If you are struggling as I have to find emotional, mental, and spiritual well being...You may be stuck in an illusion or a place of partial reality. This has followed me since my childhood and surfaces in most all of my relationships. It is reversible, but, it must be recognized, and dealt with.
I tend to be a Rescuer the right one! with all the answers, who would argue you down that I'm right, and I had a life time of hard work and successes to prove I was right....My Wife tends to lean toward a Persecutor or Blamer, never wanting to take responsibility for anything...Most of our problems or found is this truth; being that a Rescuer and a Persecutors are in direct opposition to one another!....I'm working on me, and I can tell you life has gotten so much better as I have faced up to my own dysfunction; and it has had a very positive influence on my wife...
I found this great article that first brought this to my attention, if any one would like to read it, this is the site: http://www.lynneforrest.com/articles/2008/06/the-faces-of-victim/ There is hope for our marriages and for those of us who will become of aware of US, and discipline ourselves into change.... Blaming my wife's add/adhd for all our problems was just the cowards way out....
Blessings friends; May Peace be with you today!
C
Very good piece, C
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
I'll take some more time with it. I appreciate that it's so clearly written. It certainly explains that remark, "He/she offends from the victim position." Offends meaning tries to overpower, get even, control, force. Lord it over, prove to oneself that one is better. Show that other person that one has it together. Maintain oneself separate while dumping on others. And on and on and on. Humans being inventive, we've created a lot of varieties of one up/one down power game
In my opinion your bottom line pursuit of acceptance, of not participating in every encounter, but choosing where you can act according to your best values is the effective way to get out of the hamster wheel round and round.
Minding one's own business.
One downside that is an upside to that good article you found is that readers highly invested in a present view of themselves that locks them in a one up position or locks them into "poor me-he/she does that to me" are not going to be comfortable as the writer bores on into the power innards of their and my "I'm the good one, he/she's the skunk" mentality
Blessings for your journey today, C
Signed,
Recovering
I'm going to lay down /
my sword and shield /
down by the riverside /
ain't going to study war no more
Nice Points Now
Submitted by c ur self on
Yep; no matter how informative and helpful an article is....If awareness of the man in the mirror; and a desire for self study (learning about one's own tendencies and realities) isn't what is driving me...Then I might as well go fishing:)
Did I just give fishing a bad rap??...LOL...
C
I think you landed a whopper
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Thanks as always, C.
Timely Topic ...C
Submitted by kellyj on
And since NON is here commenting....and both of you read my last adventure on my vacation on the house boat...I can apply this directly to what just happened almost perfectly.
My wife: The Persecutor
Her Brother: The Victim
Me: put in the position of the Rescuer...but not actually wanting to be...and trying my best not to be.
This is a really interesting over lay here. From a non-Rescuer in this case (being me). I had no choice and look at what happened? I became furious!! lol
But if I was a Rescuer in that sense....I might have gotten something out of it instead by being that way and it might not have necessarily made me angry? I might have fell right into place with my own dysfunctional piece of the puzzle? But that probably would have felt empty and thankless and like "no one ever appreciates me and all that I do for them?" Possibly?
I can say this since at different times in my life....I have played each part of this myself. Mostly however....from being with one of these other players and fit the role that they put me into and just played that part without question? The down side of being a Chameleon in that respect?
The up side to being a Chameleon...is not having to be any of these things and being able to adapt and change as needed. As I came smack in the face with this myself with this boating situation....I had a very specific role that I understood clearly...that was neither: Victim, Persecutor, Rescuer or Chameleon.
In my case...I was the Captain, Skipper or Leader of a bunch of people who refused to step out of these roles they were in and become subordinate instead...at least for just a little while or when the time called for it in a very loose non hierarchical way for a specific moment and that's exactly what they didn't ( or couldn't do ).
Look at how crazy that got C? Here's a real bona-fide situation that is starring everyone right in the face.....with real life and death consequences....and yet no one could see it except for me? They were all to busy...paying attention to something else...instead of paying attention to the one person who actually knew what he was doing. Yet no one would argue that for a second or say they knew better?
I think another way of saying...:"minding your own business"....could be to say..."paying attention to what you're doing...while being mindful of others at the same time?" That's a whole lot different....than putting your nose in where it doesn't belong (or is not welcome)....and worrying about what everyone else is doing right or wrong? (and then blaming them for how they are affecting you)
Or conversely.....focusing entirely on what you are doing at the exclusion of everyone else.
No matter which way you slice it.....each one of those 3 faces of being a victim....is either doing one or the other of those two things and no one who is in either one of these roles...is actually integrating themselves and adapting to what is really going on around them in reality?
And from the Captains or Leader role that I volunteered for up front? I could have managed that entire boat alone if I wanted to with no one there. I didn't need anyone to help me do that and I could have done it all completely by myself. That is...if I were alone? But I wasn't alone. I had 4 other people doing things that were making my job even more difficult since no one was listening or deferring themselves to me which actually caused all the problems that I was running into. As it turned out....I just did those things anyway and stopped trying to get people to cooperate which ended up being an exhausting experience for me and much harder than it needed to be.
Honestly....I had a really good time personally and for the most part...enjoyed myself. What I didn't enjoy was being responsible for a bunch of victims who were doing their best in getting themselves killed and me running around making sure they didn't. That was not suppose to part of the program but yet.....there I was? LOL
I had no choice but to be the skipper...and the rescuer....all at the same time. That was too much responsibility...for one person to handle all at the same time yet I had the ability to do it anyway and everyone else was just fine with that. That is....as long as I came to their rescue....they were really not concerned with the other half or role I had to play as long as I did that silently and try and get them to subordinate to me?
Ironically....when I did discuss this later with my wife...she said "well...all you had to do was just be nice about it and speak up ahead of time and we would have understood you instead of doing it the way you did it."
Next time....I will be able to do that (now). This is still my wife denying....that no matter which way I said it (which I actually was being nicely assertive) it wouldn't have mattered at the time. They were all too busy playing their own part in this triangle and no one was going to do what I wanted them to do or subordinate or defer themselves to me....unless I had a complete melt down hissy fit which I almost did any way. The only thing that woke anyone up enough to pay attention....was after there was already a problem that there was no one of talking or rationalizing any way out of. That's the only time....that anyone would listen to me no matter how angry or nice I was. My wife's comment to me...was BS and just more denial....in 20/20 hind sight?
Once that actually happened....and they actually stepped down from where they were. Things went smoothly and there were no other problems since they actually allowed me to lead...and they were actually following.
If there is any moral to this story here C.....what was needed was a strong leader who nows what they are doing....to counter these all 3 of these victim roles no matter which one they are. My failure this time around....was just not insisting and exerting my authority more....not less like my wife might think was the problem. I defaulted...to being a Chameleon again instead of doing this. That's that becoming invisible thing I was mentioning. That's the part...that I do have some say or control in for myself. I'll know what to do...the next time I'm in that position...and won't make that same mistake twice.
Rock.....Paper....Scissors......Leader. A Leader...trumps all:)
J
That's it, you said it, J
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
... at different times in my life....I have played each part of this myself. Mostly however....from being with one of these other players and fit the role that they put me into and just played that part without question....
...a bunch of people who refused to step out of these roles they were in
That's it. If people are so committed to playing through the script of the dynamic they are repeating that the only way they have for you (or anyone) to be around them when they're doing their dynamic is to assume a part ...in the dynamic....that they assign and that will allow them continue the dynamic.... (would you like your brat with or without mustard?)....then THAT's the problem: they will do their dynamic through wind and hail, and it ain't gonna work with them...at all... if you do something that doesn't fit into THEIR dynamic.
That's the situation to decline to participate in. It's a hamster wheel. Reason and common sense do not prevail against a hamster wheel.
J when I read about that incredible voyage with all of the looptydoop going on as you piloted the boat trying to do a good job of what needed doing, I remembered some online pieces about stepmothers that I've read.
The short of it I think can apply to spouses ...I don't think they have to be stepmothers and step fathers...just spouses, when blood kin family get together. The non-blood kin member can get marginalized in these get togethers where there's a cluster of or a pair of blood kin: parent & adult child, in your case two adult siblings doing a family oft-repeated dynamic with each other. Look up "lonely stepmother" if you're inclined.
Hearing what isn't being said J...:(
Submitted by c ur self on
How to avoid confrontation when it's a foreboding thought that is always in the back of our minds...Or should be! :):)
J, if you know that you are the most talented, educated, and able to lead or produce the best results in a certain undertaking that involves other's (especially your wife) Do you think the way in which you deliver your message, expectations or request to them (her) could possibly be being seen or received as egotistical on your part? Or make others feel like you think they are inferior? Even if there was absolutely no intent??
I no from experience; that when I'm on a role, with about any type project or task that I'm comfortable with. I can speak in a tone and manner that I would call direct, to the point, and with accomplishment in mind...(Now; it doesn't matter if you and most guy's would get it....I'm not dealing w/ you or most guy's) My experience w/ my wife (majorly competitive spirit) has taught me she might call it Offensive!, Non-explanatory!, and Authoritative!....In other words, I lost her, and it's my faulty and I'm an Ass Hole....And I'm like what just happened to our beautiful day??? Clueless?
Like I said earlier; I accept our difference's....Calmly getting on the same page; (BEFORE THE FACT... LOL) with about any mutual endeavor that is in anyway a detour from the normal...Will be priceless even if it cost us to change plan's or make adjustments to those plans we were taking for granted that would just work out....Workout? How many years; does C need to realize; things usually don't just work out in our relationship? I'm getting it....Thankfully!!!
C
Without Question ..C
Submitted by kellyj on
This is something I've been aware of from the first time I came to this forum. My normal....everyday tone or way of speaking is very non-offensive. I've read where people with ADHD get in trouble with holding jobs or getting fired from...."an attitude problem". As Dr Russel Barkley explained....ODD does kind of go with the territory.
But in my case....I had a different situation growing up which would not allow that to happen. Any dissension or opposition I might have displayed was met with such severe and instantaneous consequences....I walked around in fear all the time and mostly never said a word to the contrary ever. In other words...I learned to keep my mouth shut and dealt with that in other ways. On the positive side of this....I learned to control what I said...and think very hard about those things ahead of time....or else....if I didn't know how to say something...I didn't say it at all. I grew up in the old school environment that said..,."children should be seen...and not heard." And how!!
This takes on a completely different set of problems and being defiant or oppositional gets converted to something else entirely. Not learning to assert yourself...and being afraid every time you open your mouth....makes it difficult to learn how to assert yourself and speak with any authority at all? That really is the end result of that kind of situation.
Somewhere way back at the beginning of anything I've written here....I know I said that I thought that most of the way I speak or say things comes from being around my friends who mostly....are all friends that I swam, did sports, or all these activities with. In the context of sports...there is no wishy washy....sorta kinda way of communicating. The same as it is with Sailing. The same as it was with Baseball (catcher...they're the ones usually barking orders and directions to the rest of the team as well as tying to antagonize the batters and pissing them off if you can) The same as it is with Motorcycles. The same as it was with Water Polo ( I was the Captain there too in my Sr Year of High School) The same as with anything of this nature where you need to say things rather directly and forcibly. The same as it was when I owned my own business and really was the boss in a very competitive....dog eat dog environment.
C...I can tell you. I was at a distinct disadvantage right from the start. I also don't have a very powerful voice but especially when I was really young. I sounded more like Mickey Mouse than I did anything else. I also looked much younger for my age than others on average (along with my voice sounded much younger and weaker and part of that was from the fear and insecurity that this situation created for me. This might be great when you get older....but I'm telling you....it's not so great growing up as a boy as you might remember? It took me years to get over my insecurities and my fear of speaking up in this manner but I did over time and with that...I learned to fit in which eventually I managed to do. Part of the way I did that I think now looking back....was putting an edge on the way I spoke to compensate and get people to pay attention or listen in context to all of those situations where this would apply.
When I was done swimming personally.....I later couched swimming for several teams, became a Life Guard and even became an Umpire for Little League at a request from my neighbor who needed someone to fill in when they lost someone and needed someone right away. When you've got fathers screaming at you...and calling you every name in the book....you tend to get over those things after a while and take on a persona that matches that in an overall sense. Even to the point of becoming a crowd control security bouncer at rock concerts with 10,000 patrons and half of them are intoxicated and highly unruly. To the point...of becoming physically violent and having to wrestle them to the ground.
And if the friends you have are doing the same thing....this is the manner in which fits and is accepted in the right context. I'm completely comfortable now in being in an authority position and speaking with authority under the right conditions. If you can imagine yourself in any of these contexts....this is the thing that is required and that in itself...is not a problem. Strongly...if I have to. And that is not a problem either.
But now....what happens when you aren't in that context anymore? In essence.....I never learned to speak in a milder more palatable way of asserting myself....when that context doesn't exist which is absolutely true. I never learned to do that like I should have because I was simply not allowed to.
Outside of that context....I normally speak in a pretty non offensive, rather casual non aggressive way and tend to be less assertive...than more. I still don't have a big booming voice or one that is harsh when I speak. I've never been fired from any job in my life....and have never had personality conflicts with anyone in these contexts since speaking in my more normal (when I'm not venting or angry) way of speaking is mostly conciliatory more than anything.
The problem is C....I don't have an in between. It's literally missing from my repertoire and that's the very thing that set my wife off. These things are never just one person or the other. I can speak in my more assertive more aggressive mode with lots of people (like my friends for example ) and they don't take exception to this at all since this is how they speak in their own version of it. It's all good and this is not a trigger or offensive to them.
Now put me in front of someone who has authority issues and watch what happens!! lol That would be my wife...as I have come to find this out the hard way. lol What she reminds me of sometimes....is when I was back doing security at rock concerts. If you want to find a bunch of people who have problems with authority.....I can't think of a better place to find them! lol The stories I could tell....but I'm thinking, this would not be the appropriate place to tell them:)
J
C....I'm Coming Back to You Here....
