I couldn't take it any longer, and my 11 & 12 year old sons begged me to give in and let dad have a divorce, so I agreed to a divorce. H hasn't moved out yet, so the fighting has escalated exponentially, and things are really bad. He's medicating now, and in therapy for the first time. He says the medication is a miracle, and likes the counseling but cut me out of it right away, hence another reason for my agreeing to the divorce, I told him if he cut me out it was over. But now he's taken to saying that the reason he's been threatening me with a divorce for 23 years is because I've been calling him names, making fun of his job, ridiculing him and making fun of him in public and in social settings. Now I know, for a fact, that this is not true. I actually went to my adult children and asked them if this was even possible, and they were appalled at the suggestion. At one point a couple years ago he accused me of saying, doing and thinking things so much that I was evaluated for strokes and alzheimers, he hadn't been diagnosed with ADD at that point. In his mind, he's always interpreted everything I say as an insult, a cut, as me calling him "a piece of shit" or "worthless". And nothing I could ever say would change his mind, and I couldn't combat it. But now, he's saying that I actually used the words lazy, worthless, stupid, etc. and it's not true. Is there any way to change this, or is he going to believe this forever? Because I know he is moving out soon, and he will tell people this, he's telling my family this (he's estranged my entire family from me), he'll tell my children this, and although I shouldn't care I do. He's the best friend anyone could ever want and nobody understands how emotionally and psychologically abusive he's been, and because I'm a lawyer and he's a blue collar worker, it's easy for people to believe that I'm just like he describes and he's the victim. I just wanted to part friends, I wanted to be one of the friends he has, to be a priority for a change, to be important to him. I was okay losing my marriage if it meant we could have a healthy relationship and all the emotional & psychological abuse stopped, and I wouldn't have to deal with the lies, the mind reading, and the ADD. Now it's worse! Will the medication help him organize his thoughts about our earlier marriage? or just his life going forward?
Will old "memories" go away or stay forever?
Submitted by Strangebird on 03/21/2015.
Hello. I am not married, i am
Submitted by yuna.18 on
Hello. I am not married, i am just a young woman. I can not say to you it is going to be like this way or that way in the future. But the secondary problems because of ADHD is much more worse than ADHD itself. In life everything affects every little thing. For ADHD, it causes secondary problems.But not because its biological nature. ADHD people behave in a way that is different from non- ADHDers. And sometimes their past experiences causes them to think they are worthless, etc. These kind of things causes loops. From my own experiences the mind reading, to blame for feeling him like he is worthless, they are all secondary problems that come with ADHD. The person that i loved, with ADHD, he was like that way too. The medication for ADHD is not enough to fix the secondary problems. If he takes extra help, like psychological support, he can improve himself, but again, its just my opinion. Good luck.
Offensive Guard
Submitted by jennalemone on
Yes, phrases dh would use right from the beginning of our marriage were: "You can't make a silk purse our of a sow's ear", "Yeah, I'm just a loser to you aren't I?', "Kick the bum out....that's what you think, isn't it?" These were in the days when I was building him UP. Every word you wrote, I could say is the same here. He would say quite often, "The best defense is a good offense." Now I realize he was offensive to me many times in his "defense".
Hi, jennalemone. How are
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
Hi, jennalemone. How are things going for you?
Still here and angy
Submitted by jennalemone on
Hi Rosered and all, I am going to a counselor at this old age. Trying to take ownership for my own decisions in life and my own direction from here. Learning a lot so that I can talk sensibly and lovingly to my children and grandchildren about life and love. Going places in my brain where i have been denying and rationalizing so that I could cope and enable rather than fight and blaze new trails. Realizing that maybe there are people who would be better suited to my dh than me. Trying to stop blaming dh for how he has been and trying to build my positive story to an acceptable version I can live with. Trying to figure out how/why I tried to change my own self to better fit with the marriage and what do I now that I realize that I was not true to my self and wellness. Realizing that I can not change someone else to be like I would like my marriage to be. Accepting that everyone's life has challenges. I am very angry right now. Now that I am getting clearer about how things were and how I was. Very angry. Trying to find out where my happy person went if it is not too late to find her. Counselors like to go to our childhood to see where our weaknesses are. My childhood was ok I thought but I guess I was the "good girl" who was expected to enable other family members to be who THEY were....I was the tool of making things ok for them, working, helping, being good.....so I didn't rebel enough. I thought I had rebelled during during my 20's but I guess I needed to fight and rebel even more to get the idea in my head and heart that I could make my own decisions for my life even though those decisions might hurt someone else. So I have been sacrificing as I was taught to do so often. Hard to change thinking and habits.
I have not been writing because a few months ago my computer crashed and I had to buy a new one. I could not get back into the site with my old code name so as you can see I gave myself a similar new one. I have been keeping up reading your and others entries. So often I wish we could all get together in person. Let's all go to London to hear Melissa speak. Or maybe some place closer.
To Strangebird
Submitted by jennalemone on
Sorry to go off on a tangent on your topic. I guess having others on this site for an audience with a understanding background or at least similar situations is helpful so that we are heard - that is helpful. It lets us know that we are not crazy or too needy but that there actually are real problems of communication and thinking that are beyond our own abilities to make sense of alone. Please keep writing and sharing. Some of our spouses are so charming and playful that we can understand why other people like them lots who do have to partner with them.
I think you and I may be
Submitted by Strangebird on
I think you and I may be kindred spirits. I am the good girl, in fact my brother calls me the "good sister", I take care of everyone to my own detriment. I'm in the process of building myself a "she-cave". I'm obsessed with sewing and upholstering and I'm making my bedroom into a haven, reupholstering old furniture, building an ottoman and bed frame, and it's all in vintage chenille lol. I'm going to retreat with my needlepoint and try to cure my anger. I don't know how to interact with people any longer. My sister, who was my closest friend and confidant, has been alienated from me and communicates with me via text and has decided that my anger consumes my life and my perception of everything is wrong and tainted by my anger. But she's taking calls from my H on the side, and not from me. My childhood was abusive and I don't want to examine it, I'm 55 years old and I've wasted enough time on people who treat me like crap, I want to start enjoying life and being happy. I want to find a counselor who can help me understand that this man's perception was skewed, and I never treated him like crap, or called him names, or made him feel like dirt, that it was all in his head and that's on him. I want someone who can help me learn to teach my kids how to deal with him when he starts to do this to them, because I believe he will. I want to get up in the morning and just get in the car and go somewhere beautiful for the fun of it because I want to. I want to clean the bathroom, without hearing that I'm doing it because he's a lazy piece of shit that did a crappy job (no, it just needs done more than once every 2 weeks lol and it's not all your responsibility) I want to be happy. I feel very alone and isolated, and I feel like I can't tell anyone what I experience with him because he's such a great, charming, hard working guy in every other aspect of his life.
Throwing out the old untrustworthy map and finding new roads
Submitted by jennalemone on
My sister, who was my closest friend and confidant is also distant and critical of me. When we were young, we would often have half-funny complaint sessions about things in life including our dhs. Then one year, she turned and said, "We like dh. It's you we can't stand." As though my sisters had been talking and made a decision about me and now I am not included in many of the gettogethers that are planned without me. I am like an outsider. They have not told me what they believe is wrong with me other than to say I am too serious. I think it is partly because I complained too much and looked too sad too often.... I should have made changes in my youth rather than cope and rationalize and stuff it and work so hard. I lost my ability to play and be light. I have become weak and quiet rather than the energized, determined young person I once was. And dh has eked by with keeping to himself and smiling. It makes me so angry that he has gotten away with jokes and lies and irresponsibility and now seems to be a happy puppyl to everyone while I am resentful and incredulous that life rewards smiling and joking over integrity, work and commitment. My work is to be my own best friend now and permit myself to let things go and be happier. When I am married to dh, it is like I can never get very comfy or complacent or content. I have learned to have diligence because I am tied to someone who is secretive and untrustworthy behind the smile. I either feel stupid to go hand and hand into an abyss with him or I feel like a mother with a naughty boy who must be watched and organized or we will all be embaressed and in poverty. My anger is this: I feel like a failure and stupid. I feel like all the things I was taught about how to be good and live life have been a tool mean people teach nice people so that the nice people will serve them and their egos. It seems that he was taught warfare lessons of offensive stance, speaking up loudly and cussedly, doing what you want when you want, not caring too much about what other people think or want or need. Just doing your own thing. I am upset because it seems to me the world is upside down from what I was taught. From what I learned in Girl Scouts, our culture, my family and church. Should we be teaching young girls new lessons on how to be tough, stong, verbally spar and stand up for themselves and stop being subservient? I guess that IS what is happening. I was so afraid someone might think I was a "b" or a nag. Now I must change those attitudes to the year 2015 and join the young "in your face" girls. It is just something I don't have the stomach or the heart for....being nice had been so ingrained in me. But it is work I must do to survive sanely. Being nice in offensive situations means being mistreated more.
Yet, I liked the old me. I like nice, cooperative people and don't wish to see a world of twerking butts, middle finger salutes and mouthy demands. I have to swing the pendulum out there, find my voice and come to a balance of strong kindness and love.
Its not about him anymore. Its about me. Something in me has died and my work is to try to get myself back.
Before I even get into
Submitted by s00manyquestions on
Before I even get into reading your thread...just want to say: Love your starter!! ....Throwing out the old untrustworthy map and finding new roads. Love it. Eager to hear what you have to say.
Sounds Familiar
Submitted by kellyj on
" My anger is this: I feel like a failure and stupid. I feel like all the things I was taught about how to be good and live life have been a tool mean people teach nice people so that the nice people will serve them and their egos. It seems that he was taught warfare lessons of offensive stance, speaking up loudly and cussedly, doing what you want when you want, not caring too much about what other people think or want or need. "
In my past marriage....I went from being relatively easy going, more or less happy and feeling pretty good about myself in general to.....angry, tense and feeling poorly about myself. When my ex left me for someone else ( out of the blue ).....after the initial shock and depression went away....I went back to how I was to begin with.
What's wrong with this picture?
I won't leave you hanging here because I know the answer after this was explained to me by a therapist. My ex was suffered from aspects related to Borderline Personality Disorder. Why did I pick her you ask? Good question. Because I was raised by parents who suffered from similar tendencies and it was somewhat familiar feeling to me when I first met my ex. At first she was great....later, the dark side of this personality starts to emerge and I went back in time ( regressed ) to where I was when I was young with my parents. Basically...feeling poorly about myself because of how I was teated back then. I was undiagnosed for all of this and from my parents view....I was misbehaving and choosing to act in ways they found unacceptable. I realize now most of what they saw was ADHD but no one knew back then. Their answer......"punish and/or abuse this behavior out him until he until he straightens up." Consequently, you begin to believe you are defective and bad. But when I was not around my parents out in the world.....I found that I didn't feel this way so much. Duh. It seems pretty simply but yet...not so easy to figure out without the help of a therapist to fill in the blanks.
I responded to you because I could read this all over the place in your post especially the parts about feeling "stupid and a failure." My guess is that you are far from being either one in fact......just the opposite or you wouldn't be here figuring these things out on your own which does not appear stupid or not what someone who is trying to succeed does. Being a failure is someone who does not try and therefore.....never appears to fail.
What I found in my experience is that it is really hard to succeed when you are around someone who is holding you back....holding you back because subconsciously, they don't want you to succeed of do better than they are doing....like as if you are in competition with them to see who will win in succeeding. It's Fucked up to say the least! ( 'scuse my French ).
Its not about him anymore. Its about me. Something in me has died and my work is to try to get myself back.
Step one.....your already on your way. Excellent!
Step two.....there's a reason why you feel angry and why you feel poorly about your self....for good reason. That something that has died ( remembering my own process here)....it's the image of what you thought you're H was or what he presented to you to believe.
I tend to oversimplify things for myself as a reminder to myself for future reference...how I see my ex or other people like this as "phonies" to put it simply. Someone who's actions do not match up with their words....who will tell you one thing about themselves but does something entirely different. Who never appears to take joy in your joy and usually will "shit on your parade" whenever that happens and always seems to put themselves ahead of you and try an keep you there....holding you back when you begin to do well and achieve ahead of them like a competition. I get it.....been there.
In reality....wouldn't it make logical sense that two people together who are working for the same goal and doing there best at it would together...do better than they would do alone? Doesn't seem illogical that you would do worse than you did before you were with someone after you are? There are reasons for this and you are not loosing your mind.
