I truly do not understand what goes on in a person's mind, who refuses to be responsible, and do the work of a Wife or Husband....How can a person be raised by two working parents, finish high school and college, get a job and support themselves...Then take marriage vows, enter a marriage, and start living like life is just one big party...And they are the guest of honor, with no responsibilities??....It's not that these people weren't taught to work, and how to share....I guess it's possible to just justify using another person up for your own selfish agenda, without a thought??
What really baffles me about this type of a mind is, they seem to show genuine effort to be responsible (do the work) when it comes to the majority of people outside the home, and even children inside....It's just their spouse in most cases they refuse to come along side of in a responsible manner...It's not like they don't have friends, and family who are in healthy marital relationships, who daily do the work, and are being good examples for them to see....They see it acted out in life every day....They just refuse to discipline themselves to the role of a responsible husband or wife...And then justify it....They have to justify it, in order to live with themselves....This dynamic (mindset/ life style) is what causes so much pain, and broken homes...They just don't care about anything or anybody, (enough to own it, and work to change) as long as they put themselves in the easiest role possible in daily life....I hope I never really understand this (learn to think this way) type mind....
I may never know why a educated intelligent adult would live so intrusive and abusive to their spouse....But, I know why?...Because it's allowed!
c
C mindset
Submitted by jennalemone on
I am in a similar train of thought today. I am dumbfounded also about this same entitled mindset. Lucky them - with no guilt or shame...just coasting. Why do people try to "get away" with things rather than partner with their partner? Because they believe they can "get away with it". And there lies my disrespect for my husband. And there lies my response to his actions. And H wants me to respect him but does so many disrespectful things and he doesn't want to hear it if I bring it to light.
It seems to me that H would be better suited with someone who is sassy, and fiesty, quick to curse and fight like in "Whose Afraid of Virginia Wolf". But I think all that energy hashing around with your partner would be just so stupid. I would be better suited with someone who wants to go hand and hand climbing and learning and adventuring making the outside world the thing to conquer....not trying to conquer each other in a thousand small silly ways.
Yes, H justifies everything in his head too and takes the easiest way out, spinning his wheels of diversions by himself.
It must be the weather today. Lots of people I talked to today are in the same discouraged, disturbed mood. It is part of life to accept and know that tomorrow is another day.
Jenna,
Submitted by dedelight4 on
This is a very poingnant thread. Same feelings here today too, and wondering about these same issues with H. Jenna, my DH was always attracted to the sassy, fiesty, smart mouthed little, short (italian) girls, since he was Italian, but was always dumped and dumped ON by them. In fact, his family and friends told me that I was the first actual "nice, and level headed girl" they had ever seen him with. At the time, I took that as a compliment, when I should have seen it as a red flag. Most of our marriage, he carried a "flame" for his first girlfriend (fiesty, smart mouth) because she was the first girl he was "in love" with, but also first sex partner. But, he never got over that, and he never seemed to fall that strongly "in love" for me, which he didnt admit till much later.
For so long, I felt so stupid for loving someone who wasnt putting any of those same type of emotions and feelings into OUR marriage, which he absolutely should have been doing. And why he wouldnt be honest enough to just tell me the truth, is still beyond me. Even, 3 years ago when I left him for a year, (when he said he was still in love with his old girlfriend) I stayed calm and just left. I told him about honesty, and how much I needed honesty, no matter how "bad" he thought it would be. Here he was being cruel in one way, but couldnt be honest because THAT would be "too cruel". THAT is some messed up thinking. I told him I respected honesty more than anything else, and to please tell me the truth no matter how bad. But, he still had to hang on to his secrets and parcel out the truth in segments. (Not a good strategy) He did find out that all the fantasies he had about his ex, were just THAT, a bunch of fantasies. They did get together after I left, but H found out it wasnt anything like his imgination made it out to be. Reality set in, and he didnt feel like he thought he would. They were just kids then, and life was very different, and so was he, but he had to find that out for himself. But, so many years were wasted with his mind being somewhere else, and not being dedicated and focused on the one who he took vows with. It taught me not to trust men in general, but most of all, not to trust myself.
I am somewhat in a stuck place right now, not knowing exactly how to trust again. Or how to love "openly" any more, feeling unlovely, uncared for, and unworthy of receiving love.I know this is messed up, but its where I am.
I moved back because of several reasons, mainly economical, and because the daughter I was living with moved to a different state, and all my doctors and medical treatments are here. Plus, I had to straighten out the house, paperwork and financial stuff. But, the past year my health has declined rapidly, and I need assistance for many things.
