Hi, I'm new to both the wonderful website and this blog. Within 5 minutes of exploring the internet, I came to ADHD and Marriage...and I'm so glad I did. Both my husband and my stepson have ADHD. My stepson lives both at our house and his mom's and at 18 is displaying less of the ADHD symptoms; however, when he lived with us full time, the fights and drama between him and his dad (my husband) were out of control, so although I do miss my stepson not being with us all the time, I don't miss the fighting. However, the reason I'm on this blog, is that I'm finding it so difficult living with my husband. He is a surfer, which in many ways is his therapy and I understand that, without surfing, I would have left a long time ago. However, that is all his life..he gets up at 4.30 and surfs, no work on the house, no help, just an obsession with surfing. Our son's room and garage are places full to the brim with rubbish of my husband's. I can't control these areas, so shut the doors and ignore them. My husband is a hoarder and says so himself. But even though the mess and hoarding is something I can work with, although frustrating, I'm finding his moods and outbursts distressing. We have been married for 12 years and together for 16. It has never been smooth between us and to be honest I initiate most things, dates, trips, outings and sex. My husband is a charming man, can be funny and charismatic. However when he is feeling overwhelmed, which frequently happens (daily) he begins shouting, swearing and even blaming other people, for something which he has broken himself. I love my husband, but after years of this behavior, I'm feeling despondent and thinking I'm a fool to continue. I'm trying to not take this personally, but it's becoming increasingly difficult. We have a 10 year old daughter and the strain is also affecting her. I've tried a variety of methods, mainly calm, but after a while it is frustrating. He appears in a constant state of anxiety or panic. He has never taken medication and never sought help, but I'm at my wits end. When I talk with him calmly about his outbursts he starts getting agitated saying he has to rush, have a shower, eat, surf...never staying still for minutes at a time until he has exhausted himself to the point where he collapses and goes to bed. I'm torn between being sympathetic and trying to understand ADHD, and feeling hurt (at his inappropriateness in public, control over many situations and backtracking after lying) and resentful for putting so much effort into the relationship. I wish my husband well, but don't see how to continue. My energies should be on my daughter (and stepson). Thank you to this website and all those who contribute. I didn't feel alone this morning and reading your blogs has helped me understand some more about this condition. 

Today was a weird day.  I woke up, and a sadness just hit me like a ton of bricks.  Everything was slow to start, even my normal happiness about my job didnt get my motivation going.  I had so much to do today, and I just could not focus or think straight.  All that I worked on was running late - even breakfast.  Then my cousin showed up around 10 and it was a total surprise to see her!  I guess she thought I was murdered since I didnt return a text from last night or this morning (I was on calls all morning so I didnt even have a chance LOL).  So she comes over, and we got to talking.  And she starts telling me how her husband loves me to death, and was so excited about seeing my "big change"... She told me that he was telling all his friends at his birthday party how his cousin (me) was shedding my old skin, and turning into a butterfly.  That I had my shit together like no one else, and once I could push through all this mess that I was going to metamorphisis into an amazing butterfly and fly anywhere I wanted.  Man...  that just hit me in the heart so hard.  I didnt think that he even gave me a second thought when I wasnt in his presence... it taught me a pretty hard core lesson that I needed to learn.  Just because my husband doesnt SEE me, doesnt mean that others are BLIND to me.  WHAT and amazing feeling.... and then it made me cry because it hit me that I wanted my husband to SEE me in the same way. 

I have been working very hard to become a better me.  Exercising when I dont want to, eating foods I would rather not because its better for me.  Trying to regain my own self control, and not let my husbands struggles define me.  I have taken back the control he exerted on me with his threats of leaving.  I am no longer letting him tear me down like that anymore.  I am not good enough for him.  Ok - no problem.  He can go find better  - what ever that might be.  Because I deserve more, and I am not ever going to live like I did for the past 7 years again. NO MORE.