Submitted by kellyj on
because, as we have both agreed...there are some real similarities we are both experiencing with two different women...who seem to share this same dynamic which has a similar effect on the two of us. I really think this is true. Every time you post something like this...it just keeps reconfirming this. And since, I'm pretty sure my wife doesn't have ADHD...and your's does....I have to conclude the these similarities are coming from something different than just the ADHD alone. From my perspective (as the one who has ADHD)...I have a pretty strong feeling that this is true. I really can tell now for myself....if something is ADHD related...and if something is not. For those of us who have ADHD...I really think this is just the first step you need to take in learning how to do this better and differentiating these things. I said this before...but I don't think it's all that important or even that useful to those who don't have it...unless that person is just completely in denial and has no ability to do this what so ever. I think saying this....is saying the same thing that I'm having to do with my wife now. I'd really rather not...and to the point...I really shouldn't have to either...but should....would , could have....is kind of irrelevant as you have intimated this yourself. Me too!! lol
So for no other reason than to share my experience with this situation with you.....I have drawn some conclusions myself in how to look at this for my wife. I actually have a book (some where? lol ) that I read on this very thing: Persecutor, Victim, Rescuer phenomenon...and I wanted to come back here to actually share how I'm understanding this and how I'm trying to approach it. This goes right back to the discussion that Delphine NowOrNever and I were having about confronting someone who Gaslights and what to do about it....but I don't think this is any different in that respect and I can apply my same thinking about that discussion to this very topic as well.
As I see it and understand it? What is happening here....is actually a physical manifestation of what is actually going inside us but specific to this problem....is getting physically manifested or projected on to you and others by our wife's. As it is....it is not specific or personal to us by any means. I think what becomes personal...is the projection itself since it is directed at us...but has nothing to do with us?
When I'm saying it has nothing to do with us...I'm not saying we don't have a part to play here. It may be very likely in my case for example....that the way I am or how I approach my wife many times...is the very thing that brings this on or triggers this effect. So to say I don't have anything to do with this or this is all the fault of my wife and she's solely the problem is absolutely not true. She might be the first one to say that she doesn't do this with other people and she has no problems with others...only me and she might be in part...correct from her point of view. She may not end up doing this with others....but then again....other people are living with her and having to deal with the problems it creates for them. On a daily basis....it's really easy to write off other peoples issues entirely and look past them as long as they are just more of annoying feature of a persons personality. And for the most part....you don't need the same things from casual acquaintances or people on the street either? Now add on top of it.....the risk and the intense emotions behind these things when you are in an intimate relationship with another person. This makes the stakes much higher than with friends, co-workers or acquaintances we have especially if these issues are getting in between that intimacy and the needs we have in being married or in an intimate co-habitating daily life experience. Those stakes get raised exponentially over anyone else you will ever come into contact with and since this is true for everyone....we are much more forgiving and lenient with literally everyone else for that reason alone. This is stating the obvious....but it's also very consistently true across the board for most anyone I can think of in my life when trying to apply what I just said?
What my wife is not realizing or what she cannot see when she makes a statement like.."I don't have this problem with anyone else" is:
1) she does have his problem with other people but they're just not saying it to her like I do. Mostly because of what I just said.
2) when other people have run into this issue with her....the feedback is going to be different from them....than it is with me. 'Again...for the very same reason
3) And since this is a projection base phenomenon....the projection my wife puts out (since she is the source ...the source is not the same as saying she's the problem...it's saying she is the symptom and others as well as me ....are the effective response to the symptom here) my wifes denial of this simple fact...is the very thing that perpetuates it since she cannot see or look at the fact...the the symptom is actually coming from her? As she see's things.....she only see's other's responses to her projection....but not the projection itself. That's the denial right there.
4) And since she can't see the projection....she cannot see the victim, persecutor or rescuer from the source within her and therefore...is literally blind to them or even aware they exist in her on a functioning conscious level. On an intuitive or feeling based level yes...but that tells her nothing in how and where to resolve all the unpleasantness and the internal pain and suffering this creates inside her. She can feel it and it feels bad...but she has no idea why she feels the way she does and can't seem to do anything about it. In the meantime...the projection and physical manifestation continues to exist and that gets extended or projected onto us.
5) And since we're mirroring our wives during this entire process....what we are seeing and experiencing is the projection itself and we take that on to mean....it's us.
This is what I was saying about having played each one of these roles myself since the people who have done this before in my life...have put me into that role. That means C.....you might be a rescuer by nature yourself (in you)...but that's going to come out more and more pronouncedly by having that projection foisted onto you. It also possible....that you were not this way before....but now you are and you think this is all about you but it's not. It's the effect this has on you as to why you think this since this is all very deceptive and confusing until you can stand back and see it for what it is.
6) For us on the other side of it....this is a role we play if we are not like this already. To a certain degree...we all share these things in common....what not everyone shares in common...is the fact that these internal characters are not integrated and communicating with each internally which is the very reason this phenomenon exists. It's the imbalance that this creates....that not everyone else who is not like this does not share in common with our wives.
More likely however...once this effect has gone on long enough....we(you) are sharing this imbalance with them because that is the effect itself that this has on you and why it doesn't feel good when before...this imbalance didn't exist?
7) And for the very reason I already said....this happens because we are in close proximity and contact with our spouse on a daily basis in a very intimate way and never get a break or relief from this effect and eventually....we lose sight of how we were...compared to how we are now and think this is now....all about us. It's contagious or infectious in other words. Toxic could also be used to describe this.
8) But that's not personal to us or with intention on their part. From the person who is this way....it doesn't feel good to them either and they would rather not have this thing they have no control over going on inside them. More likely...they like it even less than we do and are even more distraught from the effect this has on them....than how this is affecting us all things considered. I can verify this myself from my past yet this is no longer the case with me now.
The reason I can say all of this with so much assurance...is I've gone through the process of differentiating this all and learning how to understand what is going on inside me and recognize these same things in me with a conscious awareness of them. In other words....I can see it...where before...I could not. Seeing it....IS the ability to have a conscious awareness of what is going on inside me which allows me to know what I feel and why I'm feeling anything which also gives me the ability to know what I need to do about it...and then learning how to use the tools that give me the ability to have control over my emotions and feelings regardless of what they are. It allows me to know what I need to do at any given time(moment) and how to control my emotions from which..... I can simply write off what I need to when I can see it's not making any sense to what is really happening on the outside of me. In other words....I am no longer reacting to how I feel. I'm thinking my way through on a cognitive level...instead of thinking feeling my way through everything and using emotional thinking base solely on how I feel.
When ever we do this....we're just reacting and we have no control over what we do. In that case....we are ruled by our feelings and emotions and have no other means than to just follow them blindly....literally, everywhere we go. No control. No ability to stop reacting. No ability to think rationally and use critical thinking and logic instead to make good decisions and govern our behavior that is actually base on reality and not just what we feel. Reality includes...our environment we live in and other people in it.
Don't quote me on this...but this internal disconnect of these 3 characters that live inside all of us that are not communicating with each other the way they should...is the very cause of this problem and where this splitting effect comes from. Instead of these three characters being unified together as part of the whole and working together in an integrated way. They are not working together...not co-operating together...and are in constant turmoil and conflict together since they are completely unaware of the other two's existence. They are in essence...operating unilaterally and independently as if the others ones do not exist instead of working jointly in a cooperative way.
What I said already....what we see is the physical manifestation of this disconnect inside other people when we sit on the opposite side of the table across from someone experiencing this problem and it's coming out as a form of projection. You can say this in different ways I think ie;.....too many cooks in the kitchen? Left hand has no idea what the right hand is doing? etc...etc...etc....
So C....for me personally. I can see these characters inside me. I know who they are, how they think, and they way they talk. I can recognize them well enough..to know of their existence even if I can't always see them and have my moments where I miss my cue to do something I should. But the missing my cue or not seeing them 100% of the time....is just a function of learning better to be aware of them and that takes practice. It doesn't mean I can't see them or am aware of them even if I'm not perfect all of the time. What I am very aware of when that happens however....is the feeling I have when they are not communicating well together and my feelings and emotions are doing more of the talking...than my conscious thoughts are. I recognize this fact....when my thoughts include these things when before...they did not. That much....I know for sure even if I'm not properly identifying exactly why I feel the way I do about anything. Any time, I start let my feelings do the talking and dictating to me...I know I've got to stop and consider that I'm not making good solid decisions right at the moment and my thinking is relying on my emotions and feelings rather than the rational, logical side of my conscious decision making process. If that's the case....I need to stop and consider things longer...before I rush into anything and give some time to think about it for a while.
And since I am so aware of all of this now...it makes it pretty easy to see what is happening with my wife when I see her reacting emotionally and not using her head to make good decisions. That is one of the side benefits in going through the process of learning how to do this.
But even as I'm saying this....I assuming that everyone has to do this. If these 3 internal characters and fully communicating and connected up inside a person.....that person would not have the need to stop and do this in my thinking. They could flow from one situation to the next seamlessly and not have to think about it at all. A person like this could fully trust their emotions and feelings at all times and know that they are telling them the right thing and never have to think twice about anything along these lines.
I can't know this for sure....but I'm thinking no one is quite in that state of not having to do this ever and that just boils down to the matter of degree between one person and the next. We all exist somewhere...on that sliding scale....at the same time...we're all on the same scale no matter who you are? This is the part...that no one can really know for another person...but unless they can give you some way to tell you how they feel and why....it doesn't give you much to go off of other than to just stand back and observe and do your best not to make assumptions and not to judge yourself. That's really all you can do I think?
But this comes full circle to this dilemma and what to do about. If what is missing in my wife for example...is this connection and the cross talk of these 3 characters inside her....at any given moment....she is likely to be one or the other or the other....with no awareness of this what so ever?
So in the example of her rescuer coming to the aid of her brother (the victim)....she's compelled to rescue her brother even when it's not called for or needed based on how she felt when I attempted to give the two of them my Captains orientation with them.
The rescuer...heard an authority....trying to tell the two of them what to do and she immediately took on the role and tried to stop me. That is...she was rescuing her brother at first.
The second I didn't do exactly what the rescuer wanted and tried to pursue the topic....now the "persecutor or protector" steps in and takes over with that obstinate, adversarial and defiant role that immediately says "you're not the boss of me!! You can't tell me what to do!!"
And then finally...because I would not stop of tried a different approach after she effectively cut me off at the knees.....both her and her brother are now the victims of this offensive authority figure who tried to tell them both what to do.
"How RUDE!!! C'mon...lets get away from this AUTHORITY figure...you can't trust them anyway!! " (suspicion) As she and her brother went to the back of the boat and isolated themselves from me...this horrible authority figure.
As she said to her friend quote unquote "it's always something with him" (shunning) Sheesh...let's get away from this rude authority person!!
So ...here's the deal C. You could put this back on me anyway you might choose and I would agree with you. Clearly....what I was doing was not working and as she said it later.....it was how I was coming across. Okay...I can buy that I don't always come across well or do things as I should and I won't argue the fact that finding better ways to do this would only be in my best interest. But the fact that what I just explained...has nothing to do with me. If you trust that I'm not trying to put this all back to my wife here and trust that I am being equalitarian here...I can tell you....I've approached or broached things with my wife under countless situations in countless different ways...and it still ends up the same no matter which approach I use. It's this phenomenon that's constant and never changing....not me in this case. And to the point...it doesn't matter which way I come across...one of these 3 characters is going to step in and come forward any time I make the slightest movement, say the wrong word, or somehow trigger this these 3 characters into action and they will shift back and forth and side to side and you will always being bumping up against one of them anytime you try and tell my wife to do anything. It's literally the act...of telling her what to do no matter how you do it unless it is done in such a way....that you are telling her something....without telling her anything.
And this then becomes....that mixed message...incoherent...and completely round about indirect way of telling her anything...which is the very source for the poor communication and the lack of clarity that I witness between her brother and herself and with me when I have no idea what she is trying to say. The hidden message within the message spoken in code that only the two of them understand and know somehow? Either by intention...or understanding what it is that is considered acceptable or not acceptable in saying anything. It's a completely emotionally dishonest and closed off way of communicating but...it's the only language that my wife will accept in trying to tell her something that is not considered Rude or Offensive.
In essence....your talking to 3 people at once and all three are trying to talk together in a completely disjointed and incoherent way since each has an agenda and purpose that is different from each other.
And just to share where my T and I left off on my last visit with him and we were discussing this and we ran out of time....my T left me with a riddle...that I'm still considering since he said he really wanted to continue this but wanted to give me something to think about. I'm saying that as I heard him....he needed to hear a little more from my side than we had time for and wanted to dig a little deeper into this himself to a certain degree but he did narrow it down to this one question...
"What's the currency that needs to be used here...in these exchanges I have with my wife? Barring the obvious one...Love. I think there is more than one answer here since there are more characters involved than just one as well?
As I pause and think about this....each character: Persecutor, Rescuer and Victim.....each have a different currency depending on which one you are seeing in the moment. Love is great in the overall sense....but it doesn't necessarily give you the specific currency to use for a specific moment especially if you are dealing with logistical matters and Love and emotions are not coming into play.
As I'm thinking about this...the guy at the filling station is going to fill you tank with gas whether you Love him or not as long as you give him the cash to pay for it?
Any thoughts or input into this C? Or for that matter... anyone else who might read this and wants to throw their two bits in here too. I don't think there is any wrong answer here or just one way to go about this. I'm still trying to figure this out myself but one simple answer like Love is not really specific enough to deal with this effectively. I think there is a lot more to it than that if you are going to really come to terms with this successfully in an on going basis. The thing that I just can't accept entirely....is that there is not a way to do this and do this well for all concerned. I've tried everything I can think of from many different approaches but that doesn't mean anything. All that says is I've tried what I know and that's pretty irrelevant at this point. There just has to be a way around this but I'm still working on it because I know there is a way. I'm sure of it. There has to be.
