I'd like to hear some of the other people on here if you've had this expression said to you by your ADHD partner. My ADHD husband has said this many times. He gets angry at our grown daughters and me (and others) because he continually says "(I don't feel like I'm included in the family). He means this when we get together and can talk for several hours about many different things. We laugh, and cry and generally have a great time. But, we CAN'T do this when he is present, due to the fact that he mainly doesn't listen to us. He really doesn't understand how MUCH he doesn't listen to the conversations, and how little he interjects into a conversation. I don't think he even KNOWS how to HAVE a conversation unless he's talking about himself.
We can't sit and ONLY talk about him when we are in his presence, but that is what he does. He also will say very hurtful jabs or comments when he DOES try to comment, and then the conversation has to be changed or disarmed in some way. When I've tried to talk to him (at all different times) he almost immediately says, "Is this going to TAKE very long?" (in a hurried, frustrated tone of voice) It doesn't matter what the conversation is ABOUT. He wants me to say "whatever" in a 30 second soundbyte, and it's HARD to do that most of the time. So, I learned to stop talking to him altogether unless HE says something to me first, and then I respond with a very short comment, which usually has to be positive, because anything negative is taken as hostile. We talk very little now, even less than before due to our circumstances, but now only talk about him, ask HIM questions about himself, and he's okay with that, but he STILL can't see that this is NOT meaningful conversation. (but he can FEEL that this is meaningless conversation) He has alienated almost EVERYONE in our family, his friends and everyone else due to this.
At the same time, he HATES that he isn't "included" in our raucous laughing and talking sessions when we are laughing about things he would consider "dumb" or "not necessary" to talk about. Do you guys deal with this? and do ADHD people EVER learn to have back and forth conversations with others in a constructive way, WITHOUT making the conversation about THEM? I know some ADHD'ers must have to learn to do this, but it doesn't seem like there are many who can.
Does anyone know what brings this on? Is this a learned behavior, or is this again, part of their brain wiring? I have not yet been able to get him to see any different than what he believes, and I gave up trying, but it doesn't keep him from being angry about it. If he doesn't want to see it, or know any different, it's not going to change..........ever. I feel bad for him about this. He's missing SO MUCH, and he FEELS that, but still won't investigate what is behind it all.
I think there is several
Submitted by c ur self on
I think there is several things that work against a fast mind in the situation you've stated...distractibility, (poor listening skills) inability to follow and comprehend. (which can cause agitation). Also boredom and time management....When my wife is talking the work stops for her:)
What happened today here is typical example....Wife gets up to get ready for work; see me and say's...I've got to tell you two things and I can't talk any more ...So she tells me two things...15 seconds or so goes by and she thinks of something else to say, so she say's it, but reiterates she can't talk anymore (my warning not to say anything)....She gets ready and calls out from the kitchen if I will help her get to the car with all her bags...I go help her, and tell her bye....This a typical exchange, she will most of the time get up rushing around consumed by her living of life...Does not seem to have one sane moment where a thought goes through her head...Hey? Self? Your husband might would like to say something! Ha Ha.....Oh it's just the way it is....But, it only happens when she is in a hurry or distracted...Which is most all the time....
God is good!
C
"I don't think he even knows
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
"I don't think he even knows how to have a conversation unless he's talking about himself"
So true. My H has the same complaint that you do. Today, we took our older son out to lunch on his day off. While son was telling us about a recent corporate adventure he had experienced, I was hanging on every word and making appropriate comments. H appeared bored during most of the conversation....until HE had something to say.
Whirlwind of chaos, mentally and emotionally
Submitted by dedelight4 on
Thank you both for answering this original post. It's always reassuring to hear others life events involved with this. I really DO feel so terribly bad for my husband, because of his avoidant personality and ADHD. But, I cannot in any way fix it, or even help it, because of being "shut out" for too long, and now it's over. I do want to say how exhausting it is, and has been for myself and those around him who don't have his issues. He truly doesn't understand his own disorders. (plural)
I wrote him a long and loving letter, trying hard to word it without being judgmental or emotional, and used as many feeling words as I could. (again, without it being too touchy-feely) In this, I did have to tell him that it was difficult being around him due to the chaos that surrounds him all the time. The up and down moods, and the anger that comes outward from him is hard to emotionally continue to "be around" on a daily basis, with no resolve in sight.
It's like he sucks the 'life force" out of me when I'm in his presence. (if that makes any kind of sense) And, the whirlwind of chaos that surrounds him is another emotionally draining event. It's like he's a pinball in a pinball machine, pinging around from one place to another in the house, with no direction in mind, just ping, ping, ding, ding, ding, bang, bang, bang, until the ball falls out of play and he drops asleep in exhaustion.
I did some research on RAD, and avoidant personality disorders, of which I absolutely KNOW is going on within him. His mother was a very emotionally "distant" and cold mother, who didn't give her 3 children ANY physical contact other than what was the most basic of needs. I watched her behave this way with her grandchildren, who she continually said she "loved with all her heart". But, she never hugged them, or kissed them, (even as babies). She would only hold them for a few seconds before anxiously needing to "get rid of them" and give them back to their mother as soon as possible. So, I KNOW she did this with her own children. She had a hair trigger temper, and could go from zero to blazing anger in a split second, which didn't seem normal to me. She passed from Alzhiemer's a few years ago, and her doctor told us that he also believed she was bi-polar.