For me....I just hadn't learned any of this before. Now that I know.....I do my best to pay attention to it to make sure it is not happening again. Whenever I start feeling worse about myself after I am around someone else ( and not acting in a way where I deserve to be this feel this way fo to my own behavior) but in general...don't feel this way. I know that there's usually a good reason for it and I'm not buying it any more.
The best indicator for me now...that someone who falls into one of the personality issues like I described is.....the better I do and feel about myself...the harder they try and sabotage this in a variety of overt disrespectful and harmful ways.
Your job is to not let them by simply staying on course and making yourself immune to it. It doesn't matter what they do....your H in your case. If you are following all of the things you described about yourself that appear to be really good ones...then you shouldn't feel bad about yourself. What makes you feel bad is when you are acting in ways that you don't approve of or like yourself....or anyone else! Don't allow other people to manipulate you into doing that...they're only doing it to make themselves appear better because they inherently....don't feel good about themselves inside probably most of the time. That's why it feels like they are competing with you...because they are! Your feeling are telling you this but they are acting or saying that they're not. Bullshit! Your feelings are right...go with them and see them differently instead of yourself.
That's how to find your way back to yourself......step two.
My therapist has given me one standing assignment and I now have this engrained into everyday now no matter what I do or who I am with: "Don't make anything you do contingent on anyone else." That means....you don't have to be either a Bitch or a Nag unless that is who you are and how you see yourself
When I do this....I not only do not feel badly about myself, I find that I am nicer and treat other people better too and......people who fall into the category of the ones I described have little to no effect on me....fundamentally, I become indifferent to them ( unless they start acting out in ways that directly affect me that I need to take some kind of action to correct) Otherwise....it's like water off the back of a Duck :)
I liked the old me too which is where I am right now.....ADHD and all. FYI: It does appear like a lot of ladies here on this site have partners who appear in similar ways but.....I'm here to tell you, this is not due to ADHD. A person can have ADHD and not be this way too. Cluttered house? Missed appointments or time management, organizational issues...Yes. these are ADHD issues. Being an asshole.....not so much.
J
J....need to ask something
Submitted by dedelight4 on
J....... I ALWAYS love your posts, and once again the insight and things you've learned are important for all of us, and I'm so glad you share them. Anyway, I wanted to ask you a question just to see what you think. I seem to have no clue in this area and need some input. What I was wondering was this.....Why do so many men (including ADHD guys) like and choose "bitchy" (sorry) and controlling women who treat them like dirt? And they crawl back for more? But, when they get a woman who love them as good men, respect them, and provide them with love and children, and needed things, they get bored, start despising them and often cheat on them treating them horribly, wanting to walk out. To this day.....it boggles my mind. I have read countless articles about men saying how they "can't stand" a woman who is "too good". But, at the same time they will complain like CRAZY about the bitchy woman and how much they "can't stand her". WHAT THE HECK?
This seems like men who do this are selfish and terribly immature, and it is SO prevalent now days. Also, with the wonderful so called "women's movement", women now do this as much as men, and it's a sad day for relationships and ESPECIALLY marriage. Do people WANT to be treated bad? It SEEMS that way to me. What do you think? I know this doesn't have anything much to do with ADHD, but in my case it does fall into the picture. My husband had always chosen very bitchy and nasty girlfriends, until I came alone. His friends and family liked me because they said "You are the first girl we like, and isn't a bitch to him". At the time, I thought that was a compliment, but now I wish I would have looked at that more in depth.
It's something that has made me question myself over and over. I feel like I was stupid for "being nice", and that I should have been meaner or bitchier, or SOMETHING. I wasn't a doormat though. I spoke up, said what I feel, and tried to make peace and approach things head on. But, in the ADHD world, THAT becomes something of a real mind bender. I also didn't become the non-ADHD nagging wife like several women have done. I believed my husband was an adult, and needed to do things the same as anyone else. It didn't happen, but I didn't nag him about it. (We didn't find out about the ADHD until 24 years into our marriage. And then, he only took Concerta. He didn't get behavioral therapy. It caused me to "shut down" in almost every way. (I noticed you talked about that in your post)
With my ADHD husband, it's almost like he NEEDS a demanding, bitchy woman to tell him what to do, where to do it, when and why, for him to feel secure. But, that's not WHO I am, and I don't WANT to be. (His mother was this way, but she was ADHD and I believe bipolar, but not diagnosed)
Last thing: Did your therapist actually TELL you things, like you mentioned? It would be great to find a therapist who would actually TALK. The ones we've had to far just ask questions, and listen. They haven't actually SAID much, or interjected any of THEIR thoughts or knowledge. I told the last ADHD specialist, "I hate having to pay money just to have someone listen to me talk". She didn't seem to know much about ADHD, because neither of us learned much from her. And she didn't tell my husband ANYTHING about himself or how the ADHD affects relationships.
Anyway, if this seems idiotic, you can say so, it's just been on my mind. I can't be who I'm NOT, and that's what I've felt my ADHD husband has wanted all this time.
Wow...Where to Begin?
Submitted by kellyj on
First...no, it does not seem idiotic at all. What you are seeing is extremely accurate I think. Let me try and address the things I've learned at least so far from my own expereince.
Yes, my therapist talks to me but not so much at first. I did most of the talking as you've described. It took a while for me to see what (or how) he was doing what he does. I also went through 3 other therapist before I found him and was about to give up on the whole thing at that time because it didn't appear that they were helping me much...in fact, one in particular only made things worse. He was terrible! In it's essence.....(my current one for over almost 15 years now) kept leading me to the door and pointing to it...over and over...until I finally saw the door too. It was up to me to walk through it once I saw it and made the decision to do it. Therapists can't do this for someone, you have to come to this on your own. Once I understood what he was doing. I began to understand his language and what he was telling me. Before that....the things he would say didn't seem to be very helpful at times...but I would remember things he would tell me and then suddenly it seemed...something would happen and I would have that light bulb go on moment...."OOOOOHHHHHH.....this is what he was talking about!!" It took a while but slowly I could see the same things he saw...on my own without him having to lead me to the door anymore. Now we talk directly about each door, where and why I should go there and....he's a lot more direct with me than in the beginning when he see's me wandering in the wrong direction ( in my thinking ). I told him once that he was like a herding dog with sheep. lol I call him a herder occasionally which makes him laugh. I can also ask him questions directly to what I see and now understand the answer.......I learned the lingo and did a lot of reading and research myself too so I could understand it from the same place he was telling me from. It's sort of like learning a new language or a musical instrument. It takes some practice to get to where you are up to speed. It takes time.....enough time to make it work. I'm not sure there are any short cuts to it either....faster for some than others I guess? The turning point for me was when I found that everything he would say to me...tell me stories or situation with other people as examples.....were directly related to me specifically not just some anecdotal generalized message. Once I discovered that.... I could think about these stories and try and fit them to myself....which, as I also discovered...they did even if I initially didn't think so.
As far as the women's movement and the part about the seemly weird unexplainable contrast to US being susceptible to "bitchy" women I think I can help explain that some. I'm extrapolating a little here using my self but I think this might hold true to other men too who have ADHD. I'll do my best here.
If you grow up believing that there is something wrong with you ( as reported and experienced from other people especially your own parents )....you are basically taught to be ashamed of yourself....bluntly and succinctly. If somehow, you don't find ways to disprove this in your own thinking, then you carry this with you and act in ways to compensate.....or worse, over compensate for this feeling. If you are successful at convincing yourself your not and you are...this is a problem. compensating is not the same as taking ownership of your issues and moving forward. Compensating is another way of saying your hiding it but the shame is still there. If it's pointed out to you or others can see these things...the shame comes right back as if it were never gone in the first place or......you've buried it so deep that you will never see it or allow it to resurface again. ( like in Narcissism ) With a Narc....they created a story in their heads that fits what they want to believe about themselves regardless of what anyone else tells them and if someone has the audacity to infer that they are NOT what fits their own story well....you get the full brunt of that if you are unlucky enough to be the one to try and say so. All of these things however are a matter of degree. I fit more along the lines of always thinking there was something wrong with me and felt the shame or embarrassment ( believing more that I was defective instead of burying it and deferring to a lot of rationalizing instead when it was brought to my attention which only made me look worse than simply admitting it most of the time.....but also made me try even harder not to be that was however, not without some maladaptive strategies to go along with that too. In my eye...it seems to go either way.
So if you believe these things about yourself and someone is treating you poorly...that seems to make sense right? That might help explain why guys choose someone who is basically fulfilling this misconception of themselves even if you don't like it and it perpetuates more of the same. That's the maladaptive part.
It appears now....I actually know this now....I had enough real life success to counter the shame of the unknown ADHD in a healthy non overcompensating way to keep my head above water without going under and do reasonably well except for times of stress when my ADHD symptoms begin to overtake me. That's when the old defaults and errors in thinking start to re-emerge again ( the old shame ).
So....if you have a woman who in their own way ....is insecure or Narcissistic......they will pick up on the fact that every time they mention these things...what they get from you is to try harder and put more effort out, subconsciously, they have found the key to control yo and manipulate you. What's bad for you is good for them. Sorta kinda...not so good. I've had enough old girlfriends and one ex wife to tell you that that is exactly what happened with me and it ends up feeling horrible on every level which only makes you feel terrible about yourself.
I think you're right in part about the women's movement but only in the shadow or maladaptive side to it. Dispelling the obvious inequities before this with men and women would be pretty hard to argue against. Growing up with two older sisters who I loved didn't predispose me to being overly sexist but.....I've talked to plenty of friends about how confusing it was to grow up ( in the 60's ) where things were changing from one thing to another so fast for example: I heard "Nigger" from some people...then it was "Negro"....then it was "Black"....and then it became African American after that all within 10 years or so??? Which one is it!!! ( thinking as I was growing up ) Obviously "Nigger" was always used as a racial slurr but yet, I knew a number of people ( mostly older ones ) who used it as the only reference to a person of color without any real hatred behind it....more out of ignorance it seemed. I easily could see that much even back then but.....the other terms kept changing and in many ways, this same kind of change was happening with women too. First this is OK and then it isn't seemingly all at once over night. Very confusing indeed growing up.
So...if you have a sub group of women who are feeling rather un-empowered to begin with coming from this but in reality...are no less personally empowered feeling ( low self esteem)....the tendency would be to take advantage of it instead of wielding correctly in a healthy way and truly taking ownership of it. This gets even more complicated when you throw marriage and children into this mix with all the preconceived roles and legitimate reasons for these roles into all of this. What you get (from my perspective) is playing both sides of the fence. For me....nothing pisses me off more than this...pick a side and take ownership of it and don't jump sides to fit your own personal agenda and or situation...of course in your benefit. (speaking to the masses here lol ) But...I also think for the women who have found that their power comes from manipulating men ( seemingly very proud of this ability) ...this is the female equivalent to the very men that they would use as their rationale to be this way in the fist place. What I'm talking about is the ugly gender stereotype that everyone knows....and as with all stereotypes...there is a shred of truth within them too.
Not to belabor that topic.......most people are NOT inherently this way but, if you aren't paying attention to yourself ( saying this for myself ) the lines can get murky at times if you are drawn into it by other people. I also think this is more prevalent with older men than with younger ones for the reasons I just mentioned. Crap...I'm old! ha ha
So to answer your real question about why a man who was treated poorly before and then finds a nice caring one ( taking account to all that I said ).....it feels funny. That's to start with maybe. For me...I could shoot myself now looking at the past because I had several really nice girlfriends that I lost interest in because it didn't feel right at the time. What I now know is that what was not right was....the feeling that it wasn't right! lol That came from the first part to what I said about inherently thinking that you don't deserve to be treated as well as you are being treated because somewhere inside..you still believe you are defective...therefore, undeserving. This is the kind of stuff that my therapist and I ferreted of the holes that I wasn't seeing before.
But as far as why then....after being with a really caring and loving person would a person then act in the ways that you described? Because possibly.....they feel like they finally made it. they have arrived! And when you arrive to your destination....you don't have to try as hard anymore to disprove that you are not defective. The fact that you are with someone who shows you this and tells you these things pretty much confirms it. At last....al my worries are over! No more shame...she loves me just the way I am. ha ha ha This is a critical error in thinking but until you realize this, you are not going to feel the need to try very hard.