While its liberating, its also depressing... I have to mourn all the things I wanted to do with him.  But I realized... those very same things can be AMAZING even with out him.  I cannot wait to go to a camping event, and have the whole tent to myself!  I can set up my own little camp bathroom!!!! (this is such a luxury you have NO idea.. LOL - I am actually GIDDY thinking about it!).  I will attend these glorious medieval events, and spend time with old friends and make new ones.  I will have a blast going to parties.  I even have a new event on FB for January for having a "Hobbit Party" with some friends.  October is booking up quick!  The great thing is - people understand where I am at (with my dog) and know that right now I wont leave/travel etc... but including me in plans for the future?  Well - that is encouraging!  That is giving me a new hope!  (and I dont even have Obi Wan Kenobi to help me here LOL).

For a treat - these are the events I am talking about - short but AWESOME!  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efYwxs1VtCs

On top of all that - I was SO not motivated to do my work out today.  Even went as far as to see if splitting up the cardio was a good idea (turns out that can be very effective - but thats not why I was looking).  But I sucked it up and got on there.  And I went even HARDER than I have in a long time.  I did some interval training, at different intensity levels - doing 5 minutes at level 6 which is a HUGE deal for me (on my elliptical).  I went from being unmotivated, to kicking ASS today.

AND THEN... I watched the most amazing documentary on World of Warcraft ... Its called /afk Away From Keyboard.  I swear, EVERYONE should watch it who has a gamer in their life.  It really was eye opening and insightful.  I didnt think I would like it - but really, its given me a whole different perspective about things and I am so glad of it!  
 

If you struggle with video games, I totally recommend this video - it seriously was helpful to me:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mae1Dhz_Ufg

My motto for months now has been "He is leaving, and I am OK"... and for a while there, it was REALLY hard to be OK.  I think maybe I needed a reminder of how much more my life can be (with or with out him).  All I have to do is CHOOSE IT.

The other day when my wife and I went to therapy together...my wife asked him straight up if he thought she had ADHD? What my therapist said was interesting. I've been seeing him for nearly 17 years now and he rarely diagnosis. It took 5 years of seeing him before ADHD even become a topic of discussion so it was interesting from my perspective...to hear him answer this for my wife now? As he said (paraphrasing here as close as possible ) "The problem with diagnosing something like this...has to do with the environment in which you put that into context in. The same person...put into a different situation and a different environment is going to behave and act differently. To start with using ADHD here for example...is that all of these behaviors are common ones that everyone shares...and for the most part, men with ADHD behave like all men and are no different. Most of these are the same problems that you run into with people without ADHD but it just acts as way of amplifying or bringing out certain behaviors more than others but at the same time.....are stereotypical "male" behaviors none the less. And the same applies to women with ADHD. Women with ADHD do not act ....differently than all women so ADHD is not the reason for the differences here. It's just a contributing factor to the same problems but maybe only amplified a little."

This now makes perfect sense to me and why I was not really seeing the ADHD in my wife since she does not act or do what I do at all? In fact....messiness around the house and picking up after herself is not even on the radar with her. In fact...it's the extreme opposite of this and when I say extreme...it's what I believe that my T was saying. Exactly. In any relationship I've ever been in with a woman and living together....my wife is stereo typically "female" in the things she wants and needs and how she acts or behaves. The things that are most important to her...are no different. And the things that are important to me and not her fall into the same range or categories across the board. They same conflict areas I've ever experienced before which for me.....involves the same old song and dance and the same story behind it. Chore wars, division of labor and how we do things differently...and who's priorities are "screwed up"....is dependent on who's the one saying these things. Neither is feeling disrespected or being angry about these things anything new or specific to ADHD.

The biggest problem I see and the one that gets to becoming dysfunctional in a relationship has to do with the pattern of failure and why this happens in terms of ADHD. And as far as lowest common denominators goes....the main culprit is Trust. Being able to trust...and having faith in someone...is at the bottom of getting right down to this "pattern of failure" that I am now beginning to see pretty clearly. Not just with my wife but now....everywhere I look on this forum? And the reasons for this are stereotypical to each gender and how these two play off of each other especially if the "MAN" has it.;.;...even if the woman does too? Even if each person has their own particular brand of "self fulfilling patterns of failure"....the two together combined is the one my T.....as he was saying......"is what I'm most interested in and finding ways to correct pattern for both people together...not just for one of them." I have to whole hardheartedly agree now as I sit and think about this more. Part of my wife inability to see herself and what she does sometimes is not different than most women or even how she thinks about things and what she really wants? What she can't see is how she is so narrowly focused on these same things and this is where it gets into trouble.