So, my husband didn't get his emotional needs met as a baby/child, and he grew up to not only have ADHD, but also what seems to be an "attachment disorder", since it's played out almost to perfection in the things I've read. ( Every single symptom and action he displays is in the RAD descriptions) These combination disorders are devastating to others around them, and it HAS BEEN with us.
Now, I've had an emotional break from him, which is freeing in it's own right, but I have SO MUCH damage control in my own person. I'm moving some of my thing to my daughter and son-in-law's apartment. I already have a bed and a small area that they've graciously let me have. It's just so sad after 35 years together and almost 33 years of marriage. (what a way to end)
We have a similar issue--when
Submitted by dvance on
We have a similar issue--when it's just me and my two boys, we can talk and laugh and it feels easy and relaxed. When DH is around it is much much quieter. He has a bit of hearing loss but won't acknowledge it or do anything about it--add the lack of attention to that and he doesn't catch very much of what is going on around him. If there is background noise, like in a restaurant, forget it--he will often tell me/us when we walk in somewhere that he is not going to hear anything we say to him. Well thanks, then--we won't even try to include you. We have been to many restaurants or out with other couples or at someone's house and DH does not speak a word. I am so tired of it. It's so odd, but he thinks nothing of it. I don't know if it's rudeness, lack of interest in anyone but himself, inability to maintain his attention long enough to participate in a conversation, the hearing thing-what? I don't know. He also interrupts a ton and then the thread of whatever we were discussing is lost. I cannot tell you how many conversations I have had with him that just fade away--either he interrupts or gets up and walks away. I figure he just won't know whatever it is--oh well. I do not count on him for any substantial feedback anyway, so I no longer care if he hears me or not. At this point I have trained myself to not need anything from him so it does not matter to me if he is included or feels included. I cannot make him participate in a normal way.
Dvance Some Things in Common With Your H
Submitted by kellyj on
Hey...this is really interesting. I'm trying hard to not launch in as I do so please bear with me. I have a mild hearing loss as well. I also found that there have been studies that have found a relationship to this and ADHD just going by the numbers. What you said here in wondering about this and why he does what he does?
When DH is around it is much much quieter. He has a bit of hearing loss (but won't acknowledge it or do anything about it ).............. It's so odd, but he thinks nothing of it. I don't know if it's rudeness, lack of interest in anyone but himself, inability to maintain his attention long enough to participate in a conversation, the hearing thing-what? I don't know. If there is background noise, like in a restaurant, forget it--he will often tell me/us when we walk in somewhere that he is not going to hear anything we say to him. Well thanks, then--we won't even try to include you. We have been to many restaurants or out with other couples or at someone's house and DH does not speak a word. I am so tired of it.
In respect to you....I might get tired of this too. In fact.....for myself here....I can tell you what I finally got tired of myself that is related to this....not being able to join in on conversations well because I miss one or two important words in a sentence in the conversation and can't follow more than 3 people talking at one time (including myself). What I don't have is the inability to filter out background noise so it doesn't matter where I am when this happens. A lot of my inability to do this has to do with actually hearing more than ADHD but there's more too it than that. Growing up....the effort it takes to stay focused enough to listen and partake was more than I could handle.
You learn to just blend in and not say much and hope no one calls on you to say anything but you want to be there. What happens is you just try and follow and listen the best you can which makes it more like watching a TV show and not partaking in conversations by default. What you just described sounds like the very same thing I use to do....to a T. Before I knew I had ADHD....it seemed pretty obvious that my hearing was the problem for me and why I did this if that helps narrow this down for you. It's hard enough to follow one person and listen so you can respond intelligently. With 3 or more people in the room at the same time and everyone is talking.....I use to lose track of the entire "thread" of the conversation and hoped no one would require me to join in. In respect to your back ground....it really was like sitting in class knowing you didn't have the answer and hoping the teacher wouldn't call on you. This is exactly what it feels like.
As I said....I got really tired of everything I was missing so I figured a few things out that really helped me. First....positioning myself directly in front a person when they speak to me. If they are walking away from me or in the other room ( or across any distance) forget about it I ask people to hold that thought until I can align myself properly. The closer I am...the better I can hear all the words.
Second....growing up with a hearing loss puts more emphasis on visual an tactile learning and listening. Drawing from other sources to assist with the diminished hearing. So in terms of this....I have made some discoveries.
If you touch my arm or touch me while you are talking to you....this helps activate (something?) so I can hear better. I don't know why but that's just how it works?
If I snap my fingers really close to my ears....or put headphones on with really abrasively load (heavy metal music or the like)...it does the same thing. Again...it activates my hearing in a way that temporarily helps me hear. Once I do this for a moment or two...it shocks my hearing system (or something?) and I can hear much better after that.
My problem if it is like your H...has to do with volume. I have been tested many times about my hearing and the results are consistently the same since I was a little kid. The results all say I don't need a hearing aid but the last time that I went in thinking I would get one....the tester came up with saying the same thing. I said...."wait a minute. I've been hearing that all my life but I can tell you.....I can't hear everything people say to me unless I do all these things to get there. What up?" So the woman tester gave me a couple hearing aids to try and walk around the store (Costco). When I did this it was remarkably better. What was interesting however...is that both my ears tested about the same but when I pulled one aid out of one ear and not have one in the other....it made no difference than with two? Like....what the hell? Now I'm really confused?