All thoughts are welcome in pertaining to this question of..... "what currency is needed here?" And then possibly....how to apply it? Thanks
J
Rudeness in the eye of beholder
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Hi, J, I just did a fast read of your post. As always, you nail a lot. I had a long post I was working on to give you but lost it...sometimes I am not very nimble with the formatting on this site. So very briefly what that was about which I lost: you and C have some similarities in your spouses that provide you both material for discussion . You and I, J, as you picked up awhile ago, have some similarities in who we grew up with, for parents, and how we were treated as kids. Your remarks about not having a voice, literally not a loud one but also the habit of speaking up, in some situations.....and then acquiring a way of making strong statements and getting things done with your voice later in life but having no mid range between quiet or silence; and full throttle (you said, using an edge) is vey, very familiar. Very. So I went on into that. I've been working on getting a midrange of expressiveness for some social situations for awhile. Anyway life has gone on and the topics are moving forward, so I won't repeat all that that I lost. I can see your wife having her reactions (because of her own triggers from past life) to whatever your full on voice and wording is.
But, to connect with what you're writing now, it's a complicated deal living under one roof with someone and there's also the behavior of labeling someone else's speech or comportment as rude, in order to make it stop, but in fact people looking at the scene from the outside wouldn't call the tone of voice, or wording, or physical behavior rude. I can't tell from what you wrote, of course, what your "tone" was when you spoke on the boat, so I'm not wanting to say that your wife was labeling your tone rude as a way to get you to be like C has been encouraged to be, quiet, pretty inert, and in the background. I just wanted to say that this labeling someone's voice or speech can be a ploy to stop it. Women in the workplace get called "hysterical" or "complaining" or "off topic" or "you don't make sense" in meetings occasionally by men who just want to shut their voice down. It's the same ploy when it's played. Label the voice or the content of what's being spoken to silence it. Consider that, and you of course will know because you're in an ongoing relation with your wife. People do learn to pick up the nuances and to recognize that it's happening, if it happens that way over and over again.
But if (if) something like that is a regular move: that your tone of voice, your intention behind your speech or the content of what you say, in certain kinds of interactions is being labeled negatively and you KNOW what your intention was and KNOW what you said, even if you can't hear what your tone (the famous "tone") sounds like with the ears of other listeners, I recommend that you don't doubt yourself. You wouldn't but then, I just read a post of yours recently that described quite a trajectory of learning how to speak up, appropriately to the situation and effectively, in your earlier life.
There very likely is a piece or two of this that does have to do with ADHD, but I don't think what I'm going to say was directly generated by ADHD, likely it came out of my husband's unhappy times in his earlier life, particularly one relation with one parent when he was a child, and another longstanding relation he was in, before me: I had to me a very sad period in my early marriage in which break out accusation would come my way from my husband. It was so sad to go through because he and I love each other. There's no question of that, there's never been. But I'd get really mean labels launched at my words, and he would label my attitudes (like your wife labeled your attitude rude). It was a very sorrowful time. He would not relinquish his claims. I couldn't understand why he would want to be around me if he thought those things of me. Et cetera. I won't give all the details. There is an issue at times with any couple, and often enough with a couple in which ADHD is in the mix, that thinking he/she said that, but that was never said ....nor intended can crop up.
Here's the thing. You're considering how you came across. That's a good faith and sincere thing to do. It's that middle ground of learning how to communicate and interact socially, that is somewhere between complete silence and being full on, full throttle. But my feeling is, beyond having patience, watching the interaction when it happens again, asking questions, and if there's avoidance or denial, taking that in account, but listening non defensively to what your wife says about how you come across, and then giving what she says serious thought, and if she's up to it, experimenting with her on saying it differently....here's the heart of it, all you can do, if you know what you said that was labeled rude (hysterical, incoherent, whatever), was not intended to be rude, was not your "rude voice", and was in context that's getting conveniently eliminated (like the boat was going to crash on rocks), stand confident in yourself. It's the only way forward if people near enough to you emotionally to get under your skin are, in fact, trying to silence you or make you walk on eggshells. Stand on your center, operate from your dojo mat, not theirs. You don't have to call them out or make them confess to trying to shut you down. I don't have to make an Issue out of it if I'm speaking in ordinary order in a meeting and somebody (who doesn't know me) tries to raise his voice and interrupt me repeatedly, in order to silence me. The job is not to fix the other person. That's a codependent fool's errand anyway, I do very much believe.
The job is to be who you are. Trust your own intentions and your knowledge of what words you did use. You and I due to our very similar situation of being shut down, in our home of origin, have had to learn slowly that it's all right to speak up, it's all right. You've done the work. If you get labeled "rude" and you had zero intention of rudeness and the content of your words wasn't rude, don't go trying to fix anything. Or defend yourself. I'm learning this late in life. If I did all right, I have no need to defend myself to anyone. And the key is, don't fall into the temptation to walk on eggshells because someone named something that you know you have to work on. Just tell the truth, once, and go on. No spasm of introspection about being imperfect. We all are, we all have work to do to be better people.
With my husband in these fortunately infrequent, but when they happend very painful and upsetting situations in which he'd lock onto something, tell me my attitude stunk often insist that I had said something nasty when I didn't utter those words, and insist and insist... : ) are you ADHD folk strong minded? I decided the hard thing still for me, coming out of that background of abuse, I wasn't going to defend myself, if I had nothing to apologize for or defend. It meant that I didn't get into a round and round you did-no I didn't. We did a few of those, but it just made us that much more unhappy, because he wouldn't relinquish telling me that I had been rude, mean, nasty, meant him ill. Like a simpleton, but also still with high defenses when something was done to me that was sudden and felt like an unannounced attack, I thought that it would help the situation if I explained my attitude, retold the words that I actually did use...Oh, that was pouring oil on the fire and I just heard him insist on the labels he had for me in his head. There are some mysteries in these events, but he clearly, clearly was trying to shut some thing down, it was some kind of assault as a means of defending himself from something that was...in his mind. I felt like a complete rag doll, suddenly being yanked and tossed around. I can guarantee you that explaining the fact of what I said and of my intentions was the 100% wrong thing to do, it never made anything better....because it worked in his mind that I was gaslighting him! There was no way to fight it, J, no way. The labels, to try to get me to do ...what???....not do what??? Do what??? still were there, still stung and still made me cry.
The only way forward was not to engage in the dynamic. I wasn't going to give up my voice, and I wasn't going to walk on eggshells. Nor did I have to participate in his conflict within his head. I decided to say it once, only once, what I had said and what I was thinking. I decided to use my voice to tell him that I would not participate in a did/didn't argument. I told him that if necessary, I would leave the room. When it's a hamster wheel rolling, J, that's not the time to try to help one's spouse get out of their hamster wheel. That's what therapists are for. You and I can't be both therapists and spouses. For one thing we're not trained and clinically experienced, no matter what we've read or thought. For another thing, therapist, or spiritual adviser, is another role than spouse. It was a waste of time for me to go into the codependent triangle and be Helper, trying to relieve my husband's mind that his accusations of me were not true, I wasn't a nasty person. That's Mrs. Fixit. We can't do that to our spouses. We aren't gods. And we're not trained, and going in there as Helper when someone is in a Persecutor hamster wheel is just becoming cannon fodder for the hamster wheel whirl.
I still don't know what's in my husband's head about me. He and I talk well, and often, and we're at work on doing a good relation. But you should have HEARD the accusations. Has he come to other conclusions yet? Some of it is a mystery and nobody can look inside someone else's head. What I do know is that it worked....for me....not to reflex back into self analysis and self scrutiny, trying to fix something in me, to fix the relation between him and me, so that I wouldnt hear any more painful accusations (do you hear that control freaky codependency I would have been doing if I had?) It worked not to pour my energy and my heart in to trying to make him see that I was not that bitch. It worked to ask myself, since I've been living with myself for awhile, Now, WERE you being a jerk just then, DID you mean to harm him, DID you use a "rude tone", DID you say something nasty? If in the light of truth an honesty, I said no to all that, I decided no harassing myself for what I didn't do that had been labeled as mean. Keep it together, go on, and put your mind on something else.
...I think we had a little watershed as well, when one time my husband the next day was insisting and insisting that I had meant him harm the previous evening and I said, "Look, Mr. Now, I've lived with myself for quite awhile, and I am very familiar with my interior landscape and my feelings. I KNOW when I'm being a shit, because it FEELS DIFFERENT IN THERE, when I'm being a shit, when I'm being sulky, when I'm just being an ahole." I don't know why that had an impact on him, but for reasons that are a mystery to me, he acknowledged that that was true, it feels crappy inside when someone is being a jerk to someone else. Who'd a thunk, but I have the impression that from then on, he had a way of believing that I could know what my attitude was as I was speaking. Who'd a thunk.
Probably more than anything my decision to stay off his hamster wheel, not get pissed at him for his accusations, just go on with my business has been a help. We haven't had one of these for a long time. I hold out hope that over time he's learned to trust me more than he did when these things were cropping up. My job is to tell the truth, act in trustworthy ways, and go on. My staying off hamster wheels is my version of what C is doing, not getting swept up in what he can't change through being a Helper
And to wind down here. You're so right that love is the great frame of relation but that it's not specific enough to deal with particular kinds of interactions. I'll save it for another time, maybe, but I think love as the bandaid of all things is over rated.
Here's maybe something that's more technique related: I've read, regarding relationships, that it can be effective only to reinforce the good. Never to reinforce the dysfunctional. That's a tall order for ordinary people, but I think it's worth tackling.
Wishing you well. As always
Now
Wup, edited to add, and I won't edit more: I missed a big one that's in my package of what I try to do, which is if, in the light of truth, I in fact had a condescending attitude inside, or was in the moment using my words to vent frustration or irritation, or was in stinker mode, and my husband says I'm messing with him or intending him harm, it is important for me to apologize, specifying exactly what I'm apologizing for, do it as fast as possible and as clearly as possible, with a statement of what I decide that I need to emend. And then try to do it. I think real apologies, not apologies as ploys, are important, when someone sees that they've screwed up someting with their partner.
From What We Both Share In Common...
Submitted by kellyj on
I can imagine a few things. So I'll just assume here and work from those assumptions. I get the funny feeling....that I won't offend you or you will think I'm being presumptuous:)
These more extreme moments I've found...are the best moments to pay attention to. The are the most telling since they really are the most pointed. ouch!! lol But if I can get past the "ouch" part and not just move on by them and forget about them entirely...they really are a great source to understand things later....even if that one moment was more like something I'd like to forget about. lol That's another way of saying that I'm not ruminating endlessly over them like I did in the past....but I'm using those times to highlight and understand exactly what happened? Understanding what happened....is not the same as resolving them but I've found that's enough...to stop the ruminating which allows me to move forward. I can't speak for everyone with ADHD...but as you mentioned....there is a component in there that is directly related to the inability to filter all the info coming in which is the thing that you really can't do anything about. I've got to put it somewhere in that filing cabinet upstairs or the whole thing becomes a giant paper jam explosion! That I think...is related to the organizational challenges that ADHD present you. What you see....is what's happening up stairs in our heads!! lol And sometimes...it's overwhelming the amount of thought and things I have going on up there all at the same time. So having a mental filing cabinet...is a good place to stuff those things for the time being and come back later if I need to since the second part of this which I'm not sure if this is ADHD or not? If this freaking memory I have that simply won't go away!! I'm kidding of course.....I feel very fortunate for having a good memory and that's something that has been there as long as I can remember. It can be a curse at times....with things you don't want to remember and that's where that mental filing cabinet comes into play. I can't not remember things...so at least...they will sit there until a time when I've got a way to process it later. It's seems that epiphanies come at me on a daily basis sometimes and there's just no way of stopping them.lol I don't even like to call them epiphanies any more since that would imply that they are unique and rare. Not so much!! lol
But what you were saying about your H and the labeling and those moments of getting locked in? And then resulting harmful things that he say and then you'd say means things back is oh so familiar. I'm still trying to process everything I learned from this vacation in being with my wife and her brother and just observing everything that happened. Not just this last time...but now taking all those past memories and putting them all together and taking them out of the filing cabinet upstairs and processing it all completely now.
And if I can assume something from what you said....my tendency was never to blame others. My tendency was always to blame myself and take it all on to me and never consider it was the other person ever. In a more general sense....I'm still the same way. Blaming, pointing fingers and labeling....I mostly reserved for myself entirely. Even if I did that to others in my own way....it never was without doing that to myself at the same time. It's exactly where my impatience comes from when I see my wife and her brother doing just the opposite thing which I really cannot understand just simply knowing what I know of myself. Of course it feels bad when you do this. Basically....you're beating yourself up more than your beating anyone else up and mostly don't do that.
That is.....until they've poked that same sore spot so many times....you finally go "you know....just one more time...I'm warning you." And then they do it again! lol That's where I can get into that game on mode. " Like... two can play at that game you know???" These are the moments when I'm not being silent either. lol
What is true for me mostly as a rule....I don't hold grudges or hold on to things for a long time and can move past them without too much problem in general. I blame myself first and then the other person if at all. And I get over pain and hurt rather quickly and don't have a short fuse. That goes hand in hand with not needing to exact punishment of revenge either. I'm just not vindictive in that way and never have been.
But this is where my own impatience comes into play when I see someone else....doing those very things or not getting over things and feeling the need to punish or....poke. This is hard one for me to resolve when I clearly see this is what is happening. Like who are you trying to kid here....I know what you are doing!!! Just because I'm not vindictive....doesn't mean I don't feel like it sometimes. The difference is....I don't carry it out into action. The same as feeling hurt or pain. I feel pain alright....I just don't feel the need to share that with everyone else as much as possible!! lol( thinking my wife here...making sure) And so it goes with everything else. Just because I'm not showing it...doesn't mean I don't feel it and have the need to react to it overtly. But if I can get past my own impatience with people who I see who are not doing this....I have to consider why I am this way and that goes right back to learning to do this...because you have to in order to survive. As I see this now....it's actually a positive skill learned from a negative experience and it's not that you are just born this way. This is something you learn through a great deal of temperance despite what you actually feel like.
As I watched my brother in law and my wife together....this is the very thing that they both share....the inability not to contain themselves (or contain it what ever IT is ) and a need to expel that all in the moment where ever they go and me silently going...."yeah...so what. Get over it. Join the rest of the world!!"