What this is....is a "pattern of thinking gone bad" and then not seeing out of it or seeing it any differently. What needs to change is the "thinking itself". That's the problem right there if nothing happens to change it and it continues on uninterrupted. As my T said it to us the other day...as he said it..." I'm not really all that interested in the details within the stories I hear. They're the same stories and I've heard them a thousand times and everyone couple who walks into my office has approximately the same stories about many different topics and subjects you can name. The one thing that is consistent no matter what context you put it into ,...is the "pattern of failure" within the "thinking" itself and both people together (male and female) have their own part to play in this As I just read on comment that was recently made by a woman who does not have ADHD....I saw it clearly and went WOW....there it is again. I can see it as an observer....much easier than I can see it in myself or in our relationship until only recently which is why I am making this post. I don't want to single anyone out here so I'll leave the person who said it out of the picture. If you recognize the comment or know who it was coming from.....as I'm saying this...it makes no difference who said....which context....or who is "right and wrong" here because none of this applies or is even relevant. There is no...."good side" to be on within this pattern of failure itself. The reason for this is because it's a recipe for disaster in terms of a failure....not on either side or who here....but in the big picture and for the relationship itself. It's what you put into it that matters and that's all you are responsible for. The rest will take care of itself unless you do something to change the pattern and do something different. That's all you need to know and that's all you can do but not seeing the pattern as a problem is primary reason it exists and no one is able to see why their own behavior...is 1/2 the reason and 1/2 the problem in itself.

The Pattern of Failure: Fear, Trust, Permission, Allowing, and Unilateral Decision Making ie: " I am the Decider"

"My husband and I bicker a lot about his driving. He doesn't have a record of tickets or accidents, so that gives him a false sense of being "in control". I "broke off" our engagement temporarily because out of anger, he slammed on the breaks in the middle of an intersection after I yelled at him for speeding up to keep someone from cutting him off, almost colliding with the car and forcing us off the road. When I threw the ring into his cup holder, I think he finally got the point. He acknowledges now that ADHD has an effect on driving, makes him more impulsive and aggressive, and has done some reading/research on it." Facts of evidence: - He doesn't have a record or tickets or accidents - he slammed on the breaks in the middle of an intersection after I yelled at him - for speeding up to keep someone from cutting him off, almost colliding with the car and forcing us off the road. (almost...as in horse shoes and hand-grenades..doesn't count as an accident) - I threw the ring into his cup holder, - I "broke off" our engagement temporarily

How you get from A to Z here has everything to do with this. Continuing on here....

Assumptions, Justifications and Conclusions:

- so that gives him a false sense of being "in control".

- almost colliding with the car and forcing us off the road. (almost...as in horse shoes and hand-grenades doesn't count as an accident)

- because out of anger, he slammed on the breaks in the middle of an intersection after - I think he finally got the point. - ADHD has an effect on driving "Has"....a fatal flaw in thinking here. Not just semantics but more Freudian in Nature

- makes him more impulsive and aggressive "Makes" another fatal flaw in thinking here "ditto"

- and has done some reading/research on it."

Cause and Effect...in chronological order as it has to be in the physical world. Nothing physical...can happen out of time in order of chronology

" I yelled at him, for speeding up to keep someone from cutting him off.... and out of anger, he slammed on the breaks in the middle of an intersection. I threw the ring into his cup holder, and I "broke off" our engagement temporarily ...... I think he finally got the point."

Not withstanding any other validity test you can put onto this situation and forgetting about any speculations, assumption, conclusions or anything from the past being brought in here.....AT FACE value. Here's my take on this and what really happening in light of everything that's been said and applying it to the "thinking and pattern of failure" and coming from being in the exact same position in my past and why I would have done what this husband did and the possible reason why?

Case in Point

I think he finally got the point?