In reality....as soon as the other person starts to see the source of the shame again and it starts to get pointed out to you ie: the ADHD? Woops......the bubble just burst and everything goes to hell in a hand basket all over again but this time.....their ain't no exits left and you are left with all those old shameful feelings again returning for one more round. Ouch! That is unless they've gone the other direction....took the left fork instead of the right fork in the road and defaulting to more a Narcissistic bend....total and absolute denial no matter what anyone say's or do and refusal to look at what is shameful....in order not to feel it. HOW DARE YOU! ha ha.
I get that because I felt it quite often at times and spent a lot of time looking at it but feeling helpless to do anything about. The end result to my fork in the road I was depression and feelings of low self worth and being insecure at times growing up and then again....with a manipulative partner who used this to her advatage. That's been my biggest obstacle in forward progress when things got really bad before I was diagnosed and went to therapy.
One more thing to what you said. Medication ( Adderall for me ) does a great job in helping directly to my ADHD...attention, organizing, staying focused. It does literally nothing when it comes to dealing with any issues I've had from my past and the kinds of things that we're talking about. If any pill could do that it would be magic.....which, as we all know is not available at this time. ha ha
Did I miss anything? Let me know if this didn't make any sense or if you still need more info about the things you were asking? Of course...I am basing and extrapolating all of this to me from the things that I have learned or seen in my own experience...for what it worth:)
J
J, thank you....and in addition.....
Submitted by dedelight4 on
J, thank you for your eloquent explanation and example of my questions within your own life. It did help. I guess the reason I ask these things is because after so many years (over 3 decades) with an undiagnosed,and then under-treated ADHD husband, I got lost mentally, emotionally and spiritually. My husband is trying to be so much better now, and he really IS trying to be nicer, kinder, and treat me much better. We haven't talked any more about his ADHD and how we can work together to continue to improve things for us, because he really HATES to talk about himself. (unless it's with a stranger and someone he can only talk positively about himself to) But, only talking positively about one's self, may not be REAL. It often glosses over real subjects and issues that need to be self realized and altered. Would it be better if I ONLY talked positively to him? I have tried in the past, but it took it to mean there wasn't anything he needed to change about himself, because he was "doing great". Even when I approached it like "It would help me SO MUCH, and make me feel great and terrific if you...........................(fill in the blank). That didn't work either.
Well, I've said all that to say this............from 3 decades of this, and shutting myself down, I literally DESPISE myself and who I am. I hate looking in the mirror any more. I feel unlovely, and unworthy of love because of trying and getting "so little". It has made me feel like because I "chose" this life, I deserve the hell I seem to be going through now. I've ALWAYS, been a person who loves GIVING love. Love to me, (NOT, pretend or pretense) is the glue of life. Love with TRUST and giving, and kindness have been the things i"ve always cherished. I had a psychiatrist tell me that "You love deeply....so it means you also HURT deeply". I told him I just wanted to stop crying (while my husband was in the middle of his long term affair). And he also said, "Don't EVER STOP crying". But, a few years ago, I HAD TO stop, because the pain was tearing my life apart. I forced myself to "shape up" and "STOP IT". It was like a type of self preservation.
All the love, the kindness, the trying, the "showing him how", compliments, respect, helping him, DIDN'T DO ANYTHING to help him connect with ME. But, he sure noticed it when I STOPPED doing all that. He wants it done to him, but doesn't do it in return. Is this NORMAL for ADHD people? I know he has got to have co-morbid conditions along WITH the ADHD, but this can't just be ADHD alone.
I have beat myself up over and over for not leaving years ago, and that maybe would have helped HIM as much as me. I know he wants me to be closer to him now, because he is "trying to be better", but he has GOT TO GIVE ME TIME. 3 decades of living like I"m almost nothing to him, is going to take a while to change my "reaction time" to him.
He really needs some ADHD men that understand this, to talk to him, and to share their own experiences with him as well. Mainly, because I can't act like the last 30 years never happened, and try to pretend that we just met, and we have a new life now. (which is kind of how he's looking at things) It's also made me want to be a TOTALLY different person and become a nasty bitch that just tells him what to do and where to go, and maybe that would give us some sort of better connection. I know that sounds ridiculous, but don't think I haven't THOUGHT about that. (but I'm NOT that way inside)
Anyway, thanks for listening to me, and responding. I greatly appreciate it.
That is the $64 billion question
Submitted by AlmaVera on
"All the love, the kindness, the trying, the "showing him how", compliments, respect, helping him, DIDN'T DO ANYTHING to help him connect with ME. But, he sure noticed it when I STOPPED doing all that. He wants it done to him, but doesn't do it in return. Is this NORMAL for ADHD people? I know he has got to have co-morbid conditions along WITH the ADHD, but this can't just be ADHD alone."
That is the $64 billion question -- I know I am not that way and I'm pretty darned sure I have ADHD. In my reply to J earlier I wondered if the relationship hyperfocus, or the lack of desire to have a real mutual two-way emotional connection was a gender-related ADHD thing. I haven't ever had hyperfocus with people that just fizzled out, either. I have really wondered about a co-morbid condition, too, because no matter what, even when he said he was in love with me, there wasn't a sense of generosity, or of protection, and there was a real lack of empathy and compassion. I had never experienced or seen another relationship like ours til I was here.
I'm sorry for your pain. I can totally understand why you would feel the way you do, and I was only in it, not even living together, for a year. My 10+ year marriage before that was not even that bad, but I was still an empty husk by the time it ended. You are a strong woman to have made it this far. It shows how much you believe in love.
Alma Vera...
Submitted by kellyj on
Sorry for butting into your comment to dedelight 4 but I am compelled ( my OCD kicking in ha ha ). I don't have the answer to the $64 Billion dollar question ( why $64 billion?...I'd be happy with a vacation to Hawaii and a poke in the eye with a blunt stick lol) sorry again......
When I read this again... "All the love, the kindness, the trying, the "showing him how", compliments, respect, helping him, DIDN'T DO ANYTHING to help him connect with ME. But, he sure noticed it when I STOPPED doing all that. He wants it done to him, but doesn't do it in return. Is this NORMAL for ADHD people?
My first an almost immediate reaction was.....this sounds like a bribe? In other words....." I want him to do the same things for me as I do for him so ....I will just throw more things at him ....sweetening the pot......and my expectation from this gift is that he will respond by giving me what I want. It's a gift with strings attached...or a prepayment for gifts and services that I want in return.
Now...carry that one more step to..........and on top of this attempt at buying me off ( possibly perceived as a form of disrespect?)......if I don't.... now I'm being punished by withholding what I was already been given in the first place. I haven't done anything and now I'm less better off than I was before....this feels more like coercion ( a form of manipulation) than a bribe which is worse!! screw it!!
I don't know that this is the answer or don't have any idea if this is truly the case in this situation. But when I have experienced someone doing what I possibly perceived or read into the comment as it read .....this is exactly how I feel and respond to it if that really is the case.
It's one possible way to see this coming from the other side and it would not motivate me in the least if it really was what was happening. The catch here is that you already gave these things to him...free of charge if you will....willingly with all the loving good intent in the world and now you want to take it back.
This is not a message that is going to get through to anyone clearly doing it from this approach and will only set you up for the potential to be misinterpreted possibly the way I just did even if it isn't accurate or true. My radar is really fine tuned to this kind of thing so I pick up on it from other people even if they don't realize it themselves.
Another way to see this is.......don't give the thing that you want from another person as means to get it back from them yourself. The problem with this thinking is that you assuming that that is the thing that they want too. If you are wrong...the value of the gift is greatly diminished. And then/..being hurt or offended that they don't respond or like your gift makes it even worse.
Knowing exactly what another person needs and then proving it for them is pretty much a universal key to illicit a favorable response from them but......you first have to know what that thing is. Applying what you want is a poor way of determining this. Just say'in.
J
This just Hit Me After I Wrote the Last Post...
Submitted by kellyj on
One of my favorite episodes of "The Simpsons" ( for any fans..yes, I am one.....the Three Stooges too..yes, I know women hate them ) is where Homer buys Marge a bowling ball for her birthday that is fit to his fingers......and Marge doesn't bowl. This did not buy Homer any points with Marge. Her response was to go get private Tennis lessons from a sexy French Gigolo tennis instructor.
Gotta love Homer !
J
Dede and J...My two cents worth....
Submitted by c ur self on
( "All the love, the kindness, the trying, the "showing him how", compliments, respect, helping him, DIDN'T DO ANYTHING to help him connect with ME. But, he sure noticed it when I STOPPED doing all that. He wants it done to him, but doesn't do it in return. Is this NORMAL for ADHD people?)
First I would like to say I'm sorry for your pain Dede... Your ability to love and endure w/ little to nothing coming back say's a lot about your heart...My wife is much this way, but, I'm not saying it's a ADD effect, what I am saying is she suffer's w/ ADD, and she has been much this way most of our marriage...Other things I've noticed about this type of individual: They will be over the top much of the time...All or Nothing...For the relationship to exist it must revolve around them...I do not think it is intentional or even realized much of the time. Self-absorption and an overly analytical mind is other symptoms I've noticed....There seems to be an inability to just trust, share, and give themselves....
Please don't take this comment wrong J...because I laughed when I read what you wrote:)...But I will stick my neck out here and say, if her love is a bribe, I doubt it would take 30 years to set the trap...LOL...And Dede...I think you are quiet intelligent!....
C
J -- I understand what you're
Submitted by AlmaVera on
J -- I understand what you're saying, but I know that's not what I meant, and though I don't want to put words in her mouth, I'm pretty sure dedelight didn't mean it the way you took it, either. I think it was a type of shorthand in the way it was expressed.
It may very well be that the men to whom we've referred look at it the same way you've described. We are not talking about 'giving to get,' or giving love only with the expectation of getting something back. What we are talking about are the kinds of mutual expressions of love, compassion, and respect that are part of a normal, healthy romantic partnership. What are these expressions? Lots of things: physical affection, compassion, interest in the other person's life, acts of service, compliments, tackling hardship together, being trustworthy, generosity with time and resources and effort, on and on.
It doesn't seem at all uncommon that someone in a relationship with an ADHDer experiences this mutual expression early on in the relationship, as s/he probably did in other relationships, too. However, many of us were shocked to have things suddenly change at some point. Contrary to other relationships, where growing feelings lead to an increase in each partner's desire to express those feelings to the other partner, suddenly, the ADHDer pulls back, becomes cold, disinterested, self-centered, and sometimes physical attention stops, among other changes.
Just as someone without ADHD can only try to understand what it's like to have ADHD, someone who has never experienced this sudden, shocking change in behavior can only try to understand how it feels.
But we still love the partner who has pulled away. We saw things in him or her that caused us to fall in love in the first place, and we hope that person will come back. Because of who we are and how we love, we keep expressing it as we have. We still want a 'normal' romantic relationship. Part of that includes being able to tell that our partner loves us, too. Especially if they were able to show it at one time, it is impossible to just believe that they are suddenly unable to. It is impossible not to think that the change in behavior is not linked to a change in feelings, too.
The tone of what you wrote seems a perfect example of the self-focus and lack of empathy many of us have seen in our partners. It is interesting to me that you wrote of it as the shows of love given being "taken back" rather than just no longer continuing into the future. The assumption is that we must have had an ulterior or malevolent motive for the way we treated our partners in the first place. It is not assumed that we acted out of real love, but must have had a valid reason to change, such as: we had to act with love for ourselves at some point, too. There doesn't seem to ever be an "a-ha!" moment where they see that maybe they played a role in things. The reaction seems to be based on a very self-centered and selfish resistance to giving and sharing, while being loved and taken care of.
But I think it boils down to: What does love mean? What does it mean to love someone within a relationship? In a healthy relationship, when both partners are willingly engaged in giving to the other partner (as well as taking care not to lose the self), both partners get the 'good feelings' from giving and from having emotional needs met.
If someone is in a relationship and thinks that there is no expectation of giving or doing, then that person has no business being in a relationship. A relationship is a matter of choice. Especially if there's a marriage, then both partners willingly made vows, and in standard vows, each partner vows to love, cherish, care for each other when sick, etc. Those are actions, they require giving in order to fulfill them. And again, both spouses choose of their free will to make these promises. So, why should either spouse be expected to just be happy with treatment that is devoid of care or acts of love, that becomes neglect and emotional abuse? Does someone who is treated this way just give endlessly? To have emotional needs is not unhealthy. To express them to the person who said they loved you is healthy. To say "ENOUGH" does not mean the love that was shown was not real.