So when my wife is poking me...and keeps poking....this isn't nagging. This is just her poking any time I do something that makes her uncomfortable or hurts. Even the tiniest of things. And after enough of those little vindictive pokes...is when I go..."Not one more time (pause)".....and then within a few minutes....she'll do it again!! lol Like as if....I am completely unaware of what she's doing and somehow she thinks she can get away with it and I have no idea what is going on??? I know exactly what's going on...it's why I say what I say and look at with that look that says..."Don't do it." Which makes her only do it more!! LOL And that never stops:)
The thing is.....she does it to me....she does it to her own brother....and her brother does it right back. The only person who is not doing it...is me and I'm looking at the two of them going..."get a room...rather...get a dojo mat you two...sheesh!!" And in that I see this...it's tied directly to immediate gratification ( as it appears to me?) which they both have issues there as well. It is....very child like in appearance even though they are doing it in a more adult way. But they aren't fooling me for a minute!! lol This is where my patience starts to wear really thin. If you can imagine? lol
It really is like little kids at times who keep poking and pulling at their mother for attention. Like when a child is sitting in the room quietly and then the phone rings and their mother picks up the phone and now the kid starts hanging on their mothers leg going..."I neeed...I neeeed." And then when the mother doesn't pay attention to them...they start ramping up that same behavior until they are throwing things and pulling on the their mother and (intentionally and purposely) making noise just to get their mom off the phone because the attention is going else where.
I don't have kids...but I've seem this many times with the kids in my own family. The interesting thing when you don't have to live with this is ( and don't have kids yourself)...you can be rather objective and just watch it happen and just watch how they do this without being directly affected or irritated by it. When you're not the one on the phone having this happen to you....it's easier to watch how they do this and see them clearly.
This is pay back...that's all it is!! The kid didn't even want their mothers attention until they can't have it. It's exactly what it is.
I remember my one nephew one time when I was at my sister house and we were going through some things together. His little brother (my other nephew) was in a car seat and my sister was carrying him around with her. When I asked why she was doing this..she said if she left in alone for even just a second and wasn't watching...my other nephew would start attacking him because he was jealous of the attention his new little brother was getting. I think my oldest nephew was about 2 1/2 or 3 at the time. Sure enough...as my sister was digging into a box to find something in it....I surreptitiously watched my Nephew...rather slyly....walk over and picked up this big plastic hammer he was playing with and started hitting the ground like he was playing some kind of game with it. As my sister had her back to him and he didn't know I was watching him...he started hitting the ground but each with each hit....the hits started moving.... hit by hit in the direction of his brother in the car seat which at the time...was on the ground sitting behind my sister. Without missing a beat....he just kept hitting the ground repeatedly and moving over until he conked his little brother right on the head. And of course...his little brother (who was a matter of months old at the time) started crying and I was trying my best not to pee myself. It was the funniest damn thing I had ever seen from my perspective. Not the hitting his little brother on the head part....but the way he went about doing it..... like as if....no one will ever figure this one out as long as it just looks like it I was playing the game of ...hit the ground with the hammer and ....oops...my little brother just happened to be right where I needed to hit next?? I'm sorry...i just didn't see him there?? LOL
This is exactly what it looks like to me when my wife pokes me and then tries to pretend or make it about me as the reason why? There is no way I can't see it...and it's damn near just as obvious to me.LOL
So with that in mind.....I'm pretty sure this is what I'm seeing most of the time and I don't take that on to myself of give her reasoning for these things all that much credence. She has every legitimate right to not like the things that my ADHD presents to her....what I have a hard time looking past....is getting hit on the head with a plastic hammer repeatedly even after I've told her to stop!! Or is she says it's because I was rude. lol
So the labels like Rudeness or even the pain that I see her reacting to...is difficult for me not to see it exactly the same way. Even if pain is relative to each person to a certain extent. You aren't going to convince me that pain...in itself...is the reason someone acts in this way. What it appears to me as....exactly what I just described with my Nephew. Pay back....for any pain at all and an inability to tolerate pain of any kind...and making an excessively big deal about it and making sure every knows....not to do anything that might hurt me AT ALL!!
It's not about the pain,the offense or even that you've done something that created it.....it's the need to retaliate in a more vindictive on going way...that telling everyone....don't do anything to make me upset...or I'm going to get you!!
As my T said in our last meeting together...."The best defense...is a good offense." Directly related to my wife as he said it. And as I see it at times....it's not just an adversarial relationship with me...it's an adversarial relationship with the world and an inability to process someone doing anything that you don't like...and then an overwhelming need to make them pay. Right then....in the moment. And if not.....when ever I get the chance.
I don't care what my wife says to the contrary.....I see this....and cannot not see this....and that's the part I have the most difficultly seeing outside of since it's so petty and really.....just being a poor sport....or a poor loser...either way you want to say it. She's definitely not what I would call...a team player in that respect and I walk in the door being a team player where ever I go. That's a learned behavior....no one starts out this way including me. I have a hard time being patient when I see this aspect in others at times even though I can see how I got there and it wasn't easy for sure. I took my lumps in countless ways and learned to live with th pain anyway and keep on moving forward regardless. It seems one of those things...I have yet to have a place in my filing cabinet for? lol
J
Small correction, friend
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
Good post. Yes it's a big issue if getting digs at you keeps happening.
You wrote: And then resulting harmful things that he say and then you'd say means things back is oh so familiar.
That wasnt what I said.
I said that defending myself didnt resolve anything when I was in the process being accused.
Oops.....I Stand Corrected:)
Submitted by kellyj on
But it is what I do at times and mainly those are the times when we fight. And thinking a little deeper about this...."what"...not who, is really doing the fighting are our own personal sensitivities and weakness's. As it appears to me many times, when I regret doing something.....I find that the things I am the worst at doing...are my weakest areas. Those are the very things that also get me into trouble. But if I look at those times....it's not that I regret doing what ever it is.....it's I regret not having done it better or differently. This is really the truth more often that not. From my own weakness's (regardless of why they're there in the first place)....not doing things better my myself.....are the very reasons I find myself in a situation I'd rather not be in. Either one that is uncomfortable or that I don't like which comes down to not being very good at something or not being fully prepared to deal with it.( or predicting it ahead of time and steering clear or trouble before it happens )
Remembering the story of the Emperors 3 sons....and the third son .....who didn't open the door in the first place to have to avoid the pillow above the door? He didn't have to defend against something that never happened in the first place...... by simply not opening the door? And look at the conservation of energy in his ...non-action?
For me....I do this part pretty well. This is my strength...for the most part. My weakness...is in defending myself. The reason for this simple....I was not allowed to and never learned to do it well. Actually....I was prevented from doing it even if I tried more accurately...and even if I did....it did no good at resolving the problem.
And the problem existed because of how this was done. My father in this case....he was not bad......he was wrong. His intentions even if self serving.....were from a good place. There were many benefits for all good reasons that I learned from him. But for everything I learned or was positive....I also had to pay a price for and was equally negative. Was he morally wrong and this was bad for me? I just flipped those terms to their opposites on purpose.
It really should read.....how it was done was morally bad.....and wrong for me. This is probably more accurate and closer to the truth right there. Do you see how easily things can be misconstrued by simply the words being used?
I wanted to respond to something Delphine said to you in her comment about "Tough Love". Melissa had commented with her opinion about this idea quite some time ago when responding to Liz ....and referring to this very thing saying this is how she was trying to approach ADDH9er in dealing with him at the time. I remember this and it stuck with me and didn't need to look this up again.
Taking what she said...and synthesizing it myself in how I feel about this is in agreement with she said on a fundamental level. In the context of "Tough Love"....I feel the approach is wrong. It's a good idea....but applying it in the wrong way or in the wrong context. It's mainly a reference or technique used in raising children...specifically....out of control or potentially delinquent ones. I could go a step further and say there is a reason why those children might be that way in the first place.....but it could be due the parents failures...or it could be something else? Either way....it's a door...better left unopened for that reason alone. It's the wrong door to use in this case IMHO and I agree with Melissa for the same reason. It's dangerously close to thinking in terms of raising a child and that's stepping right into the parent child dynamic. Even if you know that it's not....the dynamic itself doesn't know that. The dynamic..will speak for itself.
I can apply that to my wife as well. These are all of her weakness's not her strengths....even though, it might feel like she is trying to bull -doze her way through by force or by trying to cut you down, cut you off at the knees, or being disrespectful....it's only a misguided method she adopted out of a need to defend herself and she's been defending herself her entire life against these "things" that are standing in her way.
What's really standing in her way.....is her own weakness's and failures to do something about it her self. She spends so much time defending, complaining and pointing out what's wrong....this has become a personal crusade she's on and fighting a battle that in some ways....has already been won. The battle is over....but she's still fighting it anyway. She feels compelled to open those doors anyway to tell everyone that "I have been wronged!!"
Yet in some ways.....there is that kernel of truth that keeps the battle going which is the very thing that will never make that battle truly ever stop since it just keeps regenerating itself...by the very person (or people) who have been wronged. It has been clearly said by many leaders in the African American community....that this kind of thinking (with their community) is the very thing that keeps them from advancing since....the battle being fought today.....is not what it was. For those who keep fighting a fight that is no longer there for the most part....and for those who oppose them on the other side...(the few and far between and becoming fewer with each new generation) this fixation and focus on the remnants and the few on the other side is the very thing holding the majority from keeping step and moving in the plosive direction that it appears to be moving?
For the sake of argument....I don't think anyone can make the argument that human rights or racial prejudice is moving backwards from where things were only 50 years ago? Look who's the President of the US currently? On a personal note....I cannot remember being prouder of being a US citizen...than when an African American man was elected President of this country. For that reason alone regardless of what he's done either right or wrong since that time which is completely irrelevant to this fact.
And I can make the same argument about woman rights and a women's place in our society now for the very same reason. In terms of weakness.....women aren't going to win in the dead lifting competition in the Olympics over a man probably ever. But were talking about the top 10% of all men and women. The fastest time that I ever personally recorded in swimming....which put me in 12th place in our high school state competition....would have earned me 1rst place as a girl/woman in the very same meet by only 1/10th of a second which means the best woman in my event....was only a few seconds behind the best man doing exactly the same thing. A few seconds difference only. That means...if you were there watching the two race each other side by side....the man would have been roughly 6ft further ahead at the end of 100yards traveled overall. That's 2 yards behind in a 100yard race? How much stronger does that account for in physical strength?
In my mind....this man woman issue is more about winning or being first....than it by simply accepting the fact that 2 yards distance becomes some insurmountable difference and that men always win over women under the same circumstances. The fact is....men are physically....a little stronger and that's really the truth. That means....women....should physically be able to do everything that a man can do physically with an expectation of 2% +/- at the very top end only. What that says for the rest of us...the other 90%. Is that there are going to be countless numbers of woman....who are actually stronger than men physically. That's the truth of reality in a physical sense and that already exists. There is no fighting or battling over the truth as it really is here?
So what's this fight all about?(now?) Is there some truth in the discrepancies and injustice of woman...primarily in the past....or is there this battle going on for who's better, best, 1rst and or 2nd? If there are woman out there who feel the need to keep fighting the battle over 1srt and 2nd when it comes to physical strength....this is a losers game for any woman trying to win this battle since this battle isn't with men...it's the denial that the fight is with mother nature and you will never win that fight ever. It's just how we were all made and there's nothing we can do about that?
And in the same way....I can apply ADHD here to this mix. In the same way....there are inherent weakness's or in abilities to do things as well as others....but only within a matter of degree there as well? If those of us keep denying that we are weaker in some ways because of it....we will be trying to fight that same kind of battle forever and will never win in trying to fight or deny this fact.
But on the other side these issues....whether your white, a man, or a man with ADHD.....what is there to defend against if someone is trying to fight these battles with you personally? In essence....you've done nothing wrong but be a man who is not black....but yet....you are already condemned before you even open the door? If you cannot compete with the top 10% of everyone.....this somehow makes you weak and that's a bad thing. Bad dog!! lol
I think you are absolutely right NON.....as you can tell by what I just said.....I have no need to be first. I'm not trying to win with my wife even if she keeps fighting this futile battle she's in trying to be 1rst or proving she's not weaker than I am out of fear that if somehow...she stops fighting this battle....all these past villains in her life will come out the wood work and find her and take advantage of her. Ironically...the worst one of all was her own mother who was a woman. As it was with me....her mother wasn't bad....she was just wrong. I can say the same thing about myself in many situations where I have made mistakes or done things I'm not proud of.....but I'm not bad for doing it. I was just wrong at the time.
And being wrong....is not a crime and doesn't deserve to be punished. The only people who deserve to be punished....are bad ones. I think the only bad people out there....are the ones who hurt others knowingly for their own gain and they know exactly what they are doing and know the difference between right and wrong. Ignorance of the law is not excuse in the eyes of the law.....but being ignorant and not knowing that difference in other ways is not a crime either when it comes to two people that are doing things that might hurt the other without intention and because they don't know any better?
And I agree with you completely on one thing.....admitting your wrong and saying your sorry (by acknowledging or identifying specifically) when you've made a mistake and what you did that was wrong (and have wronged someone) is not admitting your bad....it's actually a show of Love and respect for the other person.
As my T said to me once and I will always keep this one in mind because it's so true..."There are no expirations dates for apologies." Even when you did something out of ignorance and didn't realize where you went wrong.....there is no reason why you can't come back much later when you see it....and say you are sorry when you see it and apologize for your mistake.
As I see it....that's a sign of strength and is not weak if you know you've done something wrong and you admit it. Saying your sorry constantly as a way to placate the other person or situation or it's done from being coerced into as demanded or dictated by the other person as a show of submission or is a defensive maneuver is a door you shouldn't open in the first place. No way Jose on those possibilities scenarios for sure. Those are all wrong reasons to apologize for anything and in the wrong context of a true apology.
In light of what Delphine said about showing Love.....apologies and admitting you are wrong to someone is probably the sincerest form of Love you can show another person if it's genuine and sincere. That actually opens the door for forgiveness ( for yourself ) instead of forcing it down some ones throat with the idea of "Tough Love" and approaching it from that direction? It may work on one respect for one person.....but who is getting the benefit from that from that approach?
Like I said....
