I ask myself, "What do you want?" I can never put my finger on this question to myself - of what do I want for myself. I realize that I have not "wanted" for decades. OR better said, I WANTED my family to feel taken care of and to have a nice home and a loving family. THAT is what I wanted. I worked like crazy and sacrificed gladly. I was empathic and saw my role in life as someone who supported my husband and 2 sons to achieve in what THEY wanted for themselves. I supported my husband even more than my sons toward what HE wanted and with what HE could handle. It is my belief that if everyone gives, the family as a whole unit thrives.
When I think back to what I wanted as a younger person, There was a time when I wanted my husband. I was a young romantic. I GOT him. I liked the idea of living near a lake, near my mom and sisters. I GOT that. I wanted to travel. I DID that somewhat.
What had me so full of discontent and annoyed? There are fears and disappointments in life. I have been focusing on those things and they have been driving me crazy!
An attitude I am trying to change inside myself has to do with the difference between SHAME and GUILT. I don't think I really understood the difference. But, this is what I am getting to know about myself. I have been SHAMING MYSELF! Whenever I would make a mistake or when I didin't know what to do, I would ponder how I got into such a mess and what was wrong with ME that I was miserable and was not able to figure out how to fix things. So I felt SHAME and blamed myself over and over trying to make things different.
What I CAN do is to say, "Jenna, you are smart and good. You made a wrong choice. It didn't work out well. What did you learn?" Instead I was saying, "Stupid, stupd, stupid. Why can't you figure this out? What is the matter with you? Are you immature? Are you emotionally sick? Are you ugly or unpersonable or unloveable?"
ACCEPTING that I made bad choices decades ago. That I made wrong decisions years ago. AND I WILL KEEP MAKING MISTAKES....because that is what human beings do. We make decisions and half the time, the decision is not the best one. BUT that is where we get to forgive ourselves for being a human being. Decisions must be made daily by us all. I have been stuck and unmoving in my bad situation because I have become afraid to make more bad choices. Yet not making a move or a choice has been the great undoing of my life. My life has become stagnant while I wimper and have my emotional pity parties. It doesn't have to be like that.
NOT DARING TO RISK a wrong choice has kept me small and not too proud of myself.
I have stopped the emotional tantrums. When I start getting worked up, I say, "I made some bad choices. Ugh!" Yet, I got pretty much what I wanted out of life - (other than feeling unloved and insecure in my marriage). If that is what I want now {love and security), I can find ways to make myself feel loved and secure. That is where I am right now.
I realize I must accept H the way he is. It does not help me or him for me to be angry or resentful. I don't have to try to FIX things with him. He does not want or is not able to LOVE ME (for whatever reason). I don't need to figure him out. I DO want to have love and security. I get to work on that now.
Working on ME
Submitted by jennalemone on
I am turning a corner and just doing what H seems to want. JUST LET HIM BE. I wanted us to be on this journey of life together. He wants to be left alone. OK. I don't have to feel shame for being someone who wants to live a good life and share that good life with someone. I do get to feel guilty, and forgive myself, for letting SO much slide and compromise myself so many times for H's sake of him wanting to "take it easy" on himself. I have made the mistake of giving too much too long and making myself sick with frustration. I learned the lesson. Follow your heart. Make the mistakes and go on.
Hey Jenna
Submitted by kellyj on
You can only work on yourself right? This is something you have control over no matter what and even if your H cannot or will not change.....you can make positive changes for yourself. No matter what happens.....this has got to feel good on some level when you can actually feel these changes happening. At least all the energy is getting put to good use and you are benefiting from your own hard work. Like you said....it isn't easy but it does pay off. Just a bit of advise to pass along that my T said to me that he was really right in saying. It feels funny to make these changes and sometimes it feels funny in a bad way at first....disorienting, strange, lost et....but as he was explaining this to me at the time....sometimes you misread these initial feelings that are telling you that something is wrong and not to keep doing it. He said this is so normal and everyone who comes in to his office in this place says the same thing but...he also said in time.....this will pass and things will only be an improvement and feel better once you get used to it and those initial feelings will go away after a while as long as you stay on working on yourself and continue doing what you are doing. He was right in all respects. It's hared to change and it feels funny and unfamiliar and that in itself doesn't necessarily feel good. It also doesn't feel bad either which is one huge benefit. What I found that not feeling bad or good is really just being in the middle which if you think about it.....is kind of a balance or split between the two? Being out of balance for so long feels funny to be in the middle. You don't have the extreme highs or the extreme lows.....just kind of Okay. That takes some getting use to but after a while....it starts feeling good to be just Okay.
Anyway....I glad you are doing what you are doing for yourself. I don't think you can wrong in that much at the very least.
Take care:)
J
Thanks J for sharing what you have learned
Submitted by jennalemone on
J, your posts show lots of growth and willingness to share what you are learning and it is helping me to hear what you have learned. Thanks for responding. It used to be that work filled my time. I was working to make a living, to take care of the house and kids, to have friendships and visit old family. The time in my life for reflection is here now as I don't work as much (flexible half time) as I used to and am trying to find equilibrium and peace. I get to look at the past and how it went and take time to learn how I feel about my own history.
Love and community, for me, is the most important. And health so that you are able to involve yourself in love and community. Communication and willingness to show up are keys to love and community. I realize now that making a home, taking care of a family's nutrition and clothing and schedules and entertainment was what I thought fueled love and security. That is how it was in my original family. But there is something else to be added to that. Communication and being there. My parents did OK. I did OK. Going forward I will put less energy in the house and gardens and more energy into making arrangements WITH friends and family. Since H is in his own world, telling himself lies and making NO sense to me (his mind is as chaotic as his office and garage and business OR he is so used to BSing people that he can't have an open, honest conversation anymore), I must find camaraderie elsewhere. His only quest seems to be to "get away" with stuff. I will stop feeling ashamed of being married to "lying sales guy" and I will instead say to myself, "I was wrong to have loved and trusted that. Now, take care of your own ego and find what you want. Love and security."
I big part of ME will need to die for me to be able to NOT be and do as I had for H. I have been OBSESSED with his well-being, his mistakes, his seeming cruelty, his inexplicable reactions, his rejection and ignoring the family. His seeming senseless and odd rationalizations about everything. The parts of me that will die are frustration, tenacity, pleading with God, resentment, stubborn will, pride. This will take some pain to do this to myself and let all the things that I was guarding myself go and I will lose some things and become more vulnerable.
I will need my counselor. I don't think I can operate my feelings for H and these habits out of myself alone. But the promise of coming out of it without the pain and confusion will be worth walking through some removals of things that are not healthy for me.
...willingness is saying yes to the mystery of being alive in each moment. It bows in some kind of reverence to the wonder of life itself... ---Gerald May
wow--this stopped me in my tracks
Submitted by dvance on
Holy cow did this post stop me cold. I think OFTEN about when I will be able to leave hubby and what I will do to manage in the meantime, but what do I want??? That's a little different. I have no earthly idea. Like the OP I want my two boys to grow up successful and balanced and happy and have passion for something. I want to have a successful career for myself so I have something to be good at/passionate about. But that's not exactly the same thing. I think most of us married to ADHD people stop wanting things for ourselves because so much of our energy is directed outward--towards managing everything that the ADHD spouse doesn't manage, cleaning up after them, anticipating a crisis and heading it off at the pass. One of the hardest things I have had to learn in the past three years (married for 20 but the last three have been especially hellish) is to just keep quiet. Just stop talking so much. Keep it to yourself-whatever IT might be. So what I might want is the space with another person in the future where it was safe to say what was on my mind AND the person actually focused on and retained what you had to say. Is that even a thing? I am so used to not being paid attention to that I often wonder if it would be too suffocating if someone actually did keep track of me. I have learned that DH barely notices what I do, so I do a lot of stuff that I never even tell him. So maybe I want someone who notices and cares what I am up to?? I don't know how to word it exactly. At this point DH and I are just roommates. I don't know if I even want anything from him. Our marriage counselor asks us each week what went well. If we didn't actively fight, that means it went well. Isn't there more to a marriage than that? I am pretty much only going to the counselor so that when I do leave I can say that I did try, there is really no point to counseling any more. What do I want? An actual adult partner who can stand on his own two feet but is happy to have me along. Who doesn't necessarily NEED me but is really glad I am there with him.
Someone who notices and cares
Submitted by jennalemone on
dvance, you said it...what you and I both want. SOMEONE WHO NOTICES AND CARES. That is what we want. It is a human NEED. To be in community. But if the person we live with does not notice or care, it not only is not serving a basic need for us, it also feels like daily rejection.
dvance, keeping quiet loosing self
Submitted by dedelight4 on
Everything you said I have felt and wondered myself. I learned that whatever I said wasn't heard and was wanted on his own terms. What I needed and desired wasn't cared about, and each time I let go of something I cared about, a part of me was chipped away with it.