(I would not be surprised if the guy I was with felt exactly the way you wrote. I often felt that there was just a fundamental difference in how we looked at love and what it meant to love someone. I could never understand how he could say he was in love with me, and yet it seemed so unappealing to him to actually love me, no matter how small an action. No, it didn't seem that way -- he told me that outright. And if that bothered me, there was clearly something wrong with me. Because of other stuff in my background prior to the relationship, having him suddenly flip and change so drastically just at the time when intimacy and connection normally deepens was emotionally traumatic to me. Maybe that seems too strong of a reaction, but when it had been so difficult for me to open up and feel and trust as much as I did, it was just something I never could have imagined happening. I wouldn't doubt that others have felt just as bad.)
This is a hall-of-fame post.
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
This is a hall-of-fame post. Thank you so much. I couldn't agree more with what you wrote and I could not have written it nearly so well.
Wow, that means a lot to me,
Submitted by AlmaVera on
Wow, that means a lot to me, Rosered. Thank you.
So Wonderfully Written AV...This is Great
Submitted by kellyj on
And to the point I was hoping to hear. You have made some great observations and I couldn't agree with you more....including my short hand way of writing. lol I do appreciate this kind of feed back. This has been a current topic in our house.....incomplete trains of thought! ha ha I find it difficult most of the time to be succinct as you can probably tell but there really is a message in there somewhere but it does seem to get lost at times. My wife would agree! lol
First......"The tone of what you wrote seems a perfect example of the self-focus and lack of empathy many of us have seen in our partners. It is interesting to me that you wrote of it as the shows of love given being "taken back" rather than just no longer continuing into the future."
This was my intention....to pose an attitude or position coming from this way of seeing things and from what you said....I must have done this close enough to represent your's and other experience to feel some what familiar. I had to back-track in my head to a time that I am less proud to admit and extrapolate from situations outside my marriage where I really have experienced this very thinking coming from the other direction as well.....more of a collective or history of responses and reactions that someone with ADHD might have had from a lifetime of experiences. I'll come back to to this.....
I want to jump now to this comment because I think you hit the crux of the matter when you said...
"However, many of us were shocked to have things suddenly change at some point. Contrary to other relationships, where growing feelings lead to an increase in each partner's desire to express those feelings to the other partner, suddenly, the ADHDer pulls back, becomes cold, disinterested, self-centered, and sometimes physical attention stops, among other changes." Am I wrong here? This really is the $64 Billion dollar question isn't it?
I've experienced this exact thing myself in my past but I don't want to l move this away from the heart of what you and everyone else here are talking about in that...we are not talking about people who don't have ADHD right now. I get that.....but saying I know what this feels like to the letter of every word you said. I do understand this.
So ..the question is why? Isn't it? Look at what you wrote again but just this part.. "suddenly, the ADHDer pulls back, becomes cold, disinterested, self-centered, and sometimes physical attention stops, among other changes."
Ask yourself this question......why would YOU act this way yourself? Take ADHDer out of this and put yourself in instead. Let me explain.....
Are you familiar with Occam's Razor ? There is a story to this definition if you are really interested but in short (if you don't already know).....it comes from a phenomenon commonly witnessed ( if I remember correctly) with medical school interns when they were trying to make a difficult or unclear diagnosis to the cause of a patients ailment and would consistently seem to overlook the most obvious or simplest explanation to what they were seeing for more exotic or rare causes for example.....seeing a patient who has a high fever, sweats profusely and seems to have lost weight and immediately thinks it might be Malaria instead of the real cause which is a case of the common flu. Saying...that this seems to be a recognizable pattern in everyone when they are searching for answers to a puzzle or something they don't understand. based on there own perception at any given time In the case of these interns...this tendency came from the fact that they were fresh out of medical school and were predisposed to thinking in these terms since they had been tested so rigorously in so many types of symptoms and ailments that they had become trained in a way to do this very thing somewhat predictably.
But to the point I'm making.....we all do this whether we realize it or not. Without experience to guide us as you pointed out ..."Just as someone without ADHD can only try to understand what it's like to have ADHD, someone who has never experienced this sudden, shocking change in behavior can only try to understand how it feels.".....you can only go by what you've learned. What's missing is the experience itself.
The simplest explanation for my own behavior when I have acted in the way you described was when I felt hurt or betrayed. I could see in my case.....as I said, I have experienced the same set of behaviors from someone I loved dearly and the first thing that I felt......was being terribly hurt, confused, insecure about my marriage and questioning if this person actually really loved me in the first place or if they even knew what love was?............and then later feeling very angry and resentful. If you read C Ur Self's descriptions of his wife and the issues and anger that he is dealing with....this might give you an idea of the type of things that I went through as well.
So why does it seem that people with ADHD seem to collectively act in this way as commonly experienced by all of you with your H's?
This is where I need to pause to say a few things about myself so I can establish some context to a couple things that you said as they relate to me. I can't make statements about anyone else and I am NOT an authority on ADHD as a science to the point that I can make blanket statements that include everyone who has it. but I can use myself as someone who does and saying.....I'm probably not that different to other people with ADHD in many ways but certainly not all. What I do have without question is the personal experience of having it before I was diagnosed and didn't even know what ADHD was....and now after years of therapy, education and medication to now look back and see the differences for myself ( in myself ) and report back what I've learned. If that makes any sense?
To put this into context for you...these are some of these differences you mentioned....
What does love mean? What does it mean to love someone within a relationship? In a healthy relationship, when both partners are willingly engaged in giving to the other partner (as well as taking care not to lose the self), both partners get the 'good feelings' from giving and from having emotional needs met.
I couldn't agree more with you from where I sit now. But in the past...I certainly had a more idealistic immature view of what love was which I mostly attribute to not having a good example of it in my own family. But....I also can see a difference in how I was treated back then compared to my own sisters who did not have ADHD. I've had to finally have some tearful conversations with them recently...telling my own stories and experiences that contrasted theirs in order to do a very similar thing asI am trying to do here with you, so they too could see why I might have a different perspective than they do....Getting back to my earlier comment about the collective experiences and reactions or responses that a person with ADHD might have starting from a very early age.
I did this with my sisters in order to explain and give answers to some of the very same misconceptions that they appeared to have with me in the same way as anyone else who is not understanding this difference in experience between someone with ADHD and someone without. This is just one difference to hold onto for a moment........
I say this because so often it seems.....people who are looking for answers to this ADHD puzzle seem to isolate symptoms and behaviors apart from one another as if they are not related or as if they are somehow separate from everything else I've come to learn...there are no simple one dimensional answers to this....it's never just ONE thing and you have to look at the whole picture in order for it to make any sense.
More differences getting back to me and some of the things you said about your own experiences....I could never understand how he could say he was in love with me, and yet it seemed so unappealing to him to actually love me, no matter how small an action. No, it didn't seem that way -- he told me that outright. And if that bothered me, there was clearly something wrong with me. This does not sound like me at all ( nor has this been brought up to me before) I'm a touchy feely kind of person.....in more scientific terms....I'm extremely tactile. I like to touch and be touched so I tend to be more physically expressive. No problem there. And I've never had a problem with doing lots of little things to show affection or try and be thoughtful. I've always been told that I can be thoughtful and generous with affection ( not just sexual ) but.......hot and cold or inconsistent for sure. That has been brought up to me before in the past and even with my wife now. Less now since I've become aware of this more than I used to. I just have to remind myself occasionally to remember to do it and that has become more of a habit with more consistency. Remember....I'm ADHD(predominantly) less ADD....hyper vs inattentive / extrovert vs introvert. Being overt and demonstrative with affection has never been hard for me and it seems to come naturally on it's own without too much effort. I'm comfortable with it?
But within this hot and cold aspect....I can see the seeds of the neglect you mentioned. If I had to be brutally honest, I'd have to say that I was probably seen as neglectful in my past even if it was not from being unaffectionate or thoughtful in smaller ways at the same time. Not staying connected or going for periods of time not connecting the same as I do now.....pursuing interests outside my marriage that took up a lot of available time I had which is to say.....not being generous and being more stingy with my giving of time. Again....alternating but not stagnant or completely missing in action. Yes. And again...not so much now since I'm older and bit less active and....I also can see the errors from my past when it comes to this. I must bring up one interesting exception to this. In my 2nd marriage with a person I was very much in love with and did not want to divorce from.....this situation was reversed and I was the one making the same complaints of her that are echoed many of the feelings that are being made here in this forum non-ADHDer's about us. Interesting? I most definitely felt neglected. She was also the woman I mentioned where I ended ultimately ended up feeling hurt resentful and angry.
"Contrary to other relationships, where growing feelings lead to an increase in each partner's desire to express those feelings to the other partner...."
I had to stop and think about this for a while especially in connection to what you said immediately following this. I have no reference to the part about being contrary to your other relationships...but if I can gather from my own experiences and from those I've seen with friends and family.....I do see one main difference which might possibly be part of the answer you are looking for, Remember what I said earlier about me experiencing the same things as you reported in the comments following this one. This is very true but.....I now know as big reason for this has to do with my ADHD specifically I will try and pull this all together for you.
I don't see any difference in me about the increasing feelings that grow over time. I firmly believe that this is one big difference between LOVE....and the initial feelings of lust, infatuation and ideal immature love which is really just that wonderful phase of falling in love and the overwhelming "high" of feeling "in love" with someone. I've seem to have experienced the same "phasing" out and "phasing into" these two things just like most people that report the same thing. I've actually done this now a number of times in my life due to my (2) previous marriages and even before.( 3 other relationships lasting 3 years or more ) Two of them however.....I ended because this feeling didn't grow and continue on the same as with the others...... that's how I knew. The other one ended it with me but I would have married her probably if she had wanted to. I was not married in these relationships so it was without the vows you mentioned....a commitment before God if you will. I think this becomes more important when things are not going so well in the long haul but I have certainly seen plenty of people who never get married and stay together indefinitely to know that it is not the only thing that keeps people together........or not.
I could go on with sighting more difference but these were the main ones I wanted to bring into this for an important reason saying....there may be a tendency for ADHD'ers to be the way's you mentioned but I think there might also be some defining reason's why.....other comorbid issues?...differences between inattentive and hyperactive types?.....and differences in life experiences growing up. Also keep in mind that ADHD is not like diagnosing diabetes or pancreatic cancer where the majority of everyone who has these things will fall into some pretty predictable categories of symptoms with very few exceptions....If you look at the list of ADHD symptoms as a whole.....I can pick out at least 1/3 of this list that does not apply to me AT ALL. Noise sensitivity being just one example. Nodda, nichts, nothing. It doesn't exist for me? That's just one.
So let me recap and bring this all together. Life and family experience before I was diagnosed showed me how other people respond to you which has a huge part to play in how you perceive yourself and other people. My experience taught me that people will suddenly quit you or find you unacceptable even if they did not before. That people in general will appear to be annoyed or angry with you for no apparent reason...blow up, speak harshly or critically of you without notice. Treat you disrespectfully and/or underestimate you and your abilities despite any evidence to the contrary unless they have known you for a very long time. Some people more than most and a few that were the exception which remained consistently connected but these were fewer and further between ( these are a handful of my long time childhood friends). This experience taught me to be more guarded and remain at arms length for a while until I felt safe to open up or get too close.....or allow myself to become attached in fear of rejection or hurt that had begun to form a pattern which became somewhat of a weeding out of the people who fell into the categories of quitting you or suddenly dismissing you and becoming increasing annoyed, angry and dismissive seemingly out of the blue for no reason when they were not before. You also begin to notice how you appear to get singled out or ridiculed more often compared to other people for innocuous seeming reasons which further adds to this perception. Trust begins to be harder and harder to come by at times because you are not sure exactly why this happens to you and seemingly....not to many other people you have to compare to. For me when this happened I would withdraw and retreat internally. Close off and become very independent...not looking for or expecting anyone to meet any needs you might feel a need for from anyone and becoming more and more self sufficient. This also means....you are denying yourself of the experience of giving and expressing yourself in ways that you very much want to and need as a normal healthy way of commingling with other people. I finally developed a thicker skin and had the expectation of these things to the point that I went out into the world anyway regardless...but stop expecting anything from anyone else.
