I'm now talking to those of us who have ADHD ........and it's addressing the very thing that I think that many us fail to see or remember in important moments when dealing with our spouses, partner's or SO's... especially!
Because our minds are in constant motion with difficulty turning it off or changing directions.....we need to mindful that we do not assume that everyone else is like this....which is painfully obvious at this point. Just a few words to state what I feel is not getting said from the inside looking out........
Just because we're use to non stop thoughts racing through our minds 24/7.......doesn't mean everyone else is used to it and most likely not. Assume the last sentence.
Just because we're use to our roller coaster of extremes in thinking and emotions ( the highs and lows).......doesn't mean everyone else is like this too. More like comparing someone who's use to riding their bike on the interstate in Nebraska and someone who's use to competing in the Tour de France in the alps.
And, just because we only know what it's like to have ADHD in every aspect of it and are use to being this way since that's all we know. This pretty much assures that for everyone else.....this will be quite different and demanding on them to suddenly get pulled into trying to be like us, think like us or to try and understand or keep up with us.....or nor would anyone want to.
But.....that's all we know...... and you do get use to anything if that's the way you've been from that first day you took your first breath. They say that some people suffer from it? All I can say is.....I don't suffer from having it because I'm use to it and don't know the difference. I'm fine with that much. I understand the difference, but I don't know what that's like. I've suffered at times from the consequences of having it.....but not from the actual experience having of it. I think that's a fair statement coming from someone who does see the difference even if I don't know exactly what it feels like to not have ADHD.
I remember when I first started taking Adderall....and it occurred to me after a time that "this must be what it's like to be/feel like everyone else?.....kind of like getting a prescription for eyeglasses for the very first times and simply being able to see things in focus......not like that.....just like that. I never knew what that was like until that day.
I encourage any person with ADHD to consider this as a way to stop thinking that there is something wrong with other people when they complain that it's such a shock on them in many ways to be with us.
Being use to it is not saying that we like it ....many times we don't like it either. I've heard and read comments indicating that this thinking is possibly true. ( that we like having ADHD ) This might get interpreted by others in our struggles to stay positive and try and not look at the down side and focus on the good parts. There are some good parts too....actually, there are some really good part and it does feel good especially when other people find those good parts out about us and like them too...... but certainly not all of it.
And those same parts we don't like.....other people don't like too. We have to live these parts....other people do not. We need to keep this in mind on a daily basis.
The one undeniable fact that we need to keep in mind for the sake of others is......we are use to it.....everyone else is not.
I've found this to be a very helpful reminder to myself at times when I start to feel anything that goes contrary to this one simple fact.
That's what is not being said...so now I said it. lol
J
This is very well said. But
Submitted by MFrances on
This is very well said. But the problem, for me at least, is that my spouse (with ADD) cannot see how others feel. He is very self centered, because of the ADD, most likely (or could just be a selfish person). It's great that you can remind yourself every day that others are not like you and not used to it. My spouse is not to that point. And sometimes I do feel he uses it (having ADD) as an excuse-like he's saying I'm forgetful, I have ADHD and can't help being forgetful. Well he can, because he can remember some things (things that are focused on only himself) and others with ADHD have been able to find strategies to help them remember things. So why can't he? He doesn't want to.
I agree panda
Submitted by Dipity on
Panda123 and J - Yes!