Unsure, yes. I know H is sorry, I know he wants to do better, but he still doesnt face his ADHD. And, he doesnt want to talk about "the past", wanted to move on, and just try to start over without resolving any of the past issues. Its not that easy to do, to try to resolve things without working through any of it. Maybe I'm wrong, just struggling today too.
Same here...dede....
Submitted by c ur self on
( Unsure, yes. I know H is sorry, I know he wants to do better, but he still doesnt face his ADHD. And, he doesnt want to talk about "the past", wanted to move on, and just try to start over without resolving any of the past issues. Its not that easy to do, to try to resolve things without working through any of it. Maybe I'm wrong, just struggling today too.)
You can't put the past behind when there is no closure....When there is no repentance....When you are still carrying the damage around in your head and heart....When my Wife does something or says something she regrets....She will immediately want me to never mention it, like it never happened....I told her, to not SEE it, (Why am I thinking so selfishly?) and Confront it (Why is this feeling in me?)...Is a sure fire why to guarantee repeating it...Denial is these incidents is carnal hopelessness....Or worse, they find comfort in viewing themselves as a victim...Instead of remorse....
c
I don’t have any additional
Submitted by Hopeful Heart on
I don’t have any additional insights. You’ve both said it so well. I just wanted to add that I’m really struggling today, too. I’m in a really dark place. Hope it passes soon for all of us.
I am right there with you in
Submitted by Libby on
I am right there with you in that dark place. So weary.
likewise - weird day
Submitted by husband33 on
after 2 days of my ADHD wife being in bed with "cramps" self-vomiting...meanwhile I can't work, i do 3 kids <9yrs whole household....this morning 3am she wakes all 4 of us, wanting to go to ER, i carry her....3am..crack heads and us in ER with 3 kids in PJs...3hrs later Doctors say nothing is wrong with her...again, this has happened before.......i pull all kids out of school, make her a special peppermint tea from the leaves growing out back, then i massage her. Then I drop kids off at school after lunch, I shop get her perscription , pickup youngest, I come back and she says it is all my fault because I stress her out and that is why she has cramps according to an article about psychosomatic stomach issues and also I have "no empathy".
WTF?
C, good question
Submitted by dedelight4 on
Your question and statement at the end made me think. These folks are smart, educated ,and intelligent, and they can be very helpful and patient with people other than their spouses. So what do you think changes when they have to relate to a spouse. The change in their behavior happens quickly right after the wedding for so many. And, then explain a little more about it being "allowed", if you dont mind.
Do you think their parents allowed them to do behaviors that should have been addressed, but weren't? I know we spouses begin to address the behaviors,and thats when the ADHD person really begins to freak out.
Just asking
In my case yes poor parenting
Submitted by Libby on
In my case yes poor parenting played a role in my DH's behaviour issues. My MIL was only sixteen when she had my husband. I think her immaturity did not help with parenting at all. And I believe she herself has ADD also. As I have said in another thread she thinks the sun shines out his butt. Very defensive of all of her son's if their behaviours are questioned.
After the wedding you are part of the Enable team
Submitted by Will It Get Better on
I believe you become perceived as part of the ability to navigate ADHD symptoms and achieve the immediate MeNow goals the ADHDer conceives. Do you ever have your ADHDer commit you, your time and/or your resources to one of their fleeting projects and NEVER TELL YOU BEFOREHAND? 'Oh I made an appointment tomorrow for you to do X...' when you have never heard (never mind consented to) 'X'? 'That was the only way I could get it done because I'm already committed to something else...' You are a means of achieving what they want while your exasperation at being 'committed' without being consulted is just a source of anger for the ADHDer that 'you refuse to help out.' I get stuck changing my plans or refusing the commitment and then facing catastrophic RSD rages.
I face that all the time.
Submitted by Libby on
I face that all the time. Pretty much daily. It is bullying in my opinion.
almost everyday committed with no headsup
Submitted by husband33 on
almost everyday i am committed without being asked...
she hates on me or tantrums when i tell her i did not agree nor was i consulted originally therefore i am not doing it for her.
for example -now she is the baseball coach on Tuesdays - and she makes it impossible for me, leaves the 5yr kid at home alone to go coach, says it is my fault i have to race home , also kids don't get dinner since she has to coach.
but i was never consulted before she signed up to coach...i barely know the rules of little league baseball, my least favorite sport and she knows that...
another example occuring 3x a week is is her not getting out of bed i the morning in time and locking herself in bathroom/showering starting at 8:30, when kids have to leave for school 8:35 so basically i am signed up to get kids to school without being asked (she is stay at home)
Enable team
Submitted by dedelight4 on
Yes, I've had this happen also. It can take your patience with them to it's very end at times. It also means all focus of the marriage becomes about them instead of wanting the best for the other person in the marriage. Thats why sites like this, telling the spouses to work on themselves instead of the ADHD person is really crucial.
