When words are the worst kind of communication.

Congratulations :)

Submitted by Standing on Tue, 09/30/2014 - 09:20

You started a thread! Good work, c ur self :)

I agree with what you've written here about communication. For all of my life, my safe house has been disconnection and silence. I am not add or adhd, but often have felt that maybe I do fit somewhere on the autism spectrum. I can write alot easier than I can speak, although I have found my voice over the past few years, as well. By necessity. I was getting trampled all over and speaking up became a matter of survival. I do not enjoy having to voice negativity. It's very distressing to me. But I no longer expect another person to know what I feel or think without my putting those feelings and thoughts into words.

All other things aside, I do expect my husband to care what I feel and how I think. That is a reasonable expectation, in my opinion. I expect him to value me as a person, not for what I can do For Him. I expect him to desire to form goals together, as equal partners, in unity, to ensure that as we are paddling our canoes we are at least headed in the same direction. I'm not getting any of those basic expectations met and that's not because of flaws in my communication style. It's because he has no clue what it would be like to actually care about such stuff where someone else is concerned. I cannot communicate to him how it works because caring takes time and attention and diligence and persistence... and it does not produce instantaneous gratification.

When my husband comes out of his box, I feel compassion. He touches the complex of nerves in me that are highly sensitized to try to make others feel better, to do more for them, to prove to them that I am eager to serve. I was raised by a narcissist. This comes naturally to me. The problem is, it is never enough and it never will be enough, unless I completely disappear and become nothing more than a reflection of how he wants to appear to others.

Some folks are deep wells. Others are dry cisterns, empty shells. It is important to be able to know the difference.

Reasonable expectation?

Submitted by c ur self on Tue, 09/30/2014 - 10:48

Thanks:) It wasn't hard at all this is my second one...

(All other things aside, I do expect my husband to care what I feel and how I think. That is a reasonable expectation, in my opinion. I expect him to value me as a person, not for what I can do For Him. I expect him to desire to form goals together, as equal partners, in unity, to ensure that as we are paddling our canoes we are at least headed in the same direction. I'm not getting any of those basic expectations met and that's not because of flaws in my communication style. It's because he has no clue what it would be like to actually care about such stuff where someone else is concerned. I cannot communicate to him how it works because caring takes time and attention and diligence and persistence... and it does not produce instantaneous gratification.)

I say yes, definitely reasonable in my mind also. But, what will be the fruit this expectation produces for me, if it is not shared by the one I place the expectation on? This is my concern. Can I move on with my life, without any self-inflicted emotional damage because of someone's nonacceptance to my feelings about my needs? Can I be fully accepting of their rights as a human being to live it completely as they see fit, even if their choices' take them away from me?

Or, will I beat my head against the same brick wall over and over again that only produces direct injury to me, and collateral damage to everyone else in the path!

curself, I think you've hit

Submitted by PoisonIvy on Tue, 09/30/2014 - 11:30

curself, I think you've hit the nail on the head here. My expectations of my spouse are reasonable, but he does not share them or says he cannot meet them. Then it's my duty to decide how to proceed.

My expectations of my spouse

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Tue, 09/30/2014 - 22:20

My expectations of my spouse are reasonable, but he does not share them or says he cannot meet them.

Right there is where my own situation takes a sharp turn to the left. My spouse insists he is meeting my expectations. He insists "everyone" can see his progress but me. He insists I am dangling a carrot hanging on a stick in front of him, one he can can never reach.

For me, what I need, is for Liz to state her needs, and also determine if they are unmet. I do not need my spouse to pick some archaic, stereotypical standards, and insist any woman would be pleased with what he does. I have enveloped satisfaction in myself quite a while ago. My standards are mine.

The dirty dishes pile up. They get washed if Liz washes them. The house gets dirty. and it gets dusted and swept if Liz cleans it. The pool is green. Liz does not like swimming and did not want a pool in the first place, so that is a moot point and/or bone of contention in the first place. The landscaping is overgrown. I recruited/hired a niece to help me, however she is in college, so her spare time is minimal. The yard is cluttered. Liz will tidy the yard and stash, out of sight, the stuff she is able to move. The cash flow of the construction business is upside down.. Liz needs to pay the bills and deal with those that there is not enough money to cover. I cheer as my spouse has chosen to raise his hourly rates. Yay. The billable hours are where the other half of the issue falls. Not that my spouse does not work his butt off - however they are not "billable" hours.

Then it's my duty to decide how to proceed.

This is where I am. I really like that it has clicked in my head. I have spoken to my two adult children. I have spoken with my spouse last night. What the heck good would it do to install a beautiful fence with a gate if my spouse boycotts/rebels/cannot-comply with storing the stuff behind it? The idea is good in theory - just like a budget. It does no good if it is not incorporated into daily living by both people in the couple.

Can't figure out why he won't participate. Well, of course he TELLS me why. It is because I need psychological counseling. I am really starting to resent hearing that.

Just venting today, I guess. I told him last night that I have had enough. I cannot live with all this tension. I do not want to plan an annual family Halloween party. I do not want to host it at our house. I just don't have it in me this year. He then proceeded to tell me that he confided in a very reliable source who he trusts - and they told him they have no idea what is wrong - - -with me.

I must, I will, I desire, I CAN do what is good for me. Cannot dream my life into what it is not.

Liz

Duty?

Submitted by c ur self on Tue, 09/30/2014 - 22:48

I was contemplating about marriage today as I rode my bike...."A man will leave his Father and Mother, cleave unto his Wife, and they two shall become one flesh"

In our wedding, I said two things when asked...I do and I will....And both of those affirmative answer's were about my commitment to my wife as long as I live...She also answered in the affirmative I do and I will...about her commitment to me as long as she lives....It's quiet simple really...Thankfully, no where in the vow did it say y'all can set the expectations for each other later....So the reality is I am at her mercy, and she mine for as long as we live to experience this oneness and all that a interdependent life together produces.

The struggle is for me to not gauge, or temper my efforts .based on the amount of love I feel being returned...I need to only focus on My I Do and My I will....

I am going to ponder this for a while.

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Tue, 09/30/2014 - 09:50

C UR Self,

How many times have I tried to press into a closed mind with words that wasn't desired, nor under no circumstances going to be heard, yet I continued. Too many! I know I have too often responded to my spouse's accusation that "You need psychological help," by running through the history of all the things I have done to improve myself and my marriage. And he still thinks I need psychological help.

How many of us have a safe house? Hmm. . . .?

Liz

Self-confidence vs humility and thankfulness...

Submitted by c ur self on Tue, 09/30/2014 - 11:21

When you have lived a life of over coming hardships and disadvantages, a life of responsibility, servitude, one that has been fruitful...One where the way's of Christ are desired...It is still easy to fall prey to the trappings of this carnal mind...If I fail to be thankful for this life I've been granted as the blessing from the Father it truly is then I miss it...

I had rather be known as as a gentle spirit, one easily taken advantage of with a heart of humility...Then one who always has the right answer!

Sadly I'm afraid I've resembled the later more than the former:(

Does every slanderous statement deserve a response?

Dear Father, Please fill me with your continual love as to not dish out slanderous statements, nor respond to them, which sadly is just my testimony that I'm not at rest in you...amen and amen.

Need Help....Any Takers?

Submitted by kellyj on Tue, 09/30/2014 - 16:08

Great topic and timely for me cu ur self. I do a lot of spewing pabulum on this forum but in the end, I'm dealing with the same issues everyone else is......and most of the time equally confused?????

So this morning I approached my wife about a minor incursion yesterday......the details are not even worth going over since it really wasn't what our conflict was really about. And tryng to live by my own words....I approached her very gently about the real issue and even presented it as doing me a favor.....asking nicely. I find when I do this many times it gets thrown into all directions except the one that involves her part. And many times it gets thrown back my way. For the sake of arguement...let's pretend in this case that I didn't bring this on myself. ha ha

And the favor was to please work with me on my issues about getting caught unprepared with a sudden expectation of hers...the expectation was reasonable and like I said not so much the issue. The timing, immediacy and urgency was where I run into trouble and I've asked her many times to give me a heads up so I can get organized ( mentally ) to do whatever. There also didn't appear to be in real urgency as far as I could see and she couldn't give me a real reason either??? This is where it starts going wrong and I know from the past not to push this too far. I really like the idea of the safe house and sometimes not saying anything even if you know that there's more to it....especially when I see the conversation taking off in weird directions......any direction but the one leading back to her. I can tell it's hitting up against something that she doesn't want to talk about or look at. OK. I'm learning that silence is golden sometimes like c ur self is saying.....and letting the tortoise come out of it shell instead of pounding on the outside demanding that it come out. I get that.

But this morning when I did approach her with an ADHD related request ( about working with me on surprise demands..... and me not saying that I won't.....but just please try and consider this before acting first as it really makes it hard for me to do what you ask....no harm no foul if you don't but please don't do this every time!)......

Her response to me was " I don't understand.....but I don't agree." (in relationship to why I need her to do this for me)

How is that possible???????? How can you agree or disagree with something but admit first that you don't understand? This defies any logical explanation but I know that there's something underneath this. I thought I might get some insight from the other side perhaps?

I do believe her that she doesn't understand, that much I'm sure of. But what does it mean to say that I don't agree? What is she really saying?

I'm afraid to ask but I do really want to know so I can understand it enough to avoid this kind of thing in the first place? I stopped pushing for an explanation when she started dancing around the question and left it go. It does feel like there is a reason but I'm still wondering what it might be?

Good topic.

Read it backwards and it will clear up for you...

Submitted by c ur self on Tue, 09/30/2014 - 17:18

I don't agree with any request you can make of me, when it would cause me to have to respect a rule that I think you are trying to insert to keep from doing what I asked...So, my ability to understand completely your request is a non issue, because the answer will always be no. :)

Sorry being a man I couldn't help it....

I think you're right, c ur

Submitted by PoisonIvy on Tue, 09/30/2014 - 17:20

I think you're right, c ur self. "I don't understand but that doesn't matter, because no matter what the reason, I wouldn't agree."

Thanks You Two....At Least for the Laugh Ha Ha

Submitted by kellyj on Wed, 10/01/2014 - 08:33

I especially like your version Rosered as it is straight forward and to the point ( still rereading and laughing ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha )

And your version C UR SELF says it all. I tend to over complicate things sometimes ( not always bad.... checkers vs chess....both have their place).

What comes to mind is the book entitled " Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus"......In the forward it should say......"and in the case of ADHD refer to the index under "Pluto" for men......ha ha

I'm such a dweeb sometimes. ha

PS.........But seriously, this is useful for me ( either one you prefer )....and like I already said Rosered.......your version is short and (not so sweet?).....read it and weep! ha ha......but useful to memorize and use every time this happens and depending on the circumstance, I can simply cut to the chase........YES or NO

(nicely of course ha ha)

I really think that C UR SELF has hit upon a major clue in conflict resolution. The less words you say......the fewer the conflicts! And not talking about conflicts at all means no words at all.

What"s left? Actions. I like it!

One of my favorite movie lines of all time......the movie "Arthur" with Duddly Moore. Sir Arthur Geillgud (his major domo) is meeting Liza Minelli's father who is trying to engage him in conversation. Geilgud looks directly at him and in his dry elitist tone replies, "Try not to speak" and then walks away.

Makes me want to have a British accent sometimes :)

lol c ur self

Submitted by Standing on Tue, 09/30/2014 - 21:29

So true! :) I am planning to uphold my expectations, quietly. Wise as a serpent and gentle as a dove. That saying comes to mind :) Tomorrow i meet with counselor again, first time in awhile. Been listening to Christian programs about dealing with narcissists and trying not to growl at the suggestion that the hurt little child within needs love and tender understanding. Making small progress in that area. Today was a decent day. I have let lots of opportunities to disagree slide off like raindrops and don't feel like my tongue's been bit :) Happy night to you.

Strippin' it away to the bare bones

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Wed, 10/01/2014 - 08:55

Standing,

"I care that in the midst of the noise and clutter of our messy lives, that in the tiny moments we find to connect there is meaning, there are smiles even through tears, that we part feeling just a little bit stronger, a little more hopeful. That we are better off because of our friendship, that we are not alone – nothing else matters." ~unknown~

I do not care about my spouse's ADHD. Nor any other label he could have. Even I could have at that matter. What matters is I do not have the friend I once had.

For this ol' country gal - I miss that part. A whole honkin' lot.

Liz

Liz, I feel that, BUT

Submitted by Standing on Wed, 10/01/2014 - 09:06

for this ol' country gal, he is a friend I never had.

So who has changed? Not my husband. He is the same person, grown by a modicum of success into a new shape.

I have changed. Grown by suffering and disillusionment. How I respond to that is my choice and must not depend one tiny smidgen on him. He is who he is.

Despite his attempts to blame me - "I don't know what's wrong with her"s... I do remember the earliest hurts, the feeling that I was not enough, that I was only seeing the surface, that maybe the surface is all there is, that he requires constant newness and interestingness or else he will turn into a lump in a chair, that I am only here to mirror him as a good guy regardless of his behavior. I remember. The only thing that's changed is that I am no longer satisfied with that role.

Without the illusion, it's just me trying to grow up the rest of the way.

I hope you find your answer. Hugs!

I have ripened and matured

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Wed, 10/01/2014 - 10:02

Oh, I am feeling good. I have spent many a day reading books on wisdom, reading the Bible, listening to inspirational teachers, and learning. My life is my own. The teachers and counselors I search out are here to give me options and show me directions I did not know were available. They are not to make my decisions for me. In the end, when I know that I know that I know that I have done everything I possibly can, without starting to give away parts of myself that I cherish - I am on the right path.

I search not for utopia. Nor perfection. Just some give and take. And support. And partnership. And since I indeed shaped my marriage into a parent/child relationship, I can HOPE it can get shaped back into a man and woman relationship. And, in the end, if it really was only a parent/child relationship, then I can push the man I married out of the nest and let him fly! LOL!!! Even though that is not my job, since I have resigned the mother role! So, I'm not sure what the correct ending to this post should be?!?!?!?!?!?!? I find that particularly amusing at this moment :)

"Happiness is a mindset that can only be designed into the present. It’s not a point in the future or a moment from the past." ~unknown~

Liz

Giving away parts of self

Submitted by Standing on Wed, 10/01/2014 - 10:49

This makes me think of my Dad.

He gave away everything, but was not depleted by it.

He did know the secret, I believe... and I believe that the secret is - he did not expect anything in return? At least not from the recipient. I am thinking he was storing up treasure in heaven and that is where he is now, probably drinking a beer with Martin Luther. That makes me smile.

God loves a cheerful giver

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Wed, 10/01/2014 - 11:35

I believe I am a cheerful giver. A MARRIAGE is so much more. It goes round and round. When you give away all you have in a marriage, it is not a good thing.

A partnership takes 2.

I did the indifference thing. I got buried with unfinished/uncompleted jobs that totally overwhelmed me.

I CARE. Yep, I CARE, and in a marriage I have every right to EXPECT something. I want my solitude and peace to be in the Lord. It is. Walking His green earth, within the bonds of matrimony, I shall not be a zombie, bereft of all feelings, and full of all responsibilities. I think it is a very sad state of affairs that I feel alone in figuring out the baby steps to HELP ME disengage from his construction business. I am is his housekeeper, his grocery shopper, and his bookkeeper - and I have Mr. Prickly pants if I do not just agree with everything he says or does, then it is very lopsided. For me.

There is a complete difference in being content with me, with who I am, with the gifts I have to share, versus being an enabler who allows herself to get taken advantage of.

The boundaries are clear to me. There must be me, and there must be him, before there can be US. Leaning on EACHOTHER in MUTUAL comfort and respect is what I believe with all my being that a marriage is designed to be.

Today I am flummoxed by the fact that he sees clearly he is not in a financial position to hire someone to be the financial person for his business.- yet I am supposed to keep on keepin' on "for my own best interest." And with his understanding, he does not understand/realize what I add. How can this be possible?!?!?!?!?!?

That is CRAZY. CRAZY.

Marriage has things I want to expect. Yep. I will not turn off all my feelings to disengage. I did not get marriage to disengage, clean house, live with anger, and be invisible and un-needed - EXCEPT for the mundane things I have always assumed responsibility for doing.

I want more. He thinks he gives enough. That just ain't workin'. For me.

I am feeling pretty intense about the whole thing.

My Mom gave her all in all to my Dad. They will be married 57 years this November. My Dad was a raging alcoholic until 1991. They have nothing, they are financially destitute, and they have a relationship I do not want. I love both my parents. Their marriage is not the kind I want. My Mother-in-law gave her all in all to her husband. He despised her from around their 10th anniversary. They lived together in the same house until their death. A horrible, horrible example of what a marriage should be. I do not want to be the martyr. I have raised the bar on what I will accept from my marriage partner.

I have worked very, very, very hard to educate myself on marriage. I have learned behaviors to replace and fulfill the holes left by the poor ones that I do not want. How on God's green earth did I work myself to this place? Or possibly it is s good place. The place to say Enough is Enough. My boundaries have been trampled, and I do not like it.

I cannot just say I shall be indifferent.

I stood by his side and helped us into being deep, deep, deep in debt.

The place I am today, is not where I want to remain. I shall not suck it up. I shall not smile and say, "What ever you say honey." I shall figure out how to get unstuck- from the placed I have discovered I really am stuck.

Liz

"That is CRAZY. CRAZY." ... like a fox

Submitted by Standing on Wed, 10/01/2014 - 19:38

Liz, sounds to me like you are being gaslighted. Gas-lit? Whatever, from the old movie, you know?

Met with counselor today. He advised me to protect myself by seeking, at the least, a legal separation. He said, among other things, "You do not have to try to live with a dictator." "There must be ground rules."

I thought of you.

There;s alot of reality-re-writing and image-defending going on over there at your place, and some pretty unhealthy grandiosity, sounds like. Maybe it's more than add, as is the case here.

As for me, not sure what I'll do. Counselor suggested that husband and I sit down together and review info online re: narcissistic personality disorder. I have a pretty good idea how that will go. Not sure I'm up for it.

Best wishes.

Standing I caught the Tale End....

Submitted by kellyj on Wed, 10/01/2014 - 09:13

of what you said. I sympathize with your situation if the Narcissist part is correct. It's difficult to do what you said and knowing the feelings or at least the understanding from their side is most likely slim to none. It brings back memories (not my wife).....I'm growling with you! errrrrrr

It's also not a good indicator that you (we) haven't fully learned to get past it......still working on that part too (in cases where I'm confronted with it in my life). My reaction any more to this has turned more from hurt or feeling dismissed to simply getting angry because I know too much in a sense ( seeing what is actually happening in real time ). It's hard not to get angry but I also realize that this is all me and transferred feelings from my past to the present. Not fair to the "hurt little child within" currently standing in front of you...errrrr oops.

My therapist has reminded me that I'm only betraying myself each time I do this since I'm allowing (them) to make me the person I don't want to be.

It's a work in progress but none the less.......I feel your pain.

Thank you, J.

Submitted by Standing on Wed, 10/01/2014 - 10:01

Thank you, J.

NPD was revealed through the testing and interviews which formed his psych evaluation, I did not identify it. I only knew that it seemed something else was present along with add. Now it is all beginning to make sense.

I'm beginning to see how my history and my weaknesses blended to allow this to occur and then to continue for 10 years. My husband is not responsible for that. I feel very, very slow in awakening, but resolved to continue in growth.

