I did this exercise ( specific to my reactions and specific to my wife ) I did this immediately after an exchange I had with her this morning where I got really pissed off, and I wanted to understand it better. Namely for myself, but also, identifying what I have found so "dishonest" for lack of a better word. And since our T told us or assigned us to identify what we "don't want"....this is in part following through with that, but also recognizing more that goes with it. I did a lot of research recently on the difference between men and women with ADHD and the coi-morbid likely's that go with it and it was extremely valuable for me to see what those differences are, with are quite pronounced in certain areas. Recognizing in a sense, what my wife "can't help" or "can't just stop" or go away, at least gives me some ideas of what I should not expect, than learn to deal and live with my own reactions and responses. My reactions are usually not tied to any grudge or not letting go....it has more to do with expecting "respect" in an on going basis....looking forward not backwardly;.....but realizing that I'm just not going to get what I want ( probably ever ) so I might as well learn to let go of that too. At least for now, but still working on exactly what to do with it? I still don't know the exact right or wrong thing to do with this in the moment...but today I decided to play both roles for as...as a me3ans to give it back to her which really didn't work...but it did make me feel a little better. As I do and as she does....nothing was different until I had finished doing a favor for her by attempting to fix the window on her car which has been acting up. When I got it to a place where I figured out what was wrong, I put a band aide on it and got it working enough as long as she didn't do anything to make it worse. When I started to tell her what not to do, she cut me off and I was fine with that, but then said......"And thank you for taking the time to do that and figure out what was wrong. Thank you for fixing that for me, and thank you for your efforts" I've decided to validate myself out loud to her since I will never get that from her. He response to me was "like I do for you all the time with the dogs....you were the last person to use the car"..............as if, I broke the window?? It was like ( again ) WTF is wrong with you!!!!! errrrrrrrr!!!! And I basically said "Fuck you, never ask me to do anything for you again, and don;t do anything for me!! Period" That was not a good response, but I was rather pissed at hers even though I did set that up as an experiment and I kind of new already what I mgith get? I just wanted to hear it again, to see exactly what words would come out of her mouth, so I could gto identify what it was, that was really most offensive about that for me. I rarely get gratitude for these things since as she see's it, I owe her which is her distorted perspection. But the blaming for breaking a power window which hasn't been working correctly for months, was beyond ridiculous, saying "you were the last one to use it" The fact is, it's her car.....I drive it, or use it about 20% of 100% of use, between the two of us? It's this kind of backwards logic and rediculous statements that really upset me since they come at me in a particular way. By running through this little exercise....I figured out which way that is and why that makes me so mad at times. I'll jnclude the data sheet that gave me some real hard evidence to think about more as time goes on.
https://bmcpsychiatry.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-244X-13-298
The Art of Insult....a cowardly and dishonest way of speaking to people. Say what you mean, and quit hiding behind your words and come right out and say it, instead of beating around the bush while that person is in the bush themselves. I mean really. If your going to hit someone with a stick, grow a pair and hit them for crying out loud ! Instead of taking the stick, and beating around the bush their in. This is exactly what I witnessed my 3 year old nephew do with his 1 year old little brother when my sister wasn't looking but I was watching him out of the corner of my eye.
My 3 year old nephew, was sitting next to her little brother in his car seat carrier and my sister was getting the car ready to take them to the store. He had this big plastic ( hollow ) hammer and he was ( pretending to ) play with it, hitting it against the cement floor of the garage. As I watched him out of the corner of my eye, with each hit of the hammer, the hammer would move closer and closer to his little brother until it finally landed square on top of his little brothers head. LOL And of course. his little brother started crying, my sister had to grab him off the floor and put him in the car and my 3 year old nephew was then reprimanded but not without first denying it with a "who me, I didn't do anything" look on his face. Like "I was just playing with my hammer and somehow it slipped and hit my little brother on the head while it was still in my hand." I took my sister aside out of ear shot and told her what I saw and she said " YES!!! I know. I have to watch him all the time because he will do that when ever he has a chance. He is going through that stage where he doesn't like the attention (Sam) is getting since he has never had to share my attention with anyone and he doesn't like it when (Sam) gets more than him at times. Especially when he knows that ( Sam ) needs help and he doesn't like this and I have to do things for ( Sam) and I don't have to do them for him" ( paraphrasing )