I would have LOVED for H to have (even a tiny bit) ask me something about myself, touched me tenderly for a moment during the day, give me a kiss for no special reason or just give me a random compliment once in a while. But as the years went on, and regardless if I did those things for him, he never returned the affection Or did the affectionate actions that HE himself wanted but wouldn't return. Everyone needs attention, everyone needs to feel love and that SOMEONE cares about you, most of all the one you choose to spend the rest of your life with.
Dede....What Was It That You Cared About....
Submitted by kellyj on
that he didn't? For example..........?
Still polling here if you wouldn't mind?
J
I am with all of you discussing this topic...
Submitted by Zapp10 on
dvance, you said "one of the hardest thing I have had to learn is to just keep quiet" Excuse my language but LOFL!!! THIS I can so relate to (along with so much else spoken in these posts) but THIS so speaks to the idiocy of the WHOLE relationship!
Over the past couple years I have taken this tact more often...and it is hard initially but repetition of "don't overwhelm" him helped.....once again.....his needs come first.
Well, since my freak out last week when I "lost" it and yelled "LOOK at me! THIS IS NOT ME! I cannot stand myself! I cannot live like this one more day. YOU have no clue what a nightmare the ADD causes because you can't be bothered to find out and as far as you're concerned I am the problem! Well I am NOT the problem as of now. "
I left, went for a long drive and the person that came back is no longer an extension of him. I am upstairs permanently until I decide where to go(physically) from here. I can't explain how calm I feel these past few days. I interact on my terms and I am finding much more to do with my time than think about saving our relationship. I am NOT going to be quiet FOR him but I can easily remain quiet on anything to do with him.....and it is amazing to hear myself say..
"you want to go to the vet with me? Sure!.....I'M DRIVING" (He hates that).
He needed a hand with something outside...."sorry I am in the middle of something....won't stop, you will have to wait" Can we say he was NOT happy? Can I say....not my problem?
I am not being mean spirited here......I am finding my voice after "stuffing it" to BE there for anything that was about him. And I DO see the co-dependence on my part......and I like the independence I am enjoying now.....
."what's that? you're hungry? ....FEED yourself then......."
"your bed sheets are dirty? Change them. OH..you don't know where the sheets are at? LOOK for them....we only have one closet"(for the past 20 years.
"you spilled milk? That's too bad"
"you need a few bucks? Bank is where it's been for the past 20 years"
"we need baling twine for baling? better get a move on" "you want ME to go?" " uh....no"
"white shirt for church isn't clean? ....what's your point?..Oh laundry?....I did mine"
"you want me to take that route? uh....no"
Don't ask me how I am in this "place" of calm but I am liking it alot.(That melt down I had TRULY showed ME how BAD I was). Emotionally, I cannot be tied to him anymore and even though I don't know where I am going from here.....I am sure it is better than staying in a "marriage" where I don't matter because of DENIED ADD.
Thank you to all those who post here....you have all been and will continue to give insight and support about the ADHD Roller Coaster and I will be reading....from a different perspective. My H will always be a part of my life.....but a lot more on my terms.
Bravo for arriving at these
Submitted by dvance on
Bravo for arriving at these conclusions!! I have these long long conversations in my head and then tell myself to let it go. I will not bother saying most of what I think to DH because it won't matter. It used to feel terribly neglectful to me to set those boundaries. Now it doesn't bother me. An example of how bizarre things are in my marriage: Sundays we go to church. Our church is about 30 minutes from our apartment, in downtown Chicago. We often go for brunch after or bum around in the city since we are there anyway. This week Sunday we went to church and then DH immediately got in the car to come home. What a drag. It was a GORGEOUS day out and I had a taste for blueberry pancakes. But no, we drove the 30 minutes to mass, we were in the church for an hour and then drove 30 minutes back home. DH wanted to do the grocery shopping. So he did that and I went out for blueberry pancakes alone. How dumb is that. I was gone about 3 hours--walked around a bit after my pancakes. DH never asked where I had gone. And I beat him home. How he spent 3 hours in the grocery store is a mystery to me. He claims it was that crowded. I don't buy it, but I honestly don't care what he was doing. Both of us, when we go to bed, just get up and go to bed. Neither of us says good night to the other and I cannot remember the last time we went to bed at the same time. DH always wakes up before me. He just gets up and goes about his business. I set my own alarm and get going when I need to. In the past I used to not set a separate alarm, but then DH doesn't bother to wake me so I missed a few appointments. He would say to me didn't you have an 11:00 yoga class (when it was like 10:30 and I clearly was going to miss it or be late) but he would not come in to check that I was up and going. I am not being terribly articulate, but that seems so odd to me. There is no common sense or common courtesy. If I text him he may or may not answer and I cannot figure out the criteria for what gets an answer and what doesn't.
The point I am trying to make is this: I am incredibly lonely and so very disappointed that at age 45 I feel old and alone. I made a lousy choice in a husband 21 years ago and this is the result. All I want is to be left alone. To not have to make decisions for anyone but myself. To do what I want, when I want, period. To not have to watch the utter bizarre-ness that is and ADHD person trying to get through life in the most circuitous way possible. In the meantime: boundaries. Like I said I have these long conversations in my head and then tell myself to let it go. That helps.
The one thing that sticks in my craw is how baffled DH seems to be when we sit at counseling and I don't say much. He claims to want to know what is on my mind but all the evidence is to the contrary. I just want to scream at him I AM BEHAVING IN THE WAY YOU TAUGHT ME TO BEHAVE!! You taught me to not tell you things by not remembering what I have told you. You taught me not to worry/care/keep track of when you are coming home by not coming home when you said you would. You taught me to not need you by not being fully present when you are around. You taught me to not ask for your feedback by not having an opinion or answer when I ask a question. And now you are surprised that I have built a life that pretty much doesn't include you. What did you expect?
dvance...
Submitted by Zapp10 on
Our journeys are so similar. I read post after post...and they are me. The more I read....the more I see.....me, my H, ADD and not ADD.
Our common bond is the effect of ADD on our relationships. We are seeking to understand the "issue" and with that are, dare I say?....astounded to find....there is so much about our own selves we didn't know? I found myself "seeing" things I would never have believed if someone had pointed them out to me....oh my...a bit like our H's very dilemma with ADD?
At some point, our life journey with all its detours CAN get back on track.....to a different destination......ROAD TRIP!!!!
I am not so much after....happy.....as I am ...peace. I am finding that in peace......I see things more clearly. Am not so hasty in conclusion. Being in the chaos of denied ADD for SO long has a very insidious way of messing with us. I cannot "help" my H while in the very chaos he creates. I know everyone's circumstances are different.....there are children, jobs, finances.... soo many responsibilities. STRUGGLING becomes a normal way to live because it happened so slowly you don't see it and NOW that we do....we take ACTION......right and WRONG.....but we didn't know....so we learned......and tried to undue the added harm WE did.....and it is still a confusing mess.....because of denied ADD.
My catalyst was my "meltdown" in front of my H. He was surprised and said....nothing....but I KNEW ....he HEARD every word. And I knew that....even tho he may have thought this was another moment like so many others.....it was NOT for me. It is not easy to NOT fall back into the "habit" of what has been but it is FOREMOST in MY mind. I am first in my thoughts where he has ALWAYS been. Try not thinking about your H for one day......you might notice something...odd? kinda different? I had to be the catalyst for change....and it had to be me first......the real me first......and down the road.....my H may or may not like the real me...THAT is up to him. I cannot expect a LOVING relationship with denied ADD that is raising HELL.
I don't have the time issue common with ADD. When is it going to be the time to put EFFORT/WORK into a failing relationship? NOW/ NOT NOW? I believe we make the mistake of once again"allowing" them to dictate(unknowingly once again).....the time. When do we finally say and mean......time is up......?
You are in my prayers. YOU can do this. YOU decide what YOU want. You love your H? You can love you....too. It's not either or.....it's both and at the same time.....who da thought?
PS. I am 16 years older than you. I remember 45......it involved a major new journey(daughter died) for me.....and I am still here...and I love LIFE. My marriage sucks but that is just a PART of my life......NOT who I am period.....a wife. I have lots of other attributes....who knew?.....I certainly didn't. Not being able to be a mom to my daughter anymore.......THAT was and still is, on occasion, hard. I am in your corner, dvance.
Road Trip
Submitted by kellyj on
Zapp,
Why does your marriage suck? (this isn't a trick question) But it is a poll so to speak.
What's missing?
What aren't you doing that you want to do?
What is a good marriage to you and what would that look like?