In present day life = With short-term encounters, such as with irate customers, I am happy to appease them and agree with them (to a point) and to move them on through without further incident. I seem to have developed a way of including in my appeasement the firm statement: "I will do it for you This Time" and then being courageous enough to remind them of that "warning" if they return with another similar issue. I've had to face alot of old fears in order to do this without dissolving into a puddle of people-pleasing. I've felt the increased respect (albeit annoyed respect) that generally comes from others when I don't back down that next time and that has helped me to grow. I don't expect anything from these people, so it's easy.

At home, in my sanctuary, it's different. I have expected so much more.... again, my problem. At home, I was stuck in the old family patterns, trying to make something of nothing? Trying to redeem old issues? Trying to get the understanding I never got in family of origin? Beating my head against an ancient wall? Seems so. That's the part I must stop and knowing that the other guy has his own narcissistic injury is imperative. My relationship with my husband cannot heal my old mess anymore than I can heal his. But learning to respond to him with loving concern may heal me, regardless of how he responds? Because it is in giving that we receive? It's my working theory of the moment, I really believe that we may have made more progress if the add did not cause him to forget all the giving. The two conditions working together seem to work against any progress that may be made and that's what I need to discuss with counselor.

It's Hard When You Realize Your Part Standing

Submitted by kellyj on Wed, 10/01/2014 - 12:43

For me, in reference to the things you've been saying and growing up in a Narcissistic environment......(they NPD's) engineer everything to work around them. Having ADHD ( even though no one knew at the time).....gives someone like this the perfect excuse to use it against you for their own benefit. Bottom line here is that they set things up to serve them first ( always ) and you second......serving them becomes second nature......as a child you already are supposed to behave and learn obedience ( in a healthy way).....but this kind of environment only teaches you that your value is to serve others (them in reality) and put your own needs second. It's really messed up! What's worse is when you realize what I just said and begin to see this in yourself......which is also really messed......which means your messed up!!! ouch!!

All I have to say about this in comparison to the ADHD issues that I have to contend with.........it seems in many respects that the issues that come from this kind of thing appear to actually disappear overtime and not return. Looking on the bright side for you........Another way to say this would be that it doesn't appear that as you get past this kind of ( messed up )....it has a more lasting quality to it and you don't need to keep being such a watch dog over it in time.......not like the ADHD issues.

I've found that even though I learn better strategies to deal with my ADHD.....it's always there with me like or not. Kind of like Shingles....it stays with you forever and is there lurking for it's next opportunity.

Thank God the aftermath of living with a NPD appears to need less vigilance as time goes on.......my ADHD is quite enough thank you very much.

If I'm correct in saying this....it bodes well for you. Hoping that's true.

PS I still have to deal with not getting pissed off when I see it......still working on it. ha

J,

Submitted by Standing on Wed, 10/01/2014 - 19:49

I'm sorry, I'm not understanding you, but that could be my own weariness.

My counselor has told me that he wishes my husband had only add. He says that my husband's npd is a much more troublesome issue. I reminded him that I am intimately acquainted with the disorder and that I now understand why I could not seem to extricate myself from this 10- year coaster-ride. I was attributing the issues to add. I'd grown numb to the npd stuff, due to over-exposure, I suppose.

Anyway, I am still trying to piece alot together, but I know now, with the vaguest shadow of a doubt still lingering, that there is nothing I can do to make my husband see me as anything other than an extension of himself. In the past, he has equated add with being "a bit disorganized". I am sure he thinks npd is a matter of being "a bit selfish". I don't see that notion changing any decade soon.

Best wishes to you!

Standing....Sorry For Being Vague

Submitted by kellyj on Thu, 10/02/2014 - 09:33

I don't want to make any assumptions that directly pertain to you or your husband since I have no real basis or understanding of the situation....so all I can do is sight some examples or insight...trying not to give advise maybe just my own personal insight. One man's experience with NPD?

But I was referring to you not your husband. Let me explain.

When I first went to see my therapist years ago, I was trying to tell him about my family experience. I used to use the term "insidious" to describe something that I couldn't identify or explain at the time. This was in reference to the fact that on paper....I had no horror stories to tell him like the kind that most people would relate to as being a "bad" childhood or even having "bad" parents. This is true in that I had many great opportunities given too me along the way and I am very thankful for them....as well as many great childhood memories with my family. So where's the problem? Most people would consider me lucky in many ways. I would not disagree. So again, I don't see the problem?

The "problem" that I now have come to understand came from the NPD environment I was referring to.....and specifically the relationship between my mother and my father which of course is where it all begins for most of us depending on factor like divorce and merged families single parents etc...

But I had the opportunity to have a front row seat if you will.....in watching a married relationship ( my parents) unfold in front of me ( with me within in it of course) with one Narcissist (my father) and one co-dependant partner (my mother).

As time as passed and I have learned and grown myself (plus just simply getting older and maybe wiser? hopefully) My story has changed from the way I use to see it and I've become much more objective about the whole thing ( gaining perspective I didn't use to have).

Back then in my therapist office I would tell him that my father was the "bad guy" in most cases and see my mother as the "victim". In a very real sense I was right but not in the way one would read this to be.

In many respects I see the NPD as being the "bad guy" here but I also see that my mother's role as "victim" to be equally bad in every way. She had her part to play and she was as much to blame ( if you need to say it that way) as my father.

I think the better way to say this is that my father's NPD took the lead and dominated the situation....but my mother walked right into it and settled in perfectly in her role as well. I say this because I now see where she came from ( her family growing up) and can also see that she was waiting for someone just like my father to come along and control her world for her. He was the perfect mate for her and she for him. In that....it was a match made in heaven......a highly dysfunctional match but perfect none the less.

But because of this dysfunction....it generated everything you might expect from this kind of relationship. A tyrannical leader who controlled every decision and lorded over things ( he was a good leader (and a good man) by the way but no one likes to be controlled and lorded over.....and a partner who was of an indentured servant if anything. I remember my mother telling me years after my father had died ( obviously still troubled )...that my father in some inane situation about the household told her that he "could hire someone for $5.00 an hour to do what she did around the house." How's that grab you? I couldn't believe it when she told me this thinking.....".wow, such a way with words......and what a great way to motivate someone to do something better or different. Unbelievable.

That's a Narcissist for you....thinking and seeing things only from one perspective without any regard or real feelings for how this might effect the other person.

But there's more to this than that. At the time my mother had begun to assert herself ( finally)...but she only had one card to play...being the victim which meant lots of rationalizing, not looking at reality and manipulation. She became the perfect conduit for this kind of statement and even in defense of my father.....many times brought this onto herself. My father's comment was intentionally hurtful without question, but in context to what was really happening.....my mother was beginning to step "out of line" so to speak...or out of character becoming more assertive....but she was still doing it like a victim which only insited my father to step up his control ( out of fear of losing it) with more NPD behavior.

In other words....my mom was attempting the "top from the bottom" weird messed up version of trying to be assertive but she was operating within the same messed up parameters that she/they had always been in. A different version of the same dysfunction. I mentioned "compromising within dysfunction" in another unrelated post and this is a good example of that. She was upsetting the apple cart and trying to establish a new power dynamic in the household and to a certain degree she did. But when the dust settles it's just taking the same dysfunctional components and reshuffling the deck.......which really didn't end up being a whole lot better in most regards.

Bottom line here and in part what I was trying to say to you. My experience with my father was that he was never going to change.... period. I tried to get from him something that he didn't have to give...period. No amount of therapy, talking, discussing, alternatives, effort by my mother or anyone else for that matter was going to change this ever......period. Any attempt to try and change or disrupt his NPD needs or cut off the "food" supply for his NPD was going to b met with a very predictable and unwelcome outcome for anyone attempting to do this. Which is the case of the $5.00 an hour comment and the reason for him saying this. It's a counter response directed at the source of the threat not at a person......more like chattel I think.

The circle remains unbroken but in this case it's not ( in reference to the circle) ....one you want to be in.

The only way you can survive and thrive successfully while still being in a relationship with a Narcissist is to step outside the circle completely and not be a part of it. Which means you cannot play into or that's what you are doing.

But when you do this one of only two things will happen (depending on the individual of course).

A) The NPD will get very angry! And then go through every gyration of trying to control you that they can. Raging, nice, valuing, devaluing....trying to find anything that will work.....for the moment only. It's just to get you to stop and go back to before. And then more anger and more gyrations. Repeatedly. Like a caged animal that keeps pacing the fence line to see if they can find an loop hole or opening to escape. It's relentless and tireless on their part until something happens in their favor that will get you to stop. And then it will immediately go back to the same routine and you capitulate.

B) All the above but they find someone else to get their needs met ie: cheat, move out.....or both.

There is a third option and that is that they actually change. I can't speak to this because it's not my experience but a person wit NPD is not evil or even necessarily a bad person. My father in almost every way was a very good man with a host of great qualities.

Miserable might be a better description and they are definitely not having any fun being this way....but then again, neither are you.

Hope this helps?

I'm following you now, J

Submitted by Standing on Thu, 10/02/2014 - 11:01

I wrote a long response and then accidentally deleted it.

Don't have the energy to rehash.

Thank you so much for your efforts at clarity! I really appreciate you.

You nailed it. I've been there before and here I am again, ready to step outside that circle. It's the only sane option. Thank you, thank you!!!

Awesome!

Submitted by kellyj on Thu, 10/02/2014 - 11:21

ditto

J, about getting out of that circle...

Submitted by Standing on Thu, 10/02/2014 - 11:41

Do you see any way of stepping outside of a narcissistic marriage other than separation?

In many ways, your dad was a great guy and my mother was a dutiful, responsible, efficient homemaker.

Being honest here... my husband has never hit me and has (pretty much) always had some sort of job, but I would not describe him as a great guy, so much as a damaged individual. He would be an interesting guy to have as a distant neighbor, long as you didn't lend him your tools or ask for his help with a project. You may get to witness some intriguing science experiments in his garage, stuff like that. Umm... I feel alot of compassion for him and it is difficult for me to speak of him in these terms, but I am not exaggerating. He can be creative, thoughtful (on occasion) about picking up something for me at the store. In the areas where I am able to meet him, we can appear to connect, but this is rare. He does not connect with me at all.

So here's the thing that gave me a burst to write some more this morning. Last night, he told me that he will not look at the traits of npd, but he is willing to learn what to say to me that won't set me off. (Sounds like this is my problem again.) He said that he just needs to "put on a new game". That floored me. What do you think?

Tough Question Standing

Submitted by kellyj on Thu, 10/02/2014 - 16:40

I think everyone lies somewhere on a continuum ( a sliding scale?) including us ADHD'ers for example. It's hard to nail someone down to any particular spot on the scale, and without being an expert on this subject ( which I'm not ) I'd feel badly if I thought you might be swayed by anything I would have to say.....as it could be wrong?

I do have a very close friend of mine who is a fighter pilot in the airforce (retired now). He is the nicest and most likable guy you'd ever want to meet. And he's very benevolent. He can make you feel like you are very special when around him and is extremely considerate.

But....I found out through his ex-wife that he scored high in NPD when they had gone to marriage counseling. The breaking point in their relationship came when the councilor told her that she had only one of two choices : Stay with him and give up yourself and lose ever having the chance to be who you want to be in order to be married to him....or.....leave and become who you are and have the chance to be who you want to be from here on out.

I remember thinking...."Wow, that was harsh? " I remember being surprised that a marriage councilor would ever say such a thing?

And also the fact that he was one of my best friends I felt a little weird that she was talking to me about this. But after she started to describe the kinds of things she was experiencing with my friend I suddenly realized that she was right. I remembered many times when my friend had something similar with me but at the same time. I wasn't married to him. I did live with him for a while so I did know the things she was saying. I also realized that me....being from my situation...that I had not really noticed these things as red flags probably because I had become so used to this kind of behavior that it didn't register with me like it should. I know now that this was the case.

I'm still very good friends with him but I can see this in him every time we're together. I used to joke or give him a bad time about this when I didn't realize what I was seeing. Now I simply don't put myself in a position where he can do what he does with in respect to the things that are inconsiderate and it works out fine. It's more of an annoyance more than anything with him.

I also remember my therapist's answer to me once when I asked "how does someone get this way?" At the time what I remember ( he probably said more but this is what stuck in my head)...That it appears as either: a maladjusted sense that you are not being treated the way you want to be treated ( the past I'm thinking )and deserve to be treated special or deserve more from this perspective.......or you were raised or told that you are extremely special and it becomes a maladjusted feeling that you are....so you deserve special treatment that somehow supersedes everyone else ( entitlement ).

I'm para- phrasing here in my own words but I think you can get the drift?

So in reference to what I just said....my friend would fit the second scenario and my father would fit the first. They are completely different from one another and if I had to choose between the two I'd might pick door number 2. Only because my friend as I said.....is great to be around. Never seen him ( or heard of him) losing his temper....raging or getting overtly angry. He's extremely self confident, capable and as I said...very benevolent. You never have to worry about things when he's around because he always takes charge. However.....even though he's generous and giving to a fault. He's also very controlling and you are always feel like you are riding on his coat tales instead of sitting side by side with him.

In other words....he is a very generous, giving and benevolent Narcissist but at the end of the day.....he pretty much fits the profile and you are always going to get hit with feeling like you were just there for him instead of him sharing with you. That's the part where he is consistent and never changing and I've never seen him waver from this for even an inch.

So...in light of what I just said and the part you said, " In the areas where I am able to meet him, we can appear to connect, but this is rare. He does not connect with me at all." that's the part that's missing. It's the part that I tried to get with my father and never did because it wasn't there. Like trying to catch fish in an empty pond.....there you are waiting patiently thinking you are going to get a bite in a pond where there aren't any fish. But you keep trying because you believe that there might be one there anyway. So you just keep trying and waiting but it ain't ever going to happen.....

Unless someone comes along in the night and stocks the pond with fish??

Maybe...... but unlikely.

That's my best answer for you.

I would count on your situation to be exactly the same as it has in the past and make your decision based on that. That would be a safer bet based on what you said and the NPD than thinking he will change. That's what I've been told ( and read )....and that's my own personal experience too.

I'd hate to be wrong though in your husbands case but sounds like you are pretty familiar (and pretty sure) that the councilor was correct in the assessment.

J, you are a blessing, thank you

Submitted by Standing on Thu, 10/02/2014 - 17:02

I so appreciate your thoughtful response.

Initial thoughts: Door #2 with a side of depression

and

I caught a dink. Stormy day here and he knows I dislike severe weather. I'm off work and did not have to battle over that either (qualifies as a walleye) but back to the dink...

he texted me to ask how I'm doing, in the midst of the 40 mph winds. That was thoughtful. Maybe I'd better mount it on the wall ;)

Your answer is perfect, J. I could not possibly ask for anything more. In his mind's eye, he is like your friend, the retired pilot... and like him, there was excessive praise = entitlement. Unlike him, there is also add.

You have given me so much to consider! I will not rush to judgment. Oddly enough, I like the idea of counting on things to stay the same and making my decision based on that. It is a strange relief. That's not to say it would be okay for everything to stay the same, but... I do think that I got a bit caught up by the great NPD bogeyman. Thank you for bringing me back down to earth. I do feel better and again, I really appreciate your sharing of your experience and insight. I've intentionally avoided all the hype that's out there on the web on the topic, but it is still a pretty big pill to swallow.

Good evening to you!!

Grass is Greener Syndrome Standing

Submitted by kellyj on Fri, 10/03/2014 - 11:29

I always have to think about that too......avoiding this kind of thinking. It starts to become a rationalization as well as becoming the prosecution, judge and jury all into it's self.

I wanted to add ( back to my story about my friend)...that his ex-wife....ended up dragging them through one of the longest divorces I've ever seen. She went for the juggler vein and also used visitation rights for their son as leverage for money and his military pension (they had not met before he was already in the military.)

At first I sympathized with her situation ( going back to that part of my story ) but she really lost credibility with me after a while in that it appeared that she took an unfair and rather vindictive stance toward my friend over a long, long period of time, I'd say that really had nothing to do with my friend and was all her........mean spirited and revengeful.

The thing is that even though my friend does what he does in respect to NPD.......she also picked him because he was this way. I think she had discovered a part of herself that she didn't realize existed ( after she was married to him) which in many respects came directly from him. Like I said, he has the ability to make you feel very special while you are with him. This is a very special talent that not everyone has. And even if it comes from being NPD.....it's hard to argue that this is a bad quality and it's one she needed when they first met.

Later on she began to generate this feeling for herself and no longer needed him for it I think. So now she no longer has use for this wonderful quality as is because she needed it before and no longer found it's value the same as she use to.....now what's left? All the negative things? It's easy to get swept up in your own feelings and start doing the grass is greener thing........meanwhile, the other person is just doing what they do.......what they've always done.......the change is you not them in this case. What was good is now bad?

I have to share my own experience with this kind of thing with my ex wife. We are still friends and on good terms. But there was a time in our relationship when she said that I had changed. I told her that I was the same as I had always been?? This was very troubling to me and created a lot of self doubt and insecurity in me because she began treating me differently and shutting me out. Take that back.....this brought out the self doubt and insecurity that already existed in me but it did become a self-full filling prophecy for her.

What was really happening? She saw what she wanted to see in me and was blind to the rest....love is blind? I think so but this takes that to a whole different level. I was not diagnosed with ADHD at the time ( not until after we were divorced)....but, the things that she began to see were fundamentally all the things that the non spouses here in this forum see.....the negative aspects of being with someone with ADHD. What changed was not me. I've been this way all my life (the ADHD parts). She overlooked these parts at first in favor of something else she needed me to be ( for her )....but when she no longer needed these parts...they became invisible or maybe more transparent leaving what was left. Suddenly she see's the ADHD and now I've changed? What changed more in this case was her and then a change in me followed (self doubt, insecurity, depression, anger) .

This is not blaming her or saying anyone is ultimately responsible for wrong doing. What it is saying is that as a person's perception changes....everything around them appears different. The change is in you not everything around you.

And since no one knew at the time about my ADHD, I had very little options or tools to use to do anything about it let alone trying to understand what to do about it....which left me feeling pretty helpless.

I'm light years ahead of this now in respects to my ADHD but at the end of the day.....I still have it and always will.

What's interesting about my situation is that with my new wife....i went in ( and so did she) knowing all of this but yet.........I still run into many of the same scenarios with her as I did back then with my ex-wife. You'd think that this might be different but I found in many ways it's not......except for the self doubt, insecurity and depression part in me. I still get angry at times when confronted with this stuff and that's the one that brought me here. I don't have anger issues in the classic sense...but I do have trouble controlling it in some very specific occasions. Not often but once is already too many times for me. This is the one area that is completely unacceptable ( for me) and I do expect 100% compliance for myself in this one ADHD related area this is true.

Anyway......in most respects I've found that even though my wife knew about my ADHD in advance....it still didn't make that much of a difference compared to my ex-wife in terms of the issues it creates. What's different is me and the changes I've made in dealing with it....but the ADHD and how other people respond or react to it have stayed relatively the same.

I also wanted to bring this up because of the "feeling jipped" or "being sold a bill of goods" statements I read here from the non spouses in the this forum in regards to the spouses and having to deal with ADHD. I can see where this comes from but based on what I just said (about my wife) even knowing about my ADHD and me being very upfront in advance including all the advancements I've made and successes that I have had managing it.......I still hear the same complaints and run into the same issues at times with her.

It appears at least anecdotally........ that the argument or complaint that nons make about feeling "jipped" doesn't hold water.

I think it all comes from a change in perspective and you can do things to change that for yourself.

I'm glad what I've said helped you as much as it has been for me to be able to articulate this stuff. Part of why I do this is that it is very therapeutic for me as well.....putting things into words.