OMG!!! This is it. I wasn't born yesterday ( you know ). LOL I did this as an excersise, to identify what I've been reacting to that I could not put into words exactly, but in light of what I read in an article comparing genders ( boys & girls ) with ADHD and co-morbid conditions that can appear later in life....I think I have pretty much pin-pointed the difference that I am seeing between myself and my wife...and exactly what I feel the problem is between us and my triggers more importantly. When someone gives me a gift, and I don't want it, I don't deserve it, or it doesn't belong to me.....I defintely will react in some way with an emotional response and the resulting ( conduct ) or behavior that will follow suit. As I was reminded of this, along with me being predominanently-hyperactive....but still combined at a ratio or percentage....I'd say I'm about 80 / 20 % on my self measurement scale ( hyper / inattentive ) which is exactly what I did in my past in my behaviors for the most part. Conduct behaviors w/ some ODD....but mostly....conduct problems and far less ODD. ODD was very much on the mild end and I was much more procatively impulsive...and far less retroactively aggressive with any stong need to hit back or punish. I have never had a stong need to "hurt back" and that is the curious difference that find most distasteful with my wife. The way she goes about it, reminds me very much of my 3 year old nephew which is her intention....no doubt. It's not just negativity.....it's negativity with a need for revenge and that is what I am most focused on, since that is not something I own. It really hasn't been something I own, but when push comes to shove....when I own it, I don't beat around the bush in what I see as...a cowardly chicken shit kind of way. In a metaphorical sense.....if I'm going to hit you, you'll know it!!! ( in your face mother fucker......pow, right in the kisser!!! lol ) And then some. No beating around the bush on that one. In a push comes to shove adversarily contest, I have an amazing ability for economy of words and getting right to the point. Out in the open , no pretentious, back stabbing and then playing the "who me, I didn't do anything wrong" ( Bullshit, as if my 3 year old nephew did nothing wrong!!! It didn't hurt his little brother really, but it scared him and it did hurt a little and he was defenseless strapped in his car seat completely vulnerable which was why he picked that time to do it. I call Bullshit on that, even in the adult, more sophisticated version. It's all the same to me, and that is precisely the point. It is, all the same to me, and I can't see any difference? I have strong reactions and emotional responses to this that trigger me into bad behavior and where I have to stop myself from doing what come naturally in this case )
And that is exactly how I can sum this up to in a very simple way having fun with this. I am having fun with this and also pointing out exactly what I see as my major problem as well. That's the point of me doing this in the first place for myself:
-identifying my triggers
-identifying my reactions
-And identifying my conclusions that I come to based on how I feel about it. And if you want to boil this down to how I might react ( in the past exept when I am cornered or at my most vulnerable time with my guard down all in good faith and that faith and trust has been vilated or betrayed.... what I would be likely to say in response in an uncontrolled way without the ability to pick a healthier response ( just to show here if I were to just blurt from the reaction to this kind of insult )
"Fuck you, and the horse you rode in on....you want to try that one again? You'll get the same response from me ( mother fucker ) And in a really heated or contested exhange, I'd be stadning there saying "bring it on.....watch what happens the next time you do that. C'mon, I'm right here in front of you ( two feet away ) ...watch what happens when you do that again, I wasn't born yesterday and you know exactly what you are doing.....try me, and see what happens.....you'll be sorry if you do. I guarenentee it."
And I would most likey, put my arms out and my hands out open...signalling that they are free to take the first punch or swing, completely showing my belly and allowing myself to be completely exposed and open. And then begging for the person to hit me again....since this time I am basically saying "Im going to hit you back.....HARD! If you do." And the point is, I will. I'm not bluffing in that case. When I get in game on mode, I mean it. There in no bluffing in my vocabulary. Homey don't play that chicken shit game of thowing rocks at someones back when they have their back turned and they are walking away from you. At least from my expereince, a coward is coward.....you match a coward with someone who no longer afraid and has no fear of being hurt.....suddenly the realize that they are going to get hurt if they try. I may lose the fight or get my but kicked in the end, but they going to lose a body part or an eye or pay some price no matter what? They're going to get hurt, if hurting is the currency or the game that is being played. If the game is to see who can take the most pain, I will win and you will lose since I take take a lot of pain, and still come back up expereince, a coward is coward.....you match a coward with someone who no longer afraid and has no fear of being hurt.....suddenly the realize that they are going to get hurt if they try. I may lose the fight or get my but kicked in the end, but they going to lose a body part or an eye or pay some price no matter what? They're going to get hurt, if hurting is the currency or the game that is being played. If the game is to see who can take the most pain, I will win and you will lose since I take take a lot of pain, and still come back up fighing. You'll have to kill me in that case if our pain threshold is equal.
This is exactly the mental process I go through in a sporting competition ahead of time to get my adreniline to spike. Once I can get my adreneline to spike...I no longer feel pain and that is to my advantage. It also allows me to summon courage on demand when I need it which in that context, it is. Inside, I may have self doubt and fear and all that goes with it, but in the moment I need to be Superman, and that's how I've found I can do it. It is a mental process of "jacking myself up".....instead of being "hyjacked"...I'm doing it with intention in the face of a realy adverary or threat. And it they won't back off or back down and I'm cornered for survivial sake and how I'm wired.....if passivity no longer works and no agressive tactics no longer prove effective...when I switched and go agressive and go into "fight"...."fight" is the last resort always....but that doesn't mean I "can't" or "won't" which is deceptive at times. Between fight, flight, freeze or run. I "freeze first, I "flight or run" second.....and when all esle fails....then I fight but when I do, there is no such thing as a fare fist fight. Fighting under those conditions means.....no holds barred and I will go straigh for the juggler or the most vulnerable spot I can land a punch or hit to. "Fairness" is no longer part of "fighting" when I get put into a corner like that.