I'm curious but I don't want to seed your answers. I'll come back and compare later? There is a reason I'm asking and namely wanting to know specific to you and what you said. Pleas explain. LOL (that's humor there not a demand lol )
J
J...Re: road trip
Submitted by Zapp10 on
Glad you asked about my statement "marriage sucks"
I need to qualify that ....it wasn't always true....
I was good with the marriage for 36 years. WE both grew up, discovered things about each other(waaay too short knowing each other beforehand. Met in January married in July, one week after I graduated high school) No I wasn't pregnant and truthfully.....marriage wasn't even on my mind.....WTH? Go figure... Anyway.....we DID blend together fairly well. Little things/ big things but we managed.....together.
What happened 7 years ago is he quit caffineated coffee cause it was keeping him awake at night. He switched to de caf. You need to understand.....my H drinks coffee ALL DAY LONG. He is NEVER without it and if he is he will stop at nothing to get it. The dr who diagnosed him said "caffeine is quite a stimulant for ADHD and studies are showing this". Since he has drank coffee from 12 years of age.......and then STOPS.......that's when the ROLLERCOASTER started.( I am sure the ADD was there all along just not to the extreme ). I can remember saying to him "what is going on? WE HAVE NEVER had such a COMMUNICATION issue EVER?" and it has been so sad ever since. So, yes, the last 7 years of this marriage has sucked.
Reciprocal conversation..... I get that when I am out with friends and I LOVE it. To have a man act like he likes talking with me?.....I don't even go there.
Adding a P.S. here.......marriage is DAILY life. I did not make a mistake in marrying my H. Daily life was in hindsight quite doable with it's ups and downs......but this....
this is NOT LIVING (where marriage is concerned) and since it takes 2.......and as H would say....".the ADD just isn't THAT bad "........then he can believe that......alone.
Facinating Zapp
Submitted by kellyj on
You know one of the biggest clues my Mom was the one with ADHD? She drank coffee like there was no tomorrow! lol Like two pots a day I'm not kidding. No one had ever seen anyone drink coffee like that before and we all were wondering about that. You just reconfirmed my already 90% sure self diagnosis of my mother with that one. I think that bumped it up to 95%. lol By the way. I've never like coffee and don't really like caffine either. It gives me a headache and the jitters (grinding). And I don't like bitter. Take it back. If you dump 3/4 of cup of some sugary flavored syrup in it....it's not too bad. lol
One more question. Do you have kids? I can't remember? I'll come back later and give you my thoughts after I have a chance to see what others have said. Thanks.
J
J,Now I get to be an...
Submitted by Zapp10 on
annoying proud mom. Just kidding:-) I have 2 daughters....one just turned 34 (OMG!) and the other will forever be 24 (would be 41) and I drive by her "home" everyday, NOT because I want to.Youngest looks like me.....oldest like her dad. We made beautiful girls with beautiful hearts:)
P.S. My H drank( I AM NOT KIDDING)....an average of 4-6 10 cup pots daily! It never ceased to amaze me.....now he is down to 3-4 8 cup pots. And he smokes( can we say highly self medicated?)
So sorry about your daughter,
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
So sorry about your daughter, Zapp10.
rosered, So nice to
Submitted by Zapp10 on
hear from you and thank you! I hope you are well! You were one I "followed" and I hope life is "brighter" for you.
Yes Zapp
Submitted by kellyj on
I'm sorry too. I was thinking about this too. I'll come back.
J
dvance....this is the story of our lives......
Submitted by c ur self on
I think the story you've shared here is in many respects a common theme among many of us who post here. Or are with husbands and wives who are married to partners w/ little to no commonality.
There are many things that can cause this....Adhd is definitely one of those things....I to play out in my head, and even verbally if I'm alone. The picture of our existence, and how it should be...And like you, I too, have learned that it does a couple of things...It allows me to have my personal time to let out frustrations, it also helps keep me focused on what a healthy marriage should look like. And it gives me time to accept the reality of our differences....
I think those of us who have been married for several years who find that our lives have been in many ways lost to some degree, and basically we are just contributing to the problem, (wanting change in the reality and habits our partners way of thinking and living) finally come to realize, we must move on with our focus on what a healthy, positive self should look like....
I think my problem and many I read here's problem is we hate it so bad (we can't find agreement, peace, unity and the intimacy that should be there when two become one) that we can backslide at moments into what we deep down so desire and what we feel should be attainable (it's all around us, our friends, our married children, we see it in other couples daily) but, in reality on the spectrum of commonness many of us are so far apart without drastic and miraculous intervention this life together we lust after is only an illusion....So c ur self and friends we must Accept it and be at peace....So we can breathe; so we can live:)
Blessings
C
Time C
Submitted by kellyj on
C...I'm hitting everyone in this thread with an idea so I'm asking you the same thing based on what you said specific to you?
Is the amount of time you spend with you wife the problem? Or how you spend it with her? What's the commonality dysfunction between what you want and what your wife wants?
When you say breath? Are you smothered? Is that what peace is for you? Is it space? Or is it time? Or is it both? Too much...or too little? Again...I'm polling?
J
J
Submitted by c ur self on
No J, it's not the time nor do I feel smothered...(she isn't here when she is here much of the time)....It's the insidious effects of control and denial. It destroys everything in it's path. If a person does not have an appetite for responsibility as it pertains to their own roles in life then dysfunction and dependence will always surround them. Because to exist means you're either responsible or someone is carrying you. Or your an expert at using others.
I could write a book on how she lives, but, it would only be a haunting reminder for me, piss many off who reads it, and it wouldn't change anything..Also I'm more concerned about how C lives these days....That's what is allowing me to breathe, and to have peace...It has nothing to do with her...
"The table leg is made of oak, so the cat can scratch it all he wants, but it will still stand"
Blessings Friend...
C
Thanks C
Submitted by kellyj on
I'm really beginning to see a lot of things about myself, my wife and others. I know we shared some similar things or experiences...but here the effect it has on you and trying to differentiate the things that people have to say...needs a lot more information than is being given at times. What I keep hearing from you and what we share in our thinking about this...is the insidious effect of control and denial. I think you could throw in a good dose of "assuming." I guess that just goes with the territory? I could be wrong...but I don't think I am.
I just had a flash back about risk taking and gambling. (from school)
Risk taking....is using available information...and making an educated guess.
Gambling....is rolling the dice and hoping for success. ( an assuming that you'll win ) I don't know if that has anything to do with anything.....it just popped into my head?
J
J....Assuming....
Submitted by c ur self on
I think assuming comes from denial...If you tell someone that you love them, their only frame of reference is their own experience's...So when the fruit of love isn't what they think it should be; they begin self-inflicting emotional trauma. It is what happened to me early on, and something I continue to fight against (be aware of)....It was born out my expectations vs the reality of what was being produced right in front of me daily...
Acceptance of reality; will set us free....it doesn't matter how much I hate the realities in my life or hers....It can only change in any of us when we accept it.....
Yes we don't always get the depth of information we need here, but, I for one am thankful for someone to share with. Someone to learn with....Someone to pray with....
Blessings Friend; Got to hit the shower.....
C
Dvance
Submitted by kellyj on
Why aren't you buying the time it took your H to go shopping. What do you think he did during that time? (not suspect or devious intentions I'm sure. I didn't get that either?) But what do you think he did by using up all the time in between?
People do what they want to do in essence whether it's with you or not? Again, no suspicion of foul play....just wondering what he does with his time since it's not with you? As I said to Zapp....I don't want to seed this too much and just want what you think? I'm polling you too just to see what people say? Thanks
J
You may feel neglected since your H doesn't pay any attention to you and this sounds like just like what is happening...not hard to figure out when your going to eat pancakes by yourself. Thinking...he may not want to get away from you per se....but get away to do something else other than pancakes?