I had to mention words here at the very least since we've successfully hijacked this thread! lol

Greener grass...

Submitted by Standing on Fri, 10/03/2014 - 10:28

… Atop the septic tank J

I miss Erma Bombeck.

I do see the “I was jipped” at work in your friend’s ex wife’s determination to get her piece of what she (maybe) expected would have been hers to share (if only he had been her knight in shining armor). She may have been operating from a deeply wounded position of pain and disappointment, aggressive counsel, a narcissistic bent, who knows

“I was jipped” is not a feeling I’ve ever focused upon, myself. My counselor might say that’s because I never felt that I deserved much… but I think there’s more to it than that. Fear has been so strong throughout my life that I have never progressed far beyond it. Flight was my go-to reaction. What I have often felt is conned, manipulated, and used, so when I hear that “jipped” statement here in the forum, I suspect that the perpetrator may be more of a narcissist who put on a show, at first, and then once the deal was sealed, moved straight on to the devaluing and discarding.

Feeling cheated could arise from being set up and swindled by a grifter. Or it could come from a person who views human interactions as a purchase or exchange of items of value. I scratched your back and you fell asleep. I was jipped. I cooked you a 5 course meal and you didn’t wash the dishes. I raised your four kids and did all the housework and you don’t love me the way I need to be loved.

When a person does not know that she is valuable and loveable and worthy of respectful treatment because of who she is, instead of for what she does… she might feel cheated regularly?

My husband offered me what I needed for the first year or two (along with a lot of fertile ground for me to work with my servant skills J) You’re absolutely correct that it’s a very special talent and I felt blessed many times by his ability to help me lighten up and not sweat the small stuff all the time. It’s true that the differences which bring us together can become the very things that drive us apart. I could write pages about the process, but the main thing was – the add and npd combined did not let him see me as a person in my own right. And he did change, when he got a taste of power and money and influence in his business. He changed a lot… the spark on that underlying npd was ignited, big time… and the fuel that fed it this past spring was my obstinate anger along with my newfound critical, correcting, self-righteous voice, as I marched around announcing that I’m not gonna take this anymore. We both changed and the balance didn’t shift, it exploded.

The issues will always be there, J. What’s different in you now is that can prevent them from being fertilized and bearing nasty fruit. I don’t think it would be natural or healthy for anyone to stop responding or reacting to some of the add behaviors. That’s not to say that each and everyone one needs to be pointed out, annotated, and addressed, but.. I can visualize something like a regular touch-base meeting to compare notes and discuss as equals. Too often, I have put on my counselor hat and sat up a bit higher than my husband in such discussions. In my defense, he sometimes puts me into that position (me being the Rock and all :P) I need to not fall into that trap, because it often seems that’s his add setting me up, albeit subconsciously, for a fight. Or it’s an impulse on his part, because he thinks it makes him sound humble and genuine to ask… then the answers trigger the other side of him. That’s more like it. Hence my previous shut-downs and total lack of effort toward communication with him, which only served to distance us further. Such a vicious cycle.

I’ll give your post more thought, J. It bears a lot of consideration! Like you, it helps me to write down thoughts … very therapeutic! Good day to you!

P.S. I have a hunch our friend c ur self does not mind being hijacked :D

There's a Lot of Similarities.......

Submitted by kellyj on Fri, 10/03/2014 - 13:19

in our personal experiences namely......My counselor might say that’s because I never felt that I deserved much… but I think there’s more to it than that. Fear has been so strong throughout my life that I have never progressed far beyond it. Flight was my go-to reaction. What I have often felt is conned, manipulated, and used, so when I hear that “jipped” statement here in the forum, I suspect that the perpetrator may be more of a narcissist who put on a show, at first, and then once the deal was sealed, moved straight on to the devaluing and discarding.

I see and feel much of the same ( or used to for sure). If you were raised by someone who was a Narcissist ( or other important person in your life) that's exactly what they taught you even though you didn't realize it.....the part about not feeling like you deserved much. Not intentionally but that's what they do or at least the by-product as it pertains to you. I see this so clearly in myself all the time even now in bits and pieces.

And flight being your only option....OMG yes. Back then, it was! Not so much when your an adult but first you have to realize this fact and then learn what you didn't learn then.

And fear is the death knell to moving forward. It's been my only saving grace....the ability to overcome and conquer fear. Not saying that I didn't have it.......I just found ways to beat it in many respects. That being said, it was always there....again, at the hands of a NPD who used it as a means of control. This is taught to you but it can be un-taught to.

And yes.....a big red flag for me is the barter system in relationships.....keeping track of who gets what and how much one person does for another and so on......

There's a real easy test for this......do something for someone and expect nothing in return. If you can't do this then there's a problem. A gift or giving in a real "clean" , no strings attached way should never have any regret or negative feelings associated with it.....there should also be no book keeping system involved either.

That's not saying that if things are totally lop sided that you aren't going to feel this way after a while but speaking for myself.....I find that I'll start out this way and continue to do it until I get drawn into this kind of thinking by someone who is operating this way as a rule.......that's a perfect example of stepping outside the circle. If you aren't that way....don't become that or be that way yourself and start making it a competition even IF they are.

That's exactly where you start feeling like you were "conned" instead of "jipped" You feel like people are supposed to NOT do these things because you don't yourself. Unfortunately....I've learned the hard way that this is not the case.

But...that means you have to learn how to see it and avoid it in the first place.

You are also right on the money when you said, "What’s different in you now is that can prevent them from being fertilized and bearing nasty fruit. I don’t think it would be natural or healthy for anyone to stop responding or reacting to some of the add behaviors. " Sometimes you have to start over if something is so broken that fixing it will never yield good results and take a disproportionate chunk out of your life to do so.....in a negative way.

I can't say that I designed my situation entirely on my own.....better to admit that I had much less control over it than it happening to me whether I liked it or not. But there is opportunity within it as well as some advantages which you so poignantly brought to light. That's why I can't say yes or no to anyone asking me what to do....leave or stay. I see value in both but I didn't necessarily choose this by design. I will say I'm happier because of where I am now though but it has a lot to do with the "not fertilizing" future nasty fruit. Even better......I'm trying to spray Round Up anywhere I even predict a sprout. This gives me a fighting chance that I didn't have before. I realize for most people here....they are struggling not to lose their marriage in the first place which is a different scenario.

The only thing I will say to that based solely on myself.......I stayed unhappily married because of my promise to God in the Christian sense ( and to myself from that basis ) and for no other reason after a while. This was a mistake and I think it can become a prison in hell instead of a foundation for a fulfilling marriage.

Just my two bits.

prisons in hell

Submitted by Standing on Sat, 10/04/2014 - 23:47

J, i remember a sermon about the devil's sin, which got him cast down from the heavenlies. It was not because he was so bad. It was because he wanted to be good - without God. I doubt whether i can connect the dots on this in my current state of insufficient sleep, so i'll cut to the end: Somehow, last night it hit me, how vital it is to admit powerless-ness. (I listened to an excellent program about Trauma Bonds.) So, okay, obviously i cannot change or, in this case, even impact my spouse. He is SO sealed within his own reality. So i gave up and i told him so, and all anger (along with much of the fear and hurt) are gone. I admitted that i am powerless to change the fact that he lives in an alternate dimension and will not allow someone as close as a spouse to live in the real world. He simply will not allow it. The prison walls came tumbling down for me, all at once. People suffering from trauma bonds often feel worse for the one who is creating so much pain and suffering than they do for themselves. It's twisted and warped. I tied myself in knots to be seen by this man. Now i get it -- he's blind and if i follow too closely, he'll lead me off the cliff. Who am i to think that preserving a non-marriage is within my scope? I let my own fear and insecurity build the walls. I almost let my pride burn me alive inside. Yep, i most definitely, with the utmost respect for my husband's right to live his life as he chooses, humbly refuse to crash to my doom behind him.

Standing.....a Passing Thought About Your Question

Submitted by kellyj on Fri, 10/03/2014 - 12:08

Do you see any way of stepping outside of a narcissistic marriage other than separation?

I had to think about this a little but a thought did come to mind. The answer is yes. But I would re-word the question differently. I would change "narcissist marriage" to simply being in a marriage "with a Narcissist". I know this sounds like semantics but it is qualitatively different. I'll try to explain.

My wife and I just watched ( for the 3rd or 4th time ) the movie "Big Fat Greek Wedding" . In it, there is quote I love in that the wife of one of the main characters says, "the man is the HEAD of the household, but the woman is the neck that moves the head from side to side." So funny but yet true in many respects. lol

The father in this movie is such a loveable but yet undeniable Narcissist in many respects......."how could she do this to me!!!" when he's referring to his daughter who meets a non-Greek man and falls in love with him. Would you call this cultural Narcissism? I don't know?

My point is that I think there are plenty of marriages that work even if one person is a Narcissist......and both people are relatively satisfied. It might be rare but I think it's possible. I also think this is dependent on the person with the Narcissist and how they manage and deal with the situation (in healthy ways).

I also think first....that they both have to want to be together in the first place (back to looking for reasons or blaming as a form of rationalizing your own discontent ).

But taking the quote from the movie.....I think that there are ways to manipulate a Narcissist and bend them so to speak even if you can't change them (or they won't change). We both now how consistent and predictable they can be but this can be used ( in a loving way) to move them from "side to side" like the quote was saying. Simply put......they are easy to manipulate in many directions if you want to. The thing that was mentioned in the Christian program about seeing and taking care of the "hurt little child" I think falls short in this aspect. Sounds more like "holding some ones hand?"

I think a more direct strategized approach is needed with a Narcissist and using a little manipulation of the facts gives you some needed control that you might not already have. I think it takes a special person to do this naturally ( strong willed and immovable self conviction?) but I think it can be learned as well even if it's not by nature.

I do believe that if NPD itself is the only issue there are ways around it if you find that everything else about this person is admirable and you want to be with them other than that. No one likes to be controlled but at the same time.....if the NPD is getting the feeling that they are in control and at the same time you have some of your own and some skills in this department.....I believe it can work.

Then again.....there are different version of NPD and some I believe are simply impossible and unacceptable to be around.....also the level of insecurity and just "how hurt" that little child is inside. Not much you can do about that...or would want to have to be the one to try.

I would personally go nuts but I have already been down that road before......not much patience left in me to do this and by nature....I'm not this way to begin with but I am learning how to do it when I need to. It still feels very uncomfortable but I know that in this case.....that uncomfortable feeling is a red flag that I'm on the right track.

More flies with honey

Submitted by Standing on Fri, 10/03/2014 - 14:15

I'm with you, J. Doesn't come naturally to me, either. I tend to be quite blunt and don't care for games. I've actually been told by colleagues in the past that I need to learn to "play the game".

Catching up on work today and will have to come back later to respond to most of your last couple posts, you have given me a realization with your thought about the difference between narc marriage and marriage to a narc. Being raised by someone with similar attitudes and thought processes, and then being faced with the same challenges again in marriage, what do you suppose can happen? Especially when one spouse is already worn and frazzled from dealing with an overabundance of responsibility, due to add? The worn and frazzled one can get to acting pretty darn narcissistic! Whew, it's almost like the stuff is contagious! Anyway, more on that later, but I wanted to jot it down here before it escaped :)

Just reading J's posts and thinking this same thing....

Submitted by c ur self on Fri, 10/03/2014 - 23:23

(Especially when one spouse is already worn and frazzled from dealing with an overabundance of responsibility, due to add? The worn and frazzled one can get to acting pretty darn narcissistic! Whew, it's almost like the stuff is contagious! )

But, we all should guard against this...This is just another form of act and react...This is feeding ground for bad things to happen in people's minds and emotions right here!...Just because some spouses are forced to take on a heavy load of responsibility due to not getting any help...Does not give the more assertive, more responsible, more capable, what ever the true reason for the difference, a license to look on their mate as inferior. Now I can just hear some of you saying " Well what the H are we suppose to do, Kill our selves for this person...lol....Not at all you deal with it, calmly, and wisely. Because you do not do yourself, them, the relationship or any innocent bystanders (children etc) any good if anger, the desire control or make demands surface which is usually the knee jerk reactions to this feeling of being used and abused.

Contageous Is Such a Great Descriptive Word

Submitted by kellyj on Sat, 10/04/2014 - 05:08

Pathogen comes to mind......

and pathological.

Pathological patterns of behavior.

Patterns of consistent behavior.

Consistent and constant behavior

Constant and persistent behavior

Persistent and relentless behavior

I love words......we use them all the time but don't pause long enough to actually hear or maybe even understand their meanings. We just string them all together into a sentence and figure other people will understand what we really we really intend for them to understand.....but usually don't outside of, " will you please pass the mash potato's."

I could keep going but I think all of these terms might be used to describe the things we're talking about.....and contagious is a good way to describe what I was mentioning about what happens when you are exposed to this kind of behavior for too long. it begins to rub off.

Actually, what c ur self was talking about in "reacting" to it. This is what I'm beginning to see in myself more and more almost on a daily basis. I see how susceptible I am to other peoples reactions but especially my wife.

I could easily state that one of the big issues in my marriage is my wife's problem with controlling her reactions. She'll admit the same about herself and knows she has issues with being "over-reactive." Touchy, over sensitive, easily disturbed, easily alarmed, panicky........easily or quickly reacts at the slightest variation or disruption to her psyche.....about anything. I see this in her everyday and much of the time it appears as anger or irritation.

I think it is really more irritation than anger but these two are difficult for me to differentiate........everything from my perspective (and minds eye) that involves any number of unhappy facial expressions.....raised or negative tone of voice .... tense, alarmed or over animated physical expression of movement.......and a sense of negative energy for lack of better description.

It's all anger to me..........

But I'm now beginning to see where this is wrong. Even from the descriptions that I just used their could many emotions and internal feelings going on inside her when she outwardly displays these physical signs and I begun to pay attention enough to connect them to something else and irritation would be a better word to use. I see her become irritated at the smallest things ( on my scale) and she does admit this but.....a better way of describing irritation in this case would be a negative or uncomfortable reaction to something......a negative experience or unpleasant feeling. That I have come to learn is much closer to the truth than simply calling it anger.

And this is where it starts to go wrong on my end.

I see, feel and experience only one thing from her when this happens and that is anger. And many times I respond in kind. ( not losing my temper but the more innocuous but never the less "seed" for it I believe.) This is what I've been working so hard to eliminate from our interactions and until recently I hadn't realized just how programmed my response to anger really is.

But it's been the wrong response in terms of my ability to differentiate what I am seeing......how I interpret it.

Calling it irritation may not mean anything different to you or someone else but for me.....it makes a world of difference.

I do know where and how I developed this response and I do believe I caught it ( back to contagious ) from the constant, consistent, persistent and relentless patterns of pathological behavior that I was exposed to by living with a Narcissist.

I understand exactly what you mean.

It's how I developed this response but that part is all about me.... it has nothing to do with my wife no matter how reactionary she is. She may never be able to control her outward responses and I see this in her in response to so many other things that don't pertain to me (and she admits it when this happens ) that I now see that it's a reaction or irritation to a feeling that she is experiencing.

It's not personal....but neither is my response to anger. It programming mixed with ADHD. That's all.

Now that I see this better I feel confident that I can nip it in the bud and so far ( as of late) it appears to be working. I can see it so I can do something about it where before I was blind to these facts.

It helps to see. lol

I have more to add but it's late.

J, Another word - Anaerobic

Submitted by Standing on Sun, 10/05/2014 - 10:57

I enjoy words, too!

Reading your reply about contagions and pathogens, I remembered something: An Anaerobic organism does not require oxygen to live and grow.

Years ago, I had a terrible infection, caused by one of these anaerobic bacteria. It was impervious to annhilation by antibiotics, because it was sealed into a closed environment.

The parallels to living with narcissism are startling. I don't even want to begin a beautiful Sunday by analyzing them. The bottom line was - after weeks of living with a tube inserted to drain the vile stuff, I required major surgery for the removal of the sealed environment which had made me sick unto death with fever and was slowly killing me.

For ten years, I've metaphorically carried around a sac of green mess, attached to my body. When the goo-bag would fill, I'd open the stopper at the bottom and drain the repulsive stuff down the toilet, only to have it fill again, because none of the antibiotics were reaching their target.

I have no doubt that many of us here feel this way. Some will be helped by trying a new antibiotic. Others will require major surgery. If I had told the surgeon - no, I will not let you operate, I will continue to try new treatments to deal with this problem, I would have died. It is so vital to know what is beneath and behind the symptoms! I think that the living in an alternate reality is the biggest tip-off. "There is nothing wrong with me; you're the one who needs her head examined."

Toxic Would Be Another Good Word Standing

Submitted by kellyj on Sun, 10/05/2014 - 12:55

I wanted to share some of my new discoveries and a new hypothesis of mine here on this forum and in this thread but before I do I wanted to ask you what your options are? I believe I can say I know how you feel and I also know that if I'm right ( in how this affecting you) you may not have a lot of them to pick from?

I also wanted to thank you, c ur self and so exhausted for being part of this for me. I should probably write my thinking in a separate topic because I feel it's worth sharing.....at least in the hope that someone who's looking for an answer within it might find it there easier that way instead of finding it buried inside this thread. There really is a lot here and I know I've been focused on it as it has given me a perspective that I needed to solve at least one mystery that has been bugging me for a while.

I wanted to tell you ( and c ur self and Liz ) at least how I arrived at this thinking which you were a part of....and why I think I know how you feel which are related.

My new hypothesis...... ( purely unscientific and anecdotal based on me ) may help answer the question of why people with ADHD can be so different from one another.

So here's my new currently thinking;

I think ADHD could be considered as a mechanism inside of a vehicle...in the literal sense, like the engine of a car and the car being the vehicle. And like a car, the vehicle is a mechanical devise meant to serve as a means to get you to one place or another. In this picture.....everyone is born with a car and with it comes the engine that propels it forward...maybe the transmission too? the gears that allow the engine to run at a desired optimum range so you can climb hills or pull loads and not overload the engine and keep it running in it's preferred horse power range.

So in this scenario ADHD would be the engine and transmission of your car. Inside the car is you ( the thinking sentient being).

Along your trip......you pick up passengers and baggage. In the case of some of these maladjusted issues we've been discussing like Narcissism......these passengers are more like car-jackers in that they kick you into the back seat and take you hostage while also taking over control of the vehicle.....from the drivers seat. The ADHD is just the engine and the tranny and they have control over them meanwhile ( maybe unwittingly or unconscious of this fact ).....you the sentient being is being taken for a ride while sitting in the back seat.

So here's my new thinking about all of this using my analogy as a model. These other issues what ever they may be.....predominate the ADHD. They have more to do with how that person is defined than the ADHD itslef...but the ADHD does play a definite role in that it also influences and limits them ( like the car engine and transmission ) by the abilities and limitations in that engines given potential output. But these issues have more to do with a person personality and behavior than the ADHD itself which is why we (ADHD'ers) can appear so different from one another. The common ADHD symptoms still appears but the source and direction can be from 360 degrees from one another. very differently.

I came to this when I realized as I was writing to you, Liz and c ur self....that I kept relating more to you ( the non spouses ) more often than not in so many ways?? Also...I keep saying that the things I hear don't sound like me??? Yet I still have the symptoms but they appear to come our differently including...my ability to change them and do things about them....thinking.....it feels like I'm driving my car and have control over the engine and transmission ( given all their limitations and abilities) and have learned how to get the most horse power out of the combination as I can and get down the road in a reasonable manner?

The common thread is Narcissism on the receiving end and a lot of co-dependent behavior and coping mechanisms on our end. These appear to be the culprits driving my(our) cars so to speak which is why I relate to it....or at least use to in my case as well as a number of others too I'm sure. But....I would say that's why my therapist has been less focused on my ADHD in the past as he was getting me up front in the drivers seat first.