I'm stopping here to say if you haven't already noticed a pattern developing in my own conclusions to my experiences....you need to go back and reread this last paragraph pick out the behaviors you see in your spouse that appear very similar or possibly explained within the it's content. It's a pattern of reaching out and then getting shot down. Becoming close and then getting hurt. Retreating.....licking your wounds and then going out again to experience yet another case of the same thing. Each time...becoming more guarded and less trusting but yet...thicker skinned than before until it becomes an established and confirmed pattern of what you are to expect from others and how this will play out each time it happens. I remember as a teenager thinking how wonderful it would be not to need anyone for anything....to be perfectly self contained, self confident and be free of all of this. This of course did not happen but I did learn some useful things along the way because of it. One of them being ....learning how to accept and take responsibility for myself. If you are going to be independent and never need anyone for anything for the rest of your life....it's pretty hard to pass the buck or blame others at the same time if your the only one in the room! lol
One more important part I forgot to mention and this really is something that you begin to notice along with the rest of the experiences, assumptions and conclusions. You begin to believe that if people are reaching out to you or approaching you for anything.....they must want something from you or otherwise they wouldn't be doing it....they not interested in me for who I am but for what they want from me. I did find many ways to become proficient and confident in doing things and people did respond favorably to me because of this saying......I was aware of this and in the appropriate situations encouraged it which only furthered my thinking in this directions. Sometime this was true but other times it was not. But by now you have become so guarded and callous to other people at times that it just easier to be suspect than it is to be wrong. From this thinking also comes other subconscious agreements you make to yourself which say.......don't expect anything from me and I won't expect anything from you. I've learned to be independent and do things myself.... so should you. I don't need anything from you so don't ask anything from me. You don't need to hold my hand but don't expect me to hold yours. If we can play by these rules...we will get along just fine.
Do you see the corollary in this thinking and the things I said in my response to you? The thinking that people want things from you and only give things to get? If you do then this should start to make sense or explain where these things come from. Keep in mind it has taken me a good deal of time to sort all this stuff out and bring it to the surface where I could see it too. Most of these things were subliminal or I could only see as glimpses or isolated moments with no connection to one another. That should sound familiar since I said it to you within this very post as something you need to do too in order to make any sense of it as well.
These of course are critical errors or fallacies in thinking that become engrained in your world view and perspective .....or old defenses that are still in play even if I was not aware that they were which only keeps perpetuating these misconceptions by validating them and making them self full filling prophecies. Actually for me......I didn't realize this in the way I am explaining it to you now before I was diagnosed simply because I had yet discovered why it was that I experienced all the things that I did which leaves you rationalizing out of that ignorance of not knowing. My running joke now that I use instead of "rationalizing" is "irrationalizing" instead. I don't think everyone gets this but I now see how silly and ridiculous my own thinking was and the resulting conclusions that came from it were.
The last part to all of this is the part about the "sudden turn" you described which also ties into the things I was saying in my previous post. The example of Homer, Marge and the bowling ball is still a good one to use here taking into consideration and applying everything I just said now if I've been able to bring you to the same place with me......
But now......I'm Marge in this scenario and Homer just gave me the bowling ball with his finger holes in it for my birthday. I'm hurt and feeling angry and resentful that a person could be this shallow and obviously self serving in an apparent attempt to buy something for themselves and pass this off as a gift to me....understandable so. I think most people would feel somewhat betrayed and disrespected to say the least. I actually saw this exact thing play out with some (real) people I know in almost the exact same circumstances but with a different gift item instead. I will spare you but it is such a funny story...that is except for the wife of this gentleman even though...she herself is not the deepest pool in the neighborhood.
There was a point in time when my ex started to change her attitude and some subtle and not so subtle ways. I won't make you figure this out since I do know the particulars. The reason for this came largely due to some of my worst ADHD symptoms which had to do with the house and clutter. For her this ultimately became one of the biggest deal breakers for her even though she herself was not exactly what she lead me to believe at first either. But as I began to pick up on this from her even though she mostly remained rather silent and closed off to me about it......my radar was picking up the same familiar signs from her that I already new the ending to. I knew it from a lifetime of being able to read it and had experienced it countless times before. For me, in light of everything that I just said.....the selection process and the trust I needed to commit myself to someone meant......I believed subconsciously that the person that I trusted and cared for most would not do what she did and it was a very old and familiar pattern. Increasingly dismissive, irritated closed off and disrespectful. In turn....I responded in the same way I had always done in the face of this except....this was much worse because I felt betrayed on top of it from the one person that I counted on for this not to happen. For me....this was the worse thing that she could do even though of course.....she couldn't possibly know or understand why. In my eyes...she fell from grace. I felt as hurt and betrayed as I had ever felt from my past ( again not understanding this at the time as I am telling you now ) but only worse and feeling helpless to do anything about it. She was manipulative in way to keep getting her needs met by making agreements that she never seemed to honor yet...I always seemed to honor mine which began that cycle of me trying, trying even harder, then trying even harder with that old thinking that my value is what I can do for you not who I am. ( even if that thinking was on a subconscious level ).
My response to this ultimately was exactly what you described...in order to protect myself from the pain from this was to close off, withdraw and pull away emotionally and default to going back to being self sufficient and trying my best not to need her for anything and drawing hard lines in the sand as boundaries...which didn't work yet at the same time...not wanting to be this way ( not happy about it what so ever) still loving her very much but needing from her to stop throwing more fuel on the fire by being indifferent to me. She ultimately had an affair and immediately wanted a divorce to go be with another man. As far as I know...they are still together?
This is a cart and horse...chicken and egg dilemma....if neither side can see what they are doing to set the other person off or trip some old unconscious defense default behavior into play in the other person....no one is going to see or understand why this and think it's the other person fault or to blame. In reality...both people are being pulled in their own unconscious and maladaptive directions like a Bull with a ring in it's nose, completely unaware of themselves and their part to play.
Everything I just described I see as related to having ADHD but not directly attributed to it. These errors in thinking, my outlook and perspective have all change since then and I've replaced them with a new understanding of myself and answers to all the old questions to why I experienced what I did and why other people responded to me the way they did. I no longer think or believe anything that I just wrote to you and can easily see the difference between the way I am now and the way I was then. Instead of rationalizing about it...I know the answers which is why it doesn't upset or bother me ( as much or not at all) like it did before.
It's now my responsibility to be as much a teacher to my wife of my own awareness to these things as I am the student of her so I can learn the same things for the exact same reasons. To be understanding, compassionate and self aware of myself and her at the same time especially when it comes to the problem areas where we might not see things eye to eye........compromising based on the other person and what they are able to do or capable of doing and understanding each persons sensitive areas and learning to treat them with care instead of treating them and that person like they are a burden and disdaining them for not measuring up to our expectations. This has allowed me to be more compassionate in the face of the things about my ADHD that really hit upon the areas that have a much deeper root to her own troubled past experiences and family issues. Instead of feeling betrayed when she loses it about certain things....I see that she is struggling with things in many ways are not so different than my own that she has yet to get a complete handle on. I see this...I see the effort she makes and I see the results in steady improvements.
For me....this is Love coming from her. This is what I didn't get in my past before and is one of the most valuable gifts she could give to me. He effort and trying to conquer her demons for both of us not just me. This is what I'm trying to do for her as well. I don't want to hurt or affect anyone negatively especially her. I do this because I Love her as well. This is what I really want and need from her. This is the remedy that motivates me and makes me try harder with appreciation instead of resentment. This is fully my choice to do and no one is manipulating me to do it. I know how much she appreciates this because she too....has been in past relationship with someone who refused to look or admit that there was anything wrong with them and defaulted to blaming and deferring instead.
This is what I was intentionally trying to do with you in my previous post....in essence...recreate this kind of thinking as one possibility for someone who has ADHD to help explain why they are the way they are and why they behave in the way they behave at times which doesn't seem to make any sense. The good news about all of this for me is that these things that aren't directly related to my ADHD are all fixable....and fixable in a much easier way at times than my hard core ADHD ones. With those there is not an easy fix but just retraining to do thing differently which does take more time and is not so much point A to point B like some of this other stuff. I hope this made more sense to you this time. Thank you so much for putting together such a well though through and eloquent way for me to work from as a starting point. I hope I succeeded in helping you gain some perspective and answers that will help you answer the questions that you have about the past. I've got to give this a break now to get back to some other things but I'll check back in to see if this made sense or not
J
correction- I corrected that I am an authority in ADHD to I'm NOT....which was what I meant to write instead in case you read this and went wow...really? lol
PS This is also the way I have found to change the painful old memories to ones I can understand and finally put to rest. To answer the title of this post...they don't ever go away but you can always go back and change them by seeing them in a different light. Just like there are no expiration dates to apologies and forgiveness.
I do see a lot of what you wrote about
Submitted by AlmaVera on
I do see a lot of what you wrote about in your response. In both me and him. Just for the record, when I wrote my long post last night, I was drawing from my own experience and those of other spouses/partners I've read about here. There are a lot of similarities, whether the couples were married or not, or together 30 years down to only about a year and a couple months, as in my case.
"It's now my responsibility to be as much a teacher to my wife of my own awareness to these things as I am the student of her so I can learn the same things for the exact same reasons. To be understanding, compassionate and self aware of myself and her at the same time especially when it comes to the problem areas where we might not see things eye to eye........compromising based on the other person and what they are able to do or capable of doing and understanding each persons sensitive areas and learning to treat them with care instead of treating them and that person like they are a burden and disdaining them for not measuring up to our expectations. This has allowed me to be more compassionate in the face of the things about my ADHD that really hit upon the areas that have a much deeper root to her own troubled past experiences and family issues. Instead of feeling betrayed when she loses it about certain things....I see that she is struggling with things in many ways are not so different than my own that she has yet to get a complete handle on. I see this...I see the effort she makes and I see the results in steady improvements.
For me....this is Love coming from her. This is what I didn't get in my past before and is one of the most valuable gifts she could give to me. He effort and trying to conquer her demons for both of us not just me. This is what I'm trying to do for her as well. I don't want to hurt or affect anyone negatively especially her. I do this because I Love her as well. This is what I really want and need from her. This is the remedy that motivates me and makes me try harder with appreciation instead of resentment. This is fully my choice to do and no one is manipulating me to do it. I know how much she appreciates this because she too....has been in past relationship with someone who refused to look or admit that there was anything wrong with them and defaulted to blaming and deferring instead."
This is what I wish we could have had. I've started to write up our story, but it's just too hard to do. We both made bad choices. We were both dealing with physical and mental health issues that we didn't ask for. I don't know if it would have ended differently if we hadn't had to deal with distance. I guess it could have worked out better if we'd been able to have frequent physical contact and to do things together. OTOH, it might have been worse if we'd been together more often. Judging on how things went on subsequent visits, it could have gone either way. But I do know that when I had serious health problems last year (some not yet healed), he showed little to no actual concern, was judgmental when he saw some symptoms that I told him beforehand that embarrassed me and that I couldn't control. I longed for some small sign that he valued me in his life or cared about any of the close calls I had. But it was pretty much about him. I want to be in a relationship that doesn't make me feel worse about myself, with someone who just cares on his own.
I don't know if it's helping me to try to understand what happened or why, if I'm just doing it on my own. But thank you for explaining things so well. I think it's great that you have come to such awareness, about you and your wife. I hope the two of you are able to work things out.
I Can Relate AlmaVera, And....
Submitted by kellyj on
I'm sorry that you had that experience. Nothing can make you feel more helpless and devalued when you are sick or injured, and you really need your partner to step in or step up and help...and they simply aren't there for you.
A defining moment for me once in my first marriage....was when I developed Appendicitis and it nearly ruptured before I could get to the emergency room because my ex (knowing I was sick but not knowing it was Appendicitis )...disappeared for the day with the car for hours to go shopping for herself. I had to have emergency surgery at midnight and stay in the Hospital through the next day before I was released. She never came to visit me or check on me that following day and only came to pick me up when it was time to go home.
What I always will remember about that experience on a brighter note....was while I was recovering from surgery.....a friend of a friend that I had only met for a brief time ( a virtual stranger) who I had done work for ( I'm a goldsmith and had made his wedding ring for him )...had tried to contact me to Thank me for the work I had done. When he heard I was in the Hospital, he went out of his way and came right over to see how I was doing. What was more amazing to me about this man was that he didn't even live in my City ( nearly 3,000 miles away )...and was on a temporary visit to my city for his job and was only in town for a couple of days. This was one of those times when you have to really believe in the saying..."When God shuts one door....He opens another."