Submitted by AlmaVera on
Yes -- the self-focus aspect. I am not sure how this actually factors in to ADHD, and I'd like to know! Is there a part of the brain structure, or neurochemical process or ??? that leads some people with ADHD to be so self-focused, and I'd also add, to lack true emotional empathy? (I realize that 'emotional empathy' is a bit redundant, since the root of the word 'empathy' is 'pathos,' which relates to emotion -- but I have also seen instances of what I'd call 'intellectual empathy' in people with ADHD. They can logically understand how someone might feel a certain way as a result of things they do or say, but they can't/don't/won't (not sure which) actually put themselves in the other person's place to feel what it feels like for the other person. And without that, it is much harder for them to change, I think - less motivation.) I have seen so many people ask if medication will help someone gain empathy. No, I don't think so, but there may be some help through therapy. Someone has to be motivated, though. I have seen EXACTLY what you're talking about, panda, where a person can figure out strategies for things that are important to them, but that hasn't included doing the same for relationships, and asking them about it never brought a good response. :(
The self-centeredness and lack of empathy that some have written about here on the board can reach absolutely stunning levels, but can also be much less of a factor for other people. I don't think it has only to do with racing brains or inattentiveness. Having dealt personally with this in people with ADHD and people on the autism spectrum, it's sometimes seems the more severe symptoms of self-centeredness/lack of emotional empathy in ADHD look a lot like my friends on the 'mild' end of the autism spectrum, in that they don't seem to understand why they should focus on someone else. They don't get anything out of it. They can understand why other people should focus on them, but not vice versa. But even there, one friend who was diagnosed as an adult as being on the spectrum (when 2 of her kids were, too), was able to see that she could learn some of the same things she was trying to teach her kids about interaction with people. And she has made herself do it. It's amazing to see how she's opened up in the last few years, too. It was not easy for her by any means, but she said she has never regretted it. It doesn't mean she's not on the spectrum anymore, but she's got a much richer life with more and deeper connections to people. She really wanted to feel and care more about the people around her.
I have not been officially diagnosed, but I'm basically being treated for it, and I know I have the symptoms, and have had them as long as I can remember. I've been involved with 2 men who have it (one diagnosed, one not), and all 3 of us had differences and similarities in our symptoms, including in areas of empathy and self-centeredness. So, I sort of feel like I'm looking at this from both sides of the fence. I never really thought of myself as thinking differently from other people. I thought of myself as being smart, but just...lacking in all of the areas that were actually just symptoms. Mainly because that's always how I've been treated.
I have been told more than once that I should become a therapist, because I 'get' people. I won't though, because I know myself well enough that I can see I'd become too wrapped up in clients. I wouldn't be able to turn it off. Boundaries are still something I'm working on, and that has more to do with my childhood than my ADHD. Also, I really identified with some of the things in Sari Solden's book about women with ADHD. There is a certain amount of shame that one incurs from feeling for people, but symptoms getting in the way of acting on those feelings. It's not that the feelings aren't there. I don't know how much of this is a true gender difference due to brain structure, hormones, etc., and how much is acculturation -- probably a combination. Certainly there are men here who have written about female partners with ADHD who are not compassionate to them, or who are self-centered, too.
I wonder how much changes when one begins to identify as having ADHD. I'm not there yet. I don't feel like I can tell people about it and not feel like it's an excuse for why I'm chronically disorganized and messy. I need to figure it out, because I need to model good skills and a good self-image about it for my son.
I think you just summed up the probelm
Submitted by kellyj on
.But the problem, for me at least, is that my spouse (with ADD) cannot see how others feel. That's true for everyone aside from what you see. The problem comes from the second thing you said about him...not getting to that point.
So what is that point?
The point that you just have to understand exactly what I said. You will never know what that is like so you have to take others for face value when they tell you that this may be true for you but not for them and leave it right there......it's about trusting or believing something that you cannot know for yourself from your own feelings alone. Faith in what you can't know? and just believing it anyway.
This was my intention in writing this...not for non ADHD people. You pretty much already know this. It's for those of us like your husband to read and make them think about this enough to simply let go and believe what they can't know themselves.
It's pretty easy for me to say at this point that if someone is using their ADD as an excuse is still feeling victimized by it instead of simply accepting these things and then moving on to doing something about it. Being a victim to it just makes you stuck and that's why almost every spouse who comes is. Because their partner is still stuck. nothing happens when your stuck. the first and foremost goal for anyone like me who has ADHD is to get un stuck in their thinking otherwise your not going to get very far in changing or making improvements.
That's the problem with 99% of the people here....their with someone who's stuck....not from the ADHD itself but in their thinking. ADHD fortunately does not cause thinking...it's only responsible for the actual things that it's responsible for. The rest of it (and why people are here) comes from a person's ability to take ownership and responsibility for their own actions and behavior and in their thinking.
You said it perfectly. I have ADD and can't help being forgetful. There is some truth to this is especially if you only believe what you know from the past. But you can do things to make it better to the point that other people aren't going to be angry with you as much and it won't be as big a problem. Even to the point of not being a problem perhaps.