All this is, is me recognizing myself in this and how I see things from that perspective. What I really wanted to say was what I good job I've done in not doing this more than anything esle....despite the "attack" , the "offense" and the "attempt" to give me a gift, with a particular "nasty flavor" to it....which comes through to me as cowardess and dishonestly...while feigning just the opposite. The fiegning come in the form of self rightous inignation, disdain and by insulting worth words in a very underhadned way, that is highly distasteful. At the end of the day as I come full circle here. Respect is earned...and this where "no respect" is given even if done silently with no reaction or response which is what I learned to do. I still to this day, don't know the right thing to do or how to answer the question without losing respect for myself? But I have learned to resolve it, and just ignore and the person doing it. I can make them invisisble, pretty easily if the facr of this and I have learned some very godd come backs to do put them right into the ground where they belong.
Here's the list of assoicated words and expressions that are all connected to the art of insutling people. It is not something I'm very good at doing intentionlly since I am much more out in the open about it when I do it which is that conduct violation. I think their should be some kind of defintion or label to put on this, but I haven't come up with one, I just know it when I hear it and I am very good at understanding exactly what is happening. I wan't born yesterday.....is always my first initial response or reaction to this. This is all about ownership....or trying to "disown" what is your's by pawning it off on someone else. Either you own it, or you don't....but don't give it to me, when it doesn't belong to me. Ownership, is everything. Own it, and keep it, and learn to live with what is yours...don't give it to me, because I don't want it!!! LOL And of course when I do it, and I do it at times too because everyone does....I expect to have it handed back to me, that is what I deserve for this kind of insult or violation. It always works both ways.
The bottom line is....speaking in the 3rd person is kind of Bullshit way of communicating and wrought with problems right from the get go. At the very least, it comes across as chicken shit, to the reciever or "hearer" of said, such words. He or she who smelt it, dealt it I have always said, and I still say it since for the most part ...since for the most part it's mostly true.
stigmatize-
incriminate-
entail-
im·ply
imˈplī/
verb
verb: imply; 3rd person present: implies; past tense: implied; past participle: implied; gerund or present participle: implying ( which means...one person is talking in the third person to you, and you are present in the NOW, on the recieiving end of it. That's what 3rd person present means as far as the impact and you are concerned.
strongly suggest the truth or existence of (something not expressly stated). ( it may not expressly stated, but the message comes through loud and clear!!! LOL I wasn't born yesterday )
"the salesmen who uses jargon to imply his superior knowledge"
synonyms: insinuate, suggest, hint (at), intimate, say indirectly, indicate, give someone to understand, convey the impression, signal ( I undersand!! clearly!!! )
"are you implying he is mad?"
(of a fact or occurrence) suggest (something) as a logical consequence.
en·tail
verb
verb: entail; 3rd person present: entails; past tense: entailed; past participle: entailed; gerund or present participle: entailing
inˈtāl,enˈtāl/
1.
involve (something) as a necessary or inevitable part or consequence.
"a situation that entails considerable risks"
synonyms: involve, necessitate, require, need, demand, call for; More
mean, imply;
cause, produce, result in, lead to, give rise to, occasion ( yeah, give rise to wanting to smack the person upside the head lol )
"first, we'll need to know exactly what the job entails"
Logic
have as a logically necessary consequence.
2.
Law
settle the inheritance of (property) over a number of generations so that ownership remains within a particular group, usually one family.
"her father's estate was entailed on a cousin"
archaic
cause to experience or possess in a way perceived as permanent or inescapable.
"I cannot get rid of the disgrace that you have entailed upon us"
a settlement of the inheritance of property over a number of generations so that it remains within a family or other group.
-a property that is bequeathed under such conditions.
: involve, necessitate, require, need, demand, call for; mean, imply;
cause, produce, result in, lead to, give rise to, occasion
"first, we'll need to know exactly what the job entails"
Logic
have as a logically necessary consequence.
2.
Law
settle the inheritance of (property) over a number of generations so that ownership remains within a particular group, usually one family.
"her father's estate was entailed on a cousin"
archaic
cause to experience or possess in a way perceived as permanent or inescapable.
"I cannot get rid of the disgrace that you have entailed upon us"
a settlement of the inheritance of property over a number of generations so that it remains within a family or other group.
a property that is bequeathed under such conditions.
be·queath
bəˈkwēT͟H,bəˈkwiTH/
verb
past tense: bequeathed; past participle: bequeathed
leave (a personal estate or one's body) to a person or other beneficiary by a will.
"an identical sum was bequeathed by Margaret"
synonyms: leave to, leave in one's will to, hand on/down to, will to, make over to, pass on to, entrust to, grant to, transfer to; donate to, give to;
endow on, bestow on, confer on;
demise to, devise to, convey to
"I bequeath the northern campgrounds to the Yellow Birch Fishing Club"
pass (something) on or leave (something) to someone else.