My father in this case....was not bad......he was wrong. His intentions even if self serving.....were from a good place. There were many benefits for all good reasons that I learned from him. But for everything I learned or was positive....I also had to pay a price that was equally negative. Was he morally wrong...and this was bad for me? I just flipped those terms to their opposites on purpose.
It really should read....."how it was done was morally bad.....and wrong for me. " This is more accurate and probably closer to the truth right there.
J
J..It's part of the Why?
Submitted by c ur self on
(But it is what I do at times and mainly those are the times when we fight. And thinking a little deeper about this...."what"...not who, is really doing the fighting are our own personal sensitivities and weakness's. As it appears to me many times, when I regret doing something.....I find that the things I am the worst at doing...are my weakest areas. Those are the very things that also get me into trouble. But if I look at those times....it's not that I regret doing what ever it is.....it's I regret not having done it better or differently. This is really the truth more often that not. From my own weakness's (regardless of why they're there in the first place)....not doing things better my myself.....are the very reasons I find myself in a situation I'd rather not be in. Either one that is uncomfortable or that I don't like which comes down to not being very good at something or not being fully prepared to deal with it.( or predicting it ahead of time and steering clear or trouble before it happens )
I am so with you on this statement....This statement cover's my thoughts in my relationship, and my own life so well.....But, I have to ask myself Why? Why this constant barrage on Self? it's a good thing to learn from life's lessons, but why would one relationship so dominate our minds to such a degree?
It's simple really (see the forest and the trees) the chemical, biological, and nurture that molded the two cohabiting principles was unkind.....We can't pick out things we don't like in each other and change it....Life doesn't work that way....So your statement comes back into play for someone seeking awareness, which gave you the desire to write the statement to begin with..
If my wife and I could swap our Pride and Ego's for Humility....If we could swap self-absorption for concern for others...If we could swap Victim mentality for Thankfulness....If we could swap our blindness of our own reality to awareness of only our own reality....Life in this household would have a different face....
Take some time to rest your mind and be at peace my friend...Enjoy the weekend.....
C
Rest, on the journey. Humility
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
C & J, hi, chiming in on your present topic...meaning what's been written immediately above only. (I have a different take on resignation and subjugation, which I don't equate with what I want to talk about, so I'll not tackle that discussion, which began on down below this one).
So, referring to the immediately above: J, I agree with C's last line, above, hope you can rest your oars a little bit on thinking over the relational topics you've been working through, and catch a bit of a break from it. R&R between spells of thought about it. Hope you do. Just a break. Back to it later. You're making sense and you're seeing a lot of parts to a lot of things.
C to you in particular, since you're speaking out of Christian life goals ), in part of what you wrote above, using Christian lingo witih particular Christian meanings:
I have to ask myself Why? Why this constant barrage on Self? it's a good thing to learn from life's lessons, but why would one relationship so dominate our minds to such a degree?
You and I have had an exchange, within our religious tradition, about the end of your sentence above. You ask an excellent question.
Our tradition is clear as a bell about that. We're not put on this earth to be a moth only fluttering around only one porchlight on this earth.
....We can't pick out things we don't like in each other and change it....Life doesn't work that way....
Spot on.
...I'm back to edit but see that time has moved on and has discussion and there's a serious discussion of subjugation and resignation that is developing, down below and more recently in this thread than the first version of this post, so I'm going delete here my attempt to talk with you as a Christian about humility vs. pride. Anyone reading the whole thread, by the time of its development now, would have the problem of trying to figure out whether earlier posts were being commented on by later ones. Since up to the moment of his edit, my remarks to you, C, about what Christians mean by humility hadn't been picked up on, so out they go for now. Not out of unwillingness, but because I think this thread has gotten too confusing to read in any linear way. Threads in get confusing that way, if they go on for very long; it's partly a feature of the formatting software.
Let me tell you though, C, that I think along the same lines as you do, about humility and pride. You said a lot of the package of what humility is, in Christian mode.
If my wife and I could swap our Pride and Ego's for Humility....
If we could swap self-absorption for concern for others...
If we could swap Victim mentality for Thankfulness....
If we could swap our blindness of our own reality to awareness of only our own reality....
Life in this household would have a different face....
Yes indeed.
I appreciate it that in every one of these sentences you used the word "we." Darn straight, Christian.
Here's one of my faves about humility by a Christian writer of some centuries ago. "Humility...is knowing who you REALLY are...among others, and in relation with God." That old quote seems to fit part of what you're telling us repeatedly, and I'm so glad that you are.
Now
You Read My Mind...C and NON
Submitted by kellyj on
I had some catching up do with my mental filing cabinet and I think for now....I'm going to enjoy the 4th of July weekend (maybe longer ) and take some time off for a bit. I tried to do that last week...but as you heard.... had some brush fires of my own to put out. lol
I think I've got them contained for the time being. Thanks for sounding that back to me:)
Happy 4th everyone:)
J
Happy Fourth, J
Submitted by NowOrNever (not verified) on
ah, brush fires, ah life....have a good one, J
Speaking of Macho Chicks
Submitted by kellyj on
I'm sorry up front for getting a little excited about this time every 4 years and apologize for my over enthusiasm here..... but since I referenced this already in this thread...I figured...if anyone is interested. The US Olympic Trials are just finishing up for swimming the track and field is just kicking off at Hayward Field (University of Oregon...go ducks! )same venue it's been for decades.
For those interested...it's be airing on cable NBC sports.
Anyway...I just watched Katie Ledecky (19 years old..super stud ) swim the 3rd fastest 400 meter Freestyle time in history....in the qualifying finals (For the Rio Summer Olympics coming right up)... missing the word record by a fraction of a second. What hit me in the head and dropped my jaw....was her split time for the first 100 meters which was 56.seconds. This is not a sprint mind you....it's 400 meters which is one you have to pace yourself a little.
Pace yourself my ass.....the best time that I ever recorded for 100 meters (all out sprint going as fast I could possibly go) when I was her age was about .59 ot 1.00 at my best. This was when I was in the best condition in my life and that was for a sprint. To put this in perspective....my 400 meter split time would have been about 1.05 or 1.06.....10 seconds slower than Katie Ledecky's spit comparing apple to apples.
And they say....men are stronger than women? Ha! Katie Ledecky is a super Stud. But you'd never tell by looking at her. It all comes from within and a lot of heart.
Okay...enough said. I'm back on break to watch more Olympic 'Trials:)
J
many kinds of love
Submitted by Delphine on
Now, wanted to address this:
And to wind down here. You're so right that love is the great frame of relation but that it's not specific enough to deal with particular kinds of interactions. I'll save it for another time, maybe, but I think love as the bandaid of all things is over rated.
There are many forms of love, including tough love. Speaking our truth, even if we know it likely won't be well received by the other, is also love.
Here's maybe something that's more technique related: I've read, regarding relationships, that it can be effective only to reinforce the good. Never to reinforce the dysfunctional. That's a tall order for ordinary people, but I think it's worth tackling.
And isn't that love in action?
But, re J's wife accusing him of being rude. I don't think it would be inappropriate to point out that "When you are pointing the finger at someone, three fingers are pointing back at yourself."
IMO, she was the rude one. Insufferably so.
Delphine
It all comes down to awareness....
Submitted by c ur self on
This may sound like I'm trying to simply it....But, for me it come down to awareness....What and Why?....For me the what is the many time's I am living as a victim (enforcer) recognition!....Why? The why is when I place expectations on myself that are faulty. Expectation to be and do things that cause me to (enter) slip off into a victim mindset...These expectations always seemed like the only choice....In my youth 13 years old, it may have been as simple as having to understand I had to be the one to hear the phone (Father abandoned us when I was 5, mother went to work at 5 am) and wake up my two brothers and make sure they got breakfast and got to the bus stop on time...I was forced into a care giving role early on. Most of my thinking about life and what is right and wrong is strait out of the Gospel....So saying that lets you know I have a hunger to be aware, to be a non threatening husband, Father, and Friend.... I really have to use my childhood, and past as only a tool, and never an excuse.
The reality of life for me is; there are certain attributes each person must have to live life the way it should be lived...And it's not rocket science....Accountability, Responsibility, Be Approachable....Never abusive, Never intrusive....For me; no matter what D does or say's my response's should show love...Even if I'm having to tell her no.... My wife lives quiet self absorbed....Life for her quiet like a Childs, Fun!...If she approaches me 20 times in a week, 18 will be...Will you do...or I want us to do....Or I'm going to do...If I approach her 5 times in a week, about anything to do w/ responsibility, it's meet 4 times w/ negativity... That's fine I accept it, but, by stepping back like I have, and doing the work to make myself aware of my enforcer type lifestyle and all the enabling I was doing.....It's changed the dynamic....She gets ugly and swears more frequently now, but, arguments don't happen as often because I want engage...So now when a manipulating question..Gets answered w/ an awareness statement....She doesn't like it...accountability sucks for some minds....But,, if I'm going to engage....Like Delphine say's...I need to be the New Creation!
C
edit:...I don't recall in my eight years of marriage....My wife once setting down and asking me....What do you want to do?...LOL...Or, showing any interest in just being there beside me w/o, having to control the interactions...Even Love making for her seems to be some kind self torture, every time I move, I hurt one of her chronic area's of pain....Anything related to submitting or giving, makes her a victim.....It's so sad....Just my view, but, if you aren't able to spend 30 minutes making love to your spouse because you are in such bad shape, but, you can spend all day, at an amusement park or riding an inter tube down a rough river....Something is wrong w/ that picture....Acceptance and Move on....
New Creation!
Submitted by Delphine on
C:
accountability sucks for some minds....But,, if I'm going to engage....Like Delphine say's...I need to be the New Creation!
Here's an idea for how you can be the New Creation in your relationship. Start imagining your wife as you would like her to be. Just switch your focus to that.
Remember at the site I quoted yesterday (I think it was), one of the central points:
One of the essential differences is that in the creative orientation you initiate any desired change by changing the contents of your brain, while in the reactive-responsive orientation you attempt to change conditions outside yourself, without changing the contents of your brain.
It may sound difficult or impossible to envision your wife being open, caring, responsive, when you are experiencing the opposite from her. But according to the Many Worlds Theory in quantum physics, there are many versions of ourselves . There is a version of your wife that does have the qualities you wish she had. Align yourself with that one. :)
Of course, this means you stop thinking and talking about how she presently behaves in your experience. Yes, it is a challenge. I'm working on this where my son is concerned. It is so easy to get stuck in ruts in our close relationships. People tend to live up to our vision or version of them.
Check it out: http://io9.gizmodo.com/the-9-weirdest-implications-of-the-many-worlds-in...
Delphine
I have no problem w/ multi-universes...
Submitted by c ur self on
In my understanding, all life that is breathed into existence; is eternal. Only the part made from dust returns to it's original state....I'm not opposed to multi-universe's seeing how this world was made, organized, populated and perfected in 6 days....
No one know's the mind of God, and If he decides that something is "Good"...Like he said the work he done in those 6 days was...Then his next designs or stickily his choice...Based on what he has reveled to us about himself, what ever he does will be Good...
As for as your suggestion; thank you for that... But, I think at this point I will stick to reality and acceptance of the same....
Trying to view her like I would desire her to be, is what got me into this mess...It's not her fault though...It's mine, I refused to see past my own selfish desires...Along w/ my lack of wisdom, and thinking way to highly of myself...
So I have been afforded an opportunity to become a new creation! One who can be happy and content in the midst of circumstances that even Quantum Physics would say is impossible in this time line....
Blessings Delphine
C
Acceptance is good...
Submitted by Delphine on
...I'm all for it. Just be aware, acceptance is not resignation. http://ducielalaterre.org/fichiers/travail_sur_soi/difference_entre_resi...
"Resignation means submission to an experience, and submission means non-acceptance."
But if you are truly happy and content with "what is," then I salute you.
Have a good holiday weekend!
Delphine
Submission doesn't mean you are wrong about something......
Submitted by c ur self on
That's the beauty of Acceptance of reality...The actions that produce experience's are stand alone moments of reality...They do not have to be comprehended or judged by the human mind....And will always produce fruit of it's own kind....
I hope your holiday weekend is grand as well:)
C
I guess you are right C, if
Submitted by Delphine on
I guess you are right C, if you accept your resignation/submission, and are truly happy and content :)
Blessings!
Delphine
Submission....Just my view.....
Submitted by c ur self on
I don't want to get to deep into the submission talk...I will just say this...When I am unwilling to submit, I am at my worst as a human being and as a believer.....I believe the gospel, it identifies roles in life, the church, and in marriage....It can't be demanded or sought...It must flow from the inner man....
C
Acceptance and Flowing
Submitted by Delphine on
Perhaps you may find the article I shared with J (on dealing with controlling partners) helpful, C. Here is the link again.
http://www.lifeway.com/Article/HomeLife-Marriage-Positive-Ways-to-Influe...
We can be in acceptance and still work to improve relationships and situations. btw, the author of that piece is on the staff of Calvary Baptist Church, so we can assume the info is in line with Christian teachings. He has a website: http://www.5lovelanguages.com/
Delphine
Resignation Means Submission to an Experience
Submitted by kellyj on
"Resignation means submission to an experience, and submission means non-acceptance." ...."But if you are truly happy and content with "what is," then I salute you." I couldn't agree with you more Delphine. But as I read the article where this quote came from....I still say something is missing here? There is a contradiction in terms here. Meaning....if you aren't really accepting and you've just resigned yourself to be the way you are and that's works for you....Se la Vie? I'm happy anyway and content with that?
I think what is possible...is accepting "submission" as a personal choice or preference...and then, being Okay and comfortable with being in that submissive role. That is...submissive vs passive. Big difference!! The way that was worded....it makes it sound like taking on a submissive role is negative and you've just resigned yourself or settling for less. The article was also not considered an intimate relationship with another person per se.....as it was presented....this is more of a spiritual personal relationship you have with yourself I think.
All things considered here.....submission can be a positive thing if this works for you and you accept it. I think if the balance or power is offset or weighted to one side of the other in a relationship...as long as both parts are happy with being in their perspective roles then this is not necessarily negative or being resigned if this is somewhat by choice and this is the equilibrium that works for two people. To each their own as they say?