Anyway.....lots of assumptions and cosmic gas swirling around but they are beginning to form planets and forming orbits in my head.

This may be all way too out there for anyone trying to follow so I apologize if this sounds strange and makes no sense. it's importnat that it does for me so I can continue to broaden my perspective of myself and become more aware.

More self aware= better driving skills. lol

J, I've been referred to an attorney

Submitted by Standing on Sun, 10/05/2014 - 17:44

by my counselor. I'll see what he recommends as the best option for proceeding, but my thought is to file for legal separation, as my counselor recommended. I've theorized alot in my own mind about how my husband may or may nor react, but really-- that's a moot point. He has refused to even look at npd info, as the counselor instructed, so that we could get on the same page about this intellectually, at least. He flat out said, No, I won't. He likes himself just as he is and does not want to change.

Your line of thought about personality and add and personality disorders has me thinking. If add is a brain issue and narcissism is a disorder to the personality, then I guess it follows that narcissism trumps add. Maybe a person's ability to intellectually assimilate knowledge about self is also a matter of more or less cognitive impairment? But then I really am not sure which comes first, the personality disorder or the add, or maybe they are so intimately inter-twined that it's impossible to sort. And I am not sure whether any of the above makes sense. Sorry, J, apparently I am too foggy to grasp. I hope that you'll continue to talk through it, because you always seem to come through to the other side quite well!

As I recall, you are in your early 50s? I get the impression that - besides being extremely intelligent, you are also emotionally mature/your age. That didn't just happen, you know? I have to think that, at some point, you made the deliberate choice to not be stunted by all that you've had to process. Maybe if you look at what precipitated that choice, you'll have more info on why others with add/adhd do not. Are you all simply nicer people or didn't have as many hardships or found God or what? Or is it simply that you are not personality disordered, but many of the folks with family who appear here on this forum, are? I don't know. Looking forward to reading your next installment.

Quick Response....

Submitted by kellyj on Sun, 10/05/2014 - 23:54

I'll fill in more details later......thanks for the vote of confidence. I'll be 57 next month. In many ways I split the program ( so to speak ) at an early age. Why.....I don't really know? Survival I think. I've always been a positive /optimist too. Again...why? Who knows. I did say that my family had their strong suits too and I took advantage of those as well. I'm the "dumb one" in the family if that gives you a clue......but apparently smarter in emotional intelligence I think. I was just going through some saved papers of my moms since she passed this year after suffering from Alzeimers for many years).....and ran across some old homework of hers from UCLA in 1939. She was a career homemaker so I didn't hear about too many things from her past concerning her education but.......in the home work was some advanced Calculus, Trig and Geothermal Geology tests scores and she had straight A's in everything I saw. Thinking..." way to go Mom!?" I never realized she was that gifted in math and science. Also thinking this was something for a woman who grew up in a rural isolated part of Southern California in the 20's and 30's? Too bad she didn't graduate.....world war II and meeting my father got in the way. In many ways I think she was much smarter ( than my father )....even though she didn't show this side of herself much of the time eve though I would see it glimpses occasionally......Maybe for good reason too, know what I mean? I'd like to think that some of that analytical/critical thinking rubbed off on me.....maybe?

I'll come back later...good night.

Narcissism/Toxic

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Sun, 10/05/2014 - 23:48

I love the engine/car analogy. Clearly spelled out. Great!!

I have never heard anything specific about this narcissism in any dealings with my own spouse. One counselor told him his behavior was that of a 'dry drunk.' Sorta ironic as I grew up in an alcoholic home. In my early 20s, a friend took me to my first Al-Anon meeting, and I still attend to this day. I am so pleased for my Dad that he found his sobriety in 1991.

When we worked with one counselor, my husband reported to me that he was told by the counselor that I was "the most punishing wife they had ever encountered." When I communicated with the counselor, what I was told by them was nothing like the statement my spouse has told me.

Just today, my spouse 'shared' some information that he was informed that by trying to deal with all the issue I have, it would take a long time and be a huge undertaking. His best bet is to just "let it go." My own sensibility sees that as pretty much askew. I just have no desire anymore to get clarifications on his interpretations. They lead him to believe he has their empathy as he is married to a loony tune. While I know this to be untrue, my own brain screams with, "How can this be possible?" We are paying good money for him to be acquiring this sort of attitude?!?!? Not what I had hoped the outcome would be.

I know my spouse's ADHD filter takes statements that I make, and by the time they reach his brain, they are twisted into a horrible attack on him. How that happens, I do not know.

He insists he does not need counseling. He has no problems. Our communications gets so messed up because I refuse to go to counseling, and he just doesn't know how to deal with that.

It really takes me more work that I like to admit to not let his accusations pick pick pick at my own sense of normalcy.

I find it just so amazing that one by one by one, he slowly checks people off his "friend list." He is so lonely. He just cannot understand why there are so many people with so many problems.

He is good at spinning this stuff. I want to learn how to not allow myself to get so dizzy with all.

Liz

Awesome!

Submitted by c ur self on Mon, 10/06/2014 - 11:44

This is a great analogy! This fits us all, regardless of how our mind's work...Because we have all picked up enough passenger's and their baggage, that it insure's hardship for us to get back under the wheel, and recognize how our engine needs tuned for optimal performance on the hwy of responsibility...

Those passenger's we picked up, (or when we were the passenger) we did it for fellowship, and to love and be loved. Their baggage was hid in many cases from an innocent and unsuspecting heart and mind....And we had no idea so much of their baggage would attach itself to us:(

All You Can Do......C Ur Self

Submitted by kellyj on Tue, 10/07/2014 - 11:42

is unpack your own baggage and separate the wheat from the chaff. That's true for everyone........and in keeping with the things that are being discussed here in this thread........sometimes you have a situation where the person you are with is just not willing to do that yet...or maybe at all in some cases. Standing and I have been relating about NPD which appears to be a common experience between the two of us but it's real easy to start looking for a "boogy man" in the closet every time you see a person that might be just simply stuck. Stuck meaning....someone who hasn't sorted out their baggage yet or maybe simply doesn't want to because it's not something that any of us really looks forward in doing. For me it a rose out of need......and need came in stages in it's own time.....as needed. lol

I also think what Standing speculated a couple posts ago to me was correct.....adversity is a great motivator too.......there really is a "silver lining" sometimes and it really is "darkest before the dawn" before that can happen. I also think you have to overcome fear like you were saying which might be the biggest factor in the reason people get stuck taking things like Narcissism, ADHD or any other disorders or brain deficiencies completely out of the picture.

There are so many people who do amazing things all of the time in the face of adversity that most of us take for granted.....

I recently visited the Big Island of Hawaii on a long needed vacation. It had been many years since I had gone on one and that is probably one of my favorite places in the world to go. I've done a lot of traveling in my past to Europe and Asia but every time I feel the need to get away and get my mind right I think of the Big Island ( I been there at least 8 times over the years).

My wife had never been so it was great to act as "tour guide" for her and show her the sights. The Big Island is where they hold the Iron Man Triathlon each year and we were there about the time the athletes were beginning to arrive and train along the road side.... ( mostly criterium bikes and some runners ). But also with these were the para-triatheletes who do the same course (2.4 mile swim, 112 mile bike, 26.5 mile run ) in a variety of special equipment that allow them to compete along side everyone else despite their handicap. I am always so impressed and inspired by these people in that they have moved so far beyond any challenges that their physical impairment imposes on them it isn't even funny. It is their will and determination that gets them there and it only proves what can be done with a change of attitude and perspective.

I saw a bumper sticker on a car of one of these athletes that read "you don't know how strong you are until strong is all you've got".....here, here! hooo-aaaahh!

J you make some excellent points...and are well traveled:)

Submitted by c ur self on Tue, 10/07/2014 - 12:55

When you venture upon a place in life (for many of us it may happen several times a day in different applications) where you are stuck, or your mate is stuck. How you deal with it will always determine if you will move toward freedom, or just go deeper...

If I become so needy or dependent that my wife's actions can mold me (influence my emotions & psychi), then at that point I will try to preserve my life, and all my stored up baggage will coming leaching out. So I start dealing with the issue wrongly, and in 5 minutes, I'm asking myself or God, like it's his fault. How did I get here? The place I hate, How did I get here? I can only live in the mind I have!!!

So, for me, it becomes a question of do I trust c ur self ? Or do I seek to renew my mind daily in Christ Jesus, who's spirit can and does give me the supernatural ability to experience peace regardless of the circumstances?

For me it's a no brainer, (no pun intended) if the gift of self awareness that I have so desired and sought is teaching me one thing....For me to live by my intellect, (by site) always takes me down the path of self preservation and anyone in the way, well sadly they've got a price to pay:( And the very sad part about that is, I will always intellectually pickup my add/adhd books and explain why it's their fault. ugh! :(

I like what you say here.

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Tue, 10/07/2014 - 14:40

c ur self,

I have worked hard not to be needy nor dependent on my spouse. My hard work unpacking, and unpacking, and unpacking my baggage has helped me attain - what I call my "Roses." 1. Forgiveness. 2. Just because someone calls me a chair, it doesn't make me one. 3. If you always do what you always did, you always get what you always got. 4. Most of my troubles come from me and my big mouth. 5. Cry a river, build a bridge, and get over it. 6. The bridges you cross before you get them, are almost always over rivers that aren't even there. There are many more.

"For me to live by my intellect, (by site) always takes me down the path of self preservation and anyone in the way, well sadly they've got a price to pay:( And the very sad part about that is, I will always intellectually pickup my add/adhd books and explain why it's their fault. ugh! :("

The sorting for me comes from the fact that I know I do not want self-preservation - all by myself. Not in a house, like two ships passings in the night. I tried the 'numb to everything routine.' Not for me. Hey, it took many years to get the ADHD diagnosis. I in my wildest imaginings would never have imagined it would be anything other than a catalyst to the road of understanding. You could not imagine the creativity and problem-solving genius in my spouse.

Why I am still grasping at straws? The fact that I have yet to read in any worthwhile ADHD book, that "Sorry lady, you gotta learn to do stuff on your own." "Sorry lady, a man with ADHD will never say he is sorry." "Sorry lady, the best you can do is brace yourself for the hardship when your spouse goes on a spending spree." ( I am somewhat blest in that realm. He has never driven up the driveway pulling new boat!) "Sorry Lady, he will say anything he wants to anyone he wants and it will be OK because his brain is ADHD wired." "Sorry lady, get used to doing everything his way on his time table." "Sorry lady, his abrupt change in ignoring the Family Rule of "No Character Assassination, Not Ever" is a sign of his growth."

And the sorting of the Parent/Child Dynamic is not so easy. Seems each time I believe I am on the right path, it is something I SHOULD have done 'to be helpful." LOL - that helpfulness got me in trouble in the first place.

I got my trust in Christ alone. I do NOT want to learn how to survive in my own little bubble of peace and harmony, in the same house with any other who will not share and share alike.

Nope, I do not want to kick him to the curb. I want to walk away with my dignity knowing I have left no stone unturned. No man is an island. No matter where I find my internal peace, I can still be searching for that elusive step that gets us to being nice to each other.

Exhibiting peace at some one else's right to swing there fist, ENDS right where my nose begins.

In all honesty, you know what really gets my goat? The idea that when it is the right time for me to leave, he will find some needy lady, to step right in and do what I did for him for the next 10 years.

So, Taa Daa! Am I 'stuck' in control? As Droop-Along from the old Ricochet Rabbit cartoons would say, "It's possible. It's possible."

I gotta figure out what I want, not what I don;t want. :)

Liz

In all honesty

Submitted by Standing on Tue, 10/07/2014 - 16:03

Liz: "In all honesty, you know what really gets my goat? The idea that when it is the right time for me to leave, he will find some needy lady, to step right in and do what I did for him for the next 10 years."

Me, too.

But that must be firmly placed into the box labeled: 'not my concern'.

It's a prideful thing and not worth its weight in manure.

It really is none of my business

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Tue, 10/07/2014 - 16:17

Standing,

I'll work on that :) Sometimes its the little foxes that bite my kiester!

Liz

Dark circles and prayer

Submitted by Standing on Tue, 10/07/2014 - 16:23

Martin Luther said (paraphrased): You can't keep the birds from flying over your head, but you can certainly prevent them from building a nest in your hair.

When those thoughts float past, I'm going to remember how the dark circles beneath my eyes are fading and then say a prayer for the next one who walks in my shoes.

I'm Confused?

Submitted by kellyj on Tue, 10/07/2014 - 15:43

It sounds like what your saying is.... to live by my intellect,(ALONE?) ....(by site) always takes me down the path of self preservation and anyone in the way, well sadly they've got a price to pay:( And the very sad part about that is, I will always intellectually pickup my add/adhd books and explain why it's their fault. ugh! :(

and

it becomes a question of do I trust c ur self ? Or..... (do I defer to my faith for answers?).....do I seek to renew my mind daily in Christ Jesus, who's spirit can and does give me the supernatural ability to experience peace regardless of the circumstances?

What about the golden rule? That's pretty much covers all the bases and Jesus also said it too? Isn't that deferring to faith but using as a guide in pretty much every situation you could ever come up with....and then do it!

Sorry for being a pest but deferring is also a good word.......which can be synonymous with waiting or putting something on hold? Or deferring your problems or troubles ( putting them on hold ) or looking for another source ( deferring them onto someone else ).

So, in manner of speaking...deferring away from yourself in any respect is sort of like passing the buck don't you think?

I like the sound of the buck stops here and deferring to the golden rule in all cases and that makes it pretty clear and easy where to go from there.

Just say'in

Sorry to be confusing J...maybe this will help.

Submitted by c ur self on Tue, 10/07/2014 - 18:36

So, in a manner of speaking...deferring away from yourself in any respect is sort of like passing the buck don't you think?

It's not that I am deferring from my self, or my responsibilities, it's just that if I fall prey to trying to get lasting life, out my carnal thinking...I will always try to save my own life....

Let me put it into literal terms for you....After 11 months of separation, and 10 months of counseling....Listening to her every two or three weeks, bring her reality of denial and blame into the office....Knowing what I had dealt with for 4.5 years....and knowing I'm resigning myself to little to no help at home; hoarding; disrespectful judgments...I'll stop there, but you get the picture...A good intellectual decision for me would have been to put this attempt at marriage out of it's misery...But, by faith, God is showing both of us, "a more excellent way!"

This scripture also helps bring me back to a state of humility every time I start thinking I know something, which only occurs about 100 times a day;)

Romans 8: 6-8: 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Admireable Indeed C Ur Self

Submitted by kellyj on Tue, 10/07/2014 - 20:23

I can't say I didn't do the same in your shoes because I did. I would be still married to my ex-wife....I say ex even though I was married once before when I was young...if you could call it a marriage. Short and not so sweet. Thank God. She did me a huge favor and ran off with another guy. I felt sorry for him! lol

But my official ex who I have referred to as having some similar spending issues as your wife also made the decision for me so I cannot say I wouldn't still be with her as struggling as you are. I'm sorry you have to deal with your situation and glad you have the faith that I didn't have to see you through.

Take care

There is freedom in this statement J...

Submitted by c ur self on Thu, 10/02/2014 - 16:17

(The only way you can survive and thrive successfully while still being in a relationship with a Narcissist is to step outside the circle completely and not be a part of it.)

I have found in my life and relationships that this statement is true for any behaviors I want no part of, (or need to confront myself) label them what you will...

This truth has been shared with many of us, but, in our defense it takes a very stable, made up mind, that has absolutely no fear of what the out come will be....I think people would be surprised by the outcomes...I feel the number three you mentioned (change) maybe be the number one result....

And for me I have to ask myself one huge question right here....What do I really have now, and what am I protecting? If change for the better doesn't happen, when I step outside the circle of enablement, at least hope remains....

I would like to say something right here like to no pain, no gain...but, it doesn't really fit...cause the pain is already here for many of us living in chaotic relationships...So, I will make up a new saying....The Son rise always follows the darkest nights!

c ur self

Submitted by Standing on Thu, 10/02/2014 - 16:42

I have to ask you something and I hope it's okay, that you don't mind.

Setting aside all of the relational pain from these chaotic relationships, apart from all of the many disappointments and wounds and challenges and communication troubles...

do you personally feel that your financial stability could be pulled out from under you like a rug at any moment, due to your spouse's unregulated impulse control and a sense of entitlement?

I'm speaking strictly of practical matters here, not emotional ones. In the most compassionate, loving manner possible, do you view it as a very real possibility that your spouse could do something that could wipe you out and cause you to lose your home and all that you've worked so hard to steward wisely?

Hi Standing:)

Submitted by c ur self on Thu, 10/02/2014 - 17:17

First let me say you can ask me anything, I will never mind, I'm here to share, and be shared with. I want to live out my life in peace if it's possible and I want the same for everyone else also:)

Now your post....Yes she could do that...But, I know regardless of her lifestyle, it's in her heart to not do that....And I (me) know the instability that goes along with making decisions that are fear based. So I hope I've learned from it.

My Father owns it all, and he has promised me as his child, that he will never leave or forsake me...I've worked since I was lad of 14, to earn spending money. Dependable people, who will work for a living can get a job....And, I'm not to good to go back to work tomorrow....I hope this answers your question?

Yes, Yes it does answer... thank you...

Submitted by Standing on Thu, 10/02/2014 - 17:57

and I have to be direct here, because I want to get to the bottom of my own resistance to this thing re: finances.. and you did say that I can ask anything. So here it is...and I really do apologize for being so nosy, but I am slow and dense and stubborn, I'm afraid!

You are retired and she works a zillion hours a week, right? I'm guessing that she contributes to the household expenses in addition to maintaining her previous place? I guess I have the notion that she really is not as much of a liability to you as I feel my husband is to me.

You wrote that you know, regardless of her lifestyle, it's not in her heart to bring you to financial ruin. I think that I know the same about my husband. I like to think that he does have good intentions. However, he also has an established pattern of what any sane person would call childish, irresponsible financial dealings. He does not seem to access his heart when an impulse grabs him by the short hairs, you know? Buy now, rationalize it later. That is his policy.

I have trusted the Father for many years and made some pretty outwardly foolish choices based on what I thought was faith. So I now have many questions!

What would you do/say if your spouse came home with a brand new vehicle on a 6 year loan at an outrageous interest rate and you knew that her ability to pay for the term of that loan was very doubtful?

Do you enforce a budget of some sort?

Would you or do you give her an allowance?

I know this is personal stuff and if you change your mind about sharing, I will surely understand, but I seriously need some guidance on specifics here. I've gotten by the past ten years by basically agreeing with everything and not making waves. Those days are gone. My words are few, and those few are affirming. I am getting pretty good at it. However, sometimes real adult talk must occur and I would like to know the best way of handling that. Do you have any thoughts? Thank you!