What she said was that there are some instances with hearing that have more to do with volume and I tested lower in my threshold on some frequencies and not others and that could be why I miss words. Some people I can hear just fine even at low volumes. But some people who have either really high soft voices...or really low soft voices....I can barely understand them to the point....I can't make out what they are saying since I miss a good portion of it. This again...is really embarassing especially if the person next to them I can hear just fine. If someone is soft spoken and you keep asking them to speak up....it's not only embarrassing for me but really annoying for them. And I never know who that is until they are standing in front of me and I can understand them well. It has to do with how the sound projects. Some people project and others don't and droll off at the end of the sentence. It's all has to do with volume and frequency and I have to do things to compensate like I said to make sure I hear everything they say. Same with TV. Any sound that comes through compressed small speakers that don't project well I have the same problem so I have to turn up the sound on TV just to hear the words being spoken yet....at the same volume with someone in the room talking....I can hear them just fine???? This is even annoying to me since....the TV does sound loud and even to me...but to hear the words...it has to be higher than I like it myself? Weird? I'll say. And most annoying on top of it.
The part about following 3 or more people in the room has less to do with hearing though.....that has to do with having to focus really intently and keep that up for prolonged periods of time. When I sit in a restaurant for too long in a group of people...it wears me out really quickly and I have to get up and walk around so I can come back and continue. If I can't do this and I am stuck in one place like this for too long....I find myself checking out like I did when I was younger due to the effort that is involved. All of this is saying....there are things he can do but it take some effort to get there.
I wish I could tell him what he is missing because once I followed through with a just a few things like this....it really helped and made being in situations like this much more enjoyable for everyone. The only thing I can't do anything about are really soft spoken people. If that's the case....it becomes a no win situation without a hearing aid and not much else I can do. If any of this helps give you some clues to see if any of these will help....it might be worth giving it a try?
J
Not Feeling Included...
Submitted by NonADHD on
Hi Dede,
I'm new to hear and ADHD, my wife of 2 years is ADHD and takes medication. We have been in silent mode for 2 months, I don' understand it. The only thing that I can say is to develop thick skin and regulate your emotions. I think over the years since childhood, my wife and other ADHD'rs have been argumentative and defensive and this is the state of mind they are comfortable in. I have learned in these 2 months to maintain a distance as well, only to protect my self since this is what she has caused, though it's all my fault I'm sure. Since they can be in a very defensive state, then do nothing but be normal is the only way to live. Tolerance is the key, not realism. I say that because my wife has done "over kill" to this situation and I have never been through this kind of behavior with anyone. It's like Chinese Torture...drip, drip, drip.....I recommend to pray, seek the Lord's help, as I am. With your children, just kill him w/ kindness. Maybe he knows how he can control through manipulation, so, refuse to be manipulated. Good luck !!
aimhigh...Your post gave me some thoughts.....
Submitted by c ur self on
Been in your shoes about 8 years....
Things I would do, and am doing presently that have been painful lessons.....1) Never put so much faith in myself to think I could use verbal communication to speak Normal to a mind, that 100 % thinks her normal is fine...
2) Cast every expectation I even half way thought I would like to place on her into the silent abyss, and ACCEPT what is right in front of me, and silently adapt my life to live peacefully with her (understand manner) if we never talked or left the house together...Just as long as we both had peace...
3) Try my best to limit pointing out things, making suggestions...Live by example and let her ask me questions if she want my advice....And walk away at the first sign of negative emotion or interruption...
4) Understand this truth and never blame........You can never have an argument with one person, and if an argument is happening there will always be two or more guilty parties....
5) Never allow myself to be Co-Dependent....(Remind myself regularly that she is my wife and not my child, so never treat her like one, even if she is acting like one)
6) Always remember Silence is Golden...
7) Never try to speak into a closed mind, never try to have a conversation when she has a combative & defensive posture....
8) Never be surprised by anything....
9) Never forget, my emotions are mine to manage....
10) Set boundaries concerning the things that are not going to change....And preferable with a wise third party present (not related) for accountability.....
11) Pray and trust, live soberly and self-aware....
Blessings aimhigh.....
C
Thanks for sharing
Submitted by adhd mama on
Hi J,
Thanks for sharing about your hearing. Interesting to hear there is an ADHD and Hearing Loss/Problem link! I have a bunch of allergies so always figured it was just congestion on the days I could hear well, or they where soft spoken as you pointed out. I hate making phone calls because I never know if I am going to be able to understand the person I called or if I will have to ask "what/ I didn't catch that/ can you repeat that last part".... my horrible record is 9 "what did you say?" in a row. I have my husband call and schedule and take care of any business by phone when I can. We know I am capable of making requests, negotiating bills/contractors, being polite... I'm just scared of all the "what did you says?"!
I have studied a lot about the human senses and their systems, you might look up Auditory Sensory Processing and see if there is any helpful suggestions. I know that the Vestibular system uses the same nerve connection in the brain as the Auditory and they affect one another (Vestibular system is how our body stayed balanced and feels gravity.)
Thanks for the insight, with the ADHD connection, maybe I'll start using my phone more.
dvance....A few thoughts....
Submitted by c ur self on
This Is True C
Submitted by kellyj on
What messes me up is more than anything is the more than 3 people at a time. Four is starting to get busy...and more than that starts sounding like improvisational Jazz...you know 5 people playing a different song all at the same time. That one.