"he is ditching the unpopular policies bequeathed to him"
synonyms: leave to, leave in one's will to, hand on/down to, will to, make over to, pass on to, entrust to, grant to, transfer to; donate to, give to;
endow on, bestow on, confer on;
demise to, devise to, convey to
"I bequeath the northern campgrounds to the Yellow Birch Fishing Club"
en·trust
ənˈtrəst/
verb
verb: entrust; 3rd person present: entrusts; past tense: entrusted; past participle: entrusted; gerund or present participle: entrusting
assign the responsibility for doing something to (someone).
"I've been entrusted with the task of getting him safely back"
synonyms: charge, invest, endow; burden, encumber, saddle
"he was entrusted with the task"
assign to, confer on, bestow on, vest in, consign to;
delegate to, depute to, devolve to;
give to, grant to, vouchsafe to
"the powers entrusted to the treasury department"
put (something) into someone's care or protection.
"you persuade people to entrust their savings to you"
synonyms: hand over, give custody of, turn over, commit, consign, deliver; formal commend
"she entrusted them to the hospital"
ENDOW; ENDUE
en-dou', en-du':
likeness between the literal meanings has confused the metaphorical use of the words in spite of their difference in origin. Thus we find in Genesis 30:20, the King James Version "endued me with a good dowry" the Revised Version (British and American) "endowed" (zabhadh, "bestow upon," "endow"); Exodus 22:16, the King James Version "endow her to be his wife" the Revised Version (British and American) "pay a dowry for her" mahar, "purchase" "endow"; compare Deuteronomy 22:29; 2 Chronicles 2:12,13, the King James Version and the Revised Version (British and American) "endued" with understanding (from yadha`, "know"); and Luke 24:49, the King James Version "endued with power," the Revised Version (British and American) "clothed" (enduo, "clothe").
Heritage:
estate, patrimony. See inheritance.
an estate inherited from one's father or ancestors.
2.
any quality, characteristic, etc., that is inherited; heritage.
3.
the aggregate of one's property.
4.
the estate or endowment of a church, religious house, etc.
Patronize
1.
to give (a store, restaurant, hotel, etc.) one's regular patronage; trade with.
2.
to behave in an offensively condescending manner toward:
a professor who patronizes his students.
3.
to act as a patron toward (an artist, institution, etc.); support.
J, You have identified another learning opportunity for me...
Submitted by c ur self on
Just reading about the car window exchange y'all had, has me shaking my head, because we have been stuck right there so long. It's so hard to stay in a peaceful state once those competitive, one-up.man.ship comments start getting thrown around....It really don't matter what we want or don't want happening between us. (in our communication attempts as your therapist suggested) until the competitive spirit and one-up.man.ship comments stop getting thrown at each other...That spirit and those comments show that there isn't any capability to fulfill the therapist suggestion....What that is ODD in my opinion...
For me it takes ownership and recognition...Nothing can push my buttons any quicker than to hear disrespectful comments. Especially when I'm giving full effort to make her life easier. Really!!....But!...I must own my reaction to them! I know that spirit is there...She craves affirmation and wants to know I think highly of her, and as her husband, it is my responsibility to make sure she gets appreciated in the way it matters to her!....It's not all her for sure, I will catch myself wanting to match her stories with some of my own...I can do that with my buddies, but, I need to be sensitive to not do it with her....She takes it wrong, her self-esteem is just to fragile...
Little story that explains this....Last night I was watching a baseball game...And she was in the other room watching something on TV...They were talking fielding, and my mind went strait to my wife...She played softball most of her life...Into her fifties, until her knee forced her out...(which she recently got replaced)...My wife played first base, and she had an exceptional glove (fielding ability) hardly ever made and error....So last night it just dawned on me as I set here that I had never shared with her that I felt that away. So I just walked in there and climbed up on the bed with her and she paused her program when she saw me coming;) LOL (another story)...So I just shared those feelings with her...I thought she might cry, she put her hand over on mine and squeezed it, and looked at me with such love. ( I don't get that look to often)...And she said "I know it's stupid that that means so much to me". I think I just smiled and gave her a kiss and came back into my game....
I learned something by that little episode, that I already knew....But, no one is a mind reader...I know my wife's love language is affirmation, and I should look for more opportunities to love in that way...I need to do better in this department!
J, I'm sorry it went south for you and your W this morning...I know it's no comfort, but, this exact thing has started more conflict between us than probably anything else....I really need to work on awareness of this and just continue to limit my responses....Especially those that are self promoting LOL....Pats on the back need to go to her....I'm glad you posted this....It is something I needed to hear...