It was such a poignant contrast in human character but yet.....such a wonderful lesson and example for me to follow myself which I have had the opportunity to do since then a couple of times myself in some similar situations.
The thing that I have found that is so universally true about giving to others in this kind of way is....... that you the "Giver", are really the one who benefits most from being this way. This is absolutely true!!
I can think back to so many times of regret and pain...for time spent and wasted, feeling vengeful and angry at people in my past who have done things to hurt me or feeling cheated, ripped off or treated unfairly. When you do give from your heart in loving ways to others....there are never any strings attached....never any hurt feelings or regrets ....or feelings of any other kind than one's of peace and thankfulness for the opportunity to help someone else in need or assistance if you have the opportunity to do it at any given time.
I'm not a devout church goer ( almost never except for weddings )......but I strongly believe in the lessons I've learned from going to church in my childhood and putting them into practice. So much of the time it seems....we pay lip service to these lessons but don't actually follow through and practice them in our daily lives....but that really is the whole point of going in the first place when it comes right down to it isn't it?
I'm trying to take this approach with my wife and working on my ADHD for motivation and it really is amazing how quickly you can move past any old pain and anger and simply let it go of it for good when you do.
This is not saying you have to be a door matt either! That never feels good! lol
My one standing assignment from my therapist I've been given that I feel is worth repeating to you......." Never make anything you do contingent on anything anyone else does..." has been worth the price of admission for me in teaching me the value of staying positive and making the right choices without letting others hijack you into being anything other than the person you want to be. Whenever I follow this and do the right thing.....I never have to look back and wished I hadn't.
That right there is really is the reward that you get for following that path....no pain, no anger.....no regrets.
We make are own Hell sometimes right here on earth. I've found this to be so true!
Good Luck and Thanks for taking the time and effort to respond. I hope you have a complete and full recovery...from everything! lol
Peace
J
One More Thing
Submitted by kellyj on
"I don't know if it's helping me to try to understand what happened or why, if I'm just doing it on my own."
I can't speak for anyone else and I already know that I differ in one way that does not fit with everyone and I am aware of this too ( my wife is one for example. She questions this the same way it sounds like for you) But, for me...I've found that I have had trouble getting hurtful thoughts and memories out of my head which appear to keep coming back and haunting me. Going back and looking at these things differently by going back and applying any new found understanding to it really does change it for good....once and for all! Instead of reliving the painful memory over and over ( indefinitely! ).....whenever I do this and change my relationship with these old memories....... they seems to shrink down and become less painful to a more manageable and even sometimes completely innocuous one instead. I do find that for me....this is the value of doing this even if it requires you to revisit or relive some of those moments again even if only for one last time in it's old and painful form.
It appears that the reason these memories keep coming back from time to time is they are trying to tell you something by saying.... "the waste basket is full and you forgot to take out the garbage"
In other words....if you can't Beat 'em.....Join'em. If you can't empty your can...at least you can smash it down and compact it to make more room. lol
Dedelight4..Giving Things Time...
Submitted by kellyj on
Is so important on both sides. It seems we all get really narrowly focused when we're troubled or unhappy...usually inward not outward. Pain has a way of doing that ya know? I think it is really important to note with your husband that even you now notice a difference even if it not what you ultimately want. I cannot emphasize enough to you that you should not overlook the significance of this. From your husband's perspective possibly...this is as hard or as much as he is able to do at this given time. For him...this might be giving his all. If you don't stop to consider this in all the of your own inner turmoil....you might be missing that this could be a huge giving gesture on his part to make amends and improve. A gracious gift instead of a sub-par performance. It's the thought that counts sometimes and this saying really applies does apply to what I'm saying from this side of things. I don't know if this is accurate to your situation or not and I'm not reading into your comments but I do know for myself at times especially with my ADHD issues ( which really are the most difficult and arduous problems I face with other people ) I get this impression at times even if all I'm only reading is their frustration in the moment but, I think this is something to look for when you see your husband now compared to the past. If it is true...then encouragement will be the greatest gift you could give him in return. I am so susceptible to other people negatively that this alone will stand in my way of reaching out and connecting ( even when I want to ) and even if the same would not be for someone else ( saying this is a sensitively on my part...my issue). In relation to the things I was saying and my past experiences throughout my life surrounding my ADHD.......one small nice word of encouragement can erase 100 words of negativity almost instantly.
I also wanted to say one thing very carefully to you about your husbands affair. I don't know what I would do or how I would feel about that but I know myself well enough that I know I would not handle it well or get over that for a very long time. Having said that.....and in light of your own description about the different ways you have reacted to your husband over time.....I can hypothetically see myself in a situation where I am saturated with other peoples negatively so much that I would be desperate to hear just about anyone who had a few nice things to say to me from an emotional escape from pain point of view. I can see an affair serving just that purpose....a temporary escape. Possibly?
So where does that leave you? The bitchy angry person who your hubby runs away from in a moment of weakness to escape negatively? Whe I read your comment about his comments to strangers being only positive ones I immediately thought....hmmm, a counter response ( subliminally perhaps) to being overwhelmed with negatively...I get that yet he's not seeing how this is coming across) In reality....I imagine you were feeling more hurt and was angrier and most frustrated than before ( maybe not as much now from your description). If there is one things that I have gleaned from coming to this forum...it is all the reasons why the people married to us get ANGRY!! ha ha And there is legitimacy in all of it.
But it's also kind of hard to be forgiving and compassionate for someone while they are standing with one foot on your wind pipe and you are suffocating to death in that moment...even if it is unintentional and they are ignorant of this fact themselves.
What I have found that works equally well with my wife is to stop and think about how I say things before they come out of my mouth and it amazing how many flies you can attract with a little honey even if you don't necessarily feels all sugary inside. that and a drop of encouragement or acknowledgement the effort regardless of the outcome. Motivation is your friend.....it works.
PS Time itself will do nothing to fix the problem if you are using the wrong remedy to start with.
J
If there is one things that I
Submitted by s00manyquestions on
If there is one things that I have gleaned from coming to this forum...it is all the reasons why the people married to us get ANGRY!! ha ha And there is legitimacy in all of it. (J)
My therapist I talked a bit about that...anger...relationships...fighting and pop-off blowout if its't taken care of. ..." Fighting doesn't have to be BAD...you can accomplish/communicate many thing this way...the only thing is: YOU HAVE TO FIGHT FAIR!! -- that's where it gets hard..at least for me!! I tend to "go for the kill!".Pierce the jugular and it's done. . Period. But now...shit...what have I done...shit...what did I say...?? Is an apology enough? So yes, I try very hard to fight fair..using actual words vs mental mind attack!. Fight Fair!! You know what I'm saying!!
So Very True! Fight Fair!!
Submitted by kellyj on
Whe it comes to fighting or disagreements I completely agree with you. There really is a right way and a wrong way...the wrong way is not fighting fair. I know what you are saying. Playing both sides of the fence, becoming a moving target and the duck and hide ambush are all diversionary tactics which infuriates me. When it starts to become a matter of winning instead of trying to find a resolution I can get very competitive in a hurry meaning....this is not a good quality unless winning is your goal. When this happens to me in the past I tend to go " OK.....if this is what you want I can be that way too. I'm trying my best to fight fair but if that's the way you want it........nice shooting solder, but two can play at that game."
Your comment " I tend to "go for the kill!" reminded me of this. Unfortunately, I learned from the best...my father was ruthless. For him...winning was the only goal. Resolution was not even on the radar screen. I'm not talking about raging or blowing a complete gasket here.....more to do with choice words and going straight for the juggler. These are the fights that are hard to come back from too....the ones that you say (anything) and things that you really don't mean of believe even in the moment your saying it but to the end goal of causing as much collateral damage as possible. I'm not proud to say that this was something that I learned from going up against a Master. It accomplishes nothing unless you feel the overwhelming need to win at the other person's expense to simply win the fight. Not GOOD!
J
Comrad J
Submitted by jennalemone on
Thanks. I really feel heard and understood by your response, J. And that you get it and have gone through similar things in relationships - coming from another point of vew (male and ADD). I know lots of my problems with dh are not from his ADD alone. It is what I am figuring out and, like you, I am trying to find my part in the difficulties...why do I tolerate too much from many sources? Thank you for your words of comradery. It is amazing to me that you respond so thoughtful to me even though at first long ago I was very blunt with you sometimes.
Your phrase, "Who never appears to take joy in your joy...." Makes me remember that when first married I was aware that if I acted happy and enthused about something, dh WOULD sabatoge it, start a disagreement, have a need that was urgent. I had forgotten that and have probably accepted it as normal by not letting him see my enthusiasm for anything. Stopped HAVING enthusiasm for anything so as not to "poke the beast" in him. Thanks for reminding me of that.
I'm Sorry To Be...
Submitted by kellyj on
right in this case. I said I thought I could see it. It takes one to know one right? I just wrote a long response to dedelight that may have some more things to think about. I know how hard this is to wrestle with but it does sound like you are on the right track. I will say that it is worth the pain and trouble do what you are doing though. I feel like I have left a lot of that behind me now and no longer feel poorly about myself just because someone else tells me to. i really don't remember you saying anything disrespectful or mean either ( no recollection of anything negative at all really) but maybe that's the very thing I'm talking about here. It really doesn't matter what anyone says to me one wah or another even if it's not flattering. I can take the parts I need to take from it to improve and throw the rest in the garbage without it affecting me. The key is....to be able to know the difference.
One more thing......I've had some success with dealing with some people who fit the kinds of things I've been saying with very good results on my end. This in itself makes you feel like you are in control of yourself and not feeling manipulated. I was really worried at times about my wife ( thinking for a while...uh oh..not again! ) but with her...I came to understand that it was coming from a different place than what I had been used to and she very consistently ( to a fault almost) was able to see her own errors in thinking too. To me...that says a lot. I don't expect perfection from her as long as she does not expect it from me. We've been getting along quite well now for a number of months without a single harsh word or argument. I think we've both come to accept each other much better....the good and the bad. no one is perfect ya know?
J
After Thought...thinking
Submitted by kellyj on
you might really like to read the post I made about the Victim, Persecutor and Rescuer I made a couple of days ago...or yesterday???? Anyway...it has a link to a website that I stumbled across that does a really good job of describing a lot of the things I was saying in a better way than I could ever do. It's not directly related to ADHD but it very much related to the things I was saying to you. I found it really helpful for me as yet....another view point to look at this stuff from. I find it so helpful when I can see these things at the time it happens. I don't think it's good to label people but at least to start with....it's helpful to make sense of things just to understand that it's not always on your end. It is important though to figure out what parts are and what parts aren't or you're still left standing there with your mouth open which I'm trying to avoid as much as possible. lol My therapist has reminded me at times that whenever there are two people involved....you are always 50% of the equation whether you like it or not. I hate when he does that! lol
J
Thank you
Submitted by AlmaVera on
Thank you, J. I am still trying to sort out a former relationship with someone diagnosed with ADHD as an adult. I am also realizing that I most likely have it myself. The dynamics of our relationship have puzzled and confused me. There were some things about him and how he thinks that I could readily identify with, but other things (which he sometimes said were just his ADHD) were where we really differed, and those sadly, ended up more powerful than the many things we shared. It is still painful, as he was someone I loved and saw a future with, and originally said he felt the same.
The biggest issues were related to things in your post. I often felt that it wasn't necessarily a competition, but that he had to make the two of us equally dysfunctional when he felt worse about himself. He didn't want to see me as doing 'better,' even if I was.
Another thing you mentioned in your post also puzzled me: words that didn't match actions. In the beginning, he told me some things about himself that I didn't really see evidence of during our relationship. And his basic outlook changed when hyperfocus ended, too. I don't know if he is really just unaware that he's not as he describes himself (I do think this was true sometimes), or if he was describing who he wants to be, or if he was mirroring back what he thought I wanted to hear. But seeing it happening was always so confusing. I would do or say something based on what he had said, but his reaction would be like "Huh?" Luckily, we communicated a lot by text, so I could go back and verify I wasn't nuts, but it didn't explain why he did this.