I've just been down this road in a different way with my wife and now I have changed the wording with her in times like this. Now I would say something like....
"If you expect me to be perfect in remembering everything like you...you are probably going to be disappointed if that is your expectation of me. I know I'm bad with this at times and I know that some of it has to do with my ADHD. I don't expect to be perfect myself and so that would only set myself up to fail so that is not my goal. My goal is to try my best at improving and doing the best I can and making that my focus...not the end result. I won't make you any promises about the end result because neither one us knows what's that going to be yet. I'm improving with that all the time. but even with that....I guarantee you that I will forget things on occasion because of my ADHD and that's a fact. If perfection and 100% compliance is your only criteria for success or failure as far as what you want it to be. You need to change your expectations a bit from that to being happy with 90% or even 85%. I say this because I will fail and I know it and so should you. Stop making things all or nothing and take my successes along with you and be happy that I'm no longer at 50%. I agree that 50% are pretty bad odds if you have to trust someone else to remember things that are important to you. If you can't be happy with 85 or 90% then there is nothing I can do for you. sorry."
And then I just move on and don't get upset because these are the facts as I see them. It's not an excuse to say that I think the best I can do is 90% or even less if that is true...but what I do know is that I'm not going to settle or stop trying...or try and predict the future by saying 100% because that's just setting myself up to fail. i don't believe 100% to be just like everyone else so I'm not going to make that promise just because that's the expectation from my wife. she has issues related to needing answers I just don't have for here and then to keep pushing for those answers which at times has forced me to give here one out of her inccesant needling and need to have one. This is a huge mistake I've learned because her own needs and expectations get thrown into her need for the answer and it's always more than I can give her at any one point it time. It's a set up failure and for validating her fears. I've stopped doing that and make no promises. Instead, I speak to her just as I did here with you. These are all true statements that I believe are true and that I can live up to. It's her need and fear and unreasonableness in her own expectations that I cannot live up to and I won't even try. That's not my goal even if it's hers. She has a bad habit of putting words into my mouth in the sense of saying that I said what she wanted instead of what I actually said and I've really become aware of this. I have to watch for it because it's a trap she sets for me even if it isn't intentional. In those moments I have to stop her and say "I didn't say that' what I said was what I said originally which is that I'm not going to promise you the thing you are trying to get me to promise. because I can't...but yet you keep wanting me too an I won't do it so please stop trying. Just look at the improvements as they come and join me in celebrating those and be happy with that today. Tomorrow will be another one and the day after that. Quit making the goal the most important thing and needing to know exactly what that is and when that is going to happen because...I'm never going to give you what your asking me for because I already know from my experience with you....that it's a set up for failure and I don't want to fail.
But she will keep trying to get me to promise and I won't. I think this is where the excuses start coming in...when you make promises to other people that you cannot keep.
At this point....I've stopped doing that. What ever it ends up being like is going to be 100% better than it was and I can't worry about the end results or try and make that my focus... or worrying about the future because that's not what is going to make you improve.
That is of course... the only thing my wife is seeing or is worrying about...but she's not the one doing the work so to speak. Worrying about doing the best you can keeps your eye on the ball and on the target and keeps you from failing and the results will follow which are always improvements.
She just needs to learn to live with a certain amount of uncertainty and that really is her issue ( a problem area before long before she met me)...and I just need to keep doing what I am doing and be considerate of her when she starts spiraling with her own issues.
But I realize that this is not the case with what you are saying. I'm just giving you an example of someone who isn't doing what you H is doing and is not stuck in my thinking and some of the conclusions I have had to make due to my own situation with my wife. I never blame her for anything or try and make excuses or her responsible for my ADHD. The rest is just the journey and we are moving forward and not stuck.
But again....I think this seems to be the place where most people who come here looking for answers and support are finding themselves in which is not the same one that my wife are in right now. I do understand this which goes back to the things I said ...hoping some with ADHD might read this and go.....oops. lol
J
J
I have come to realize that...