All good questions J and
Submitted by dvance on
All good questions J and worth thinking about. As for where do I think he was or what was he doing for 3 hours if not actually shopping? I have a couple of ideas, but generally I don't think about it too hard or it would drive me nuts. In the past 4 years there have been 3 other women with whom lines were crossed. He may not have had time to physically go see one of them or someone new, but he could have been on the phone for a while sitting in the car. He plays games on his iPad every free moment he has, so he could have been doing that. On several occasions he has been seen sitting in his car watching Netflix--this has been reported to me by friends on more than one occasion. For example, he was due at a friend's apartment to do a side job at a certain time and he was late. The friend looked outside and there he was sitting in his car watching Netflix and lost track of time. The friend went out to get him and saw that he was watching Netflix. This has happened more than once with more than one person. So those are all possibilities. Also, he is the slowest, most plodding, deliberate person I have ever seen so it very well may have taken him that long to shop. The point is--I don't care and that's the sad part. A happy couple would have wanted to be together on a beautiful Sunday. As it is, he rushed out of church to get to the grocery store. I have no idea what the big hurry was and I didn't even bother to say I had a taste for blueberry pancakes. Both of those things to me represent a big missed opportunity. I should have opened my mouth and said hey honey, the grocery shopping can wait, let's go enjoy this pretty morning and have brunch. But I didn't. That should tell you where my head is too. I am tired of all the effort coming from me. Another example: we used to live right in downtown Chicago, in a 44 story highrise. Now we live about 30 minutes outside the city, in Evanston. I have a standing dinner date with my best girlfriend who lives in our old building--every two weeks we have an early supper and talk. She is an early to bed person, so we meet at like 4:30 and she is home by 7pm. We have been doing this for years. Now, rather than go home at 7pm and do nothing when I am already all dressed up, I usually go walk around downtown by myself. I have gone to movies, met other friends, browsed in bookstores, stumbled on art fairs--all kinds of fun stuff. Alone. DH never asks what I did after dinner. And what a shame that I would prefer to do those things alone rather than come home and then perhaps the two of us go to a movie or for an after dinner drink. Another example: a few weeks ago, we found a wooden model of a trebuchet that we bought for DH to build with the boys (our boys are 15 and 17 but trebuchet VS catapult is a THING in our family!!). All four of us were there for this purchase and DH specifically said the three of them could build it together. And three weeks later, it is still sitting there. Now, it sounds like I am tallying up all the ways DH is a jerk and that's not really what I am doing. I am trying to give examples of why I am all out of trying. Our marriage therapist asks him in almost every session why HE doesn't make any plans for us and it's a big litany of excuses--he's tired, I'm tired, the kids need whatever, he has an early day--it goes on and on. I am tired of asking why he did something and being told "I am an adult, I can do whatever I want." I am tired of him calling to say he will be home at 7pm and not actually walking in the door until 10:30. I used to ask what took him so long and I got the most absurd responses that I don't even ask any more. I don't care WHERE you are, no accident will hold you up for 3 hours. My favorite is when he tells each of the boys and me a different time that he will be home and he isn't home any of those three times. That is pretty entertaining. He has an unpredictable job--just say you honestly don't know when you'll be home. This is a man who will get up at 4am to drive somewhere his company would happily pay to have him fly to. Waste of time.
I have worked very hard to ACCEPT reality. I am still trying to sort out the difference between acceptance and resignation. If DH's communication style is really circular and he gets mad when I ask too many questions, I should limit the questions I ask and not know things in the interest of keeping the peace, right? Example: I will ask him what time his flight is the next day and he will say he has to get up at 5am. That tells me nothing. Sometimes he takes a cab to the airport, sometimes he drives his own car--I don't know if that matters time wise. So I ask again...what time is your flight and then he will say he has to check, he doesn't remember exactly. Then how do you know you have to get up at 5am?? It's just absurd. But if I ask a third time, he gets mad. So even after two specific questions I don't know what time his flight is and I give up asking. Is that acceptance of his limits or resignation that we can't communicate in a substantial way? I don't know the answer to that.
Thanks Dvance
Submitted by kellyj on
And no...I asked and you aren't tallying negatives. It's actually what I wanted to hear for that reason that I'm holding off on. I want to hear what others have said. I will tell you this however...if there is a side to be on here...I'm on your side...not figuratively either. I explain more but that answer you are wondering about? I'm trying to invent a crystal ball and I think it's working. lol I'm right on the verge as they say. I'll come back later...I have some things to say. Trust me on this one;)
J PS...I get the too many questions and the non-answers too. It's why I need that crystal ball. This has more to do with me than my wife just so you know. Let me ask you this much....do you have fun cruising the blvd. downtown and that time alone or do you wish you had someone to do it with? Namely your spouse if things were different?
I would LOVE to be holding
Submitted by dvance on
I would LOVE to be holding someone's hand, bumming around in the city or one of the cool neighborhoods around Chicago. If things were different, yes, I would love the company. As it is, I am lonely and alone too often. I go out to eat alone, go to movies alone, I have been to the opera alone--if I can't find a friend to do something with, I will still go if I want to badly enough and it doesn't bother me to do those things alone--I am fine to read a book in a restaurant alone. But if I had a person that was actually comfortable to be around that would be divine. Constant monitoring of what comes out of my mouth at any given moment is super tiring. I wish we could find that sweet spot between doing things together and alone time. I have other friends who can--the husband might belong to a men's softball team for example, and go for a beer with the team after, while the wife catches up on girly TV at home that night. Or the wife might belong to a book club and the husband stays home and tinkers in the basement that night. (those are actual examples from friends I know). Another friend has a husband who is quite serious about his racketball, so she and their two kids walk him to the Y where he plays and then go for a walk on their own and come back for him. Every single time he plays a racquetball game? Of course not, but sometimes. My point is I know it can be done--it's like a Venn diagram--his stuff, her stuff and shared stuff. For a while now, our circles barely intersect.
Coming Back... Dvance
Submitted by kellyj on
I hope Zapp is eves dropping too. I wasn't sure exactly how people would respond to my questions...but my intention was to be specific so I could see the differences and the particular needs and things that everyone wants differently with their own situation. This might get long so I'm not making any promises. lol
I wanted to start out by bringing this up again here...
"Everything that is in agreement with our personal desires seems true. Everything that is not puts us in a rage." People who are prone to anger have a set pattern of beliefs, attitudes, expectations and behaviors that insist on getting their own way. They have a strong case of the "shoulds" and "musts" for others. They believe that there is a certain way that others should act and become angry when their expectations are not met. They need to be seen as good, innocent and superior in their knowledge and how things should be done. They may use charm or anger and intimidation to get their way.
A system is two or more individuals who interact. A couple, a family, a neighborhood and our planet are all examples of systems. Systems can be put on a continuum from open to closed. In open systems, people talk and exchange ideas and feedback so the people stretch and grow. A closed system is one which keeps new information out to protect the status quo. Closed systems do not stretch because no new ideas are allowed in. The feedback loop continues the same way of thinking, precluding change and growth. The person who needs to be right all of the time is a closed system big time! He cannot allow his ideas to be challenged shuts down input from others. People in closed systems are rarely happy. Unfortunately, the need to be right is accompanied with a rigid stance and anger. Others distance from them and they cannot experience intimacy and connection. They cannot understand why their partner is so angry with them--their rationale is that the partner should just change! They do not want to be confused with facts when their mind is made up!"
It took me this long to figure this out with a lot of observing and paying note to things. But the most telling thing of all to me was what just happened on my vacation with my wife and brother in law, It took that to bring this to the surface but it was super easy to see once I saw what I was trying to find.
To start...this paints a rather bleak picture of my wife and in her defense...she doesn't fit this completely. Who is does fit to perfectly is her brother. OMG!! He is a closed system and an island unto himself. On one hand...I feel for him deeply. On the other hand...he is impossible to deal with and nothing comes out of him to tell you anything. His ability to communicate is so bad....it's a wonder he's made it as far as he has since he can be so difficult to read even for my wife at times.
This as I see it...is #2 and #3 on your list Dvance. And the most poignant part is where it starts out saying
"Everything that is in agreement with our personal desires seems true. Everything that is not puts us in a rage."
And forget about the charm part....anger and intimidation are all I have ever seen with either on of them as a means to get their needs met. Mostly her brother. My wifes version of intimidation is pretty harmless and non offensive mostly...but none the less hurtful if you are really sharing anything of importance to you. Her brother on the other hand uses guttural utterances and "sounds" to communicate his needs or express himself and mostly just blows up when he can't find the words to say which is almost always. A lot of mumbling and unfinished sentences which leaves you going ..huh? This is a completely foreign language that even for their family themselves cannot really understand, I've literally (before her Mom died) been sitting at the table and watched the same even happen...and each of them will come up with a different interpretation of something so obvious that it's hard not to say anything? lol
And that's just it. I said my wife interprets and this I need to correct. I'm the one interpreting...what they do is translate everything. Translate, transmute, transfer into something else entirely. That crystal ball I've been working on is actually said better....a translator just so I can understand them sometimes? It's really what I've been struggling to figure out just so I can understand what's being said ? You mentioned this yourself which is why I brought this up. And the reason for this is that closed system of communication. Nothing new comes in and nothing new goes out (of what little actually does?)
But this is just skin deep in some ways. It's a manifestation of the isolation on the inside I think. If you think about it...and island,.,,with limited resources where no new food or supplies are coming into is closed off from the rest of the world and nothing new comes in to replace what goes out. It's like having to ration your food supply since it just keeps getting lower and lower as you watch the level go down over time. This condition of scarcity really really shows.
So if you can see the island as those Venn circles you were mentioning...your just bumping up against his and never truly intersecting. The best you can hope for is a parallel existence in everything. (including activities and things you do together....at best).
And back to that translating effect? Which in those terms....is why you have to so careful with everything you say. Words get turned around in there meaning from the way that you said them and this is maddening as you know?