Thank you
C
That's Good to Hear C
Submitted by kellyj on
You're also very welcome. I really have found these little exercise with words to be extremely useful to me. It is just random associations but I'm actually letting the computer find the associations and synonyms since that;s what computers do best. They connect like or associated things in the search engine which just gives you more ideas and options t pick from. To expand on a word and take out it as far as it will go and just see what comes out of it? What I really got out this myself, were all the relationships to ..."transferring.....to......onto.....from one object to another? In this case "me" as the object in question which was very affirming to me as well. My wife has come to a conclusion now in what she is going to do, which is no surprise to me, but within that, I was surprised a little in what I expected? I think, I had a lot more to do with that than anything else which is what I'm found most valuable to me? I did influence my wife, in a positive way and moved her away from her pattern of the scolding punitive parent or that protector again. Mini Me....is that person when she splits, that I most fear of all and by doing what I've done at least in the positive for the future....I think I kind of cut Mini Me off at the knees which kindness and understanding. It serves no use what so ever, to invoke Mini Me into the situation since Mini Me can only see things from one point of view. If I reflect back and doing my best considering the circumstance.....Mini Me...is really a different person and a different personality. The "other one" as I use to call her.....is never going away in terms of my wife, and that's just a fact of reality. Who ever, or what ever Mini Me thinks I did or thinks I am when she splits.....has no basis or reference to reality including me of course. What ever triggers Mini Me..from suddenly jumping behind the curtain.....is not something I have any control of what so ever, and with that....there is nothing I can do to change that. I have come full circle in my acceptance of this, that I've resolved it simply by expecting it instead. When Jeckel is there, she is one person to me, when Hyde comes out...she is another. I realized that this is all inside my head. She is always the same person and she is always both. It just comes as an "either"...."or"....proposition, and vacillates between the two? I accept that she is both and she is not two different people. Once I resolved that for myself, I not longer her saw her in the "image" she was projecting. That's her doing that, not me. If I'm doing that with her as a side effect or consequence of "her"...then I am not being authentic myself, and I am not remaining "who I am"....when I have to be someone else, in the presence of this "other person" I read up on yet another web sight, that said this perfectly now and I see this for exactly what it is:
The narcissistic/(borderline) parent is neurologically unable to simultaneously experience both positive and negative perceptions of a person. Either the other person is seen as an idealized source of nurture and narcissistic supply, or the other person becomes a devalued object of complete contempt and scorn. No middle ground is possible. Ambiguity is neurologically impossible for the narcissistic/(borderline) personality.
When the divorce occurs, the targeted parent becomes an ex-husband or an ex-wife.
In the black-and-white polarized brain pathways of the narcissistic/(borderline) parent, the “bad husband” MUST also become the “bad father” and the “bad wife” MUST also become the “bad mother.” There is no other possibility and this schema in thought processing is incapable of any middle ground. This is an imperative imposed by the neurological networks of the narcissistic/(borderline) brain, i.e., by the splitting dynamic characteristic of both narcissistic and borderline personalities.
With a little hinting and help pointing me in this direction, my T has basically told me this was my wife's mothers without making this direct diagnosis which he won't do. And since I grew up with at least one parent ( my father ) who suffered from this, I was getting that very strong feeling from her mother which really hit all my buttons as once. Within my wife and within what I have experienced and as you are aware of, have spent many many hours researching and reading and trying to understand the differences myself. My father was the Narc....and he mother was the Borderline. I now have two very good example I can work from and use as a model for the future no matter where I go or who I'm with. I see this in my wife too, but of course, she is not her mother and is a different person. I have an appreciation for this now, that I did not have before, and I am very thankful or glad of all the work I've done in order to form a better opinion of this than before. In not making anything I do or think, contingent on anyone else....I have found a way to resolve this for myself more importantly and I said to my wife last night when she came to me with her decision. And that is she is moving out and finding her own place or someone other than with me. And when I was confronted with that finality that she has come to herself, but with her own admission that she was "BAD"......I now understand this completely and I knew exactly what to say? She hit me again of course out of the blue and just announced it to me last night no discussion as usual. But she said, that maybe we could be "friends".....which I also understand this is the only way she can resolve this for herself. She has to label it in terms she can identify me as.....which was really nice to hear....that "friends" is what she came up with? And of course, that is a very rigidly defined label, as is with everything I have come to understand? "Friends" is a really good place to be and that is exactly how she was speaking to me. In a very marked change than before? I am not longer her enemy, when she came to the "friends" definition? It could have been a much different label and that is what I was fearing? But in respect to how I was treating her and even when I got angry and called her out, I have no changed at all in how I see her and how I feel about it....but I think ( and I know ) that going against anything she has decided, will never ever work. As he friend, and when I heard that is who I am to her now.....it was not Mini Me I was talking to, because the fear and threat is gone. All that conflict in her head that she was putting....onto me.....is not longer an issue since she is moving out by the end of the month. And from that place, I told her....."for your sake as your friend, I see you suffering all the time. I wish and have tried to take that away from you, but I can't but it was always what my motivation was with you in mind at heart. I see you suffer and I see and feel your pain....and if simply being here with just (too many things ) that cause you to suffer here living with me, I think it's the best decision for you. I see your anxiety, I see your depression and see how you suffer all the time. I know, that I am only part of that and the environment itself and your inability to control that or do anything about, must make life miserable here for you? I of course, do contribute but to the point that the conflict is less with me directly as the person I am....and more indirectly related as the by-product or the things I manifest at times which is not ever directed "at you"....even though it does effect you. I have done what I have never been able to do ever in my life with you here....and what I learned I will take with me, and I have you to Thank for that."