This improved for me dramatically when I addressed the hearing loss issue....almost immediately. I don't understand the connection or why but it changed so drastically but it seemed almost over night? It seemed the increased volume tends to allow more in and speeds up the processing time and I have no idea why?
J
My husband also has hearing loss
Submitted by dedelight4 on
Thanks dvance for your reply, and also to the others. My ADHD husband also has a severe hearing loss, which bothers him a LOT. Your husband has hearing loss, and J has said something about a hearing loss. Is this PART of ADHD, or something that doctors have overlooked? I haven't read anything about that yet. It DOES distract my husband quite a bit, but not as much as the ADHD symptoms and the co-morbid things. This is incredibly interesting, and I"d like to know more if anyone has read about this.
frustrating part of ADHD
Submitted by MFrances on
Conversation Skills
Submitted by Delphine on
I'm hearing impaired and have been told I'm a great listener. Probably, precisely because communication has been a challenge due to the hearing, it's even more important to me. I lost my hearing age seven. I now have a cochlear implant, which helps a lot, although it doesn't make me a hearing person, and I still do better one-on-one than in groups of people.
My son has ADHD and he does know how to converse. With me, he tends to be either very closed-mouth or very talkative, but I never feel communication is a one-way street unless he's in a state, and I am learning to detach at those times.
I have to wonder, panda123, how did you get in the relationship in the first place if your communication with your husband is so poor?
What about Auditory SPD?
Submitted by adhd mama on
My daughters co-morbidity is Sensory Processing Disorder.... needed extra stimulation, or being overwhelmed with normal stimulation of the senses. Hearing would be with the Auditory system, linked to the Vestibular system. J's talk of needed extra stimulation in the volume, but passing hearing tests fine really makes me wonder. As well the comment of too much background and tracking too many people in the conversation. As my husband and I read and study we find that everyone has a different nervous/sense system. I wonder if something like that is going on with your partner?
What about Auditory SPD?
Submitted by adhd mama on
My daughters co-morbidity is Sensory Processing Disorder.... needed extra stimulation, or being overwhelmed with normal stimulation of the senses. Hearing would be with the Auditory system, linked to the Vestibular system. J's talk of needed extra stimulation in the volume, but passing hearing tests fine really makes me wonder. As well the comment of too much background and tracking too many people in the conversation. As my husband and I read and study we find that everyone has a different nervous/sense system. I wonder if something like that is going on with your partner?
When the ADHD person says they don't feel included
Submitted by Luvhimtopieces on
I have been with my ADHD husband for 15 years. We raised my son and his daughter together. By the time we met, I had done a lot of soul-searching after being too submissive for too long. He had also done a lot of work trying to save a doomed marriage. We have had a pretty good base because of it. However, he was one of the first Ritalin kids and says that because it didn't help, because his parents kicked him out as a young teen when he stopped taking it, the treatment system doesn't work. As long as that's the case, we will always have an unpredictable factor regarding his emotions. When he says he doesn't feel like part of the family, it's because he's isolating himself based on the assumption that nobody understands what it's like inside his head. He feels that he is constantly cut off or interrupted when he has something important to say, and doesn't believe he does the same thing. He also doesn't believe that interrupting is part of a normal, enthusiastic group conversation. He has explained how his brain works differently and can't keep up with multiple speakers. He gets annoyed, too, that the kids and I share an irreverent sense of humor. Yet, many times he is perfectly fine to join in and is really fun to be around. I have learned to listen to him differently, and occasionally tease him that while I'm really glad he's talking to me, tomorrow he'll be back to forgetting how well behaved I was! I'm sure there are factors that influence when he is able to participate and when he's moody and defensive. Since I haven't been able to pin them down, he says I haven't cared enough to learn to read him - some days! Other days he's lucky to have me and can't get enough!
Hi luvhimtopieces....
Submitted by c ur self on
Your post identifies what I believe is one of the greatest causes of conflict in any relationship...Our desire to understand or having expectations forced on us to understand our spouse.
You mentioned several things about yourself, (your personality, your way of thinking and living) and you mentioned several things about him (his personality, his way of thinking and living) that is different than you....
Conflict will always follow when we refuse to accept (acceptance doesn't mean agreement) each other as we are. The desire to (mold, control, fix) change the other causes unrealistic expectations on both sides. It's just a human Dilemma to desire to have our way (we are all locked into a mind that see's it one way)....So if a person thinks "Hey if I can change her or him, then we can coexist with more closeness and understanding (there's that word again)..."A better marriage" Right?? LOL...
To enter a relationship and start doing this to one another just pushes the relationship farther into the abyss....But, sadly most people want recognize it, we had rather fight for what we want....And, what does it get us?? To many nights in separate beds, to many bills from the counselor. Even if we find out after the wedding that we feel so different that we want be able to share or agree on many things...Isn't it better to accept that fact and be at peace even if we live almost separate lives??....Than to allow our desire to change another person destroy any hope of a peaceful life together??
C
He is lucky to have you!