But in terms of being truly happy......free will kind of gets in the way when you are talking about being entwined with another person when the balance of power is not by choice by both parties together or agreed upon as things settle in to their natural state of balance I think?
I don't think the problem is submission as much as it is subjugation:
subjugate
: to defeat and gain control of (someone or something) by the use of force : to conquer and gain the obedience of (a group of people or person etc.
to bring under control and governance as a subject : conquer
2 : to make submissive : subdue
3. To make subordinate or subject to the dominion of something else:
synonym:conquer, vanquish, defeat, crush, quash, bring someone to their knees, enslave, subdue, suppress
Here's the problem I have with my own particular situation....as I see it. No way...can I accept or tolerate this and be happy at the same time. Not on your life!! But to a certain degree....I have to put up with this until my wife learns a better way to get her needs met other than this one. This goes against everything I believe in and stand for in myself and my own persoanly integrity.
I took this excerpt from an article that sums this up perfectly for me. This ties right into what I was saying about "how it's done"...or... "doing things differently or better."
"Why Anyone Would Want to Control You?"
"The need to control others may not make a lot of sense to you. If you’re a live-and-let-live person, you’d never want to control someone else. Even if you’re a perfectionist, you stay on your own case all day, not necessarily someone else’s."
This opening sentence....sums me up completely and accurately right to the letter. This is who I am without a doubt in my mind what so ever and I've never not been this way my entire life. Done deal:)
But controllers are out there. They want to micromanage what you say, how you act, even what you think quietly in your own mind. It could be your boss, your spouse, or even your parent. You can’t be yourself around them. They insist on being your top priority and want undue influence over your life. They might push your buttons to get an emotional reaction out of you because they want to exploit it as weakness. They have no respect for you or your boundaries.
I have a major league personal problem with this. MAJOR LEAGUE!!! The reason for this with me personally came from a parent that I've already discussed ad nauseam to use as examples here on this here of the forum already...no need to add to this part since this is not my wife as I am saying this.
There are plenty of theories why someone would want to control you....
"One is that people who can’t control themselves turn to controlling others. This happens on an emotional level. A person full of insecurities has to exact a positive sense of self from other people because their self esteem is too low to do it for themselves."
This is my wife....to the letter and exactly what I see. She does not exude self confidence and is admittedly and rather openly insecure and has self esteem issues and how I reflect to her is what she is so dependent on for her own self esteem. But as I've said here before....on the sliding scale...she is not at the extreme end. This is a strong tendencie but not a completely dominant part of her personality. As I see it...it comes and goes. More that she succumbs to it at certain times and not others. What makes her succumb is feeling out of control. The more control she has over her own life...the less she acts this way. She is not hopelessly locked into this way of being all the time and never changing. With her its more...when push comes to shove and she starts to dig her heals in. Being this way is more sporadic and episodic and goes back and forth depending on. But as I see her....she really doesn't want to be this way for all the negative aspects this has for her. In other words...she really is more submissive in one respect....but can't let go and trust enough to allow that to happen. This is quite accurate in describing her all said and done.
"Maybe people control because they are afraid of being abandoned. They don’t feel secure in their relationships and are often testing to see if they’re about to be betrayed. The paradox is that their behavior creates exactly what they fear the most."
Hitting the nail right on the head again with my wife. It's not from her need to dominate...it's from fear and insecurity
Perhaps controlling people are narcissists looking to control their environment by any means necessary. This would mean other people are pawns. They’re useful tools in the narcissist’s world to be used as he or she pleases. It’s nothing personal — you’re just a good pawn. The problem with this perspective is that controlling bullies often make us wonder, “Why me?” If it’s really nothing personal, “Why do I feel like a target?”
Not so much for my wife. This is where she departs from that last possibility for the most part...but that doesn't mean on my side of things....that it doesn't feel this way to me sometimes. This is that.....needing to divorce myself from what I've known ( and how it feels for me sometimes) from my past and my PTSD triggers.
The simplest reason is that you’re a good, admirable person. There’s nothing wrong with you. You don’t have a target on your back, and you don’t deserve to be disrespected. It may sound like a radical concept, but what the controller wants is what you’ve got:
You’re able to feel good about yourself consistently and without constant reminders from the outside world that you’re worthy.
You’re secure in your accomplishments, your status, and your overall place in life.
Your attention makes other people feel good.
You can feel good about other people’s success — you’re not intimidated by others good fortune.
Again...despite having ADHD and all my failings....I'm also comfortable saying that this statement fits me well in how I see myself and how I see others as well. Very consistently so even if I have my moments or times or self doubt and weakness but for the most part...this is my default.
Given all those things, you know you deserve respect, but a controlling person is too intimidated to give it to you. They feel they must cut you down to size. It’s the only way they can tolerate being around you.
BINGO!! This is that....."why are you competing with me? WTF up with that?" It's also what just happened on the boating excursion and I think exactly why my wife has these moments like that. What this boils down to is envy...for no good reason at all. This...is completely unacceptable and I have a another major league personal problem with this. MAJOR LEAGUE!! LOL This is a matter of respect....right on the money. I have more respect for myself..than to be treated this way for doing nothing but being myself. Free will...or strong will? Either way you want to slice it. This is not about needing to be respected by others from not having it for myself (ownership)....this is about having that MUCH respect for myself and pretty much not accepting anything less from my partner. Period!! lol
While there’s definitely an explanation for why the controller is the way they are, it doesn’t matter. It’s time to reclaim your power and focus on your own needs. This means setting steadfast boundaries and keeping the controller from stepping foot on the other side. Decide what you’re no longer willing to sacrifice.
In respect to my situation with my wife...I didn't need to reclaim what I already have (and had from the get go with her)...this is the part of not knowing any other way but one in asserting myself under these conditions. In respect to the responsibility I have for my own part to play here.....this is the "how it's done part" and "how to do this better" that can stand some work. I have no problem and am not uncomfortable doing this as a rule when I have to.....it's how I've learned to do it which pretty much is a one way ticket out the door as my normal way of handling this. If I never want to see that person again or it's not a situation where I have to remain (and them with me).....the way I've learned to do this is extremely effective!! LOL Not so good when this is not the case and that's where all my failures have come in confronting this with my wife. This is what I am learning how to do differently. The real problem I've had personally here...is having to fight tooth and nail for those boundaries which meant every time I try....there is a fight. I'm not fighting my wife or starting these fights. All I have to do to make her angry...is just attempt to set a boundary. Setting personably boundaries for myself is all it takes to trigger her sometimes. I call Bull Shit on that one...but that has never stopped me from doing it. It's just the amount of effort I've had to put in...and the fear of doing it again from being such a battle. This is where the approach I use...has everything to do with it. The better the approach...the less effort and work it is for me so it serves my best interest in finding better ways.
Is this my personal problem or has to do with my ADHD. Hell No!! This is her issue...not mine. But I have to deal with it...or subjugate to her which I refuse to do out of my own self respect and to maintain the self esteem I already have. No way...Jose!!! lol
Some examples include:
No longer be made to feel like your ideas and contributions don’t matter. Less that I don't feel they do...more in getting that message across to my wife since this is when she cuts me off or tries to end the conversation to prevent me from doing this with her. Or tries to make unilateral decisions without asking me first. This doesn't work for me at all..... all this does is piss me off!!
Not letting them belittle your accomplishments and talk down to you. I can stop her from trying and she really can't belittle me or change the way I feel about myself. But talking down to me....
Not allowing anyone to push your buttons. This is a tough one for me that stand some more work. It has to do with my PTSD and my own personal triggers. This is my responsibility and contribution whether I fail to do this or not. Not making anything I do contingent on anyone else...is the very thing that is needed to do this. Bottom line.
Not willing not subjugate your own needs for this person.
HELL NO!!! Fucking A !!! It will be a cold day in Hell when this ever happens. I guarentee it!! lol
The controller has been the benefactor of your good will for too long. Now it’s time to put that in your own corner. It’s about self-preservation, and you’ll know when you’re doing it right because you won’t feel like a target anymore. In fact, the controller probably won’t have much use for you.
This is the line...of demarkation right there. Either they won't have much use for you....or they will change and stay. But you won't know that until you get to that bridge. If there is a litmus test for Narcissism.....this is it right here. A full blown Narc will throw you in the toilet...like a used piece of tissue paper and won't think twice in holding that against you. If you challenge them...they will be out the door and gone before you know it. If a person like this stays....then it's something else as from my own personal expereince. In my wife's case....these are tests. The many times she threatens to leave....but never does. Pitewy. She can do that all day long...and I'm still not budging. Is this annoying as Hell or at times...have taken the bait and let that in......but only for a short time when I go...." God Damn it!!! She did it again. errrrrrrrrrr!!!" That's my failure in this case...but I've had it up to my eye balls with these test at this point. I am no longer taking the bait:)
Here's the deal with me 'Delphine. This statement...sums it all up for me in a way there is no getting around. Now it’s time to put that in your own corner. It’s about self-preservation, and you’ll know when you’re doing it right because you won’t feel like a target anymore.
As my T said to me once...when I asked him why I didn't turn out worse off than I might have or should have possibly? And in terms of why some people succumb to these things and remain victims all their lives or others don't. I can only answer this for myself...but I do know the answer. Using my T's words here..."somehow....somewhere....at some point in time when you were growing up....you saw your own value and found your own sense of self worth."
I've soul searched this many times and it has been hard to place this exactly. But no matter what has happened in my life and no matter how bad things have ever been. There is a fire that burns inside me...that there is just no denying. This is character as far as I can tell? It is an unwillingness to compromise yourself and a personal line or boundary that no one can cross. This is all about self respect for yourself....and not needing it from anyone else. It's all about taking ownership of the strengths you have...and wielding them in a way that teach's others how to treat you in no uncertain terms. I may be stubborn, strong willed and a pain in the ass at times...but this is part of it and you can't have one without the other I think. What makes me strong...is also what makes me weak....but that goes right back to learning how to do things differently...not trying to change who I am. This is about learning to tempering the fire so it others don't get burned by it....without losing this character trait...even if some....don't like this aspect all so much. I've found however....the only people who don't like it...are the ones on the other side of it that this article described extremely well.
This is what I learned from my swim coach in part......"digging down deep and going through the wall." But that was just learning how to use what you I already had. It's why I was the identified patient in my family and became the scape goat for all my families problems. It's why I had to march to my own drummer....despite the pain and the heartache this caused me. Not by choice...but for self preservation and survival.
This is that line in the sand...that there is no going back from. This is that growing some big brass balls...when you are petrified with fear and you are backed into a corner with no where to run...the same as I witnessed with my mother doing the same thing with my father when she saw how this was effecting me and harming me even if she wouldn't do it for herself.
This is about paying your dues, paying the man....and knowing where you stand and not backing down from a fight what ever form it comes in....even at great cost to yourself in order to do this. At the same time.... not having to do this where ever you go ( like my wife from her own lack in this area) .... since you own this already and no one can take it from you no matter how hard they try.
This is all about being your own hero and leader and not needing anyone else to do that for you. This is all about inner strength, internal fortitude, resilience and trusting yourself without fear ...and the ability to turn and face the Dragon and meet him head on. This is all about learning how to adapt, overcome. and being persistent....and not letting obstacles stand in your way or prevent you from doing what you need to do for yourself, by yourself....and not needing anyone to do those things for you. This is all about 'I can do it" with that same "can do" attitude that "yes" as your first response...instead of "no". This is the glass half full....instead of half empty.
But I think for me.....it's valuing yourself and an inability to allow others to control you and take that from you no matter how hard they try. Thinking in those terms.....they're the ones who are saying "it's my way or the highway"....and that little voice inside me that says...."you can go piss up a rope!!" lol
So as it said in this article...that it's time to reclaim your power......the only thing missing here with me...is just learning how to wield that power better since I own it and that has never not been the case with me. Mostly....I've been afraid to use it in the face of someone trying to put the fire out or take my ability to use it away from me out of the fear that they will leave unless I capitulate. I have done this before in my past....but never again. I've payed my dues and have earned the right to use it regardless of whether they like it or not. That's their choice....I've already made my choice when it comes to this and there is no going back from it.
So in my wife's case....she can take it or leave it (or leave me)....but I won't compromise the fire that I have spent a life time in keeping the fire burning. It will be a cold day in Hell...when someone takes this from me. I've paid too high a price...to compromise myself and my integrity to allow that to happen.
In using those words.....I think this really is the currency that needs to be used with my wife in this one aspect as my T presented this riddle to me. It not about fighting her or submitting to her or resigning yourself to someone who's trying to control you like this out of their own lack of self control and insecurities. It's all about not allowing them to do it...and teaching them over time...how to treat you and with the expectation that they respect you and your personal boundaries. Not needing those things from them....since you already own them....is really all you need in order to do this. You are in the power position....when someone is coming to you and needs something from you....that you already own and need nothing from them in this way. They may appear in control or are better at manipulating you to get you to subjugate your needs to them....but even within that....you can be submissive or not and is really doesn't matter? I can be dominate or submissive as needed and it since it's not important or necessary to be either one to have what I already own?
I think in terms of being a victim....your options are few. If you need something from others ...then they have you over a barrel. In that case....resigning yourself and compromising yourself may be one of only two options you might have.
I think this is a misconception in part for one reason only. The only true victims in this world...are children. They have no options and really are dependent on others for their only means of survival. Adults on the other hand....are only victims by choice. No one can abuse you...unless you allow them to. Not allowing them....is the answer right there. You should always be able to walk away from any situation....no matter what. As an adult....you can to that right this very minute...or any time you choose. No one can stop you...unless they chained and shackled you or put you in a cell with bars to hold you. Unless that's the case....then you're not a victim unless you choose to be. No one can control you or abuse you...unless you allow them to which might include subjugating and resigning yourself to the fact...that you have to accept it and you can do nothing to stop them.
And as far as I'm concerend.....my wife can try....but she'll never succeed. It will be a cold day in Fucking Hell....when I ever allow that to happen. I have too much self respect and have paid an extremely high price to compromise that to anyone. I've paid my dues.....she'll have to pay hers too if she wants them herself. No one can do that for you....if you can't get that for yourself.
