fueling ourselves. “Toddler-like supervision” shows the level of your own contempt toward your ex (John Gottman) which is just as miserable to live with if not more than a toddler as it can get abusive either in passive aggression or aggression I know plenty of ADHD people who are much much more than this specific problem in good and bad traits. You will never find a woman that doesn’t need patience and kindness, disability or not. Therapy is a good idea, cause right now, honestly, you sound like a hateful guy who has anger problems.
Thanks for the suggestion
Submitted by losingpatience on
It's kind of amazing how the anger goes away when your spouse doesn't actually need to be supervised. I'm not unusual here, Hello@O. Browse the blog. ADD spouses are constantly driving Non-ADD spouses to the edge of sanity and provoking uncharacteristic anger. I think you're implying some terrible (and frankly unfair) things.
I'm in therapy, but anger isn't a thing my therapist thinks I struggle with. Grief for having made bad choices (my marriage to an ADD spouse) is something we talk about often. Thanks for the helpful suggestion.
Angry?
Submitted by AdeleS6845 on
The original poster of this forum, losingpatience does not sound angry. He is only offering up what happened to him after divorcing his ADHD spouse.
In his defense, he is stating what his life is now like in a relationship minus the ADHD affect. His reference to "Toddler like supervision" was something that many Nons on this site resort to out of frustration, when living with an ADHD partner who has not owned up to their behavior or responsibilies. As c ur self has often mentioned in his posts, enabling, mothering, nagging does not work. When you know better, you can stop behaving like a parent and let go, allowing them to be who they are. I'm sure losingpatience was frustrated by his spouse's inability/refusal to see how her behavior was affecting others. Especially when she continued to be dismissed from jobs because her behavior affected her work. (One cannot help someone who refuses to help themselves.)
Losingpatience , I hear you when you mention living with grief. I felt badly after divorcing my husband of 17 years. I beat myself up for wasting 17 years on a man who was incapable of being what a husband should be to his wife. I grieved my youth, and the years I couldn't get back. I, too was in counseling, and am much better for it.
I read his original post, and am happy he has moved on.
Your hindsight is helpful
Submitted by 1Melody1 on
Hi LP - this post is helpful to me as someone in a long-term marriage. My spouse has ADHD and I believe divorce is inevitable. Sometimes I wonder if I'm fantasizing about how "after" might feel. I have been in this so long. It helps me unbelievably when people on the other side as you are share their experiences.
Normal response to abnormal
Submitted by vabeachgal on
I have almost no feelings of anger in my life after having been divorced and living on my own for two years. As the non, I am calm now. I am not on edge all the time, waiting for the other shoe to drop or something to go wrong. I'm myself again. It was horrible wondering what the impulsiveness would cause or what kind of mess I would have to clean up. It was horrible not being able to depend on my partner and, unfortunately, anger was the result.
I've come to view my previous anger and explosiveness as (1) a build up of negative emotions and being in a situation without resolution and therefore a lot of frustration, and (2) a normal, but not necessarily healthy response to very abnormal partnership circumstances.
No one wants supervise another adult to that kind of extent. The answer isn't 100% anger management on the part of the non but also consistent work on the part of the ADD partner.
Yes, my ex husband deserved kindness and respect, but then, so did I.
I think that characterizing anger as the root of the problems a la Gottman doesn't take into account the full picture of the situation or the source of the feelings of anger and resentment.
I agree that I've struggled with shame and guilt, but overcoming the anger wasn't something I had to work on once removed from the situation.
Anger
Submitted by Hello@0 on
To the “nons”,
So if ADHD people require “toddler like” supervision, do you pass them over to a qualified caregiver when you divorce them? How do they survive without you?
I can understand being angry and hurt, not getting needs met the way you expect them to be met, but comparing an adult with a toddler is demeaning and contemptuous and not accurate. Rest assured everyone is a critic and everyone can be critiqued in a demeaning way when that specific human fails to meet a need of another.
I am ADD and my ex husband was too. There were plenty of ADD blunders in our marriage but I don’t see us as toddlers. I had a neuropsych evaluation after a serious self questioning period about a year ago and was told that not only do I have attention problems but had above average intelligence in other areas. Our brains do much more than pay attention, although attention is very important. I suspect this is why I have been able to compensate doing jobs I was told I was not able to do by the woman I was diagnosed by. As I always suspected, I have a history of being both dumb and smart.
Reducing your spouse or ex spouses to a disability in one part of their brain is throwing out the gifts that they may have in other areas of their brain. But “nons” don’t really think outside the box much, do they?
If you want someone just like you, don’t marry us. Marry yourself, and soon you will be making whiny demeaning comments about that person too. “Nons” don’t meet your every intimate need like God either, no human does.
Missing the point?
Submitted by losingpatience on
Hey Hello@0,
I see you're fixated on the "toddler-like" comment and find it offensive. It's true that I didn't actually have to change my wife's diapers and keep her from walking into traffic. You win that point (though this is not about winning).
I did, however, have to keep her from burning dinners or breaking things, and lots of other things that I've blocked out of my memory because it's been more than eight years since I had to deal with anything like that.