Submitted by adhd mama on
adhd mama, those hugs are my
Submitted by Luvhimtopieces on
Hugs...How Can You Go Wrong!? lol
Submitted by kellyj on
I love that one Luvhimtopieces..."my favorite part of the "poor impulse control"! If you can't beat 'em, right? This works both ways. My wife and I recently started using the word "friend" when things start heading in the wrong direction. This was part of the advise that Melissa gave us to use in the couples course we just finished and it works very well. Using a cue word instead of "arguing about arguing" is better in all respects! lol I've found the natural tendency to hug my wife at the same time just came naturally. I can't tell you how well this works. It turns a potential negative into a positive in a heart beat....like turning on a dime! What has become very clear even if we knew this before....is that most of the time, it really is just arguing about arguing and not the subject matter. My wife and I rarely disagree about any topic where we really can't find some compromise we both can live with. It seems...just getting to that place to begin with is where most of the conflicts arise from!
J
The Crux adhd mama
Submitted by kellyj on
What you said here is so true..."Some one who gets that each day is different in how able an ADHDer is able to function! I'm working really hard right now to communicate when I can tell something inside me is off, and give the "why" if I can pin point it.. and I am always trying to rise above the symptoms to be a bit more consistent for my husband/family."
This is so refreshing to hear someone else say this! Mostly....I've found that many times, I do know what is going on inside me. The problems many times are not my ADHD symptoms or that I am not aware of them. I've discovered that many of my old habits ( or adaptive strategies ) were there for a reason.....to manage my ADHD symptoms! I've found these "managing symptoms", or their side effects to be as annoying as the actual ADHD symptoms themselves for other people. This is a real Catch 22 until you've learned new ones that don't have this effect. These are things you can change and have more control of....but going from 100 to 0 with nothing else to replace them with...it leaves you in a difficult situation many times with no other alternatives. I've told my wife many times now...."think of me a first grader on their first day of school or... At least for a while until I catch up with the rest of the kids!"
I think that's the second part of what you said "My husband who has ADD interprets this as I am moody, batten down the hatches, but that isn't what I am trying to communicate at all, I would rather him watch me and in a couple days when I'm out of the funk/or hyperactivity he can tell me what he saw/what to change that would help our relationship."
For someone to do this with ADHD, it takes some dedicated effort in at least, figuring out exactly what is what? You have to do that before you can actually communicate this to anyone else? I think it's so ironic that your H had ADD....and yet he still interprets what he is seeing as moody or getting ready for a fight? Just simply being able to say what is going on with you so you can nip any further misinterpretations in the bud is really all you can do, but it works wonders is you are just able to do this in first place.....that is the crux right there.
Good for you for all the effort you've put in to get to where you are...it really isn't everyone else's responsibility to figure this out for us.....and then later.... to find out that they are wrong in what they thought it was...know what I mean? lol
J
Manipulating your environment
Submitted by Mihi Crede on
and it happened again
Submitted by dvance on
So this morning we were out for Easter brunch--8 of us at a restaurant--me, hubby, my 14 YO son, my 17 YO son and his girlfriend, and three friends of ours. Everyone was talking fine...except DH. I don't think he said one thing. BUT...he was texting my 17 YO son. During the brunch. Sitting at the same table. I was sitting in between them, not on purpose, just how everyone sat. And the 17 YO is like, Dad--I'm right here--why are you texting me?? It was so weird. And rude to have your phone out at a holiday brunch with friends and family. I said something to DH and he gets all quiet and huffy. Which is also lovely out in public. So strange.
How did we ever get by without checking in every 5..LOL...
Submitted by c ur self on
IPhones' are just another trinket to hyper focus on....It's better some times to leave them at home or in the car....They sure can be a determent to face to face communicating when people can't manage them. And treat every ding or buzz as a life or death must check...
C
Texting at Easter brunch
Submitted by Luvhimtopieces on
So, your DH tried to reach out to your son and was publicly rebuffed? Isn't that just as rude as texting at the table? Please try to see how hurtful that would be. ADHD can make verbal communication difficult and often causes misunderstandings between me and mine. A lot of times, what I heard isn't remotely what he thinks he said. It would be easier if he would text so we could see the actual words used sometimes, but my guy prefers phone calls, and in certain moods, long rambling lectures. It's a given that wisdom and maturity are hard-won traits for ADHD. It is frustrating. This is a wonderful place to vent and be heard, and I hope nothing I've said will change that for you. My H is very sensitive and would be devastated if I put him on display by bringing attention to his quirks, so I am projecting a bit.
I completely understand that
Submitted by dvance on
I completely understand that no good will come from publicly calling someone out on their behavior. I am a teacher--we don't even do that in a classroom. I was sitting next to DH and quietly whispered to him to see who he was texting--he has a demanding job with lots of out of town stuff going on and it may have been a work thing that he needed to deal with. It was more the 17 YO that said something to him. What I don't get is how a 47 year old man with a big job STILL cannot function in a group like the rest of us. At some point, don't you learn those skills? Don't you notice that when you are at a table with multiple people and NO ONE else is on a phone that maybe being on your phone is a bad idea??? He travels for work a ton--what if he pulls out his phone during a work thing and starts texting or going through it? My guess is he won't have this job very long if he does that. And he might-I wouldn't know. I get super tired of trying to figure out how to make things better or clearer or easier or less stressful or more manageable or more broken down or nicer or delivered in the right tone at the right time of the day. I can tell you no one in my life gives that much thought to me and my feelings!! That is not a pity party--I don't need all the "handling". I am a big girl, just tell me. Not every interaction has to be so loaded and with DH it is. It's exhausting. Texting at the Easter brunch table?? Not okay--grow up and put your phone away.