I think the only caveat here....is leading by example. You can't speak with any authority...unless you own it from inside.... and it's shows the on the outside in the forms of character and integrity. That's the way to go about it...now that I've had a chance to think about it.
The currency and language you need to use with a controller....is respect, integrity and character. The very things that are missing which they envy and covet. I think all things considered....this is the answer right there.
link:http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2015/09/23/why-anyone-would-want-t...
J
Ton's of good info. in this post J
Submitted by c ur self on
I see my wife in the one you list as your wife....But, there is more to it I think; she is a mix...And I should add (for a preacher of self study) I see my own tendencies and some of the things I've had to work on....My own insecurities and the unhealthy things that have popped up trying to deal w/ her....Is that blame? or just truth? LOL...Anyway there mine, and I need to stay on top of them.....
(While there’s definitely an explanation for why the controller is the way they are, it doesn't’t matter. It’s time to reclaim your power and focus on your own needs. This means setting steadfast boundaries and keeping the controller from stepping foot on the other side. Decide what you’re no longer willing to sacrifice.)
J this statement is definitely true, but, when it's your own wife....It is quiet disheartening to have to live so guarded...But, the alternative isn't good....And every time I let my guard down she shows me....
I will add one more point that has become clear to me about this controlling mindset....When you do place firm boundaries and move on with your focus on your own life...The controlling minded person (many of whom are equally dependent) In the beginning they will fight it....."They want wike it" !!!...But, if there is true feelings and commitment they will usually have more moments of self awareness...even if its by default....Reversing the curse isn't easy, but, definitely a life saver....
Thanks again for all the work and research you put into your posts....
C
Disallowing
Submitted by Delphine on
Just curious J, how do you propose to disallow your wife's controlling behavior? If it has gone on all this time, it seems pretty firmly entrenched and she is resistant to change.
OK, as I said, I'm curious so I did a search and found this, think it makes good points. Perhaps it will help.
http://www.lifeway.com/Article/HomeLife-Marriage-Positive-Ways-to-Influe...
The Right Road
There are two positive approaches that have proven successful for many.
Influence By Agreement.
You agree with the controller's arguments but don't allow yourself to be controlled by them. Respectfully agreeing without allowing yourself to be controlled holds tremendous potential for influencing a controlling spouse. This approach doesn't strike at the controller's self-worth or significance. You aren't arguing that the ideas are bad, which will always be interpreted as personal criticism. However, it's important to follow through with the second half of this approach and not allow yourself to be controlled by the controller, such as the executive decision to buy certain appliances for the sake of the budget. This approach applied consistently over a period of time has influenced many controllers to a more balanced approach to life.
Play to His or Her Strengths.
In the world of sports and business, good supervisors find the strengths of the player or employee and utilize them to the maximum. This principle also works in marriage and is especially helpful for influencing a controller. Since the controller is performance-oriented, he or she will respond to challenges to reach a given goal. Therefore, the controlling spouse will welcome a request to help, such as: "You're really good at mapping out strategies to reach goals. Would you be willing to help me with a project? A friend of mine has asked me to come up with practical ideas about how she and her husband can enrich their marriage. I have some ideas, but would you give some thought to that? Next week, maybe we can pool our ideas." You may be surprised at the ideas the controller will produce.
Ideas often include discussing a book on marriage, attending a marriage enrichment seminar, setting aside time each day for conversation, having a date night once a week, buying a gift even when there's no special occasion, and so forth. Having helped generate ideas, the task-oriented controller may be more willing to pursue such activities. If you can influence your controlling spouse to turn his or her natural skills toward improving your marriage, you both may benefit.
You won't win an argument with a controller; you can only prolong the battle. Influencing by agreement and playing to his or her strengths are much more helpful approaches. Both assume a kind, but firm refusal to be controlled. You can't change your spouse, but you can influence him or her.
Good luck J!
Delphine
Just curious J, how do you propose
Submitted by kellyj on
to disallow your wife's controlling behavior?
I was just coming in to turn off my computer and saw your question. I think this is the million dollar one I've been struggling to find? Quickly...I'll leave you with my thoughts so far.
Negotiation...Since the controller is performance-oriented, he or she will respond to challenges to reach a given goal.
So what's the currency here and how do you leverage this? $$$$$$$$$$????? I don't mean money....$ means currency??? This is where my wife and I are on completely different planets and why I cannot understand the currency to use with her?
What I hold to have the greatest value of all? ( which I see as a component of unconditional Love )
Loyalty.....above all else. That's the currency....that is most valuable to me that my wife appears to have very little need or place much value on? Her loyalties appear weak to me and if you cannot be loyal...you cannot defer to someone else. It's that simple. Without loyalty as I see it....there can be no foundation for trust therefore....a disloyal person cannot be trusted fundamentally speaking. As I see it? This is the ethical/moral dilemma I'm struggling with?
A person can be unreliable in every way imaginable....but if they are loyal....that over rides everything else in my book.
Loyalty as I see it...can only interpersonal. It cannot be to a third party: cause, God, or group. As I see it...is the the same kind of loyalty that dogs have to use here to show the difference.
In Bushido...."Loyalty" is the most important and frequently emphasized virtue in Bushido as Righteousness (義 gi?), Courage (勇 yū?), Benevolence, (仁 jin?), Respect (礼 rei?), Sincerity (誠 makoto?), Honour
Jesus states, "No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other.
Loyalty is "an essential ingredient in any civilized and humane system of morals". Loyalty is "the willing and practical and thoroughgoing devotion of a person to a cause" Loyalty is thoroughgoing in that it is not merely a casual interest but a wholehearted commitment....to which one's heart can become attached or devoted"
As I see myself....this is the currency I have and use that is of the highest value of all. You can count on it. Like money in the bank.
Every time my wife threatens to leave and use that as a tool to test me....she is showing her complete lack or disregard for loyalty and appears that loyalty is valueless to her? Or when her friend arrived on the boat and she shunned me for wanting her help or being upset when I didn't get it?
"It's always something with him" This was the one of the most completely shameful and disrespectful displays of disloyalty to date. This is a stab right in the heart for me every time she shows her lack of loyalty. Without loyalty...there can be no trust? Her loyalty is fickle and seems to change with her moods or the day of the week and is dependent on lots of different variables which basically as I see it....she has no loyalty at all but to herself and that is basically....no loyalty at all. She's serving two masters and that is highly suspect to me? She values nothing here as far as I can tell? I have a very hard time respecting disloyalty...in fact...it's almost impossible for me to resolve this in my mind since....I fundamentally....have no respect for disloyalty what so ever.
So in my mind....loyalty has the highest value of any currency you could use with me. Coming from that place....I have no idea what currency to use with my wife as it seems...loyalty has little to no value for her or is very low on the Totem pole when it comes to negotiation?
I'll give this more thought when I come back after my break but I just wanted to leave that here as food for thought:)
Happy 4th Delphine.
J
Angel Letters
Submitted by Delphine on
J, I was thinking about your post when I was out walking, and I remembered this technique for healing conflicts with people. Writing to their "angel" or higher self.
This technique is in line with the creative orientation as described by Robert Fritz.
http://aplacefortheheart.co.uk/things-to-try/angel-letters/
Forgiveness of self and others is very important for your health and well-being. There are many ways of going about the process of forgiveness we do some very practical exercises on the workshops, but this is something you can try right now.
Angel letters are a powerful forgiveness technique. To write an angel letter It is not necessary for you to believe in angels. Follow the instructions below.
Set aside at least fifteen minutes for this at a time and place where you will not be disturbed. Get some writing paper and a pen.
At the head of the paper write “An Angel letter to the higher self of………carried in love by the angels/my higher self” (filling in the name of the person you wish to forgive or have forgive you).
Start your letter “Dear…..” then follow with a paragraph or more, put here all your feelings and experiences which have caused dis-ease between you, be direct and honest.
Next follow with a paragraph or more about the good things that have happened between you, or details of what you have learned from the difficult experiences (there is always something good that comes out of any situation). You can also add here the way you would like things to be between you (only positive loving thoughts please).
Finish with this: “I bless you and release you to your highest good. The spirit in me forgives you for all the anger and sorrow that has been between us. The spirit in you forgives me for all the anger and sorrow that has been between us, now and forever. In the spirit of love, signed………..”. This letter is now carried to its destination by the angels/my higher self for the good of all concerned.
Now fold the angel letter, address it to the person or situation concerned and place it in a special place (where no one else will read it) for up to 48 hours. You will know when it has been sent. Then burn it or throw it away.
Give it a try!
I keep coming back to this victim peace....One other thought...
Submitted by c ur self on
If a person's has a mindset that borders on addiction to self-Entertainment and Frivolity (or most anything for that matter) it is almost impossible for them to be reasoned with concerning it....It's like asking an Alcoholic to have one drink w/ a quart on the table....
Add to that...A Controlling Spirit and a victim mindset and I have found that wisdom say's stay away!
There's about a 90% chance it want end well......
What has happened w/ us way to often in these instances is it's all fun and smiles until you decide we should head home....Because that statement can't be accepted or submitted to by an addictive controlling mind, the victim's countenance immediately turns....This type mind usually can't accept or respect a NO or a "We need to go", ....The addiction along w/ the controlling spirit will make the priority of what ever the action your involved in skyrocket in their minds to a level above reason and in many cases above family (spouse, children etc.). And it doesn't matter how aware of this you are...It's coming! And no response you could have can keep the peace for the relationship....NOT ONE....
So because this is one of the realities of our lives, I'm having to cut-off sharing in the things, I know she can't be reasoned about....She will eventually become of aware of this....Our grown kids see it also, and hate dealing w/ it....When we were at the beach our oldest Son finally had to hurt her feelings about keeping on trying to force everyone to play a game....She just went in the bedroom and pouted....Never once showing any remorse or awareness....I often wonder what's going on in mind or heart in these instances....
edit: This goes back to the article I read...People who can't control themselves; lives to control others"
C
Good article C
Submitted by Delphine on
I can see myself there at various times in various roles. However I am committed to taking absolute responsibility for where I am at, and "getting everyone else out of the equation."
Recognizing myself as the predominant creative force in my life. IOW, "the buck stops here."
This is one of the books that has been influential for me in developing that approach:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004EEOPYK/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UT...
Glad you are finding your way to answers and to hope, C.
Delphine
Thanks Delphine...I like it also.....
Submitted by c ur self on
(-Problem-solving vs. creating---
Fritz argues for a distinction between problem-solving and creating. Problem-solving is taking actions to have something go away: the problem. While problem-solving has its place, as a persistent approach, it limits accomplishment. The elimination of a problem does not mean that the desired result can be created. As distinguished, solving a problem does not by design lead to a creation. Creating is taking action to bring into being that which does not yet exist: the desired outcome.)
I think Mr Fritz makes a great point in his arguments....I high lighted an insert from his work above....Changing the under lying structure in business as well as our personal lives to move forward and continue to advance...vs...working to solve problems, and continue to oscillate back and forth...This all makes perfect sense to me. The buck stops w/ me statement you made is similar to my approach...
Acceptance of reality vs fight against something real and present, (my denial) is my approach (structural change) to building for advancement vs the up and down (oscillating) or problem solving approach...I've always been pretty good at trouble shooting and problem solving....To the point of dependency in some areas. And that is acceptable and needed with many things, especially when you're in your kitchen and a pipe breaks and it's filling up w/ water. Or one of us is stranded on the side of the road. But, it isn't much good when the problems are manifesting themselves on a frequent basis from an untouchable source that you choose to be tied to...(more reality)...
As you know in business, we call this "putting our fires"...And the frequency of the fires usually leads to change. My failures, and repeating the processes, (oscillating) has shown me Mr.Fritz is right. I must change my under lying structure to something that sustains advancement....
Thanks for sharing!
C
Glad you found value in Fritz
Submitted by Delphine on
Glad you found value in Fritz's point there, C. Agree that problem-solving has its place, and also its limitations, as compared to creating.
I found a page with some good clarifications of his basic concepts.
http://freedom-school.com/lewis-mohr/how-to-master-power-money-and-love.pdf
Two radically different life-orientations can be distinguished:
(a) The reactive-responsive orientation, characterized by reacting and responding to events and external conditions;
(b) The creative orientation, characterized by you being the predominant creative power in your life.
One of the essential differences is that in the creative orientation you initiate any desired change by changing the contents of your brain, while in the reactive-responsive orientation you attempt to change conditions outside yourself, without changing the contents of your brain.
One of the most important aspects of the reactive-responsive orientation can be called "overcoming resistance" or "changing the system."
You attempt to apply a stronger force to overcome an opposing force. You attempt to launch into battle a better system to overpower a weaker system. Imagine two opposing fists. If one fist pushes harder, the opposing fist tends to react by strengthening its own resisting push... the stuff wars are made of!
In the reactive-responsive orientation you experience yourself being at the effect (or mercy) of external circumstances, that is, more or less helpless. In the creative orientation you experience yourself at cause over (or in control of) external circumstances, that is, powerful.
HOW TO MASTER POWER, MONEY, AND LOVE
2
In the reactive-responsive orientation your feelings and emotions may be the predominant factors that determine your actions. In the creative orientation your choices are the predominant power and you do what you choose, sometimes in spite of how you feel. Though you still regard your feelings as important messengers.
In the creative orientation you focus on the result; the process for achieving the result is secondary; "what" precedes "how."
More good stuff there on making fundamental choices of what we want.
Most people are in the reactive-responsive mode, in relationships--trying to force outer change--and as you noted, this isn't a sustainable approach long term. I am still putting these concepts to work for myself.
Prayer is a definite creative force, when used properly--when it is about changing our consciousness rather than pleading for external change.
Delphine
I failed this week. Twice.
Submitted by DependentOrigination on
Very helpful article. Excellent self awareness exercise.
SG rescuer here. Middle child in dysfunctional family. This last four years I have been faithfully rotating around the triangle. Spent a solid year in the victim role and a solid year in the persecutor role. I had started to question, before reading this article, how much of my perceived unhappiness came from needing to keep my husband in a victim role and me in the rescuer. The interesting thing about marrying an ADHD spouse is that I probably would have stayed in the rescuer role my whole life if I hadn't been forced, by his endless needs, and my exhaustion to establish some boundaries or risk my sanity.