Speaking of relationship hyperfocus, is that more of a 'guy with ADHD' thing, I wonder? It seems that I read about that here more from non-ADHD women with male ADHD partners, than vice versa. I've done it with hobbies, but not people. When it was going on, he seemed more attentive and relatively open with his feelings (still much less than other guys I've known), but when he flipped, it seemed he went out of his way to not be attentive or loving when he had a chance to -- bluntly telling me that it wasn't 'fun' or 'meaningful' to be that way, or that it was 'boring,' that he couldn't do it or sustain it. I saw him be that way, though, so I know he was able. I've never heard of anyone saying things like that to someone they supposedly loved, til I came here. And there was the lack of interest or show of concern during some really serious health issues I had. It didn't matter when I told him these things hurt me, it just never ever changed. I'd get blamed for feeling hurt, blamed for him not being able to treat me better, and blamed for him feeling bad about it.
By contrast, I like doing little things to show people I care about them, which causes me a lot of problems when my symptoms get worse and I forget special dates, or can't get myself to actually do what I want to do. Knowing that I might be hurting somebody will get me out of my shame spiral and moving more than anything else does. He liked me doing things for him at first, but then he started criticizing me for being the way I am. It felt like he wanted me to be ashamed of something I think is a positive quality in myself and think it's dysfunctional instead. I know there is a lot of pain inside of him. I know he has worked really hard and been successful in compensating for some of his symptoms. He's a great dad. And I know he didn't ask for ADHD, but sometimes his treatment felt mean. And with what I'm learning about hyperfocus, I'm not even sure if he ever really loved me. It's just a painful, confusing, sad episode.
I'm embarrassed when I think how long I hung on, hoping things would get better, when his treatment just got worse. I made mistakes, too, but I tried incredibly hard to understand him. In the end, he said he just wished I'd tried to understand him. Ah well, lessons learned. I don't know if he will ever get to a point where I'm not demonized or if he'll see the good qualities in me. Luckily, I don't need him to. But it still hurts that he found it so easy to move on when he wanted to find someone new, probably way more than it should.
My son is currently just starting the evaluation process for EF/ADHD issues, and I am trying to learn as much as I can so that I can help prevent him developing other companion issues, if possible. He is a sweet, compassionate, and sensitive kid, and I don't want to think he somehow has to lose that due to his ADHD.
Your posts make me feel better about that, J. Thank you.
Alma Vera...
Submitted by kellyj on
you mentioned a couple of things that I know I have run into myself...but there is one thing that I don't hear that get's mentioned on this site but definitely has a role to play with me concerning hyper-focus. I hyper-focus all the time! But even before I was diagnosed.....I learned ways to break out of it somewhat as needed to be able to be with other people which was important to me ( the extrovert part of me ). I also learned a lot from playing sports which requires you to be aware of other people at the same time you are focusing on what you are doing. I think this happens over a long period of time so you don't really realize it. The other thing you mentioned about the difference between men and women with ADHD ( which I know very little about ) however.....my wife has a female co-worker with ADHD who she noticed had some definitely similarities to me and some definite differences. One of those difference seemed to be with the thing you just mentioned. Her co-worker seems to get lost at times with certain activities when she has met her for drinks. One of them being video poker. It doesn't appear to be a problem (gambling) but she really gets into it and mentally disappears when she's doing it but.....she also seems to be able to be attentive socially at the same time. I hate gambling myself but....if I were in that same situation like her and I was hyper-focusing on it.....forget about trying to have a conversation with me. I'm gone! My wife also reports that her co-worker seems to be more connected in general but I suspect that might be more of a difference between men and women than anything else saying...the hyper-focus manifests itself differently based on all things considered between men and women. I for example.....am not one to call a friend up to go sit in a Starbucks and chat for hours. I call my friends up to do a specific activity and we chat while were doing it. No activity....no sitting around and connecting. I find this to be true across the board. I don't go visit friends or anyone unless I have a reason other than to sit, talk and catch up. I need to be moving in order to connect. It's never been my way of connecting with people. This may be a stereo type but it appears that men are different in how they do the same thing so my thinking is that this would also be true with how the ADHD symptoms will appear....a difference in priorities? I say this without judgment...simply an observation. Another way to say this would be....not so much how we focus, but WHAT we focus on. If that makes sense?
So the thing that doesn't get mentioned in disassociation. What I'm talking about is something that I have come to learn about myself ( specifically ) in regards to growing up in a somewhat abusive environment at times. I don't have a dissociative disorder per se...but I learned to do it as needed to protect myself from depression and painful emotional moments. To put it simply.....I learned to turn off like a light switch at the drop of a hat. This is something that I have always been aware of on a conscious level most of the time and it is an effective psychic defense from painful emotions. It allows me to shut off and then meter the amount of pain I take at any given period of time or......as it has been pointed out to me from others on occasion. Disappear. It seems I have control of this and know when I do it too. More like ignoring someone or a situation....on STEROIDS! I say I'm aware of it because I can remember even when I was young.....going to my "happy place" and feeling like.....wow, that works. lol On a conscious level. I can fip that switch on and off with ease and not let things affect me. This is different from hyper focus. That has taken me a long time to spot and recognize and learn to switch it on and off aside from the times I mentioned with sports. There...I learned to turn it on big time to an extreme to be able to perform....but turning it back off has always been a lot more difficult yet I have learned to mange this aspect of my ADHD without too much trouble. What I have just recently noticed however....is that my wife is angry or starts on me about something and I reach the point where I'm not coping well...I tend to disassociate with her and all connection is gone. That's on my end. Someone seeing this would not be able to see a difference between that and hyper-focus but I definitely can now. Hyper focus appears more randomly in stressful and not stressful times. Mostly when I focusing solely on something that needs my full attention whether it be fun or not so fun. Either way.....it doesn't appear to be a psychic defense but more just ADHD. Another way to say this is......my hyper focus is complete lack of metal multi-tasking. lol Very singular and intense and everything else just falls away including time. This appears to my the very reason I have time issues in the first place. My internal time clock just stops when I am in hyper focus mode...other wise...I can gage time quite well in all other aspects as long as I don't go into hyper focus mode.....if I'm hyper focusing on time itself....I could probably tell you what time it is to the nearest minute give or take.
But this disassociation aspect I'm talking about is something I have become more and more aware of especially under stress. It allows me to continue to function without any emotional upheaval or anxiety until I have the time to deal with things more slowly. It works great while doing sports or high intensity activities ( combined with hyper-focus? look out. I'm unstoppable, unflappable and can move calmly under the most chaotic of circumstances including...dealing with unpleasant social situation. I just fip that switch and poof.....it all disappears. No problem. But this is exactly what I have learning not to do at certain times especially with my wife if she is angry. I've had to learn to deal with my anxiety AND deal with her at the same time and not go into dissociative mode. That's where I can either snap and lose my temper or not. So far.....I seem to be getting that under control and that's exactly where and why it comes from it seems. I'm simply learning to deal with and manage intense anxiety without using this mode as a maladaptive strategy. If someone like me who has learned this themselves suddenly finds that they aren't able to use it...your pretty much SOL until you find a another strategy as an alternative.
J
Your description of
Submitted by AlmaVera on
Your description of dissociation under stress gave me a lot to think about. Thank you for taking the time to respond.
Luckily, I don't need him to.
Submitted by s00manyquestions on
Luckily, I don't need him to. But it still hurts that he found it so easy to move on when he wanted to find someone new, probably way more than it should.
Ohh Hun...ADD or Not...a Break Up is a Break Up! As we speak (type)...right now, I'm sitting in my own self denial that in 4 days...4!! I'm moving out. To a whole new world I'm horrified about! If Anything ever meant anything in your relationship...it will hurt! At least there was no time wasted...right? My heart aches...eyes pool with tears and that gulp...just won't go down.
I also know how it feels to wonder about the years that passed...At THAT time: Did you love him? Did he say he loved you? Did you do Anything and Everything you could have done...? If so, Don't feel any remorse!! Breathe...You ARE and WILL be absolutely fine! This is your chance to find that YOU...the one that is speaking now...the one that: " Dont ever do anything that is contingent on someone else." Don't let anyone or anything tell or define your worthe! Learn to wear your own skin and love it.
Heads up!! I know. Do you like country music? There is a beautiful song / duet done by Faith Hill and Garth -forgot name....oh yeah...Like we Never Loved at All. Listen to it! ...Actually....find yourself a glass of wine, read some threads...put some headphones on...and rock out and let those negative self images leave with each tear and breath!! They're sing your feelings...I promise....and that's not given out often.
Thank you for the kind reply,
Submitted by AlmaVera on
Thank you for the kind reply, s00manyQs. I know I loved him. He didn't say he loved me very often at all, but I treasured it every time he did. But I do also have regrets. There are things I would have done differently, ways I would have reacted differently. Things that happened that were out of my control, but I don't think he believed me. I wish he had thought I was worth fighting for, but he didn't. I think we could have figured out a way to make this work. We have the tools and we have the brains (imperfectly functioning as they are, lol). But it wasn't my decision to make.
I am learning from this in so many ways. And yeah, I am singing songs in my car a lot, lol. I sometimes wonder what the people next to me at stop lights think, but then I just figure I gave them a funny story to tell someone when they get to their destination. Wait til the weather warms up, and they'll get to hear me, too, when my windows are rolled down! hee hee
You will have tough days ahead, I know. But keep writing here. You will get through this. I took the end of my marriage (which I didn't want, and which devastated me) as a chance to start over and learn who I am. I questioned everything I thought I knew about myself, I dug up every thing that I could find in my past that was harming me now, and tried to heal it. I'm not done yet (something I learned big from this last relationship), but even so, I'm more 'me' than I ever have been. It only took me nearly 50 years to get here, but when I go to my doctor and she tells me I look younger and healthier than I did a few years ago, I know I'm on the right track. ;) You can do it, too! *hugs*
I'm 55, and I too am digging
Submitted by Strangebird on
I'm 55, and I too am digging up every thing in my past that was harming me (which is a lot) but it tends to leave me feeling resentful toward so many people that I've been so good to, and patient with, who are not here or are being so awful to me. I get to a point where I feel like I've wasted 55 years that could have been great for me, and I tried to make them great for other people who clearly never cared, let alone appreciated it. So here I am at 55 years old, getting a divorce I don't want, really REALLY angry at the counselor who wouldn't read and accept that he wasn't qualified to counsel a couple with a newly diagnosed adult ADD, I know we could have fixed our marriage, I'm left with all of the responsibility for raising 2 children and I have 3 children in their 30's already I hadn't planned on being a single mother again, I'm trying to make friends and don't know how & don't trust people. I feel like I wasted the first 55 years, I'm pissed!
I'm so sorry that your
Submitted by AlmaVera on
I'm so sorry that your sisters turned on you like that -- how horrible that they can't see what your life has been for you. I can understand how you're feeling right now. Growing up with a mother with undiagnosed mental illnesses, and then putting my life on hold to take care of her until my early 30s put me right in the pattern of marrying someone more like her than I could see until it was too late. And I became much like you described. Always worried, always stressed, always doing the drudgework while my ex was the witty, charming, shining star amongst his friends. Dealing with what I know now are my own ADHD symptoms on top of his mental issues (and probable ADHD, too?) sapped the life out of me. I was devastated when he wanted to split and be with one of those young, adoring grad students he met. But now I am exceedingly grateful for the chance to start over, even though I was in my late 40s when I started. The old things are hard to unlearn, and the hurt, anger, resentment, shame, and feelings of loss can be difficult to heal. You know you will never get those years back to live over. My biggest regret is that I didn't walk away from him a few years earlier. He told me that I needed to take care of him and I did it willingly because I loved him and he was my husband, but as I have seen over and over, men like him will always find women who will be drawn by his outward light and charm. He won't ever be alone. If I had to start over, I would have preferred to do it at a younger age. :p
I don't think you have to go all the way to being a "b" or a nag, and certainly you don't need to start twerking and flipping people off, unless that's what you want -- and if it is, then go for it!! :) I think there is something very powerful about a woman who is kind and compassionate, but strong and self-assured. That is what I have been trying to work toward. Not always successfully, by any means. It has meant setting new boundaries for myself -- I will be kind and compassionate, but I will no longer be a doormat. I am working to love myself enough to walk away from people who treat me in unhealthy ways, even when they are having problems. Like you probably were, I was trained that when someone was dealing with an illness or other problem, they got carte blanche to treat me like crap, and I was supposed to take care of them besides. No more. It has felt wrong and selfish to put myself first, but it gets easier over time.