You've got me laughing now;)

Submitted by c ur self on Thu, 10/02/2014 - 19:14

OK...here we go lol...As for as the expenses here, she pays no bills...Now in saying that she does pay all of her own stuff..Insurance, she helps our 23 old who is in college at Auburn w/ a little expense money...etc... etc...our finances are completely separate...she probably makes...28.00 per hour something like that...So, she doesn't need an allowance...She can handle her stuff...Also; we've had that conversation, she know's just because I respect her right to stay under the load she is under, I do not agree with it...Here savings pretty much stay's depleted...It's mostly a lack of discipline. Your comment about the car and interest rate thing...She would not do that...She does do childish things like tit for tat...When I bought my car, she went and bought one too.:)...But, she needed a newer car...It's just the way she handled it...She hid it from me, and she refinanced her old house to get the $...didn't say one thing to me about it...It was an intentional act...she was very mad at me at the time;)....You know...she maybe Narcissistic to, she has a desire to control every happening, and most everybody. Esp..me and the kids...I always caulked it up to her independent nature and being single until she was in her mid forties...oh well...it's a mute point...Let me see, you also asked about my reaction to a questionable purchase...I will tell you like my 2 year old granddaughter told her mom when the sippy cup had water in it and she thought it was Juice..."I don't wike it"....:)...Sorry, we must laugh or we will loose our hold on reality! I would expect him to do what I would expect her to do...Be a big boy/girl and never let your choices role over onto me...I'm not taking your monkey's.

Do I have a budget...Yes, I keep it simple, and disciplined, It works off of accounts....One Credit Union has no debit card...Cks only, no money comes out except for bills...every three or four months anything extra in this account roles off to savings...the other Credit Union is my debit account...It's my day to day expenses....I do not use a credit card for spending since I retired, unless it's for a certain few things like reservations and mail order...I do have a few small things like the Gym, electronic news paper...and Direct TV...But, it's never abused...She does not have access to any of these accounts I've mentioned here.....

Do I have any thoughts? I do have a few thoughts...One is keep doing what you have been doing...Daily depending on God, to make you the vessel and wife that honor's him...Secondly go slowly with changes, it can be overwhelming to the relationship....Remember his life may not make sense to you, but it does to him....My wife can handle her lifestyle, I would go crazy lol, Also, if you need to make changes for your own well being, be open with him about it. If he gets upset, just tell him the truth. I love you, and this is not about that. I'm just making decisions I feel I need to make as a responsible adult. He will have to own his on emotions, and actions at that point....I would love to hug you now.:)

:) c ur self, You've helped

Submitted by Standing on Thu, 10/02/2014 - 19:54

:) c ur self, You've helped me to recognize that I have more control and fear to release and I don't wike it:) But this time it will be in a mature way, not a magical wishful thinking kinda way.

Thank you for responding so specifically. That's exactly how spelled-out I need stuff to be in order to squelch the questions.

I think that I could live with what you've described, but I don't know whether that is possible with my husband's level of entitlement.

But I recognize this as pure gold: "Also, if you need to make changes for your own well being, be open with him about it. If he gets upset, just tell him the truth. I love you, and this is not about that. I'm just making decisions I feel I need to make as a responsible adult."

In small doses, with few or no words, in love, with firm tenderness, I will extricate myself from any remaining fear or desire to control his lifestyle without relinquishing my own to him. That's a tall order requiring considerable separation from "expectations" on his side, maybe more than mine. There will be plenty of conflict ... again, from his side. Good thing I'm a loving grown-up :) oy. Thank you!

I Like Your Optimism C Ur Self.....

Submitted by kellyj on Sat, 10/04/2014 - 00:12

And I also feel for you. I just read your posts to standing and since I'm already deep in this thread I hope you don't mind if I barge right in......why thank you. lol

This is where it confusing to me....when I here things about others with ADHD that just don't apply? (to me) As I was reading your last post about finances with Standing I started to get shivers up my spine. It brought back some unpleasant memories with my ex wife....that being ones about finances. What's so ironic is that I was you back then......and I'm the one who supposedly has impulse issues? And especially not surrounding money and finances?

If I didn't know what I know....and have read the posts here on this forum.....and someone were to ask me if over spending and impulsive buying was part of ADHD I would have probably answered NO....based only on myself of course.

Neither is gambling.....ganbling leaves me feeling like I dropped my wallet into a storm drain.

Neither is impulsive drinking......even though I love to drink at times but only as I feel in the mood. I mentioned in another post that I actually stopped having my daily beer after work once I started taking Adderall (over 6 years ago) and probably only drink 4 or 5 a week except for that once in while occasion.

My point is that this impulsiveness really can take a lot of different forms....not saying I don't have impulse issues but it's not what one would guess ( in reference to the some of the common ones that I mentioned ) or maybe those are more compulsive? Worth investigating?

But before I take off on a tangent ( there's one of mine....impulsive tangential conversations ha) I wanted to mention something that came to mind as I read more of the details of your situation with your wife.......and me being you in my past.

Hindsight is 20/20 and mine is crystal clear in some respects since I've made it point to learn from my mistakes...or experience take your pick.

I'm fading tonight so I will follow up later but I wanted to say that fear was a major factor in me with my ex-wife and spending. Looking back.....I see how afraid I was to put my foot down. I also remember that my ex used this against me. Like you wife....petty punishments for misbehaving ( in her mind ) which = trying to control her spending. It became an endless battle....sneaking....hiding....... lying........you name it. I cut up her credit cards, canceled our joint accounts, got separate everything and then would try and sit down and plan a budget. All I got was resentment and attitude.....and more sneaking, hiding and lying.

Anyway.....this is where I get confused about all of this stuff and ADHD as it appears that I fit more at times with the nons in this forum in respect to some of the major relationship issues but especially money and spending?

I will admit that I see much more readily how the chaos that I am so used to.....in my head ( which doesn't feel like chaos to us?) does extend in many ways to my wife and at least I see this for a start.

I liked the comment in the movie "Loving ADHD" where it was mentioned that (we) with ADHD have trouble knowing where the edge of the cliff is......and since we live there a lot anyway....it's hard to know exactly when to stop before going over the edge.

Or something close to that. I see this in myself. I've gone over that edge a thousand times or more....but not with money?

Wonder why? Is it a gender thing? I think Standing would argue with me there as well as many other wives on this forum.

Is this ADHD or something else?

I'm perplexed?

I love the way you can take

Submitted by c ur self on Sat, 10/04/2014 - 12:22

I love the way you can take your analytical capabilities and put it on paper for us....Your are really great at it.... My mind works very similar, but, I loose much of it when I try to organize these thoughts and feelings and put them in writing for others. But, I way over detail my wife's ability to comprehend, so I am trying to learn to not do that :)

I'm learning to try and not have a judgment for the way my wife lives, But, just acceptance and respect of her style, regardless of how I personally view it.

When I ask myself what do I have to offer her that is beneficial, it always boils down to just being a daily example. An example of someone who try's to look ahead and keep a comfortable and safe distance from the edge of the cliff. Not buying into any victim stuff, but, counting my blessings, and look for the beauty in her and our relationship...J...I guess my reality is to know I can and do mess up and try to eliminate as much as possible being a stumbling stone, and bigger part of the relationship problem than any add/ADHD or other behavior labeled mentality....I told you once that ADHD is a mute point if a person can, and will live in a daily self-aware state...I would like to think that is my goal in life...Because when I do, I listen better, I'm nicer, I even decide at times I don't know it all. Ha ha...

But I agree with you 100%, add/ADHD is not a reason for wasteful and unwise spending, nor do I blame much of her or my immature actions on Add/ADHD. My wife was off yesterday, we had a relaxed day around here...She told me over in the afternoon she hadn't taken her adderall, and she was struggling to get going....She didn't turn into a bear...Lol...It was a good day!

She still can't have a conversation with me...The sane one :)....about add/adhd stuff w/o getting defensive, but that's OK....I tried to ask her some questions, and get her thoughts on some stuff pertaining to adhd as we were traveling a few weeks ago...And with in 60 seconds after my first questions....She hadn't answered the question...But, she had informed me that I had adhd, and was also Bi-polar...So since I found that I felt I wasn't qualified to answer anymore questions :(....I love it!...Don't sweat the small stuff, and it's all small stuff :)

and how do you feel about women drivers, J?

Submitted by Standing on Sat, 10/04/2014 - 22:27

:) only teasing. I don't understand the money thing. I am careful with it, because of my mother's strong influence and also due to my generalized fear. Had a female family member with drawers of stuff she'd purchased and never removed the wrappers. I think she was trying to fill a deep void. I remember her complaint that her parents had given her a very plain, generic name. She thought she should have had a fancy, 4-syllable moniker. So she spent her life accumlating fancy, special things, but never someone of her own to love. My husband... well, he never had much material stuff, but he wants what he wants NOW.Actually, his purchasing seems to be just as related to hoarding as it does spending. He used to shop the clearance shelves for assorted odds and ends that often accumlated in a drawer or box somewhere. He definitely has a powerful fear of deprivation... that there might be something he may need/desire and it won't be available to him. Come to think of it, that may partially explain why he hates closed doors. And on that note, i apologize for what feels like a random babble :)

Women Drivers? Are you kidding me......fa gat a bout it!

Submitted by kellyj on Sun, 10/05/2014 - 06:12

also teasing...touche! ha

but you really did bring some things to mind that helped me answer my query about the money. I'll come back later.

Awww a perfect day...then we fight about yesterday's details ;)

Submitted by c ur self on Wed, 10/01/2014 - 18:19

It reminds me of the movies that keep starting all over:)....was it 59 first dates? or something about ground hog day? Anyway think about it this way...You gonna get real good at it...LOL....

I Love the Movie Ground Hog Day...

Submitted by kellyj on Thu, 10/02/2014 - 11:12

but I don't want to live it! Know what I mean? I'm trying NOT to do this but persistence in not letting things continue or get too far a field is tricky. I hate confrontation but I'm trying hard to avoid conflict but confront problems just the same. Part of what does appear to work is NOT saying anything at the time and saving it for later.....like the next day when it is still fresh enough to remember.

Melissa mentioned in another post being a "fine line" in reference to something else and I think this is a good example of a "fine line" before it becomes Ground Hog Day.

Still working on it.

FYI: the end result of the other day was that my wife quietly reversed her position....not saying so but seemingly understanding by doing what I asked in part later on.

I'm now thinking that adding into "I don't understand but I don't agree" also might mean........"right now until I think about it but I haven't had a chance to do this so the answer is always going to be NO until I do......yet I'm not going to say so even if I do because that might set a precedent that I can't reverse in case I need to even if it's arbitrary or irrational."

OK...I can live with that.

I'll take that as a success......a pain in the ass but a success none the least.

I do see the value in just keeping your mouth shut and waiting to see what happens. You can always go back to arguing and fighting over things later if you choose. ha ha

J you hit on something here for me...

Submitted by c ur self on Wed, 10/01/2014 - 18:09

Sometimes, maybe more than sometimes...I will give a response to my wife that is "prepared" or a better word for it may be "tainted"...Then later, I may think about it, and text her back or bring it up again to relax my reply or change the details of it...And the whole truth is I may even need to apologize for how it sounded....These quick defensive postured response's is sadly a result of what has happened in our marriage over the years when I would give an first thought, open hearted, honest response or a response where I was willing to do what ever she asked with in reason...And then, I ended up bleeding to death or being completely taken advantage of....It's definitely a little better around here, but, I sure hope we can get to a place where we want the best for each other...And can "See and Admit", that hasn't been the case for much of our 6 years of marriage....Thanks for being my mirror on this one friend :)

Cool

Submitted by kellyj on Thu, 10/02/2014 - 11:20

ditto

c ur self

Submitted by Standing on Sun, 10/05/2014 - 11:28

I used to work with a young woman who was obviously quite add. (Not sure about the H) I mean, she spoke of it herself, but not as a problem in her life... simply a fact. She does not take medication.

She is the sweetest, kindest, most giving young wife and mother. When she gives you a gift it is because she cares so much about you... and it Never, Ever had any strings attached, she just wanted you to be happy. She loves Jesus and speaks of him freely to strangers. She will also ask a stranger if he has any friends who might be interested in a blind date with a friend of hers who's single. No boundaries whatsoever.

Her wanting everyone to be happy would show itself at home by opening the frig door for her 2 year old and inviting him to pick what he'd like for breakfast (cupcakes on the bottom shelf?) and things like that.

When she wants you to come with her to an event or concert, she will not take No for an answer, She will pledge that you'll be home by midnight, then insist after the even that everyone Must go to the cheesecake factory. She is thoroughly unable to consider what the morning's effects will be on your schedule, just as much as she is unable to consider the consequence of breakfast cupcakes for a two year old.

Her husband works long hours on the road, construction. When he makes it back home for a visit, he wants to chill on the sofa. This frustrates her and she will speak of it to friends, but only in the most loving tones. She does not have a mean bone in her body.

Anyway, something about your post here reminded me of her and made me want to give her a call and check in :)

I am also soberly reminded that this is So NOT a description of the "add" I have encountered in my marriage, or here on this forum. I think that is because of the "something more than add" which is comorbid with it in many of our lives here.

It's interesting how you pick-up on things Standing..:)

Submitted by c ur self on Mon, 10/06/2014 - 11:09

This friend of your's name doesn't start with a D does it...LoL...This friend and my wife have many similarities, but, my wife probably couldn't hold her job without adderall. The short version for me is...She can be, and is much of the time that sweet lovable person for sure. But, the term that comes off the top of my head is....Master Manipulator...Life is going to be about her, so it is very hard to reason with her. I do not know if it's a learned behavior over the years of being a single Mom or if it's more related to ADD and how her mind works. But, I have to give her short loving answers concerning my feelings and my thoughts. Repeat it maybe once if she was distracted by what she was trying to force in the situation...Then stand on my feelings quietly and be prepared for the fall-out. If you show any signs of weakness she will have you fighting for your life!

As much as I would love to be able to have more verbal interaction with her about things, there is two things that has taught me painfully it can't happen. In most cases If I play a card in conversation that she thinks will benefit her in the future, she will put it up her sleeve. But, sadly when she pulls the card out, If I played a Red 6, it will have amazingly changed over time to a Black 7 and when you point out that wasn't the card. Let me just say this, right here at this point, you better be very secure emotionally and spiritually. Ha Ha...

She would never do the breakfast cupcakes for two year olds. That's something she will do herself, and that's more about her lifestyle of rushing, no time management ability, than the fact she knows it's not healthy for her.

"You want me to want you. You

Submitted by copingSAH on Thu, 10/02/2014 - 12:39

"You want me to want you. You want to want me. In that case, I don't want any part of it."

The only time when he spoke

Submitted by copingSAH on Tue, 09/30/2014 - 17:26

The only time when he spoke words of deep awareness was when he was on a particular medication for one week (he no longer wants to take it and says it "isn't" him. It is a pity).

I had braced myself that he would not remain this way on the new medication. I'm glad I did so the let down wouldn't be devastating; I still treasure that week he connected with me in a way I haven't been able to see before or since.

If that experience was truly what defines the loving relationship than I've missed out a lot but I have that one week of what felt like true compatibility with my spouse.

Right now, the only way I communicate effectively with him is through text and I find myself being untrue to my nature of communicating with some depth. I literally have to simplify my communication to a 3 or 4-word text: "chicken on the menu tonight" and NOT "treads would be great for the porch steps" The latter type of approach sets him off so badly that it leaves me reeling. I no longer think of "what have I said wrong?" Instead I can now detach and think "I said nothing that others would take offense with."

Lots of good information in this thread

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Sat, 10/04/2014 - 13:52

c ur self, coping SAH, JJamieson, Rosered, Standing,

I have read and reread this thread over the past few days. It is nice to know that there are others who are walking the same walk that I am at this point in my life.

Today this forum is acting pretty odd from behind my laptop. I am trying this post again for the 3rd time. Ist time it just was gone - maybe I hit the wrong key. 2nd time I hit save and I got a big red x that says I am not allowed to post comments here. Hmm. So I logged out and am logged back in. Hope third time is a charm!

I am asking for input on this situation. Good, bad, constructive criticism, what it is you see I am doing wrong or doing right.

When I walked in the living room, my spouse was on the couch, his eyes red, and full of tears, and brimming with those tears. I was putting on my shoes, so he asked where I was going. I told him I was going outside to work in the yard. The he asked when would be a good time to look at the numbers. I told him to tell me a time and I would do it.

He did not.

Then he said he was tired of doing the lion's share of everything around here, including bring in the income. He is tired of hearing from me, "I feel, I feel, I feel. . . . . ." And he is tired of hearing all the things I accuse him of doing, because I am actually angry at people in my past, and I need to start working on that. Then he ramped up his voice and started to get loud and angry, and said he doesn't understand how we can be in so much debt.

So I walked out of the room.

Maybe I should have just acknowledged what he said?

I felt every one of my emotional hot buttons being pushed, and I did not want to get into a verbal match of wits that would just go round and round and round.

My brain was SCREAMING at me, "Liz you gotta get away. Why is it again that you are trying to figure out how to stay with this man?"

About an hour later, my spouse came to me and said, "I wanted to point out my progress. I did not come chasing after you when you left the room." Then he went off to his job.

Gaslight? Twilight Zone? An alternate reality?

Just exactly what is it I am missing?

Liz

I think your decision to

Submitted by PoisonIvy on Sat, 10/04/2014 - 15:15

I think your decision to leave the room was wise. Your husband, for whatever reason, needed to spew and I doubt there would have been anything you could have said that would have made you or him feel better.

I agree with Rosered, Liz

Submitted by Standing on Sat, 10/04/2014 - 17:55

I think he wanted to pick a fight, because then your responsive words would have assisted in triggering the inevitable defense mechanisms which came out on their own shortly afterward, anyway. My husband often tries to use me as a catalyst in this process. I am so weary of being used.

Been there hundreds of times.

Will try to post more later, after work.

That's the way I saw it

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Sun, 10/05/2014 - 21:33

Rosered,

I also felt internal bubbling, and did not want to get into that symptom-response-response cycle by blurting out something inappropriate to peaceful conversation.. It is a vicious trap.

Liz

I'll Give This a Shot Liz.....

Submitted by kellyj on Sat, 10/04/2014 - 22:41

coming from someone with ADHD.

"I feel, I feel, I feel. . . . . ." And he is tired of hearing all the things I accuse him of doing, because I am actually angry at people in my past, and I need to start working on that. Then he ramped up his voice and started to get loud and angry, and said he doesn't understand how we can be in so much debt. "

Strike everything here except, how we can be in so much debt. That's where all the anxiety is coming from. But keep in mind that we( myself included ) with ADHD already have less tolerance to stress and anxiety than average so something big like this will put us into outer space especially if it is over a long period of time ( regardless of who created it ) That's what all the spinning is about.....the rest is just throwing turd balls at you.....or projection to be technically correct.

I mentioned the reference about going over the cliff? Another way to say this is that we live closer to the edge than you so it it takes less to get us to go over. This is a generalization but I see this in myself a lot. I may not do what your husband does ( which I don't)..but that doesn't mean I don't feel it. And when I am experiencing anxiety over something like finances....it can swim around in my head until I can't stand it anymore...again, technically speaking it's ruminating. This is where the therapy has been so effective for me. I rarely ruminate anymore but I used to a lot!......I have learned to take that anxiety (and the need to get rid of it) and use that energy to do something about it.

he asked when would be a good time to look at the numbers. I told him to tell me a time and I would do it.

That was an attempt....

He did not.

You missed your queue

Then he said he was tired of doing the lion's share of everything around here, including bring in the income.

Totally mixed up, transferred combination of victim, projection and denial ( unable to look at it because it to painful to look at his part) ..... and not very self aware way of saying.

" I need your help because I'm overwhelmed with this finance thing which is why I'm sitting here crying because I just can't handle the stress even if I was the one who put us here it doesn't matter right this moment because it feels like I'm doing everything by working and bringing home an income but I'm failing as a provider (and at my business) and we're not able to make ends meet which makes me feel like a failure and it's all I can do to keep it together because this stress is killing me and I haven't got an ounce left in me for you and you keep saying "I feel I feel" which actually feels like " I need I need" and I haven't got anything to give when I am experiencing this panacky, debilitating anxiety and I can't make it stop....or stop thinking about it.....aaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!!!!! I need your help but I just can't bring myself to ask for help so I need you to read my mind and step in just do it.....or at least help me do it or do it with me but you need to take the lead here but not make me feel any more like a failure than I already am.