I think your questions were rhetorical, but I'm going to take them at face value. You asked: "So if ADHD people require “toddler like” supervision, do you pass them over to a qualified caregiver when you divorce them?" Divorce was in large part the final way of saying, "You are no longer my responsibility." In my wife's case, she moved to Pennsylvania to live close to her parents, who likely behaved as they did when she was a child and young adult (in college and immediately post-college): as micromanagers of the details of her life. She did not choose to manage her ADD while she was married to me. Whether she chose to manage it after the marriage ended or just lean on someone else is unknown to me. I never attempted to find out. Again, she was no longer my problem. I had let go, which was the healthiest thing for me to do.
You asked: "How do they survive without you?" I don't know. Likely she found someone else to take control of her life--hopefully someone who actually enjoyed it, if that is indeed the case.
"If you want someone just like you, don’t marry us." I could write paragraphs about how unhelpful this sentence is. If the people using adhdmarriage.com knew going into the marriage what ADD was like, they likely wouldn't marry people with ADD. I know I certainly wouldn't. I didn't know my wife had it before we married. I thought all the silly, absent-minded things she did could be corrected. I was wrong. A lot of people find themselves in situations similar to mine and then they struggle with how to move forward. Sometimes divorce is the best option. If you think Non-ADD people choose partners knowing they have ADD and THEN complain about all those things, I think it's safe to say you ought to check that premise.
"Marry yourself, and soon you will be making whiny demeaning comments about that person too." In my experience, dating someone who does not have ADD actually is a lot better, and I never ended up complaining about the same things or making demeaning comments. I appreciated our similar approaches to life. Your comment implies that I am perpetually dissatisfied and the problems come from within me. This is false. I have my problems, but my experience also tells me that being with someone who has ADD makes me sad in a way that being with someone without ADD does not.
I say this with kindness, Hello@0: If you have ADD and you're hurt by some of the descriptions of ADD spouses on this site, I wouldn't blame you. In retrospect, I realize how sad the whole experience of marriage was for my wife--to struggle with ADD and lose a spouse over it. I don't say this to hurt anyone. This website is a place to vent, and years later, I find remembering the frustration of the marriage is a way to cope with the loss. It doesn't make me or her a bad person. Humans are what they are--emotional, not entirely rational. I encourage you to acknowledge that ADD spouses cause anger sometimes, that such a reaction is natural, and the blame game is not helpful.
Blanket Statements
Submitted by vabeachgal on
I don't consider ADD/ADHD to be a disability any more than I consider ADD/ADHD people to have a corner on the above average intelligence market. I wish I had a dollar or two for every time I heard that comment with the implication that everyone else is stupid and ADD/ADHD implies brilliance not understood. We all bring our gifts to this world. I think your implication is that non's are deficient in some way.
Survive without us? Sure. My ex husband is surviving without me. Eating fast food 3 times a day, living in his friend's spare bedroom and buying a car worth his annual salary while carrying a very healthy five figure amount of debt. He worries about going out to the local bar. He is doing just fine regressing to about age 25 as a 57 year old.
My ex husband was a stellar employee but a very poor spouse and parent.
Actually, I have met the extroverted version of my introverted self. It is unbelievable how good it feels to be understood and appreciated. It's great to have a self sufficient person at my side. I don't have to follow up. On anything. We work well together - it's balanced. If that's what you mean by "marrying myself" I'll take it in a New York second. And I will marry him. And no, I don't expect him to fulfill all of my earthly and spiritual requirements any more than he does me.
I disagree. I don't make whiny demands. I have made and do make adult demands.
My brain should have been able to do more than clean up messes.
I can literally say that all of my closest friends, save one, are ADD as hell and I adore them and their gifts beyond measure. But, they don't hijack my life or treat me like crap either.
I don't see my ex husband as a toddler, but as someone who lacked some very specific adult skills. Do I need to provide examples? Impulsivity is NOT an excuse for inappropriate relations with others or going on dating sites while married or racking up five figures worth of debt every two years without disclosure or trying to refi your home without your permission or lying or being unable to come AT ALL close to being a 50% partner in family and home responsibilities.
You are the one who sounds angry and bitter. I am not angry or bitter anymore. I am relieved. I am relieved because as an individual I don't spend my days thinking about how I can eff up my days. Married to my ex-husband, I had no control over how he effed up my days and my future.
My love was diagnosed as a non-neurotypical in high school, so don't throw stones. What he DID do was learn and adapt. He is also very successful and doing things people told him he couldn't do, but he isn't taking someone else hostage in his life by choosing poor actions without considering the other party. He takes personal responsibility and is self aware.
The blanket statement that non's never think out of the box is a cop out. How can you possibly assume that every neurotypical person is devoid of creativity or that only ADD/ADHD people are responsible for creativity and out of the box thinking? Just like you shouldn't assume that non's aren't adults who aren't capable of living life without making whiny and demeaning demands.
WOW
Submitted by AdeleS6845 on
WOW...Just WOW.