Submitted by ADHMe on
I am horrible at expressing myself in the way that I intend to, and I feel like this causes many misunderstandings which end up hurting personal and professional relationships. Here is an example:
I am a really good employee, especially if I find some enjoyment in the work I do (this is mostly due to fear-based management, my favorite coping mechanism). I am punctual (because I give myself 30 minutes of buffer time when getting ready and follow a strict routine), always meet or exceed dress code standards, and pull my weight as part of a team. Inevitably, like all humans, I will make a mistake (like being late because I misplaced my wallet, keys, or cell phone) and I am very hard on myself internally. I get very angry with my oversight, and I dwell on it and hyper-focus on ways to not make the same mistake in the future (we're talking 10-20 minutes late, here). The hyper-focus is a response to the sense of embarrassment and anxiety that starts building. I begin obsessing about the confrontation to come. Will my boss be angry? (probably not, that wouldn't be an appropriate response on his part) Disappointed? (The worst) Or will I get credit for my normally stellar track record and he will say no problem? (pretty please) Of course he will want to know that I'm contrite, and he will want a basic explanation of the reason. That part is easy. Say you're sorry and report facts. The next part I guess is where I screw things up. I feel like I need to convince him that I am really reliable, that this incident is an outlier, that I am truly apologetic and that I have taken steps toward understanding what caused it and what I can do to prevent this same mistake in the future. I'll say something like:
"I know why this happened, I usually put them on the table first thing, but I came in last night and the cat had thrown up, so I went directly to grab the paper towels and carpet cleaner before setting down my keys in their designated spot. I ended up finding them on the kitchen counter under the dish towel. I checked there three times before I thought to pick up the towel. Im so stupid! (said in jocular self-deprecation). I'm getting the new Tile app and key ring fob so this doesn't happen again." (if you couldn't tell this just happened and I am planning on getting it soon:)
This may not be the best scenario to paint my point, but this is the part of the exchange that typically ends up getting interpreted as an excuse. Of course I want to be excused , but not because it was out of my control, that's not what I am saying. It's because I am responding in an appropriate manner and it hasn't been anything resembling a trend, and I am using the mistake as an opportunity to make myself even more reliable.
The reality is it is understandable for my boss to be disappointed, in spite of my track record and my response. But that disappointment is absolutely crippling to my morale. It feels so unfair, but I can't justify being angry because on some level, I understand that it is only mildly unfair and that it is an acceptable response to me being late. I can't help but feel like I can see my tarnished image reflecting back at me in his disappointed eyes. I feel defeated, deflated, misunderstood, undervalued. Of course, lunch time rolls around, he makes a joke about it, I take offense but don't show it. By the end of the day he is treating me normally and I know everything is cool. Still, the absolute frustration and sense of unfairness I feel in anticipation of and in the face of disappointment is so destructive to my self esteem and self worth, I fear it like a child fears the dark.
ADHDme -- I could really feel
Submitted by AlmaVera on
ADHDme -- I could really feel your frustration in your post. I haven't had your exact situation, but I hope you don't mind if I share a method I learned that helped me a lot. I have had problems with ruminating and overthinking for years. One of my past problems has been a habit of what I call 'pre-defending.' It came from my marriage, when my ex-husband used to routinely invalidate what I was saying, telling me I didn't really mean what I was saying, or feel what I was feeling. I started explaining my reasons for anything before I ever said the actual thing I wanted to say. Much like an elaborate apology or explanation beforehand --thinking it would keep him from responding the way he always did. It never worked, but I ended up carrying that into other relationships. I have had to learn that not everyone is going to dispute everything I say. Imagine that! :)
One of the things that helped me was when I was in a DBT therapy group. It was developed for people with borderline personality disorder, but nobody in my group had that. I was mainly in it to help with recovering from my relationship. To help with 'distress tolerance' as they call it, and to become more strong and confident in stressful situations. I highly, highly recommend it. One of the focuses is on staying in the present moment, and trying to develop your 'wise mind.'