There IS a middle ground there, jennalemone, where we can somehow hang on to our values, but yet be able to stand up for ourselves more, too. You will not only get yourself back, but it will be a you with kindness and compassion borne of the wisdom of your experience.
Tolerance used to be a good thing
Submitted by jennalemone on
Thanks Alma, yeah, we must have been accustomed from a young age to a certain type of person who needed to have people like us willing to TOLERATE them. Then when we did tolerate them, they found us boring. We are on similar paths, my friend.
My sister and I used to sit
Submitted by Strangebird on
My sister and I used to sit and complain about our problems in our marriages, she's separated also but won't divorce because of our religious beliefs, and I find out now that she's having these conversations with my Husband (soon to be ex-Husband). So not only have I lost a 23 year marriage that I was the only one who worked at (or so it seems) but I'm now being labeled angry by everyone, criticized for working long hours when I'm the financial support here running a law practice, and I can't complain about anything or I'm validating their arguments that I'm angry. Not that I can complain anyway, they've all abandoned me. My Husband wants a divorce, I don't, He's threatened me with it for 23 years, he's happily moving on, and they all (myfamily included) feel sorry for him because I work in a profession that labels me a "b". Dang, I just want to be weak and have someone take care of me for the first time in my life. The years before him were bad, what drew me to him was the hyper focus, the thought that I'd found someone who was going to make me the center of his universe and "take care of me", rather than me take care of him. Wow, did I ever get that wrong!! I feel like a huge part of me died, I can't find it.
Yes J..I totaly agree with
Submitted by s00manyquestions on
Yes J..I totaly agree with Rosered...'..I realized I can't change someone." This is soo true and its what I'm currently working on myself. You can't cant control other people...but you can control what YOU do!! Focus on that. Its not about him. Its time for you and take it. No excuses....nothing will be legit enough..and if you don't; you know it's absolutely out of fear. ..maybe I'm wrong..but I know this trail. PS!!! What out for the damn MUDD PIT ahead!! Jus stand firm, look at the horizon and move forward. One step at a time....
I love and wish it was easy as typing. But I'm not 'ice queen' or thundrblast. (dont know..?) I'm trying to make light of your...and my situation (thats happening right now)....F........Breathe......OOOhhhmmmm...Breathe....find YOUR center. This yours n know one elses.
Anyways..I know n feel your pain. Abolutely. It hurts..to the core w a double edge dagger!!! But its ok. Day by day..or minute by minute!
My husband has rewritten the
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
My husband has rewritten the past. As I see it, we've both messed up, and there might well be good reasons for him withdrawing financial and emotional support from me. But he has never acknowledged withdrawing and he has told family members that he would like to spend more time with me but I make him feel unwelcome at our house. He lives with his parents, for whom he's a caregiver; his father refuses to get other live-in assistance, and so my husband feels stuck there. But yet, he says the reason he doesn't come home more is that he's unwelcome here. This is despite the fact that I implore him to come more often and despite the fact that I communicate with him and he doesn't call or email me or respond to my messages. I have busted my ass to keep our marriage going, he hasn't, but now he claims he's the one who wants to be here but can't because allegedly I'm keeping him out. This bothers me for two reasons: 1) I'm an extremely honest person. I don't lie. I don't like it when other people lie. I don't like it when my husband lies to make himself look good, and it makes me look bad. 2) I could possibly live with this big whopper if my husband actually changed his behavior and expressed an actual interest in being at our house and finding substitute care for his parents and working on being a better communicator. But he isn't doing so. So I'm getting nothing out of this rewritten history.
His version of our marriage
Submitted by lulu18 on
I, too am married to a very charming, gregarious and friendly man.To eveyone else, that is. Not that he is abusive at all, he is simply absent. Even when he's here. Especially when he's here. He is initially shocked when I recount facts of things he has done. Then he gets angry and goes into denial, then gets sad and remorseful. The next morning it is as if nothing ever happenned. I feel like I living in that Drew Barrymore movie " Fifty First Dates". If you've ever seen it, you'll know what I mean. Jenna Lemone, it is good to see your name again- I quietly follow this forum daily, but rarely post. I understand anger- I have spent the last 3 years working diligently on my anger. Last year I spent every weekend for 8 months in training to be a certified yoga teacher , in the hope that the intensive practice would help heal my anger. It didn't, but I did a lot of yoga! It is a daily struggle, but my son keeps me honest. He tells me if I have yelled lately. Now I am trying to stop the silent seething, the constant revisiting of memories that make me angry at myself, angry at him and full of self-pity. Not good. I have returned to journaling and drawing, which were things I used to do before I was married. That helps, especially at night, after I put my son to bed (he's 10) and I immediately retreat to my bedroom and close the door. My husbandand I have slept in separate bedrooms for years, and this is my sanctuary. My health has taken a big hit, and I now have several health challenges I must attend to. I have taken care of my husband's considerable health problems (most self inflicted through neglect) for too long and I no longer involve myself in any of that. My son has several challenges that are stressful and costly, but I cannot neglect myself. After all, who will care for my little guy if I'm not here? So, I journal, pray, meditate and try to take the next right step. Many thanks to you all for sharing.
Rosered, how does he treat his parents?
Submitted by dedelight4 on
Rosered, I was just wondering how you husband treats his parents? You've said he takes care of them. Does that mean he physically takes care of their needs and everything? But, he didn't do that with you, right? If he does "take care of them", how can he keep it up without the ADHD symptoms showing through? Unless, since they are the ones who helped form his psyche, they might not "get it". Do they KNOW he has ADHD?
Sorry for all the questions, was just wondering.
Here are some of the things I
Submitted by PoisonIvy on
Here are some of the things I know about the situation: 1) Mom has late-stage Alzheimer's disease. She is now receiving hospice services. This came about because after my husband described some of her recent symptoms to me, I once again prevailed on him to take her to the doctor and find out what was going on. I then had the thought that she might be eligible for hospice services. After a few false starts, H got her to the doctor and she was indeed found eligible for hospice. 2) H cooks meals (two or three per day) for his parents and does modest housekeeping. His mother is incontinent; he changes her "diapers" when they're wet. She has not had a bath or shower in at least three years. 3) H has said that he barely talks to his father. His father is a difficult person to get along with but I do find it very concerning that H is now cutting off his father from communication, too. 4) H doesn't like calling this his job, but he is paid by his dad and its his only source of income right now. So maybe he does what he does because he's getting paid. I don't know.
So, this is his "job"
Submitted by dedelight4 on
So, he does this because he gets paid, I guess. And being a husband and father doesn't bring him a paycheck. right? If he doesn't talk to his father, and his mother has hospice care, how does he think he's fully taking care of his parents? Does it seem like he gets to be the "kid" again, being back home? He can do SOME things, but it won't be at the level that you or I would do something, when it comes to "taking CARE of someone'"......or the type of deep cleaning, cooking, etc. that you and I would do?
It almost seems like he didn't enjoy being married, so he just "checked out", and went back home. And, since it was easier to blame you for everything, he did that instead of taking any personal responsibility for ANYTHING. He grew up with his parents and they aren't "demanding" anything from him, so he can basically do what he wants.....right? (besides what he's supposed to do for them) It seems like he just never grew up, and doesn't ever intend to. interesting.
My H has done the same things.
Submitted by overwhelmedwife on
There was a time when H was drinking more (I didn't know that) and medicating more (and I didn't realize that either), that he was accusing me of saying things that I had never said. Crazy things!
He was so adamant that I thought maybe he was dreaming these things and the dreams were so realistic that he believed them. That is my only explanation as to why he will SCREAM and insist that I said these things, call me a liar, etc. Totally crazy. I can tell that he really believes that I said those things.
Also, I began to suspect that he has Alzheimer's or dementia.
Now that I know he was also drinking and mismanaging meds, I think it caused some delusional thinking.
when we were separated, he told lots of people these crazy stories. They believed him. Later on, they began to see that he was unstable. He no longer makes these crazy claims about those stories.
There were also some other odd things....we would be driving down a familiar street and suddenly he would miss a turn. I know that we all do that when distracted, but even once I pointed oit out, he was totally confused, and acted like he didn't know where he was. Later I found out that he was taking prescription pain meds, and he's now addicted to them.
We recently went to a brand new restaurant. The owner came and talked at our table. H really LOVED the food there. We chatted with the owner for awhile. A few days later we went back and H had NO MEMORY of being there before. Once the owner came and talked to us again, H slowly began remembering.
detaching from family is lonely business
Submitted by lulu18 on
Reading about what you went through with your sister, Jenna Lemone, hit very close to home for me. I am so sorry that you were on the receiving end of someone elses ignorance, for that is what this truly is . Family members think they "know us" and have the right to pass judgment, and it hurts. My sister was also a close confidant and friend, someone I took care of, helped, and coddled. Then when she turned on me with her own anger at my perceived "disrespect" ( I had the audacity to disagree with her), I finally wised up and told her to go away and not to contact me. This was the hardest thing I've ever done, as I have very little family, her children are the only cousins my son has, yet I felt I had to do this to survive. She is also a very harsh person, self-centered, but she gets what she needs/wants. I wondered many times- should I be more like her? I'm not getting what I want/need- should I just be a *b like she is and see if it works? In the end I just couldn't do it. It has been 2 years since I set clear boundaries with her and I feel stronger, better and calmer where family is concerned. I still rarely attend family functions. My son and I created some new ways for spending the holidays and have had a pretty good time. Am I too nice? Yes. Do I need to be more assertive and tougher- yes. But I can't be mean and hard like that. It's bad for me. Yes, I do need a new map and new territory to explore. I think that's what we're all trying to do here.
How does your son handle that
Submitted by Strangebird on
How does your son handle that? My sister keeps saying that my perceptions are distorted by my anger, but she'll only communicate with me by text or email, which allows her to interpret my words as angry when they're not intended that way. Then, of course, I'm angry. She's always had this ability to be harsh, self-centered and judgmental, even with our grandparents. I guess I need to be more like her, but I don't LIKE that side of her, I don't WANT to be like that, and after a few years she always looks back and regrets these times and this behavior. My biggest problem is whether to try to repair this and risk it again down the road. My 11 & 12 year old have a ton of resentment right now about their "family falling apart" which includes their Aunt not being around, even though she's 13 hours away. But I'm ready to start some new traditions and forge new territory also, and the boys don't seem ready to do that. They're also adopted, which leaves me worried about abandonment issues that frequently arise with adopted kids.
dealing with difficult family members
Submitted by lulu18 on
My sister lives 13 hours away
Submitted by Strangebird on
My sister lives 13 hours away by car, so she's either in the picture or out of the picture. As for my husband, and probably yours, I feel they don't always "lack" an ability to control their behavior as much as they choose not to control it. Adults have the benefit of being able to say "you can't make me" and it has teeth, you can't make them. My boys are torn apart with their father's impending departure, and now he's gone into a depression and it's hitting him that he's destroy his children, his marriage, and himself, and he's a mess, so he's very melancholy and looking for sympathy. I'd like to get my hopes up that he'll look for reconciliation, and come back wanting to make things right. But, if he does come back it will be the same cycle as our initial relationship, hyperfocus followed by years of threats to leave. I need to help the boys adjust to this new life and ove on. I want the memories to disipate, I want his memories to disipate, but I want the boys to remember what it's like to have him here. That just sounds so awful.
Ohh the tears
Submitted by s00manyquestions on
I don't know why I do this to myself...I really don't. He's fast asleep and I did it. I went thru his phone. I'm not proud of that because I sure as hell wouldn't like it. But I did. I'm falling a part. I know...how do they do it....how do they just go about their day like no big deal...nothing happened. And he just non chalantly tell people yah..I broke it off with her. That's all. I know I somewhat asked for these tears. I wouldn't have known..if I kept out. But now I have. I have only four more days to get out of here...and for the last 3...I kinda 'mini retreated'. Denied...now sad and overwhelmed with the reality of my life. How do I go from a house, w white pickett fence garden with tonz of veggies. landscaping (i love plants) to now....living in a house with strangers...in a room...a CRAZY dog that eats furniture and the decor of....Allison Chair Land...?! I know they're only things..but I'm still holding on to childhood conditioning of this life..with this man...pets..kids..so forth. Delusional Illusion. I'm SSooo tired. I randomly pasted out (on the sofa that is) at 730 tonight at woke up at 9. I had just made potstickers then ran to the sofa and I was out! I feel like I want and will shut down ...