I certainly didn't mean for my post in defense of losingpatience to set off a shitstorm, but here we are. I agree with what Vabeachgal when it comes to ADD/ADHD people having the market cornered on intelligence. We all have unique gifts and talents. I don't know how many times I've heard my fiance' speak of his coworkers, using comments like "high functioning", and "highly intelligent", like the rest of us are dumb. Intelligence does not mean your life can't be just as effed up as everyone else's. My sister's ex husband is brilliant, probably has a genius IQ, but totally clueless when it comes to things the rest of us would consider "common sense".
I digress.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that each of us is unique. My ex husband did not have ADD/ADHD. He was abusive and narcissistic. Worked hard at his job, but was otherwise lazy. Didn't do anything around the house and spent minimal time with our two children. The one time we went to counseling, the therapist labeled me "an angry person". She didn't know me from Adam. That was her first and only time meeting me. Of course I was angry. Being married to an abusive and manipulative person could make anyone angry. I was angry at him for treating me like garbage and at myself for wasting my life.
I am now engaged to a wonderful man who happens to have ADHD. He was diagnosed as a child. Cognitive behavioral therapy really helped him. We have a true partnership. He is a wonderful cook, has taught himself to play guitar, banjo and the mandolin. He is like no one else I've ever been with. I don't expect anyone to meet my needs but me. That said, I do have requirements in a relationship, and I set boundaries and stick to them. I don't whine. It was not allowed in my home growing up. (lol)
Why would I want to marry someone like me? That would be boring, and besides there is no one like me.
Your comments resonate with me!
Submitted by losingpatience on
You wrote: "It was horrible wondering what the impulsiveness would cause or what kind of mess I would have to clean up. It was horrible not being able to depend on my partner and, unfortunately, anger was the result." YES! 1000x yes. This is what life was like for me, too, and I don't miss that one single bit.
I think the Gottman-esque contempt did creep in for me. I had contempt for her behavior. I wanted to be able to admire my partner's qualities, but I couldn't. I felt guilty that I couldn't twist my mind into a position where I would admire her. It sucked. Accepting that I couldn't feel that admiration, that I would always be on edge because of her behavior, was the first step towards healing. Thank you SO MUCH for sharing your story. Be well.
Moving on was a good decision
Submitted by sickandtired on
I totally agree with you, losingpatience! I was with my ex boyfriend for almost 12 years, and I wanted to get out after the first two years. He became very dependent on me by quitting his job after only living with me two months. No amount of hinting, asking, nagging or demanding would make him go find another job. He was a constant emotional rollercoaster, and he made my previously normal life total hell! He was moody, paranoid, and constantly complaining, while not lifting a finger to help himself or attempt to solve his own problems. It’s been over 5 years since I ended the relationship, and he STILL complains to me with manifesto long emails (50+ Paragraphs long) with absolutely no insight how he causes his own problems. He still blames me for his emotional and financial problems, even though he has been on his own for five years! It’s not my problem any more. You were right to get out of a relationship that was so one sided and so stressful for both of you. I stayed as long as I did because he would threaten suicide every time I tried to break up with him. He knew my sister had committed suicide years before, and used my greatest tragedy to manipulate me. Getting out and getting your life back is the healthy thing to do. It really resonated with me when you said being with a normal person after your divorce was a dream come true. Isn’t it wonderful to no longer feel responsible for them, no longer having to worry about them doing impulsive, dangerous, costly, embarrassing, self destructive, hurtful things while constantly blaming YOU??? We all deserve better than this. I feel sorry for all of the kind folks on here who stay due to obligation, religious beliefs, for the kids, or the misguided idea that they should stay in such a dysfunctional relationship out of fear of the unknown. There are great compassionate, fun, loving and reliable partners out there for all of you if you would just let go of the futile idea that you can “fix” or change an ADHD person. I really think they are better off single than being in a relationship with another person whose needs they are totally blind to.
Yes, I became contemptuous,
Submitted by vabeachgal on
Yes, I became contemptuous, but so did he.
All of this attributes to ADHD?
Submitted by Hello@0 on
Sounds like all of you have been to awful places... I’m happy you guys have found horizons and ways to meet your needs in more satisfying ways in real time. It’s interesting how many things a DSM 4 diagnoses can mean to different people. To many it sounds like a grand excuse to exploit others.
The neuroscientist Dr Caroline Leaf says this ADHD is very over diagnosed and that the diagnostic tools are too vague. Curious if any of you have explored her work and alternative approach?
“Nons”
Submitted by Hello@0 on
Also, I don’t think “Nons” are more deficient, I was just being sarcastic about some assumptions that are thrown around about strengths connected to this diagnosis. The brain of each of us is so complex and it’s development is dependent on not just nature but how we take care of it that I get annoyed with so many of life’s problems being blamed on this one diagnoses... as if it’s something we have little power over. I think people have a lot more control over their minds then they perceive, they just don’t have the faith, support, persistence and methods to make the neuro changes needed for that change. Change is possible with focus and work but most people don’t change very much. It’s sad when not changes causes so much pain.