For example, in the situation you described above, it might suggest that you first of all do some mindful breathing to clear the stress in your body from rushing around and being late --- probably while you are in the car. Taking the extra oxygen into your body not only calms you down, it helps you to think better. When you are calmer, you can try to put together something to tell your supervisor that gives him the facts, and that's it. The DBT training has some handy little acronyms for helping create effective communication in just these types of situations. Likely, from what you've said, you will have an interior voice telling you that you need to explain more, otherwise he won't believe you. Here's where you can use some rational thinking and also retrain your brain -- ask yourself questions, such as "In the past, has my supervisor really acted like he doesn't believe me?" And then look back and see if there are any concrete situations you can think of -- not times where it seems like it, or when you think he has. Just the facts, ma'am. :) If you can't find any, this will help you start to talk back to that interior voice when it comes up. If you can think of some times, you still don't have to make a big point of explaining to him. Just the facts... and then work on proving to him that you are trustworthy.
I understand that you don't like that feeling of having someone disappointed in you. But part of the reality of having ADHD is that we will end up disappointing someone sooner or later. Nope -- scratch that -- take that last sentence and replace the words "having ADHD" with "being human." Your supervisor disappoints people, too. So do your coworkers. And I daresay, you would, too, even if you didn't have ADHD. Is your reaction this strong when you feel you've disappointed anyone, or just your supervisor? I have feared rejection and humiliation in the past to a level that felt like it paralyzed me. At some point, I had to realize that I'd dealt with much worse things in my life -- they are just feelings. They can't do anything to me unless I give them the power to do so. Nobody likes rejection or humiliation -- I'm not some delicate flower! In fact, the more fearful I appear to others, the more I attract their attention. By being more confident, even when I do mess up, it doesn't cripple me like it used to. People are less likely to even notice! I wonder if the same would be true for you. If maybe your supervisor senses how upset you are about it, and it affects his reaction to you? Do you think that's a possibility?
Is it possible that when he jokes that he is trying to show you that he doesn't have bad feelings about it, but he just doesn't do it very skillfully? Perhaps it feels like an offense or unfair to you because you don't think you should be 'punished' for something when you really tried your best? That's understandable. Here's another time to try to ask yourself questions: How is he showing you -- in concrete ways -- that he is not understanding you or not valuing you? Does he know about your ADHD? If so, then he likely knows the how and why of your being late. But as a supervisor who has other employees besides you, he still can't just give you free reign. He still wants you to get there on time, of course.
I am not trying to minimize what you're feeling in any way. Just hoping that maybe there's something in my experience that might help you.
AV
This may make everyone say
Submitted by AlmaVera on
AV and ADHDme My Theroy at Least
Submitted by kellyj on
AV...I'm still laughing at the hermit concept. Yes!! I have thought this too. I know I've read in other people with ADHD say things like "I can't work when other people (or my boss ) is watching me" or something to that effect. YES!! For sure. What I noticed about this with me....years ago when I worked right in front of a mall window with an audience, I really didn't seem to mind. It's only when the person watching me is accessing me which is another way of saying "judging me" when I start to get anxious.
Another thing......I noticed for years that people from time to time would try or offer to give me unsolicited "help" or "advise" in something I was doing...."you, know...if you did it like this it would be a lot easier" or something like this. This may sound obvious too for anyone who's been around somebody with ADHD...but I'm saying...this also comes at times with very little or brief contact with someone who just observing you. And this would come at times when I was doing something that I was very experienced and proficient at like with my work. My boss for instance after working with me for years knew my work, had confidence in the results and yet...if he was standing there after all of this...could not help himself to watch me and not say something? My initial response whether I said anything or not was something like "don't you have anything better to do?" or simply "get the F out of here and leave me alone". If I actually have said something in response to someone is saying this without anger but more in jest or fun with the person but my internal feelings non the less were the same.
Without question...the bulk of my experiences growing up in school, at home, at work.....has made me very socially aware or self conscious if attention is drawn to me. I tend to go out of my way to not draw attention to myself if I trying to do something and prefer to work alone without question. This isn't from being distracted...it comes from the feeling that I am being watched and judged. I know this all too well and it still to this day after everything else....can get me started feeling insecure and self conscious at certain times. I've pretty much just had to learn to ignore those feelings and start thinking about something else or they can easily start taking over. Yes....I have this happen too.
That's when I start thinking along those hermit lines AV....thinking life might be easier? But...I know that doesn't work. Eventually I get to feeling the need for human contact and being around or with other people and that overrides my insecurity. But that's not to say it's not there...