I am worried a bit about your comment that you keep your guard up at all times as that is the conclusion I have come to as well and I find it a fairly uncomfortable position to be in.
I think this was particularly helpful in helping me address my relationship with my daughter. I think I have been doing a better job of allowing her to take on age appropriate responsibility. I hope I continue to do so.
This thread is particularly good and I am thankful I found it. When I am making mistakes like the ones I made this week, I will try to track down these articles and read them. Dammit. I had been doing so well.
C, excellent article
Submitted by dedelight4 on
C, this is a great article. I loved ALL of it, but ESPECIALLY loved the part about 'projection", (also denial) which I've watched my husband and family do for a very long time.
" Sometimes a role is played “beneath the surface.” It may not be externally evident as in the case described above. Because Lisa cannot take responsibility for her own anger (because to see herself as being “bad like dad” would be too painful) she rescues herself through denial. She takes herself off the hook by projecting her unwanted feelings onto her husband. This allows her to pretend she’s not angry (he’s the angry one, not her). On one level it feels better to believe that she’s not mean and angry like her dad was. The shadow consequences, however are that it sets her up to blame and persecute Ted and allows her to stay unconscious about her own personal anger. This is the nature of projection on the triangle. "
Wow, does this in many ways, describe my husband. He prides himself in "not" being or "getting" angry, but yet he is "seething" underneath his facade, and when an opportunity arises, he can unleash that anger all over the place. His students and others have told me they don't LIKE approaching or talking to him because he looks and acts so angry, much of the time, to which he usually says.... ANGRILY..........."I'M NOT ANGRY, WHY DOES EVERYONE KEEP SAYING THAT?" Well, there has to be SOME anger, just in the way he re-acts to all those who even dares question his angry demeanor. So, I guess he is in denial of just HOW angry he is, and that it DOES show itself to people. He has to learn to stop being so angry on the INSIDE or himself, to where it's manifesting itself on the OUTSIDE of him. I love the old quote, and even wrote a song about it. The quote is" The eyes are the windows of the soul", which is the first line of the first verse in my song called "Different Eyes". I'm humbled by the fact that everyone who's listened to it, has tears in their eyes and/or has cried through it.
But, projection is something we have ALL done at times, in bad ways, and that is not good. Then, there are others, and again, ( not all ADHD) that project their "negative" emotions onto others so that THEY don't have to FEEL them and/or especially ACT or RE-ACT in better ways to control them. (self-control) Anyway, just my 2 cents.
"Projection" is something we have ALL done.....
Submitted by kellyj on
at times, in bad ways, and that is not good."
Dede....I liked that article too and exactly to the point, we ALL project what we feel along with our own perceptions ALL the time everyday....but we ALL don't do it quite like this ALL the time in defense, deflection or deference to other people and ourselves both...at the same time...ALL the time!! If that makes sense? And why is that? Because we all don't have unresolved issues relating to ourselves or those who've disappointed us and remain angry at them indefinitely!!! That's why? And to the point....when we don't even know WHAT we're angry about ( and can't explain it to anyone else)..and we carry that around with us ALL the time...it seeps out of your pores and it's not like....no one else can notice that? How obvious is that...when someone is frowning all the time and is constantly looking at what is negative and what is wrong instead of what is right? ALL the time???
My wife for example......"I don't want to talk about it". "IT?"....what is "IT?". What she really means is......"I don't want to "hear about "IT"...which I've come to find is exactly what she really means!!
"Because Lisa cannot take responsibility for her own anger (because to see herself as being “bad like dad” would be too painful) she rescues herself through denial. She takes herself off the hook by projecting her unwanted feelings onto her husband. "
Yep......"a victim, is a person...who refuses to take responsibility for themselves and their actions".....quoting my T there. And simply put.....takes their own failure out on other people to see this and kicks the dog.....instead. You being the "dog" in this metaphor...or at least in Lisa's case....her husband. That's just crazy talk.....but yet....it's exactly what happens and it drives (ME)...personally "crazy!!!". LOL That is....because in this case "Lisa"....is my wife...and I'm the dog!!! LOL This is where I can speak out a little and say something I've not had the opportunity to say....exactly? ( lol ) Or maybe succinctly?? ( lol )
Despite ( or in spite of ??? )....the fact that I have ADHD and my wife has to deal with everything that goes with it which she does and there is no denying this fact....what I'm not doing, is kicking the dog, my wife, you and other people ALL the time.....and walking around angry with a hair trigger and ready to explode at the first sign of a problem or that I just "don't like something" or "I'm disappointed" that things don't always go MY WAY???? Everyone projects their perceptions and emotions which is how we know what others are thinking or feeling which is in the non-verbal language or "expression" other than in "words". And if you have NO ability...to express yourself other than is words....it leaves you doing it in other ways......like "road rage" every where you go?
And I can honestly say....I don't have "road rage" either on the "road"....or in a chronic way of handling these situations ( NEVER....as far as "road rage" is concerned. I mean that as in NEVER and I'll take that one to the bank and to my death bed!!! LOL ) Sometimes....."shit happens"....and that just the way it is? We can like it or NOT??? But it doesn't change the fact that "shit happens"...does it? LOL
I remember my Doctor telling me once....when I went in to see him with a Sinus Infection? He said.. "You know what Sinus's are??? Gods idea of a bad joke because we have no idea why their there exactly or what purpose they serve ( exactly? ) aside from getting full of bacteria and causing usa lot of headaches!!! " So does that mean ( of give me the right? ) be angry and irritated and snap everyone head off when I get a headache and a sinus infection just because God see's this as a funny way to get a rise out of us?? ( factiously said of course lol ).
But going back to this attachment theory.....ONCE AGAIN!!! lol
"The mother...leaves the infant for a time...and while she's gone...the infant gets upset and then gets angry each time the mother leaves. But instead of being relieved or feels glad to see the mother return....the infant remains angry and is "inconsolable" even when the mother tries to comfort the child?"
That ...is a "frick'in" long time to stay angry in my book!!!! LOL I'd call that "denial" wouldn't you? Denial of....."IT". "I don't want to talk about "IT" God Damn "IT"!!!!!" Case in point...but that's not my problem? ( as I would be apt to say? )
The thing is....( and I've tried repeatedly to say this to my wife )....most of what she is upset at it seems...are just "pet peeves" in the stickiest sense of the word? And not for a minute am I going back on what I said about me and my ADHD and all that goes with it? But what I said about "expressing" my "own displeasure" or things and "kicking the dog"....is not my problem however....since I'm the "dog" here...and "kicking" is unacceptable behavior....then as means of communicating your "needs"....then that one pretty much "sucks" as very good way to do it especially when what they are really angry at...has nothing to do with you???
It's this kind of "projection"...as means to throw that back in your face after you just got "kicked" and said...."hey....what's you problem!!!"....and they say..."I'm not the problem....you're the problem!!! I'm not the one who's crazy.....YOUR THE ONE who's crazy!!!!"
Oh yeah?? Well staying angry at your mother for not meeting your needs when you were a child is pretty ridiculous....even if it's not "crazy"....putting it that? "What's your excuse private Pile? Now drop and give me twenty!!!!" LOL ( a little humor and self defamation there lol....I am making fun of myself here in case you didn't get the reference?? lol )
But when I looked up Pet Peeve in the dictionary...it has a subcategory being defined as being "Needful"...and "nod-crafty" and I went ....that is too damn funny for words. "Nod -crafty"??? That sounds like Elaine on Seinfeld in the "Sponge Worthy" episode!!! LOL In context....I get the "crafty" part because you have to be pretty "crafty" indeed to try and pull that one off and get anyone to believe you!!! LOL
There was a link to an article in relationship to "pet peeves" that I thought was really great in explaining this and put this into the same context that we are talking about...very well I think? I'll include it which it explains this better than I can?
Before I forget....the definition of "pet peeve".......
PET PEEVE:
"a frequent subject of complaint " You can say that again!!! oops....that sounds like I'm complaining?? Who me complain??? LOL
"What are you so angry about?" Watch and listen here>>https://youtu.be/h0BWxrXdhAY
"Nod-crafty" ( or "sponge worthy?? " LOL ) http://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/ten-common-grammar-peeves
J
In Light of this Topic and the Election ?
Submitted by kellyj on
As I sat there...and watched what happened right after Trump was found to be the winner of the Presidential "race " ( first thing almost immediately!!! )........
The first initial reaction on the news at least ( and within those who were commenting ).....the first thing "those" who were involved or invested in this...was what was most telling here?
On the Trump side of things.....you had large groups of people chanting " Lock her up...Lock her up...Lock her up!!!!"
And on the Hillary side of things....you had literally hundreds upon hundreds of people in L.A. .....marching and protesting by "blocking the freeway" right in the middle of L.A....and chanting and protesting and literally....drawing attention to themselves and their outcry of being disappointed that their candidate ( or "their" party ) didn't win?
And here am I going..."Okay....so there's this guy ( I'm sure of this much )...sitting in his 18 wheel semi truck...who's got to get from LA to Arkansas by noon tomorrow...and the frick'in freeway is being blocked by a bunch of "numb-skulls"...are out there protesting ( and acting like a bunch of children who didn't ge their way" and having a tantrum with this attention seeking behavior that's only purpose...is to basically say.....I'm unhappy that my party and candidate "lost"...so I'm going to throw a hissy and block the frick'in freeway so other people can't drive on it and get on with their lives.... (unlike them ). And this guy ....who ever he was who was trying to do his job...so he can paid and feed his family....is sitting there stuck on the freeway in his huge truck full of "goods"...who can't do this now...because these children are acting out and throwing a tantrum?
And on the flip side to this......you've got the counter parts to these "child like people"....chanting "Lock her up!!! Lock her up!!!!!"....and in the same vain....are angry because they won?? LOL Their party and candidate....just won....but the response is about "Hillary" and they are still angry at her for what? Running in a race....and she lost? It's like the epitome of ignorance and child like behavior and really really poor sportsmanship? Like sticking their tongue out at the loser for going against "them". Nay Nonnie Nay Naw!!!!! ( thhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!! wet tongue out slobbering everywhere ) Lock her up!! Lock here up!!!!!....all pissed off and incensed and self righteous as all get out? And they "won"....for crying out loud? Nothing like....rubbing a persons face in it...and spitting on them for even "thinking about it" ...or anything different than "ME"? ( "Thhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh" !!!!! )
I literally was thinking....."Wow.....it doesn't get any worse than that ...even for a 3 year old but these people weren't 3 years old...and all dressed up in suits and ties and were appearing ( at least in appearance?? ) to be at least 21 years old? At least....but more like in their 40's for the most part at least as a "mean" or average age? Talk about poor sportsmanship....reprehensible child like attention seeking behavior and acting out and looking really really bad in the process...and kind of making a fool of themselves in the name of "freedom of speech" if you look agt it that way?
And not to say that I haven;t done that myself in my own right....but what I haven't done is gets dressed up....go to the trouble of making a sign....get in my car and drive across town or tp were ever they were ( on either side )...and get on television to make a fool of myself and "protest" angrily.....that I didn't get my way and immediately point my finger and stand there and yell...."lock her up!!!"....or........"Down with Trump"......and throwing "turd balls" at each other.......after the frick'en "race" is over??? Na Nonnie Nay Naw!!!! Thhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!! Take that M%$^&R F*&#er!!!
It's the equivalent of me going to see a movie and paying my money and sit there with a large tub of popcorn and my coke in hand...all ready to see a good movie....and then the "movie sucks" and I get angry....but then I won't leave the theater and start hurling popcorn and drinks on the screen and making a mess ( and having a tantrum in the theater ) as if it's the screens fault? Or the employees who work in the theater who are trying to go home but can't because I'm refusing to leave since....because I'm unhappy that I got paid money to see a bad movie that I didn't like....so now somebody got to pay???
And what's so funny about this even more? As I watched the news people ( the talking heads reporting on this )......one of them immediately..... got all huffy and self righteous and started attacking Hillary...for not conceding her loss in like the first 2 minutes ( just jumping all over her and saying she was being a really poor sport LOL )...and going off and how this would have been so not acceptable if Trump had done that and he would have been "villain-ized" for doing it...and now this just "proves"...what a lying "sack of shit"....Hillary is? ( he didn't say that but basically in a nut shell...this was what he was saying? )
And all of this happened in like the first five minutes and caused yet...another angry debate over THIS.......and in the mean time.....the "race is over" ??? GO HOME!!!! Jesus H Christ!!! lol
And so ironically in the midst of this angry back and forth "turd fight" like a bunch of spoiled kids.......within about 10 to 15 minutes in....."Breaking news!!!! Hillary...just called Donald Trump and conceded the win to him on the phone personally."
"Oh.....never mind." LOL The hypocrisy...is mind blowing!!! LOL In my mind...what we saw ......( as a group at least in just the ones that we saw on TV ) were a bunch of victims..with victim mentality. No grace, no humor, no good "sportsmanship" or "womanship" lol ) and a bunch of babies who didn't who get their way on one side...and who "did" on the other side....who are just addicted to arguing more than anything else...and "acting out" like 3 year old live on TV ( even more embarrassing ) ......were causing more harm than good and making it all about themselves amd getting a lot of attention in the process?
And justifying this as being....."part of the process". Not so much.....once the "race is over".....it's time to go home ....or ( turn off the TV like I did and go to bed after hearing Trumps acceptance speech ) because the race and fighting that was appropriate...is no longer appropriate and those saying that.....needed to grow up. Shows over folks....time to leave the theater and stop hurling popcorn and soda at the screen...and stop complaining when the screen is "blank" and there's nothing on it anymore?
As was said by Mark Twain as I recall....."The intelligence of the average American....will never be under estimated." That may be a gross overstatement....but I think I get his point...and it's not the one on the top of my head either??? LOL
https://youtu.be/rW8fDw8VzKI
https://youtu.be/KoSu6AUC-7k more humor
J