I was going to say that I am much more diverse in my interests in most things in comparing the two of us (due to no knew information being allowed) but I could never say that in front of my wife since she would translate that into...."Oh, so you think your so much better than me. Wise guy eh?" lol And she'll hear that as part of a sentence and blurt right into what your saying before you've actually said what you want to say and lose the entire train of thought. I can't tell you how many times I got upset over this and would say.."That had nothing to do with what I was saying and you just interrupted me." Did she get that after 500 attempts in saying that? What do you think? lol
Back to diversity...ah hem. lol I am more diverse than she is and am completely open to new experiences which just makes this same point even more clear. My ability to flex and adapt is compared to her being as stiff as a board sometimes. Combine that with cave man animal sounds like her brother uses and you've got no ability to communicate or express things at all sometimes. lol (mostly her brother there for sure)
But in terms of this. I can interpret your husbands behavior you gave...only based on how I see it if it were me. this could be wrong....but I thought it would be interesting for you to compare to (again..something I would never do with my wife since she hates comparisons and only hears them as some form of criticism even though they aren't if I did them the same way with you here? I dunno...it makes it difficult to say anything or offer anything if everything new or different is seen as some kind of threat? Surprises are even worse. I can't surprise her at all with gifts of any kind so that does kind of take the fun out of it for me. Like here.....buy me this. Thinking to myself..."why don't I just give you the money and you can go buy it." Which is exactly what I think? lol
Oh and by the way....her brother does that thing where you ask him if he'd like something and he says "yes...that sounds good" then later...he doesn't want it or has any interest. Yes means no....but sometimes yes means yes. But only sometimes and not others??????? lol But No definitely means no. Except on rare occasions when it means yes and you didn't translate that right??? LOL This is that thing were things that are desired are seem true. Which means....what is true now....will not be true later when the desire changes. I want this....but later.... now I want that. "What do you mean I wanted this....no I didn't. I never said that?"( oh yes you did....but I'm not going to argue or even bring it up .Shifting sands...OMG!! ) Moody or what? I'm telling you!! lol
Desire = what we want? See the problem? This becomes a logistical nightmare and mathematical impossibility to predict ahead of time based on mood. AAAHHHHH!!!!!! Understanding the language is the best you can hope for. Interpreting animal noises is easier actually. lol (her brother again) It was easier to see it in her brother first...and then apply the toned down version to my wife. That's what did it for me. My wife says also...she has come a long way herself. This gives me the same hope I can see for myself in comparing my past :)
And before I forget...for Zapp. I was more extroverted (extraneous in all ways) before I went on Adderall. I shifted to the middle and am split almost down the middle introvert/extrovert now. (that coffee thing you mentioned) This took some getting use to since....what I liked before more....I like less now. That's a weird thing to adjust to for the very first time. Split down the middle...is a good place to be all things considered:)
Anyway. This image of your H getting out of church in a hurry to go sit in a car and watch Netflix in some ones driveway? The last thing I would think that this had anything to do with some illicit affair(those calls you mentioned even in the past) if that were me and even him in this case.
Exactly as I would see this from my own experience in the past. I really don't like sitting in church ever. This is a very uncomfortable thing for me to do and always has been. It has nothing to do with my feelings toward religion...and everything to do with having to sit and be quiet and not be able to get up and move around if needed. The stress this creates for me just builds and builds and I'm clock watching and chomping at the bit to bet the hell out of there as fast as I can. This is one of those times I need to go check out and be alone to come down from this and watching TV or a movie is the perfect thing to do this. The last thing I want to do is be with anyone or have to talk with someone about this...either to explain why I need to do this...or wanting to confront anyone at all. I'd be apt to find somewhere I can go and just be left alone and this is exactly how I interpret this as ADHD symptom management. Putting my brain on Alpha wave and watching mindless TV is the perfect cure to calm my nerves and ease my tension. The last thing I want to do when I've had that kind of experience...is go sit in another place (restaurant) and do more of the same while having to have a conversation with anyone.
I typically....(when out with people at a restaurant)...will excuse myself after an hour or more and say I'm going to the rest room....but what I actually do is wander around or even go outside and get a breath of fresh air to reset myself for another round. When asked "where'd ya go...what took you so long"...I'll lie and say I had a big job...or something along that order so as not to offend anyone or make them think that needing to leave for a bit had anything to do with them. Really if you think about it....other people might immediately assume that their company was boring if you have to get up to get fresh air from only sitting and talking with them for an hour and nothing is further from the truth. I would too if that were me...but here's the deal there. I tell my wife this and she knows what I'm doing and why I say that. That is.... for the benefit of others with that important bit of information for her so she is on the same page. Open...or.... closed...communication style. There you go.
That would also include telling her how much I hate going to church even if it were important to her. He may feel like he has to even if he really doesn't;t want to. It's a distinct possibility....he's doing it for you as a sign of respect and doesn't want to disappoint you and is just making appearances. I say this because my father did the same thing for at least a while. At one point in time since he only had Sundays off. He quit going. And me right along with him since this was my out. lol I'm sure that was a consideration since I don't think it was hard to figure out how much I hated going to church and sitting still and quiet. I didn't read the literature....I read the brochure with the program so I could keep track of time and count down how much torture I had to endure. lol My mom was constantly giving me the stink eye and trying to steal my program from me and replacing it with a prayer book. I can tell you.....very little of that ever made it to my knowledge base at the time!! lol
And in comparison too. I'd go with you to the Opera even if this was not exactly what I would normally go do. Just to see something different and new and give it a try. This is my MO for everything...but I would also communicate that ahead of time saying that I might like it...or I might not. But I love music and theater (the arts) and I'm thinking as I see it....it will be entertaining no matter what even if only one time?
And because my open communication style....I do like sitting and conversing over meals and out. Plus....I like to explore and cruise around like you do and talk about ideas in an open exchange. Saying....I like to do that and it's fun but not everyone does.
I also would tell you straight up about how much I don't like church even if it were important to you so you'd know that. If it was that important to you....you'd know why I was going. That is...for you...but not for me. But I would do it just so you know. Without this kind of communication...no one knows what anyone likes or doesn't like until you get there and at that point, it only comes out as bitching and moaning (or animal noises lol )
Not the best way to handle it...all things considered? Being an island unto yourself...isolates them from you and you from them and no one knows why?
The thing about gifts as well. If you are afraid of speaking up or can't tell the other person what you like....how can they know. That's like rolling the dice and hoping you hit the bulls eye?
The last thing I wanted to mention about this...is the weight things carry and the language that means Love to another person. As far as I go....I look for things that say Love...and don't give much value to other things that are important to my wife. We are totally different in what speaks Love to each other and there is no way to assume or know unless you know that ahead of time.
The story I include somewhere here on the forum about the dying man (of thirst) in the desert... who finds and Oasis with a wealthy Sheik who offers the man everything he owns including his daughters plus a banquet feast on top ot it. The problem for the dying man was....there was not a drop to drink...anywhere in sight.
Gifts of Love or of any kind.....no matter how thoughtful or considerate (the thought) won't carry any weight if you need something specific and never get it. You'll still be empty even after getting the wrong gift 1000 times if your dying of thirst and there's not water to drink? And the other will think your ungrateful or rude without understanding why that is? I think with my wife for example....if you don't hit the bulls eye exactly....it's as if you never tried in the first place.
There's a reason why my wife is difficult...and that pretty much explains it.
J
What
Submitted by kellyj on
but what do I want??? That's a little different. I have no earthly idea.
Dvance...I guess this is part two of what I asked you already? Do you know now?
J
What Do You Want? Dvance?
Submitted by kellyj on
but what do I want??? That's a little different. I have no earthly idea.
Dvance...I guess this is part two of what I asked you already? Do you know now? If you could be happy and be with your H....would his attention and affection be enough or would it have to do with the amount of time, the quality of time ( and what you did and how you used it? ) Just to narrow this down for you?
J
What would make me happy??