Or something like that.......it's all in the moment based on feeling overwhelmed with anxiety and stress.

I think Rosered was right about leaving the room at that time but.....I still think you missed your queue based on my somewhat scrambled analogy. I think it was his cry for help but he couldn't muster up the ability to follow through and ask...it got hijacked by his feelings of low self worth and he needed you to make your move right then.

I do think you need to jump in there when this happens because if you make him do it he will crash.( go over the cliff) I"d try that and see what happens?

Perfect sense - and it drives me crazy

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Sun, 10/05/2014 - 21:30

Yes. I understand your descriptions.

Touche! Really, I can picture this being exactly the way his brain works. "I do it myself. I do it myself. I do it myself.' I believe this gets in his way big-time. It may take 10 times longer, but by doggie, he did it himself.

I will think through this a bit longer, the idea of "jumping in to help." My brain does not compute this - by doing just that, I turned my marriage into a parent/child relationship. I may need to dissect this and see how/when/where/why it went wrong.

LOL, in my house, HE will tell me what I feel and need. It obviously does not work for me! He just cannot understand why. LOL! Except for the fact that I need psychological counseling. An that is why he is stuck, because I won;t do what i need to be doing - in his opinion.

Recently, I have been trying to lead this sort of conversations to the place of "Wouldn't it make logical sense for each of us to take our own inventory, and work on what we think is important to ourselves?"

There really is not much I am able to do about his internal dialog. He manages to get everything twisted. Even compliments. He thinks they are condescending. I am only responsible for what I say - not for how he hears it. Wish I could help him in that realm. He is so angry that "no one helps him." He just cannot get to the place to admit he ever needs help. Interestingly enough, I really have heard him chide others, "WHY didn't you just call and ask me for help?"

It is so much work to try to read his mind - especially since it drives me up the wall that he tries to read mine - all the time. Doesn't ask - just ASSUMES, and then is angry I am not pleased.

Of course, there is balance in this. I like surprises. I like gifts. I just do not like feeling controlled by what he thinks is best for me.

Liz

Pointing out progress

Submitted by Standing on Sat, 10/04/2014 - 22:43

If I had a nickle! What is up with that? The only thing i can surmise is that he has just had a lengthy convo with you in his head during which the imaginary you berated him for being a failure. All i know is, 98 % of the time my husband takes this approach, i haven't even had such thoughts, much less said the words. I told him last night - i will not play the role of the wife in his one-man show. He knew i meant it. After a brief interlude of his attempt to blame and shame me, he dropped it and asked how long i would work in his business. You see? All the drama aside, he knows on which side his bread is buttered. Simple as that - so weird. No emotion. Only skewed priorities and deeply vested self concern. It does not get any better, not with him.

Standing.....Is It Narcissism or Something Else?

Submitted by kellyj on Sun, 10/05/2014 - 06:01

I'm still responding to Liz's post here but I wanted to comment on the "Pointing out progress" thing and what you said about your husband too. I'm up for a while reading so I can go back to sleep so I will need to come back to this later.

I think you're right about the conversation in his head ( like I was attempting to recreate )....but my conclusion would be different for a Narcissist about attempting to jump in and help....or even if it was an attempt or a cry for help. I guess it still could be but like you said in the example of your husband ...how quickly this drama changes when it doesn't work ( which is more of an attempt at guilt and shame by projection.....to get rid of it,,,, meaning his own) by projection. I call this using the other person as a toilet because that's what it feels like when this has happened to me.

I wanted to add to my suggestion of jumping in on queue and seeing what happens.....to see what he does. If you're right he'll do what your husband does and you'll have your answer. There are ways you can test for Narcissism on your own by setting up scenarios that will bring this out....or making test statements to see if they yield predicable results. This is part of that manipulation I was referring to. It's pretty easy to draw this out because they cannot help but do what they do. Even if you told them ahead of time that you were testing them for Narcissism and said that if they do this one thing then that proves it...........they'e probably deny it, project it back on you and say you're the Narcissist and then do that thing right in front of you anyway because they absolutely cannot help themselves......like standing in the middle of the freeway with your arms stretched in front of you and they are a MAC Truck....guess what's going to happen here? They cannot stop!

You know the drill......and I like your comment about "not playing the role of the wife in his one man show". That's perfect. That will shut them down.....usually walking away muttering and sputtering....but they will be back to try again later from a different angel. In my experience it was flipping from the "poor me victim"....and if that didn't work then the "flaming asshole" raging and attacking you. (verbally) I didn't hear this part in your comments but it still comes back at you in one form or another......personal reasonability is simply out of the question......blaming and passing it on is the standard.

But now we're referring back to your husband and his Narcissism......what about Liz's husband? Are we so sure that's what this is with him? I think this could be a combination of things so the stance your taking ( which I agree with ) with your husband may not be the right one with him? Back to testing the water to see if fits?

I'll come back to "Pointing out progress" later because I have made some new discoveries ( and a couple minor epiphanies ) that are related directly to the content of this thread and things we're discussing.....and some real progress in communication with my wife in the last few days including this "pointing out progress" topic which I wanted to share before I read your post tonight.

More later...good night.

J, I hadn't yet read your post when I replied to Liz

Submitted by Standing on Sun, 10/05/2014 - 12:21

This is so helpful, to me, at least! I thoroughly appreciate receiving the alternate view and learning to recognize the sometimes subtle differences between what might be typical add or narc responses. As c ur self has expressed, your analytical style is excellent for clarifying.

My first thought about Liz's incident (sorry, Liz, feels weird to be talking about your experience in this way!) - her husband was trying to re-solidify in his own mind that SHE is the one responsible for all this, and he does so by tossing the ball back into her court by requiring that she set a time, as though this will be a formal meeting. Also, this puts her into the position of almost an employee or service provider, like she is his accountant on retainer, instead of his wife. Obviously, these are my feelings, and I cannot possibly know his underlying motivation, but when I've been there with my husband, it never has worked out well or had any lasting benefit.

It all comes down to what precipitated his request. His tears indicate to me that he desires comfort from mommy. Has nothing to do with a desire to change how he operates, simply - give me a hug and tell me everything will be alright. The proof is in what followed: I am tired of doing everything around here. This is what he wanted Liz to say to him: It's okay, honey, I know that you try so hard, we will be alright = join him in his magical thinking. When she does not engage in the designated "appropriate" way and meet his immediate need, he fills in the blank himself. Now here is the kicker, from my perspective: When I DO give the requested comfort Along With a proposed plan to climb out of the pit, I am met with "buts" and "you don't understand this part of the business" and numerous other reasons why his way is right. I lose. Every single time. Why? Because he has no intention of changing, he just wants to remind me of what a great guy he is.

So I've tried giving the comfort and then returning the next day or two with the proposed plan. Much, much too busy and important a man to be bothered.

So I've tried giving the plan at the meeting and it's "why can't you ever just look at the positive?" (Key word = "just", meaning only.)

I do feel that Liz is being used as a toilet, right here in this one example and in so many others. "Everyone else" in his world thinks he is dandy. That gives me chills, cuz I hear it all the time, in different forms.

"They cannot stop." Indeed. When I look in the mirror, I read "MACK", stamped across my forehead. I don't know about Liz's husband, only having the hairs standing up on the back of my neck when I read her as a clue. Maybe she will try some of the testing you mentioned and let us know how it goes.

He did walk away muttering and sputtering when I announced my decision. I did it in love, expressing love, and with no criticism. He tried to argue and blame me, but I repeated that I will not fight with him and I told him he can put the blame on me (which, of course, he will anyway) and he can rest assured that I will not tear down his image to others (as if those near enough don't already see it.) He then asked me how long I would continue to work in the business. That's the priority, always has been. I can tell he is a bit sad and he will miss me. But he spent 4 hours on the phone that night, afterward, talking business, and after a quiet 30 minutes during which I bet he told his pal about my announcement, he was laughing and pumping himself up yet again. For four hours. Loudly. He wanted me to know that he is fine. He will fill the tiny gap where his image of "the wife" used to be with someone new or else his image of himself as "the successful business owner" will simply flow in to occupy that space. I'm sad for him. I am a good wife. I will be a good friend. For me, I am relieved.

I think that's a good test for what's really behind all the symptoms, in the driver's seat. How does the person respond when you allow him or her to keep her illusion and bow out gently? Yes, he will have sad moments, briefly, but he has highly functioning, well-practiced defense mechanisms to ward those off and I think that he is also relieved. This is one less boring, tedious problem with which he has to contend = me. One less game he has to put on. One less meaningless distraction from the real important stuff - devoting himself fully to self-actualization and the quest for glory. May he go in peace.

I can already guess what he'll tell folks - that I'm having a mid-life crisis and need to go find myself. That could not possibly be farther from the truth. Truth is, I finally grew up.

On edit: I remembered one more thing. I have heard him, many times, tell other men, when they tell him of a break-up... "If that's the worst thing that ever happens to you, you are great!"
I remember wondering how many times he has told himself just that.

But Here's One Thing That Doesn't Fit Standing???

Submitted by kellyj on Sun, 10/05/2014 - 16:18

The tears or crying?

I think Freud was quoted as saying that "neurotics make themselves miserable.....Naricissists make everyone else around them miserable."...close enough.

My experience is that they have flat affect except anger...especially when the situation calls for empathy or emotion...even for themselves. They play the poor me pity card but I haven't ever recalled real tears or crying? Good acting maybe? Like you said......easily move from one "act" to another and appear relatively unfazed by anything emotional.

That's the thing.......it is a defense from feeling bad and shedding disquieting emotions and it works very well for them. Of course at the end of the day they are pretty miserable but even it that my experience is they aren't even aware of their own misery and appear by all accounts to be just fine....and I don't think that's an act. I think they really do feel just fine or at least skin deep.

So what's up with the tears and crying? Genuine tears or even faking tears is not something I've ever witnessed from a Narcissist? That's the thing....everything with them is never an act and no matter how badly they come across it's rare to see them apologize or show any signs of regret or remorse or even realizing this need exists....unelss it gains them pity of course.....

but tears? Oblivious and devoid of feeling yes.

Again.....these broad generalizations.

That's the bit of doubt I have about Liz's husband but I probably haven't read enough other scenarios to get a feel for it plus.....I'm no expert.........only an expert from experience and a whole lot of that for sure. lol

PS...I wanted to add something that I have observed. I've asked other people including my therapist about this but no one seems to have noticed this? When you call a Narc out on their behavior......or you catch them unprepared with a question or situation that somehow doesn't register ( part of the flat affect ) they will freeze or pause and then there's this look. It's in their eyes....kind of blank but even more subtle. For lack of a better description......dead. It's spooky. Sometimes I've caught just a glimpse of this in people sometimes and it will quickly disappear. Not day dreaming, not staring out into space or deep in thought.......dead. Lifeless. It really bothers me and I can't not see it. It use to come out of my father right after he erupted over something or he just downloaded (projected) a bunch of his poison on you. There's a brief moment when I could see this in his eyes and then it would disappear.....like the life came back into them. I remember thinking that this was really scary and I've seen it in other people as well. I know this sounds weird but I do focus on peoples eyes a lot. Also why I can't look at people eyes when I'm trying to talk or think because I can't help but get fixated on them ( also when they think I'm not listening or paying attention even thought I am) It's a problem though because sometimes......I'm really not paying attention and for others they can never be sure.

Anyway......I always ask people if they can see this too? I've never got a definitive answer or anyone who has said they know what I'm talking about. Not even sure it has anything to do with Narcissism but I do know when I see it...it is usually connected to someone is up to no good. I'm highly suspicious to say the least.

Tears

Submitted by Standing on Sun, 10/05/2014 - 15:58

You make a valid point, J. I have never witnessed my husband shed tears or even pretend to... well, maybe once, with the pretending. He and I have actually spoken several times, long before his diagnosis, about his lack of empathy and the fact that he does not feel any depth of sadness at things that would have most of us at least watery-eyed.

As I recall, there's another 3-letter personality disorder with which tears and other volatile expressions of emotion might fit better, along with suicidal ideation, etc., but I surely could not even begin to guess about that.

Maybe it's like the money question. Influences from long ago may have impacted a personal with npd, borderline pd, add, whatever. Possibly a family member was very emotional, histrionic, even. Maybe it's a tool in some narcissists kit, used to manipulate. I don't have a clue, but I bet the person who's face to face with it has a gut feeling. I say, trust that intuition. All that being said, I am pretty sure that a narcissist can fake or act anything he or she wants to, if he or she thinks it may garner him or her some much wanted supply.

Hey, I'm attempting to cook a Sunday dinner here, but will be back when possible to re-read your engine/tranny post ! Very interesting ! Personally, I related to being stuck in the back seat with fear at the wheel, but what I really want to better understand is the interplay between add and npd. More later, I hope. And I hope Liz comes back to share her thoughts on all this.

I Was Thinking....

Submitted by kellyj on Sun, 10/05/2014 - 22:49

after writing the last post and the with my engine hypothesis.....that you can get easily carried away with diagnosing personality disorders like NPD.....I think technically a person has to be off the charts so to speak before they qualify officially ( according to the DMS 5 )....know what I mean? That doens't mean that it's not useful to use a guide either. Back to the sliding scale.....and even if someone isn't a full blown NPD doesn't mean they are going to qualify as having a problem in that department.

Second thought about ADHD.....which was my thinking about myself and my hypothesis. ADHD can come in different flavors depending on......NPD/ADHD or even NPD/ADD might be one version. ( making even a more subtle contrast between these two ) And the going a step further....the varyng degrees of each in combination. This could get complicated!

I know this is just my own personal hypothesis but as it pertains to me......it's not only interesting but on a personal level......something that I can use and explain what makes me tick as well. Once you start noticing things about yourself in these ways, you start wanting answers as much as you spouses do except for one thing. Having it gives me a distinct advantage in my ability to do this.

I get really frustrated some times when I read or hear things about ADHD that makes me go...."what a minute?? this doens't sound right ( at least for me)". I know to a certain degree without asking that this is true but there doesn't seem to be any definitive answers out there. Probably because there aren't any (yet). This does makes ME the best source I have to rely on when you start to refine this down at a certain point. Using my gut intuition and paying attention has been as least in the ball park.

And when I hear generalities and speculations that start getting too far from anything I know I have to wonder where this comes from?

I still want to comment on the "Progress I've Made" thing too. I have a few things to say about that ( not defense but some fact based truth ).......and a real life example that my wife and I just came to an understanding over.

but we're having a relaxing Sunday evening and I want to get back to it. Thanks for responding and I'm glad we have some info to share. I'm learning a lot.

You are right, J.

Submitted by Standing on Mon, 10/06/2014 - 08:35

I can see how speculation leads in circles. The first counselor with whom we met here, several years ago, did not suggest any testing to pinpoint the issues, but within a few sessions, he was encouraging me to separate. Sadly, i identified more with my husband than with the voice of reason, and i left the counseling. I don't know why i need things spelled out for me. It's like i go around in circles in my head trying to see things from every angle and ultimately assume it must be something i am doind wrong. But enough of that. I would say that i've found add behaviors to be frustrating, but not maddening. What is not manageable is a lack of concern for consequences. I mean, a total lack of concern, not just trouble calculating the cost of an action. An unwillingness to include another human being in the process of planning toward future goals. It's the lone ranger stuff that breaks the bond.

Gosh, Oh golly Gee, do I get this!!!!

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Mon, 10/06/2014 - 10:32

Sadly, i identified more with my husband than with the voice of reason, and i left the counseling. I don't know why i need things spelled out for me. It's like i go around in circles in my head trying to see things from every angle and ultimately assume it must be something i am doind wrong. But enough of that.

I am so at a loss already. I have spent years going to counselor after counsel after counselor. Having my spouse, sit firm, with his arms crossed, waiting for that counselor to determine, "What is wrong with my wife."

I would say that i've found add behaviors to be frustrating, but not maddening.

I still find it maddening that he cannot see any responsibility at all in his actions. To me. My brother, His brother. His - used-to-be friends. People who he feels took advantage of him. If someone asks you for something, and you give it to them, how is that being taken advantage of? Oh, because THEY KNEW you would not say no. Why not just say "No. I want to keep that."

Or if someone asks you to help them, and you go out of your way to skip work and home responsibilities to help them, and then when they did not read your mind and show up to help you, how is that being taken advantage of? People ask, you say yes. You do not ask, people have no clue you need them.

Or if you insist you are happy to "help out" even when someone did not ask - why is it you being insulted when they do not appreciate you butting your nose into their business?

Or if you micro-manage everyone around you, why are you so insulted that no one wants to work with you?

Or if you successfully control everything with your angry voice, why can you not understand most people do not like to be treated that way?

What is not manageable is a lack of concern for consequences. I mean, a total lack of concern, not just trouble calculating the cost of an action. An unwillingness to include another human being in the process of planning toward future goals. It's the lone ranger stuff that breaks the bond.

I see that. He is out there, angry, alone, sad. If he was happy, I'd say "More power to him." But he is not.

He is hard to want to live with or even choose to be around. Like juggling lit sticks of dynamite. Russian roulette with my emotions. No thank you.

Liz

Yes, i see

Submitted by Standing on Mon, 10/06/2014 - 11:28

Mine behaves like a bunnyrabbit who thnks he is in green clover, happy with his biz, so for the first time in 10 years, i don't feel responsible for him.

Interjection totally out of left field

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Mon, 10/06/2014 - 12:18

Standing,

This really hit my funny bone!

And what came into my mind was this silly life story of mine:

After I had been married several years, my spouse said, "What do you want for Christmas this year"" I told him I wanted the board game 'Splat!'

I didn't get it for Christmas.

The next year, when my spouse said, "What do you want for Christmas this year?" I told him I really wanted the board game 'Splat!"

I didn't get it for Christmas.

The next year, when my spouse said, "What do you want for Christmas this year?" I told him, "Same thing I wanted last year, the board game 'Splat!"

I didn't get it for Christmas.

The next year, when my spouse said, "What do you want for Christmas this year?" I pretty much erupted with, "You have asked me that over and over, and when I tell what I really want, which is a silly board game, 'Splat!' you do not listen, so I am tired of telling you what I want, then not getting it."

I got the board game 'Splat!' for Christmas.

LOL!!!

Liz

Did The Councelor Say Why He Recomended Seperation?

Submitted by kellyj on Mon, 10/06/2014 - 11:50

There's a really good reason to separate but it might not be what you think. It forces you (both) to step outside the circle in a literal physical way so you can see and think better without being pulled back in ( back to what we were talking about).

It's not about conceding defeat and the final death of your relationship with him ( even though it could be? )...but it will give you the chance to be completely separate from it and not have to spend so much energy and effort to do this while someone keeps pulling you back into it. It will allow you to see things much more clearly and make clean decisions on what to do next and they will come much more quickly and easily when this happens.

But it doesn't mean it over necessarily.....that option is still left on the table.

I can tell you from experience that this is what will happen....especially if you are in a relationship with a NPD.......they make this process nearly impossible while you are still there with them.

All your energy is spent trying to get outside (the circle) long enough just to be able to see things more clearly.

All their energy is spent making static and convoluting things so you can't. ( that feeling that you or him..or both are completely out of touch with reality. It''s disorienting to say the least.)

Again....just my experience with this.