It Is exhausting
Submitted by Luvhimtopieces on
Texting while with people gathered for a social occasion
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Dvance, your situation at the table is very familiar. You asked,
Don't you notice that when you are at a table with multiple people and NO ONE else is on a phone that maybe being on your phone is a bad idea??? He travels for work a ton--what if he pulls out his phone during a work thing and starts texting or going through it?
In offline life here, nothing that I said affected my husband's habit of doing the same. He has changed, though, and does less of the texting while sitting close with a group in conversation, or with me.
Maybe the feature articles that started coming out in the online news, talking about the problem as widespread during social events, that it was problematic, that it irritated other people at the table, and that people gathered in restaurants were doing things like requiring the texter to pay for dessert for everyone had an effect on my partner. I know there are house rules in place in some businesses that phones need to be off & stowed during meetings. I don't know anything about your husband's workplace, of course, but generally it seems that the social and business culture has worked out some norms for behavior with phones, that they need to be stowed at times like your gathering at a table.
Before he decided to text less when gathered with people, my husband would do things like take a LD call right there at the table, on what was supposed to be date night. Realllly romantic. I drew the line at date night. He'd receive a text and look at it right there on top a table for two, you know, checkerd cloth, candle in the Chianti bottle, Frank Sinatra singing "Alll the wayyyy" in the background. ... I would just quit talking, wait until he noticed that things were silent, and tell him when he noticed to go ahead and complete his interaction with the person at the other end of the texting, that I could wait. In a non-snarky, non irritated way. To get to peaceability about it, I had to shift from feeling like something needed correcting, to just letting it go, acceptance, as Delphine says..... I wasn't going to compete with a piece of electronics for his attention. No way. Let him do his cell thing.... It always startled him when I quit talking and told him to go ahead. I do wonder if he thought he could both carry on a conversation and text at the same time.
Maybe he was texting away in social events right in front of people because he saw that other people were doing it, he got accustomed to it, and it was something that he could do during a social event so that he could do his usual multi-directional thinking.
I'm glad that he paid attention to something, perhaps that round of articles about it online, or maybe somebody called him out on it, and that he's modified it.
:) give your hub one of those squeezy balls, to relieve tension?
Oh, and I had to give up feeling embarrassed on his behalf if he did something in a group that set off people in the group. That wasn't too easy. But that seemed to be something I had to learn to do.
Two Way Conversation....Not Feeling Included?
Submitted by kellyj on
I think this is a great topic and one that I am exploring a lot currently. The hearing loss thing is really interesting. I ran into this quite a while ago related to ADHD but the studies seem to be few in trying to explain this? The fact that 4 people with ADHD (myself included) mentioned in this thread alone is really telling? Why? I have no idea? I know little about the correlation. What I do know is from my own experience combined with what I've researched about hearing loss.(google information about hearing loss and conversations) I think this is a really good start for anyone wondering since it aligns itself completely to what I know myself. The ADHD part....still no answers only, if you look at just one article I pulled up just now to see how this relates....I see many similarities.
A common complaint among listeners with hearing loss (HL) is that they have difficulty communicating in common social settings. Yes....like I mentioned earlier...more than 2 other people at one time is very difficult.
This article reviews how normal-hearing listeners cope in such settings, especially how they focus attention on a source of interest. Results of experiments with normal-hearing listeners suggest that the ability to selectively attend depends on the ability to analyze the acoustic scene and to form perceptual auditory objects properly. Unfortunately, sound features important for auditory object formation may not be robustly encoded in the auditory periphery of HL listeners. Meaning? What comes naturally and easily to others take a lot of effort and dedicated focus and concentration which is exhausting to keep up for too long. I think this is one of those things that most people haven't experience and don't understand where and why there is a problem? What's so difficult about something that takes not effort and just happens automatically right?
In turn, impaired auditory object formation may interfere with the ability to filter out competing sound sources. Peripheral degradations are also likely to reduce the salience of higher-order auditory cues such as location, pitch, and timbre, which enable normal-hearing listeners to select a desired sound source out of a sound mixture. Degraded peripheral processing is also likely to increase the time required to form auditory objects and focus selective attention so that listeners with HL lose the ability to switch attention rapidly (a skill that is particularly important when trying to participate in a lively conversation). Without a doubt! Rapid shifts in topics, interjections, going from one topic to another and back again is like 52 card pickup for me. In stead of laying the cards on the table in suits in order....this kind of thing is like throwing the whole deck into the air and trying sort the suits while they are all scattered on the floor. Very unnerving and frustrating. I find that women do this much more than men my wife included. To make this point from my perspective here.....