Submitted by dvance on
What would make me happy?? Gosh--you would think that would be an easy question but I just don't know at this point. I have a few ideas. I would like to enjoy doing things with my person--some things he likes, some things I like and some things we both like. For example--he is really good at archery and belongs to two archery clubs. I suck at archery and don't care for it, so that is something he can do on his own. I love opera, but he does not (honestly--I appreciate that opera is an acquired taste!!!) So I go with friends. That is fine, but there should be things we enjoy together. We both enjoy plays, bowling, eating out, some movies, museums (we have memberships to 2)--those things we could do together. And who knows what else we might like if we tried more things. On Thursday nights in the summer, there is dancing outside in a plaza two blocks from our house. Last summer I went every single Thursday with a friend and DH never joined me once. He was always working. Well, okay, he doesn't have to like the music or dancing, so I did it anyway and had a ball...without him. He has always had an unpredictable job and now travels too, so that I am fine with, but when he is home, all we do is sit in front of the TV at night. He tells me he doesn't like it when I am on my laptop while we are watching TV, but I cannot just sit there and stare at the TV in silence all evening. I read a bunch of mom blogs and teacher blogs and I get the New York Times online, so I do that while whatever is on. So item 1 is to enjoy doing things together--things we know we like and trying new things, just the two of us and with other couples. Item 2--I would like to have an actual conversation-a give and take of opinions and ideas, not just talking AT each other. Here's what I mean: if I offer an opinion or suggestion I am told he knows his job, he is an adult-he can do whatever he wants, or some version of that. So what motivation do I have to continue to offer anything? And when I talk about my job (assistant principal and junior high reading teacher) it comes out later, usually in therapy, that all I do is complain about my job. Which is hilarious because I LOVE my job and pay very close attention to NOT complaining so I don't have to hear about it later. So we can't talk about our jobs in any real way, any way that goes beyond just delivering information. I handle all the finances, he does none of that, so we don't share that. We have very different tastes in books--I have read things that I loved and handed to him and he doesn't read them. Again, he is not required to have my taste in books, but that is another missed point of connection. Item 3--I would like my person to retain information that I tell him. DH regularly does not recall things I tell him. Item 4--I would like my person to keep ME in the loop about what he is doing. To that end, I set up a google calendar for our family and shared it with DH and both boys. The boys use it--they post their work schedules to the family calendar. I have mine color coded--family stuff that we all see, another color for my stuff that only I see and a 3rd color for my work stuff that only I see. DH doesn't use it. In fact I have missed appointments that he made for the boys and didn't put on the calendar or even tell me about. Item 5--this one I don't exactly know how to word--I would like my person to LIKE what I do for them. Here is what I mean--I cannot even count how many gifts have gone unused. Some examples: at Christmas, DH said he might like some comfy tops for working at home. So I bought him 4 waffle knit comfy tops. He never wore them. Two I returned after a month and he has not noticed. He and my oldest son watch The Walking Dead. For Father's Day, getting on the adult coloring book craze, I got him a Walking Dead coloring book. It went in the bottom drawer of his night table, never to be seen again. Last Father's Day I got him a subscription to BirchBox which is a monthly box of samples of grooming stuff, tailored to your profile. I asked him about it before I did it and he said it sounded like fun. A year of monthly boxes later, he has an entire drawer of samples that don't get used. I put some of the bath stuff in the shower and it doesn't get used. When he got this new job, we went together and picked out a new work bag that would hold his laptop and files. He picked out a super nice expensive bag and two months later he set that one aside and bought a cheapo, crappy looking backpack at Target that he uses instead. He looks ridiculous carrying a backpack to work, but whatever. I sound like I want him to be oh-so-grateful and that is NOT what I mean. How can so many things I give him be so far off? Is it me that is clueless about HIM or is it something about him that he can't like things I give him? I love picking out surprises for people. I do that for my girlfriends and my kids, not my husband. Over time I have quit doing that kind of thing. I will see a book at the library by an author that he likes and walk right by instead of bringing it home. I will see a treat in a bakery that he would like and not bring it home. I am getting to the point that I hardly register things he might like and I hate that about myself. I am really not wording this well--no one is required to be grateful for what are supposed to be little treats given from the heart, that's not what I mean. It's another missed connection, missed opportunity to get closer, share an inside joke, enjoy a little treat together. And it just passes by and is lost.
So this was a super wordy answer to your question--what do I want? I thought I didn't know but I turns out I kinda do! All of my items seem to be around the theme of connection. So many missed opportunities for connection--that makes me sad. How many of those can pass by before you get to the point of no return with regard to a relationship. So many of the things I enjoy don't involve him. That makes me sad but I wonder if it's not too late. Is that resignation or acceptance? And furthermore, I feel like I made my own life out of necessity--over the 20 years of our marriage, DH has been stationed out of state, been deployed overseas, worked LONG hours, and moved out for 6 months. During all of those times, I kinda had to find a life of my own or I would have shriveled up and died. And now that we are three years away from being empty nesters and still young enough to enjoy a life together, there is little holding us together.
so J--sorry you asked?!?!?!?!?!
Ha! No...The Devil IS in the Details In this Case
Submitted by kellyj on
What does connection mean anyway? I know what it means to me, but does it mean that for my wife or everyone else?
We share #2 and #3 by the way. Part of what I get here!! lol This drives me crazy. I have some thoughts on this too. And that methodical plodding and moving like a sloth on downers? That one too. What up with that? I mean physically slow. Walking with my wife is difficult anyway since I feel like I'm in slow motion literally. Her pace and mine is like Speedy Gonzales, her's is very sloooooowww. If we are in a hurry and need to move faster....we're just going to late. Which means....I have to walk so slow my legs begin to hurt it's so far out of my normal rhythm. I'm more tired walking with her....than if I jogged around the block twice to even things out. lol
And by the way. I love music and will go see any music live usually. Dancing however?? eh? Dancing was for meeting women....once you meet them....the dancing stops'! lol kind of kidding but I'm not alone there by any means. Not all men....but it's not uncommon.( unless I'm really drunk and it's a blue moon ) If that's the case....you'll have a hard time getting me to leave the dance floor. (just like Patty Duke...remember? lose control!! lol )
I'll come back later;)
J
PS..On dancing..a passing thought. My older sisters used me a dance partner when I was little so they could practice up on there dance moves...you know....mashed potato, twist, the swim. Locomotion, slow dancing and turning in circles etc. lol. So I got pretty good early on. The problem? There still the only ones I know! lol That I and really hate being on stage and that makes me feel self conscious even though "I got rhythm man."...I just don;t like to show it but I will for the right person like my wife on occasion. But as I recall....I get the same reason from other guys too. Being on stage that is...That seems to be the real issue. I was so glad when Disco finally died!! John Travolta.I'm not. lol
J
J
Went back and look at your story...
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
<<
We have come to a point (40 years of marriage) where we cannot talk to each other any more. I can barely look at him anymore. I look at him and see all the times he ignored me and hurt my feelings and manipulated me...maybe it was all unintentional but it still affects a person to be so un-valued and demeaned. It is said we should NOT take other people's actions or even words personally. I tried to do that on a daily basis for 40 years. You know what happens when you stuff your real feelings and think you are strong enough to rationalize in neglectful, hurtful situations? One day you wake up and feel that you have never been loved or appreciated. And they (those people who feel entitled to only positive feelings) feel like they have done a great job...( to which you were the catalyst and contributor). One day you wake up and realize you have just been an extention of their wants and needs and YOU have not lived a life of integrity or joy yourself. You have been pretending things are GOOD ENOUGH. One day you realize that you don't even know WHAT you want or need because all you ever wanted since you had your own family was that your family be healthy, functional and loved. Then, when it is all over, you access your SELF. You did good by them. Pitched in and conversed the best you could with what you know how to do. Learned how to do things better so you ALL could have a nice life. WHY do you now NOT feel good about your SELF?
I realize now that I have been his fool. Just his tool. He has manipulated me all these years with empty promises and taking advantage. He knew my vulnerabilities because I was always open with him about my true thoughts and feelings. He used me to look good to the outside world....like things were normal about him. Nice clean, organized house, good children, nice wife. But HE was living an independent life. He would enjoy the comforts and stability of home when home was pleasant and things were taken care of. But if things were difficult or rocky or there was something to work through or converse or decide....he was overwhelmed and retreated to diversions so that HE did not have to FEEL the difficult feelings that come with ordinary life. He preferred to give his attention to things that were FUN, funny, happy and pleasure. I have been a single mom with one big oaf that came to the family when it was time to enjoy and play. But was missing in action when things needed to be sorted out and attended to....even money issues. He was not been able to TALK about money or spending. Not able? Or not willing - so he could independently spend and keep? I don't know since he does not talk.
He told me I am not fun enough and that happiness (my happiness in particularly) should come from the inside. He said I should work on my self. He said I worry too much....that is OUR problem...that I worry. This after 40 years of my over-functioning for the both of us.....I am not fun enough. I know what that means. Someone or some others in his life (with which he has no responsibilities or expectation) is more fun. Either that or ... he is a depressed recluse who prefers drinking beer and doing crossword puzzles and listening to the radio than to being a contributing partner in a family structure.
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After 40 years of marriage, I'm guessing that you're around 60 years old. If so, then it makes sense that you're trying to find something you can live with, because you're in this until the end - maybe because of age and finances.
I can understand that.
Others who are much younger may want to look at situations like this and think: Do I want to be just sucking it up when I'm 60, or do I want to get out while I still have many more years to find a more-sane life.