My MIL (diagnosed bipolar late in life), pampered H a lot, her favorite child, but she had zero parenting skills. Not an affectionate person, and a hair trigger temper with depression.
Being allowed....
Submitted by c ur self on
When we (co-workers, close friends, parents, brothers, sisters, children, and spouses) endure negative behaviors we in effect are saying it's OK.....The worst enablers are usually parents and siblings, then comes those who don't have to endure you but for short times...Co-workers and friends....Children usually love a parent so deeply, and because of an immature mind, they don't even realize the dysfunction until they get older...(sadly many will follow in their foot steps, due to being molded by the behaviors)...Spouse's usually are the very worst enablers of the group....But usually the spouse is the first to holler Whoa!...They can't up and leave like siblings, and other friends and family when things turn uncomfortable....
My comment was just saying that when there is no accountability, or price to pay in the moment, then they are "Being Allowed" to live intrusively on others....
c
unawares.
Submitted by husband33 on
sorry i dropped an irrelevant remark into this thread last night.
the lack of respect and effort and awareness in my opinion is coming from a place of contempt and lack of love.
even though Orlov is saying ADHD symptoms can explain the missing spouse behaviors and missing adult partnership connections, her recent blog posts and course relies on a fundamental assumption: the ADHD spouse is cooperative, self aware and willing to do the work, next to their spouse.
without a willingness to work on being a better spouse, it makes the one who is willing to work feel worthless and abandoned.
i get given the finger, figuratively, in terms of lack of action, whenever i ask to work on Orlov courses. like more than 10 times she is too busy for it.
i get given the finger, figuratively, when I ask for a "real" kiss on father's day and get none.
i think it is possible an ADHDer can actually not like their spouse, not have wiring and chemistry for genuine love and effort for their partner.
sorry but maybe some of us are holding on (blaming ADHD) when they just don't like is and there is nothing we can do to change that.
Husband33, no need to apologize
Submitted by dedelight4 on
Hey, it's okay. We're okay here. This is our safe place to vent (reasonably:)) when we need to, since we dont have family members that understand what we are living with.
I've wondered at times too, whether or not about the capacity for genuine love. This still puzzles me, because some people with ADHD do love, and DEEPLY, but then there are the ones who just dont seem to have that IN them. Not sure what that is, but would like to know more about it. And, then at times I just get sick of the whole ADHD thing, and am tired of it all. And, on to a other day.
Chiming in on this thread about....
Submitted by Zapp10 on
" I've wondered at times too, whether or not about the capacity for genuine love. This still puzzles me, because some people with ADHD do love, and DEEPLY, but then there are the ones who just don't seem to have that IN them."
This is where I came to realize that this was not ALL adhd related. Yes, some of it may be based on unknown ADHD in childhood where the "unknown" was not able to be addressed in BENEFICIAL ways. Then....using my H as my test case.......take ADHD OUT of the equation.....what was his childhood like? I have been in his family for 45 years. I have my own exp, an observing exp of other siblings and my H's response to "life" in all sorts of areas. What I realized was a very sad lack of EMOTION in the entire unit except the last younger 2 out of 7 children. This is more about not what was done to them....as wasn't done.
I have spent my separated time from H.....first...to HEAL myself. Second...to heal myself where H is concerned. I found myself feeling "guilty" because I KNEW a mothers love. She smiled at me, she laughed with me, she TOUCHED me, she INCLUDED me in her life in small ways....regularly. She HAD to work to support my sister and I so she was NOT a stay at home mom. She did not spank, hit or yell.( the "look" was enough). She was involved in my daughters lives.....and loved on them. My H has emotions.....he doesn't seem to know what they are. Most of the emotions he expresses are anger( never rage) and frustration. Rarely is there laughter, tender teasing, a gentle touch, sincere affection. He is VERY uncomfortable around this kind of behavior. He is a master at sarcasm, stoicism and bravado.