Watching the TV show "The View" (for example) makes my head hurt after only a few minutes. What it appears like for me is 4 or 5 woman all talking at once, talking over each other, talk about different topics or interjections at an extraordinarily fast pace...and all of it appears completely unrelated much of the time with no context what so ever. To me...it seems like no one is waiting their turn to speak in any kind of linear fashion what so ever? It scrambles my brain just thinking about it! lol To be in the studio audience for me (if that were to happen) would be like fingernails running down a chalk board. Really....I'm not exaggerating here. That's how bad it is and the effect it has on me? As I am saying this...this is my problem not theirs or anyone else like this since I'm the one who can't follow along and enjoy it. Here's an example of what I mean...again, it's not a judgment....it's my inability to flow with this...obviously, not a problem for everyone else who enjoys engaging like this....
https://youtu.be/awxmhl878fM
In contrast....a talk show with a host (The Tonight Show for example ) who have guests come on one at a time while others still interject is much easier to manage for me. Here's a good example ( one of my favorites from the past ...it's dated so please look past the sexist remarks....it's not why I think it's so funny....the Rat Pack is Dead, literally! lol ) just to illustrate. As I see myself here in a "who would I be here?"..... Watch George Gobel and how he delivers...that would match my style, speed and even losing track of what I am saying sometimes very closely.
https://youtu.be/FyPxUA-Ik1o
Finally, peripheral deficits may interfere with strategies that normal-hearing listeners employ in complex acoustic settings, including the use of memory to fill in bits of the conversation that are missed. Thus, peripheral hearing deficits are likely to cause a number of interrelated problems that challenge the ability of HL listeners to communicate in social settings requiring selective attention. Keywords: attention, segregation, auditory object, auditory scene analysis Imagine yourself at a restaurant with a group of friends. Conversation trades off from one talker to another. Especially when the topic under discussion is interesting and emotions are high, interruptions are common. Quips and gentle barbs punctuate the conversation, short bursts of levity that add to the feeling of camaraderie. Topics change quickly as one anecdote reminds another talker of some vaguely related idea. In the background, laughter and conversation from nearby tables swirls by.
Most young, normal-hearing (NH) listeners find such settings engaging and exciting. And too the point....for me, about 15-20 minutes of this and I'm ready for a break. If the people are funny and interesting ( I'm learning something or they have a good story to tell this will extend this on indefinitely). If it's just giving opinions or critiquing and nothing more....I lose interest rapidly.
However, for the listener with hearing loss (HL), such a scene can be intimidating and overwhelming (Noble, 2006). Competing sounds can mask other sounds acoustically, rendering parts undetectable. Absolutely! I miss key words or even just one word that makes comments unintelligible without it. Most of the time...it's easier to let it go than continually interrupt to have others repeat themselves which is very annoying after a while even for me on the other side if that happens.
Multiple sources vie for attention at any given moment. The source that is the desired focus of attention shifts suddenly and unpredictably as the conversation evolves. Rapid changes in topic reduce the contextual cues that can help disambiguate the meaning of noisy or partially masked speech. As I experience this...it goes right back to watching "The View" ....it's what came to mind when I read it and also why I included it as an example of the worst case scenario.
In such settings, hearing aids can help, especially bilateral aids; however, many listeners are still frustrated and unable to participate in the social interaction, which may result in social isolation (Gatehouse & Akeroyd, 2006; Noble, 2006).
One factor that undoubtedly contributes to the problems that HL listeners experience even with amplification is that they have poor frequency resolution (Moore, 2007). As a result, more of a desired signal will be inaudible or distorted. In addition, HL listeners appear to have a more fundamental problem: They generally have difficulty focusing on one sound source and filtering out unwanted sources (Gatehouse & Akeroyd, 2006). To understand why HL listeners have difficulty focusing selective attention, we must first understand the processes allowing NH listeners to direct attention to a desired source and comprehend it. Although not intended as an exhaustive literature review, this discussion provides examples, many from the recent literature, that explore the factors allowing NH listeners to communicate in common social settings and that give insight into why peripheral hearing impairments may interfere with everyday communication in common social settings. From this narrative emerges the idea that deficits at early stages of auditory processing can lead to failures of high-level perception because of the way in which different stages of processing build on one another.
What I do know for sure about this.....I have no problem with some people....and have a great difficulty with others. For those I have a problem with (or who expereince problems with me) they would argue that I can't relate or communicate well with them. However....the people I don't expereince this with....have no problems with me what so ever and would probably say they don't understand the people who say they do?
It seems very...either / or and hard to pin point exactly why? I think it's because there are a number of reasons for this as this article suggests and the more one person has issues with any number or combination of these variables....the worse or better it is for them? Just my experience to throw into this for more clarity. I am still far from really figuring this out more than this right now? Any ideas or thoughts to contribute would be of great interest for me?
I really do think the gender differences makes this worse since most of the people I don't have problems with are men....and most that I do are women? Just my experience...not a judgment. The fact is....I'm working hard to correct this so I can enjoy the same kind of conversations with anyone I meet men or women to be sure:)
J
I Sure Understand...
Submitted by Delphine on
I watched both youtube clips you included and frankly, I have problems with them both. As I've posted before, I was deafened age 7. I now have a cochlear implant which is very helpful, but I still have issues in common social settings. When I watch stuff online, captions are preferable. Most youtube subtitles do not work well at all. IF a speaker is very clear, sometimes I won't need them. But something like The View--forget it!
So anyway, if this is part of ADHD, not being able to follow well in social situations despite having normal hearing, then I can understand why, as dvance posted, her hubby was texting her son at brunch even though he was right there at the table with the conversation swirling around.
You're right, it is exhausting trying to keep up with such interactions. I can enjoy them up to a point, but it definitely is best if I am able to leave when I feel like it.
I don't think this is all about my hearing btw. It is also that I am an introvert/loner. I am wired to need more alone time than most people.