>>Others who are much younger
Submitted by Hysterical37 (not verified) on
OW....I'm Speculating
Submitted by kellyj on
From what you said before and clearly what your angry about I ( I get it....been there done that )
Is this the problem?
Over-responsibility is ego-driven and a sure path to burn out.
When are you Being Over-Responsible?
You are being over-responsible when you:
– Take responsibility for the feelings and choices of others
– Judge the decisions, feelings, and thoughts of others
– Take credit (good or bad) for others
– Give unsolicited advice (verbally or non-verbally!)
– Compromise what you believe is healthy for you
– Blame others for your life’s choices, situations, or results
Saying for the same reason my wife ended up like this but she was born into it but was not the source of the problem. She was the effect...not the cause?
But you weren't born into it....you got suckered into it as you've expressed before. (sand bagged by greed ) Another unpleasant side effect of those axis disorders you've brought up before. Have you ended up with some of these traits by default from being in this kind of greedy imbalance that you found yourself in?
I kind of figured that the tantrums and throwing your clothes away and destroying things is his way of letting you know the consequences of having a life ( your own) ? My mom ended up used up and empty and not knowing who she was? She did have these traits by the way....but she was born into that too and just jumped ship into the same thing with my father and he just took over where her mother left off.
I'm curious with you since you've pretty much indicated as much. Why I'm wondering this specifically....it will make things more clear based on my mother and now my wife.....my mother stepped right into and my father was a perfect fit. It's just a hunch but I'm curious to hear you answer?
My wife tried to step into what she thought she wanted or needed and was looking for that fit too. What she got was me...and she was barking up the wrong tree. I really think this is what the conflict is all about most of the time. The actual underlying real reason even though she has not idea or can't see it yet?
She only knows co-dedendent (co-narcissism)...and it feels wrong for her to her and it goes against the grain and what she knows when I'm not being that dysfunctional piece for her and she doesn't realize what's she's missing....since you can't know that until you've had it before? Can't prove a negative even to yourself?
I'd really appreciate your thoughts on this?
You may not have realized it....but this is the effect that you end up like even if you weren't that way before? The only reason I'm asking you this specifically...is to see if you don't agree? These aren't the most flattering qualities....but at the same time....co-narcissism isn't the most flattering to your self esteem either.
And since you realize you've been that extension now and see it for what it is? I already know the answer to what would happen if you just said " hey....I'm busy and have made plans to do some fun things with friends and I don't need you any more for that. Serve yourself for a change....I've got other things to do?"....
And to the point....if knowing what will happen. Is this the only reason why you don't do it? Nothings worse than being that extension don't you know? Or do you know? How long has it been? I'm polling you too. If you would be so kind? I want to add my two bits here....but I want to see what everyone else says first?
What's missing for you to be happy and what would that look like? With or without him if you could have it only your way? I won't tell him if you don't. lol
J
A Second Thought For You Here OW
Submitted by kellyj on
I can't know any more than you've said before about your H and I'm not a trained psychologist by any means. All I have is experience. If what your H's psychologist(s) have said is true (about anything outside of ADHD) I realized rather stupidly on my part...that asking the question about being happy is not something you can answer exactly or even know at this point. As far as I can remember....not many who have come here have actually had that diagnosis from a professional in regards to their spouse who also has ADHD.
What I do know for sure? They are two different animals. I can say that with some certainty now whether you believe me or not. That's not really important anyway. What's important is you and I had to remember back far enough to remember where you are right now myself. What I haven't heard anything to the contrary...is that your H has responded or changed at all and is exactly how he's always been no matter what you or he has done? If I'm correct in saying this....I wanted to offer some things I've learned on your behalf. In essence....this is for you specifically since I really don't know where any of the other spouses are at this time as far as these things go. And as far as these things go....people are different there too and no two are exactly the same even though the effect this has on you. I see this....there are different effects from different disorders and challenges and each carry there own weight to the table. And IMHO....this is a heavy weight contender with a little added punch to the gut on top of it. How I can tell? The anger... and it won't ever stop unless you do something for yourself to remedy it. This really is my concern for you in this case. I understand being in so deep....there doesn't seem to be any light at the end of the tunnel? I think if you haven't done this yourself...is you need some help with this from a councilor and I don't remember if you said this already or not?
The one thing I do know for sure....is no matter how much you think he is happy or resent him for pursuing his own happiness. No amount of the things he's ever done to the contrary will ever make him happy and he is not happy regardless of what he appears to be. If you haven't picked up on this already....this was the main source of abuse, passive aggressiveness, signs or a tendency for ODD (not as a full blown disorder) but not to say it wasn't in there to a certain degree. What it didn't do was turn into something along the lines of your h which was the next step if it had gone that direction.
And why it didn't was the same reason I'm saying this to you. You will never get what you need from being with him if all of this is true. Not in your lifetime and maybe the next if that were possible. You have to get some kind of outlet or resource for yourself and get your needs met appropriately else where even if you stay with him as you are. And as you are as I recall myself....is really really angry even if you don't fully realize it since it's that insidious malignant kind that just eats away at you from the inside out. It really is like a cancer unless you find some cures for it.
But here's the deal there. The minute you do....this will all go away whether you're with him or not. This is not a life sentence to spend the rest of your life this way and there is a cure for you. That much I can guarantee unless you do nothing about this yourself.
As much as I have expressed my concerns and fears (and anger) about my wife in respect to the similarities I've hit up against. She responds... and has made changes and has and actually does listen even though she is not going to come to me and say it to me directly in so many words. As I see her...she is very much like I was in some regards but not others. I was going to save that for Dvance and Zapp and share some things with them too. I just wanted you to know that I realized what I was asking and didn't want you to feel like I was trying to get something out of you or from you or put you into that position.
I realized this when I remembered. The first thing that still crosses my mind at time that's still in there for me is always thinking..."why are you appearing so interested in me (or even nice or giving)....and what do you want from me?"....always, since that was always the reason for getting anything or showing interest. Interest in what they will get of course. Why else would they do that? This is not true of course with everyone...but it's easy to believe it after a while and especially when it happens every day.
This is also my wife's issue at times which is part of what I recognize as well. What I don't recognize and is different for her...is the way in which she responded which has more to do that it was her mother and not her father. I was lucky in that respect since it sounds worse if that part was different even for a boy as I have come to understand. Lessor of two evils as they say? For the most part despite her failings...my Mom was not half bad all things considered. (saying she was great in countless ways:)
J
What I have learned
Submitted by jennalemone on
See above. There was a time I thought parts of me had to "die" for me to be ok. I am just recently realizing what it is/was that has to "die". I have been acting and making decisions (or not making decisions that needed to be made) like a child. I cried, was angry, frustrated, felt rejected, yelled,.....just trying to cope with what I thought were insurmountable problems because of H.
The frustration came from thinking and feeling like a child....not conciously. I am reading "Games People Play" about transactional analysis. I was acting all the negative child roles from my childhood but not enjoying the childlike joy from my own childhood. I was thinking like my mother and father's words of admonishment, like the Girl Scout Promise, like the Sunday School lessons, like an elementary student, like a Good Housekeeping wife, beating myself up for not being perfect, trying to be better, cleaner, more hard working like my mother would have wanted because I wanted to be and was taught to be a good girl. But I did not give myself a parental soothing acceptance, appreciation, adult permission to do things by myself without asking permission of others.
I am learning to be adult more often, removing the emotions from decisions and not feeling like I am a victim or powerless anymore. I am learning to BE childlike when it comes to joy and appreciation and awe....the good things about being a child. I have enough parenting inside me to last a lifetime. The parent in me has ruled the roost for the later part of my life....parenting children, H and anyone else that needed me.
Time to be an adult and find some childlike happiness I am not a girl anymore. I am a woman. And in 2016, a woman does not have to think and act like a GIRL. I am practicing listening to my own judgment and intuition rather than looking for an expert or authority outside of myself to think and act like I was made as an adult. I don't have to stuff it and smile. I can stand strong.
Good For You Jenna
Submitted by kellyj on
Bases are loaded....time to step up to the plate and hit a Grand Slam. Knock em' dead. Shake a leg. You can do it!! You go girl:)
J
Love it, Jenna
Submitted by Zapp10 on
the part about stuffing it and smile. I like it....because it reminds me of "do the right thing". And the answer is.......yes, sometimes we should stuff it and smile and sometimes we should NOT stuff it and smile. Because do the right thing can mean....DON'T stuff it and smile......speak....calmly, clearly and FIRMLY.
Almond Joy Approach...Zapp and Jenna
Submitted by kellyj on
"Sometimes you feel like a "nut", and sometimes you don't." lol
Adding...knowing the difference is really important!