Separation

Submitted by Standing on Mon, 10/06/2014 - 13:11

J, the first counselor, from about 4 years ago, was really into listing pros vs cons. I don't know whether or not he is a Christian man, but he went to great lengths to point out to me that my husband would get by just fine on his own and basically - what's in it for me? Nothing. He did not discuss narcissism or add/adhd or any other conditions or disorders; he simply let me know that there would be no change in the status quo. I rejected his hopeless outlook and did not return to see him, thinking that I could handle this on my own.

This counselor, a Christian PhD, based on his meetings with my husband, recommended the complete psych evaluation, which revealed Narcissistic Personality Disorder. This doctor has worked with individuals who have add and narc. and he would be willing to do so in this case, but he recommends legal separation for my protection

1) because of my husband's attitudes, demonstrated in front of him in his office - that arms akimbo stance Liz mentioned, along with an intensely inflated ego that comes through via his tone of voice and words. Due to all of this and our history, he believes that it is abundantly clear my husband does not desire such help.

2) because of my husband's stance as a dictator within the business which is both of our livelihoods. He has driven away several employees and others (including myself) have threatened to quit because of his bullying, nasty treatment, power trip, nonsense. He has shown no sign of recognizing this behavior as inappropriate and has said repeatedly that he is no different from any other business owner and believes he is fully within his rights. His sense of entitlement is limitless.

3) because he is able to wipe us both out financially by doing things like driving his motorcycle without the proper endorsement and spending thousands of dollars in a day on stuff we do not need, repeatedly, over and over again, despite having been told the risks.

There's alot more to it than that, but those are the main reasons. Thanks for asking... Helps me to review, because although I know that I have no other responsible choice, it's very, very difficult. I do believe that people can change, but I am certainly not hanging my hopes on the (very slight) possibility that he will. And if he claimed to have changed, I'd have to see consistent fruit of that change for at least a year before I'd begin to take it seriously. That's how bad it is.

I'm outside the circle to the point where I have no trouble now being who I am and standing alone. I don't know whether you've ever been around someone with both add AND npd, but maybe picture that vehicle you were talking about with jet fuel in the tank (add) and a transmission that's geared so low (npd) that if you put regular fuel in it, you'd spend alot of time in 2nd (not sure my analogy is working properly here, but hopefully you'll get my drift.) Imagine that in 2nd gear is where npd would be able to terrorize the daylights out of those nearby, but the jet fuel (add) doesn't allow the vehicle to remain in 2nd for long. (Okay, at this point, I am pretty sure my limited knowledge of how cars work is glaringly obvious).

In other words, npd is in charge, but add doesn't give it enough room to bloom for long? If I can avoid triggering add, then it'll zip on over to the next sweet smelling blossom before npd gets a chance to do its worst. Ugh. What a mess.

OoooBoy....I See

Submitted by kellyj on Mon, 10/06/2014 - 13:49

No really......I see! OK. If you don't mind me saying it ( and something tells me you won't ). I don't see any options here. "0".

I've made some pretty inflammatory statements on this forum in the past about NPD and cluster B disorders based on my own experience with it ( or horror stories, take your pick) And afterwards I felt a moment of hesitation about what I said. I said "a moment"......not much more. No one can understand this experience until you've been there.....and even the eternal optimist that I am cannot overcome what I know to be true.

Just the few things you described in connection to the previous posts and I'm with whatever your councilor is saying. ( and the fact that he's a Christian based councilor speaks volumes at that....the whole marriage until death thing....not dismissing it either )

You can pretty much forget my last post about seperation......or at least the parts about both sides having a chance to see things more clearly

. As you stated "I'm outside the circle to the point where I have no trouble now being who I am and standing alone."

Now you can also understand my comment to you about my family situation when I said " I split the program early ....for survival."

I get it....... even if no one else who reads this understands this.... I for one do!

God speed on your journey, keep the tire side down and the rubber on the road. It's a good day to die!.........I don't think you'll regret it even if you have second thoughts along the way

J, I hope you know how much that means to me

Submitted by Standing on Mon, 10/06/2014 - 14:00

for someone else to understand completely. My kids do. And my counselor. Thank you!

Just a Reminder Standing....

Submitted by kellyj on Tue, 10/07/2014 - 11:53

to remember later on. It's easy to fall prey to feelings of revenge later on ( like you were commenting about my friends wife ) or carry around feeling of anger long after the fact. You're only hurting yourself when you do this and keeping yourself from moving forward.

I read once somewhere and I can't even remember where?....but it said " anger is part of the human condition....but only for 5 minutes or less. Any more than that is a waste of energy."

I liked that one a lot. lol

Take care

Wow, this thread is like a maze

Submitted by Standing on Tue, 10/07/2014 - 21:58

We may need to wear blaze orange and carry whistles in here, if this continues :)

Thank you, J , for your wise reminder. I am not angry, but i know that could change at any moment, so i may need another reminder later lol.

I am a little sad and a little afraid. Okay, maybe medium-sad and medium and a half afraid. But i still know this is the right thing for me to do. That assurance brings alot of relief into the bigger picture. I am confident in not being an angry, vindictive, spiteful person who has simply exceeded her limitations for too long and needs to humble down, drop back, and punt. Also, it has come to my notice that i actually do love my husband. But i love reality more and that is the only place i can live.

Good For You....and I love what you said...

Submitted by kellyj on Wed, 10/08/2014 - 12:27

.... "But i love reality more and that is the only place i can live."

I find this to be true everyday and I am thankful for it too....everyday. The fear and insecurity that comes from not living this way becomes a curse that takes that feeling away no matter how bad things are ( in reality )......nothing can ever be this good no matter how good things may appear living the other way.

I thought about what I said to you yesterday and it was a reminder to myself that much of the anger that I have felt in the past (due to my past) had more to do with me not seeing it at the time... and therefore not doing anything about it like I would today....and then being angry about something that I could not do anything about at the time......or the people involed.......who were only doing (their thing). As if I should have known better? Unfortunately these things are not retroactive and you simply have to live with that simple fact. It's OK feel angry about it for a moment....I think it would be impossible not too.....or not even normal not to. But that's just confirming that you are on the right track. If you take off in other directions outside of that then your moving in the wrong direction.

I also wanted to share a moment I had ( directly related to this maze of a thread )......somehow like the maze inside our heads.....isn't that interesting? lol But it pertained to what I'm saying here about growing up in this NPD/co-dependent situation and also reminding myself that as much as I swore I would never be this way myself.....here I am looking back and seeing the signs of it everywhere along the way....despite myself.

Again....there's simply no one to blame or no one to be angry at. It just is what it is and that's that. That really is reality....and like I said. It just gets better everyday.

I thought about you in light of what you said about having been there before and then now....here you are again. Lessons really do keep repeating themselves until you learn them.....also nothing to get angry about. Just more reality but.......now you don't have to repeat the lesson again! Yayeeee!!!

It's like being angry at your cat for being a cat.....for scratching the furniture because it inconveniences you and it's your favorite piece of furniture. That's pretty silly if you think about it.

I believe this

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Wed, 10/08/2014 - 13:32

I love the truth of living in today. Some choices I made, were made because I didn't know any better. Now I do.

Now I can make better choices.

It is really hard when you are being tugged into the past. I do not want to go there - except to view lessons learned.

I can do nothing about the past - EXCEPT acknowledge it.

Now that I know better, I do better.

Based on what I know today, truly some of the choices I made along the way were poor - but when they were made, they were the right choice. I cannot change that. Again, I can acknowledge it.

Liz

Yep.....Liz

Submitted by kellyj on Wed, 10/08/2014 - 16:22

you can only work with what ya got in that moment. As long as you make your best effort and you know it that's all anyone can do.

(As I swore I would never be

Submitted by c ur self on Wed, 10/08/2014 - 17:38

(As I swore I would never be this way myself.....here I am looking back and seeing the signs of it everywhere along the way....despite myself.)

(It's like being angry at your cat for being a cat.)

This how J describes the reality of him living out his life (I think it fits all mankind) in this present world....And his statement of why be shocked about the fruit of it...It's who we are.

And the Lord smelled a soothing aroma. Then the Lord said in His heart, “I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, even though the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done. Genesis 8:21...

And this is what God said about us after Noah and his family and the animals were finally able to walk off the ark...After a year and 18 or so days on it...

I don't see much difference.

The Thing About the Truth.....

Submitted by kellyj on Wed, 10/08/2014 - 18:38

no matter how you slice it.......it's still bread.

Standing, THIS is the core of my sadness.

Submitted by jennalemone on Wed, 09/30/2015 - 08:48

Standing wrote it so well last year: "What is not manageable is a lack of concern for consequences. I mean, a total lack of concern, not just trouble calculating the cost of an action. An unwillingness to include another human being in the process of planning toward future goals. It's the lone ranger stuff that breaks the bond."

I think this is part of the ....

Submitted by overwhelmedwife on Wed, 09/30/2015 - 14:13

I think this is part of the "now" and "not now" issue with ADHD people.

Deeply emotional

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Mon, 10/06/2014 - 10:12

Standing,

From the view of tears and emotions, my spouse is DEEPLY emotional. Tears run down my spouse's cheek at church when something in a hymn touches his heart. Or something in a movie stirs something in his heart.

Yet, I feel he is immune to anything that causes me to cry. My eye opening moment came that night, just a little over 10 years ago, on the day my 19 year old niece lost her battle with leukemia. At the end of that long, sad day, I was in bed, and swept over with deep grief. I ran downstairs, to where my spouse was sitting in the living room watching TV. I was sobbing, I climbed in his lap - to - to - - - nothing. No arms surrounding me in a hard, tight hug.. No comfort, just a lap to be curled up in - like a big ol' upholstered chair. Yes, I HAD a need that night, and in the end, I had to find my own comfort. Disappointing, but I can find comfort without my spouse. I think that is deeply disappointing, but I can survive. I clearly learned it was MY EXPECTATION of comfort that was dashed.

I had long ago built in an internal dialog of "I will not cry, I will not cry, I WILL not cry. I WILL NOT cry. I - WILL - NOT - CRY." Sad, as he tries to spin those tears into some deep seated mental issue I have or have not. That was a tough wall for me to rip down.

I enjoy my emotions. Tears wash my soul. Tears give me a clean slate for tomorrow. Teas are a signal that "something" is going on inside. Even if that something is "enough already."

I learned to not be betrayed by what I feel. Early in my life, I had such control over my emotions, no one would see me cry, I would be tough and hard, and then. . . . . .go home and stuff myself full of food and barf my guts out. All weekend. Locked alone in my apartment.

Those days of eating disorder struggles taught me a lot about myself. I do not let others have control over my life. I do not jump up and down and scream either. I share my needs. If you want to be with me, respect me, I will respect you, and life can be happy. I have no time to try to "make" people like me, nor "convince" anyone I am worthy to have as an acquaintance.

My children find delight that "Oh, oh, watch out, Mom is gonna cry!" Or they share stories of certain events, and smile with "And boy, you should'a seen Mom cry." They are not nasty, mean digs at me. They are my children's joy in sharing who I am. I love it. I relish it. Yep, it is who I am.

As to my spouse, I live with him. For 29 years. I see him - always. I see how he responds with deep emotion to anything or anyone who he feels has "done him wrong." Have I become immune to it? I don't think so. But for other's, who see this 6' 4" man, who weights 285 pounds, clump up into a sobbing heap when we try to work on a counseling session together, it sure diverts attention to what ever "issue" was at hand - like trying to understand why he has no respect for my space in the barn. His deep display of emotions surely got the session distracted from what I had hoped we could address. Frustrating. I do not know how to deal with that. OBVIOUSLY how sad he was over-ran my hand in the deal.

I cannot compete with that. Then I am perceived as being heartless for not giving that man a hug. I have tried for years to love him out of this difficulty to deal with conflict. I am at a total loss. "Oh my gosh, he is so deeply emotional with all this, how could you even think of wanting to be away from him."

Enraging is what it is. Too much for me to handle. Confusing.

And again I reiterate - this situation in my marriage with my spouse is confusing. I do not have this sort of issue with anyone else. So, at my weakest moment, when I start to think, "Liz what in the Sam Hill is the matter with you, I gently remind myself that it is only with my spouse that I have this problem. And, sadly, my spouse has this problem with many other people.

Do I hurt for him? You bet.

Do I need to value myself? You bet.

Can I find the answer? Not for him, but for me.

Liz

you have worked so very hard, Liz

Submitted by Standing on Mon, 10/06/2014 - 10:30

I cannot imagine a single thing left to be tried or done. Under-emotional, overly-emotional, across the spectrum.. until an individual takes responsibility for his own well-being and stops shifting blame, nothing changes. Peace.

Liz, Look At This Statement

Submitted by kellyj on Mon, 10/06/2014 - 10:54

I do not have this sort of issue with anyone else. So, at my weakest moment, when I start to think, "Liz what in the Sam Hill is the matter with you, I gently remind myself that it is only with my spouse that I have this problem.

You're not alone in this thinking...it's a common one.

It comes from the importance that is placed on your relationship with your husband and what you perceive you need from him.....and/or are not getting for yourself.

It may be because your husband isn't giving these things to you (or getting from the relationship with him).....

But it may also be because what you need (or think you need ) is not something that he can give you realistically or maybe not at all. It may have more to do with the word "need" and possibly your own personal version of just what that is than anything that he is or isn't doing for you.

Or you getting out of your relationship to him based from this vision you have....and possibly holding onto it without looking at other possible versions of the same vision?

I'm saying this because you are looking at the problem and it's right in front of you but it appears that you are not able interpret exactly what you are seeing. I think you need to move a little to the left and then to the right and get a better view at it so you can see it from all sides. Once you're able to do this you will see the whole problem better and it won't be so mysterious to you.

But your the best judge of what to do about it once you can see it better.

I know this feeling. I felt this way for most of my life before I knew I had ADHD. Once I could see it.....I then could actually do something about it but until this happened.....I had the same perplexing nagging feeling that "something was wrong with me".

In a real sense there was if you want to call having ADHD something wrong with you......but that feeling wasn't because of the ADHD....it was from knowing something was there and I just couldn't see what it was so I could understand it in the first place.

That's my two bits

You bet.

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Mon, 10/06/2014 - 11:22

Marriage. At the core. It was my focus. What can I realistically expect from my spouse? Marriage has give and take. I gave and gave and gave and spun in circles trying to be "THE PERFECT" wife.

I really understand the role I played has changed. For the better. For me. I do feel bad - to a point - that I slowly changed from assuming responsibility of being my spouse's all-in-all. From focusing on his every need, filling his every expectation of me, being shaped and formed to fill his desires and needs. I had reached the breaking point - and I said "Enough already."

I am at the place of understanding as to "This is what Liz needs out of this partnership. What do you want out of this relationship? Can it happen? Do you want to work it through? Can WE make it happen"

Saddly, at this very moment in time, I am faced with a man who - from what I can see- insists that I am unreasonable in my requests. That no one else in the world feels like I do. My expectations are too high. I need psychological help."

The tough part is , I WANT to renegotiate. I WANT to re-evaluate. I want to share my needs, and hear if he wants/can fill them. I do not want to be yelled at and told my needs are outlandish. I WANT to go to Plan H, and I, and J, and K, and L, etc., until we find one that works for both of us. I will not be pushed down into oblivion and lose sight of myself.

He wants what he had. Who can blame him? I want what has matured. And evolved. And yes indeed, I am sometimes still kicking myself because I have grown and evolved and matured right out of what I had - or thought I had.

And that is the reality I don't always want to face.

There really is no time continuum. There is not a book that says, "After 1,098 some odd days, the finish-line is today. Or tomorrow.

My deepest desire was to find the new version of US. Not by my rules. Not by HIS demands.

I learned long ago that a person cannot get blood from a turnip - because a turnip has no blood to give.

Finding the new "us." It is what I want. The keen sense I get is that he desperately want s The Old Us." That version costs me too much - of me. So the desperation I feel sometimes - not always, but sometimes is "I realize he just cannot see how much of myself I gave up to be who I was. Now, as I enjoy my comfort and peace in me, enjoy that I can find comfort without him, know I could make it without him - I really and truly do not want to choose to do it. With out him.

So that there is the rub. :)

And I gotta choose to focus on this economics class and business law class in college. They are kicking my butt!!!!! I ask for support by help in lightening my responsibility work load, and he doesn't say no, but he doesn't say yes either. But he did remind me he carries the lion's share of the responsibility.

Still seeking wisdom, still hoping that rock falls on my head to enlighten me.

Glad I have this forum to hash this over. Glad I have others who want to point out what I do not see. Glad I have the ability to read the hard stuff that people help me see - and it help me expand and grow. thanks for that!

Liz

The truth as I see it, too

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Mon, 10/06/2014 - 11:40

Thanks for that!

This is why I do not fear putting myself out here, pouring out mu words, so maybe someone can see what I keep missing. Someone will say, "Look here Liz. You missed the forest for the trees."

I am willing. I am able. I am glad if one little sentence out of 5 paragraphs of babble are what is truly important. I WANT to find my mistakes. I WANT to discover what I am missing. I want!!!!!!!

Thanks for reading my stuff, and helping me dissect it.

Liz

It's a bad case over here

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Sun, 10/05/2014 - 22:10

"But now we're referring back to your husband and his Narcissism......what about Liz's husband? Are we so sure that's what this is with him? I think this could be a combination of things so the stance your taking ( which I agree with ) with your husband may not be the right one with him? Back to testing the water to see if fits?"

These are the sort of things that get me into trouble. I really believe I got a bad case of 'the tail waggin' the dog.' I feel hornschwaggled a lot. It gets embarrassing for me.

Today my spouse was sharing how hard it is for him to see our son allowing 2 other people to store things in the barn on his new property - but our son will not let my spouse. Truth of the matter is that we have learned that my spouse's hoarding tendencies and lack of boundary respect have trained us to know that we know that we know - that ONE thing, will soon be 2 and then 3 and then, he will slowly take over. If we try to remind him of the boundary, he will lose it, and yell and scream at us. Truly "If we give him an inch, he takes 10 miles." I tried to share that with him. He couldn't hear it. His brain couldn't receive it. He just sees injustice to him.

The one person will be renting from my son, and so their classic car was moved in for storage. Not to mention, our son is a mechanic, and will also be working on the car in his 'new garage' - his barn.The other person is in the midst of building a house, and needed to store the insulation he bought at an auction. There is no reason for our son to doubt these people will respect his boundaries and space. Surely, he COULD be proven wrong, but probably not.

It really does rip out my heart that we cannot help my spouse to see that his behavior is uncomfortable to be around. He just does not see it - for nothin'. He seems clueless, and yells. And then sits in bewilderment that we don't want to participate in things with him. Hard to be at the mercy of a grenade that will blow without rhyme or reason.

Is their responsibility he needs to be taking? I think so.

Liz

Your library, Liz

Submitted by Standing on Sun, 10/05/2014 - 23:15

Sounds like you have one :). But if you don't have these, they may be of help. Both are by Henry Cloud.

Never Go Back and Necessary Endings. That one i got on Kindle today. It's not about divorce; more about change and new directions.

All alone in his thinking

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Sun, 10/05/2014 - 21:39

Standing,

"The only thing i can surmise is that he has just had a lengthy convo with you in his head during which the imaginary you berated him for being a failure. All i know is, 98 % of the time my husband takes this approach, i haven't even had such thoughts, much less said the words."

I have literally heard my spouse doing this out-loud. "Why bother calling my brother. I will say so-and-so and then he will say so-and-so, and then I will say so-and-so, then he will throw so-and-so in my face, and it will never be any different."

That is so unfair - I feel bad he just decides lots of things for lots of people. And, he of course, is correct and whoever the other person is, is wrong. Wrongo.