Delphine
Exhausted introvert
Submitted by Luvhimtopieces on
I'm with you Delphine. I would be a complete butthead if I didn't accept my ADHD's flaws because I have fibromyalgia and social anxiety. I can function fine in social situations, if I can get myself to go! But it is very draining. My part-time job isn't difficult, but it takes me a lot of alone time in my own space to recover from all the people. He, on the other hand, needs the company of others on a regular basis, and also just gets restless and needs to get out of the house. I'm extremely grateful that I have someone who understands my need for solitude and appreciates the freedom it gives him. We have our battles but that's not one of them. I hope you get the alone time you need. I'm learning more and more that it's ok to ask people (politely, at first lol) to give you your daily dose of breathing space.
Yes, plenty of alone time
Submitted by Delphine on
J, this hearing post incredible info.
Submitted by dedelight4 on
J,Thank you for this remarkable post on hearing and perception. I learned so many things, especially important things the doctors never told my husband about hearing loss.
He has severe high end or treble clef pitch loss. He turns the bass completely off and the treble way UP when listening to the radio, and/or television. Its very unbalanced and
annoying for me, but I've learned to tolerate it for his sake. He also has to have the volume up to extreme levels. EXAMPLE: I listen to the television at level 8 or 10, but he has the level set anywhere from 25 to 85, so you can imagine it gets extremely loud in the house during tv time. He also talks extremely loud,which can be startling for people who
first meet him. He also has tinnitis which bothers him quite a bit. He also talks about many of the same things you mentioned in your post, such as crowded rooms with many voices, multiple conversations around him and feeling overwhelmed with these situations. Hes told me that he knows hearing aids wont work for him, but since he's never tried them' I'm not sure if he's right about that.
TV Solutions for hearing loss
Submitted by Delphine on
dedelight, all TV's today have closed captioning capability. I hope you have that option enabled on your TV.
I, too, like to turn the sound way up. But I won't subject others to the sound. I use headphones.
You ought to insist your hubby get fitted for a hearing aid. And I mean insist. Don't take "no" for an answer! They have digital ones these days that I understand are really good. I opted for a cochlear implant, myself, because my hearing loss is profound.
The hearing aid would help with a lot of his hearing-related issues including the volume of his voice.
Really Interesting Dede?
Submitted by kellyj on
Wow..your H and I share a lot in common here. I too have the tendency to turn the treble up but also the bass too. I've been tested since I was very young so I am familiar with my deficits which come in the high and low ranges. Funny thing....one ear is quite a bit different than the other one and the ranges that are low in one ear are not in another. I've made a running joke about this saying between the two....I have ONE good ear! lol
This really came to light for me when I was in a band (briefly for a couple of years). There were 7 of us playing different instuments and I traded off lead and rhythm guitar depending on the song we were playing. The head or leader of our band was always getting mad at me for turning up my guitar too loud compared to his. What I discovered was I couldn't hear myself play while the rest of the band was playing at the same time. We didn't have monitors (not that sophisticated or complex a PA sound system) and I kept telling him that I could hear myself at all when I turned it down to his level. This was when I really began to notice this outside of playing music. What I realized was that it sounded too loud for me too in one respect....but for the ranges of frequencies that I couldn't hear many times had to be loud enough to fill in the rest. The higher the quality of sound (or equipment ) I used changed this dramatically.
For example...I run the TV through a good sound system instead of the tiny speaker and I can turn the volume down and still understand it? I've noticed that the people I can understand better (and longer) have voices that project and they tend to enunciate better than others who talk softly and roll off when they speak. Some folks tend to go up and down when they speak (dynamically) while others are more mono-tone and flat. The flat people I have more trouble with so volume is not the only variable that changes it for me?
I've been playing around with this for years now and I've found that if I set the treble and bass at 0...it sounds better but I need more volume and the reverse is true going the other way (like your H).
What Delphine mentioned is another consideration. Introverts tend to speak differently than extroverts. In my own family....my oldest sister is definitely an introvert in comparison to myself and my other sister and I are more extroverts. The simple fact seems pretty clear to me from my end. Introverts get overwhelmed easily by extroverts who appear more dynamic and expressive in general. Again...this is not a judgment...it's a preferred style or 'manner." I have my own introverted style at times and when I'm done....I'm done and need a break. Between the three of us....I'm kind of in the middle so I know it from both sides as either being too much or just right?
The other really interesting part to this has to do with volume and emotions. I have always tended to get loud at certain times both in happy and angry moments. For me....this isn't yelling....it's just raising the volume up with no change in delivery. When I yell....you know it and that's different however....some would argue this with me (and have) to no end or resolution my wife in particular. She's really sensitive to the volume of my voice even when the tone doesn't change. I have always known (and have had it pointed out to me) that when I get excited either positive or negative....the volume goes up along with it. It occurred to me that I had learned long ago to adjust the volume of my voice according to the situation and do this automatically because others had complained (going way back). But when I get excited ....to me it just seems what would be normal if I didn't adjust it. In other words....the way I normally talk is not how I would be normally. Normal for me it seems....is louder than most other people even though I am very aware of my volume and don't like to be loud at all. In fact....when confronted with loud people...I tend to shy away and it makes me uncomfortable.
That last statement is really telling to me. When it comes to volume and noise....I have a good reference to work from since I don't like loud myself. It appears that I managed to adjust this when growing up without too much of a problem and it seemed to happen without really trying? When it comes to a lot of other ADHD symptoms where I do not have this kind of reference....these are the ones that are so much more difficult to change or make the same adjustments? Just an observation without any real answers but I think there is more to this none the less?
J