What is the point here and what did he get?  He was making a point....and then so did she. He slammed the breaks on to make a point. He didn't do it because he was out of control even if it was because of his unbridled anger and aggressive behavior stemming from ADHD. Been there....done that. And why? For being yelled at while I'm trying to drive.

Nothing is more distracting than a back seat driver who is making commentary about your driving and giving "helpful directions and advise" during the process. My mother was relentless in doing this and it drove me to absolute madnss with her when ever she would do it which was every time you drove with her in the car with you. I "slammed" by breaks on in several occasions with her and gave her an ultimatum. (so did my father for the same reason.  (not saying this is good...just the reason for it in terms of cause and effect)

Either she shut up and leave the driving to me...or.... get out of the car....take you pick? (and opening her side door and pointing OUT at the same time)

She'd do the same thing when I was working with a power saw and come up behind me and go "oh!!! Be careful"....which started me and nearly caused me to cut my own finger off and I promptly took her by the arm and escorted her back inside the house for doing this. I could have lost my finger....out of her "FEAR" that I MIGHT cut it off unless she said something. The very fear that I might do something.....actually ALMOST caused it to happen? The point of me bringing this to the attention of this situation was this very thing stated here....." almost colliding with the car and forcing us off the road." I have no idea what really happened here and if....."almost colliding with the car."....and "forcing us off the road" really means?

I can imagine a number of different scenarios and that could be interpreted different ways. What is most important and the only thing that matters here is....how she interpreted this which is where she is making her claims and drawing all of her conclusions from.

In terms of "control" ...only ONE person can control an motor vehicle at a time. Back seat drivers are not only a hindrance...but a danger because the act of back seat driving....gives no control to the back seat driver who is feeling out of control...but it diminishes the attention and the ability to focus on the only one who has any control of the vehicle. The same as when my mother use to do this...which almost caused on accident on several occasions because she startled me so bad and made me second guess what I was doing that she caused me to look away for a moment and that moment was when a car was coming that I missed seeing because of her not because of my driving ability. Her own inability to trust out of her own fear and inability to drive a motor vehicle very well....brought her to a feeling of being out of control when ever she was not the one driving as poorly as she was herself at doing this for all reason there were.   Having to sit quietly and just let the driver do their job was not something she was able to do. She was so worried about what she was worried about....that she caused the driver to worry about what she was worried about...and not paying attention to what you needed to worry about ie: controlling the vehicle and not running into anything? To have an accident...you actually have to make contact. No contact. No accident.

My mother was so afraid of an accident that might happen....she was neglecting to understand that what might be...will be if you are the cause of this yourself?

This reminds me of one time I got re-ended by a driver who was following too close to me. But the reason the accident happened in the first place was do to one of those "do gooder" drivers up ahead of me who "stopped" in the middle of the road...to let someone cross where there was no intersection or cross walk. This is one of the most dangerous maneuvers anyone can possible do. When you aren't ready or expecting someone to just stop in the middle of the road....it makes no difference "why" they did it. What they did was just up and stop with no warning or no way of predicting ahead of time that they just "happened to decide" and made a unilateral decision to do this without warning...to let someone standing on the side of the road cross....as if....this is helping anyone? All the person waiting to cross has to do is just wait for the cars to go by and walk across like a normal person. They need no other help than this and any child can do this on there own. The "do gooder" who thinks this is serving some kind of purpose is acting recklessly and flagrantly with no regard for the people behind them and without warning and which is completely random and unpredictable. At the end of the day....it caused me to be run into and the car behind to doing it. The "do gooder" drove off unscathed and oblivious to the problems and the accident they THEY created by doing this. In essence...they made an an emergency "stop"...when there was no emergency and no sign of one anywhere that anyone else behind them can see. I saw the person standing on the side of the road too.....I didn't expect the person in front of me to suddenly "stop"...in the middle of a busy street to let this person cross?

The failure was the person who "stopped"...not as much the person behind me who now had to make an emergency stop and was too close and not prepared. And very much like this same pattern of failure......fear, surprise or being startled, misinterpretation, assumption, and no communication are the reason why this happens. Making a point...in a way to communicate directly to someone where directness's is a necessity is like communicating in sign language and hoping the other person understands sign language. And if they don't....I'm pretty sure they do not get the point if that's what happening?