What a horrible way to live.

Liz

It sounds like flawed logic.

Submitted by copingSAH on Sun, 10/05/2014 - 12:31

It sounds like flawed logic. We all need someone who is there who can remind us that we're not the crazy ones, even if we are slowly being driven crazy. :)

Your dh seemed to want to discuss (numbers) right there and then BUT he did not communicate it properly and left it an open-ended request.

Since you could not read his mind and were just about to go about your own chore (which became his trigger), it became obvious to him it was going to be easy to bait you with his dysfunction. So there's a fair amount of unconscious gaslighting and a narcissistic drive to inflict confusion onto the spouse (my experience, I need to reflect the same confusion he's feeling).

In order for (me) not to get pulled into the baiting, I would have to drop everything to deal with his needs. But I know he would NOT do the same for me. So it is a constant state of accommodation of spouse's flawed logic, confused thinking and what I can see as pettiness at the lowest level.

In other words there are EPISODES OF BRUTAL INCIVILITY that the ADD is unaware of. (I'm talking only of ADD spouses that are constantly angered, not every one with ADD -- most are only distracted and civilized human beings!)

For instance, we purchased a replacement toilet seat which he installed himself. He unwrapped it. He placed it on the toilet. He screwed in the nuts/bolts. There was silence for a while. Then he called me up to the bathroom. Then he SCREAMED and HOLLERED at me at the top of his lungs that the toilet seat was the wrong one and didn't fit. And it was my fault for choosing it, dumb wench!

uhm..... FLAWED LOGIC!!

I wonder why he couldn't just eyeball the toilet seat and SEE right then and there it was the wrong shape. And stop there.

I wonder why he couldn't have just left the toilet seat there and asked me up to take a look to confirm it was the wrong shape.

I wonder why he could even install the entire toilet seat without once realizing it was incompatible with the toilet itself??

This is the kind of crazy flawed logic only we spouses are subjected to in private. This was the ADD opportunity to turn it all on me and blame me for such a stupid stupid move. Installing the seat was *stupider* than getting the wrong seat! :)

My son came in this morning during another one of those flawed logic moments... and he said :

"Mom, just know you cannot fix what can't be fixed, and leave it at that." (dad's ADD is his. don't let it take over)

My gosh, the voice of logic in these dreadful moments... I find I'm starting to become what I fear -- what I've been exposed to, for too long -- and that is becoming completely irrational myself.

Coping

Submitted by Standing on Sun, 10/05/2014 - 16:03

My son says that, too. I am finally getting his drift.

AND I have also bought the wrong toilet seat. No backlash for me, but I did have to return it for the proper shaped one and install it myself.

I hope you never again stay in the same room with him long enough under such conditions for him to get out 3 screaming words at you.

Wow!

Submitted by I'm So Exhausted on Sun, 10/05/2014 - 21:48

copingSAH,

Sigh. This is so much a mirror image of how things happen - except for the mean name calling.

"In other words there are EPISODES OF BRUTAL INCIVILITY that the ADD is unaware of. (I'm talking only of ADD spouses that are constantly angered, not every one with ADD" Just reading this description, spelled out in words exactly what I feel. I my heart and souls just has been beaten down to a pulp, I can't take it. And it feels as thought when I try to explain that, especially in counseling, it feels as though I am being perceived as being stubborn and unwilling to move from my place of "something has really gotta give from his end fin order for me to want to choose to pursue this much further." It's like, why would anyone want to try to understand how to live in unfriendly circumstances? Or how many alternative ways can I try to see how my own actions "add to this mayhem.?"

I am not confused. Or am I? Sigh.

Liz

Holy Cow, You Folks Have Been Busy!!

Submitted by tfarmer on Wed, 10/08/2014 - 22:38

I read this entire thread. There is a lot of very good info here! I would like to ask a question and share a quick insight.

Do any of you know if NPD is diagnosed during childhood or is it primarily in adults? I ask this because my son has Aspergers. Some of the traits listed here as NPD are common with autism spectrum symptoms, particularly empathy. I am wondering about the frequency of spectrum disorders and ADHD both being present.

Like many of you here I have read everything I could find on ADHD. I am hyper-analytical and a recovering electrical engineer. I was able to develop a reasonable understanding of ADHD and even predict my wife's behaviors. To my surprise this caused me even more frustration as for some reason my wife was not really open to my profound observations. ; )

Then something occurred to me. If we dissect a frog we can certainly learn a great deal about the frog, it's constituent parts, and even the elements that make up it's body. But that frog will never jump.again. I came to realize that I can only disassemble. To put it back together takes much more than my abilities.

We have recently become active in a new church, more than just butts in a pew. Active in small groups, bible study, etc. I have witnessed my wife become more self aware and open to discussing ADHD than I have seen in the last two years. It is remarkable.

I have also realized the path to victimhood begins with lack of forgiveness. In my case I refused to forgive my wife for all the things she does, or does not do, because of ADHD.

Consequently my anger and resentment became cumulative. It gets to the point that it is almost like placing a ball and chain on your ankle and handing the ADHD person the ball to let them lead you around. That is just nuts! Forgiveness has liberated me from the ball and chain and restored our relationship. The result is a peace we have not known together for some time.

So with these things I have seen some very positive progress over the last few months. In a sense, all my learning, observations, and insights into my wife's ADHD were simply like asking a fish what it is like to be wet. Without some external objective reference, in her case the bible, she would be unable to step back and see herself ... or the giant.

tfarmer

Submitted by c ur self on Thu, 10/09/2014 - 00:52

From one unappreciated hyper-analytical to another...Praise the Lord for self awareness for us all!....Sorry I don't know the answer to your question, but, I will be interested if someone does know.

Hi tfarmer...You're Back Too

Submitted by kellyj on Thu, 10/09/2014 - 09:30

I remember talking to you about some of these things before....and I think I might understand where some of your questions are coming from because I've had some of them myself. I don't have the official clinical answers that you may be looking for but I may have some insight as I have had some of the same thoughts and questions about NPD myself over the years since it was relevant to me as well.

As far as children being diagnosed or the relationship to Aspergers is concerned I'm sorry I can't be of much help.....but I have observed and even commented to people ( not on this forum ) that someone with NPD is remarkably similar to a 3 year old in many respects......they are completely self absorbed in respect to their needs and wants and have not yet developed any real sense outside of themselves in this respect to even have the ability to have empathy for others or the ability to understand this concept. I've found it interesting how well this simple observation holds true if you carry it forward to an adult with Narcissism. In the case with a 3 years old.....this is just a normal stage of human development and we all can easily recognize it as being just that. We also know that children move past this stage over time in a relatively predictable pattern. In other words ......they grow up or grow out of this stage.

I've pondered this analogy about thinking in terms of "development" or "underdeveloped" and I have wondered if this has anything to do with it? If this is true then diagnosing a child or even an adolescent would be difficult since they have not gone through ( or had time to develop) the normal human stages that we all go through in order for NPD to really show itself ( or contrast itself ) the same as it does for an adult. Does this makes any sense?

Taking this a step further.....I do know that nurture has a role in this and if nurture somehow perverts this process in some way it can be a contributing factor but the results of NPD will not show up until later on using the model that I just described.

I'm cobbling together some of my own thoughts and observations combined with a few real facts and things I've learned along the way so this really could be way off the mark in trying to answer your question.

I do find it interesting to see the correlation and for nothing more.......it helps me understand things in a way that at least I can see and then possibly use to understand NPD on a conceptual level at the very least even if it is not entirely accurate or have any real scientific correlation to fact.

In other words......it helps me paint a picture that I can see but more importantly......use to do something about it.

Doing something about it means not taking things personally and being objective to it.

It also helps me see these things in myself as I have many times ( somewhat jokingly) using the phrase " he who smelt it, dealt it " when confronted with someone who is being overtly self righteous and indignant about someone else while at the same time..... are doing the same thing but without awareness of this fact.

My last comment to C Ur Self having to do with "swearing I would never be this way" in part is where this comes from. It can get too easy to start picking out what might be considered "normal" amounts of human selfishness and call everything NPD or some other maladjustment to psychology without really understanding more about it.

I will admit that I now see in myself where my ADHD comes into play in regards to appearing disconnected to others needs especially in the "amount" of connection or empathy I have the ability to muster at any given time. I think this appears more from being hyper focused ( or oblivious lol) to other people when I'm in that state which you might call "temporary Narcissism" maybe by appearance from the outside only. But I also know that this is something that you can do something about in ways to improve. The capacity for empathy is not missing but it can get diverted by being distracted. I do see this clearly in myself a lot and have learned to recognize it and then react by pulling my attention or focus back to being outside myself. Like anything else it gets better with practice.

People with NPD appear to have no problem ( or no need in practicing anything) as they will tell you immediately that there is "nothing wrong with them." end of story.

However...... being unaware is just simply being unaware no matter what the reason for it. It all looks selfish, self serving or self absorbed from the outside.

I also like what my therapist said to me once ( he's a PHD if that matters)....in saying that the parts of the brain that involve and control the thing we're talking about are physically still there ( unless they are damaged by some kind of trauma or otherwise) in everyone and like any other muscle or part of the body can be atrophied by not being exercised....or underdeveloped. But that doesn't mean by the same token, that these parts can't be re-ignited an exercised back into use by the same means. I found this concept to be not only interesting but on a real cognitive level somehow immediately relating to this very feeling inside myself as well. Years of conditioning and training my body for competition in swimming has shown me just how far you can train your body and as they say.....your brain is just another muscle inside your body......everytime you exercise it you're also exercising your brain as well. I know this fact is true simply by observing how much exercise helps with all my ADHD symptoms across the board. It really is a miracle drug for everything that ails you!

Anyway.....repetition and training your brain so to speak is really effective for me with my ADHD in a concentrated focused strategy and I can see the results and signs of improvement in the areas of staying connected to people I'm around. I think when the connection is lost...so is the empathy and focus on the outside which is different than NPD or ASPD where there doesn't appear to be a "loss of connection" in this way.

On the contrary......preditory NPD or ASPD appears to be extremely connected and observant to others.....and/or their weakness in an almost uncanny sense without any problem with staying focused in that way. It's really easy for me to make this distinction in myself as I'm so aware of my "connect"- "disconnect" way of being. All I need is to pay attention to it and practice making this transition easier and smoother so it doesn't get in the way of my ability to stay connected to people consistently on an emotional level.

npd

Submitted by Standing on Thu, 10/09/2014 - 09:18

Hi, tfarmer,

From what I've read, an official npd diagnosis belongs to about 1% of the population. It is not ordinary, run of the mill self-centeredness, but rather a pervasive, generally unshakeable inability to recognize other people as anything other than extensions designed to serve self. Also, I've read, that it is not to be confused with ego-centricism. If you look up the dsm criteria for a diagnosis of npd, you'll see the bigger picture. As far as how often it is comorbid with add... sounds like it is not a bit unusual. Some experts have broken down npd into subtypes. One of these is Compensatory Narcissism. You've heard of folks who compensate for self-perceived deficiencies? Well, this is that - and then some.

Seems like this starts in childhood, but cannot really be diagnosed till adulthood, since all kids are basically narcissistic up to a certain age. In many ways, someone with npd never progresses beyond the age of 6. Hope that helps.

On edit - lol >>> J ! I will now read your post!

Wow Standing.....You Just Said the Sames Thing....

Submitted by kellyj on Thu, 10/09/2014 - 09:53

almost simultaneously but with fewer words. What a surprise! ha ha ha Still laughing at myself. ha ha

I've never been one to find a loss for words! ha ha

And yes.....there are a number of versions of NPD. I haven't run across Compensatory NPD before.....which as I do, will be looking up shortly! lol

FYI: My therapist speculates that my father for example, had some Antisocial components in combination to his version.....a rather unpleasant and somewhat nastier version to say the least at times. ouch!

I know that in part......this is where my temper comes from in respect to displaying anger which is what brought me here to this forum to learn to understand it and stop it completely.....also in connection to swearing I would never be that way but seeing bits and pieces of it in myself unfortunately in respects to the anger parts if nothing else.....or at least the level of displaying it even if it only shows itself in rare circumstances. It's just mean and nasty and I don't like it or myself when I see this come out of me. It reminds me too much of what I remember and it also shows me just how susceptible we all are from to our unconscious programming even when we cognitively disagree with it.

Facinating Stuff Standing

Submitted by kellyj on Thu, 10/09/2014 - 13:31

Here's a couple of excerpts that I found that give you a good feeling for Compensatory Narcissism:

:
Excerpts from http://www.ptypes.com/

Pervasive pattern of unstable, "overtly narcissistic behaviors [that] derive from an underlying sense of insecurity and weakness rather than from genuine feelings of self-confidence and high self-esteem."

Has ten or more of the following:

– seeks to create an illusion of superiority and to build up an image of high self-worth (Millon);
– has disturbances in the capacity for empathy (Forman);
– strives for recognition and prestige to compensate for the lack of a feeling of self-worth;
– may acquire a deprecatory attitude in which the achievements of others are ridiculed and degraded (Millon);
– has persistent aspirations for glory and status (Millon);
– has a tendency to exaggerate and boast (Millon);
– is sensitive to how others react to him or her, watches and listens carefully for critical judgment, and feels slighted by disapproval (Millon);
– is prone to feel shamed and humiliated and especially hyper-anxious and vulnerable to the judgments of others (Millon);
– covers up a sense of inadequacy and deficiency with pseudo-arrogance and pseudo-grandiosity (Millon);
– has a tendency to periodic hypochondria (Forman);
– alternates between feelings of emptiness and deadness and states of excitement and excess energy (Forman);
– entertains fantasies of greatness, constantly striving for perfection, genius, or stardom (Forman);
– has a history of searching for an idealized partner and has an intense need for affirmation and confirmation in relationships (Forman);
– frequently entertains a wishful, exaggerated, and unrealistic concept of himself or herself which he or she can't possibly measure up to (Reich);
– produces (too quickly) work not up to the level of his or her abilities because of an overwhelmingly strong need for the immediate gratification of success (Reich);
– is touchy, quick to take offense at the slightest provocation, continually anticipating attack and danger, reacting with anger and fantasies of revenge when he or she feels frustrated in his or her need for constant admiration (Reich);
– is self-conscious, due to a dependence on approval from others (Reich);
– suffers regularly from repetitive oscillations of self-esteem (Reich);
– seeks to undo feelings of inadequacy by forcing everyone's attention and admiration upon himself or herself (Reich);
– may react with self-contempt and depression to the lack of fulfillment of his or her grandiose expectations (Riso).

And something I found interesting:
Associated Disorders

Hypochondria (Reich, pg. 47; Mellow, pp. 14-15, 22, 280, 344, 432, 437, 441-42).

Psychosis, addictions, depression; paranoia, obsessions, compulsions, impulsivity; conversion disorder, phobia, psychosomatic symptoms, inhibition; creative inhibition, inertia; delinquent behavior, gender identity disorders, psychotic episodes; schizoid personality disorder, distantiation, racism; mid-life crisis, premature invalidism; extreme alienation, despair (Newton & Newton, pg. 482).

and

the Compensatory Narcissist might actually seem more like a Narcissist at the surface level than the pwNPD. The Compensatory Narcissist consciously acts like they have something to prove. The pwNPD is doing so subconsciously, so the behaviors will be slightly different, less detectable at first glance. The Compensatory Narcissist tells everyone about the expensive restaurant at which they just had dinner, because they are consciously attempting to prove that they can afford to eat there, or that they are special enough to be taken there. The pwNPD takes you to dinner at the expensive restaurant, and then acts hurt when you don't like his choice of venues, because he consciously believes his choices are objectively the best at all times, and he secretly devalues you when you suggest you didn't care for the food.

All of this goes back to the pwNPD's Narcissism being more internal. The pwNPD consciously believes in his own rightness, sense of entitlement, etc, because his Narcissism is actually being directed by the inadequate subconscious "director" that lies within. While the Compensatory Narcissist is acutely aware of their own insecurities and is trying to make up for them on purpose.

Right off the bat my gut reaction to this was.....Uh oh. I see my self in some ( but certainly not all ) of the 10 things listed. So I'm basically doing to myself what I'm saying is easy to do even if in part I'm right.

The part that right is that all of this comes out of insecurity and low self esteem from the git go.....but on a deeply unresolved level I think. That's what you mentioned about the 1% of the population actually being diagnosed with bull blown NPD. It's rare to find that in a pure form absolutely.

Without rehashing the excerpts, I did however come to some quick conclusions about myself to why I saw this and went uh oh.....or at least in relationship to having ADHD and my experience with it plus the addition of living with a NPD parent.....not the compensatory kind.

For me ....my ADHD was an "inconvenience" for a NPD parent and the devaluing came early and consistently. That's a fact! From there it's easy to see why someone would develop a complex involving self- esteem......not too hard to figure out. lol

If it weren't for a couple of major factors in my particular situation....I can easily see the direction I could have gone in and one possible direction would have been the very things that are listed here. I think this is useful to say the least in respects to someone who has ADHD. It also helps me explain some of "bits and pieces" thing that I have mentioned but at the same time feeling like this kind of thing doesn't really fit either......saying or admitting.....that I done some of these things or been this way in the past even if I have to go back to my adolescence in some cases to see them. But that doesn't mean I don't see a pattern which also points out that people personalities I think many times become a whole list of bit's and piece's of this stuff and when you lay all the cards on the table in front of you ....you can see where the consistencies are even if you still might be a fully functioning person that doesn't qualify for some kind of disorder.

Back my situation that in part......you were asking me about in another post as why I was the way I am and in the moment not having an exact answer. I think I have a better one for you now as I am relating to this.

Optimism...it comes from success and I had enough at an early age not to have lost it. Specifically....I had a good deal of stand out artistic talents that stood out enough to be recognized at a very early age. This was huge for me. I had at least something I could believe that I was good at and it was being confirmed in some real ways ie; from teachers, winning contests and from my mother at least who would always confirm this to me.

and

sports specifically swimming...even though I was not at the top of my peers to start with..... over time got good enough to again prove to myself that I had some value and also learned how to get it even if I didn't have to begin with through hard work and effort. Again...huge.

And the third thing was not spending a lot of time at home around the source of the problem (splitting the program again) ie....spending lots of time with my friends and their families who adopted me as kind of "one of theirs".

So ..in other words, getting validation and confirmation that I had value from other sources (including my swim coach who was more of a father figure to me than my own father was) and from other parents of my friends. This also include establishing long term friendships in childhood that I have maintained until this day.

So to put it simply........I appeared to have won the war enough, that I most definitely fought along the way with low self esteem and in part....it's source (ADHD) .....and the exacerbating component ( my NPD father ) by getting real life compensation and validation in some very real concrete and undeniable ways. Undeniable to myself of course which is what is relevant to what we're discussing.

But that's not saying that I didn't lose a lot of battles and with it and the lasting effect of the those losses. I think it boils down to a matter of degree in everything like this.

My therapist said it simply as " some how, some where you found it in yourself that you were worth it"....which pretty much says the same thing.

But to reiterate the point and admitting the things I saw here....I can easily see how this could have gone wrong if my circumstance had been different. And if they had I could see things going into the direction of this list pretty easily....back to the bits and peices.

I said this in another post but all of this stems from insecurity and I believe that to be true in so many things.

And for anything else.....I'm writing this down here to you not so much as a means of therapy in this case but to give you or anyone else reading this in search of clues or answers about a partner with ADHD in an effort to narrow down the ADHD parts from all the rest as I have done ( and am still trying to do ) for myself.

For what's it's worth.

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