And the fact, that this was my genuine response that was unplanned but in respect....came from my own resolution for myself ahead of time, allowed me to be her "friend" and not take any of that personally. I also saw her in a different light, which allowed me to see the quality that I most admire about her even if it is attached to or connected to the opposite "bad" side of the coin. There was always something that I have "trusted" within her despite everything else, and it is the quality of "innocence" that is most endearing to me at times. It is a very genuine and authentic quality that is something I trust, which tells me what her real true intentions are, and I feel they are honorable and without any ill will or feeling a need to "punish" me anymore. I think by bringing her to the place where she saw herself as "BAD".....I forced her to see what she didn't want to see which allowed her to at least, take responsibility for how she feels and made a decision. She didn't blame me for the reason she is leaving, she blamed the fact that she realizes there is something wrong with her that she has no ability to control....that is not me or anything I've done...but simply admitting that this is "who I am...and how I am" ...and I can't help it or change that to be different. That was a real response and a real accounting and acceptance of something she can't change but more over, she admitted to herself, that she simply doesn't want to try or try and do anything about it and that's a fact. She didn't try and blame me for that, and make it all about me this time. That is what a friend would do, and she was behaving and acting like a friend. And I had no need to change from that or make her see herself any more than I did, aside from making sure I told her all her good qualities and how she was NOT...a bad person. A BAD person, wouldn't;t have done that, and that is not who she is. She is simply in a state...of ignorance and denial...that alternates between ignorant bliss, and depression.....and being affected by everything to an extreme. I see her suffer from this, and I don't not want her to suffer anymore on my account. She does that all by herself, and she needs no more help from me. The fact is, the inconsistent nature of my ADHD....hits within her, something that triggers "distrust and fear" which is simply a way over reaction, to what it really is in reality. She cannot understand it any other way, and because she simply cannot seperate me from my ADHD and see me other than ( this threat ) to her survival, I cannot deny her the ability to survive, and do what she has to in order to do it? And in the same way, I can't allow her to hold me back of prevent me from moving forward and being all that I can be. She's just trying to keep her head above water.....I am trying to flourish and thrive? I am just that far ahead of her, and she simply cannot follow me, not matter how hard I try to make it so she can? And I cannot sacrifice and sabotage myself...in order to tread water next to her and keep her afloat for the rest of my life either? I have some real challenges ahead and I need to be at my best not my worst in order to overcome them. I will continue to see her and continue to see what I happens after that, but as my wife does...she really is not painting a very realistic picture of the future and cannot see why this is not going to work as she see's it which is basically what she does. I can take the "friends" label...and be extremely thankful and know that I can trust her and my anxiety and the weight I was feeling, has already lifted.
And my validation came last night, as a sense of peace came over me spontaneously. That feeling is the feeling you get, when you go through the wall yourself. And there is no other way to get that, but to go through it, there is no other way I know, to get to the other side? Once you've done it once.....you learn you can always do it again. That is what I learned so long ago in swimming....pain, is a transcendental and a cathartic thing, when you stop being afraid of it, and you can push yourself through to the other side of it when you are really called upon to do it. There is no way around the wall....you have to go through it.....or not. That is a choice, but you have to summon the courage to do it in the first place and allow yourself to become vulnerable which is what gives you this ability. As my T told me long ago and I am now understand this as he said it to me, "Swimming saved your life".....I'd just change that to "I did that myself." I own that one, and I'm taking it to the bank. Thank you C, for being there and helping me along the way. :)
J
PS Of course....I have everyone here who's helped me through this, and all the support and strength you've given me. Couldn't forget that now could I? Ha!! It's all good. :)
Wishing you well, J
Submitted by Chevron on
wishing your wife well, too.
She does that all by herself, and she needs no more help from me. The fact is, the inconsistent nature of my ADHD....hits within her, something that triggers "distrust and fear" which is simply a way over reaction, to what it really is in reality. She cannot understand it any other way, and because she simply cannot seperate me from my ADHD and see me other than ( this threat ) to her survival, I cannot deny her the ability to survive, and do what she has to in order to do it? And in the same way, I can't allow her to hold me back of prevent me from moving forward and being all that I can be.
... until she's able to find inside of her the harm that was done to her long ago, that she's taken as part of herself, because someone long ago coerced her into believing that she was that bad thing, until then, she will need to defend herself ...from herself and from her old persecutor...by insisting that the harm is coming at her from outside of herself.
...so anyone close to her might, in her present state, be a trigger for her to replay barricading herself.
None of us is perfect, J, we all have plenty of incompletions, things to get better on, things we did to other people that werent our best. But there's nothing wrong with you. That includes your ADHD
I couldnt guess how things will turn out later, but your wife isnt going to get happier and better able to engage with you, if the two of you want that later, until she gets away from what she thinks is victimizing her on the outside, until she can see what got put inside her a long time ago, and start to deal with that brokenness in there directly.
Wishing you well.
Amazing J
Submitted by c ur self on
That 's about the healthiest, and most thoughtful look at reality I ever heard of, in such a difficult situation J....