I just wanted to end this with a comment about driving and safety in concerned. I ride a motorcycle and I've been riding since I was a teenager (for over 40 years ) off and on at different times in my life. I have never been down or had an accident or been injured but there is a good reason for this all said and done. People are in denial or have this illusion that a thin piece of sheet metal and some foam and a little upholstery is going to stop and 2 ton vehicle from injuring you if they run into at 60 miles an hour. There is a false sense of security that you get when you feel comfortable and like you are sitting in your living room inside a car. Try jumping on a motorcycle and watch how vulnerable you know become feeling completely exposed and without that thin piece of sheet metal there that somehow makes you feel safe? The ope rant word here is "vulnerability". When someone else is driving the car and you are riding...they are in control and you feel more vulnerable.

Vulnerability in itself...does not cause you do do anything. What causes you to do "something" is the fear of feeling out of control and vulnerable and this is no different when you ride a motorcycle with cars and trucks on the road with you. No matter who is at fault or who's to blame if there is an accident.....you will be on the losing end of the stick guaranteed and you will most likely die as a high probability. The only thing that will keep you alive...is your ability to think on your feet and do evasive maneuvers and your skill in controlling the motorcycle.

When I drive my bike in traffic. All rules and laws pretty much fly out the window. I do what I have to do...to stay ahead of traffic and not get sandwiched or caught in a scenario with no escape. I will speed...I will dart....i will even drive off the road on the shoulder if I have to ...in order to keep cars away from me and for me to be on top of what is happening. In the very essence of this....you drive more aggressively not less aggressively in order to do this and what ever is required to do it is what you do. I ride...as if I'm invisible to everyone and make the assumption that no one see;'s me as if....I'm invisible. If you are invisible....then you do not count on or trust...that anyone will see you. You do what you have to stay alive and I've done some pretty major traffic violations in terms of tickets or otherwise in order to stay that way. If I hadn't done this in order to stay alive and just drove as if I was in a car....I would be dead right now for absolutely 100% positive. By not following anyone and being behind them...and staying out in front of everyone with as much space between me and the nearest car or truck...I ensure I am in complete control of the situation by doing what I need to to stay this way.

This is not in any  rule book or driving manual and there are times I violate those laws in order to stay alive. This means speeding on occasion and jumping through holes in traffic to gain the advantage and keep it that way. This may look like someone being reckless but just the opposite is true. But the first order of business to ensure you can even do this....is being really good and "jousting traffic" and maintaining control of you bike. The illusion of safety and control is only in appearance....the reality of staying alive and paying attention becomes an entirely different thing with a different interpretation when you life...is actually on the line and you realize the fallacy of that thin piece of sheet metal and thinking all you have to do is just follow the rules and you'll be safe?

One of the wisest and most profound things my father ever told me (he was a phenomenal driver and had amazing skills in controlling a motor vehicle ) "it doesn't matter whose fault it is....when your dead."

Putting that in terms of this idea of "pattern of failure in thinking" and why this happens....I think my father was on to something that had to do more than with just not getting killed on the highway? For what it's worth?

J

My mother in law and step daughter came down for the weekend, and it was awesome to see them.  I am SUPER lucky in that I adore my Mother in Law... like for real.  She is a total soul mate :-D.  I often joke that I married my husband just to have her and my step daughter in my life, and that is not far from the truth.

This weekend was nice, we had some long talks.  She knows where things are between us, as I have talked to her before and she knows everything going on.  It was so good to have her validate things for me, and made me feel that things will be OK with us, even though my marriage to her son is ending.  She knows that I truly love him, and knows that the things he thinks (like I am controlling him, that he is broken etc) arent true.  She thinks he is going to have to really hit bottom before he wakes up and finally decides - if he ever DOES decide to take control of his life and ownership of his future. 

She asked me an interesting question.  She asked me - what would a "perfect" *husband's name* be like. 

I thought about it for a bit, I ran through my mind everything thing that bothered me, what i can live with, what I couldnt etc.  And it all boiled down to one, single, critical thing. 