So my thinking on this subject is that no....being a hermit wouldn't work. You may not feel the anxiety or insecurity (that might be missing yes)....but at the cost of fulfilling the need to be with and around others for all reasons : emotional, mental, physical. I think we're programmed to be this way and going against that has other (worse?) consequences. I find that I do like to hide out at times but I still need to be with other people too. I get by pretty well with more hiding and less interacting but I have to have some of both to be happy.
I also think that some of this is in our heads....meaning, we pick up on this but then blow it out of proportion. The tiny bit of truth behind obsessive behavior is the very thing that keeps it going.....because it's true but to a far less degree than it really becomes in your own head ( fear ) I know that's where the negative ruminating comes from at times because the times it's not there.....I'm not feeling afraid. That's also something that has nearly disappeared for me which I think is part of the intensity and hyperfocing. I can't stop that but I have replaced the negative ruminating with creative thinking instead....positive, productive thinking etc....
I will admit however......that dogs are mans best friend. I could possibly see myself with my dogs as a poor substitute for humans. I have two now and have always had them without interruption with rare exception when I was in school or just out. I'm convinced that dogs have ADHD! ha ha I love to watch them interact together and with me and if I had to pick an animal if you believed in reincarnation...I definitely, without question was a dog in my previous life! Dogs have got it all......laser focus, easily distracted,resilient, high frequency vibration and energy and loyal to a fault. They definitely have ADHD !! lol
J-
Submitted by AlmaVera on
J-
Your comment about dogs having ADHD reminded me of this -- you know those goofy quizzes on FB to see what character in a movie matches you or whatever? I took a couple different quizzes (on different topics, even) where I matched up with the dog Dug from the movie Up. You know, the one who says "SQUIRREL!" If that's not ADHD, I don't know what is, lol.
AV
ADHD'er ask, where is MY hashtag!
Submitted by Prof. Doofenschmirtz on
Every other disability and condition known to man seems to have a hashtag and twitter group a facebook paged manned by a bunch manned by a bunch “do-gooders” feeling guilty about their “fill in the blank” privilege. As a “victim” of ADHD I would like to ask where do I find a little rubber bracelet and my hashtag that will shame “normal” people into being more understanding about MY condition!
Unfortunately It Doesn't Work That Way
Submitted by kellyj on
Sometimes, I do feel like the world is a Tuxedo...and I'm a pair of brown shoes! lol
But seriously......it doesn't work that way. If you're waiting for that to happen you'll be waiting for the rest of your life and it still won't . That was kind of my point in making this post. If you have to use the term "victim" of ADHD......yes, there is some truth to this. But it really is our problem not everyone else's. As soon as you resign yourself to this fact ...it will change how you feel about things. I'm taking the position now that I don't care......different is good and I don't care if someone doesn't like it yet....I'm still going to sit in the same room with everyone else and do my best not to step on anyone's toes at the same time. lol
yet...there are still times that I feel like someone taped a sign on my back that say's "KICK ME" ...and I'm still not aware of it! Wadda ya gonna do?
J
Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs
Submitted by kellyj on
Just a quick addition to some of the things that are being discussed about needs. I found this concept to be really helpful to identify where I am at any given period of time. I've really noticed how I can jump levels up or down on this scale....and then watch how my thinking , feelings and priorities change with it. Pretty much right in line with whatever is going on in my head or problems I'm experiencing at any given time.
This also helps me to dispel any feelings that I'm going crazy at times when I feel like I've changed from being one way to another. What I discovered is that I've actually just jumped levels....usually down when I notice it.
Anyway...if you haven't considered this or have seen this before....I think it has it's place and can be useful. More insight the better. lol
FYI: tried to paste the scale here and didn't work.....just google: maslow's hierarchy of needs...there tons of info on the web.
J
"Wadda ya gonna do?"
Submitted by AlmaVera on
"Wadda ya gonna do?"
I find honest acknowledgment often helps. Along with liberal doses of self-deprecating humor. :)
Actually, Prof. Doofenschmirtz, there is at least one FB page that I know of where a woman with ADHD posts. She's often pretty funny. It's "ADHD - Tales of an Absent-Minded Superhero." I'm kinda glad we don't have to wear rubber bracelets -- I find they chafe. Ha!
And rather than 'victim,' I prefer 'unwilling accomplice.' ;)
AV