I said in a post a while back that I'm not mad at my wife. And, if I left it would be because of the reality that we aren't going to be able to get old together in any kind of healthy way...I said this would be the reason....I said if I leave I would be feeling it to was the best for both us, ( a way to have peace in any future days/years the Father might allow us, something we haven't been able to sustain over a few weeks at a time, over the past 9 years of our marriage)....I just read a post by a poster that said, she was dodging her spouse, and was going to just live like a roommate...I'm so sorry she is in that position...But that is unacceptable for me....If one of us is going to quit on the other...I want be in the same house...To me (a person who loves the interaction a healthy marriage produces) there are much worse things than a little loneliness...
Blessing J....
C
I'm Not the Enemy......An Amazing Admission
Submitted by kellyj on
Last night, we talked some more, but as usual the conversation was in reference to her and what she is going to be doing. I really do appreciate the nice wishes and the support ( from everyone here and in this thread ) and It has been, and still is difficult to put everything in it's proper place, but since I'm no longer the enemy, my wife and I are talking much more civilly, but as I see this into the same context as I have been ( nothing has changed in my perspective ) I see her as now, simply doing the same thing as before, yet I am no longer "in the picture"..and more importantly, no longer the "target of blame". I am now, "outside" of the circle and am no longer seen as the "source" for her needs. That has gone elsewhere which is still all inside her head. Today, she is off with her girlfriends and she was in a good mood and looking forward to it? I think it's great, and I encouraged her as always to go and have fun. There is still the part of me, that wishes only, that she could have done that with me? I gave her every opportunity to do so, but I did have an expectation and a requirement in order for that to happen? As it has always been, that Mini Me not come along with us. That is and was, an unreasonable expectation that I had, even though it was perfectly reasonable based on what I'd see as a "normal expectation". Mine that is. Her's????? It's her reality, not mine....I cannot tell her, what is true or not true and that is not my job. But as I was and am now looking into the future as she is already way ahead of me ( as usual ) it's as if, I'm feel the same way as she does, which is not really all that accurate? None the less, it is what it is and I'm just going with it. I am making sure, that how we leave and everything that happens now, will be left in a good place and resolved as far I go. I am, as I have always been, wanting and needing resolution ( as we go ) which is impossible with someone who simply is not interested or wanting resolution. If you can't get past "I want.....I need....." ( first ) then what good is resolution, when all you want is all you want and somehow...you;re not getting it? A haunting reminder she said long ago in passing that one of her ex's told her "there is no pleasing you". I fully understand this now, but beyond that, I also want to make sure I say anything that needs to be said, since I will never have this opportunity ( maybe ...quite possibly ) again. Not as it appears since she is actually hearing me at the moment? Before, nothing I said meant anything, and her ears were full of her own thoughts...and of course...that invisible third person in the room ( that was not me....but me ) who is not there at the moment?
And in a very sincere way, I wanted her to know, that I didn't think it was her fault at all. I did find a way to blame something or point my finger to...and what I came up with that is true....was a cultural difference between the two of us? This was not registering exactly even though I know what it is, and in part.....I do know the part that I related to her last night. As I said this I was picturing a petri dish with a "culture" growing in it yet I did not share that with her, but I was picturing this kind of culture...as a familiar one as in a "family" or "group" or even her entire extended family which of course....was the origination point for everything I'm thinking about. And what is true, that I have said many times to her is simply, I am ill equipt or ill prepared to know something and know what to do, based on a completely different culture from the one I came from? I got a taste of it, in the few experiences I had...and one was with her own mothers passing and going to the memorial service for her held at one of her mothers many brothers home. What I noticed, was outside of what one might expect as a family gathering...but it didn't get past me...and something was not quite right? What I saw, were a bunch of people who were all related to one another and no one was really intermingling or sharing with each other...side from a couple of the members but it was like they were all strangers? I ended up talking to everyone for at least a moment, but the people who were not really engaging the most, were my wife and her brother which was kind of wierd? In fact, I kind of got, that the entire clan was in essence, "estranged" but not directly to my wife and her brother....more directed at the deceased in this case? It was highly unemotional, and very little was said or spoken about the ( person of honor ) in this case which was her mother...whose wake and memorial it was....and of course....her children were part of it. My wife and brother.....were in essence, seen as "that part" of the family while the rest were more....the :"other part" of the family meaning.....her mother held kind of a special place in the family which was part of this admission from my wife last night? There was definitely something, not being said, and if no one else picked up on this....I certainly did? It was her one and only, older sibling who held the event, and out of all of the siblings, he seemed and appeared to be the friendliest and the one who had really anything plosive to say about my wife's mother at that event.
So last night as I was making sure my wife knew how I really felt, I simply said that there is something I can see you need and this was making you suffer, but try as I might to give it to you, that I never seemed to hit the mark? And I hope she could see that I really did try but I did not possess what it was that she needed and I am still not sure exactly what that was? I attributed that, to not having any experience, insight or even the ability to put myself into her shoes enough, to understand what she needed just to be more empathetic in the first place? And the mention of her family again, brought something my T had said to mind. In fact, she told me that it was not a waste of time going to see him, since one thing he said really did hit the mark, and left an impression on her? As she was relating some really bad stuff, directed at her father and how she saw him, my T said..."but just imagine, what happened to him and what he went through at the hands of his mother, to cause someone to become like that?"