From a person who has ADHD....and can mostly tell for myself (mostly not always). The effect my ADHD has on my wife I can no longer discount. The "effect"...my ADHD has (not me necessarily) causes my wife to exhibit some rather uncomfortable behaviors for me to deal with....but it is in her nature already to be this wat anyway. I just bring them out in her more by my actions more than my personality. She was the first child in her (two children family ) and she was thrown into a place of having to be responsible for her little brother due to her mothers lack of responsibility. Tied with a limited amount of resources...and being the first born and having all the attention for at least a little while, she is very competitive when it comes to resources, attention, and resource guarding and "things" on the exterior (environmentally speaking ).
Bottom line for her from her abusive environment growing up. She's become hyper-responsible which is a form of OCD. I finally pieced that together and it fits like a glove. For her, this is her tendency anyway even though she's not like this at other times.
In essence....sometimes she's a nut. And sometimes she's not. lol Put simply.
I'm trying to take an integrated approach about this whole dilemma we find ourselves now, so I'm trying my best to stay as objective as possible..and this is really what I see between the two of us looking at both of our faults...and where we go wrong.
*** side note. I've learned not to use the words "wrong" or "right" when speaking to her because this just sets her off!! lol
Here's the problem as I see it taken from a list of better known symptoms as a result of her upbringing.
-closed system of communication:
"Everything that is in agreement with our personal desires seems true. Everything that is not puts us in a rage." People who are prone to anger have a set pattern of beliefs, attitudes, expectations and behaviors that insist on getting their own way. They have a strong case of the "shoulds" and "musts" for others. They believe that there is a certain way that others should act and become angry when their expectations are not met. They need to be seen as good, innocent and superior in their knowledge and how things should be done. They may use charm or anger and intimidation to get their way.
A system is two or more individuals who interact. A couple, a family, a neighborhood and our planet are all examples of systems. Systems can be put on a continuum from open to closed. In open systems, people talk and exchange ideas and feedback so the people stretch and grow. A closed system is one which keeps new information out to protect the status quo. Closed systems do not stretch because no new ideas are allowed in. The feedback loop continues the same way of thinking, precluding change and growth. The person who needs to be right all of the time is a closed system big time! He cannot allow his ideas to be challenged shuts down input from others. People in closed systems are rarely happy. Unfortunately, the need to be right is accompanied with a rigid stance and anger. Others distance from them and they cannot experience intimacy and connection. They cannot understand why their partner is so angry with them--their rationale is that the partner should just change! They do not want to be confused with facts when their mind is made up!"
Combine that with hyper-responsible:
Over-responsibility is ego-driven and a sure path to burn out.
When are you Being Over-Responsible?
You are being over-responsible when you:
– Take responsibility for the feelings and choices of others
– Judge the decisions, feelings, and thoughts of others
– Take credit (good or bad) for others
– Give unsolicited advice (verbally or non-verbally!)
– Compromise what you believe is healthy for you
– Blame others for your life’s choices, situations, or results
Now add in OCD (fear of being wrong and a need to be perfect)
Obsessions often seen with “perfectionism” as a form of OCD include:
An overwhelming fear of making mistakes; an intense need for things to be “perfect” or “done right” – may or may not be accompanied by a fear that harm will come to oneself or others if things are not done perfectly
Fear of the consequences of making mistakes (frequently overestimated)
A need for one’s behavior and performance to adhere to a particular rule or standard
Fear that one’s work will be seen as being poorly done, with possible punishment or job loss
Need to bring the same level effort, detail and energy to every task; all tasks are equally important
Need to have things look, sound or feel “just right”
An intense fear of making the wrong decision
A tremendous need to finish some action or project once it is started
Now add in external locus of control:
A person's "locus" (Latin for "place" or "location") is conceptualized as either internal (the person believes they can control their life)
or external (meaning they believe their decisions and life are controlled by environmental factors which they cannot influence, or by chance or fate).
and a fair amount of regression when we get into conflict: childish emotional reasoning and illogical behavior and petulant arguing. (side note: futile to argue with. Don't even try...just leave it alone!! )
And this is my wife. That is. This is my wife with me.
And I have some tendencies along these same lines but they're different than hers.
I'm:
-internal locus of control
-open system of communication
-OCD tendencies in some of these areas but....done with an internal locus of control and with the open communication style. This plays out differently...and yet with some similarities.
I don't have problems admitting I'm wrong. I have problems with people who won't admit they're wrong and can be pretty insistent (actually persistent or even stubborn ) in getting them to admit they are. Instead of always needing to right, and taking the position that I am wrong first....but they need to admit they're wrong and not let that go sometimes. This takes on the flavor of needing to be right...without the thinking behind it that says I am. In a general sense....I take a neutral position most of the time. But when in conflict and someone starts competing with me....that's when these things kick in.
Between the two of us. I'm the emotionally mature and responsible adult more often...and she's the logistically mature and responsible adult more often said as positive attributes which they are and are not a problem for either one of us.
Now reverse that and look at those same qualities negatively.
I'm more logistically immature when it comes to hold hold chores and logistical matters around the house.
And she's more emotionally immature going in the other direction.
But neither one of us are immature in reality. We just behave this way under stress and when we regress. We bring this out in each other by our very natures which are opposites of each other.
Part of my logistical immaturity is due to my ADHD liabilities and that right there is where the real conflicts arise because those really aren't due to immaturity....those are due to a quantifiable dysfunction in my hard wiring and my inability to keep track of things which makes me messy and cluttery along with remembering dates and times and just keeping track of everything. I firmly believe at this point in time...this would not be this way if it weren't for having ADHD.
Emotionally speaking and in most any other way...I'm pretty mature and responsible and if it weren't for my ADHD....these related things (only to my ADHD and not other things) would not be present since my awareness and desire is right in line with not wanting these to begin with. It's more to do with lessoned quantifiable ability...than it is with maturity which is more qualitative by nature.(a personal quality) Quantitative vs Qualitative. Big difference even if it might look the same.
But when we both regress at the same time due to stress....we're both playing out our childhood/childish tendencies and that when things really get into trouble fast.
Ironically.....I'm much more child like in my ability to play and have fun and make jokes (yes) and not take things seriously which is actually a more mature and more healthy way to be. I haven't lost my inner child ability to have fun....but I don't respond to things in a childish manner. In general...being fun loving and easy going about things is not actually being less mature but more in this case. The litmus test there is happiness.
And the converse is true for my wife. She may appear more mature and takes things more serious about the world on the outside....but this is just over compensating for the fact that she more emotionally immature, lacks a sense of humor, and is trying to be overly responsible as means to cover for her more immature interior.
Looks are deceiving in this case but if you take a look at these differences...you really start to see where our conflicts arise and come from. We both have our strengths and weakness and we both hit on each others buttons due to our differences in these ways.
And if you haven't gone here already....the key is to be more mature in all ways and be open to change. I have to take responsibility for my ADHD symptoms whether it's immaturity or a quantifiable disability and my wife needs to grow up emotionally and take care of her OCD. I've got my own OCD tendencies too and I never discount the fact that I can always stand some work in growing to be better in all ways as well.
No one is perfect...you know. The one thing that won't help is beating yourself (or the other person) up for when you aren't. That does nobody any good no matter which side your on?
J
Jenna....
Submitted by kellyj on
About that childish happiness? Obviously...I wasn't thinking it was about playing baseball when I made my hitting a Grand Slam comment.
Asking you the same thing. What do you want (really) to be happy with or without your hubby? Are you dependent on him to do things with you to be happy or can you be happy doing things alone without him? Not all the time of course....but if it were different and you got your needs met with him....what are you not doing that you want to do or can't do otherwise?
Thinking....if you weren't so busy serving others (your kids and your H ) what would you do? Hint; Purpose...versus having fun and enjoying yourself. Purpose fills your needs to be of value. Fun fills your need just to have fun and enjoy yourself?
What's missing here? Purpose or fun...or both? Polling you too. Thanks
J
What do you want?
Submitted by jennalemone on
I have lately been reading old posts. Here is one I must have missed but it is timely for me now. J asked us. "What do you want?" As purpose...."If you weren't so busy serving others (your kids and your H) what would you do?" In my head, all I come up with are excuses for not knowing this answer for myself. But I really want to address this now.
I want.... hmmmm.... to wake in the morning and like myself. I want to like my surroundings. I want to like the people in my life. I want beloved and loving and communicative people in my life.
My purpose in life? To make things beautiful. To make events beautiful. To make art and celebrate beauty in nature and movement and community.
Thanks for the question, J. I will ponder on this today. And remind myself of my answer here and see if it sticks or if as the day goes along if I can more clearly or differently pinpoint "what I want"/ "what is my purpose".
I will ask you (whoever reads this) What do you want? What is your purpose?
Simple Wisdom
Submitted by vabeachgal on
My daughter shared a simple but important piece of wisdom.
Three things.
She said you need 3 things to be happy: To enjoy what you do. To enjoy who you are with. To enjoy where you live.