*****My perfect *husband's name* would not threaten me with leaving every time there was a crisis, a fight, a disagreement etc.  He stand up, be a grown man and be able to have conflict, talk to me, work on things WITH me, and NOT run out and away every time. *****

Thats is.  Thats all I would change.  (other than changing what happened to him - and she said with out being able to change the past :-)  Because if I could, I would alter his whole life, and remove all the bad things that happened to him.  I would give everthing I have and give everything I am if I could do that.  Sad thing is - he CAN wipe it out, but it will take work and he is essentially afraid to do it).

My husband and I are perfect for eachother.  We have very specific hobbies that if you arent into it - then it certainly can cause a problem.  We share the same love of Sci-Fi/Action etc, and the same dislikes of so many things.  We have the same taste in movies and in most music.  We have the same political ideals, and the same ideas about money (even though he doesnt know how to MANAGE money and how to reach them, he agrees with me on financial goals etc).  He loves animals like I do, we have fun together.  We appreciate the same kind of humor.  There is NOTHING I would change about his personality (the real him, not the mask he puts on when he withdraws).  He is funny, kind, brave, strong, gentle, loving, sweet, thoughtful, considerate, honest, and helpful.  The kind of person I try to be.  He is not violent, he is not a whiner, he is UNBELIEVABLY smart... his intelligence is staggering.  We can talk about everything from what a Roman soldier wore in 350 AD Britain to the current theories in physics and latest scientific discoveries.  We can laugh at silly youtube videos together and think an ideal way to spend the day is laying on the beach with a Coronoa.  We both want to go to the same events, and we are different enough to keep things interesting.  He loves football - I dont, but I have fun watching a game with him because HE has fun.  I enjoy going to the opera, and while we havent gone together - he says he would like to.  I brought certain types of music to his life, he brough certain types of music to my life.  To my eyes - who he really is  - is nothing short of perfect. 

Every single thing else is something we could face together - any problems and issues which in the big picture - is minimal...  Our disagreements are pretty small when they arent related to him completely flipping out and wanting to run away.  We faced some major stuff early on, and came out together in the end.  There are problems he has, and problems *I* have as well - but nothing that we could not work together to resolve as long as we did it with honesty, respect and with out threats.

Every single issue that I have regarding him is rooted in not being able to trust him to be there for me.  I am not afraid of his ADHD quirks, I am not afraid of the lack of intimacy and struggles that his CSA causes (even untreated, because he will work on recovery when he is ready).  NONE of that scares me, or makes me want to leave him.  That constant threat of leaving me is literally the ONLY REASON I cannot fight any more for my marriage.  He says he feels controlled - but he is the one doing the controlling.  NO MORE though... NO MORE.

But those threats... when he said "I only want to be married when I am in a good mood"..... that was a threat of control, a threat of abandonment if he didnt get what he wants.  That was him telling me that I will NEVER be good enough and worth it to him, because I cannot be responsible or control his happiness - only he can, and he refuses to do what it takes to become a truly happy person. 

So I told her, and I think she saw all the pain in that for me.  Abandonment is where my hurt is.  That is the absolute, biggest fear I have in my life.  I was neglected and abandoned when I was a kid, I was by those who said they were my friends, by so many and it really affected me - which is why I have worked hard in therapy to get past those fears and work on trusting him to be there.  And I did it.  I put my trust and faith into that, and he destroyed it with that phrase.  I think I really thought that we would get through anything if we stuck together.  I mean, I still believe that.  But my faith that he wont abandon me is gone.  And it would take a miracle for me to believe in him again.

This isnt an anger post or a frustration post - just a sad post.  I am sad that I finally found it in me to believe, to have faith.  He looked me right in the eyes last year - said no matter what, our future was together.  He said he KNEW it would be hard, and that he would be scared and that there would be times we didnt like eachother and he made me promise that I would never threaten to leave when we fought.  (even though I have NOT done that, I have only acquiesced to his demands that HE wanted to leave).  And then as soon as a crisis comes, he is running out the door again.  I am sad that the first test of his loyalty, and of that faith he was supposed to have in ME he threw me away.

Have any of you experienced this?  The constant threat of "I am leaving you" when things get hard?