My take away from sorting this out and arranging it into a more "coherent" picture rather then "chaotic" is .......While I have not posted here, in depth, on H's childhood I am very confident that he has been dealt a grave injustice due to BOTH his parents inability to GIVE what they did not have to give. It CHANGES the psychological make of a child. They do not know WHAT they do not know and that requires compassion. He DOES NOT SEE HIS BEHAVIOR where it is NOT MATURE.
My H has UNADDRESSED ADHD. He is "emotionally stunted". He has qualities to the moon and back. Daily living in a mutual reciprocal relationship.....not going to happen. When I talk to him about this, at his behest, it is the same thing every time......a sad, blank look....and then the petulant anger of a child. Again.....compassion. I am NOT going to PRETEND we are a loving, committed, enduring couple. It hasn't been that way behind closed doors.......so who would I be pleasing/lying to to stay?
What I am trying to say is my H cannot give what was not given him.........then add adhd to that . He received no love(of any substance) or direction. Children cannot grow themselves up.
If anyone needs me to clarify anything....please don't hesitate to speak up and ask. My H says I am confusing sometimes......he is not always wrong.Lol.
When ADHDer sees you as dropping off the Enable Team
Submitted by Will It Get Better on
I have received the statement from my ADHDer wife that the Orlov course's demand were 'too overwhelming' so she did very little. The biggest problem as you state above is that the person directing the ADHD treatment has ADHD so every initiative withers after a couple of days. My wife equates intending to begin a behavioral modification with ACTUALLY completing a behavioral modification. So 'I am working on that symptom' becomes six months of rarely REALLY doing the required exercise (e.g. turn off all video/phone by 9 PM, read in bed for an hour and then go to sleep) but expecting recognition and praise for doing it 10 days out of 180. It seems consistency is one of the 'executive functions' that are seriously compromised so how can she make progress (which is defined by consistency) on any of the symptoms? Non-ADHDers are counseled to 'step away' to allow the ADHDer to directly experience the repercussions of the ADHD-inspired decisions but to where does the non-ADHDer retreat while attempting to keep life 'normal' for the rest of the family.
Now that there is a diagnosis of ADHD we have a education track and variety of medication and behavioral approaches. What do you do when the ADHDer does no more 'education' than taking an evaluation and grudgingly ('Stop trying to FIX me!') taking meds? Barkley says that until the ADHDer 'owns' the treatment there will be no real progress. That is my experience so far.
Just reading everyone's replies....
Submitted by c ur self on
Some of you speak of intrusive behavior, and ask how do I avoid the fallout, when it so directly effects me and the children? Some of you are living apart or some what apart in order to heal from the effects, and to attempt to have peaceful days....But as long as we try to coexist in an unstable emotional environment, there will be days (lots of them) where the behaviors will over power us on an emotional and psychological level...Which will also break us down physically over time...(IMO) this is where we should place our concern and effort.... And where we should place boundaries....Not on the facts of what is being produced by their way of thinking, feeling and behaving....Everyone of us who have been married for any length of time could tell story after story, we can list the dysfunctional and selfish acts about daily living...On and On...And lets face it...On a site like this, it can be therapy at times to just let it out....But what does it really change? Nothing!
But, if we step back, and truly look at it like the fly on the wall..(Big Picture Here)...The picture that would be on the theater screen if every moment w/ them was recorded....We will see that we must stop picking up the snake that continues to bite us....So when we accept that engaging a person who is GOING to live there way, no matter how much it negatively impacts their spouse, and children....And deal with our self from this premise, then we can gain ground....
The best way to tell if you are setting appropriate boundaries is....You probably want like them, just from a self discipline aspect...But, you will see the forced accountability eventually start changing them in some area's....And usually, your spouse will hate them! Especially if you have been co-dependent and mothering....The trick here is to keep the goal in mind (a more sain relationship where two does the work)....
This reality in my own marriage has driven me to try many things over the past several years....Most of which I have shared freely on this site....Just because something works to a degree, doesn't mean we can or will master it right away....Every thing that builds up (instead of tear down) in our relationships, takes work...It also takes humility, courage, determination, and most of all it takes patients....
The day I "Lock on the problem", is the day I quit on the solution....
(IMO) It's OK, to get away from abusive and highly intrusive situations....It's just about impossible to find healing, while living daily in the dysfunction...(See Zapp10's posts)...We just have to beware that we don't fall to the tendency to make ourselves out to be some kind of a victim, if we chose to stay....When we do that, we just become another huge part of the problem....
c