This, is a concept that I am familiar with intimately since it is part of the process I have gone all the way through in order to change my own relationship with my past and all that went with it. That is, to forgive and let go of any past hurts and things that came at me in a similar but very different way? As I said to her, I literally cannot imagine what you went through..and that is why I have no ideas or no way to know exactly what you need? My only failure really, is simple not knowing and I am still unclear of exactly what that is? That's a problem, when the person sitting next to you, can't tell you that either? And what came out of that was what was really interesting? As I was bringing up "cultural differences" I mentioned her family's point of origin which she has told me before ...they were from Oklahoma...and better, were "Okies" as they were called. I mentioned "rednecks" but that as she said it. was too judgmental? I don't really care what name you put on it, because the "culture" and the people in it, remian the same no matter what you call them and that is what is true and that reminded me of meeting my first wifes family down in Texas, who I liked very much. It was a very strange broken family but they all came together and seemed like a family unit...but it was the evening when they held a party togehter in the "Grange Hall" in the small Texas town where they lived, that really hit me in the face at this event. It was a pretty big bunch when all the extended family, the husband and wives and all the "extentions" being present, and I was chatting with the men, and all of a sudden...this came out ( paraphrasing the conversation they were having about some oil rigs and contractors they worked with since they were all oil field workers of some kind? You know, Texas and oil?? LOL ) " Yea...you know that boy, what was that Nigger's name????? Gosh, ( Fred ) wha's that Niggers name again, the one who worked on that rig with y'all." "Uh, which Nigger you talk'in bout, Old Harry or that other boy? " And as I looked around the room as if in shock and wanted to see all the other people who were shocked liked me.....in a room of 40 people, not one of them batted an eye? The only eye's that were batting and uncomfortable were mine....making the point? And I did not get for a second, that A) there was any annomocity or hatred involved what so ever. And B) the conversation continued and further, only good things were being said about said "Niggers" to the point, that the sole purpose of this one particular "Nigger" even being mentioned was because he was such a good worker and a trusted person and he wanted to call him to see if he would come do some work for him. That is....the said "Nigger". In the context, the tone, the attitude and all that went into it as well as the reactions and response of everyone, that NO ONE had a problem with this? It's just what you call 'em? Nigger boy....was just a label to differentiate one person from another with no hatred or prejudiced involved? Nothing but good things were said..about Old Harry the Nigger boy....which was just his name,....no big deal? That was the impression I got? There was something. so embedded and culturally ingrained, that no one saw a problem, since everyone was doing it? Except for me....I was the only one in the room who had a problem with that but I kept that to myself since....I would have been way out of line, to call anyone out on that? I was the stranger, the quest and the company at that affair, and I would have been totally out of line, to even show any signs of disapproval. These were the old guys talking to each other,....not the younger generation from which my ex wife had come from? But I got his in the face in a very real way, in that, something wasn't right.....but I was not wrong in how I felt about it? I belonged there and was a quest, but I didn't belong "there" in that culter since it was completely foreign to me, when I experienced that in real time live and in person? Whether or not, it was prejudice., ignorance or anything else you could attribute it to, I was the odd one, the wierd one and the one who had a reaction to it....no one else did.....so that was my personal problem....not theres in that case? I really don't think it was predudice...not in how they were talking about this man named Harry...after hearing all the wonderful accolades they had to say about him as an oil field worker and someone they trusted and had worked with in the past? It was Texas after all, "Texicans"...definitely got their own thing going and by golly..,..they are damn proud of it. And if they want to call a black man a Nigger...then boy howdy, no one's telling a Texican anything different, you can be sure of that one!!! And it's not a pick up truck neither boy,...it's a Pick'em Up Truck.....cause, that's what we all use round these parts...to "pick us up, some fillies:.,,..git it? LOL
Anyway, I was using that experience and I had related that to my wife in the past, but as I said that I had to compare how we came from such different backgrounds and yet, not all that different aside from as I see it..."different culture" which was the point I was really trying to make?
And that's when it happened and it came right out my wife mouth with me, never ever mentioning this once, I am absolutely sure I never did!!! My wife said "you know that movie Throw Mama from the Train? My moms mom was like that, she even talked and sounded like it? ( jaw drop moment for me, since I have used that reference about my wifes mother, but as she was saying this, she was taking about her Grand Mother, who apparently was even worse? Like OMG!!! I guess I nailed that one, right on the head which was really just me joking around around out of frustration, but I must have got enough of that from her mother...to give me that impression? And as my wife is sitting there now, confirming that this WAS her Grand Mother.....all the pieces fell neatly into place....which pretty much tells me the complete an entire picture? And in respect to her mother, and the family.....I cannot even imagine what that must have been like. Here it is, as just as I remembered it in the movie which I had to look it up today, to just sit back and what this one more time. The Actress Anne Ramsey, got nominated for best supporting actor category in Academy Award and won the same award in the Golden Globes for her performance. I guess it was why it was so memorable?
https://youtu.be/444U3LGi3Bw
https://youtu.be/RQk7-GqzZCc
J